Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Identify the Indian or Shut Up

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Long time followers of this site will remember that my grandfather used to collect small stones he called “arrowheads.”  He had the misguided notion that these small pieces of flint had complex and specific chip patterns that he attributed to intelligent agency, i.e., Indians making tips for their arrows.  Later in life I learned that my grandfather was deluded.  Scientists assure us that unguided natural processes are perfectly competent to produce even the most extraordinarily complex phenomena, and the “design” some people insist on inferring from complexity is merely an illusion.  And my grandfather’s misguided resort to agency to explain these chip patterns is an example of the dreaded “Indian-of-the-Gaps” mode of thinking in action.  See my post here

The other day I got into an argument with one of my friends who insisted that the literally hundreds of pieces of flint in my grandfather’s collection, each showing an almost identical chip pattern, could not possibly be accounted for by blind unguided natural forces like erosion.  I have to admit he made a fairly impressive mathematical case and I was beginning to waver.  But then my friends at Panda’s Thumb came to my rescue.  They argue that a design inference is illegitimate unless the person asserting the inference can also identify the designer.  I pointed to one of the stones in the frame my grandfather gave me (It continues to hang on my wall for sentimental reasons, not because there is anything special about the stones themselves).  I said, “OK, Mr. Smarty Pants.  If the pattern on that stone is designed, tell me who the designer was.”  He was, of course, stumped, so I declared myself the victor in the argument.  Yet another triumph for materialist reasoning!

Comments
(cont'd from above... sorry, don't know why it posted early) That is, we know there are ways to muck with biochemistry. But do you propose the Designer did it that way? If so, where's your evidence for it? As far as we know, sophisticated lab equipment like we have today didn't exist millions of years ago.Hawkeye
July 31, 2007
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What about Stonehenge?johnnyb
July 31, 2007
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--- BarryA wrote:
Hawkeye, your argument boils down to: “With arrowheads we know there is a designer. Therefore, we know there is a designer. But with cellular machinery and the information content of DNA, we don’t know there is a designer. Therefore, we don’t know there is a designer.” You are assuming your conclusion; otherwise known as “circular reasoning.”
No, my argument boils down to, "We need evidence of a designer in order to confidently infer design. With arrowheads, we have that evidence. With cell biology, we don't." As DaveScot pointed out, "A demonstrated possibility involves biochemistry and genetic engineering using sophisticated laboratory equipment." That is, we know there are waysHawkeye
July 31, 2007
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Hawkeye, your argument boils down to: "With arrowheads we know there is a designer. Therefore, we know there is a designer. But with cellular machinery and the information content of DNA, we don’t know there is a designer. Therefore, we don’t know there is a designer.” You are assuming your conclusion; otherwise known as “circular reasoning.”BarryA
July 31, 2007
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Your alleged friend could have responded, "I can't tell you who the designer was, but I can tell you how many fingers, toes, and chromosomes he had if you tell me the same information (or any information at all) about the designer of the bacterial flagellum." Or, he could have said: "That's an interesting question; how could we go about answering it? Maybe we can figure out what tribe the designer belonged to. How do you go about finding out about the designer of the clotting cascade? What? You don't care about that??"mgarelick
July 31, 2007
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What is ID’s analogous proposed method of interaction between the designer and the biological system, and where is the evidence for it? A demonstrated possibility involves biochemistry and genetic engineering using sophisticated laboratory equipment. The evidence is in the machinery of life unless one subscribes to a cockamamy belief that intricate machinery and abstract codes that define them and dictate their behavior materialized out of thin air with no guidance or intent behind it. Where is the demonstration that undirected natural forces can bring about the cellular automata of life?DaveScot
July 31, 2007
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Your analogy doesn't hold at all. We DO know who designed and manufactured arrowheads, how they did it, and for what purpose; that's why we can say they are designed. It isn't enough to pick up a piece of flint and say, "Ooh, this is sharp and pointy, it must have been designed to tip an arrow." Rather, if we want to say it's an arrowhead, we say, "Look, here are chips and marks that are consistent with a human's having sharpened the flint." The Native Americans physically chipped the flint; we have physical evidence of that. What is ID's analogous proposed method of interaction between the designer and the biological system, and where is the evidence for it?Hawkeye
July 31, 2007
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