Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID Foundations, 18 (video): Dr Stephen Meyer of Discovery Institute presents the case for Intelligent Design (with particular reference to OoL)

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Here, HT WK:

[youtube NbluTDb1Nfs]

Take an hour and a half to learn what ID is about (yes, what it is really about [and cf. here at UD for correctives to common strawman distortions . . . ]), with particular focus on the origin of cell based life [OoL], through watching a public presentation in the UK from a leading ID thinker, Stephen Meyer.

Notice the distinction he underscores relative to the common demonising rhetorical projection of “Right-wing Fundamentalist theocratic agendas” etc.

I clip from the video:

Meyer’s summary of the design inference

Let me also draw in the design inference explanatory filter considered on a per aspect basis, as was presented in the very first post in the ID Foundations series:

The per aspect explanatory filter that shows how design may be inferred on empirically tested, reliable sign
The per aspect explanatory filter that shows how design may be inferred on empirically tested, reliable sign

(NB: Observe Meyer here, on ID’s scientific bona fides.)

It is probably also helpful to add the following, from a reply by Meyer to a hostile review of his book, Signature in the Cell. (It seems that things have got worse over the past few years, we used to have no-views — hostile pretended “reviews” of books not read — now we have hostile no-views of books not yet published.)

Clipping:

The central argument of my book is that intelligent design—the activity of a conscious and rational deliberative agent—best explains the origin of the information necessary to produce the first living cell. I argue this because of two things that we know from our uniform and repeated experience, which following Charles Darwin I take to be the basis of all scientific reasoning about the past. First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of  functionally specified information (especially in a digital form). [–> Notice the usage] Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power. Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals. In other words, intelligent design is the only explanation that cites a cause known to have the capacity to produce the key effect in question . . . .  In order to [[scientifically refute this inductive conclusion]  Falk would need to show that some undirected material cause has [[empirically] demonstrated the power to produce functional biological information apart from the guidance or activity a designing mind. Neither Falk [[the hostile reviewer], nor anyone working in origin-of-life biology, has succeeded in doing this . . .

Food for thought.

Foundational. END

Comments
One last thing Nick, Dr Meyer is saying the following in his book in case you did not actually read it or still don't understand it. FUNCTIONAL INFORMATION like this post from me to you, building instructions, Network diagrams, Invoices, Information in DNA, statements, books, flow diagrams, comics, brochures, software code, sticky notes on the fridge saying your lunch is in the fridge are all examples of functional information. He is saying that this kind of information only comes from intelligence (a mind). Can you show any other process other than a mind being capable of creating anything above? So to conclude What Dr Meyer is arguing for is that functional information does not create itself, you would have to believe in miracles then. Do you believe in Miracles Nick?Andre
April 21, 2013
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And what we are asking you for is to show that random mutations can in fact create functional new information.... not gobbeldy goog type insertions, deletions or copies. These mutations don't create new function they kill us and it is called cancer and diseases. Just the other day I hear a Darwinist like you telling me about the benefits of sickle cell disease being an excellent example of a good mutation. Since when is stuff killing you beneficial Nick? People get sick and die from mutations Nick! SHOW us how random mutations can create new FUNCTIONAL NOVEL information that change body plans, hearts, lungs sexual reproductive systems, wings, tails, gills, etc. Can you do that Nick? Where is the absolute evidence that a fruit fly became a not so fruity fly? A Bacteria to anything else? Any examples? Please show them I beg you!Andre
April 21, 2013
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Nick Please can you explain to me how what Meyer said is a show stopper? I'm trying my best to see it from your point of view and I'm obviously missing it? Are you saying that evolution created life? You have clearly missed the mark and your post reminds me of those angry atheists that love quote mining the bible to prove a point that does not even exists. What did Dr Meyer say? "In the passage quoted above, Meyer makes it excruciatingly clear that in Signature in the Cell he is explicitly restricting his thesis to the origin of the information in the first forms of life -- and that in this book he is "not principally concerned" with biological evolution. Signature does very briefly discuss biological evolution in an appendix--and it is this appendix which serves as the primary section Venema cites for justifying why he he's talking about biological evolution. But even there Meyer leaves no grounds for doubt that this is separate from his book's basic thesis. Despite Meyer's patient elaboration on this point, Venema's surrebuttal to Meyer asserts that "the basic argument of Signature requires that biological evolution be incapable of generating new information." But that is not the "basic argument" of Signature in the Cell, as we saw above. Meyer's "basic argument" is restricted to the origin of life, not the diversification of life through Darwinian evolution. Venema seems intent on reviewing the appendix to Signature in the Cell, rather than the book itself." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/10/responding_to_venemas_response052061.html Sigh....Andre
April 21, 2013
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Hi Nick, Prof Tour wants to read a book on Macro-Evolutionaty Theory. What book would you recommend?Mung
April 21, 2013
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This passage from Meyer was brought up as a counterargument:
Since I was not principally concerned with whether biological evolution could generate specified information, I decided to formulate a “conservative” conservation law — one that applied only to a nonbiological context (and thus not to any information-rich initial state). My statement of the law does not say anything about whether undirected natural processes could produce an increase in specified information starting with preexisting forms of life. But it does encapsulate what repeated experience had demonstrated about the flow of information starting from chemistry and physics alone. Here’s my version of the law of conservation of information: “In a nonbiological context, the amount of specified information initially present in a system, S, will generally equal or exceed the specified information content of the final system, Sf. (Meyer, Signature, p. 293, emphases added)
But it's from almost the end of the book! After hundreds of pages of Meyer arguing that he has a POSITIVE argument for intelligence being the cause of the OOL, namely that intelligence is the unique and only source of information, and that the inference to intelligent design is thus just an application of uniformitarian reasoning, he slips this in late in the game, and then ignores it for the rest of his argument and for basically all of the "Signature in Cell" promotional material, essays, etc., until the critics pointed out the huge exception to the "information only comes from intelligence" and "conservation of information" claims. I'm just interested in what Meyer will do with the Cambrian Explosion, where he probably will want to make the same argument -- new information can only come from intelligence -- but he will have no way at all to avoid dealing with the massive amount of evidence that regular natural processes can and have increased information in genomes. But, avoid it he will, or he will have to give up the "conservation of information" argument, and admit that information, at least sometimes, has nonintelligent sources.NickMatzke_UD
April 21, 2013
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Hi Nick, What's you're favorite textbook on "Macro-Evolutionary Theory?"Mung
April 21, 2013
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franklin:
Why don’t you just go back to wherever you’ve posed your question and see what, and who, provided you with the two references?
I've posted my question repeatedly. You've not provided references. Nick has not provided references. I can't see what does not exist.Mung
April 21, 2013
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I would love to see one particle of hard evidence that your so-called “normal processes” have ever produced one genuinely new gene (as opposed to a homolog generated by one or two point mutations), and more to the point, have ever produced a single novel biological body plan, organ, organ system, or process (such as blood clotting, sexual reproduction, or insect metamorphosis).
Homologs aren't new genes? You realize, don't you, that your various systems -- blood-clotting, flagellum, immune system, etc., are made up of parts which mostly or entirely consist of homologs to other parts within the system or with other systems of different functions?NickMatzke_UD
April 21, 2013
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mung: There’s no evidence they have been provided.
sure there is! I've told you so several times....that's evidence. Why don't you just go back to wherever you've posed your question and see what, and who, provided you with the two references? I think it is important that when you ask a question you follow up and see what people have provided in response.franklin
April 21, 2013
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franklin:
finishing #31……don’t you think that it is more important that the references have been provided rather than who provided them?
There's no evidence they have been provided. Don't you think that it's more important that you substantiate your assertions with evidence? I guess not.Mung
April 21, 2013
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Me: Were you the one who provided the citations? franklin: Why do you ask? *sigh* Because I'd like to be able to locate the citations. Is it really so freaking beyond your capacity to grasp that there are people who really do want to know the evidence? Do I search on "franklin" to find it, or do I search on "NickMatzke_UD" to find it, or should I just hold my breath and pray for a miracle? Who provided the citations you refer to and where did they do it?Mung
April 21, 2013
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finishing #31......don't you think that it is more important that the references have been provided rather than who provided them?franklin
April 21, 2013
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I wonder if by “chaos” Nick means the breakdown in reasoning that results from question begging.
Nick only questions Intelligent Design. If Nick questions his own "field" of "Macro-Evolutionary Theory" it's probably not been published.Mung
April 21, 2013
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mung: Were you the one who provided the citations?
Why do you ask?franklin
April 21, 2013
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franklin @28:
you’ve already been given two citations in answer to your request. I can’t but wonder why you continue with this charade?
Were you the one who provided the citations? franklin:
mung, you are correct. I did not supply any reference(s).
well, duh.Mung
April 21, 2013
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Nick Matzki, re. #4:
Please let us know when Meyer explains why the origin of new genes with new functions through normal processes of gene duplication, mutation, and natural selection doesn’t contradict his claim that the only way to get new information is through intelligent design.
I would love to see one particle of hard evidence that your so-called "normal processes" have ever produced one genuinely new gene (as opposed to a homolog generated by one or two point mutations), and more to the point, have ever produced a single novel biological body plan, organ, organ system, or process (such as blood clotting, sexual reproduction, or insect metamorphosis).Bruce David
April 21, 2013
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mung:Please let us know when there is textbook published in your alleged field of “Macro-Evolutionary Theory.”
you've already been given two citations in answer to your request. I can't but wonder why you continue with this charade?franklin
April 21, 2013
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Hi Nick, Please let us know when there is textbook published in your alleged field of "Macro-Evolutionary Theory."Mung
April 21, 2013
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Finding quantum information in life has been particularly exciting Mr. Matzke!
Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – Stuart Hameroff - video (notes in description) http://vimeo.com/29895068 Quantum Entangled Consciousness (Permanence/Conservation of Quantum Information)- Life After Death - Stuart Hameroff - video https://vimeo.com/39982578
Now Mr. Matzke, It would seem to me that any reasonable person would be open, even excited, to the implications of all this. I mean really Mr. Matzke, we have complexity upon complexity at such a extreme level that there is scant hope of us ever fully grasping its workings. As well, on top of all that, at the deepest levels of DNA (and proteins), we find 'transcendent' (non-local) quantum information/entanglement that finally gives us some fairly good 'scientific' evidence for a 'eternal soul'.,,, I don't know about you Mr. Matzke, but that prospect, the prospect that bodily death is not the end, is something that should elicit far more honesty on your part as to investigating these matters scientifically! ,,, If it is actually true that we do have a eternal soul, which I hold the evidence from physics, and personal testimony, to be strongly in favor of that position,,,
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species (or origin of life), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html A neurosurgeon confronts the non-material nature of consciousness - December 2011 Excerpted quote: To me one thing that has emerged from my experience and from very rigorous analysis of that experience over several years, talking it over with others that I respect in neuroscience, and really trying to come up with an answer, is that consciousness outside of the brain is a fact. It’s an established fact. And of course, that was a hard place for me to get, coming from being a card-toting reductive materialist over decades. It was very difficult to get to knowing that consciousness, that there’s a soul of us that is not dependent on the brain. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/he-said-it-a-neurosurgeon-confronts-the-non-material-nature-of-consciousness/ Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit Heaven Is Real: A Doctor’s Experience With the Afterlife - Dr. Eben Alexander - Oct 8, 2012 Excerpt: One of the few places I didn’t have trouble getting my story across was a place I’d seen fairly little of before my experience: church. The first time I entered a church after my coma, I saw everything with fresh eyes. The colors of the stained-glass windows recalled the luminous beauty of the landscapes I’d seen in the world above. The deep bass notes of the organ reminded me of how thoughts and emotions in that world are like waves that move through you. And, most important, a painting of Jesus breaking bread with his disciples evoked the message that lay at the very heart of my journey: that we are loved and accepted unconditionally by a God even more grand and unfathomably glorious than the one I’d learned of as a child in Sunday school.
Now this is great news Mr. Matzke! Thus why all the deception on your part? Given what I see to be your continually deceptive tactics to deny ID, I truly worry about your soul. About the closest I can get right now to warning someone in your position, as far as NDE's go, is this former atheist professor who had a glimpse of what was in store for him if he did not change his ways,,
video - Howard Storm continues to share his gripping story of his own near death experience. Today, he picks up just as Jesus was rescuing him from the horrors of Hell and carrying him into the glories of Heaven. http://www.daystar.com/ondemand/joni-heaven-howard-storm-j924/#.UKvFrYYsE31
Supplemental note:
Near-Death Experiences in Thailand - Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of 'going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm
Music and verse:
Andrew Peterson - You'll Find Your Way - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMn3ThuvGMo Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
bornagain77
April 21, 2013
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Mr. Matzke, I'm really curious as to why you fight so hard, with such weak evidence, against the Intelligent Design position. For crying out loud Mr. Matzke, researchers can't even model the SIMPLEST life on earth due to the extreme level of complexity they are dealing with,,,
To Model the Simplest Microbe in the World, You Need 128 Computers - July 2012 Excerpt: Mycoplasma genitalium has one of the smallest genomes of any free-living organism in the world, clocking in at a mere 525 genes. That's a fraction of the size of even another bacterium like E. coli, which has 4,288 genes.,,, The bioengineers, led by Stanford's Markus Covert, succeeded in modeling the bacterium, and published their work last week in the journal Cell. What's fascinating is how much horsepower they needed to partially simulate this simple organism. It took a cluster of 128 computers running for 9 to 10 hours to actually generate the data on the 25 categories of molecules that are involved in the cell's lifecycle processes.,,, ,,the depth and breadth of cellular complexity has turned out to be nearly unbelievable, and difficult to manage, even given Moore's Law. The M. genitalium model required 28 subsystems to be individually modeled and integrated, and many critics of the work have been complaining on Twitter that's only a fraction of what will eventually be required to consider the simulation realistic.,,, http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/07/to-model-the-simplest-microbe-in-the-world-you-need-128-computers/260198/
Shoot Mr. Matzke, there is scant hope of us ever fully grasping the overwhelming complexity in life,,,
"Complexity Brake" Defies Evolution - August 2012 Excerpt: "This is bad news. Consider a neuronal synapse -- the presynaptic terminal has an estimated 1000 distinct proteins. Fully analyzing their possible interactions would take about 2000 years. Or consider the task of fully characterizing the visual cortex of the mouse -- about 2 million neurons. Under the extreme assumption that the neurons in these systems can all interact with each other, analyzing the various combinations will take about 10 million years..., even though it is assumed that the underlying technology speeds up by an order of magnitude each year.",,, Even with shortcuts like averaging, "any possible technological advance is overwhelmed by the relentless growth of interactions among all components of the system," Koch said. "It is not feasible to understand evolved organisms by exhaustively cataloging all interactions in a comprehensive, bottom-up manner." He described the concept of the Complexity Brake:,,, "Allen and Greaves recently introduced the metaphor of a "complexity brake" for the observation that fields as diverse as neuroscience and cancer biology have proven resistant to facile predictions about imminent practical applications. Improved technologies for observing and probing biological systems has only led to discoveries of further levels of complexity that need to be dealt with. This process has not yet run its course. We are far away from understanding cell biology, genomes, or brains, and turning this understanding into practical knowledge.",,, Why can't we use the same principles that describe technological systems? Koch explained that in an airplane or computer, the parts are "purposefully built in such a manner to limit the interactions among the parts to a small number." The limited interactome of human-designed systems avoids the complexity brake. "None of this is true for nervous systems.",,, to read more go here: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/complexity_brak062961.html Systems biology: Untangling the protein web - July 2009 Excerpt: Vidal thinks that technological improvements — especially in nanotechnology, to generate more data, and microscopy, to explore interaction inside cells, along with increased computer power — are required to push systems biology forward. "Combine all this and you can start to think that maybe some of the information flow can be captured," he says. But when it comes to figuring out the best way to explore information flow in cells, Tyers jokes that it is like comparing different degrees of infinity. "The interesting point coming out of all these studies is how complex these systems are — the different feedback loops and how they cross-regulate each other and adapt to perturbations are only just becoming apparent," he says. "The simple pathway models are a gross oversimplification of what is actually happening." http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v460/n7253/full/460415a.html 3-D Structure Of Human Genome: Fractal Globule Architecture Packs Two Meters Of DNA Into Each Cell - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: the information density in the nucleus is trillions of times higher than on a computer chip -- while avoiding the knots and tangles that might interfere with the cell's ability to read its own genome. Moreover, the DNA can easily unfold and refold during gene activation, gene repression, and cell replication. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091008142957.htm
As if that was not humbling enough, they are still uncovering deeper and deeper levels of information in life Mr. Matzke!
Four More DNA Bases? - August 2011 Excerpt: As technology allows us to delve ever deeper into the inner workings of the cell, we continue to find layer-upon-layer of complexity. DNA, in particular, is an incredibly complex information-bearing molecule that bears the hallmarks of design. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/08/four_more_dna_bases049091.html DNA Caught Rock 'N Rollin': On Rare Occasions DNA Dances Itself Into a Different Shape - January 2011 Excerpt: Because critical interactions between DNA and proteins are thought to be directed by both the sequence of bases and the flexing of the molecule, these excited states represent a whole new level of information contained in the genetic code, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110128104244.htm Four-strand 'Quadruple helix' DNA structure found in cells. Unusual nucleic-acid structure may have role in regulating some genes. - Alison Abbott - 20 January 2013 - with picture http://www.nature.com/news/four-strand-dna-structure-found-in-cells-1.12253 Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA - Elisabeth Rieper - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ Quantum entanglement between the electron clouds of nucleic acids in DNA - Elisabeth Rieper, Janet Anders and Vlatko Vedral - February 2011 http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1006/1006.4053v2.pdf
bornagain77
April 21, 2013
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Went back up and put in some numbers.kairosfocus
April 21, 2013
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Now Mr. Matzke, why is it that we can't seem to find evidence for functional information generation by Darwinian processes? Besides the failure in the lab, as noted by Dr. Behe, for Darwian processes to generate functional information, as far back as we can go, we can find no evidence of Darwinian evolution producing new functional information:
The Paradox of the "Ancient" (250 Million Year Old) Bacterium Which Contains "Modern" Protein-Coding Genes: “Almost without exception, bacteria isolated from ancient material have proven to closely resemble modern bacteria at both morphological and molecular levels.” Heather Maughan*, C. William Birky Jr., Wayne L. Nicholson, William D. Rosenzweig§ and Russell H. Vreeland ; http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/9/1637 Enzymes Complex from the Get-go Excerpt: “Given the ancient origin of the reconstructed thioredoxin enzymes (a vital enzyme found in all living cells), with some of them predating the buildup of atmospheric oxygen, we expected their catalytic chemistry to be simple," said Fernandez. "Instead we found that enzymes that existed in the Precambrian era up to four billion years ago possessed many of the same chemical mechanisms observed in their modern-day relatives.”,, Further examination of the ancient enzymes revealed some striking features: The enzymes were highly resistant to temperature and were active in more acidic conditions. The findings suggest that the species hosting these ancient enzymes thrived in very hot environments that since then have progressively cooled down, and that they lived in oceans that were more acidic than today. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/enzymes-complex-from-the-get-go/ Static evolution: is pond scum the same now as billions of years ago? Excerpt: But what intrigues (paleo-biologist) J. William Schopf most is lack of change. Schopf was struck 30 years ago by the apparent similarities between some 1-billion-year-old fossils of blue-green bacteria and their modern microbial counterparts. "They surprisingly looked exactly like modern species," Schopf recalls. Now, after comparing data from throughout the world, Schopf and others have concluded that modern pond scum differs little from the ancient blue-greens. "This similarity in morphology is widespread among fossils of [varying] times," says Schopf. As evidence, he cites the 3,000 such fossils found; http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Static+evolution%3A+is+pond+scum+the+same+now+as+billions+of+years+ago%3F-a014909330
Why is this Mr. Matzke? You claim that Darwinian processes can easily produce functional information that is of far greater complexity than our best computer programmers can generate, but when push comes to shove, all your examples turn out to be deceptive literature bluffs, and as far back as we can go in the record we find no evidence for your materialistic/atheistic claim!bornagain77
April 21, 2013
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"Watch the chaos happen as Meyer changes his argument in response to criticism"
I wonder if by "chaos" Nick means the breakdown in reasoning that results from question begging. From Falk's defense of Venema's review of Signature in the Cell:
"Find a case where a large amount of CSI has accumulated without needing to invoke intelligence, and his argument, Meyer said, fails. This is a strong statement, clearly worded, and there is no hint of Meyer’s stipulation that it doesn’t count if life has already begun. In Dennis Venema's BioLogos blog series, he showed many cases where there were large increases in CSI (whole genome duplication, for example) without needing to invoke that supernatural intervention was necessary to create it. Chromosomes, the cell division machinery, and nucleotides are “purely chemical and physical antecedents.” The information content in the genome, Venema showed, quadrupled early in vertebrate history through material processes that we know and understand well. Did this not meet the scientific criteria that Meyer specifically called for?"
(My emphasis) Wow. Not only can DNA and cell division machinery be considered "purely chemical and physical antecedents" but we can explain the information content of the first genome by appealing to the information content in extant genomes. Read it for yourself. This stunning display of chaos is the result of Venema arguing that unguided evolution falsifies Meyer's claims about OOL. Falk merely underscores the problem with this type of reasoning -- it begs the question by invoking presumed properties of extant biology in order to account for the information content required for biological origins. Meyer's response to Venema's review: Of Molecules and (Straw) Men. Here's Luskin's commentary on the entire exchange: Responding to Venema's Response to Meyer's Response to Venema's Response to Meyer's Signature in the Cell: The Last in a Series (We Promise!):
But that is not the "basic argument" of Signature in the Cell, as we saw above. Meyer's "basic argument" is restricted to the origin of life, not the diversification of life through Darwinian evolution. Venema seems intent on reviewing the appendix to Signature in the Cell, rather than the book itself.
(Original emphasis) From that last article; Luskin quotes Meyer from Signature referencing COI:
Since I was not principally concerned with whether biological evolution could generate specified information, I decided to formulate a "conservative" conservation law -- one that applied only to a nonbiological context (and thus not to any information-rich initial state). My statement of the law does not say anything about whether undirected natural processes could produce an increase in specified information starting with preexisting forms of life. But it does encapsulate what repeated experience had demonstrated about the flow of information starting from chemistry and physics alone. Here's my version of the law of conservation of information: "In a nonbiological context, the amount of specified information initially present in a system, S, will generally equal or exceed the specified information content of the final system, Sf. (Meyer, Signature, p. 293, emphases added)
(Luskin's emphasis) That's especially relevant since Falk makes this claim:
Since I had read the book very carefully, and have gone over it many times since, I was amazed that I could have missed this stipulation. Again, he says: “I specifically stipulate that I am [not] talking about … processes (such as random genetic mutation and natural selection) that commence only once life has begun.” Did he really specifically stipulate that? Have we been barking up the wrong tree all this time?
Yes, step right up as the chaos ensues, and Falk appeals to cellular machinery to account for the information required for the OOL by some sort of technicality, as if it wasn't clear to the folks at BioLogos that appealing to what happens consequent to biological origins will not suffice to explain what happens to bring OOL about. Ultimately Falk comes clean about what's on the table:
In the end, our difference is simple, he thinks that the test tubes won’t ever deliver information rich molecules and I think it is too early to say. He has declared the matter more or less settled on the basis of scientific analysis. I consider the matter fully unsettled.
So Meyer shows that the best explanation for the OOL is intelligence, and the absolute best Falk has to offer is, "I think it's too early to say." (He also suggests Meyer has "giving up on the science".) Read the rest of Falk's article for loads of mischaracterizations and insipid religious platitudes.Chance Ratcliff
April 21, 2013
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kf, and if you can, please delete 2 and 3 for me. They are 'genome duplication' events which added no new information. :)bornagain77
April 21, 2013
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Delete #19 and #20 for me, will you, please, KF? They're pretty mean.Axel
April 21, 2013
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Nick:
. . . why the origin of new genes with new functions through normal processes of gene duplication, mutation, and natural selection doesn’t contradict his claim that the only way to get new information is through intelligent design.
Just want to make sure I am understanding your comment. Are you suggesting that new genes (beyond, say, a few point mutation changes) with new novel functions have been shown to have arisen through random mutation?Eric Anderson
April 21, 2013
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removed at requestAxel
April 21, 2013
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removed at requestAxel
April 21, 2013
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I mean like a laundry list - all in one post; not fragmented so that it's not clear whether any have been left unanswered.Axel
April 21, 2013
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Just a suggestion, KF, but would it not be easier to 'hold' your benighted, Darwin defenders' 'feet to the fire', if, when challenging these guys with questions, you always number the questions in order, stipulating that they answer each one, sequentially. If they have to miss one, well so be it. Just go on to the next one. At the moment, it is too easy for them to treat the specific questions put to them, like anchormen in TV, audience-participation shows, i.e. as infotainment. No serious pursuit of truth at all. Just for Joe Public to let off steam, within bounds that the politicians on the panel won't find too awkward. I love the way, when a politically incorrect question is raised the anchorman, he points to a member of the audience and calls out, 'You, Sir, in the orange pullover! Yes. You.' Not unlike the poor chap who complained to his doctor that people kept ignoring him. That ratbag of a doctor immediately called out, 'Next!Axel
April 21, 2013
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