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ID Foundations, 8: Switcheroo — the error of asserting without adequate observational evidence that the design of life (from OOL on) is achievable by small, chance- driven, success- reinforced increments of complexity leading to the iconic tree of life

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Algorithmic hill-climbing first requires a hill . .

[UD ID Founds Series, cf. Bartlett on IC]

Ever since Dawkins’ Mt Improbable analogy, a common argument of design objectors has been that such complex designs as we see in life forms can “easily” be achieved incrementally, by steps within plausible reach of chance processes, that are then stamped in by success, i.e. by hill-climbing. Success, measured by reproductive advantage and what used to be called “survival of the fittest.”

[Added, Oct 15, given a distractive strawmannisation problem in the thread of discussion:  NB: The wide context in view, plainly,  is the Dawkins Mt Improbable type hill climbing, which is broader than but related to particular algorithms that bear that label.]

Weasel’s “cumulative selection” algorithm (c. 1986/7) was the classic — and deeply flawed, even outright misleading — illustration of Dawkinsian evolutionary hill-climbing.

To stir fresh thought and break out of the all too common stale and predictable exchanges over such algorithms, let’s put on the table a key remark by Stanley and Lehman, in promoting their particular spin on evolutionary algorithms, Novelty Search:

. . . evolutionary search is usually driven by measuring how close the current candidate solution is to the objective. [ –> Metrics include ratio, interval, ordinal and nominal scales; this being at least ordinal] That measure then determines whether the candidate is rewarded (i.e. whether it will have offspring) or discarded. [ –> i.e. if further moderate variation does not improve, you have now reached the local peak after hill-climbing . . . ] In contrast, novelty search [which they propose] never measures progress at all. Rather, it simply rewards those individuals that are different.

Instead of aiming for the objective, novelty search looks for novelty; surprisingly, sometimes not looking for the goal in this way leads to finding the goal [–> notice, an admission of goal- directedness . . . ] more quickly and consistently. While it may sound strange, in some problems ignoring the goal outperforms looking for it. The reason for this phenomenon is that sometimes the intermediate steps to the goal do not resemble the goal itself. John Stuart Mill termed this source of confusion the “like-causes-like” fallacy. In such situations, rewarding resemblance to the goal does not respect the intermediate steps that lead to the goal, often causing search to fail . . . .

Although it is effective for solving some deceptive problems, novelty search is not just another approach to solving problems. A more general inspiration for novelty search is to create a better abstraction of how natural evolution discovers complexity. An ambitious goal of such research is to find an algorithm that can create an “explosion” of interesting complexity reminiscent of that found in natural evolution.

While we often assume that complexity growth in natural evolution is mostly a consequence of selection pressure from adaptive competition (i.e. the pressure for an organism to be better than its peers), biologists have shown that sometimes selection pressure can in fact inhibit innovation in evolution. Perhaps complexity in nature is not the result of optimizing fitness, but instead a byproduct of evolution’s drive to discover novel ways of life.

While their own spin is not without its particular problems in promoting their own school of thought — there is an unquestioned matter of factness about evolution doing this that is but little warranted by actual observed empirical facts at body-plan origins level, and it is by no means a given that “evolution” will reward mere novelty —  some pretty serious admissions against interest are made.

Now, since this “mysteriously” seems to be controversial in the comment thread below, courtesy Wikipedia, let us add [Sat, Oct 15] a look at a “typical” topology of a fitness landscape, noticing how there is an uphill slope all around it, i.e. we are looking at islands of function that lead uphill to local maxima by hill-climbing in the broad, Dawkinsian, cumulative steps up Mt Improbable sense:

A "typical" fitness landscape, with local maxima, saddle and uphill trends

Now, too, right from the opening remarks in the clip, Stanley and Lehman acknowledge how targetted searches dominate the evolutionary algorithm field, a point often hotly denied by advocates of GA’s as good models of how evolution is said to have happened:

. . . evolutionary search is usually driven by measuring how close the current candidate solution is to the objective. [ –> i.e. if further moderate variation does not improve, you have now reached the local peak after hill-climbing . . . ] That measure  [ –> Metrics include ratio, interval, ordinal and nominal scales; this being at least ordinal] then determines whether the candidate is rewarded (i.e. whether it will have offspring) or discarded . . . .  in some problems ignoring the goal outperforms looking for it. The reason for this phenomenon is that sometimes the intermediate steps to the goal do not resemble the goal itself. John Stuart Mill termed this source of confusion the “like-causes-like” fallacy. In such situations, rewarding resemblance to the goal does not respect the intermediate steps that lead to the goal, often causing search to fail

We should also explicitly note what should be obvious, but is obviously not to many:  nice, trend-based uphill climbing in a situation where the authors of a program have loaded in a function with trends and peaks, is built-in goal-seeking behaviour (as the first illustration above shows).

Similarly, we see how the underlying assumption of a smoothly progressive Hill- Climbing trend to the goal is highly misleading in a world where there may be irreducibly complex outcomes, where the components, separately do not move you to the target of performance, but when suitably joined together we see an emergent result not predictable from projecting trend lines. (Of course, Stanley and Lehman tiptoe quietly around explicitly naming that explosive concept. But that is exactly what is at work in the case where “intermediate steps” do not lead to a goal: it is not “steps” but components that as a core cluster must all be present and must be organised in the right pattern to work together, to have the resulting function. Even something as common as a sentence tends to exhibit this pattern, and algorithm-implementing software is a special case of that. Think about how often a single error can trigger failure.)

The incrementalist claim, then, is by no means a sure thing to be presented with the usual ever so confident, breezily assured assertions that we hear ever so often. For, the fallacy of confident manner lurks.

Secondly, let us also note how the incrementalist objection actually implies a key admission or two.

For one, we can see that apparent design is a recognised fact of the world of life, i.e. as Dawkins acknowledges in opening remarks of his The Blind Watchmaker, 1986; as, Proponentist has raised in the current Free Thinker UD thread:

Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.

Elsewhere, in River out of Eden (1995), as Proponentist also highlights, Dawkins adds:

The illusion of purpose is so powerful that biologists themselves use the assumption of good design as a working tool.

These two remarks underscore a point objectors to design thought are often loathe to acknowledge: namely, that Design Scientist, William Dembski is fundamentally right: significant increments in functionally specific complexity beyond a threshold by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, are so improbable as to be effectively operationally impossible on the gamut of our observed universe.

Similarly, as Proponentist goes on to ask:

How does Mr. Dawkins know that something gives the appearance of design? Can his statement be tested scientifically?

Obviously, if Mr. Dawkins is correct, then he is talking about “evidence that design can be observed in nature” . . . . You can either observe design (of some kind) or not. If you can observe it, then you already distinguish it from non-design.

This is already a key point: as a routine matter, we recognise that — on a wealth of experience and observation — complex, functionally specific arrangements of parts towards a goal, are best explained as intentionally and intelligently chosen, composed or directed. That is, as designed.

Darwin's original sketch of his Tree of Life icon of Evolution

But, the onward Darwinist idea is that every instance of claimed design in the world of life can be reduced to a process of incremental changes that gradually accumulate from some primitive original self-replicating organism (and beyond that, original self replicating molecule or molecular cluster), through the iconic Darwinian tree of life — already, a consciously ironic switcheroo on the Biblical Tree of Life in Genesis and Revelation.

So, already, through the battling cultural icons, we know that much more than simply science is at stake here.

So also, we know to be on special guard against questionable worldview assumptions such as those promoted by Lewontin and so many others.

Now, too, Design objector Petrushka, has thrown down a rhetorical gauntlet in the current UD Freethinker thread:

One can accept the inference that a complex system didn’t arise in one step by chance without saying anything specific about its history.

The argument is about the specific history, not whether 500 or whatever bits of code arose purely by chance . . . . The word “design,” whether apparent or otherwise means nothing. It’s a smoke screen. The issue is whether known mechanisms can account for the history.

Words like “smoke screen” imply an unfortunate accusation of deception, and put a fairly stiff burden of proof on those who use them. Which — on fair comment — has not been met, and cannot be soundly met, as the accusation is simply false.

Similarly “purely by chance” is a strawman caricature.

One, that ducks the observed fact that there are exactly two observed sources of highly contingent outcomes: chance [e.g. what would happen by tossing a tray of dice] and intelligent arrangement [e.g. arranging the same tray of dice in a specific pattern]. Mechanical necessity [e.g. a dropped heavy object reliably falls at 9.8 m/s2 near earth’s surface] is not a source of high contingency. So, in the combination of blind chance and mechanical necessity, the highly contingent outcomes would be coming from the chance component.

Nevertheless, we need to show that “design” is most definitely not a meaningless or utterly confusing term, generally or in the context of the world of life.

That’s why I replied:

Design is itself a known, empirically observed, causal mechanism. Its specific methods may vary, but designs are as familiar as the composition of the above clipped sentences of ASCII text: purposeful arrangement of parts, towards a goal, and typically manifesting a coherence in light of that purpose.

The arrangement of 151 ASCII 128-state characters above as clipped [from the first part of the cite from Petrushka], is one of 1.544*10^318 possibilities for that many ASCII characters.

The Planck Time Quantum State resources of the observed universe, across its thermodynamically credible lifespan, 50 million times the time since the usual date for the big bang, could not take up as many as 1 in 10^150 of those possibilities. Translated into a one-straw sized sample, millions of cosmi comparable to the observed universe could be lurking in a haystack that big, and yet, a single cosmos full of PTQS’s sized sample would overwhelmingly be only likely to pick up a straw. (And, it takes about 10^30 PTQS’s for the fastest chemical interactions.)

It is indisputable that a coherent, contextually responsive sequence of ASCII characters in English — a definable zone of interest T, from which your case E above comes — is a tiny and unrepresentative sample of the space of possibilities for 151 ASCII characters, W.

We habitually and routinely know of just one cause that can credibly account for such a purposeful arrangement of ASCII characters in a string structure that fits into T: design. The other main known causal factors at this level — chance and/or necessity, without intelligent intervention — predictably would only throw out gibberish in creating strings of that length, even if you were to convert millions of cosmi the scope of our own observed one, into monkeys and world processors, with forests, banana plantations etc to support them.

In short, there is good reason to see that design is a true causal factor. One, rooted in intelligence and purpose, that makes purposeful arrangements of parts; which are often recognisable from the resulting functional specificity in the field of possibilities, joined to the degree of complexity involved.

As a practical matter, 500 – 1,000 bits of information-carrying capacity, is a good enough threshold for the relevant degree of complexity. Or, using the simplified chi metric at the lower end of that range:

Chi_500 = I*S – 500, in bits beyond the solar system threshold.

So, when we see the manifestation of FSCO/I, we do have a known, adequate mechanism, and ONLY one known, adequate mechanism. Design.

That is why FSCO/I is so good as an empirically detectable sign of design, even when we do not otherwise know the causal history of origin.

{Added: this can be expressed through the explanatory filter, applied per aspect of a phenomenon or process, allowing individual aspects best explained by mechanical necessity, chance and intelligence to be separated out, step by step in our analysis:

The (per aspect) Design Inference Explanatory Filter}

Do you really mean to demand of us that we believe that design by an intelligence with a purpose is not a known causal mechanism? If so, what then accounts for the PC you are using? The car you may drive, or the house or apartment etc. that you may live in?

Do you see how you have reduced your view to blatant, selectively hyperskeptical absurdity?

And, of course, the set of proteins and DNA for even the simplest living systems, is well beyond the FSCI threshold. 100,000 – 1 mn+ DNA bases is well beyond 1,000 bits of information carrying capacity.

Yes, that points to design as the best explanation of living systems in light of the known cause of FSCO/I. What’s new about that or outside the range of views of qualified and even eminent scientists across time and today?

Similarly, the incrementalist mechanism of blind chance and mechanical necessity through trial and error/success thesis has some stiff challenges to meet:

. . . the usual cases of claimed observed incremental creation of novel info beyond the FSCI threshold, as a general rule boil down to:

(a) targetted movements within an island of function, where the implicit, designed in information of a so-called fitness function of a well behaved type — trends help rather than lead to traps — is allowed to emerge step by step. (Genetic Algorithms are a classic of this.)

(b) The focus is made on a small part of the process, much like how if a monkey were to indeed type out a Shakespearean sonnet by random typing, there would now be a major search challenge to identify that this has happened, i.e. to find the case in the field of failed trials.

(c) We are discussing relatively minor adaptations of known functions, well beyond the FSCI threshold — hybridisation, or breaking down based on small mutations etc. For instance, antibiotic resistance, from a Design Theory view, must be recognised in light of the prior question: how do we get to a functioning bacterium based on coded DNA? (Somehow, the circularity of evolutionary materialism leads ever so many to fail to see that ability to adapt to niches and changes may well be a part of a robust design!)

(d) We see a gross exaggeration of the degree and kind of change involved, e.g. copying of existing info is not creation of new FSCI. A small change in a regulatory component of the genome that shifts how a gene is expressed, is a small change, not a jump in FSCI. Insertion of a viral DNA segment is creation of a copy and transfer to a new context, not innovation of information. Etc.

(e) We see circularity, e.g. the viral DNA is assumed to be of chance origin.

And so forth.

In short, some big questions were silently being begged all along in the discussions and promotions of genetic algorithms as reasonable analogies for body plan level evolution, and in the assertions that blind chance variations plus culling out of the less reproductively successful can account for complex functional organisation and associated information as we see in cell based life.

Let us therefore ask a key question about the state of actual observed evidence: has the suggested gradual emergence of life from an organic chemical stew in some warm little pond or a deep-sea volcano vent or a comet core or a moon of Jupiter, etc, been empirically warranted?

Nope, as the following recent exchange between Orgel and Shapiro will directly confirm — after eighty years of serious trying to substantiate Darwin’s warm little pond suggestion, neither the metabolism first nor the Genes/RNA first approaches work or are even promising:

[Shapiro:] RNA’s building blocks, nucleotides contain a sugar, a phosphate and one of four nitrogen-containing bases as sub-subunits. Thus, each RNA nucleotide contains 9 or 10 carbon atoms, numerous nitrogen and oxygen atoms and the phosphate group, all connected in a precise three-dimensional pattern . . . .  [[S]ome writers have presumed that all of life’s building could be formed with ease in Miller-type experiments and were present in meteorites and other extraterrestrial bodies. This is not the case.A careful examination of the results of the analysis of several meteorites led the scientists who conducted the work to a different conclusion: inanimate nature has a bias toward the formation of molecules made of fewer rather than greater numbers of carbon atoms, and thus shows no partiality in favor of creating the building blocks of our kind of life . . . .To rescue the RNA-first concept from this otherwise lethal defect, its advocates have created a discipline called prebiotic synthesis. They have attempted to show that RNA and its components can be prepared in their laboratories in a sequence of carefully controlled reactions, normally carried out in water at temperatures observed on Earth . . . .Unfortunately, neither chemists nor laboratories were present on the early Earth to produce RNA . . .
[Orgel:] If complex cycles analogous to metabolic cycles could have operated on the primitive Earth, before the appearance of enzymes or other informational polymers, many of the obstacles to the construction of a plausible scenario for the origin of life would disappear . . . .It must be recognized that assessment of the feasibility of any particular proposed prebiotic cycle must depend on arguments about chemical plausibility, rather than on a decision about logical possibility . . . few would believe that any assembly of minerals on the primitive Earth is likely to have promoted these syntheses in significant yield . . . .  Why should one believe that an ensemble of minerals that are capable of catalyzing each of the many steps of [[for instance] the reverse citric acid cycle was present anywhere on the primitive Earth [[8], or that the cycle mysteriously organized itself topographically on a metal sulfide surface [[6]? . . .  Theories of the origin of life based on metabolic cycles cannot be justified by the inadequacy of competing theories: they must stand on their own . . . .  The prebiotic syntheses that have been investigated experimentally almost always lead to the formation of complex mixtures. Proposed polymer replication schemes are unlikely to succeed except with reasonably pure input monomers. No solution of the origin-of-life problem will be possible until the gap between the two kinds of chemistry is closed. Simplification of product mixtures through the self-organization of organic reaction sequences, whether cyclic or not, would help enormously, as would the discovery of very simple replicating polymers. However, solutions offered by supporters of geneticist or metabolist scenarios that are dependent on “if pigs could fly” hypothetical chemistry are unlikely to help.  [[Emphases added.]

Of course, in the three or so years since (and despite occasional declarations to the contrary; whether in this blog or elsewhere . . . ), the case has simply not got any better. [If you doubt me, simply look for the Nobel Prize that has been awarded for the resolution of the OOL challenge in the past few years. To save time, let me give the answer: there simply is none.]

Bottomline: the proposed Darwinian Tree of Life has no tap-root.

Modern presentation of the Darwinian Tree of Life -- note the origin of life bubble at its root, which shows the pivotal importance of the root, the main trunk and branches

No roots, no shoots, and no branches.

[Cont’d. on  p. 2]

Comments
For the sake of honesty, let me add that both D and E may also be coupled with a desire for them to be true or such an ingrained belief. A person may possess the reason, the desire, the belief, or any combination of them. But, unlike A, B, and C, there is the option of relating back to some observed realities. Perhaps that relation is tenuous. You may feel that it is weak. But is something to logic can be anchored, whether or not the conclusion is correct. There is neither logic nor reason to which one can anchor A, B, or C. You may reason that A, B, and C are strawman arguments. They are not. They are summaries of actual arguments. If the summaries seem non-specific, it is exactly because they correspond to what they summarize.ScottAndrews
October 15, 2011
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Scott, you keep missing my point. Let't try another tack: What exactly are you inferring from your identification of codons as symbols?Elizabeth Liddle
October 15, 2011
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Elizabeth, This sums up the disconnect.
If you regard as a “symbol” the molecular output of a cascade of chemical reactions triggered by a molecular input,
The symbols are the inputs, first, and then the outputs. Unless you can explain how a system can output symbols that somehow can be used as inputs to recreate itself.
in response to the chemical environment in which the cell is placed, are synthesised in a sequence and manner that generates, maintains, and causes to function, a self-replicating organism.
What an amazing coincidence! There is no "meaining" in DNA, it just so happens that under the right circumstance it becomes an integral component in the manufacture of a living cell. If there is no meaning in DNA, then how did it come to be in a sequence that just happens to be transcribable into components of a living cell? Ever explanation you offer boils down to, 'how convenient.' That brings us back to the central issue. You're focused on the chemical reactions that depend on these sequences of molecules to output life. You ignore the question of how those molecules came to be so arranged. I propose intent. You propose that they simply came to be arranged. My explanation is rather non-specific. Yours is rather non-existent. I am not stretching the meaning of "symbol" to include DNA molecules. You are contracting and contorting it to exclude them. You now face a demarcation problem. Figure out how to exclude DNA while including half of computer science without begging the question. (For anyone unfamiliar with a demarcation problem, it's this: How do I define music to exclude "rap" without unintentionally excluding something I really do think is music, like a drum solo? I can't. Sometimes using words as placeholders for concepts works. Sometimes is doesn't. And sometimes it reveals that our thoughts are subjective, not objective. We have decided in advance what should or should not fit, and we are working backwards from it. It amounts to, 'Rap isn't music because I don't want it to be,' which in my case is true. Or, 'DNA molecules are not symbols because I do not want them to be.') We don't have a videotape of what happened. We must conclude: A) The egg 'somehow' arranged itself from nothing, not having any foreknowledge of a chicken but somehow producing one anyway. B) The chicken 'somehow' arranged itself from nothing, not having any foreknowledge of its own need to reproduce or knowledge of molecular biology, but somehow quickly invented eggs. C) A and B happened in one step. D) The egg was deliberately arranged with the intent of producing a chicken. E) Both the chicken and its ability to reproduce were deliberately arranged with the intent of producing and reproducing chickens. To avoid offending you, I will use less rhetorical language. Given the sum total of human observation and current accumulation of scientific knowledge, A, B, and C are irrational. There is no logic or reason that leads to those conclusions. There is, at most, a desire for them to be true, or perhaps an ingrained belief that they must be true. D and E require further explanation. But they are the very least not inconsistent with the current state of knowledge. They do correlate to observed realities. They are rational and reasonable. In the context of A, B, and C, DNA molecules are not symbols, according to your definition. In the context of D and E, they are, according to most any definition.ScottAndrews
October 15, 2011
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Already answered, above. Onlookers, note as well the remarks of Gould (cf. p. 2 of OP) on the state of the fossil evidence -- the only direct evidence of the world in the past. Also, Meyer on the Cambrian Revolution. it is obviously not very politically correct to says such, but it is evident that the proposed Darwinian mechanisms -- chance variation and culling out on trial and error and success in niches, etc -- are grossly inadequate to account for major body plans. Mechanisms that can address micro-level adaptation within a body plan [e.g. dogs and wolves, red deer vs North American Elks, interbreeding finch varieties in the Galapagos that have different beaks etc], have been extrapolated on a priorism that imposes non-design answers before the evidence can speak. And yet the FSCI in life, from OOL on, is telling us strongly that the only known source of such is design. The whole scheme of origins science needs to be rethought.kairosfocus
October 15, 2011
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I agree with KF that failure to see objective signs of design in one particular type of objects as opposed to others where design inference is accepted, is exposing a huge ideological bias. This has nothing to do with science.Eugene S
October 15, 2011
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Genetic Algorithms are not hill climbing algorithms. Saying that you are using it in a particular context is a poor excuse for using incorrect terminology. Start by using the correct terminology, then you won't have a problem!
The key take-home lesson is that there simply is no solid empirical foundation for the claim of Darwinian incrementalism on chance variation plus success based domination of eco-niches, as accounting for body plans and the grand branching tree of life.
LOL, apart from all the evidence of course ;)DrBot
October 15, 2011
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Elizabeth, I repeat, not all symbols are intended for human interpretation. We also use them to make machines and computer do what we want them to.
At which point they are not serving as symbols, unless you stretch the meaning of "symbol" so far as to render it unable to take the weight of the argument placed on it. If you regard as a "symbol" the molecular output of a cascade of chemical reactions triggered by a molecular input, then there is no difficulty in accounting for this in terms of simple chemistry, therefore no problem for a materialist account of such a process.
By saying that these particular symbols (or whatever you wish to call them) were not arranged by minds is begging the question. I will beat the poor, dead horse. You can choose to view DNA molecules and proteins as different ends of a chemical reaction. But as I said, there are plenty of automated systems in which electrical impulses are passed back and forth that in turn produce specific reactions.
OK. In that case, what is your point?
To say that just any chain of reactions is necessarily deliberate would be absurd. But when that chain of reactions begins with a fixed set of molecules which can be transcribed to produce and assemble functional components, they evidently do have meaning.
Well, they evidently do result in an assembly that effectively reproduces itself. Calling that "meaning" is, as with "symbol" to stretch the term beyond its capacity to bear your argument. That the cascade results in an entity capable of effective self-replication is not in dispute, and is precisely the reason we have to hand an explanation, namely Darwin's, for the cascade - because cascades that tend to result in a self-replicatively efficient entity will be reproduced, by definition, more often than those that don't.
Here’s a really simple way of looking at it. DNA nucleotides are small, and, by themselves, completely useless. And yet they contain patterns that correspond, somehow, to entire functional living things. (For the sake of argument I struggle not to employ the obvious teleological language.)
No, the patterns don't "correspond, somehow, to entire functional living things". I suggest you listen to this fascinating lecture: http://videolectures.net/eccs07_noble_psb/ Denis Noble has also written a book, but the content of the book is contained in the lecture, so that will save you the trouble of getting the book! A DNA molecule is just a molecule. However, in the context of a cell, it forms a database, which evolutionary biologists would argue has been accumulated over billions of years of evolution, of proteins and other molecules that, in response to the chemical environment in which the cell is placed, are synthesised in a sequence and manner that generates, maintains, and causes to function, a self-replicating organism. The molecule doesn't "represent" a human being, nor yet "correspond" to one, and it certainly can't "create" one. Nor would an alien who came across a notated genome, even if they understood the nucleotides represented by each symbol, be able to retrieve the organism from which it was sequenced.
But when you examine these elements closely, you do not see a miniature version of the corresponding person or animal. Instead, you see patterns consisting of a limited set of molecules. And it doesn’t just mirror the physical elements of the person or thing. It corresponds to all of the states through which it will pass from conception onward and all of the processes which will execute within it.
Well, no, it doesn't. From the DNA molecule you simply cannot read off, not even in principle, "all the states through which [an organism] will pass from conception onwards". Those states depend on a huge amount of additional inputs that are not specified in the DNA.
You can call that series of molecules whatever you want. You can call the process that leads from those molecules to the finished product whatever you want. You can say that a thing only has the appearance of being designed. But to say that patterns of molecules that function like a symbols in a code only appear to be symbols in a code, and then come up with new definitions of “code” and “symbol” that exclude them?
I'm not coming up with a "new definition" of "symbol" (I'm happy to use the word "code" although according to some definitons of "code" DNA is not a "code"). I'm balking at stretching the word to cover something that it does not normally cover, and, if it is stretched to cover it, no longer makes the point you seem to want to make. But for the sake of argument, let's call any molecular entity that forms part of a chemical cascade in which the output molecule is more than one step away from the input molecule a "symbol", if, and only if, the resulting output molecule serves some "function". Right. What do we mean by "function" in the case of a living thing? Well, we seem to mean: causes the entity of which it forms a part to persist over time and/or cause it to self-replicate. OK? So why does such a thing have to have been "designed"? Now we've stretched the meaning of "symbol" so far as to cover a self-perpetuating system, where is the Intelligent Design argument?
Find a definition of “code” that includes the word “mind.” Even the crazy Wikipedia people see it. This is DNA which contains units named genes that can produce proteins through a code (genetic code) in which a series of triplets {codons} of four possible nucleotides are translated into one of twenty possible amino acids. A sequence of codons results in a corresponding sequence of amino acids that form a protein. A symbol is something which represents an idea, a physical entity or a process but is distinct from it. This is DNA which contains units named genes that can produce proteins through a code (genetic code) in which a series of triplets {codons} of four possible nucleotides are translated into one of twenty possible amino acids. A sequence of codons results in a corresponding sequence of amino acids that form a protein. In the genetic code, a stop codon (or termination codon) is a nucleotide triplet within messenger RNA that signals a termination of translation.
As I said, I'm happy to use the word code in regard to DNA, as long as there is then no equivocation with uses of the word in contexts where it is defined in such a way that excludes DNA (and there are). But the word symbol, as you define it above, does not seem to me to cover either DNA or codons, at least not without gross stretching.
They are a symbols forming a code which is translated, and signals to distinguish between messaging units. “atg act cac cga gcg cga agc tga tac tga gtg gct cgc gct tcg act…” in, sand dollars and tulips out. It takes layer upon layer of insulation to protect oneself from knowing it.
Your final sentence is uncivil and unwarranted. Scott: you may use the words as you like; what you may not do, in a rational argument, is use a stretched definition in one part of your argument, then equivocate with that definition in another part. If you want to use the words "code" and "symbol" and "meaning" and "represent" and "correspond" to describe biochemical cascades, fine. But you are not then entitled to use the hoary old chestnut of an argument that "only minds produce codes, therefore DNA was produced by a mind". Right?Elizabeth Liddle
October 15, 2011
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F/N: One of the real problems withthe new format at UD is the lack of a chronological sequence view. That has been requested but we have been informed that will take a fair bit of programming and will not be here in a hurry. So, let us be patient, we are not going to spot comments buried deep in long threads, unless there is a comment at the end that it is there above. (I saw the above comment by accident as I was about to close this tab.)kairosfocus
October 15, 2011
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Dr Bot: Did you see my remark above on context, rooted in Dawkins' Mt Improbable etc and going back over years of discussion? The general context of discussion on GA's etc is that they climb upwards in value on fitness functions. there may be glitches along the way and getting stuck at local but not global maxima or run into saddles, etc etc, but that does not change the material point or context. Please note, that context was set from the opening paragraph of the OP. All of this side tracking is simply distractive. The key take-home lesson is that there simply is no solid empirical foundation for the claim of Darwinian incrementalism on chance variation plus success based domination of eco-niches, as accounting for body plans and the grand branching tree of life. That has been clear for several days now, and well past both 1,000 views and 100 comments. The Darwinian Tree of Life model is groundless, and -- taking in OOL -- rootless. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
October 15, 2011
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Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. ED: Dr BOT, do you want me to cite Shakespeare on who often quotes scripture? In the context where one has a responsible position -- start with parents and their children, one must and is responsible to judge. In short, again, there is an issue of context here. And, yes, you have now crossed the same threshold KH did. Please take some time to think again.DrBot
October 15, 2011
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Dr BOT: Pardon, but you need to pause and rethink both substance and tone just above. In particular, I have made no personal attacks, though I did use a correct descriptive term for the sort of remarks that tried to put in my mouth a rejection of "continental drift" and the like. Corrective description is not personal attack, and has never been. KH reached a point of snideness, where -- in my considered judgement -- I found it appropriate to respond by making my comments directly beneath his/hers; including by referring him to a post at UD and what is in effect a course unit elsewhere that anticipates his/her objections. (It is quite clear where his/her comment ends and mine in response begins.) That is not "defacement." (In particular, I have made no changes to his/her actual remarks, I simply put my responses directly below, once s/he had refused to heed a corrective.) You may not like it, but it is well-merited correction. Your own “shame on you” is out of order, sir. You will further see that I have addressed his and other arguments on the merits, right from the OP on; though in this case hampered by the exigencies of travel and its aftermath. I do not find your remarks just above in much better tone at this point. Please, think again. Good day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
October 15, 2011
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I do not appreciate the distraction and piling on tactic. This is something that is simple and that is easy to understand. At least, until it was turned into a neat talking point to strawmannise. I am decidedly not amused.
KF WHY do you keep launching personal attacks against people asking you for clarification or evidence on the topic under discussion? WHY can't you just respond to arguments on their merits? Cultivating offense at people who disagree with you just makes it look like you have nothing substantial to say in response to the point under discussion, it just serves to poison the atmosphere. The fact that people are disagreeing with your arguments is not because they want to attack you personally, and disagreeing with you is not a personal attack, despite what you have said in the past about this! People like me, EL etc are disagreeing with you because your arguments are unconvincing. Get over yourself and deal with it!DrBot
October 15, 2011
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This is why I have been quite annoyed at the rhetorical talking point that GA’s do not use hill-climbing that appears above in this thread.
Why don't you start with the wikipedia page on hill climbing algorithms. This is not a rhetorical distinction - it is an important distinction that defines what the algorithm does, and does not, as compared to a GA. I'm afraid you cannot just re-write these distinctions to suit yourself. You need to acquire a proper understanding of these algorithms and the technical language that scientists use to distinguish them if you want to engage in a rational debate about them with me. I have taught aspects of this at University and if a student used terminology the same way you do I would correct them - because it is wrong! GA's don't just climb hills, they navigate very complex multidimensional fitness surfaces. They go up and down, traverse valleys and neutral plains. All things that hill climbing algorithms find hard.DrBot
October 14, 2011
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KF, Please, lay off the dismissive, grossly exaggerated generalities that play off strawman dismissals and address the substantial issues on the table. You are now even editing other peoples comments to add in your own personal attacks. You are the one having problems with their tone. Please address peoples arguments on their merits rather than just dismissing them with rhetoric and defacing their posts. Shame on you.DrBot
October 14, 2011
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F/N; Updates added on p1 -- a "typical" fitness function illustrated as a mesh, and on p 2 -- the Hox genes in body plan development at Sci Daily.kairosfocus
October 14, 2011
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KH: Please, lay off the dismissive, grossly exaggerated generalities that play off strawman dismissals and address the substantial issues on the table. (And that is again a big slice of your tone problem.) The just above in light of the OP should be a good start, if you need a fresh start. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
October 14, 2011
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F/N: On Climbing "Mt Improbable," Dawkinsian hill climbing and GA's Wiki notes on Dawkins' 1996 book:
Climbing Mount Improbable is a 1996 popular science book by Richard Dawkins. The book is about probability and how it applies to the theory of evolution, and specifically is designed to debunk claims by creationists about the probability of naturalistic mechanisms like natural selection. The main metaphorical treatment is of a geographical landscape, upon which evolution can only ascend in a gradual way, not being able to climb cliffs (this is known as an adaptive landscape). In the book he gives various ideas about a seemingly complex mechanism coming about from many different gradual steps, that were previously unseen . . .
This of course builds on his infamous Weasel, of 1986 that introduced the notion of "cumulative selection." It is also closely related to the way GA's are designed and are presented as mimics of "evolution." Namely, per Wiki again:
In a genetic algorithm, a population of strings (called chromosomes or the genotype of the genome), which encode candidate solutions (called individuals, creatures, or phenotypes) to an optimization problem, evolves toward better solutions. Traditionally, solutions are represented in binary as strings of 0s and 1s, but other encodings are also possible. The evolution usually starts from a population of randomly generated individuals and happens in generations. In each generation, the fitness of every individual in the population is evaluated, multiple individuals are stochastically selected from the current population (based on their fitness), and modified (recombined and possibly randomly mutated) to form a new population. The new population is then used in the next iteration of the algorithm. Commonly, the algorithm terminates when either a maximum number of generations has been produced, or a satisfactory fitness level has been reached for the population.
In that light, we should also note the way Wiki describes varieties of the more specific, narrow-sense computer Science Hill-Climbing algorithms (as linked from the Original Post, 1st paragraph):
In computer science, hill climbing is a mathematical optimization technique which belongs to the family of local search. It is an iterative algorithm that starts with an arbitrary solution to a problem, then attempts to find a better solution by incrementally changing a single element of the solution. If the change produces a better solution, an incremental change is made to the new solution, repeating until no further improvements can be found . . . . In simple hill climbing, the first closer node is chosen, whereas in steepest ascent hill climbing all successors are compared and the closest to the solution is chosen. Both forms fail if there is no closer node, which may happen if there are local maxima in the search space which are not solutions. Steepest ascent hill climbing is similar to best-first search, which tries all possible extensions of the current path instead of only one. Stochastic hill climbing does not examine all neighbors before deciding how to move. Rather, it selects a neighbor at random, and decides (based on the amount of improvement in that neighbor) whether to move to that neighbor or to examine another. Random-restart hill climbing is a meta-algorithm built on top of the hill climbing algorithm. It is also known as Shotgun hill climbing. It iteratively does hill-climbing, each time with a random initial condition x0. The best xm is kept: if a new run of hill climbing produces a better xm than the stored state, it replaces the stored state. Random-restart hill climbing is a surprisingly effective algorithm in many cases. It turns out that it is often better to spend CPU time exploring the space, than carefully optimizing from an initial condition. [ --> This is of course connected to the novelty search idea in the OP]
In this light -- given the context of the OP that begins:
Ever since Dawkins’ Mt Improbable analogy, a common argument of design objectors has been that such complex designs as we see in life forms can “easily” be achieved incrementally, by steps within plausible reach of chance processes, that are then stamped in by success, i.e. by hill-climbing. Success, measured by reproductive advantage and what used to be called “survival of the fittest.” Weasel’s “cumulative selection” algorithm was the classic — and deeply flawed, even outright misleading — illustration . . .
-- it should have been quite clear from the outset just what context of "hill Climbing" was being used; a quite broad one that includes but is not limited tot he more narrow sense. This is why I have been quite annoyed at the rhetorical talking point that GA's do not use hill-climbing that appears above in this thread. The plain answer is that hey are ascending the slopes of a fitness landscape, using methods that do climb hills, similar to Dawkins' general notions presented in his 1986 and 1996 works under the themes "Weasel" and Mt Improbable." So, simple reading in context with a reasonable attitude would have shown that he issue is a mole-hill not a mountain. I trust that further discussions by objectors will now cease from the distractive strawman and piling on tactics that appear above. The further key point, is that the crucial issue is not adaptation within islands of function, but the arrival at the shorelines of islands of function. The objectors above have acknowledged explicitly -- indeed,they seem to say they were in effect insisting on it all along -- that GA's operate within continuous, trendy hill-range like domains. The current biggie objections are, first, that evolution is not about origin of life. To which, I reply: tell that to the zoo and museum staff, the artists and scientists preparing tree of life diagrams, the textbook [including college textbook] writers, and Darwin's ghost with his letter on the warm little pond (by then he full well knew he would be the subject of major biographies and his correspondence would play a key role in that) tabled in evidence. I further point out that the OOL problem is pivotal to the whole scheme so the hiving off of the fact that the Darwinist tree of life has no root seems a very convenient way to dodge a crucial issue. The origin of the reproductive capacity that is the basis for the claimed power to evolve novel body plans by so-called natural so-called selection. (These terms are pretty slippery when we ask for empirically anchored, well-warranted clarification, with questions on circularity coming tot the fore, connected to a raft of other issues.) So, the OOL issue is about the origin of cell based life body plan no 1. It turns out that this needs a metabolic mechanism joined to a symbolic, nanomachine driven self replicator under the von Neumann self-replicator [vNSR] architecture. Such a vNSR, in turn is irreducibly complex, rooted in codes and algorithms, and is dependent on the prior existence of symbolism, language and the like; also being well beyond the 500 - 1,000 bit FSCI threshold. These strongly point to the living cell being a work of ART, i.e design. When we look at the creation of other, more complex body plans, we are looking at the embryological development process, with the sort of hox algorithm just described being implicated, in the context of a wider step by step preprogrammed process that leads from a generalised initial cell to a structured and viable body plan, where random chance variations expressed early enough in development to affect body plans are strongly likely to be fatal. This process is FSCI rich and is full of candidate irreducibly complex features. That is, we are looking at credible islands of specific function deeply isolated in vast seas of non-function. Protein fold domains and the 1 in 10^70 or thereabouts estimates on recent investigations can stand in, as can the identified irreducible complexity of the bacterial flagellum as tested by Minnich and co. So, the reasonable -- not Lewontinian a priori materialist -- view is that the living cell is designed, and the major body plans are likewise designed and made to be adaptable within islands of function. Which makes sense for robustness and sustainability in the face of a variable environment, within a given time, and over the long haul of time. So, the ball is back int eh court of the Darweinist objectors: show us evidence in its own right that we are not dealing with islands of function [this would for instance include providing empirically anchored refutations of Gould's remarks on the trade secret of paleontology] but a continent of life with smoothly cumulative evolution at macro level leading to an empirically observed tree of life. This last will require a sound answer to the Cambrian life revolution challenge. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
October 14, 2011
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Elizabeth, A further note, and I will try not to post repeating Wikipedia quotes. It goes beyond the ability to translate a series of repeating molecules into a functional physical entity which in no way resembles the molecules that represent it. If we could understand the meaning of every single gene, know which ones were functional and which were not, and exactly how they are processed, we could create that same entity in the abstract sense. We could write down alphabetic representations of those molecules on lots and lots of paper, read them back, and then write down on another every detail of the organism it represents. You could draw a picture of the organism or make a sculpture from that information. You could do the converse and write your own genetic code to express a living thing, and then choose whether to implement it or just imagine it. The information can exist separately from the molecules that contain it. The use of a code, in turn, means forward thinking. A code can be likened to a tool. Having a hammer when you need to hammer a nail is never a happy coincidence. You foresaw the need for one and purchased or borrowed it. Or stole it. Someone else foresaw that need and manufactured it. Were it not for awareness of that need, there would be no hammers, period. Similarly, a code is useless without a need to represent or communicate something. An inanimate object can never have that need. It just is, and then eventually it isn't. It is not somehow gifted with an ability to abstract anything, including itself. It's always the same story in the end. Either someone made the hammers and the nails to fulfill a purpose, or the hammers and nails just decided to start hammering and getting hammered for no apparent reason. I can't imagine how much effort it must take to maintain a worldview in which houses build themselves.ScottAndrews
October 14, 2011
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KF, Can you give an example of what specifically would satisfy you with regard to the evolution of "bodyplans"? I.E would organism A evolving into a slightly bigger form satisfy you? Or would it be something more significant? A new ability? A new appendage? What *exactly* is the minimum difference from one “bodyplan” to another that needs to be demonstrated here that you would accept as evidence? And what timescale would that evidence be generated over? Given you know exactly how slow evolution usually is when compared to the human lifespan? As presumably new evidence would need to be generated as you've written off all existing evidence in favor of "bodyplan" evolution already. So I'm hoping you are not asking for evidence of "bodyplan to bodyplan" evolution that could only be generated long after we're both dead and buried. If you in fact are asking for such, then I guess you don't believe in continental drift either. ED: This note, especially in the last paragraph, aptly illustrates the tone problem KH has. Evidently s/he is not cognizant of the significance of empirical observation in moving from speculative philosophy to empirically warranted science, including origins science. It is suggested that s/he read here and here in the IOSE before making further snide remarks on scientific methodology and things like plate tectonics -- which is based on significant direct observation of subduction and spreading zones, volcanism and earthquakes etc. On the body plan origin challenge, had KH read p. 2 of the OP, it would have made it clear that the exhibit no 1 for 150 years has been the Cambrian life Revolution, at phylum and sub-phylum levels; OOL i.e. of cell based body plan 1, is exhibit 2. For a lower end example the origin of the bird's wings and flight mechanism, or the whale and the bat's echolocation mechanism [including the close resemblance], and the origin of the human verbal linguistic capacity would be examples.kellyhomes
October 14, 2011
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Can you give an example of what form such evidence would take? I.E would organism A evolving into a slightly bigger form satisfy you? Or would it be something more significant? A new ability? A new appendage? What exactly is the minimum difference from one "bodyplan" to another that needs to be demonstrated here?kellyhomes
October 14, 2011
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Elizabeth, I repeat, not all symbols are intended for human interpretation. We also use them to make machines and computer do what we want them to. By saying that these particular symbols (or whatever you wish to call them) were not arranged by minds is begging the question. I will beat the poor, dead horse. You can choose to view DNA molecules and proteins as different ends of a chemical reaction. But as I said, there are plenty of automated systems in which electrical impulses are passed back and forth that in turn produce specific reactions. To say that just any chain of reactions is necessarily deliberate would be absurd. But when that chain of reactions begins with a fixed set of molecules which can be transcribed to produce and assemble functional components, they evidently do have meaning. Here's a really simple way of looking at it. DNA nucleotides are small, and, by themselves, completely useless. And yet they contain patterns that correspond, somehow, to entire functional living things. (For the sake of argument I struggle not to employ the obvious teleological language.) But when you examine these elements closely, you do not see a miniature version of the corresponding person or animal. Instead, you see patterns consisting of a limited set of molecules. And it doesn't just mirror the physical elements of the person or thing. It corresponds to all of the states through which it will pass from conception onward and all of the processes which will execute within it. You can call that series of molecules whatever you want. You can call the process that leads from those molecules to the finished product whatever you want. You can say that a thing only has the appearance of being designed. But to say that patterns of molecules that function like a symbols in a code only appear to be symbols in a code, and then come up with new definitions of "code" and "symbol" that exclude them? Find a definition of "code" that includes the word "mind." Even the crazy Wikipedia people see it.
This is DNA which contains units named genes that can produce proteins through a code (genetic code) in which a series of triplets {codons} of four possible nucleotides are translated into one of twenty possible amino acids. A sequence of codons results in a corresponding sequence of amino acids that form a protein.
A symbol is something which represents an idea, a physical entity or a process but is distinct from it.
This is DNA which contains units named genes that can produce proteins through a code (genetic code) in which a series of triplets {codons} of four possible nucleotides are translated into one of twenty possible amino acids. A sequence of codons results in a corresponding sequence of amino acids that form a protein.
In the genetic code, a stop codon (or termination codon) is a nucleotide triplet within messenger RNA that signals a termination of translation.
They are a symbols forming a code which is translated, and signals to distinguish between messaging units. "atg act cac cga gcg cga agc tga tac tga gtg gct cgc gct tcg act..." in, sand dollars and tulips out. It takes layer upon layer of insulation to protect oneself from knowing it.ScottAndrews
October 14, 2011
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KF,
There is a reason why from the FSCI involved, we know credibly that symbolic, algorithmic systems point to their source in a mind like a compass to the north pole.
So if I give you a 'symbolic, algorithmic system' can you put a specific value on the FSCI contained within it and explain how you obtained that figure? Presumably you have a worked example to hand, otherwise on what basis are you making that claim? Care to provide it? ED: KH would profit by considering the UD post here and onward discussions over the past 6 months or so. In addition, s/he should take time to work through say Abel's peer-reviewed paper on the universal plausibility bound, here.kellyhomes
October 14, 2011
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KF,
Please, adjust tone.
I saw notihing approching "tone" in any of the post you are complaining about. What I saw was a cogent point by point dismantling of all your primary claims which you obviously are unwilling or more likely unable to rebut. In fact the only person I see here doing anything approximating "tone" is you, by dismissing well argued points by pretending to take offense but then continuing to argue as if no counter arguments had in fact been made, as if no counter points had in fact been made you are not fooling anyone. You are simply looking more and more foolish. More and more panicked.
Next, the issue of a narrow island of function is a direct matter of the nature of coded algorithms vs the set of possibilities for strings of digits of the same length not so constrained.
This illustrates your fundamental misunderstanding. Except you have been corrected on it so many times it cannot possibly be due to ignorance any more. So, these rare "islands of function" you claim provide the "evidence" for ID don't in fact exist at all. You know nothing of the fitness landscapes of early, first or in fact any living organism or component thereof. Your definition of "landscape" is on the same order as your definition of FSCI, simply a comparison of one string against a randomly generated string of the same length. One arrangement of proteins against all possible arrangements. The only person talking about a tornado in a junkyard is you.
the a priori materialism that has driven the demand that we see algorithmic programming like this as a product of blind chance and mechanical necessity
Nobody is forcing *you* to see anything any way other then you want to. So why don't you stop wasting your time here making the same TLDR arguments over and over with Darwinists who never seem to be convinced by them and see where seeing algorithmic programming like in life as something other then a product of blind chance and mechanical necessity? Perhaps you could get some paper published, I understand there are some active ID journals desperately looking for papers to publish. I'd not worry too much about their peer review process. Go for it! ED: The just above, regrettably, is a capital example of the snide dismissiveness I have pointed out above. There is a case to be addressed on the merits, not simply brushed aside on strawamannish dismissals embedding a supercilious sneering tone [such as asserting that I am panicking, of all things!], cf. my onward remark below for just one example on the merits issues. FYI, KH, matters of warrant are not decided on strawman tactic rhetorical objections such as are too common in general and are all too evident above from defenders of Darwin. Instead, each view has to be justified on the relevant observational facts and on cogent reasoning; so the issue is that we need to see the root for the tree of life and for the claimed major body plan level branching justified on Darwinian Incrementalism; which justification -- after two to three days and well past 1,000 views and over 100 comments [including by NCSE's former PR person] -- is still conspicuously absent. (The absence of Nobel prizes on the OOL and the explanation of the Cambrian Life Revolution, etc, should provide clues to the actual state on the merits. Cf the mutually ruinous exchange between Orgel and Shapiro as cited in the OP and the critical remarks on the Cambrian revolution by Meyer. Gould's deathbed counsel to the fields of paleontology and evolutionary biology -- also cited -- should also be reckoned with.) As for fitness landscapes, it is by now notorious that GA's operate within islands of function, i.e carefully designed zones where trends of fitness leading to at least local peaks can be picked up by varying a so-called genome. In addition, it should be quite plain that cell based, C-Chemistry metabolising life using DNA and associated mechanisms uses proteins that come from deeply isolated fold domains [ 1 in 10^70 or thereabouts of the AA sequence space], that the vNSR-based replicator mechanism is irreducibly complex and dependent on algorithms and language, thus moves us to very specific zones in the space for strings of symbols of the relevant length, and that functionally specific, complex information, in general, cannot be had on the cheap by chance variation of strings that create languages, codes, algorithms and executing machinery by trial and error on the gamut of our observed cosmos. We hardly need to stress that the only empirically known source of codes, algorithms, symbolic communication systems and machinery that executes such is intelligence; other than to highlight that this inductively warrants the strong inference that such are empirically reliable signs of intelligent action. To date, we find many dismissive and strawmannish objections, but no provision of actual empirical warrant for the notion that a warm little pond of plausible chemistry or the equivalent can spontaneously lead to C-chemistry, aqueous medium, metabolic, von Neuman self replicator, life. Nor, for the further notion that such life would spontaneously evolve major novel body plans, on observation of cases X, Y, Z. Instead we see the "always on the attack" default to Darwin question-begging approach that is ever so familiar. KH should also read the onward comments on further posts s/he has made, and the main response on Mt Improbable below.kellyhomes
October 14, 2011
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No, I am not "begging the question" kf. I am making no inferences about the "source" of the sequence. I am talking about what reads the sequence, and, in the case of a self-replicating molecule, it isn't a thing with a mind, and which therefore can only "read" it (scare quotes deliberate) in the medium in which it is cast. It cannot "read" it if it is instead printed in ink or moulded in playdough. That's because it isn't a symbol, it's just a polymeric molecule with a particular sequence of bases.Elizabeth Liddle
October 14, 2011
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Dr Liddle, from memory on the defn of engg: using the forces and materials of nature, in light of skill, knowledge and economic considerations, to produce designs -- objects, processed, etc -- for the benefit of humanity. Of course, chemistry is used in engineering, as is physics, as is electricity as is materials science -- semiconductors especially -- etc. That is a component of engineering. If you object that "straightforward" chemical forces and processes are at work, you might as well object to how a car engine works off simple combustion under controlled circumstances as thought hat disproves the design of a car engine. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
October 14, 2011
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Dr Liddle, you are simply begging the question. There is a reason why from the FSCI involved, we know credibly that symbolic, algorithmic systems point to their source in a mind like a compass to the north pole. Please think about the significance of a tested, reliable sign and what it credibly points to. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
October 14, 2011
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Okay, there is no symbolic layer in a computer either. It’s just electricity being conducted according to natural laws.
Scott, computers are full of symbolic layers! We would not be able to use them if they weren't! But again, those symbols are assigned by minds, then read off by minds. That's the sense in which they are symbols. Not only that, but you could run exactly the same computation in any medium, including black and white stones, if you had worlds enough and time. The same is not true of the chemical reaction that is in a molecule.Elizabeth Liddle
October 14, 2011
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Well, no, I must disagree that they are "utterly irrelevant to biology". Although of course I quite agree that they are designed. My point was simply that they reproduce through straightforward chemistry.Elizabeth Liddle
October 14, 2011
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Elizabeth,
But symbols in Ink, paper fibers etc are read by things with minds!
Symbols in electronic impulses are not. We make things that talk to each other. Computers and switches and routers keep on going even when people aren't paying attention. The microprocessor in my computer can only read instructions fed to in a very specific medium. But you could write those same instructions on paper or even memorize them.
In other words there is simply no symbolic layer in either translation or transcription processes in the cell.
Okay, there is no symbolic layer in a computer either. It's just electricity being conducted according to natural laws. Why would that be true of one and not of the other? And don't answer because one is designed or there is no mind, etc. That's begging the question.ScottAndrews
October 14, 2011
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It isn't a distraction, kf, and nor is it "piling on". I just wanted to make sure that point was established. As long as by "hill-climbing algorithm" you include evolutionary algorithms that can go down hill as well as up, we are on the same page. I didn't mean to offend you, I was just trying to establish common ground.Elizabeth Liddle
October 14, 2011
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