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Axe on specific barriers to macro-level Darwinian Evolution due to protein formation (and linked islands of specific function)

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A week ago, VJT put up a useful set of excerpts from Axe’s 2010 paper on proteins and barriers they pose to Darwinian, blind watchmaker thesis evolution. During onward discussions, it proved useful to focus on some excerpts where Axe spoke to some numerical considerations and the linked idea of islands of specific function deeply isolated in AA sequence and protein fold domain space, though he did not use those exact terms.

I think it worth the while to headline the clips, for reference (instead of leaving them deep in a discussion thread):

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ABSTRACT: >> Four decades ago, several scientists suggested that the impossibility of any evolutionary process sampling anything but a miniscule fraction of the possible protein sequences posed a problem for the evolution of new proteins. This potential problem—the sampling problem—was largely ignored, in part because those who raised it had to rely on guesswork to fill some key gaps in their understanding of proteins. The huge advances since that time call for a care -ful reassessment of the issue they raised. Focusing specifically on the origin of new protein folds, I argue here that the sampling problem remains. The difficulty stems from the fact that new protein functions, when analyzed at the level of new beneficial phenotypes, typically require multiple new protein folds, which in turn require long stretches of new protein sequence. Two conceivable ways for this not to pose an insurmountable barrier to Darwinian searches exist. One is that protein function might generally be largely indifferent to protein sequence. The other is that rela-tively simple manipulations of existing genes, such as shuffling of genetic modules, might be able to produce the necessary new folds. I argue that these ideas now stand at odds both with known principles of protein structure and with direct experimental evidence . . . >>

Pp 5 – 6: >> . . . we need to quantify a boundary value for m, meaning a value which, if exceeded, would solve the whole sampling problem. To get this we begin by estimating the maximum number of opportunities for spontane-ous mutations to produce any new species-wide trait, meaning a trait that is fixed within the population through natural selection (i.e., selective sweep). Bacterial species are most conducive to this because of their large effective population sizes. 3 So let us assume, generously, that an ancient bacterial species sustained an effective population size of 10 ^10 individuals [26] while passing through 10^4 generations per year. After five billion years, such a species would produce a total of 5 × 10 ^ 23 (= 5 × 10^ 9 x 10^4 x 10 ^10 ) cells that happen (by chance) to avoid the small-scale extinction events that kill most cells irrespective of fitness. These 5 × 10 ^23 ‘lucky survivors’ are the cells available for spontaneous muta-tions to accomplish whatever will be accomplished in the species. This number, then, sets the maximum probabilistic resources that can be expended on a single adaptive step. Or, to put this another way, any adaptive step that is unlikely to appear spontaneously in that number of cells is unlikely to have evolved in the entire history of the species.

In real bacterial populations, spontaneous mutations occur in only a small fraction of the lucky survivors (roughly one in 300 [27]). As a generous upper limit, we will assume that all lucky survivors happen to receive mutations in portions of the genome that are not constrained by existing functions 4 , making them free to evolve new ones. At most, then, the number of different viable genotypes that could appear within the lucky survivors is equal to their number, which is 5 × 10^ 23 . And again, since many of the genotype differences would not cause distinctly new proteins to be produced, this serves as an upper bound on the number of new protein sequences that a bacterial species may have sampled in search of an adaptive new protein structure.

Let us suppose for a moment, then, that protein sequences that produce new functions by means of new folds are common enough for success to be likely within that number of sampled sequences. Taking a new 300-residue structure as a basis for calculation (I show this to be modest below), we are effectively supposing that the multiplicity factor m introduced in the previous section can be as large as 20 ^300 / 5×10^ 23 ~ 10 ^366 . In other words, we are supposing that particular functions requiring a 300-residue structure are real-izable through something like 10 ^366 distinct amino acid sequences. If that were so, what degree of sequence degeneracy would be implied? More specifically, if 1 in 5×10 23 full-length sequences are supposed capable of performing the function in question, then what proportion of the twenty amino acids would have to be suit-able on average at any given position? The answer is calculated as the 300 th root of (5×10 23 ) -1 , which amounts to about 83%, or 17 of the 20 amino acids. That is, by the current assumption proteins would have to provide the function in question by merely avoid-ing three or so unacceptable amino acids at each position along their lengths.

No study of real protein functions suggests anything like this degree of indifference to sequence. In evaluating this, keep in mind that the indifference referred to here would have to charac-terize the whole protein rather than a small fraction of it. Natural proteins commonly tolerate some sequence change without com- plete loss of function, with some sites showing more substitutional freedom than others. But this does not imply that most mutations are harmless. Rather, it merely implies that complete inactivation with a single amino acid substitution is atypical when the start-ing point is a highly functional wild-type sequence (e.g., 5% of single substitutions were completely inactivating in one study [28]). This is readily explained by the capacity of well-formed structures to sustain moderate damage without complete loss of function (a phenomenon that has been termed the buffering effect [25]). Conditional tolerance of that kind does not extend to whole proteins, though, for the simple reason that there are strict limits to the amount of damage that can be sustained.

A study of the cumulative effects of conservative amino acid substitutions, where the replaced amino acids are chemically simi-lar to their replacements, has demonstrated this [23]. Two unrelat-ed bacterial enzymes, a ribonuclease and a beta-lactamase, were both found to suffer complete loss of function in vivo at or near the point of 10% substitution, despite the conservative nature of the changes. Since most substitutions would be more disruptive than these conservative ones, it is clear that these protein functions place much more stringent demands on amino acid sequences than the above supposition requires.

Two experimental studies provide reliable data for estimating the proportion of protein sequences that perform specified func -tions [–> note the terms] . One study focused on the AroQ-type chorismate mutase, which is formed by the symmetrical association of two identical 93-residue chains [24]. These relatively small chains form a very simple folded structure (Figure 5A). The other study examined a 153-residue section of a 263-residue beta-lactamase [25]. That section forms a compact structural component known as a domain within the folded structure of the whole beta-lactamase (Figure 5B). Compared to the chorismate mutase, this beta-lactamase do-main has both larger size and a more complex fold structure.

In both studies, large sets of extensively mutated genes were produced and tested. By placing suitable restrictions on the al-lowed mutations and counting the proportion of working genes that result, it was possible to estimate the expected prevalence of working sequences for the hypothetical case where those restric-tions are lifted. In that way, prevalence values far too low to be measured directly were estimated with reasonable confidence.

The results allow the average fraction of sampled amino acid substitutions that are functionally acceptable at a single amino acid position to be calculated. By raising this fraction to the power l, it is possible to estimate the overall fraction of working se-quences expected when l positions are simultaneously substituted (see reference 25 for details). Applying this approach to the data from the chorismate mutase and the beta-lactamase experiments gives a range of values (bracketed by the two cases) for the preva-lence of protein sequences that perform a specified function. The reported range [25] is one in 10 ^77 (based on data from the more complex beta-lactamase fold; l = 153) to one in 10 ^53 (based on the data from the simpler chorismate mutase fold, adjusted to the same length: l = 153). As remarkable as these figures are, par-ticularly when interpreted as probabilities, they were not without precedent when reported [21, 22]. Rather, they strengthened an existing case for thinking that even very simple protein folds can place very severe constraints on sequence.  [–> Islands of function issue.]

Rescaling the figures to reflect a more typical chain length of 300 residues gives a prevalence range of one in 10 ^151 to one in 10 ^104 . On the one hand, this range confirms the very highly many-to-one mapping of sequences to functions. The corresponding range of m values is 10 ^239 (=20 ^300 /10 ^151 ) to 10 ^286 (=20 ^300 /10 ^104 ), meaning that vast numbers of viable sequence possibilities exist for each protein function. But on the other hand it appears that these functional sequences are nowhere near as common as they would have to be in order for the sampling problem to be dis-missed. The shortfall is itself a staggering figure—some 80 to 127 orders of magnitude (comparing the above prevalence range to the cutoff value of 1 in 5×10 23 ). So it appears that even when m is taken into account, protein sequences that perform particular functions are far too rare to be found by random sampling.>>

Pp 9 – 11: >> . . . If aligned but non-matching residues are part-for-part equivalents, then we should be able to substitute freely among these equivalent pairs without impair-ment. Yet when protein sequences were even partially scrambled in this way, such that the hybrids were about 90% identical to one of the parents, none of them had detectable function. Considering the sensitivity of the functional test, this implies the hybrids had less than 0.1% of normal activity [23]. So part-for-part equiva-lence is not borne out at the level of amino acid side chains.

In view of the dominant role of side chains in forming the bind-ing interfaces for higher levels of structure, it is hard to see how those levels can fare any better. Recognizing the non-generic [–> that is specific and context sensitive] na-ture of side chain interactions, Voigt and co-workers developed an algorithm that identifies portions of a protein structure that are most nearly self-contained in the sense of having the fewest side-chain contacts with the rest of the fold [49]. Using that algorithm, Meyer and co-workers constructed and tested 553 chimeric pro-teins that borrow carefully chosen blocks of sequence (putative modules) from any of three natural beta lactamases [50]. They found numerous functional chimeras within this set, which clearly supports their assumption that modules have to have few side chain contacts with exterior structure if they are to be transport-Able.

At the same time, though, their results underscore the limita-tions of structural modularity. Most plainly, the kind of modular-ity they demonstrated is not the robust kind that would be needed to explain new protein folds. The relatively high sequence simi-larity (34–42% identity [50]) and very high structural similarity of the parent proteins (Figure 8) favors successful shuffling of modules by conserving much of the overall structural context. Such conservative transfer of modules does not establish the ro-bust transportability that would be needed to make new folds. Rather, in view of the favorable circumstances, it is striking how low the success rate was. After careful identification of splice sites that optimize modularity, four out of five tested chimeras were found to be completely non-functional, with only one in nine being comparable in activity to the parent enzymes [50]. In other words, module-like transportability is unreliable even under extraordinarily favorable circumstances [–> these are not generally speaking standard bricks that will freely fit together in any freely plug- in compatible pattern to assemble a new structure] . . . .

Graziano and co-workers have tested robust modularity directly by using amino acid sequences from natural alpha helices, beta strands, and loops (which connect helices and/or strands) to con-struct a large library of gene segments that provide these basic structural elements in their natural genetic contexts [52]. For those elements to work as robust modules, their structures would have to be effectively context-independent, allowing them to be com-bined in any number of ways to form new folds. A vast number of combinations was made by random ligation of the gene segments, but a search through 10^8 variants for properties that may be in-dicative of folded structure ultimately failed to identify any folded proteins. After a definitive demonstration that the most promising candidates were not properly folded, the authors concluded that “the selected clones should therefore not be viewed as ‘native-like’ proteins but rather ‘molten-globule-like’” [52], by which they mean that secondary structure is present only transiently, flickering in and out of existence along a compact but mobile chain. This contrasts with native-like structure, where secondary structure is locked-in to form a well defined and stable tertiary Fold . . . .

With no discernable shortcut to new protein folds, we conclude that the sampling problem really is a problem for evolutionary accounts of their origins. The final thing to consider is how per-vasive this problem is . . . Continuing to use protein domains as the basis of analysis, we find that domains tend to be about half the size of complete protein chains (compare Figure 10 to Figure 1), implying that two domains per protein chain is roughly typical. This of course means that the space of se-quence possibilities for an average domain, while vast, is nowhere near as vast as the space for an average chain. But as discussed above, the relevant sequence space for evolutionary searches is determined by the combined length of all the new domains needed to produce a new beneficial phenotype. [–> Recall, courtesy Wiki, phenotype: “the composite of an organism’s observable characteristics or traits, such as its morphology, development, biochemical or physiological properties, phenology, behavior, and products of behavior (such as a bird’s nest). A phenotype results from the expression of an organism’s genes as well as the influence of environmental factors and the interactions between the two.”]

As a rough way of gauging how many new domains are typi-cally required for new adaptive phenotypes, the SUPERFAMILY database [54] can be used to estimate the number of different protein domains employed in individual bacterial species, and the EcoCyc database [10] can be used to estimate the number of metabolic processes served by these domains. Based on analysis of the genomes of 447 bacterial species 11, the projected number of different domain structures per species averages 991 (12) . Compar-ing this to the number of pathways by which metabolic processes are carried out, which is around 263 for E. coli,13 provides a rough figure of three or four new domain folds being needed, on aver-age, for every new metabolic pathway 14 . In order to accomplish this successfully, an evolutionary search would need to be capable of locating sequences that amount to anything from one in 10 ^159 to one in 10 ^308 possibilities 15 , something the neo-Darwinian model falls short of by a very wide margin. >>
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Those who argue for incrementalism or exaptation and fortuitous coupling or Lego brick-like modularity or the like need to address these and similar issues. END

PS: Just for the objectors eager to queue up, just remember, the Darwinism support essay challenge on actual evidence for the tree of life from the root up to the branches and twigs is still open after over two years, with the following revealing Smithsonian Institution diagram showing the first reason why, right at the root of the tree of life:

Darwin-ToL-full-size-copy

No root, no shoots, folks.  (Where, the root must include a viable explanation of gated encapsulation, protein based metabolism and cell functions, code based protein assembly and the von Neumann self replication facility keyed to reproducing the cell.)

Comments
ppolish
MT, the question of “How did God do it” has driven spectacular Science throughout the ages. Don’t diss the strength of the HDGDI? question.
bornagain
actually me-think, contrary to what you believe, without God as the basis for reasoning, there could be no arguing whether a point is valid or not in the first place,,,
That's true and I am not contesting that point at all but please don't bring in God as an explanation, unless you think God is the ID agent.Me_Think
November 15, 2014
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keith s, you live in a fantasy land. Advances in molecular biology continue to reveal deeper, and deeper, levels of integrated functional complexity in life, that our best engineers and computer programmers can only dream of imitating, and Darwinian processes have yet to change even one bacteria, or fruit fly, into another bacteria, or fruit fly, despite decades of trying to force bacteria, or fruit flies, to change into something different. ========= Scant search for the Maker Excerpt: But where is the experimental evidence? None exists in the literature claiming that one species has been shown to evolve into another. Bacteria, the simplest form of independent life, are ideal for this kind of study, with generation times of 20 to 30 minutes, and populations achieved after 18 hours. But throughout 150 years of the science of bacteriology, there is no evidence that one species of bacteria has changed into another, in spite of the fact that populations have been exposed to potent chemical and physical mutagens and that, uniquely, bacteria possess extrachromosomal, transmissible plasmids. Since there is no evidence for species changes between the simplest forms of unicellular life, it is not surprising that there is no evidence for evolution from prokaryotic to eukaryotic cells, let alone throughout the whole array of higher multicellular organisms. - Alan H. Linton - emeritus professor of bacteriology, University of Bristol. http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=159282 'No matter what we do to a fruit fly embryo there are only three possible outcomes, a normal fruit fly, a defective fruit fly, or a dead fruit fly. What we never see is primary speciation much less macro-evolution' – Jonathan Wells Peer-Reviewed Research Paper on Plant Biology Favorably Cites Intelligent Design and Challenges Darwinian Evolution - Casey Luskin December 29, 2010 Excerpt: Many of these researchers also raise the question (among others), why — even after inducing literally billions of induced mutations and (further) chromosome rearrangements — all the important mutation breeding programs have come to an end in the Western World instead of eliciting a revolution in plant breeding, either by successive rounds of selective “micromutations” (cumulative selection in the sense of the modern synthesis), or by “larger mutations” … and why the law of recurrent variation is endlessly corroborated by the almost infinite repetition of the spectra of mutant phenotypes in each and any new extensive mutagenesis experiment instead of regularly producing a range of new systematic species… (Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig, “Mutagenesis in Physalis pubescens L. ssp. floridana: Some Further Research on Dollo’s Law and the Law of Recurrent Variation,” Floriculture and Ornamental Biotechnology Vol. 4 (Special Issue 1): 1-21 (December 2010).) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/12/peer-reviewed_research_paper_o042191.html Dr. Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig, (retired) Senior Scientist (Biology), Max Planck Institute for Plant Breeding Research, Emeritus, Cologne, Germany. Dr. Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig on the Law of Recurrent Variation, pt. 1 - podcast http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2013-12-09T17_31_28-08_00 "Dr. Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig on the Law of Recurrent Variation, pt. 2" - podcast http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2013-12-11T15_59_50-08_00 "Dr. Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig on the Law of Recurrent Variation, pt.3" - podcast http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2013-12-13T16_47_09-08_00bornagain77
November 15, 2014
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actually me-think, contrary to what you believe, without God as the basis for reasoning, there could be no arguing whether a point is valid or not in the first place,,, The Atheist's Guide to Intellectual Suicide - James N. Anderson, PhD - video https://vimeo.com/75897668bornagain77
November 15, 2014
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ppolish,
Keith, what with all the “ID is in trouble”? In your book, weren’t they always in trouble?
Yes, but a) it keeps getting worse, and b) you ID folks need to be reminded of it. Due to the historically heavy censorship at UD, a lot of you have been sheltered and seem to think that ID is still viable. My job is to help disabuse you of that notion. :-)
In a nutshell, why are they in trouble.
Are you asking generally, or specifically with respect to Wagner's book?keith s
November 15, 2014
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MT, the question of "How did God do it" has driven spectacular Science throughout the ages. Don't diss the strength of the HDGDI? question.ppolish
November 15, 2014
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bornagain77 @ 63 Please don't bring God into threads for non-theological topics. A simple statement that ' Since God is omnipotent, He would have done this' makes all other arguments- both ID and nonID - invalid.Me_Think
November 15, 2014
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so keith s, you do not contest my 15 points and then accuse me of not defending them??? Being consistent not a strong point for you is it!bornagain77
November 15, 2014
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Keith, what with all the "ID is in trouble"? In your book, weren't they always in trouble? In a nutshell, why are they in trouble. And don't say "Read the Book" again. You're sounding like a fundamentalist preacher man:)ppolish
November 15, 2014
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KF throws word salad at the problem:
MT, I have the distinct impression you have largely repeated yourself. That’s unfortunate given the cautions in 22 and 28 above. In sum, you cannot repackage the problem of sparse needle in haystack search as limited by available atomic and temporal resources and present it as the solution. And, failing to reckon with the implications of multi-part organised interaction to achieve function thus sharply constraining clusters of configs that work relative to clumped or scattered non-functional configs (i.e. islands of function) does not move your case forward. As to, the working configs not existing in some sort of platonic forms space ahead of time, no-one has argued for that, the issue is, if a functional config is possible, it is possible; perhaps best seen with digital text strings which in principle could be counted up from 000 . . . 0 to 111 . . . 1; though in praxis atomic and temporal resources would long have been exhausted. Blind Watchmaker mechanisms simply lack the capability to blindly sample such spaces to find clusters of configs that work for much the same reason. Intelligent designers use skill etc to synthesise configs that will work, getting around the sparse search challenge. KF
You're bluffing, KF. Selection makes all the difference in the world, and you know it. (Try running Weasel -- the non-latching variety :-) -- without selection sometime. Make sure you have a few quintillion lifetimes to spare. You'll need them.) To argue against the effectiveness of selection, you need to demonstrate, rather than merely assert, that "islands of function" are an effective barrier to evolution. You can't do that, and everyone knows it. Wagner's book demonstrates that the reality is exactly the opposite of what you've been hoping for. Read it and discover how much trouble ID is in.keith s
November 15, 2014
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ba77,
Actually I am very, very, comfortable in my Theistic Christian beliefs...
Oh, I know you're comfortable in your beliefs -- just not in your ability to defend them. Hence the spam reflex.keith s
November 15, 2014
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BA, this book reads like a Michio Kaku book. Speculative Science. Reads nothing like "Darwin's Doubt" to me, which is so very well constructed and written. And Dembski's new book changed the way I look at stuff in a profound way. The Wagner book is revealing complexities built on complexities built on more complexities that makes me appreciate Dembski even more:) And yes, Keith, I know that Darwin himself knew "Origin" of the species was beyond his understanding. That whole "Creator's Breath" thing. Except it's not a thing lol:)ppolish
November 15, 2014
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"Wagner has you running scared, doesn’t he, BA?" LOL, Project your own deep seeded feelings and insecurities much??? Actually I am very, very, comfortable in my Theistic Christian beliefs and how science has confirmed those beliefs beyond any reasonable doubt. But I can see where, because of un-dealt with sin, unrepentant sinners would be 'running scared', hiding from what our scientific evidence is now clearly telling us. ,,, For instance,,,
1. Naturalism/Materialism predicted time-space energy-matter always existed. Whereas Theism predicted time-space energy-matter were created. Big Bang cosmology now strongly indicates that time-space energy-matter had a sudden creation event approximately 14 billion years ago. 2. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that the universe is a self sustaining system that is not dependent on anything else for its continued existence. Theism predicted that God upholds this universe in its continued existence. Breakthroughs in quantum mechanics reveal that this universe is dependent on a ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, cause for its continued existence. 3. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that consciousness is a ‘emergent property’ of material reality and thus should have no particularly special position within material reality. Theism predicts consciousness precedes material reality and therefore, on that presupposition, consciousness should have a ‘special’ position within material reality. Quantum Mechanics reveals that consciousness has a special, even a central, position within material reality. - 4. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the rate at which time passed was constant everywhere in the universe. Theism predicted God is eternal and is outside of time. – Special Relativity has shown that time, as we understand it, is relative and comes to a complete stop at the speed of light. (Psalm 90:4 – 2 Timothy 1:9) - 5. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the universe did not have life in mind and that life was ultimately an accident of time and chance. Theism predicted this universe was purposely created by God with man in mind. Scientists find the universe is exquisitely fine-tuned for carbon-based life to exist in this universe. Moreover it is found, when scrutinizing the details of physics and chemistry, that not only is the universe fine-tuned for carbon based life, but is specifically fine-tuned for life like human life (R. Collins, M. Denton).- 6. Naturalism/Materialism predicted complex life in this universe should be fairly common. Theism predicted the earth is extremely unique in this universe. Statistical analysis of the hundreds of required parameters which enable complex organic life to be possible on earth gives strong indication the earth is extremely unique in this universe (Gonzalez). - 7. Naturalism/Materialism predicted it took a very long time for life to develop on earth. Theism predicted life to appear abruptly on earth after water appeared on earth (Genesis 1:10-11). Geo-chemical evidence from the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth indicates that complex photo-synthetic life has existed on earth as long as water has been on the face of earth. - 8. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the first life to be relatively simple. Theism predicted that God is the source for all life on earth. The simplest life ever found on Earth is far more complex than any machine man has made through concerted effort. (Michael Denton PhD) - 9. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the gradual unfolding of life would (someday) be self-evident in the fossil record. Theism predicted complex and diverse animal life to appear abruptly in the seas in God’s fifth day of creation. The Cambrian Explosion shows a sudden appearance of many different and completely unique fossils within a very short “geologic resolution time” in the Cambrian seas. - 10. Naturalism/Materialism predicted there should be numerous transitional fossils found in the fossil record, Theism predicted sudden appearance and rapid diversity within different kinds found in the fossil record. Fossils are consistently characterized by sudden appearance of a group/kind in the fossil record(disparity), then rapid diversity within that group/kind, and then long term stability and even deterioration of variety within the overall group/kind, and within the specific species of the kind, over long periods of time. Of the few dozen or so fossils claimed as transitional, not one is uncontested as a true example of transition between major animal forms out of millions of collected fossils. - 11. Naturalism/Materialism predicted animal speciation should happen on a somewhat constant basis on earth. Theism predicted man was the last species created on earth – Man (our genus ‘modern homo’ as distinct from the highly controversial ‘early homo’) is the last generally accepted major fossil form to have suddenly appeared in the fossil record. (Tattersall; Luskin)– 12. Naturalism/Materialism predicted much of the DNA code was junk. Theism predicted we are fearfully and wonderfully made – ENCODE research into the DNA has revealed a “biological jungle deeper, denser, and more difficult to penetrate than anyone imagined.”. - 13. Naturalism/Materialism predicted a extremely beneficial and flexible mutation rate for DNA which was ultimately responsible for all the diversity and complexity of life we see on earth. Theism predicted only God created life on earth – The mutation rate to DNA is overwhelmingly detrimental. Detrimental to such a point that it is seriously questioned whether there are any truly beneficial, information building, mutations whatsoever. (M. Behe; JC Sanford) - 14. Naturalism/Materialism predicted morality is subjective and illusory. Theism predicted morality is objective and real. Morality is found to be deeply embedded in the genetic responses of humans. As well, morality is found to be deeply embedded in the structure of the universe. Embedded to the point of eliciting physiological responses in humans before humans become aware of the morally troubling situation and even prior to the event even happening. 15. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that we are merely our material bodies with no transcendent component to our being, and that we die when our material bodies die. Theism predicted that we have minds/souls that are transcendent of our bodies that live past the death of our material bodies. Transcendent, and ‘conserved’, (cannot be created or destroyed), ‘non-local’, (beyond space-time matter-energy), quantum entanglement/information, which is not reducible to matter-energy space-time, is now found in our material bodies on a massive scale.
As you can see when we remove the artificial imposition of the materialistic philosophy, from the scientific method, and look carefully at the predictions of both the materialistic philosophy and the Theistic philosophy, side by side, we find the scientific method is very good at pointing us in the direction of Theism as the true explanation. - In fact it is even very good at pointing us to Christianity:
General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy & The Shroud Of Turin - (video) http://vimeo.com/34084462
bornagain77
November 15, 2014
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ba77:
pp you sound like you are recommending a science fiction novel rather than a nose to the grindstone theory with empirical support
Wagner has you running scared, doesn't he, BA?keith s
November 15, 2014
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ppolish:
BA, Wagner does not as such throw Natural Selection under the bus – but moves it to the back of the bus.
ppolish, Your bias is getting the best of you. Wagner isn't relegating selection to "the back of the bus". Darwin himself would have agreed with Wagner's statement:
Natural Selection can preserve innovations, but it cannot create them.
In the Origin, Darwin wrote something practically identical:
...unless profitable variations do occur, natural selection can do nothing.
keith s
November 15, 2014
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Well, that's my story, KF, and I'm sticking to it!Axel
November 15, 2014
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pp you sound like you are recommending a science fiction novel rather than a nose to the grindstone theory with empirical supportbornagain77
November 15, 2014
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BA, Wagner does not as such throw Natural Selection under the bus - but moves it to the back of the bus. On page.7 "The power of Natural Selection is beyond dispute, but this power has limits. Natural Selection can PRESERVE innovations, but it cannot CREATE them. And calling the change that creates them random is just another way of admitting our ignorance about it. Nature's many innovations - many uncannily perfect - call for natural principles that accelerate life's ability to innovate, its INNOVABILITY. ...... What we have found so far already tells us that there is much more to evolution than meets the eye. It tells us the principles of innovabilty are concealed, even beyond the molecular architecture of DNA, in a hidden world of life with an otherworldly beauty. These principles are the subject of this book."ppolish
November 15, 2014
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Axel, yikes! KFkairosfocus
November 15, 2014
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Well, I believe it happened to be true, when they used they old eather footballs, particularly when waterlogged; and there have been many an old footballer with some form of dementia, as a direct result of consequent brain injuries. Likewise with cricket balls, it's by no means unknown for blokes to get a bone in their hand broken, I believe. Not a lot of margin for error, and those balls, as you know, would not exactly be soft at 70 or 80 mph or whatever. I suspect my autonomic intelligence is brighter than my conscious brain, as I would really like to have been able to catch a fast ball, but my hand just said, 'No!'; and it would appear to have total authority on such occasions!Axel
November 15, 2014
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as to: "Natural Selection comes AFTER Innovation. Wagner makes that clear at the start.. Arrival of Fittest comes before Survival of Fittest. Hence the name of the book." So basically Wagner throws Natural Selection under the bus? But alas, as kf points out, without guidance, as grossly inadequate as Natural Selection was/is, you are left with merely an origin of life scenario on steroids. i.e. Basically Wagner, by throwing NS to the curb, is relying on miracle after miracle after miracle instead of just one miracle at the origin of life.bornagain77
November 15, 2014
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Axel, I always thought heading a ball was an invitation to headaches and cumulatively, worse. But then, I was disinclined. KFkairosfocus
November 15, 2014
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PP: The old ocean vents scenario, a version on Darwin's pond along with comets (in the news these days), gas giant moons, clay beds etc. That too is old hat and a fail I am afraid. There is a reason why the metabolism and genes first schools have come to mutual ruin. KFkairosfocus
November 15, 2014
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MT, I have the distinct impression you have largely repeated yourself. That's unfortunate given the cautions in 22 and 28 above. In sum, you cannot repackage the problem of sparse needle in haystack search as limited by available atomic and temporal resources and present it as the solution. And, failing to reckon with the implications of multi-part organised interaction to achieve function thus sharply constraining clusters of configs that work relative to clumped or scattered non-functional configs (i.e. islands of function) does not move your case forward. As to, the working configs not existing in some sort of platonic forms space ahead of time, no-one has argued for that, the issue is, if a functional config is possible, it is possible; perhaps best seen with digital text strings which in principle could be counted up from 000 . . . 0 to 111 . . . 1; though in praxis atomic and temporal resources would long have been exhausted. Blind Watchmaker mechanisms simply lack the capability to blindly sample such spaces to find clusters of configs that work for much the same reason. Intelligent designers use skill etc to synthesise configs that will work, getting around the sparse search challenge. KFkairosfocus
November 15, 2014
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Natural Selection comes AFTER Innovation. Wagner makes that clear at the start.. Arrival of Fittest comes before Survival of Fittest. Hence the name of the book. Chapter One (What Darwin Didn't Know) basically concludes that Darwin would have to study hard just to pass a modern day High School Biology class. He'd do OK when they got to The Finches part, but years away from understanding Post Doc Behe stuff.ppolish
November 15, 2014
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The next time you see a Hyper dimensional structure walking around with your eyeballs and not your overactive imagination, you let me know will ya?!? :) As well, Natural Selection, to the extent it does do anything, is grossly inadequate to do the work required of it because of what is termed ‘the princess and the pea’ paradox. The devastating ‘princess and the pea’ paradox is clearly elucidated by Dr. John Sanford, at the 8:14 minute mark, of this following video,,, Genetic Entropy – Dr. John Sanford – Evolution vs. Reality – video http://vimeo.com/35088933 Dr. Sanford points out, in the preceding video, that Natural Selection acts at the coarse level of the entire organism (phenotype) and yet the vast majority of mutations have effects that are only ‘slightly detrimental’, and have no noticeable effect on phenotypes, and are thus far below the power of Natural Selection to remove from genomes before they spread throughout the population. Here is a peer-reviewed paper by Dr. Sanford on the subject: “Selection Threshold Severely Constrains Capture of Beneficial Mutations” - John Sanford - September 6, 2013 Excerpt of concluding comments: Our findings raise a very interesting theoretical problem — in a large genome, how do the millions of low-impact (yet functional) nucleotides arise? It is universally agreed that selection works very well for high-impact mutations. However, unless some new and as yet undiscovered process is operating in nature, there should be selection breakdown for the great majority of mutations that have small impact on fitness.,,, We show that selection breakdown is not just a simple function of population size, but is seriously impacted by other factors, especially selection interference. We are convinced that our formulation and methodology (i.e., genetic accounting) provide the most biologically-realistic analysis of selection breakdown to date. http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/10.1142/9789814508728_0011 Here are a few more notes on this insurmountable ‘princess and the pea’ paradox: Evolution vs. Genetic Entropy - Andy McIntosh - video https://vimeo.com/91162565 The GS Principle (The Genetic Selection Principle) – Abel – 2009 Excerpt: The GS Principle, sometimes called “The 2nd Law of Biology,” states that selection must occur at the molecular/genetic level, not just at the fittest phenotypic/organismic level, to produce and explain life.,,, Natural selection cannot operate at the genetic level. http://www.bioscience.org/2009/v14/af/3426/fulltext.htmbornagain77
November 15, 2014
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Hypergeometric dimensions ARE fascinating. Not just the actual hypergeometric dimensions but also the idea of them. It's like part of Nature (Man) has become self aware. It's like Nature created Man in its own image. Of course Nature is not fundamental. It emerged. Created. Nature is doomed of course, but the Creator will remain. Always has, always will.ppolish
November 15, 2014
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bornagain77 @ 42
And he definitely is not referring to the 3 dimensions that natural selection is dealing with!
What do you mean ? Wagner's arguments are based on Hyper dimensions which are structural dimensions. Please see wiki page for better understanding.Me_Think
November 15, 2014
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And he definitely is not referring to the 3 dimensions that natural selection is dealing with! With apologies to C.S. Lewis,,,
If I find in myself a desire 4 dimensional quarter power scaling which no experience 3-Dimensional materialistic process in this world can satisfy explain, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity, Bk. III, chap. 10, “Hope”)
A few notes in regards to the claim that we were made for a higher dimension,,,
"Regardless, it is impossible for me to adequately describe what I saw and felt. When I try to recount my experiences now, the description feels very pale. I feel as though I'm trying to describe a three-dimensional experience while living in a two-dimensional world. The appropriate words, descriptions and concepts don't even exist in our current language. I have subsequently read the accounts of other people's near-death experiences and their portrayals of heaven and I able to see the same limitations in their descriptions and vocabulary that I see in my own." Mary C. Neal, MD - To Heaven And Back pg. 71 Dr. Mary Neal's Near-Death Experience – Sept. 2014) video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as6yslz-RDw "I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn't walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn't really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different - the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven." Barbara Springer - Near Death Experience - The Tunnel - video https://vimeo.com/79072924
It is also very interesting to point out that the 'light at the end of the tunnel', reported in many Near Death Experiences(NDEs), is also corroborated by Special Relativity when considering the optical effects for traveling at the speed of light. Please compare the similarity of the optical effect, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as a 'hypothetical' observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light, with the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ reported in very many Near Death Experiences: (Of note: This following video was made by two Australian University Physics Professors with a supercomputer.)
'Seeing Relativity' - Approaching The Speed Of Light Optical Effects - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQnHTKZBTI4
bornagain77
November 15, 2014
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“[while a number of philosophical ideas] may be logically consistent with present quantum mechanics, …materialism is not.” Eugene Wigner Don't be nasty, Eugene... But seriously, does anyone else double up with laughter when they see an absolutely foundational and seminal, philosophical point, nevertheless, of enormous controversy on here, settled with unambiguous finality, in a few words ... almost as if, in passing? Quantum mechanics is the ultimate game-changer, but they always draw stumps and take off home with their bat and ball. They're like me trying to catch a very fast cricket ball: my mind tells me to stick out my mitt, but a subliminal voice tells me: 'Don't daft, after I've stuck it out to within a few inches away of it.' Likewise heading a ball!Axel
November 15, 2014
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bornagain77 @ 38
Although Wagner and me-think appeal to higher dimensions in order to solve the insurmountable barrier imposed by a blind search in the real world, it is interesting to note that higher dimensions, specifically the quarter-power scaling which is ubiquitous through biology
Wagner is referring to Hypergeometric dimensions - not dimensions of space as in, say string theory.Me_Think
November 15, 2014
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