Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID’s problem in a nutshell

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Laszlo BenczeLaszlo Bencze offs a thought on how to survive in a culture that thinks that design in nature is unreasonable but an infinity of flopped universes is reasonable:

In my reading of a very fine book subtitled “How the Christian Middle Ages launched the scientific revolution” I encountered this passage:

Sir Isaac Newton explicitly stated that he was investigating God’s creation, which was a religious duty because nature reflects the creativity of its maker. In 1713, he inserted into the second edition of his greatest work, The Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy, the words:

Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and everywhere, could produce no variety of things. All that diversity of organisms which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing….And that is enough concerning God, to discourse of whom from the appearances of things does certainly belong to natural philosophy.

It would take Charles Darwin (1809-1882) to prove Newton wrong. —The Genesis of Science, James Hannam, p. 349

Mind you, this book bends over backwards to be sympathetic to Christianity, frequently reminding the reader that the Middle Ages produced much excellent science and that the church was neither frightened of such knowledge nor fought against it. But sympathy has its limits. The flat statement of fact closing this passage certainly represents the standard secular view of science and its relation to Christianity. Darwin made God obsolete. That’s that. Any discussion of evolution which proposes taking God seriously as an actual existing entity is backwards, primitive, outmoded, and, frankly, contemptible. Such is the world view which pervades intellectual society.

I find it fascinating that Hannam does such a good job of explaining the metaphysical controversies of the Middle Ages, some of which were quite subtle, yet manages to miss the elephant in the room of our current discourse. Of course Darwin did not disprove Newton’s statement. His achievement was insignificant in terms of advancing science and negligible as theology. But the problem is that he wrote so beguilingly that his work was accepted as both paradigm changing science and irrefutable theology. The best minds of the past 150 years have generally been conned into both opinions. And those opinions are seemingly unshakable.

Vast human capital gets infested in such theories. Only obituaries help in such cases, unfortunately. Suddenly, the relicts and dependents provided for, it becomes safer to say that it is all rot.

Comments
"I do have a PHD though." - Axel Should anyone doubt this? IDists have a history of pretending qualifications that they don't actually have(though seemingly less common than among YECists). Axel giving his name as "Paul Hugh Derek BECKE" does nothing to change this unfortunate tendency. What has he actually published about Intelligent Design Theory? Nothing. I believe nighlight (because he gave a link to his work) and KN (because he speaks coherently like the philosopher he claims to be, even if I don't always agree with him) hold PhDs. 'Axel' otoh, is just "an anonymous blog poster" more likely an evangelical IDist than a credible person. And yes, this preferred 'anonymity' amongst Expelled Syndrome IDists is quite obviously one of the IDM's problems in a nutshell.Gregory
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
10:45 AM
10
10
45
AM
PDT
Is anything easier than for an anonymous blog poster to claim a PhD? Surely, at the least, the part before the PhD ought to be provided and verified before one starts demanding obeisance. Else we'll have to start insisting you refer to us as the Exalted Grand Poobah, Phinehas.Phinehas
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
10:26 AM
10
10
26
AM
PDT
Poor old Greg still doesn't get it! Gregory. No university, to my knowledge, issues degrees of ANY kind to be apposed before the graduate's surname. And you know what? I have no respect for people who pursue tertiary studies to stroke their egos. Do it for the money and status (however questionable), but don't pretend you're interested in the truth.Axel
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
07:23 AM
7
07
23
AM
PDT
He loves to be embarrassed, TE, and we do our best to oblige. Gregory. Nice non-response, confirming your embarrassment at having vaunted yourself above Einstein. My name is Paul Hugh Derek BECKE. And don't you forget it, pip-squeak! What about your name?Axel
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
07:14 AM
7
07
14
AM
PDT
#37. Top marks again, NL! This time for imagination. Even though, I suspect your accusation was of confusion, not conflation - and that only in reference to my stricture concerning your confusing scientism for science, c.f your dismissal of philosophy in #15. Are you interested in the truth, or in making a name for yourself with the Consensus?Axel
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
07:09 AM
7
07
09
AM
PDT
Gregory wrote;
IDism is a joke, an embarrasement
Then when do you spend so much of your time posting on this website :)TheisticEvolutionist
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
07:07 AM
7
07
07
AM
PDT
Einstein was an "intellectually challenged IDist"!?!? 'Axel' is the kind of person for whom one doesn't need enemies; better to call him a friend of IDism so that higher truth will prevail. The guy shoots his own arguments off down under just by typing messages. Surely he cannot hold a doctoral degree in IDism?! (Because that title doesn't and never will exist.)Gregory
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
07:02 AM
7
07
02
AM
PDT
And your actual real 'surname' is what? Silence from fright. Dr. of Axiology? Dr. of Elephantitis? No, really, 'Axel' in Australia, what are you actually claiming to be a Doctor of? Anything that can be verified? Doubtful. Dr. Poser? Or is your hopeful first name 'D-O-C-T-O-R', even with only a secondary-level education, in the Ken Ham-like Australian Christian apologetics variety? Very little truth or disclosure seems to come from Axel's mouth. People shouldn't expect him to tell truth about himself due to Expelled Syndrome.Gregory
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
06:57 AM
6
06
57
AM
PDT
Poor old Einstein, eh, Gregory! Dumb son-of-a-bitch! No, not you, Greg. Einstein... Intellectually-challenged IDist that he vociferously was - to the shame of his poor, sainted parents, I've no doubt. You know what many of his contemporary, Lilliputian academic elite thought of him, after acquainting themselves with his first theory? That he was an imbecile. Just like you. No, not you. Einstein. You've stopped taking those tablets, haven't you, Gregory? You know it'll all end in tears again if you persist in ignoring your meds.Axel
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
06:55 AM
6
06
55
AM
PDT
@Axel #31 "Scientism at its finest!" You are conflating science with scientism.nightlight
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
06:49 AM
6
06
49
AM
PDT
I said 'IN FRONT OF my surname', Dumbo!Axel
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
06:45 AM
6
06
45
AM
PDT
And what are you a Doctor of Dr. Axel? I'm sure we'll get to the 'why then haven't you published a single credible ID Theory paper' since you are obviously defending IDism later. But for now in response to your - "I do have a PHD though" - in what field(s) are you a Doctor?Gregory
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
05:41 AM
5
05
41
AM
PDT
It's a typical IDist double standard based on ideology. "I can’t at the present time bring myself to call you nor nightlight Dr.. I have to hold a certain level of intellectual respect to refer to someone that way. But would you prefer the title Emperor to the title Doctor"...? No, I'm not an 'Emperor.' But as a researcher in the scientific community I'm obviously more a 'Doctor' than V.J. Torley, who teaches English language in Japan. IDists might not agree, but frankly, with such people, who cares? Reality opposes them, no matter how many links BA77 gives for his apologetic purposes. IDists are *not* intellectually respected. Period. I just spoke with top-level European scholars. IDism is a joke, an embarrasement. But you can hold onto the fantasy that Behe and Meyer and Dembski still hold, i.e. that Uppercase 'Design' that is Uppercase 'Intelligent' simply *IS* a 'scientific revolution' in the making if that is what you want to believe. The so-called "ID(ist) problem in a nutshell" is that most scholars don't accept IDism, and that includes (though American Christian apologists will shut their ears and hearts to this fact) Abrahamic scholars of high credibility and balanced response to (neo-)Darwinian evolution, have soundly *REJECTED* IDism as incoherent, unnecessary and unhelpful. Simply claiming probabilism and informationalism in 'biology' is not nearly as 'powerful' as IDists pretend it is. But I don't expect BA77 to 'wake up' to this. Why? Because he is 'BA'. Of course! :P He is not allowed to stay up late enough or to taste the reality of what it is that he vociferously (with far too many naive links) argues cannot possibly be understood.Gregory
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
05:37 AM
5
05
37
AM
PDT
Beggin' your pardon, Sorr, Dr Gregory, if I too have been guilty of lese-majeste. Unfortunately, I didn't take GCE 'O' Level Physics, so I couldn't defend my answers to my estimable peers, and you know what? I haven't met Dr Gordon. I do have a PHD though. In front of my surname, what's more. But call me, 'Sir', make a slight bow and touch your forelock.Axel
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
05:28 AM
5
05
28
AM
PDT
Gregory, I usually ignore you because I find your incoherent rants against ID extremely absurd, but I will respond to this, I can't at the present time bring myself to call you nor nightlight Dr.. I have to hold a certain level of intellectual respect to refer to someone that way. But would you prefer the title Emperor to the title Doctor:
Who was the "Emperor of San Francisco"? Excerpt: Whilst flipping through the TV channels, lookin' for Roller Derby, I accidentally landed on some station called PBS (I think it's local). Anyway, they were running a historical piece on the history of San Francisco and mentioned a gentleman who roamed the cities back in the 1800's, styling himself as "The Emperor of San Francisco." He was evidently well-liked, and most everyone in the city played along with him. They'd give him the best seats in restaurants, stand in acknowledgment when he visited the theatre, wave to him on the streets. They said he even printed his own money--and merchants accepted it.,,, http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1667/who-was-the-emperor-of-san-francisco
But alas I don't think you would like the title emperor from me either for I'm the little boy:
The Emperor's New Clothes http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1-DyHm9JQ68/UMJCQEssiL/AAAAAAAAIDQ/ixEjQ_jd3BA/s1600/ The Emperor's New Clothes Excerpt: "The Emperor's New Clothes" (Danish: Kejserens nye Klæder) is a short tale by Hans Christian Andersen about two weavers who promise an Emperor a new suit of clothes that is invisible to those unfit for their positions, stupid, or incompetent. When the Emperor parades before his subjects in his new clothes, a child cries out, "But he isn't wearing anything at all!",,, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes
bornagain77
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
05:24 AM
5
05
24
AM
PDT
nightlighte's #3: "For ID to get any traction as a candidate for science, DI urgently needs to rephrase their ‘consciousness intelligence’ talk into more modest ‘computational process’ terms, the stuff that scientists can work with and build something upon. There is nothing science can do with ‘consciousness’, intelligent or any other, since ‘consciousness’ is not a functional element of the present natural science." Scientism at its finest! Still, not to worry, science's loss is scientism's gain: Arise, Sir 'computational processes'! Your day has arrived. Traveller: 'Could you tell me the way to Wigan?' Local: 'Well, if I wanted to go to Wigan, I wouldn't start from here.' Go to the top of the class, nightlight. '"For ID to get any traction as a candidate for science,' Sloppy writing, sloppy thinking. A postulation doesn't need 'traction', or indeed 'candidacy' to be science. It only needs to be true. And truth doesn't need 'traction' or 'candidacy'. Acceptance of truth by all too human, career-driven, high-level functionaries is another matter all together, isn't it, nightlight?Axel
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
05:11 AM
5
05
11
AM
PDT
BA77, you could at least show the respect by calling him "Dr. nighlight" and me "Dr. Gregory" here. How does that reach you? Your "Dr. Gordon" is imo a rather specialised, i.e. 'narrow' thinker, which I know from having met him. It seems to me that Dr. nightlight is much broader and wider than Dr. Gordon. But will you eXtend that respect to non-IDists? As I understand it, you personally do no hold a PhD, i.e. you did not defend a thesis in front of scholarly peers after years of work and research. Your respect for those who have done this, however, does you credit. - GregoryGregory
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
05:06 AM
5
05
06
AM
PDT
Though not directly addressing Godel's incompleteness, I think Dr. Gordon's following quote sums up the situation between mathematics and Godel's incompleteness theorem rather nicely:
BRUCE GORDON: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010 Excerpt: Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency – a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what “breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.” Anything else invokes random miracles as an explanatory principle and spells the end of scientific rationality.,,, Universes do not “spontaneously create” on the basis of abstract mathematical descriptions, nor does the fantasy of a limitless multiverse trump the explanatory power of transcendent intelligent design. What Mr. Hawking’s contrary assertions show is that mathematical savants can sometimes be metaphysical simpletons. Caveat emptor. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/
Moreover, if we allow that God ‘can play the role of a person’ as even Godel himself allowed when he had chided Einstein's belief in an ‘abstract’ god,,,
The God of the Mathematicians – Goldman Excerpt: As Gödel told Hao Wang, “Einstein’s religion [was] more abstract, like Spinoza and Indian philosophy. Spinoza’s god is less than a person; mine is more than a person; because God can play the role of a person.” – Kurt Gödel – (Gödel is considered one of the greatest logicians who ever existed) http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/07/the-god-of-the-mathematicians
,,if we allow that then we find a very credible reconciliation between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics into a ‘theory of everything’, i.e. into an ‘absolute truth’, into the ‘unity’ that we intuitively know must exist:
General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy, and The Shroud Of Turin – updated video http://vimeo.com/34084462 Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural – December 2011 Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists. However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax. Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic. “The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin,” they said. And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: “This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date.” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html The absorbed energy in the Shroud body image formation appears as contributed by discrete values – Giovanni Fazio, Giuseppe Mandaglio – 2008 Excerpt: This result means that the optical density distribution,, can not be attributed at the absorbed energy described in the framework of the classical physics model. It is, in fact, necessary to hypothesize a absorption by discrete values of the energy where the ‘quantum’ is equal to the one necessary to yellow one fibril. http://cab.unime.it/journals/index.php/AAPP/article/view/C1A0802004/271
Verses and music:
Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Natalie Grant – Alive (Resurrection music video) lyric: “Death has lost and Love has won!” http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=KPYWPGNX
bornagain77
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
03:35 AM
3
03
35
AM
PDT
Querius, nightlight at post 15 stated this:
the vast majority of physicists subscribe to the QM interpretation known as “shut up and calculate” i.e. stay away from the quantum magic tarpit, it’s a dead end.
Querius, what is interesting in this 'philosophical' position that nightlight is holding is that even the “shut up and calculate” position has recently been shown to undermine the materialistic local realism model that nightlight is now defending. Dr. Sheldon, PhD. Physics, summed up the recent development this way:
Bohemian Gravity - Rob Sheldon - September 19, 2013 Excerpt: Quanta magazine carried an article about a hypergeometric object that is as much better than Feynman diagrams as Feynman was better than Heisenberg's S-matrices. But the discoverers are candid about it, "The amplituhedron, or a similar geometric object, could help by removing two deeply rooted principles of physics: locality and unitarity. “Both are hard-wired in the usual way we think about things,” said Nima Arkani-Hamed, a professor of physics at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, N.J., and the lead author of the new work, which he is presenting in talks and in a forthcoming paper. “Both are suspect.”" What are these suspect principles? None other than two of the founding principles of materialism--that there do not exist "spooky-action-at-a-distance" forces, and that material causes are the only ones in the universe.,,, http://procrustes.blogtownhall.com/2013/09/19/bohemian_gravity.thtml
The improvement for the 'shut up and calculate' position for QED, that nightlight seemingly prefers, by getting rid of locality and unitarity, i.e. the two of the founding principles of materialism that nightlight is defending, was vast:
A Jewel at the Heart of Quantum Physics - September 17, 2013 Excerpt: “The degree of efficiency is mind-boggling,” said Jacob Bourjaily, a theoretical physicist at Harvard University and one of the researchers who developed the new idea. “You can easily do, on paper, computations that were infeasible even with a computer before.” https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20130917-a-jewel-at-the-heart-of-quantum-physics/
Of related note to Feymann's previous work that has now been simplified mathematically:
THE INFINITY PUZZLE: Quantum Field Theory and the Hunt for an Orderly Universe Excerpt: In quantum electrodynamics, which applies quantum mechanics to the electromagnetic field and its interactions with matter, the equations led to infinite results for the self-energy or mass of the electron. After nearly two decades of effort, this problem was solved after World War II by a procedure called renormalization, in which the infinities are rolled up into the electron’s observed mass and charge, and are thereafter conveniently ignored. Richard Feynman, who shared the 1965 Nobel Prize with Julian Schwinger and Sin-Itiro Tomonaga for this breakthrough, referred to this sleight of hand as “brushing infinity under the rug.” http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/tackling-infinity “It always bothers me that in spite of all this local business, what goes on in a tiny, no matter how tiny, region of space, and no matter how tiny a region of time, according to laws as we understand them today, it takes a computing machine an infinite number of logical operations to figure out. Now how can all that be going on in that tiny space? Why should it take an infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time is going to do?" - Richard Feynman – one of the founding fathers of QED (Quantum Electrodynamics) Quote taken from the 6:45 minute mark of the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obCjODeoLVw
I don’t know about Feynman, but as for myself, being a Christian Theist, I find it rather comforting to know that it takes an ‘infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time is going to do’:
John1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
of note: ‘the Word’ in John1:1 is translated from ‘Logos’ in Greek. Logos is the root word from which we derive our modern word logic http://etymonline.com/?term=logic Thus underneath the simplification that made unification possible in the first place by Feynman, there seems to be an irreconcilable 'infinity problem' that was ignored. of related note, in the 'shut up and calculate' amplituhedron paper they stated that they still had not achieved unification of quantum mechanics with gravity:
"The amplituhedron itself does not describe gravity. But Arkani-Hamed and his collaborators think there might be a related geometric object that does.,,,"
Yet, according to Godel’s incompleteness theorem, a true, 'complete', 'theory of everything' cannot be a purely mathematical theory of everything as the authors of the amplituhedron paper seem to presuppose.
Kurt Gödel – Incompleteness Theorem – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8462821 Godel and Physics - John D. Barrow Excerpt (page 5-6): "Clearly then no scientific cosmology, which of necessity must be highly mathematical, can have its proof of consistency within itself as far as mathematics go. In absence of such consistency, all mathematical models, all theories of elementary particles, including the theory of quarks and gluons...fall inherently short of being that theory which shows in virtue of its a priori truth that the world can only be what it is and nothing else. This is true even if the theory happened to account for perfect accuracy for all phenomena of the physical world known at a particular time." Stanley Jaki - Cosmos and Creator - 1980, pg. 49 http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0612253.pdf
bornagain77
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
03:34 AM
3
03
34
AM
PDT
"No, no, no, KN, nightlight and Gregory, you silly PhDs. You simply aren't as knowledgeable as most USAmerican high school graduates, community college completers or bachelor's level 'thinkers' who bravely, courageously and 'selflessly' (for the good of all mankind!) call themselves IDists. You are doubting what *cannot* be doubted by any 'rational' person. You are scientifically stupid." - IDists Oh goodness, but IDists, including the most highly educated leaders of IDism, are being mocked and scientifically put in their place by high level European scholars as obviously absurd and insular. So what? They're just Europeans who have clearly identified the links between IDism and right-wing USAmerican politics. Who cares about that truth: Rick Santorum? It's just abstract (photographic rhetoric) talk by ideologues who have concluded already what they claim they can 'scientifically' prove.Gregory
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
01:12 AM
1
01
12
AM
PDT
"As I recall analogy is the strongest argument but the weakest proof." - querius IDism banks (literally at the DI, Amundson, et al.) on analogy. It would take querius another degree of study, at least 5 years of his life, to catch up with the insights nightlight is offering him, graciously with his precious time visiting UD blog.Gregory
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
01:02 AM
1
01
02
AM
PDT
Laszlo Bencze should take on Adrian Bejan's lowercase 'design in nature'. But he likely won't. And neither will UDers.
"Darwin made God obsolete. That’s that. Any discussion of evolution which proposes taking God seriously as an actual existing entity is backwards, primitive, outmoded, and, frankly, contemptible." - Laszlo Bencze
That's simply an absurd statement, given the presence of TE/EC approaches to the topic. Perhaps Laszlo Bencze just doesn't know about them or pay them attention. It's such a strange inferiority complex demonstrated by IDists with symptoms of Expelled Syndrome. Otoh, they *really* seem to think that they *are* Revolutionary scientifically. Dembski qua Newton of information, etc. Meyer speaks of a scientific revolution in the making. Behe tells of implications for "all humane studies". Yada, yada, yawn. Yet when it comes to facing actual, serious critiques, IDism has continuously failed. Dembski's "Answering the Toughest Questions about Intelligent Design" (2004) is a clear example of missing the boat. A "biological argument for God" that has *nothing* to do with theology; such silly talk as this. Kantian Naturalist and nightlight would dominate *any* duo of IDists attacking them at UD, *both* philosophically and scientifically. I don't agree with KN's naturalism/emergentism, but he's shown much more awareness of actual positions than almost anyone else at UD. nightlight sees through the facade that most UDers have erected in the name of their ideological IDism. BS77, KF/GEM, timaeus and co. simply cannot 'compete' with their peers on this topic. Will Laszlo Bencze show some courage, speaking in his own real name to address Adrian Bejan's lowercase 'design in nature'? Probably not. Taking IDists seriously thus becomes a somewhat ridiculous proposition.Gregory
September 25, 2013
September
09
Sep
25
25
2013
12:59 AM
12
12
59
AM
PDT
As I recall analogy is the strongest argument but the weakest proof.Querius
September 24, 2013
September
09
Sep
24
24
2013
08:32 PM
8
08
32
PM
PDT
@bornagain77 #20 The quantum magic is going into history to the same place where the above Turk is, and before that perpetuum mobile contraptions, since it shares lots of features with both. Here is a nice survey paper of the BI violations experimental situation by E. Santos drawing the historical parallel with the perpetuum mobile (page 25). Nothing has changed of substance since he wrote it 9 years ago (his other papers on arXiv). Even the rest of Quantum Theory, not just the the mystical recesses of measurement theory and Bell non-locality, will be seen in not very long as Ptolomaic epicycles are seen today. The future of physics is not going back to the 19th century pre-quantum era but toward computational and algorithmic models, in the direction pointed to by Wolfram's NKS (the Book) and Fredkin's Digital Physics as explained in this post.nightlight
September 24, 2013
September
09
Sep
24
24
2013
07:55 PM
7
07
55
PM
PDT
Thank you for the great quotes, bornagain77! As to whether either Dr. Anton Zeilinger or the person posting here as "nightlight" is, in fact, an intentional liar is indicated by their respective definitive statements regarding the results of QM experiments. In addition, nightlight goes so far as to intimate fakery and monetary incentives on the part of QM scientists. So how can we tell which one is the liar? The question might actually be an interesting one to ID proponents because many of the arguments have been used against scientists who ascribe to ID. Scientific consensus. This is clearly in Dr. Zeilinger's favor Publications in scientific journals. Again, score this one for Dr. Zeilinger. Educational attainment. It seems that Dr. Zeilinger wins again on this point---the person posting as nightlight only has a master's degree. Expertise. Dr. Zeilinger is an acknowledged expert in QM, but this can also be a source of bias, since no one is going to become or remain an acknowledged expert in a field of which they are skeptical. There's an analogue here to experts in evolutionary biology discovering (to no one's surprise) that Evolution is a fact. So far, all of these issues to a greater or lesser extent have been used against proponents of ID. Logical argument. Here's where ID proponents usually shine over their Darwinist opponents (with notable exceptions). I'm inclined to tilt this one toward Dr. Zeilinger due to the clarity and simplicity of Zeilinger's explanations. I was particularly intrigued by his assertions to the effect that the apparent behavior of light is an illusion and is not happening in (our) reality. The person posting as nightlight offered some confusing and symbolic representations that were vaguely reminiscent of existential logic. The snobbery and browbeating was a turnoff for me. Still snobs and bullies can be truth-tellers. Repeatability. Many labs have claimed to have been able to successfully repeat the double slit experiment, and demonstrate quantum entanglement. The person posting as nightlight seems to be aware of this, but appears to claim widespread fraud. This is possible, but unlikely. In contrast, with the evolution versus ID debate, the amount of direct experimentation is limited, and some of the results of experiments are controversial. So, regardless of which one of these people, Dr. Zeilinger or the person posting as nightlight, is actually a bold-faced liar, the exercise should be instructive to ID proponents including me, to have greater understanding for the objections of people in the field of Biology, whose education was centered around the evolution paradigm. You're right that people rarely change their minds, especially those with a scientific reputation to lose. Still, there are interesting exceptions. In any case, scientists should be noted by their humility and open-mindedness to new data, have extremely high integrity, and should not tolerate sloppy thinking or experiments even by the people they're in agreement with. These are good things for everyone to bear in mind.Querius
September 24, 2013
September
09
Sep
24
24
2013
07:53 PM
7
07
53
PM
PDT
Well nightlight, I counted only three links in your post @12 and seven links in BA's post @13. And seven seems to be the magic number here at UD. And again I see only three links in your post @15. Which, amazingly enough to those of you who don't believe in time travel or ESP or NDE, BA managed to exactly cube in his pre-response @14. Now if that's not proof of consciousness I don't know what is! I'd appreciate some enlightenment. Are we talking collapse of the wave function, quantum entanglement, the measurement problem, or what? Dumb it down of us closet ID'ists please! :) nightlight, it was your initial post @3 which caught my eye. Trying to follow that through to the latest has not been exactly easy. Are you saying there is no evidence for consciousness, or that if there is there is no evidence for any effect, or that if there is it's outside the bounds of science? Now I do find your suggestion that ID could be formulated in terms of computation very interesting. But aren't computers machines, and aren't machines made by agents for agents, blah blah ... So do we need to abandon entirely the machine metaphor, in your opinion? What do you have to say about "molecular machines?" cheersMung
September 24, 2013
September
09
Sep
24
24
2013
07:44 PM
7
07
44
PM
PDT
nightlight you state: A) “There are no loophole free experimental violations of Bell Inequalities” is logically equivalent to a more succint statement: B) “There are no experimental violations of Bell Inequalities” and I hold you to be severely disingenuous in your removal of the words 'loophole free'. You yourself seem to know full well how difficult these experiments are. If you really cannot see how biased you are in this there is really not much else I can do for you, save to send flowers to your funeral! i.e. science progresses one funeral at a time - Planck!bornagain77
September 24, 2013
September
09
Sep
24
24
2013
07:11 PM
7
07
11
PM
PDT
@bornagain77 #16
Realism and locality cannot forever be going on somewhere else where we can't concretely confirm it. You can hide in the loopholes if you wish, and pretend you are being `scientific' in doing so, but I find it severely disingenuous of you to do so and for you to take cheap shots from your, so far, unfalsifiable position is even more confirmation that you are more of a dogmatist than unbiased observer in this.
I am not "hiding in loopholes" but merely pointing out that statement: A) "There are no loophole free experimental violations of Bell Inequalities" is logically equivalent to a more succint statement: B) "There are no experimental violations of Bell Inequalities" The (B) merely removes the redundant euphemistic misdirection "loophole free" i.e. "flaw free" i.e. "one that violated inequalities". But that is exactly what the rest of the sentence is already saying anyway, hence it is redundant and we can drop it without losing any facts. When on the subject of magic technology and its loophole free demonstration, as luck would have it, there was in 19th century a Zeilinger's fellow countryman, Wolfgang von Kempelen, who invented a magical chess playing automaton he called Turk. The Turk toured European courts and capitals, beating in chess anyone who dared play against it. To show there is no cheating involved (after all there were often big bets at stake) von Kemplen would first "prove" to the spectators that the Turk was just a mechanical automaton, by opening the large pedestal showing myriad loudly buzzing gears inside, then the Turk figure itself, also just bunch of spinning gears. But the proof always left a little loophole, since while showing the insides of the pedestal the door on the Turk was closed, and while showing the insides of the Turk the door on the pedestal was closed. There was also always a little "insignificant" pause in between the opening of the two doors. Just enough for a small statured, highly skilled chess player to slide on a little cart from one compartment to another, remaining always invisible to the spectators. That's basically how the shifting loopholes in the BI violations experiments have been behaving ever since that magic show opened for business half a century ago. You shine the light into one compartment and the loophole somehow moves to the other, now dark, compartment. Call me prejudiced, but when I see an Austrian with a pocketful of shifting loopholes peddling the latest magic technology...nightlight
September 24, 2013
September
09
Sep
24
24
2013
07:00 PM
7
07
00
PM
PDT
Well I don't think nightlight is purposely lying. I personally think he is being disingenuous to what the evidence is telling us, and is looking for escape hatches (note how he tried to divorce philosophy from consideration in science which is impossible), but I do not think he is purposely lying. What I do know for sure is that nightlight is fighting a loosing battle against the steady advances of quantum mechanics. As Max Planck has so bluntly stated: A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it. - Max Planck - pp.33-34 (as cited in T.S. Kuhn, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions). Max Planck, the father of quantum mechanics, and devoted Christian, also had a few other interesting quotes: I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness. Max Planck - As quoted in The Observer (25 January 1931) As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter. Das Wesen der Materie [The Nature of Matter], speech at Florence, Italy (1944) (from Archiv zur Geschichte der Max-Planck-Gesellschaft, Abt. Va, Rep. 11 Planck, Nr. 1797) Schrodinger also had some strong words on this matter. “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” (Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334.)bornagain77
September 24, 2013
September
09
Sep
24
24
2013
06:28 PM
6
06
28
PM
PDT
Thank you, bornagain77 for your replies and the included links! I found them interesting and very helpful. In one of the videos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayvbKafw2g0), Dr. Anton Zeilinger claims to show experimental evidence for quantum entanglement among other QM effects. According to Wikipedia:
Anton Zeilinger (born on 20 May 1945) is an Austrian quantum physicist who in 2008 received the Inaugural Isaac Newton Medal of the Institute of Physics (UK) for "his pioneering conceptual and experimental contributions to the foundations of quantum physics, which have become the cornerstone for the rapidly-evolving field of quantum information". Zeilinger is professor of physics at the University of Vienna and Senior Scientist at the Institute for Quantum Optics and Quantum Information at the Austrian Academy of Sciences. Most of his research concerns the fundamental aspects and applications of quantum entanglement.
However nightlight, who professes expertise in QM posted the following:
There is no empirically demonstrated ‘wave function collapse’ in QM (Quantum Mechanics), despite nearly a century of speculation on the subject and numerous experiments. See for example this long thread in Physics Forum explaining the blatant cheating in the most recent experimental claims of the ‘collapse’ demonstration.
and
In any case, the measurement problem is a highly speculative, philosophical, borderline mystical, little corner of Quantum Theory, with no empirical evidence to ground the speculations and with nothing in practical uses of QM depending on any of it (i.e. it’s an example of mental self-gratification).
So, would it be reasonable to conclude that either Dr. Anton Zeilinger or the person posting here as nightlight is a liar?Querius
September 24, 2013
September
09
Sep
24
24
2013
05:47 PM
5
05
47
PM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply