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Mind and emergentism

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Evolutionists believe that mind can rise from matter. From atoms configured into molecules, configured into cells, configured into tissues, configured into a brain, mind can rise. Their molecules-to-man evolution story is in fact the narrative of the emergency of mind from matter. Here, in a sense, evolutionism and artificial intelligence (AI) meet in developing a fallacious more-from-less scenario.

For example, an evolutionist says:

I think that “larger objects” have properties not possessed by their parts. These properties include the capacity to have purposes, designs, moral principles, beauty, love, anger, and fear.

According to this evolutionist naturalistic conception, a “larger object” is simply a specific configuration of atoms, enough large to develop the emergent properties. The belief that properties as those listed in the quote can spontaneously emerge from large configurations of atoms is called “emergentism”. Practically we could consider “emergentism” as an alias of “evolutionism”.

The “larger object” can be also the brain, filled with neural networks, where processes and states happen as effects of algorithms. So the “emergentism” expressed above in terms of hardware – so to speak – can also be expressed in terms of software. It is exactly what, for example, Roger Penrose does:

In my opinion, it is conceivable that in an algorithm there is a threshold of complication beyond which the algorithm shows mental qualities. [The Emperor’s New Mind, chap.1]

Let’s see, in simplest terms, why mind is neither a configuration of atoms, nor a process or algorithm in the organism. It is common experience that mind recognizes “purposes, designs, moral principles, beauty, love, anger, and fear”. What recognizes configurations, states, processes is not one of such configurations, states, processes. The “recognizer” cannot emerge from what it recognizes. The binary relation between recognizer and recognized cannot be reduced to a single point. Example: what sees is different from what is seen; the eye cannot see itself. Analogously mind, who recognizes what happens in the brain, is different from what happens. Mind cannot arise, as emergent property, from the neural processes it sees. This a matter of principle.

Against this reasoning, emergentism doesn’t help evolutionists. It is useless to say that “systems may have properties not possessed by their parts”. Depending from the specific system and its parts, a system can have, yes, certain additional properties, but not whatsoever properties. Natural example: while a single water molecule doesn’t form ice crystals, a set of water molecules shows the emergent property of forming ice crystals, at a certain temperature. But no set of water molecules shows, say, the emergent property of self-inflaming. The cause of all that is the physical laws. Artificial example: an airplane has the property of flying, which its parts have not, but an airplane cannot have the property, say, of creating moral laws from thin air. What allows an airplane to fly is its intelligent design (ID). It is ID the cause adding to the parts of the airplane the capacity to fly by mean of an apt assembly (beyond obviously having designed the parts themselves).

So the controversy is not if systems can have properties not possessed by their parts. They can have some. In general, the controversy is about what properties a specific system and parts can develop and what causes the arise of such properties. Specifically, I claim that human mind is not a property emerging from biological or artificial hardware configurations or software processes when their complication become large enough. And I claim that, much less, mind can be the result of an unguided material process, as cause. It is, yes, possible to fabricate artificial neural networks (“artificial brains”) but it is impossible to artificially create a human mind from chemicals in the lab. Mind is not a mere by-product of matter.

Thus, in the quote cited at the beginning, the problem is not the first statement “larger objects have properties not possessed by their parts”, rather the second one: “these properties include the capacity to have purposes, designs…”. If the “larger object” is the brain, or even an entire organism, its emergent properties do not include “the capacity to have purposes, designs…”. Mind doesn’t arise bottom-up. Mind overarches body, brain and matter.

Analogously, to say that mind is a property of the brain, is just defective. It would change nothing to say that mind is a property of the whole organism. In any case mind is not simply a property or attribute of large systems. Because a property of a thing cannot be the recognizer of the thing and its properties. Example, a banana has the property of being yellow. The property of being yellow cannot recognize the banana and its properties.

As always the problem is a priori materialism, which flattens any hierarchy. Between mind and matter there is an ontological hierarchy. Every man daily experiments this hierarchy, by using his mind to dominate matter. Unfortunately evolutionists forget this direct scientific experience to believe a fully unsubstantiated and biased faith, which materialism is.

Comments
@Box #121
Nightlight, what are your thoughts on the `Gödelian Argument'? This argument uses Gödel's theorem to show that minds cannot be explained in purely mechanist / computationalist terms.
If there weren't Gödel's theorem, I would be looking for one since in Planckian networks (PN) perspective, we are here precisely because of the unfinished computation, the incomplete harmonization process (aka "sin") which is being worked out continuously at all levels. Below is an excerpt from an earlier UD post fleshing out this observation a bit further. There is also a lot more related material in that thread, including model of mind stuff (consciousness), free will, two types of immortality, etc. The TOC hyperlinked by topics is in the 2nd half of this post.
The interesting question is what is this whole contraption (universe) trying to do, what is it building? Then, what for, why all the trouble? A little clue as to what it is doing, comes from inspecting how these networks work at our human level. Each of us belongs to multitudes of adaptable networks simultaneously, such as economic, cultural, political, ethnic, national, scientific, linguistic. Hence these larger scale adaptable networks, which are themselves intelligent agencies, each in pursuit of its own happiness, as it were (optimization of their net [rewards - punishments] score via internal modeling, anticipation, etc), are permeating each other as they unfold, each affecting the same cogs (human individuals), each tugging them their way. But these larger scale networks are shaped "in the image" of the lower scale intelligent networks building them, such cellular biochemical networks, which in turn are built in the shape of underlying Planckian networks which built them. The picture that this forms is like a gigantic multi-dimensional and multi-level crossword puzzle, where the smallest cells contain letters, next larger cells contain words, then sentences, then paragraphs, then chapters, then volumes, then subject areas, then libraries,... This crossword puzzle is solving itself simultaneously in all dimensions and on all levels of cells, seeking to harmonize letters so they make meaningful words in each dimension, then to harmonize multiple words so they make meaningful sentences in each dimension, then paragraphs... across the whole gigantic hypertorus all at once. As the lower level cells harmonize and settle into solved, harmonious form, the main action, the edge between chaos and order, shifts to the next scale to be worked out. The higher scales must operate without breaking the solved cells of the previous layers, e.g. we have to operate without breaking physical, chemical and biological laws, which were solved into harmonious state in the previous phases, by networks which are computationally far more powerful than ourselves (thus having superior wisdom to our own). Now the hotspot of action is chiefly in our court to compute our little part and harmonize our level of the puzzle. Once completed, the razor edge of innovation shoots up to the higher scales, thinner and sharper than ever before, leaving us behind, frozen in a perfect crystalline harmony and a permanent bliss of an electron.
nightlight
September 25, 2013
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Mung, look again at the drawing. Ignore misuse of the plural, which, as I readily conceded, is a minor matter, and Meyer gets it right elsewhere. How do you account for the fact that he has circled only the tips of the branches as a "phyla", and not the whole branch?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 25, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Mung, if you want to know why Meyer’s drawing is a howler, read my post. The same error is present in the other drawings, and in the text, and pervades the book.
For those who care to follow, your howler of Meyer's "howler" is exposed on your own blog: here You claim to be critiquing Chapter 2. You cherry-pick a drawing from Chapter 7 which uses the term PHLYA while ignoring the right side of that same drawing which employs the term PHYLUM while also ignoring all the drawings from Chapter 2 that you re-created in your OP which also employ the use of the term PHYLUM. Howler, yes. Meyer's howler, no.Mung
September 24, 2013
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Nightlight
Nightlight #79: Seeds for the new kind of algorithmic or computational reformulation of natural laws have emerged in the last few decades under the labels ‘digital mechanics’ (Fredkin, Toffoli & MIT ‘hackers’), cellular automata, neural networks, pregeometry. (…) Life on Earth, humans and human societies are merely the latest computing technologies of the PN matrix in this corner of the universe as it is working itself out and harmonizing its activity at ever larger scales, with ever finer precision and greater efficiency.
Nightlight, what are your thoughts on the ‘Gödelian Argument’? This argument uses Gödel's theorem to show that minds cannot be explained in purely mechanist / computationalist terms. It has been put forward, in different forms, by Kurt Gödel himself, by Sir Roger Penrose, and J.R. Lucas. The argument is discussed, for instance, at the website of J.R. Lucas. At the weblog of Bill Vallicella I found an excellent summary of the Gödelian argument by a poster by the name of Deogolwulf:
Deriving from Lucas and ultimately Gödel, a sketch of an argument ad absurdum against mechanism or computationalism can be given as follows: I.The human mind is fallible and contains inconsistencies. II.The human mind is a formal system like that of a machine. Therefore, III.The human mind is an inconsistent formal system. IV.An inconsistent formal system is thoroughly inconsistent, that is to say, any proposition that can be stated in that system can be proven using its rules. Therefore, V.The human mind is thoroughly inconsistent, that is to say, any proposition that can be stated by it can be proven using its rules. Therefore, VI.The human mind can prove itself to be a consistent formal system. And, VII.Propositions (I)-(VI), and propositions in contradiction to them, can be proven by the human mind. And, VIII. The contradiction of (VII) can be proven thereby. And, IX. The contradiction of (VIII) can be proven thereby. Ad infinitum. Therefore, X. The human mind, being thoroughly inconsistent, cannot recognise its own mistakes or recognise the truth of anything. Since every reasonable man rejects (X) but accepts (I) and (IV), given an understanding of the world of humanity along with the validity of Gödel’s theorem, he must reject (II), given that the reasoning is valid.
Box
September 24, 2013
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Mung, if you want to know why Meyer's drawing is a howler, read my post. The same error is present in the other drawings, and in the text, and pervades the book. And I don't mean the misuse of the plural.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 23, 2013
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Alan Fox:
Give me one example of a slander (a link, not more verbiage) at TSZ.
Define slander, Alan.Mung
September 22, 2013
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Mung:
When Elizabeth claimed that Stephen Meyer does not know the difference between a phylum (singular) and a phyla (plural) was that a slander?
Elizabeth:
No, Mung, as you pointed out, elsewhere in his book he shows that he does know, so my comment was simply incorrect.
Your claim was false. Does the fact that your assertion was false make it not a slander? How so? Elizabeth:
No, Mung, as you pointed out, elsewhere in his book he shows that he does know, so my comment was simply incorrect.
Elsewhere in his book, really? Like in Chapter 2 of his book, the chapter you claimed to disagree with? That's where he made the clear distinction. That's where it's clearly evident that he knows the difference. That's what you had to ignore to come up with your "incorrect" comment. EL:
It appears that he just got it wrong in the diagram I was referring to.
You cherry-picked a diagram from Chapter 7 to show that Meyer doesn't know what he's talking about in chapter 2?
And, as I said at the time, that error is minor compared to the howler of the diagram itself.
Which diagram, the one you pulled from Chapter 7 and tried to insert into Chapter 2? The diagram that on the left says PHYLA but on the left says PHYLUM?
I see you still have not addressed the howler.
I've addressed your howler repeatedly. If Meyer is guilty of a "howler" I honestly don't see it. I see you taking a drawing out of context (a drawing from chapter 7) and inserting it into a discussion of what Meyer is discussing in Chapter 2. I see you making assertions which are clearly false, which you choose to describe as merely incorrect.Mung
September 22, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
“Darwinism”. It is defined in the UD glossary as the a scientific theory (neo-Darwinian synthesis).
Precisely. The neo-Darwinian synthesis. But I personally don't think it's a scientific theory. :)Mung
September 22, 2013
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Box, I have much appreciated also your contributions, and by the way the contributions of all commenters. I think that together we have discussed well and politely. So, thanks and good weekend to all.niwrad
September 21, 2013
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Niwrad post #112:
[TRANSLATION MODE] ‘Liz, there is absolutely no basis for your position. It doesn’t make sense at all’. [/TRANSLATION MODE]
Liz, post #113:
Thanks niwrad, I appreciate that. I’m going to back off back to TSZ now for a bit, but you are very welcome to come over if you want to discuss further.
Box
September 21, 2013
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Thanks niwrad, I appreciate that. I'm going to back off back to TSZ now for a bit, but you are very welcome to come over if you want to discuss further.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 21, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle Well, I don't see in your last post anything technical to refute. After all, you have diligently tried almost all possibilities: complication, feedback, openness. No one works. No wonder. Bottom-up algorithmic explanations of soul/mind cannot work in principle, because it can be explained only ontologically top-down. I do recognize your intellectual honesty. Materialism/evolutionism are illusions very deeply rooted in any modern man/woman. The actual cultural environment install them in us just from the basic school. It takes a lot of force to resist them. I don't pretend to have convinced you, go figure, in these few interchanges. I am just satisfied that my UD post has got your interest. Thank you.niwrad
September 21, 2013
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Yes, that is an interesting suggestion, niwrad. That makes the chess game a better analogy. Please do not characterise the words of mine that you cite as a "finally admit[ting]" something, implying that I was somehow claiming that "emergentism" was an "explanation" at all. It isn't. In fact, not being a philosopher, I am not quite sure what "emergentism" entails. What I did say is that we can regard systems as emergent entities that have properties not possessed by their parts. And if we do so, I suggest, we have a far better chance of explaining how conscousness arises. But recasting a problem does not give us the solution. It often helps us find one.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 21, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle:
The main difference is that chess is a closed system. Organisms are open to the environment that they have to navigate. They have, in other words, to be aware of the environment, as well as aware of their own position within it, and what actions will affect their relationship with it.
One could easily transform a normal closed chess game into an open one, for example, by allowing the players to receive suggestions from the environment. Despite that now the system has become open the same no chess player arises from a chess pattern. Yes, organisms are open to the environment and have to be aware of it, but the arise of their soul is what has to be explained in the first place and is not explained by their openness either, like it was not explained by their feedback nature. About your answer to Box's question: "How does emergentism explain that we perceive ourselves as being the same person over time?"
Well the simple word “emergentism” does not. However, the concept of a reentrant system does, I suggest, do the job very nicely.
I am glad that you finally admit that “emergentism” explains nothing. I already explained to you why also reentrant systems per se cannot develop soul. What causes "we perceive ourselves as being the same person over time" is soul.niwrad
September 21, 2013
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niwrad:
A game of chess is a re-entrant system. Feedback exists between two parts when each affects the other. This is exactly what happens in a chess game between two chess players or between two chess computers or between a human player and an artificial player. Despite of in chess there is feedback no chess player arises from a chess pattern.
OK, then just shift your level of analysis up one. The chess game is feeding back into itself. As a result, the chess game changes and develops, and goes from its beginning to its end. Yet it remains the same chess game. The main difference is that it is a closed system. Organisms are open to the environment that they have to navigate. They have, in other words, to be aware of the environment, as well as aware of their own position within it, and what actions will affect their relationship with it.
Analogously, in a thinking aware organism there are many feedbacks. Neither one of them nor their set can produce the soul agent/driver. Feedback can blindly work-out patterns, not create a seer/agent/driver overarching patterns.
Well, this is precisely what I am disputing.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 21, 2013
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Box:
Assuming that humans are the only conscious beings in the universe, and assuming that no brain is the same as another, there are many billions of different systems – different human brains / bodies – which all provoke the emergence of an individual consciousness. In fact there are many more, since a human body changes many times during a lifetime. This adds hugely to the number of possible material configurations that trigger the emergence of consciousness.
Yes indeed, although in an astronomically larger configuration space.
With such a vastly populated design space it should be easy to invoke the emergence of consciousness in the laboratory, but like JDH states in his excellent post #93 “putting a bunch of human neurons together in a petri dish does not produce consciousness”.
You think it should be easy to produce a configuration of neurons in a petri dish that would be conscious? Leaving aside that far more than neurons are necessary for consciousness, are you serious?
Given that the body and brain changes physically often during a lifetime. How does emergentism explain that we perceive ourselves as being the same person over time?
Well the simple word "emergentism" does not. However, the concept of a reentrant system does, I suggest, do the job very nicely.
How can an endless amount of different physical configurations produce the emergence of a consciousness who perceives itself as permeating through time – the unity of experience. An illusion perhaps?
Not an illusion, which is a word that we normally use to denote a percept that conflicts with other evidence, for instance, the percept that the moon at the horizon subtends a larger angle than it does at the zenith. Consciousness is not an illusion; it is a perfectly consistent percept. We perceive that we are conscious, and that percept does not conflict with other evidence.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 21, 2013
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I have not commented here before, but have really enjoyed the site. This discussion is quite interesting, but confusing as well. My take would be: If we are machines of some sort, very complicated but machines nonetheless (and I would believe that if we are "emergent", then we are some sort of machine in essence), then the actions of Mother Teresa and Al Capone are equivalent. The settings were just different, and so different results ensued. They could not be blamed or condemned one way or the other, they couldn't help it. And trying to educate any moral principles would seem futile as well. Now that seems ridiculous to me, but perhaps I am missing something.Allen Shepherd
September 21, 2013
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Assuming that humans are the only conscious beings in the universe, and assuming that no brain is the same as another, there are many billions of different systems – different human brains / bodies - which all provoke the emergence of an individual consciousness. In fact there are many more, since a human body changes many times during a lifetime. This adds hugely to the number of possible material configurations that trigger the emergence of consciousness. With such a vastly populated design space it should be easy to invoke the emergence of consciousness in the laboratory, but like JDH states in his excellent post #93 “putting a bunch of human neurons together in a petri dish does not produce consciousness”. Given that the body and brain changes physically often during a lifetime. How does emergentism explain that we perceive ourselves as being the same person over time? How can an endless amount of different physical configurations produce the emergence of a consciousness who perceives itself as permeating through time – the unity of experience. An illusion perhaps?Box
September 21, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle:
Of course I don’t claim that a chess player arises from a chess pattern. A game of chess is not a re-entrant system. I’m saying that a thinking aware organism is.
A game of chess is a re-entrant system. Feedback exists between two parts when each affects the other. This is exactly what happens in a chess game between two chess players or between two chess computers or between a human player and an artificial player. Despite of in chess there is feedback no chess player arises from a chess pattern. Analogously, in a thinking aware organism there are many feedbacks. Neither one of them nor their set can produce the soul agent/driver. Feedback can blindly work-out patterns, not create a seer/agent/driver overarching patterns.niwrad
September 21, 2013
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oops, add virtual close blockquote tag after JDH's numbered line 2 aboveElizabeth B Liddle
September 21, 2013
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JDH: thanks for your post.
Of course the term itself: 1. Is a claim that is as practiced is non-falsifiable. We all know obviously just putting a bunch of human neurons together in a petri dish does not produce consciousness and that the only place that consciousness is observed is in a living human being birthed by a parent. Since I think this adequately falsifies the “emergent” hypothesis, but is not considered falsification of the “emergent” hypothesis by it’s proponents, I assume there is no experiment that can adequately falsify the statement that consciousness emerges from a collection of neurons.
I don't think this is a falsification. It is of course possible that birth from a parent is the necessary condition for consciousness, but it could also be that it is not - that what is possible is a specific configuration of neurons, one that is in practice only found in organisms born from a parent, but which could, in principle be assembled by other means. In other words, the important part may be (and I would argue is) the configuration itself, not the fact of being born.
2. It can not be mathematically modeled. It is just a vague statement that has no associated quantities with it.
It's not vague, and can in principle be quantified. I'd say at this stage though it is primarily useful as a framework for developing empirical questions rather than as an empirically testable concept in itself.
3. It does nothing at all to clarify how consciousness occurs. Well, I disagree. I think it is already giving us fruitful directions for research. The research has important clinical applications.
When I call consciousness an “emergent” property, all that is does is allow non-fitting analogies to be assigned to it. So one can now say something true like “a water molecule is not ‘wet’, but ‘wetness’ is an emergent property of ‘water’”. But this is a non-argument. What you have done is assign the same term ‘emergent’ to two obviously different processes. One can label ‘consciousness’ as emergent from neurons, and ‘wetness’ as emergent from water molecules, but since obviously they are not ‘emergent’ in anyway near the same manner ( i.e. simple 19th century physics can explain how the property of ‘wetness’ comes from a collection of water molecules ) it really just confuses the issue.
Well, clearly simply saying consciousness is "emergent" doesn't tell you much about consciousness specifically, just as saying that a chair is a piece of furniture doesn't tell you much about a chair. But it gets us, I suggest, on the road to a more specific account of how consciousness arises from matter. I recommend Edelman and Tononi's book, A Universe Of Consciousness How Matter Becomes Imagination for a highly detailed proposal.
I conclude therefore that the term ‘emergent’ is not meant to clarify, explain, or elucidate anything. It is meant to obfuscate the observed fact that current science really knows nothing about consciousness at all.
It is certainly not "meant to obfuscate" on my part. You seem to be assuming your conclusion here - you regard it as a "fact" that "science really knows nothing about consciousness at all", which I strongly dispute, and then conclude that terms used to ostensibly to clarify it must therefore really be an attempt to obfuscate. You may disagree, and indeed you may think that it is nonsense, but do not assume that those who disagree with you are trying to confuse you. They (and I) are not.
A fact that makes it clear that anyone who really wants to make a good decision based on current understanding ( not based on what is assumed science will eventually discover ) must conclude that the best current explanation for consciousness lies in a world not limited to materialism.
Your fact is in dispute. We know a great deal about the material requirements for consciousness. If we did not, for a start we would have no way at all of deciding whether someone was dead or not. Nor would the entire science of anaesthesia be possible.
Elizabeth B Liddle
September 21, 2013
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I do realise, it, niwrad. Of course I don't claim that a chess player arises from a chess pattern. A game of chess is not a re-entrant system. I'm saying that a thinking aware organism is. And give my best regards to your wife :)Elizabeth B Liddle
September 21, 2013
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Mung:
When Elizabeth claimed that Stephen Meyer does not know the difference between a phylum (singular) and a phyla (plural) was that a slander?
No, Mung, as you pointed out, elsewhere in his book he shows that he does know, so my comment was simply incorrect. It appears that he just got it wrong in the diagram I was referring to. And, as I said at the time, that error is minor compared to the howler of the diagram itself. I see you still have not addressed the howler.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 21, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle:
I disagree that that the driver cannot also be the driven.
See? We are unavoidably back to this key question, not by chance. You do claim that the chess player arises from a chess pattern! You don't realize the enormity of what you claim. All the natural feedback phenomena (vortices, chaos...) you cite are not a chess player arising from a chess pattern. The soul means mind, intelligence, consciousness, awareness, free-will... in one word, a real chess player, the driver of the chess pieces on the chessboard of body. How can you compare this player/driver with natural vortices...? Oh my. You are almost headstrong as my wife. Luck I have a training. I can discuss with you until the end of eternity, but I bet that before the end of the discussion you become an IDer less materialist than me. The ID movement needs intelligent women and you are ok.niwrad
September 21, 2013
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I disagree that that the driver cannot also be the driven, niwrad, although I appreciate the clarity of your post. There are many phenomena, I would say, that arise precisely because they drive themselves - re-entrant feedback systems, which, once started, are self-perpetuating. The entire field of chaos theory addresses this. Vortices are a classic example. But I suggest cognition is another.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 21, 2013
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Mung:
You’re just never quite sure what others mean when they use the term.
Indeed, Mung. And when I try to find out, I am accused of nitpicking and obfuscation, and duelling by definition. So I'm left with simply not knowing what the term is supposed to mean. In my view, a very high proportion of the miscommunication here arises from equivocation, deliberate or inadvertent, with the word "Darwinism". It is defined in the UD glossary as the a scientific theory (neo-Darwinian synthesis). Yet it is often used as though it is synonymous with "atheism". And as a result, any scientific problem with the neo-Darwinian synthesis (and there are quite a few - it is now a very old model) are presented as though they are problems for atheism. This is classic equivocation. Another word that is similarly subject to equivocation is "random">Elizabeth B Liddle
September 21, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle:
What a living organism has, in addition to its parts, is the arrangement of those parts. [...] What is there, in addition, is not more material, but a pattern – the arrangement. Information, in fact. [...] Consciousness is information, embodied in the physical arrangement of matter.
You define well emergentism: soul is a body pattern, or what pattern causes, an effect - emergent property - of pattern. Differently, in the non-emergentist organic hierarchical view, human soul is not mere pattern/information due to the physical arrangement of body. Soul is an higher principle, an agent, the driver of body. What drives your fingers to write your posts? Your soul. Your fingers, even your entire body, would be incapable to write anything, without an agent driving them. In Zen teaching there is a famous hua tou (statement on which to meditate) used to help the student to grasp the soul:
Who drags here this corpse?
So defined, it is straightforward that such agent/driver cannot emerge from a pattern of the object/driven. How can what controls arise from what is controlled? It cannot. The chess player doesn't arise from a chess pattern.niwrad
September 21, 2013
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Jerad:
If you want to address the situation at TSZ then why don’t you join the conversation there?
Like Upright BiPed, you mean? Like WJM? Oh sure, if you don't like the sewer, why not get in it. It's lovely!Mung
September 20, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
It strikes me that news ought to read the glossary. She may be surprised at the definition of “Darwinism” given there. She seems to think it means “atheism”.
lol. Elizabeth, by her own admission, does not know what 'Darwinism' means. But she seeks to correct 'News' as to the meaning of 'Darwinism.' Too rich. Now, anticipating the response from Elizabeth, if you (Elizabeth) don't know what 'Darwinism' means, what made you even suspect that News was not using the term according to proper and/or common usage? Oh, that's right, you do know what it means. You're just never quite sure what others mean when they use the term.Mung
September 20, 2013
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nightlight, I've been following your exchange with Elizabeth with some interest. I see from some of the links you provided that you have posted here in the past but I am sad to say this is the first time I have taken notice and can only hope it's because we were not posting here at the same time. If you are familiar with Gregory, his beef with ID seems to be that it claims to be a "natural science only" theory. Your claim seems to be that ID, as presented by some (specifically Stephen Meyer), fails even as a "natural science only" theory. Anyways, I just wanted you to know that I find your posts interesting and worth reading and look forward to more from you. But Wolfram, really? Are you asking me to heft that massive tome once again, lol?Mung
September 20, 2013
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