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ID Foundations, 3: Irreducible Complexity as concept, as fact, as [macro-]evolution obstacle, and as a sign of design

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[ID Found’ns Series, cf. also Bartlett here]

Irreducible complexity is probably the most violently objected to foundation stone of Intelligent Design theory. So, let us first of all define it by slightly modifying Dr Michael Behe’s original statement in his 1996 Darwin’s Black Box [DBB]:

What type of biological system could not be formed by “numerous successive, slight modifications?” Well, for starters, a system that is irreducibly complex. By irreducibly complex I mean a single system composed of several well-matched interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the [core] parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning. [DBB, p. 39, emphases and parenthesis added. Cf. expository remarks in comment 15 below.]

Behe proposed this definition in response to the following challenge by Darwin in Origin of Species:

If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find out no such case . . . . We should be extremely cautious in concluding that an organ could not have been formed by transitional gradations of some kind. [Origin, 6th edn, 1872, Ch VI: “Difficulties of the Theory.”]

In fact, there is a bit of question-begging by deck-stacking in Darwin’s statement: we are dealing with empirical matters, and one does not have a right to impose in effect outright logical/physical impossibility — “could not possibly have been formed” — as a criterion of test.

If, one is making a positive scientific assertion that complex organs exist and were credibly formed by gradualistic, undirected change through chance mutations and differential reproductive success through natural selection and similar mechanisms, one has a duty to provide decisive positive evidence of that capacity. Behe’s onward claim is then quite relevant: for dozens of key cases, no credible macro-evolutionary pathway (especially no detailed biochemical and genetic pathway) has been empirically demonstrated and published in the relevant professional literature. That was true in 1996, and despite several attempts to dismiss key cases such as the bacterial flagellum [which is illustrated at the top of this blog page] or the relevant part of the blood clotting cascade [hint: picking the part of the cascade — that before the “fork” that Behe did not address as the IC core is a strawman fallacy], it arguably still remains to today.

Now, we can immediately lay the issue of the fact of irreducible complexity as a real-world phenomenon to rest.

For, a situation where core, well-matched, and co-ordinated parts of a system are each necessary for and jointly sufficient to effect the relevant function is a commonplace fact of life. One that is familiar from all manner of engineered systems; such as, the classic double-acting steam engine:

Fig. A: A double-acting steam engine (Courtesy Wikipedia)

Such a steam engine is made up of rather commonly available components: cylinders, tubes, rods, pipes, crankshafts, disks, fasteners, pins, wheels, drive-belts, valves etc. But, because a core set of well-matched parts has to be carefully organised according to a complex “wiring diagram,” the specific function of the double-acting  steam engine is not explained by the mere existence of the parts.

Nor, can simply choosing and re-arranging similar parts from say a bicycle or an old-fashioned car or the like create a viable steam engine.  Specific mutually matching parts [matched to thousandths of an inch usually], in a very specific pattern of organisation, made of specific materials, have to be in place, and they have to be integrated into the right context [e.g. a boiler or other source providing steam at the right temperature and pressure], for it to work.

If one core part breaks down or is removed — e.g. piston, cylinder, valve, crank shaft, etc., core function obviously ceases.

Irreducible complexity is not only a concept but a fact.

But, why is it said that irreducible complexity is a barrier to Darwinian-style [macro-]evolution and a credible sign of design in biological systems?

First, once we are past a reasonable threshold of complexity, irreducible complexity [IC] is a form of functionally specific complex organisation and implied information [FSCO/I], i.e. it is a case of the specified complexity that is already immediately a strong sign of design on which the design inference rests. (NB: Cf. the first two articles in the ID foundations series — here and here.)

Fig. B, on the exploded, and nodes and arcs “wiring diagram” views of how a complex, functionally specific entity is assembled, will help us see this:

Fig. B (i): An exploded view of a gear pump. (Courtesy, Wikipedia)

Fig. B(ii): A Piping  and Instrumentation Diagram, illustrating how nodes, interfaces and arcs are “wired” together in a functional mesh network (Source: Wikimedia, HT: Citizendia; also cf. here, on polygon mesh drawings.)

We may easily see from Fig. B (i) and (ii) how specific components — which may themselves be complex — sit at nodes in a network, and are wired together in a mesh that specifies interfaces and linkages. From this, a set of parts and wiring instructions can be created, and reduced to a chain of contextual yes/no decisions. On the simple functionally specific bits metric, once that chain exceeds 1,000 decisions, we have an object that is so complex that it is not credible that the whole universe serving as a search engine, could credibly produce this spontaneously without intelligent guidance. And so, once we have to have several well-matched parts arranged in a specific “wiring diagram” pattern to achieve a function, it is almost trivial to run past 125 bytes [= 1,000 bits] of implied function-specifying information.

Of the significance of such a view, J. S Wicken observed in 1979:

‘Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems.  Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [[i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and notes added. Nb: “originally” is added to highlight that for self-replicating systems, the blue print can be built-in.)]

Indeed, the implication of that complex, information-rich functionally specific organisation is the source of Sir Fred Hoyle’s metaphor of comparing the idea of spontaneous assembly of such an entity to a tornado in a junkyard assembling a flyable 747 out of parts that are just lying around.

Similarly, it is not expected that if one were to do a Humpty Dumpty experiment — setting up a cluster of vials with sterile saline solution with nutrients and putting in each a bacterium then pricking it so the contents of the cell leak out — it is not expected that in any case, the parts would spontaneously re-assemble to yield a viable bacterial colony.

But also, IC is a barrier to the usual suggested counter-argument, co-option or exaptation based on a conveniently available cluster of existing or duplicated parts. For instance, Angus Menuge has noted that:

For a working [bacterial] flagellum to be built by exaptation, the five following conditions would all have to be met:

C1: Availability. Among the parts available for recruitment to form the flagellum, there would need to be ones capable of performing the highly specialized tasks of paddle, rotor, and motor, even though all of these items serve some other function or no function.

C2: Synchronization. The availability of these parts would have to be synchronized so that at some point, either individually or in combination, they are all available at the same time.

C3: Localization. The selected parts must all be made available at the same ‘construction site,’ perhaps not simultaneously but certainly at the time they are needed.

C4: Coordination. The parts must be coordinated in just the right way: even if all of the parts of a flagellum are available at the right time, it is clear that the majority of ways of assembling them will be non-functional or irrelevant.

C5: Interface compatibility. The parts must be mutually compatible, that is, ‘well-matched’ and capable of properly ‘interacting’: even if a paddle, rotor, and motor are put together in the right order, they also need to interface correctly.

( Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science, pgs. 104-105 (Rowman & Littlefield, 2004). HT: ENV.)

In short, the co-ordinated and functional organisation of a complex system  is itself a factor that needs credible explanation.

However, as Luskin notes for the iconic flagellum, “Those who purport to explain flagellar evolution almost always only address C1 and ignore C2-C5.” [ENV.]

And yet, unless all five factors are properly addressed, the matter has plainly not been adequately explained. Worse, the classic attempted rebuttal, the Type Three Secretory System [T3SS] is not only based on a subset of the genes for the flagellum [as part of the self-assembly the flagellum must push components out of the cell], but functionally, it works to help certain bacteria prey on eukaryote organisms. Thus, if anything the T3SS is not only a component part that has to be integrated under C1 – 5, but it is credibly derivative of the flagellum and an adaptation that is subsequent to the origin of Eukaryotes. Also, it is just one of several components, and is arguably itself an IC system. (Cf Dembski here.)

Going beyond all of this, in the well known Dover 2005 trial, and citing ENV, ID lab researcher Scott Minnich has testified to a direct confirmation of the IC status of the flagellum:

Scott Minnich has properly tested for irreducible complexity through genetic knock-out experiments he performed in his own laboratory at the University of Idaho. He presented this evidence during the Dover trial, which showed that the bacterial flagellum is irreducibly complex with respect to its complement of thirty-five genes. As Minnich testified: One mutation, one part knock out, it can’t swim. Put that single gene back in we restore motility. Same thing over here. We put, knock out one part, put a good copy of the gene back in, and they can swim. By definition the system is irreducibly complex. We’ve done that with all 35 components of the flagellum, and we get the same effect. [Dover Trial, Day 20 PM Testimony, pp. 107-108. Unfortunately, Judge Jones simply ignored this fact reported by the researcher who did the work, in the open court room.]

That is, using “knockout” techniques, the 35 relevant flagellar proteins in a target bacterium were knocked out then restored one by one.

The pattern for each DNA-sequence: OUT — no function, BACK IN — function restored.

Thus, the flagellum is credibly empirically confirmed as irreducibly complex.

The “Knockout Studies” concept — a research technique that rests directly on the IC property of many organism features –needs some explanation.

[Continues here]

Comments
lastyearon, I think that the principle of IC is not a direct refutation of evolution, but it, like many other things, makes evolution very unlikely. Allow me to give an analogy. It has been said that an arch is an irreducably complex system because two parts (the legs) depend on each other. Yet an arch could come about in a stepwise fashion. You find arches in nature. I enjoy going to Arches National Park in southern Utah. http://www.nps.gov/arch/photosmultimedia/photogallery.htm I don't know of anyone who believes that those arches are designed. But I would say that the principle of IC would say that they are unlikely in nature. But now, imagine this: you find an arch on top of an arch. Surely you'd agree that this is even more unlikely? What about 3 arches all on top of each other? Isn't it implausible that one of them hasn't crumbled by now? What about 12 or a thousand arches all stacked up on each other? I would say that theoretically it is possible that it could happen, but it is very very unlikely. Evolutionists might say, "wait, what about deep time! You never know!" You're right, I'd never know, but I would point out that geology is also subject to deep time and all we ever get are single arches (that I know of).Collin
January 27, 2011
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kf, my pleasure. The one thing I love about the Quantum foundation of our 3-D reality is that it firmly shows that 'miracles' are not precluded from really happening. Because QM shows that the foundation of our 3-D reality blatantly defies our concepts of time and space. Most people consider defying time and space to be supernatural 'miraculous' event. I know I certainly do! Therefore I hold that our 3-D reality is indeed based on a 'supernatural miraculous reality' not constrained by time or space. 27 Amazing Miracles in Real Life - Readers Digest http://www.rd.com/family/27-amazing-miracles-in-real-life-2/ Sarah McLachlan-Ordinary Miracle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urv7tyeJ7qEbornagain77
January 27, 2011
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BA: Thanks ever so much, I think I have a use for that. There was also a web site out there that alas I have lost with that HD crash. (If I did not have a Jolicloud Linux partition . . . ) Alex 73: I think Matteo had his tongue firmly in cheek, i.e. his remark was satirical intended to point to a reductio ad absurdum. I took up the invitation. ______________ Let's see what LYO, NR et al have to say onward. Have fun for now . . . G PS: Anybody seen a pickup from the usual objectors out there in the evo mat blogosphere? That might be useful . . . as they perceive IC as ID's weakest yet most threatening point, I think.kairosfocus
January 27, 2011
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Matteo, lastyearon et al: Looking at your comments I had the following conclusion: For evolution, nothing is impossible. or: Evolution can do anything. or: Any biological system, known and still unknown, was generated by evolution. Even if it was designed by a scientist (e.g. GM crops), it still could have been evolved. or: Until you give me a particular system in biology that I cannot imagine how it could have evolved, evolution remains the only scientific explanation. The mere fact, that you do not even consider that the explanation for an IC system is at least a challenge to the evolutionary framework is scary. You cite incredulity, but at the same time are willing to believe anything that follows from the blind watchmaker hypothesis.Alex73
January 27, 2011
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kf, I believe this is the Dr. Quantum video you are referring to: Dr. Quantum - Double Slit Experiment & Entanglement - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4096579/bornagain77
January 27, 2011
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BA: Thanks, a young talent like that should be encouraged. BTW, you once pointed to a quantum version of the Young double slit expt that showed the time reversal effect in action, I believe a certain Dr Quantum may have been involved. Where is that at? [About 5 mos ago, I had a HD crash and lost a lot of stuff.] Matteo: Indeed, infinite monkeys with infinite typewriters, infinite time and infinite paper forests and factories, fuelled by infinite banana plantations can indeed reproduce all books, web posts etc ever written, by pure chance. But then, how are we ever going to find the islands of functional books in the chaos of an infinite sea of nonsense on paper? [Here we see a function of mind: zeroing in on the islands of function.] And, where are we going to get such a plenitude of convenient infinities from? WB: Thanks for some kind words of encouragement. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 27, 2011
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Hi Kairos, I am indeed glad that you have been given the opportunity to post at uncommon descent! I have always enjoyed your comments here. Keep up the good work!William Brookfield
January 26, 2011
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Once we therefore see a case of considerable complexity with a significant number of parts that are necessary for function the parts must each be available, must be brought together, must be correctly arranged and meshed, for the function to emerge. And, each issue is just as important as a roadblock to emergence of the sort of composite function we are discussing.
But this is just crazy talk. If you've got available monkeys, and you also have available typewriters, you'll get Shakespeare. Guaranteed! Your incredulity has no bearing!Matteo
January 26, 2011
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OT kf; you may really enjoy this song sung by this talented 13 year old: Greyson Chance Performs "Waiting Outside The Lines" on Ellen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_sAUdtsAXEbornagain77
January 26, 2011
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10 --> Now it so happens that we are dealing with living, cell based systems. So, the first IC issue is that we see that the living cell is a metabolising system that on a stored code is able to replicate itself through implementing a von Neumann self-replicator, requiring:
(i) an underlying storable code to record the required information to create not only (a) the primary functional machine [[here, for a "clanking replicator" as illustrated, a Turing-type “universal computer”; in a cell this would be the metabolic entity that transforms environmental materials into required components etc.] but also (b) the self-replicating facility; and, that (c) can express step by step finite procedures for using the facility; (ii) a coded blueprint/tape record of such specifications and (explicit or implicit) instructions, together with (iii) a tape reader [[called “the constructor” by von Neumann] that reads and interprets the coded specifications and associated instructions; thus controlling: (iv) position-arm implementing machines with “tool tips” controlled by the tape reader and used to carry out the action-steps for the specified replication (including replication of the constructor itself); backed up by (v) either: (1) a pre-existing reservoir of required parts and energy sources, or (2) associated “metabolic” machines carrying out activities that as a part of their function, can provide required specific materials/parts and forms of energy for the replication facility, by using the generic resources in the surrounding environment.
11 --> Also, as pointed out, parts (ii), (iii) and (iv) are each necessary for and together are jointly sufficient to implement a self-replicating machine with an integral von Neumann universal constructor. That is, we see here an irreducibly complex set of core components that must all be present in a properly organised fashion for a successful self-replicating machine to exist. 12 --> No self-replication,no life. And we know the source of codes, algorithms etc. We have already seen that the constraints of IC strongly block Darwinian type pathways -- not the same as all evolutionary pathways [you don't seem to be taking on board some important and longstanding distinctions] -- but the problem here is that if this one is not solved, you cannot get to differential reproductive success as you do not have the possibility of reproduction. 13 --> So, we have excellent positive grounds on inference to best, empirically anchored explanation, to infer to the known source of such: design. Regardless of who the candidate designers may be, we have grounds for seeing the signs of design at work in the foundations of life. INCLUDING IN THE CAPACITY OF LIVING CELLS TO REPLICATE THEMSELVES. 14 --> Going beyond that, an examination of your onward post shows no sign of actual warrant for the claim, just a repetition of the deck-stacking, dismissive assertion, e.g.: even if something needs all its parts to function the way it does now, that does not prove that it didn’t evolve from a collection of subset systems with different functions. 15 --> This simply brushes aside the issue of integration, configuration and interfacing to get the function, in a context where he only credible source of such close matching of components is foresight that planned it that way. 16 --> In short the effective infinity of ways to mismatch is so vastly larger than the few ways to match and work together, being properly organised, that your dismissal is counter productive. 17 --> That is, it boils down to a miracle of luck beyond the credible capacity of the cosmos to deliver such luck. 18 --> Not once, but dozens of times over in the typical organism and its body plan. 19 --> Multiplied by dozens and dozens of major body plans and hundreds of major organ systems. ________________ Simply on Occam's razor, it is plain that design is a far simpler and better warranted account than hundreds and hundreds of times over winning lotteries beyond the search resources of he observed cosmos, much less one tiny planet in it. In short the very nature of he objections you are making speaks eloquently that the issue on the merits strongly points to design as the best explanation for the many instances of IC in life. G'night GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 26, 2011
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LYO: Re: you are now simply arguing that some systems are sooo complex that you can’t imagine how they could have evolved. Your incredulity is not an argument against evolution. First, I note you have not produced the sort of evidence or even serious links that would point us to the evidence that would actually ground the idea that blind watchmaker type darwinian mechanisms can do what is being claimed. So, on the strength of rhetoric instead, we are being invited to accept Darwin's deck-stacking argument and that on a sarcastic dismissal of asking for the gold standard of scientific warrant: empirical observation and related inference to best explanation. Sorry, but when the scientific warrant is lacking one is entitled to a critical view, i.e. to incredulity. Anyway, let me not stand on my epistemic rights but address issues in steps. 1 --> First, pardon, have you read the OP at all? [The background of the two previous posts in this foundation series, here and here?] The specific exposition in 15? With all due respect, you are now beginning to sound like a Darwinist talking points tape stuck on the "repeat" loop. Let me assume that you are not just spouting talking points to distract the thread but genuinely do not understand the gaping holes in a dismissal like you just cited. 2 --> Notice, first and foremost, all the systems in view are not merely complex but functional in ways that depend on very specific organisation. That puts them on very tightly defined zones in large -- very very large, often -- configuration spaces. 3 --> How large? If there are more than 1,000 yes/no decisions to specify the components, nodes, interfaces and interconnexions of a complex functionally specific entity, we have something like 1.07*10^301 possible configs. [DNA for living cells starts at over 100,000 - 1,000,000 bits of storage capacity, and that does not reckon with the functional complexity of the organised host cell that has to give DNA its effect.] 4 --> The 10^80 or so atoms of the whole observed universe, changing state every Planck time (shortest duration that makes sense) could only scan through 10^150 states across the cosmos' thermodynamically credible lifespan, i.e less than 1 in 10^150 of the possible configs. In short,a cosmos-scope search is a zero size search of such a space, for all practical purposes. 5 --> Just 20 or so typical words of ASCII text [~ 125 bytes] are enough to put us into that too large to search territory. That is why when we see long enough runs of functional English text such as this post, we habitually infer to intelligence as the only observed and credible way to get that sort of functional, complex specific organization. Something that is literally backed up by billions of tests and no credible counter-examples. 6 --> In short FSCO/I is on induction from a very large observation base a reliable sign of design as cause, and the config space analysis just given backs it up in spades. 7 --> This is an inference on what is known and credible [indeed, the reasoning is very close to the statistical grounds for the second law of thermodynamics], not on some mythical incredulity that will not swallow the kind of deck-stacking Darwin indulged in the original post. 8 --> When we specifically deal with irreducible complexity, we are again dealing with a huge technological database, where we know that a lot of systems are made up from functional parts that are co-tuned to work together in very exactingly specific configs, to make clocks, cars, bicycles, aeroplanes, helicopters, radios, PC's, double-acting steam engines and much more. 9 --> These highly functionally specific and irreducibly complex systems provide a rich base of experience for seeing that such FSCO/I and IC systems are designed as the only directly known source of that sort of system. So, on induction alone, we would have good positive reason to suspect or even strongly believe that FSCO/I and IC systems are best explained as designed. [ . . . ]kairosfocus
January 26, 2011
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The picture of the engine, while very pretty, shows that you still dont understand evolution. If you remove a part it will no longer function as a steam engine, but it may function as something else. The picture of the engine, mouse-trap, etc, etc, etc, all appeal to our (unspoken) expectation that devices only have a single purpose, but evolution doesnt care if it changes its function.Graham
January 26, 2011
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f/n lastyearon, here is the standard that neo-Darwinism, by all rights of scientific integrity, should submit itself to; The Universal Plausibility Metric (UPM) & Principle (UPP) - Abel - Dec. 2009 Excerpt: Mere possibility is not an adequate basis for asserting scientific plausibility. A precisely defined universal bound is needed beyond which the assertion of plausibility, particularly in life-origin models, can be considered operationally falsified. But can something so seemingly relative and subjective as plausibility ever be quantified? Amazingly, the answer is, "Yes.",,, c?u = Universe = 10^13 reactions/sec X 10^17 secs X 10^78 atoms = 10^108 c?g = Galaxy = 10^13 X 10^17 X 10^66 atoms = 10^96 c?s = Solar System = 10^13 X 10^17 X 10^55 atoms = 10^85 c?e = Earth = 10^13 X 10^17 X 10^40 atoms = 10^70 http://www.tbiomed.com/content/6/1/27 as well lastyearon, all neo-Darwinists should, by all rights of scientific integrity, gracefully accept this experimental proof as falsification of their beloved theory; The Case Against a Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds - Douglas Axe - 2010 Excerpt Pg. 11: "Based on analysis of the genomes of 447 bacterial species, the projected number of different domain structures per species averages 991. Comparing this to the number of pathways by which metabolic processes are carried out, which is around 263 for E. coli, provides a rough figure of three or four new domain folds being needed, on average, for every new metabolic pathway. In order to accomplish this successfully, an evolutionary search would need to be capable of locating sequences that amount to anything from one in 10^159 to one in 10^308 possibilities, something the neo-Darwinian model falls short of by a very wide margin." http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2010.1 The Case Against a Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds - Douglas Axe, Jay Richards - audio http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-05-03T11_09_03-07_00bornagain77
January 26, 2011
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lastyearon you state, 'I’m less interested in trying to prove to you that complexity can evolve.' You can't prove it even if you wished to for there is ZERO evidence for the 'evolution' of any complexity greater than what was already present!!! Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - 'The Fitness Test' - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995248 In fact Scott Minnich mentions in the video,,, Bacterial Flagella: A Paradigm for Design – Scott Minnich – Video http://www.vimeo.com/9032112 ,,, that it would be impossible to study the genetic basis of the Flagellum unless it were indeed irreducibly complex, since irreducible complexity of the construction and function of the flagella allows them to determine which genes are responsible for which stage of construction and/or of operation of the flagellum! Bacterial Flagellum: Visualizing the Complete Machine In Situ Excerpt: Electron tomography of frozen-hydrated bacteria, combined with single particle averaging, has produced stunning images of the intact bacterial flagellum, revealing features of the rotor, stator and export apparatus. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VRT-4M8WTCF-K&_user=10&_coverDate=11%2F07%2F2006&_rdoc=1&_fmt=full&_orig=search&_cdi=6243&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8d7e0ad266148c9d917cf0c2a9d12e82&artImgPref=F save for the fact that the lastyearon you then state; 'I’m simply interested in making it clear IC is not a true objection to evolution.' What you actually trying to do is construct an impossible benchmark for falsification for evolution,, as Dr. Behe states in this video, evolution is notorious for its lack of standards for falsification,, Michael Behe on Falsifying Intelligent Design - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8jXXJN4o_A And yet ID readily submits itself for falsification!!! Tell me lastyearon, which other theory in science refuses to submit to falsification? further notes: The Law of Physicodynamic Insufficiency - Dr David L. Abel - November 2010 Excerpt: “If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise.”,,, After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: “No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone.” http://www.scitopics.com/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Insufficiency.html The GS (genetic selection) Principle – David L. Abel – 2009 Excerpt: Stunningly, information has been shown not to increase in the coding regions of DNA with evolution. Mutations do not produce increased information. Mira et al (65) showed that the amount of coding in DNA actually decreases with evolution of bacterial genomes, not increases. This paper parallels Petrov’s papers starting with (66) showing a net DNA loss with Drosophila evolution (67). Konopka (68) found strong evidence against the contention of Subba Rao et al (69, 70) that information increases with mutations. The information content of the coding regions in DNA does not tend to increase with evolution as hypothesized. Konopka also found Shannon complexity not to be a suitable indicator of evolutionary progress over a wide range of evolving genes. Konopka’s work applies Shannon theory to known functional text. Kok et al. (71) also found that information does not increase in DNA with evolution. As with Konopka, this finding is in the context of the change in mere Shannon uncertainty. The latter is a far more forgiving definition of information than that required for prescriptive information (PI) (21, 22, 33, 72). It is all the more significant that mutations do not program increased PI. Prescriptive information either instructs or directly produces formal function. No increase in Shannon or Prescriptive information occurs in duplication. What the above papers show is that not even variation of the duplication produces new information, not even Shannon “information.” http://www.scitopics.com/The_GS_Principle_The_Genetic_Selection_Principle.htmlbornagain77
January 26, 2011
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Kairosfocus, Thanks for your detailed replies. However you are now simply arguing that some systems are sooo complex that you can't imagine how they could have evolved. Your incredulity is not an argument against evolution. On the other hand, Michael Behe attempts to make a scientific argument against evolution with his concept of Irreducible Complexity. According to Behe, IC systems by definition could not have evolved in a stepwise fashion, since an IC system needs all of its parts to function. I have shown (as have many other people) that this is indeed incorrect in principle, since even if something needs all its parts to function the way it does now, that does not prove that it didn't evolve from a collection of subset systems with different functions. I'm less interested in trying to prove to you that complexity can evolve. I'm simply interested in making it clear IC is not a true objection to evolution.lastyearon
January 26, 2011
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LYO: In context I am plainly speaking specifically of the core function of the composite system. For instance, I speak in the OP and the thread above, of exaptation of sub systems that have their own functions, pointing out the issue of well-matched interfacing. On the steam engine example, you will see i point out how the components have all sorts of existing function, and even suggest sitting around with a bicycle and a car. The problems of integration and functional organisation then stand out, and the issue that sub-assemblies have to be interfaced, coordinated, and properly arranged was highlighted. In short, you have (doubtless inadvertently) projected a strawman based on what the objectors you have heard from taught you to see. They have misrepresented design thought, and have too often been resistant to correction when that has been pointed out. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 26, 2011
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LYO: Please,look at the discussion in the OP and above on the difference between [Neo-]darwinian evolutionary mechanisms assumed as capable of causing biodiversity from pond scum to us, and a belief that natural history has in it significant descent with modification in part caused by design. As I noted in 21, Behe believes in common descent [universal, I think], and YEC's often believe in rapid specialisation/speciation to fit niches. Their favourite example is the Dog/Wolf family. In the OP, on p 2, there is a significant excerpt from Wallace, co-founder of evolutionary theory, and a proponent of "intelligent evolution" in his linked magnum opus. Observe his discussion of birds. then, you may wish to propose some empirical evidence on the adequacy of blind watchmaker type [neo-] darwinian mechanisms and their various extensions adequate and empirically supported as so adequate, to account for birds. If you want instead to talk about flagella, account credibly for the origin of T3SS [and how it seems that in at least certain cases there are genes for the flagellum present, just not enabled or expressed], and then how it onward leads to the full flagellum and control system that allows the bacterium to use the flagellum to move towards nutrient sources. Similarly, on the relevant part of he blood clotting cascade, noting that if blood was not right from the first in this regard, it would not work, and animals with a problem would tend to bleed to death. Then, you might want to account for he origin of the code-based self-replication system that is central to cell-based life; which is also irreducibly complex. Perhaps, you could link or excerpt. GEM of TKI F/N: such accounts should not exert the CRD deck-stacking standard.kairosfocus
January 26, 2011
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kairosfocus, you said:
If there are missing core parts, no function is possible.
This seems to contradict what Mr. Behe says, according to F2XL:
Behe describes parts of IC systems as having functions of their own
Which is it? Can parts of IC systems have functions of their own?lastyearon
January 26, 2011
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If a living system exhibits Irreducible Complexity, does that mean that it couldn’t have been a product of evolution? I would like to get an answer to this for my own clarification. Thanks.lastyearon
January 26, 2011
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Well lastyearon, let's look at the most famous example of cooption; The T3SS: Genetic Entropy Refutation of Nick Matzke's TTSS (type III secretion system) to Flagellum Evolutionary Narrative: Excerpt: Comparative genomic analysis show that flagellar genes have been differentially lost in endosymbiotic bacteria of insects. Only proteins involved in protein export within the flagella assembly pathway (type III secretion system and the basal-body) have been kept... http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/msn153v1 Phylogenetic Analyses of the Constituents of Type III Protein Secretion Systems Excerpt: We suggest that the flagellar apparatus was the evolutionary precursor of Type III protein secretion systems. http://www.horizonpress.com/jmmb/v2/v2n2/02.pdf "One fact in favour of the flagellum-first view is that bacteria would have needed propulsion before they needed T3SSs, which are used to attack cells that evolved later than bacteria. Also, flagella are found in a more diverse range of bacterial species than T3SSs. ‘The most parsimonious explanation is that the T3SS arose later," Howard Ochman - Biochemist - New Scientist (Feb 16, 2008) So lastyearon the 'unfalsified' principle of genetic entropy shot down the 'just so cooption story' that you find so compelling, not to mention that you are simply incredulous that we would not see how reasonable your position is!!! Yet lastyearon despite your disbelief at why we can't see 'how simple evolution is', the whole point is that Genetic Entropy IS THE RULE for all beneficial biological adaptions!!! Darwinian evolution certainly IS NOT!!!!, There is not even one exception to this 'rule' of genetic entropy i.e. there are no examples whatsoever of the generation of complexity greater than what was already present in life, there are only examples of loss or 'adjustments' of function: “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain - Michael Behe - December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain.(that is a net 'fitness gain' within a 'stressed' environment i.e. remove the stress from the environment and the parent strain is always more 'fit') http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Michael Behe talks about the preceding paper on this podcast: Michael Behe: Challenging Darwin, One Peer-Reviewed Paper at a Time - December 2010 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-12-23T11_53_46-08_00 Evolution Vs Genetic Entropy - Andy McIntosh - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4028086bornagain77
January 26, 2011
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LYO: Why not take up something like the feathers and the wing, musculature and lungs of a bird. What empirically supported mechanisms could substantiate blind watchmaker thesis macroevolution as the source of flying birds, how? [cf p. 2 of OP] GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 26, 2011
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F/N: Behe believes in common descent, i.e. evolution. Just, plainly and on the evidence of IC, intelligently directed evolution, used as a means to effect a design. Oddly, many Young Earth Creationists believe in -- rapid -- evolution/ adaptation within about the taxonomic level of the family [cats, dogs, bats, salmonids etc], as a means of designed robustness and fitting to niches.kairosfocus
January 26, 2011
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LYO: Thanks for your further comment. I am afraid, however, a review of the remarks by CRD and MB step by step just above is indicated. The root issue is the concept of causal necessity and sufficiency for an effect or function. For instance, heat, fuel and oxidiser are each necessary for, and together are jointly sufficient to form and sustain a fire. Once we therefore see a case of considerable complexity with a significant number of parts that are necessary for function the parts must each be available, must be brought together, must be correctly arranged and meshed, for the function to emerge. And, each issue is just as important as a roadblock to emergence of the sort of composite function we are discussing. If there are missing core parts, no function is possible. Without foresight and planning, that is highly improbable. Even if there are relevant parts that if they were to be properly organised and interfaced would work, the problem is that without foresight, there is utterly unlikely to be a compatibility. Wrong size, wrong orientation of interface points etc etc. Then, the right parts, well matched on interfaces, have to be properly oriented and assembled on a wiring diagram that is itself complex. That is maximally unlikely by chance and forces of necessity without foresighted direction. Assembly, interfacing, tuning and setting up -- fine tuning in short -- are hard to do. Specific ways that Darwinian mechanisms have successfully overcome such hurdles need to be empirically shown, not suggested or assumed. Darwinian mechanisms by definition lack capacity for foresight, planning and associated intentional provision of properly fitted components and sub-assemblies in light of future needs, and want of plans and means to drive the assembly [and the halting at the precise point where the system has been properly put together] to get the right function all at once, point to a systematic want of capcity to do the required job. Irreducible complexity is real, it is observed in general and biological systems, and it points away from specifically Darwinian mechanisms. Perhaps there are other evolutionary mechanisms at work, but to have credibility in the face of the sort of concerns this thread is discussing,they would have to be the sort of Intelligent Evolution, Wallace proposed. Irreducible Complexity is a sign pointing to foresighted design, whatever means were used to effect it. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 26, 2011
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F2XL:
Despite the fact that Behe describes parts of IC systems as having functions of their own (like microtubules), people still buy into this myth 15 years after Behe made it clear that it’s the system’s original function that’s in question – not the parts.
That is trivially easy to counter: The system's original function was different than it's current function. It evolved. If you counter with something like "That's just conjecture. How could something so complex have evolved. Show me the step by step process by which it evolved." I say, ok. That's a legitimate question. We don't know exactly how, and we may never know. Evolutionary biologists are working on finding answers. However by saying that the individual parts of an IC system could have had their own functions in the past, you effectively remove IC as an objection to evolution.lastyearon
January 26, 2011
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lastyearon
Living systems that have zero redundant parts are not an argument against evolution because they could have evolved that way.
Translation: "A" is not an argument against evolution because evolution could have caused "A". Could Not!SCheesman
January 26, 2011
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lastyearon you state: 'I don’t understand why you guys are not getting it.' Oh do please enlighten us poor misguided ones lastyearon. Those of us who have the audacity to doubt the almighty power of evolution to create the unmatched complexity we find in life by a process of mere 'filtered errors': Nothing In Molecular Biology Is Gradual - Doug Axe PhD. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5347797/ "Charles Darwin said (paraphrase), 'If anyone could find anything that could not be had through a number of slight, successive, modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.' Well that condition has been met time and time again. Basically every gene, every protein fold. There is nothing of significance that we can show that can be had in a gradualist way. It's a mirage. None of it happens that way. - Doug Axe PhD. in spite of the fact of finding molecular motors permeating the simplest of bacterial life, there are no detailed Darwinian accounts for the evolution of even one such motor or system. "There are no detailed Darwinian accounts for the evolution of any fundamental biochemical or cellular system only a variety of wishful speculations. It is remarkable that Darwinism is accepted as a satisfactory explanation of such a vast subject." James Shapiro - Molecular Biologist The following expert doesn't even hide his very unscientific preconceived philosophical bias against intelligent design,,, ‘We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity,,, Yet at the same time the same expert readily admits that neo-Darwinism has ZERO evidence for the chance and necessity of material processes producing any cellular system whatsoever,,, ,,,we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical or cellular system, only a variety of wishful speculations.’ Franklin M. Harold,* 2001. The way of the cell: molecules, organisms and the order of life, Oxford University Press, New York, p. 205. Professor Emeritus of Biochemistry, Colorado State University, USA Michael Behe - No Scientific Literature For Evolution of Any Irreducibly Complex Molecular Machines http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5302950/ “The response I have received from repeating Behe's claim about the evolutionary literature, which simply brings out the point being made implicitly by many others, such as Chris Dutton and so on, is that I obviously have not read the right books. There are, I am sure, evolutionists who have described how the transitions in question could have occurred.” And he continues, “When I ask in which books I can find these discussions, however, I either get no answer or else some titles that, upon examination, do not, in fact, contain the promised accounts. That such accounts exist seems to be something that is widely known, but I have yet to encounter anyone who knows where they exist.” David Ray Griffin - retired professor of philosophy of religion and theology Poly-Functional Complexity equals Poly-Constrained Complexity http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMjdoZmd2emZncQbornagain77
January 26, 2011
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I'm sorry but this is a very simple point and I don't understand why you guys are not getting it. Irreducible Complexity is meant as an argument against evolution. It is a direct response to Darwin's statement (which the author of this post quotes):
If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.
However according to this post, IC is simply a term for a system in which all the parts are needed for it to perform its current function. In other words, it has zero redundant parts. Living systems that have zero redundant parts are not an argument against evolution because they could have evolved that way. So my question to you guys is this: If a living system exhibits Irreducible Complexity, does that mean that it couldn't have been a product of evolution?lastyearon
January 26, 2011
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F/N: Let's annotate Behe's def'n from DBB, 1996, p. 39, as slightly amplified, and in the context of Darwin's key statement he responded to: ________________________ CRD (1872): >> If it could be demonstrated a --> Note, strength of proof demanded, i.e. deck-stacking begins that any complex organ existed, b --> complexity is highlighted, and would refer to multiple parts that work together to achieve a whole function. c --> Onward context is plainly Paley's inference to design of organs and features of organisms, which CRD sought to overthrow through his theory of evolution by cumulative small changes. d --> Paley, ch I of Nat Theol, famously contrasted stumbling across a stone in a field with finding a watch in the same field; inferring design from the characteristics of a watch that are distinct from those of a stone. e --> Especially, that:
“. . . its several parts are framed and put together for a [functionally specific] purpose, e.g., that they are so formed and adjusted as to produce motion, and that motion so regulated as to point out the hour of the day.”
which could not possibly have been f --> CRD further stacks the deck, i.e. if we take at face value, only logical/physical impossibility would count against his theory formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, g --> The theory is premised on small chance changes cumulating through descent with modification and survival of "favoured races" to yield descent with unlimited modifications sufficient to account for the full range of body plans. my theory would absolutely break down h --> If you disprove that descent with incremental modifications is enough, then the darwinian theory fails i --> It purports to be an account of how what seems designed in life is designoid. >> MB (1996, aug): >> By irreducibly complex j --> MB builds on Darwin's highlighted complex organs k --> He asserts that a certain possible class of complexity -- that meets certain criteria -- is not reducible to the fine steps incremented I mean a single system l --> System, thus parts, inputs, processes, outputs, integration and interaction to yield the whole function composed of several well-matched interacting parts m --> specifies multiple parts, that must match, i.e interfacing, organisation and integration to work together are key that contribute to the basic function, n --> focus is on a functional core to which the key parts jointly contribute wherein the removal of any one of the [core] parts o --> Each [core] part makes a necessary contribution to function p --> the test of that causal necessity is that the part is removed [cf Minnich's knockout studies] causes q --> THE PARTS ARE EACH CAUSALLY NECESSARY TO THE CORE OR BASIC FUNCTION the system to effectively cease functioning. r --> removal of any and each such part triggers functional failure s --> replacement would return its contribution [cf Minnich again] t --> So, if we have parts 1 . . . n, where each is necessary and the lot jointly assembled and integrated are sufficient for function the core function is all-or-none. it has to be all together at once or it does not work. u --> All parts must be simultaneously present, must be well-matched and must be properly networked and interfaced for function to result. v --> So, even if all parts are present but they are not properly organised and interfaced, function will not emerge. w --> Co-option then faces the issues of correct assembly and functional interfacing, without which parts of relevant function will not work together. x --> Without foresight, once a systemic whole required ]s multiple parts, even if relevant parts are available, if they are not matched ahead of time by extreme good luck [utterly unlikely without foresight], a miracle of mutual adaptation has to happen by chance. y --> Also, the parts have to be somehow assembled to the right location and configuration, which once a fair degree of complexity obtains, is quite difficult: the islands of function in a large configuration space problem. (Think of the over-ambitious boy who dis-assembles his new fishing reel and then needs to correctly re-assemble it.) z --> Thus,IC is indeed a credible counter to a reasonable [non deck-stacked] form of Darwin's claim. [DBB, p. 39, emphases and parenthesis added.] >> ____________________________ The suggested test cases would be useful ones to bring forward empirically well supported evolutionary solutions that do not strain the issues of reasonable plausibility. No hopeful monsters, in short. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 26, 2011
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lastyearon:
In order for Irreducible Complexity to be any sort of argument against evolution, it must describe a system where none of it’s parts by themselves could have performed any function that could be selected upon.
1- IC is not an argument against evolution, just the blind watchmaker. 2- Dr Behe has already addressed your concerns: Irreducible Complexity is an Obstacle to Darwinism Even if Parts of a System have other Functions:
I never wrote that individual parts of an IC system couldn't be used for any other purpose. (That would be silly—who would ever claim that a part of a mousetrap couldn't be used as a paperweight, or a decoration, or a blunt weapon?) Quite the opposite, I clearly wrote in Darwin's Black Box that even if the individual parts had their own functions, that still does not account for the irreducible complexity of the system. In fact, it would most likely exacerbate the problem, as I stated when considering whether parts lying around a garage could be used to make a mousetrap without intelligent intervention.
Joseph
January 26, 2011
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"In order for Irreducible Complexity to be any sort of argument against evolution, it must describe a system where none of it’s parts by themselves could have performed any function that could be selected upon." (emphasis mine) **Facepalm** Despite the fact that Behe describes parts of IC systems as having functions of their own (like microtubules), people still buy into this myth 15 years after Behe made it clear that it's the system's original function that's in question - not the parts. A TTSS may have it's own separate function but the rotary motor is out of the picture. I notice that when Ken Miller is confronted with this, he tends to just change the subject and say something along the lines of "...well, if that's what Behe meant, parts could've been co-opted so IC becomes meaningless..." To think that he accuses us of "assuming what we're trying to prove" in "The Flagellum Unspun" as if he's not guilty of the same thing.F2XL
January 26, 2011
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