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In time for American Thanksgiving: Stephen Meyer on “the frailty of scientific atheism”

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Steve Meyer, author of The Return of the God Hypothesis, observes in a pdocast with Wesley Smith, “you rarely hear people refer to a ‘consensus’ in science when there actually is one.”

What’s needed, he says, and what is increasingly under siege in our culture, is the idea of “science as an open form of inquiry,” where “science advances as scientists argue about how to interpret the evidence.” Meyer would like to see more scientific debate, across the board, from climate change to Darwinian evolution to “many issues that have arisen in response to the Covid epidemic.” I couldn’t agree more. I want to offer a thought about something that underlies the impulse to clamp down on debate, and it relates to Thanksgiving.

At the end of the podcast they touch on the fragility, the brittleness of the materialist picture of reality. Materialism is as oppressive as it is because it can’t afford one slip-up, not one exception to the iron rule that nothing exists beyond nature. Wesley cites a fascinating interview with two well known “proud atheists,” Harvard cognitive psychologist Steven Pinker and his wife, the philosopher Rebecca Goldstein. She wrote a particularly good book that I read when it came out, Betraying Spinoza: The Renegade Jew Who Gave Us Modernity. Both are committed to Spinoza-style rationalism. In the interview with Salon, Pinker and Goldstein make clear how fragile their atheism is…

David Klinghoffer, “Thanksgiving and the Frailty of Scientific Atheism” at Evolution News and Science Today

Wesley Smith’s got a point. As a totalistic philosophy, “scientific atheism” (materialism) can be confuted by a single contrary example. Other philosophies are more robust. For example, one shyster evangelist doesn’t prove that all religion is wrong.

Anyway, materialist atheism is — you read it here first — slowly being destroyed by panpsychism. Panpsychism (everything is conscious) makes more sense. Here’s why:

Recall Egnor’s Principle: If your hypothesis is that even electrons are conscious, your hypothesis is likely wrong. But if your hypothesis is that the human mind is an illusion, then… you don’t have a hypothesis. That’s slowly killing “scientific” atheism.

You may also wish to read: A Darwinian biologist resists learning to live with panpsychism. Jerry Coyne makes two things quite clear: He scorns panpsychism and he doesn’t understand why some scientists accept it. The differences between panpsychism and naturalism are subtle but critical. As panpsychism’s popularity grows, insight will be better than rage and ridicule.

Comments
Julius Caesar never existed. Well, my position is that the existing documentary evidence is far from proving his existence beyond a reasonable doubt. I have no problem with a lone Roman thinking he can actually be a lone ruler and then making it happen, albeit briefly.ET
December 3, 2021
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Seversky @111 - fair enough.William J Murray
December 3, 2021
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Origenes @112:
There is another option apart from a not-self. Suppose that a person is one thing, one self, with aspects such as the “I” and thoughts and feelings. Now identification can go thus: I am not a thought. I am a thinker but not a thought. I am a feeler, but not a feeling. Yet thoughts and feelings are aspects of the larger me (the self).
Sense of self, thoughts and feelings are not the ground for sense of self, thoughts and feelings, which you explicitly referred to as "the larger me." IOW, "the larger me" is not consciously aware and cannot make such identifications and distinctions as itself. It is only a step removed from that being that anything can become consciously aware. Here's the kicker: it is not one particular self that arises, so to speak, from the ground of being; all possible "selfs" must also exist, because we're talking about the ground of being as infinite potential information. The ground of being is also the ground for any space-time experience, but is not itself space-time. It cannot "produce" sentient beings in any order; all possible beings, all possible information, all potentials simply, simultaneously exist as the co-existent consequence of the existence of the ground of being. So, does the Christian God, as a very powerful being, exist? I'd say that's close to a certainty. Is it the only such God? I'd say that's just as certainly not the case. Does the Christian heaven and hell exist? Certainly - as would every other possible afterlife scenario and situation. They all must exist because nothing can change the infinite potential the ground of existence innately provides.William J Murray
December 3, 2021
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Querius, on square circles you have tried shifting context from what is implied, a planar figure or its 3-d extension which at one and the same time has core properties of squarishness and circularity for one and the same entity under the same circumstances. Such do not exist. The underlying point is, distinct identity of a possible entity requires coherence of core characteristics and circumstances. KFkairosfocus
December 2, 2021
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Sev, the selective hyperskepticism required to dismiss so impactful and well documented a personage as Jesus of Nazareth removes you to the fringe of scholarship. Do you exert similar doubts as to the reality of the classical past in general, if so why; if not, why not? KFkairosfocus
December 2, 2021
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Querius/99
Not surprisingly, Seversky has once again vanished after I destroyed his argument @19. No qualified scholar currently defends the position that Jesus was a myth or a fictional character, so you’re right that Seversky apparently died on that hill by himself
I'm sorry to disappoint you but I'm still here. I had hoped you had evidence for Jesus's existence other than the usual suspects. Jesus mythicism may be a minority position but it does exist as a position held by credible scholars and is worth defending to prevent the believers from becoming too smug and complacent.Seversky
December 2, 2021
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WJM @ 100
What does it mean for the “ground of existence” to make a deliberate choice? A deliberate choice requires being self aware. To be self-aware, one must have some way of identify self. That can only be done in comparison to not-self.
There is another option apart from a not-self. Suppose that a person is one thing, one self, with aspects such as the “I” and thoughts and feelings. Now identification can go thus: I am not a thought. I am a thinker but not a thought. I am a feeler, but not a feeling. Yet thoughts and feelings are aspects of the larger me (the self).Origenes
December 2, 2021
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William J Murray/84
Maybe I missed it. Did you claim that Jesus never existed? If so, why? What difference does it make if Jesus existed or not?
No, I don't claim that Jesus never existed. My position is that the existing documentary evidence is far from proving his existence beyond a reasonable doubt. I have no problem with the possibility that there was an itinerant preacher of that name roaming around first-century Palestine with a small band of followers. Claiming he was the incarnation of the Christian God is little different from claiming he was a Force-wielding Jedi Knight who was visiting Earth long ago from a galaxy far, far away.
I don’t see how it makes any difference if Jesus existed, or even if everything written about what Jesus did actually occurred; there’s no way to logically, evidentially connect Jesus to God other than circular reasoning. It doesn’t seem to me to be a hill worth defending
It doesn't make any difference to me but it clearly makes a great deal of difference to some here. I think the hill is worth defending if for no other reason than to remind them that there are questions that need to be answered which they are afraid to ask.Seversky
December 2, 2021
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Zweston @108, So very true! Also, take a look at Jeremiah 2:13, which I think is also very appropriate! Habitual skepticism questions everything but itself. What William J Murray, or anyone else with a rigid belief system--either scientific, religious, or political--that's not truly based on logic, experience, or revelation should ask themselves is, "Why really do I believe as I do?" They should examine themselves deeply and truthfully in all frankness. I know I have. -QQuerius
December 2, 2021
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William J Murray @105,
Nothing you say in this comment answers the logical objections I raised to the Christian God.
LOL. You're saying that my reply didn't destroy your argument simply by asserting that it didn't. This reminds me of the undefeatable black knight: https://youtu.be/ZmInkxbvlCs?t=78 -QQuerius
December 2, 2021
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Figure out which proverb to follow.... Proverbs 26:4 or Proverbs 26:5 WJM, to deny what is right in front of you is foolish. I get that you have constructed some sort of plausible way for you to deny things (at least in your mind) but man... you should just surrender to Christ. It's a great thing.zweston
December 2, 2021
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William J Murray @104, As every reader can see, you're the one that specified a "square circle," and I found a way (actually two ways) that demonstrated my point about how profoundly crucial our perspectives are in discussing anything about God. After being humiliated with my solution, you then added several MORE constraints such as "a pencil" and "a flat piece of paper" to avoid my solution. This is called moving the goalposts. All I did was find a solution that met your original constraints. As I'm writing this response, yet another solution occurs to me (making two more solutions) that I won't share since you'll simply respond with adding more constraints. My point still stands . . .
All these prove that we should be extremely open and humble when considering God, and that we cannot reach God neither with a physical Tower of Babel nor any system of logic. God’s existence and presence can only be revealed to us either directly or by his creation.
-QQuerius
December 2, 2021
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WJM, as a first rough remark, have you ever considered that our spacetime domain is a subsidiary, created world within a wider reality with a necessary being as root of reality? KFkairosfocus
December 2, 2021
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Querius @103: Nothing you say in this comment answers the logical objections I raised to the Christian God.William J Murray
December 2, 2021
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Querius said:
Thank you for conceding the point (and moving the goalposts). Yes, I can actually think of a way to do this because you didn’t specify the shape of the pencil and the curvature of the space-time containing the flat sheet of paper. Of course, if I did, you would simply move the goalposts again.
I'm not the one moving the goal post, Querius. You are. You know exactly what I mean when I say it, and then you try and figure out some way around what I'm saying by throwing in different elements and perspectives. You do realize you're doing the exact same thing others do here that you complain so much about, don't you? God cannot create an A that is both A and not-A at the same time, in the same relevant way. Also, you and I both know I did not concede any point. Why do you say things like that when you know they aren't true?William J Murray
December 2, 2021
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William J Murray @100 wrote:
You cannot make a deliberate choice to create time unless time already exists, otherwise, nothing can precede that choice in order for it to be a deliberate choice. IOW, there logically had to be a “before” and “after” the choice the made, which means time already necessarily existed. Also, where was “God” before He created space?
There was no "before" in OUR space-time, which is believed to have came into existence 13.7 billion years ago. It should be obvious that before God created space-time as we experience it, He was not operating in it. God told Moses that His name is "I AM." Other places in the Bible indicate that God exists eternally in our past, our present, and our future. God describes himself in many other places in the scriptures, but it reports that God's thoughts are not our thoughts and God's ways are not our ways. It warns us that they are vastly higher than ours. You shouldn't find this as a surprise. Currently, we don't really understand time, but we do recognize the possibility of asynchronous events, multidimensional time*, and state machines. I don't want to project any these onto God because most certainly my speculation will be wrong as is yours. -Q * For example, the time remaining in download can increase as well as decrease depending on your download speed. Time remaining is not necessarily linked to our clock time, which can also vary with our velocity or the presence of a gravitational field.Querius
December 2, 2021
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William J Murray @101, Thank you for conceding the point (and moving the goalposts). Yes, I can actually think of a way to do this because you didn't specify the shape of the pencil and the curvature of the space-time containing the flat sheet of paper. Of course, if I did, you would simply move the goalposts again. My point still stands:
All these prove that we should be extremely open and humble when considering God, and that we cannot reach God neither with a physical Tower of Babel nor any system of logic. God’s existence and presence can only be revealed to us either directly or by his creation.
-QQuerius
December 2, 2021
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Querius, So we can keep fidelity to the perspective commodity in question, let me rephrase then: Even God cannot draw a 2" by 2" square circle with a pencil when viewed as a 2D perspective on a flat sheet of paper by regular human beings.William J Murray
December 2, 2021
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Querius:
Do you see anything in what you wrote that not a completely groundless assertion? As such, it’s completely worthless.
You cannot make a deliberate choice to create time unless time already exists, otherwise, nothing can precede that choice in order for it to be a deliberate choice. IOW, there logically had to be a "before" and "after" the choice the made, which means time already necessarily existed. Also, where was "God" before He created space? What does it mean for the "ground of existence" to make a deliberate choice? A deliberate choice requires being self aware. To be self-aware, one must have some way of identify self. That can only be done in comparison to not-self. If there is no "not-self" to identify self in relationship to, self-awareness is not logically possible. "A" doesn't mean anything whatsoever unless there is a "not-A" to compare it against. Universal, absolute ubiquity does not allow for self-awareness, and so no deliberate choice can be made.William J Murray
December 2, 2021
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William J Murray @84,
Maybe I missed it. Did you claim that Jesus never existed? If so, why? What difference does it make if Jesus existed or not?
Not surprisingly, Seversky has once again vanished after I destroyed his argument @19. No qualified scholar currently defends the position that Jesus was a myth or a fictional character, so you're right that Seversky apparently died on that hill by himself. -QQuerius
December 2, 2021
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William J Murray @91 wrote:
Whatever God is or is capable of, it cannot be the deliberate creator of space-time. That’s a logical impossibility, as far as I can tell. Also, God cannot be the creator of consciousness or information.
Do you see anything in what you wrote that not a completely groundless assertion? As such, it's completely worthless.
To be clear, God may be the ground wherein such things can be said to exist, but God cannot perform a logically impossible task. Not even God can draw a square circle.
That's funny because I can: 1. Draw a circle. 2. Divide the circle into four equal arc segments. The geometric shape is still a circle. 3. Increase the radius of each arc to double its original radius and notice that the geometric shape is still a circle. Then continue increasing the radius of each arc equally using the same function on each arc. 4. Continue increasing the radius until the radius of each arc is infinite. Mathematicians do this all the time with the lim of functions. Notice that an arc of infinite radius has a geometric shape identical with a line. The four lines thus have a geometric shape identical with a square but remain a circle by definition. So there's your stupid square circle. Maybe God will someday show you how this works. -QQuerius
December 2, 2021
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I'll let my response stand as stated, and see no need at this time to add, or clarify, anything about the 'logical necessity' of the infinite Mind of God raising Jesus from the dead. Although, I will add this following tidbit that was revealed via holographic imaging of the Shroud of Turin:
Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words "The Lamb" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tmka1l8GAQ RESEARCH 3 LETTERS ON SOLID OBJECT THREE HEBREW LETTERS IN RELIEF ON THE SURFACE OF THE OVAL SOLID OBJECT —UNDER THE BEARD IN THE NECK AREA — Excerpt: THE THREE HEBREW LETTERS: Hebrew is a language that is written and read from the right to the left. So the three letters that are visible are from right to left: TS’ADE—ALEPH—NUN (see image 9),,, There is however something more with the word TS’ON. Like we mentioned before, in KLEIN’s dictionary it is translated as: “small cattle, sheep and goats”. (This is like saying “soldiers” instead of army and TS’ON is NOT a flock but “sheep and goats”). The EXCEPTION for the translation of the word TS’ON, we find in Exodus 12:21. When the Israelites are ordered by God to prepare a lamb for sacrifice and after the sacrifice put the blood on the doorposts, the word that is used for lamb is SEH (Exodus 12:3) and that is correct. However, in Exodus 12:21 it says: “Then Moses summoned all the elders of Israel and said to them, “Go at once and select the animals for your families and slaughter the (Passover) lamb”. The word that is used in the Bible is TS’ON and this is the ONLY TIME in the whole of the Bible that the word TS’ON is used as lamb and it is specifically translated as such for this occasion. In the Judaic Tradition this sentence in Exodus 12:21 is also understood (translated) as: “MAKE A SIGN WITH THE LAMB”, (By putting the blood of the lamb on the doorpost). The reason for this is that there is a very close relationship in the root and also in the sound, between the word TS’ON and the word TS’IOEN, and this word means “sign”. In the Judaic Tradition when words have the same root and/or sound, they are like “family of each other” and are very closely related in meaning and use. So, we find again a direct connection between the word TS’ON, and Jesus Christ, who is the Passover lamb, dying at the moment on Friday afternoon when in the Temple the sacrifice of the lambs took place. “The Lamb of God that takes away the sins of this world”. (See figure 16 and 17, the Passover Lamb). https://shroud3d.com/research-on-the-3d-materials/research-3-letters-on-solid-object/
Verse:
John 1:29-30 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
bornagain77
December 2, 2021
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BA77 said:
In response WJM again doubted that “ONLY” God would have the “infinite” power necessary to resurrect Jesus from the dead and stated “any being with the power to do that, or any being whose resurrection would leave that evidence, whether it had anything to do with God or not.” Obviously, implicit in WJM’s remark is the assumption that it did not take the infinite power of God to resurrect Jesus from the dead, but some powerful, but finite, being “with the power to do that” could also possibly have resurrected himself, or someone else, from the dead. WJM is wrong in his assumption that it did not take the infinite Mind of God to resurrect Jesus from the dead but that a finite, but powerful, being could possibly resurrect himself, or someone else, from the dead.
First, I want to say you're right, and I'm wrong. I also want to apologize for making a very sloppy argument and using very sloppy words and concepts in my side of the argument. It absolutely took the power of God to produce the effects you describe. But then, it takes the power of God for anything at all to exist or occur. The question I think is the root of this debate is whether or not the resurrection of Jesus is an indication that God is the same as the God you are saying this evidence supports - specifically, the Christian God. As you should know, I hold the existence of God as ground of all existence, being, consciousness, mind and all experience as a logical necessity. So we are not disagreeing on whether or not God exists, but only on whether or not the Christian God correctly characterizes God beyond what we agree on. When I said, "..whether or not that has anything to do with God," it was fully MY BAD that I said that in such a poor way. I am entirely at fault for the mess I made of this argument. Your argument seems to be that the incredible miracle of the resurrection and the evidence it left behind is evidence for the Christian God; IOW, that it is evidence not only of the qualities and nature of ground-of-existence God that we agree on, but it specifically supports the further characterizations of God found in Christianity. Furthermore, while the resurrection and the evidence it left behind is at least apparently unique, the uniqueness of that event makes the proper rational assessment of it more difficult. While unique, is the resurrection and the evidence it left behind more miraculous a situation than, say, everyone's capacity to carry on rational thought in their minds, move about during the day, and have any experience at all? We all exist as an in a miracle, the "miracle-ness" belied by its ubiquitous nature. My sitting on the porch, enjoying the morning sunshine sipping my delicious coffee is no less a profound miracle than the resurrection of Jesus and the evidence it left behind. The only reason one is considered a miracle and the other not is its apparent uniqueness. For me, the heart of the debate here is whether or not the resurrection and the evidence directly, logically supports the further, specific characterizations of God as asserted by Christianity. That is the specific "God-characterizations" I was talking about (very poorly) in my exchanges. What further characterizations am I talking about? There are several; one is the division of the afterlife into two dichotomous arenas, heaven and hell. The whole sin and forgiveness structure. That God deliberately created space-time or really deliberately created anything. There are probably other characteristics if I thought about it more. I don't see how the miracle of Jesus' resurrection logically and evidentially support those (and perhaps other) specific characteristics of the Christian God and how Christianity describes the specific existential arrangements God created - not without circular reasoning that leads back to assertions made in the Bible.William J Murray
December 2, 2021
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That it is possible for the human body to emit such biophotonic 'quantum light' is revealed by the following papers and photograph:
Cellular Communication through Light - 2009 Excerpt: Information transfer is a life principle. On a cellular level we generally assume that molecules are carriers of information, yet there is evidence for non-molecular information transfer due to endogenous coherent light. This light is ultra-weak, is emitted by many organisms, including humans and is conventionally described as biophoton emission. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0005086 Biophotons - The Light In Our Cells - Marco Bischof - March 2005?Excerpt page 2: The Coherence of Biophotons: ,,, Biophotons consist of light with a high degree of order, in other words, biological laser light. Such light is very quiet and shows an extremely stable intensity, without the fluctuations normally observed in light. Because of their stable field strength, its waves can superimpose, and by virtue of this, interference effects become possible that do not occur in ordinary light. Because of the high degree of order, the biological laser light is able to generate and keep order and to transmit information in the organism. https://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/body_and_health/Biophotons%20-%20The%20Lights%20in%20Our%20Cells.pdf Photocount distribution of photons emitted from three sites of a human body - 2006 Excerpt: Signals from three representative sites of low, intermediate and high intensities are selected for further analysis. Fluctuations in these signals are measured by the probabilities of detecting different numbers of photons in a bin. The probabilities have non-classical features and are well described by the signal in a quantum squeezed state of photons. Measurements with bins of three sizes yield same values of three parameters of the squeezed state. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16520060 Humans Glow in Visible Light - July 2009 Excerpt: Past research has shown that the body emits visible light, 1,000 times less intense than the levels to which our naked eyes are sensitive. In fact, virtually all living creatures emit very weak light, https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna32090918
Thus in conclusion, (and contrary to 'whatever' WJM may believe in his, ahem, 'theory'), when we rightly allow the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics, (as the Christian founders of modern science originally envisioned, Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, James Clerk Maxwell, and Max Planck, to name a few of the Christian founders,,,, and as quantum mechanics itself now empirically demands with the closing of the free will loophole by Anton Zeilinger and company), then rightly allowing the Agent causality of God 'back' into physics provides us with a very plausible resolution for the much sought after ‘theory of everything’ in that Christ’s resurrection from the dead bridges the infinite mathematical divide that exists between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics and provides us with an empirically backed reconciliation, via the Shroud of Turin, between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity into the much sought after ‘Theory of Everything” As the following verse states, "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."
Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
bornagain77
December 2, 2021
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Moreover, besides gravity being dealt with on the Shroud of Turin, the Shroud of Turin also gives us evidence that Quantum Mechanics itself was also dealt with. In the following paper, it was found that it was not possible to describe the image formation on the Shroud in classical terms but they found it necessary to describe the formation of the image on the Shroud in discrete quantum terms.
The absorbed energy in the Shroud body image formation appears as contributed by discrete (quantum) values – Giovanni Fazio, Giuseppe Mandaglio – 2008 Excerpt: This result means that the optical density distribution,, can not be attributed at the absorbed energy described in the framework of the classical physics model. It is, in fact, necessary to hypothesize a absorption by discrete values of the energy where the ‘quantum’ is equal to the one necessary to yellow one fibril. http://cab.unime.it/mus/541/1/c1a0802004.pdf
Moreover, the following rather astonishing study on the Shroud, found that it would take 34 Trillion Watts of what is termed VUV (directional) radiation to form the image on the shroud.
Astonishing discovery at Christ’s tomb supports Turin Shroud – NOV 26TH 2016 Excerpt: The first attempts made to reproduce the face on the Shroud by radiation, used a CO2 laser which produced an image on a linen fabric that is similar at a macroscopic level. However, microscopic analysis showed a coloring that is too deep and many charred linen threads, features that are incompatible with the Shroud image. Instead, the results of ENEA “show that a short and intense burst of VUV directional radiation can color a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin, including shades of color, the surface color of the fibrils of the outer linen fabric, and the absence of fluorescence”. ‘However, Enea scientists warn, “it should be noted that the total power of VUV radiations required to instantly color the surface of linen that corresponds to a human of average height, body surface area equal to = 2000 MW/cm2 17000 cm2 = 34 thousand billion watts makes it impractical today to reproduce the entire Shroud image using a single laser excimer, since this power cannot be produced by any VUV light source built to date (the most powerful available on the market come only to several billion watts)”. Comment The ENEA study of the Holy Shroud of Turin concluded that it would take 34 Thousand Billion (trillion) Watts of VUV radiation to make the image on the shroud. This output of electromagnetic energy remains beyond human technology. http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3014106
An atheist recently complained to me that the preceding article is a secondary source, and indeed it is, so I traced the primary source for the article down to here,
DI LAZZARO, P. – MURRA, D. – NICHELATTI, E. – SANTONI, A.- BALDACCHINI, G. – Shroud-like Coloration of Linen by Nanosecond Laser Pulses in the Vacuum Ultraviolet, ENEA Report 2012. Editor’s Note: A similar paper by the same authors also appeared in the peer reviewed journal Applied Optics, Vol. 51, Issue 36, pp. 8567-8578 (2012), titled Superficial and Shroud-like coloration of linen by short laser pulses in the vacuum ultraviolet. [21 January 2013] https://www.shroud.com/library.htm#papers Superficial and Shroud-like coloration of linen by short laser pulses in the vacuum ultraviolet -DI LAZZARO, P. – MURRA, D. – NICHELATTI, E. – SANTONI, A.- BALDACCHINI, G. Applied Optics, Optical Society of America, vol. 51, pp. 8567-8578 (2012), 2012 Abstract We present a survey on five years of experiments of excimer laser irradiation of linen fabrics, seeking a coloration mechanism able to reproduce the microscopic complexity of the body image embedded onto the Shroud of Turin. We achieved a superficial, Shroud-like coloration in a narrow range of irradiation parameters. We also obtained latent coloration that appears after artificial or natural aging of linen following laser irradiations that, at first, did not generate any visible effect. Most importantly, we have recognized photochemical processes that account for both coloration and latent coloration. https://www.academia.edu/3478909/Superficial_and_Shroud-like_coloration_of_linen_by_short_laser_pulses_in_the_vacuum_ultraviolet?auto=download
And here are the slides to a 2017 powerpoint presentation that was given by Paolo Di Lazzaro where he, (at about the 30th slide of the presentation), discusses the 34 thousand billion watt result,
Linen Coloration by Pulsed Radiation. A Review. Slides of the talk presented at the International Conference on the Shroud of Turin, Pasco (USA) July 2017, Paolo Di Lazzaro https://www.academia.edu/38029774/Linen_Coloration_by_Pulsed_Radiation._A_Review
Specifically, Lazzaro’s (approx.) 30th slide in his powerpoint presentation states,
34 thousand billion watt is an impressive number but,, * Back to basics: let us consider the fraction A/B. If B is very small then A/B results in a very large number.,,, * 17 joules energy/0.00000001 seconds results in 1.7 billion watt. It is called “peak power” which different of the commonly used “average power”. * The above peak power was delivered to 1 cm^2 flax. Being the average man skin surface = 2 m^2 = 20,000 cm^2, we have 34 thousand billion watt necessary to complete the body image on the Shroud.
bornagain77
December 2, 2021
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When scrutinizing some of the many fascinating details of the Shroud of Turin, we find that both General Relativity, i.e. gravity, and Quantum Mechanics were both dealt with in Christ's resurrection from the dead. As can be seen in the following 'backside' image, and holographic image videos, from the Shroud of Turin, there is no flattening on the backside of the body as would be expected if the image on the Shroud had formed if a dead body had merely been laying flat on the Shroud as the image was being formed.
Shroud image - backside https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/jPxzJOtRHgLSddLOYbOQ_kpvXUV6aOt0mG-8DZeeEXj7uFSr63hqsGbgknwNBEFFFtrayZsYH8ONdXznreuD1TnOxYOeM72QFFuydody6Bpb1FJ2yNoMLabv_Kub7LA Shroud Hologram - backside image https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYBcIX1YLCg Shroud Hologram - double backside image https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3W0l_sdhZs
For anyone who doubts that the holographic images of the Shroud of Turin are authentic, (or for anyone who just wants to do further research), here is the main website describing how the holographic images were derived:
Shroud 3D - Petrus Soons https://shroud3d.com 3D MOVIES OF THE HEAD AND BODY THREE DIMENSIONAL MOVIES OF THE HEAD AND THE FRONT AND THE BACK OF THE BODY https://shroud3d.com/conversion-of-2d-to-3d/3d-movies-of-the-head-and-body/
Moreover, in the following video Isabel Piczek, who made a sculpture from the Shroud of Turin states that, "The muscles of the body are absolutely not crushed against the stone of the tomb. They are perfect. It means the body is hovering between the two sides of the shroud. What does that mean? It means there is absolutely no gravity."
“When you look at the image of the shroud, the two bodies next to each other, you feel that it is a flat image. But if you create, for instance, a three dimensional object, as I did, the real body, then you realize that there is a strange dividing element. An interface from which the image is projected up and the image is projected down. The muscles of the body are absolutely not crushed against the stone of the tomb. They are perfect. It means the body is hovering between the two sides of the shroud. What does that mean? It means there is absolutely no gravity. Other strange you discover is that the image is absolutely undistorted. Now if you imagine the clothe was wrinkled, tied, wrapped around the body, and all of the sudden you see a perfect image, which is impossible unless the shroud was made absolutely taut, rigidly taut.” Isabel Piczek - 2:20 mark Turin shroud – (Particle Physicist explains event horizon) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIpdIz5Rp3I
As well, Kevin Moran, an optical engineer who has studied the Shroud of Turin, describes the Shroud Image in this way, “The unique front-and-back only image can be best described as gravitationally collimated. The radiation that made the image acted perfectly parallel to gravity. There is no side image. The radiation is parallel to gravity,,,”
Optically Terminated Image Pixels Observed on Frei 1978 Samples – Kevin E. Moran – 1999 Discussion Pia’s negative photograph, from 1898, showed what looked to be a body that was glowing, but slightly submerged in a bath of cloudy water. This condition is more properly described as an image that is visible, at a distance, but by locally attenuated radiation. The unique front-and-back only image can be best described as gravitationally collimated. The radiation that made the image acted perfectly parallel to gravity. There is no side image. The radiation is parallel to gravity and, if moving at light speed, only lasted about 100 picoseconds. It is particulate in nature, colliding only with some of the fibers. It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique,,, Theoretical model It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discontinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed. Discussion The fact that the pixels don’t fluoresce suggests that the conversion to their now brittle dehydrated state occurred instantly and completely so no partial products remain to be activated by the ultraviolet light. This suggests a quantum event where a finite amount of energy transferred abruptly. The fact that there are images front and back suggests the radiating particles were released along the gravity vector. The radiation pressure may also help explain why the blood was “lifted cleanly” from the body as it transformed to a resurrected state.” https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/moran.pdf
bornagain77
December 2, 2021
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WJM holds that "there’s no way to logically, evidentially connect Jesus to God" In rebuttal I said "I beg to differ" and referenced this video:
Jesus Christ as the correct “Theory of Everything” – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpn2Vu8–eE
In response WJM again doubted that "ONLY" God would have the "infinite" power necessary to resurrect Jesus from the dead and stated "any being with the power to do that, or any being whose resurrection would leave that evidence, whether it had anything to do with God or not." Obviously, implicit in WJM's remark is the assumption that it did not take the infinite power of God to resurrect Jesus from the dead, but some powerful, but finite, being "with the power to do that" could also possibly have resurrected himself, or someone else, from the dead. WJM is wrong in his assumption that it did not take the infinite Mind of God to resurrect Jesus from the dead but that a finite, but powerful, being could possibly resurrect himself, or someone else, from the dead. As I explained in the video that I referenced, "Jesus Christ as the correct “Theory of Everything”", the main problem in mathematically unifying General Relativity with Quantum Mechanics into a single mathematical "theory of everything" is that there is a 'infinite mathematical divide' that forever separates the two theories from ever being unified into a single mathematical framework. Professor Jeremy Bernstein states the "infinite mathematical divide" situation as such, “there remains an irremediable difficulty. Every order reveals new types of infinities, and no finite number of renormalizations renders all the terms in the series finite. The theory is not renormalizable.”
Quantum Leaps – Jeremy Bernstein – October 19, 2018 Excerpt: Divergent series notwithstanding, quantum electrodynamics yielded results of remarkable accuracy. Consider the magnetic moment of the electron. This calculation, which has been calculated up to the fifth order in ?, agrees with experiment to ten parts in a billion. If one continued the calculation to higher and higher orders, at some point the series would begin to break down. There is no sign of that as yet. Why not carry out a similar program for gravitation? One can readily write down the Feynman graphs that represent the terms in the expansion. Yet there remains an irremediable difficulty. Every order reveals new types of infinities, and no finite number of renormalizations renders all the terms in the series finite. The theory is not renormalizable. https://inference-review.com/article/quantum-leaps Jeremy Bernstein is professor emeritus of physics at the Stevens Institute of Technology.
And as theoretical physicist Sera Cremonini stated, “You would need to add infinitely many counterterms in a never-ending process. Renormalization would fail.,,,”
Why Gravity Is Not Like the Other Forces We asked four physicists why gravity stands out among the forces of nature. We got four different answers. Excerpt: the quantum version of Einstein’s general relativity is “nonrenormalizable.”,,, In quantum theories, infinite terms appear when you try to calculate how very energetic particles scatter off each other and interact. In theories that are renormalizable — which include the theories describing all the forces of nature other than gravity — we can remove these infinities in a rigorous way by appropriately adding other quantities that effectively cancel them, so-called counterterms. This renormalization process leads to physically sensible answers that agree with experiments to a very high degree of accuracy. The problem with a quantum version of general relativity is that the calculations that would describe interactions of very energetic gravitons — the quantized units of gravity — would have infinitely many infinite terms. You would need to add infinitely many counterterms in a never-ending process. Renormalization would fail.,,, Sera Cremonini – theoretical physicist – Lehigh University https://www.quantamagazine.org/why-gravity-is-not-like-the-other-forces-20200615/
And as Michio Kaku himself noted in the following video, “In fact, you get an infinite sequence of infinities, (which is) infinitely worse than the divergences of Einstein’s original theory (i.e. General Relativity).”
“Here is the problem (with black holes), right there, when ‘r’ (radius) is equal to zero, The point at which physics itself breaks down. So 1 over ‘r’ equals 1 over 0 equals infinity. To a mathematician infinity is simply a number without limit. To a physicist it is a monstrosity. It means first of all that gravity is infinite at the center of a black hole. That time stops. And what does that mean? Space makes no sense. It means the collapse of everything we know about the physical universe. In the real world there is no such thing as infinity. Therefore there is a fundamental flaw in the formulation of Einstein’s theory.” (And as Michio Kaku then notes when you try to combine General Relativity with Quantum Mechanics), “And when you do this integral, you get something which makes no sense whatsoever. An infinity. Total nonsense. In fact, you get an infinite sequence of infinities, (which is) infinitely worse than the divergences of Einstein’s original theory (i.e. General Relativity).” Quantum Mechanics & Relativity – Michio Kaku - The Collapse Of Physics As We Know It ? - video Science vs God Its The Collapse Of Physics As We Know it - video https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2jbd7x
In short, it would take the 'actual infinity' of God, as opposed to the 'potential infinity' of a finite, yet powerful, being to bridge the infinite mathematical divide that exists between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics,
Potential Infinity vs. Actual Infinity - June 7, 2012 by Ryan Excerpt: In a potential infinity, one can keep adding or subdividing without end, but one never actually reaches infinity. In a sense, a potential infinity is an endless process that at any point along the way is finite. By contrast, in an actual infinity, the infinite is viewed as a completed totality. http://www.numbersleuth.org/trends/potential-vs-actual-infinity/
At this point someone may very well ask, "What does bridging the infinite mathematical divide between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics" have to do with proving that infinite God resurrected Jesus from the dead?" Glad you asked, Dr. William Dembski in this following comment, although he was not directly addressing the ‘infinite mathematical divide’ that exists between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, offers this insight into what the ‘unification’ of infinite God with finite man might look like mathematically: Specifically he states, “The Cross is a path of humility in which the infinite God becomes finite and then contracts to zero, only to resurrect and thereby unite a finite humanity within a newfound infinity.”
The End Of Christianity – Finding a Good God in an Evil World – Pg.31 William Dembski PhDs. Mathematics and Theology Excerpt: “In mathematics there are two ways to go to infinity. One is to grow large without measure. The other is to form a fraction in which the denominator goes to zero. The Cross is a path of humility in which the infinite God becomes finite and then contracts to zero, only to resurrect and thereby unite a finite humanity within a newfound infinity.” http://www.designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf
And I hold 'growing large without measure' to be a ‘lesser quality’ infinity, i.e. to be merely a 'potential infinity', than the 'actual infinity' that is arrived at when the denominator goes to zero in a fraction. The main reason for why I hold growing large without measure to be a 'lesser quality infinity', i.e. to be merely a 'potential infinity', than the 'actual infinity' that is arrived at when the denominator goes to zero in a fraction is because something that begins to grow large without measure must necessarily have some sort of beginning in time and must also necessarily have some sort of preexistent infinite space to grow into. Whereas, on the other hand, to form a fraction in which the denominator goes to zero is to force a finite object into a type of infinity that can have no discernible beginning in time nor discernible place in space. Which is to say, to form a fraction in which the denominator goes to zero is to force a finite object into a 'actual infinity' as opposed to the finite object merely being a 'potential infinity' that begins to grow large without measure. But do we have any empirical evidence that Jesus Christ bridged the infinite mathematical divide that exists between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics with the 'actual infinity' of his resurrection from the dead? Yes we do! When scrutinizing some of the many fascinating details of the Shroud of Turin, (which is, by far, the MOST scientifically scrutinized ancient relic of man),
Scientific Papers & Articles (on the Shroud of Turin) https://www.shroud.com/library.htm#papers
bornagain77
December 2, 2021
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Querius said:
My point was that our perspectives regarding the Creator of space-time, mass-energy, gravity, quantum mechanics, consciousness, information, and everything else, not going to have our limited perspectives and intelligence. As I said before . . .
Whatever God is or is capable of, it cannot be the deliberate creator of space-time. That's a logical impossibility, as far as I can tell. Also, God cannot be the creator of consciousness or information. To be clear, God may be the ground wherein such things can be said to exist, but God cannot perform a logically impossible task. Not even God can draw a square circle.William J Murray
December 2, 2021
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BA77 said:
So now you believe that an external, physical, world exists outside your, or my, mind?
I explained this in my post here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/outlining-a-functional-mental-reality-theory/
Innumerable individuals can have included in their individual data sets large blocks of arranged information which they are, essentially, sharing. The algorithmic expression of such data blocks, even with innumerable individual variances of data not contained in the shared data block, could result in what we observe as a shared, external, physical world. In fact, it may be that the “external physical world” is a data block that acts as filtering information that other individual information is processed through – at least to a large degree.
This clearly demonstrates that yes, I've always said there is lots of information outside of my particular mind, and that an enormous amount of information, the block of data that informs our apparent experience of an external physical world, is being shared by multiple people. I've also stated that there is an infinite amount of data that represents entirely different worlds. So while there is an infinite amount of information that is not currently within my personal, local mind, it still resides in universal mind, and there are ways for me to direct my psychology to find and process that information - which I've had some success doing. BA77 said:
But,, but,,, you chastised me precisely for believing a external, physical, world can exist outside of my mind?
I corrected your misinterpretations of several things I've said.William J Murray
December 2, 2021
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William J Murray @85, Thanks for making my point about the relevance of context, definitions, and perspectives. 2 apples plus 1 orange equals 3 items, so yes, you can add dissimilar items. But in context of chemistry, 2 molecules of hydrogen plus 1 molecule of oxygen reacts to form 2 molecules of water, not 3 molecules. Your example of droplets is also appropriate. Also, notice that the speed of light from the headlights in a fast moving automobile is additive, thus c + v(auto) = c. My point was that our perspectives regarding the Creator of space-time, mass-energy, gravity, quantum mechanics, consciousness, information, and everything else, not going to have our limited perspectives and intelligence. As I said before . . .
All these prove that we should be extremely open and humble when considering God, and that we cannot reach God neither with a physical Tower of Babel nor any system of logic. God’s existence and presence can only be revealed to us either directly or by his creation.
-QQuerius
December 1, 2021
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