Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Insane or Simply Wrong?

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David W. Gibson asks some interesting questions in a comment to johnnyb’s last post.  First, he writes concerning Darwinism:  “How could it ever have come to pass that tens of thousands of the most intelligent humans in the world, after decades of detailed study, could STILL fall victim to the ‘transparently ludicrous’?”

Let me answer this question by referring to a couple of similar examples from hisotry.

In the second century Ptolemy devised his system of cosmology.  In this system each planet moves along a “deferent” and an “epicycle.”  The planet’s movement along these two paths cause it to move closer to and further away from the earth.  For the system to work, the planets sometimes had to slow down, stop, and even move backwards.

Tens of thousands of the most intelligent humans in the world ascribed to Ptolemy’s cosmology from the publication of Almagest around 150 until well after the publication of De revolutionibus orbium coelestium in 1543.

But this system of deferents and epicycles is “transparently ludicrous” you say.  And so it is in retrospect.  Nevertheless it reigned nearly unchallenged for well over 1,000 years.

Here’s another example.  Humorism.  “This theory holds that the human body was filled with four basic substances, called humors, which are in balance when a person is healthy, and all diseases and disabilities result from an excess or deficit of one of these four humors. These deficits could be caused by vapors that were inhaled or absorbed by the body. The four humors were black bile, yellow bile, phlegm, and blood.”  Wikipedia.

Humorism was the prevailing medical orthodoxy from the time of Galen (circa 150 AD).  It was not definitively displaced until 1858 when Rudolf Virchow published his work on cellular pathology.

Your phrase “transparently ludicrous” comes readily to mind when we think about humorism now.  Yet it was the prevailing orthodoxy among tens of thousands of brilliant medical practitioners for nearly 2,000 years.

Now suppose one of Copernicus’ critics (and he had many; his theory was not accepted immediately) had said, “Hey Copernicus, how could it ever have come to pass that tens of thousands of the most intelligent humans in the world, after 1,393 years of detailed study, could still fall victim to  a theory of cosmology that, if you are correct, is transparently ludicrous?”

Or suppose one of Virchow’s critics had said, “Hey wait a minute!  How could it ever have come to pass that tens of thousands of the most intelligent humans in the world, after nearly 2,000 years of detailed study, could still fall victim to a theory of medicine that, if you are correct, is transparently ludicrous?”

I will put it to you David.  How should Copernicus or Virchow have answered those questions?

Finally you write:  “Centuries of scientific progress can only be explained by mass insanity. Does that work for you?”

First, I don’t know where you get “centuries.”  Origin was published in 1859.  That’s 153 years ago by my count.  Darwin has over 1,000 years to go before he reaches the same status as Ptolemy or Galen based on mere “age of the theory.”

Second, “mass insanity” is a nice strawman.  No one has suggested that someone who believes in Darwinism is insane.  They are simply wrong.

Were all cosmologists from Ptolemy to Copernicus insane?  No, they were simply wrong.

Were all doctors from Galen to Virchow insane?  No, they were simply wrong.

The essence of your argument for Darwinism is:  “All the smart people believe it; it must be true.”  I hope you understand now that that argument is not as airtight as you seem to think it is.

Comments
Joe,
Modern evolutionary theory is contradicted by everything we know. We have no evidence that accumlations of random events can construct useful multi-part systems. No analogies, nothing.
No point in me saying anything then is there?
Independent evidence for the designer? BS, you want an interview.
Hardly. Never mind.
. . . it maintains that there are strict limits to the amount and quality of variations that material mechanisms such as natural selection and random genetic change can alone produce.
Like I suspected, ID is NOT okay with pure, Darwinian, natural processes only, speciation. At least this definition is not okay with that.
The verdict is not yet in, and proponents of intelligent design themselves hold differing views on the extent of the evolutionary interconnectedness of organisms, with some even accepting universal common ancestry (ie Darwin’s great tree of life).
Yes . . . and where do you stand on this issue?
Intelligent Design is not necessarily incompatible with common ancestry.
In my mind, common ancestry is an all or nothing thing: tweaks along the way by a designer mean NOT common ancestry. But that's just me. So, ID says a certain amount of common ancestry is okay but there's a limit to how much purely natural processes can do in terms of creating morphological differences. At some points along the way, the designer had to give the process boosts to help create new species/types. Yup, knew that.Jerad
June 4, 2012
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The theory of intelligent design (ID) neither requires nor excludes speciation- even speciation by Darwinian mechanisms. ID is sometimes confused with a static view of species, as though species were designed to be immutable. This is a conceptual possibility within ID, but it is not the only possibility. ID precludes neither significant variation within species nor the evolution of new species from earlier forms. Rather, it maintains that there are strict limits to the amount and quality of variations that material mechanisms such as natural selection and random genetic change can alone produce. At the same time, it holds that intelligence is fully capable of supplementing such mechanisms, interacting and influencing the material world, and thereby guiding it into certain physical states to the exclusion of others. To effect such guidance, intelligence must bring novel information to expression inside living forms. Exactly how this happens remains for now an open question, to be answered on the basis of scientific evidence. The point to note, however, is that intelligence can itself be a source of biological novelties that lead to macroevolutionary changes. In this way intelligent design is compatible with speciation. page 109 of "The Design of Life"
and
And that brings us to a true either-or. If the choice between common design and common ancestry is a false either-or, the choice between intelligent design and materialistic evolution is a true either-or. Materialistic evolution does not only embrace common ancestry; it also rejects any real design in the evolutionary process. Intelligent design, by contrast, contends that biological design is real and empirically detectable regardless of whether it occurs within an evolutionary process or in discrete independent stages. The verdict is not yet in, and proponents of intelligent design themselves hold differing views on the extent of the evolutionary interconnectedness of organisms, with some even accepting universal common ancestry (ie Darwin’s great tree of life). Common ancestry in combination with common design can explain the similar features that arise in biology. The real question is whether common ancestry apart from common design- in other words, materialistic evolution- can do so. The evidence of biology increasingly demonstrates that it cannot.- Ibid page 142
And from one more pro-ID book:
Many assume that if common ancestry is true, then the only viable scientific position is Darwinian evolution- in which all organisms are descended from a common ancestor via random mutation and blind selection. Such an assumption is incorrect- Intelligent Design is not necessarily incompatible with common ancestry.- page 217 of “Intelligent Design 101”
Joe
June 4, 2012
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Yes Jerad- I knew what you were going to say but what you say is evidence-free and therefor meaningless. And yes, Dembski and Wells even say ID is OK with speciation via Darwinian processes. Heck yes if you break a bunch of things then the broken stuff may not resemable nor be able to mate with the unbroken parent population. Speciation isn't any big deal- geological isolation, leading to different ecological surroundings. Modern evolutionary theory is contradicted by everything we know. We have no evidence that accumlations of random events can construct useful multi-part systems. No analogies, nothing. Independent evidence for the designer? BS, you want an interview.Joe
June 4, 2012
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Joe, The mechanism . . . well, you know what I'm going to say. Common descent through modification and natural selection, sexual selection, genetic drift and other filters. The mutations come at a random rate. Unless you have clear evidence to the contrary then assuming they're random models the system nicely. Again, I consider the mentioned lines of evidence to be . . . evidence. And without independent and clear evidence for a designer present at the times in question (where's the contraflow?) . . . and considering that the modern evolutionary model is not contradicted by any of the lines of evidence then . . . I have no reason to reject it. I do not believe that ID and YEC are OK with pure Darwinian speciation, i.e. via purely natural processes. And if they are then what are they saying exactly 'cause I'm confused. I'll answer your questions if you answer mine!Jerad
June 4, 2012
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Jerad:
I think the fossil, genomic, biogeographic and morphological records make the case.
What case? Not one of those speaks of any mechanism.
I think examples from known history (dogs, brassicas, many flowers) show that selection acting on a stream of random mutations can create major morphological changes and even new species.
Except we don't know if the mutations are/ were random.
Additionally I don’t see a problem extending the effect of cumulative selection over long periods of time in order to create, via natural processes, all the life forms we have information about via functional paths linking them all.
That's fine. However there still isn't any evidence that random mutations can accumulate in such a way as to give rise to new and useful multi-protein configurations. BTW both ID and YEC are OK with speciation, even via Darwinian means.Joe
June 4, 2012
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Joe, I think the fossil, genomic, biogeographic and morphological records make the case. I think examples from known history (dogs, brassicas, many flowers) show that selection acting on a stream of random mutations can create major morphological changes and even new species. Additionally I don't see a problem extending the effect of cumulative selection over long periods of time in order to create, via natural processes, all the life forms we have information about via functional paths linking them all. But you knew I was going to say that!! Sorry to disappoint you. But I would like to add that the truth of evolutionary theory does not depend on my poor ability to defend it. I am trying to see what ID has to say about some of the issues surrounding the creation of new species and I think I am getting some good insights. But I seem to be defending my own opinion a lot more than I was hoping!! I accept that there has to be a conversation but, honestly, nothing I say is going to surprise anyone!Jerad
June 4, 2012
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Sorry for screwing up the blockquotes AGAIN! Not sure I'm intelligently designed! hahahahahahhahahahahahaJerad
June 4, 2012
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Jerad- YOU need to make a case for random mutations accumulating in such a wat as to give rise to new and useful multi-protein configurations. Until then you don't have anything but special pleading.Joe
June 4, 2012
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CLAVDIVS- If the mutations are directed via some internal program to meet some end, then they ain't really random.Joe
June 4, 2012
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GEM,
You are substituting a discussion well within a body plan for the challenge to account for a body plan’s origins. That per mutations, cabbages and kin are relatives, is irrelevant to how we get to the underlying body plan.
I think a body plan came from its parents' and grandparents' and etc, etc, etc. There is no jump to an island of functionality according to evolutionary theory. We disagree and sometimes reasonable people do that. I've heard Dr Meyer's (and others') argument. I'm not sayikng I know how life got going but once it did there would be no islands of functionality. Hills and mountains . . . maybe, but no islands.
This is disappointing.
Don't take it personally!
Where also, by the integrated nature of such complex functional organisation, only relatively tight and isolated clusters of configs in the sea of possibilities, will work, i.e we have good reason to expect islands, not vast connected continents of function in config spaces.
But, if life got going in an area of functionality then everything else descended from it would be in that same area/land mass. We don't really know how many continents of functionality there are . . . maybe only one big one? Existing genomes vary widely in size along with the number of chromosomes. How do you know, for sure, that there are ANY islands of functionality that are isolated from all other life forms? Anyway, evolutionary theory says only functional life forms pass on their genes so there is a tree/bush/shrub of common descent.
You will observe, that you were unable to show a case of origin of body plans on chance plus necessity per observation, instead you were left with gross extrapolations from cabbages and kin.
I have agreed the OoL has not been determined. But evolutionary theory doesn't address that. Kind of like how ID doesn't address aspects of the designer eh? Maybe not. But I admit I'm not even attempting to answer the question!!
We are well warranted to infer on induction that like causes like, and that the relevant FSCO/I in life forms is credibly designed.
I think that life forms give rise to similar life forms. And that slowly, step-by-step they change. I disagree with you about the reasons behind the rise of evolutionary thinking but I'd prefer just to stick with the theory and what it is saying in its current form. GEM . . . I'm sorry I disappoint you. I do understand the arguments you make . . . I just find another explanation more plausible. Oh well!! Joe,
The problem is no one on this planet knows if any mutations are random by any definition of the word.
Well, when studied the distribution of mutations matches a random distribution so we treat them that way. IF some designer is tweaking the genomes a few base pairs at a time at random intervals, frequently creating non-viable individuals then I guess we can't test that. If we can't test it or isolate it then it's not really a scientific question.
If the OoL was designed then evolution is designed which means the mutations are not random.
I can see a case where the OoL was designed or seeded and then left to run on naturally in which case the mutations could still be random. But if you can make the case a bit more specifically I'll listen.
Jerad
June 4, 2012
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Joe @ 183 Why couldn't evolution be designed to include random mutations, like a Monte Carlo program? CheersCLAVDIVS
June 4, 2012
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Jerad- The problem is no one on this planet knows if any mutations are random by any definition of the word. That is why the OoL is so important as the ONLY way to say the mutations are random is if living organisms arose from non-living matter via random chemical and physical interactions of matter and energy. If the OoL was designed then evolution is designed which means the mutations are not random.Joe
June 4, 2012
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J:
I’m just not prepared to say sequences of step-by-step mutations along a functional path CAN NOT do this or that. It’s a negative argument, which is always suspect AND I think ALL the available evidence (fossil, genetic, bio-geographic, morphologic) indicates a great deal is possible. And I think there is more evidence accumulating every day to support that contention.
This is disappointing. First, we have abundant evidence and well warranted induction that (a) intelligence is a commonly observed source of FSCO/I, (b) that it is the only actually observed source, (c ) that per the needle in haystack considerations, the other source of high contingency, chance is maximally unlikely to hit on islands of function. Where also, (d) by the integrated nature of such complex functional organisation, only relatively tight and isolated clusters of configs in the sea of possibilities, will work, i.e we have good reason to expect islands, not vast connected continents of function in config spaces. That is a very positive induction that hen allows us to apply the inductive inference that such FSCO/I is an empirically reliable and analytically credible sign of intelligence as cause, with particular reference to coded algorithmic and/or linguistic information. In that context, we see that first life and novel body plans require increments of just such coded info, of order 100 - 1,000 k bits in the first instance and 10 - 100 mn bits in the instances of various body plans. This warrants a positive inference from sign to signified known adequate cause. You will observe, that you were unable to show a case of origin of body plans on chance plus necessity per observation, instead you were left with gross extrapolations from cabbages and kin. Indeed, here is the actual reasonable summary of the fossil record, per Gould in his last book:
. . . long term stasis following geologically abrupt origin of most fossil morphospecies, has always been recognized by professional paleontologists. [[p. 752.] . . . . The great majority of species do not show any appreciable evolutionary change at all. These species appear in the section [[first occurrence] without obvious ancestors in the underlying beds, are stable once established and disappear higher up without leaving any descendants." [[p. 753.] . . . . proclamations for the supposed ‘truth’ of gradualism - asserted against every working paleontologist’s knowledge of its rarity - emerged largely from such a restriction of attention to exceedingly rare cases under the false belief that they alone provided a record of evolution at all! The falsification of most ‘textbook classics’ upon restudy only accentuates the fallacy of the ‘case study’ method and its root in prior expectation rather than objective reading of the fossil record. [[p. 773. The Structure of Evolutionary Theory (2002)]
We ave on one hand a known, observed, adequate causal factor and a known tested reliable sign of it. We have on the other, a suggestion based on gross extrapolation without observation of being able to cross the relevant threshold. On the third, we have cases in point from the natural world that show the sign in superlative degree. We are well warranted to infer on induction that like causes like, and that the relevant FSCO/I in life forms is credibly designed. What he usual lines of evidence proffered show, is not the gradual branching pattern, but adaptation of existing body plans, Consistently, they fall silent and are replaced by speculative reconstructions when it comes to the origin of said plans. Starting with the first, extending through the Cambrian life revolution, and going on farther yet. Why, then, has this view taken and held institutional dominance? Because, in the first instance, on a misreading of Newton, deism led to the idea of an autonomous clockwork nature unfolding on its own inner dynamics becoming dominant among the educated elites of Europe [BTW, this is a Christian heresy, the Hebraic/Biblical view is that the order of the cosmos is sustained by the active will of the Creator]. That in turn led to Hume's errors, by which the miraculous was mis-defined, strawmannised and dismissed, and by which a selective hyperskepticism was injected into the discussion of anything that smacked of "the supernatural." It is in this climate that Darwin et al took the next "logical" step -- actually, it was only the further working out of the separating forces of a civilisational divide, a watershed, whereby the idea was extended to the origin of life forms, that inner forces naturally at work could explain all. And, as this gained currency and became conventional wisdom, it led to the idea that to see design or to infer that there was a Creator, was suspect or worse. Thus, we had the rise of an a priori materialism and scientism dressed up in the holy lab coat. So, we have a situation where in the 60 years since the evidence of the algorithmic, information system based complexity of life has begun to be fully understood, we have a climate that blocks the obvious "child watching the parade" observation: the Emperor is utterly naked, given what we know about the source of such information systems. The arguments being offered in "justification" of the idea that nope, the Emperor is wearing subtle clothes visible to the eye of faith, are increasingly threadbare. Philip Johnson's rebuke to Lewontin's notorious January 1997 NYRB article, is apt:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
The Emperor, I am afraid, is naked. KFkairosfocus
June 4, 2012
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F/N: Observe, again, that the focus here is not going to be incremental adaptations within a body plan [whether the cabbage family or the circumpolar gulls or the family of the red deer or the cichlids or dogs and wolves etc], but the origin of body plans, which of course includes the origin of the first one. It may be useful to highlight Meyer's 2004 article on the Cambrian life revo:
The Cambrian explosion represents a remarkable jump in the specified complexity or "complex specified information" (CSI) of the biological world. For over three billions years, the biological realm included little more than bacteria and algae (Brocks et al. 1999). Then, beginning about 570-565 million years ago (mya), the first complex multicellular organisms appeared in the rock strata, including sponges, cnidarians, and the peculiar Ediacaran biota (Grotzinger et al. 1995). Forty million years later, the Cambrian explosion occurred (Bowring et al. 1993) . . . One way to estimate the amount of new CSI that appeared with the Cambrian animals is to count the number of new cell types that emerged with them (Valentine 1995:91-93) . . . the more complex animals that appeared in the Cambrian (e.g., arthropods) would have required fifty or more cell types . . . New cell types require many new and specialized proteins. New proteins, in turn, require new genetic information. Thus an increase in the number of cell types implies (at a minimum) a considerable increase in the amount of specified genetic information. Molecular biologists have recently estimated that a minimally complex single-celled organism would require between 318 and 562 kilobase pairs of DNA to produce the proteins necessary to maintain life (Koonin 2000). More complex single cells might require upward of a million base pairs. Yet to build the proteins necessary to sustain a complex arthropod such as a trilobite would require orders of magnitude more coding instructions. The genome size of a modern arthropod, the fruitfly Drosophila melanogaster, is approximately 180 million base pairs (Gerhart & Kirschner 1997:121, Adams et al. 2000). Transitions from a single cell to colonies of cells to complex animals represent significant (and, in principle, measurable) increases in CSI . . . . In order to explain the origin of the Cambrian animals, one must account not only for new proteins and cell types, but also for the origin of new body plans . . . Mutations in genes that are expressed late in the development of an organism will not affect the body plan. Mutations expressed early in development, however, could conceivably produce significant morphological change (Arthur 1997:21) . . . [but] processes of development are tightly integrated spatially and temporally such that changes early in development will require a host of other coordinated changes in separate but functionally interrelated developmental processes downstream. For this reason, mutations will be much more likely to be deadly if they disrupt a functionally deeply-embedded structure such as a spinal column than if they affect more isolated anatomical features such as fingers (Kauffman 1995:200) . . . McDonald notes that genes that are observed to vary within natural populations do not lead to major adaptive changes, while genes that could cause major changes--the very stuff of macroevolution--apparently do not vary. In other words, mutations of the kind that macroevolution doesn't need (namely, viable genetic mutations in DNA expressed late in development) do occur, but those that it does need (namely, beneficial body plan mutations expressed early in development) apparently don't occur.6
I would add to this, that the same issue of explaining origin of integrated, complex functional information and organisation highlights the OOL as a pivotal issue. Design is the best, empirically warranted, adequate explanation for OOL. But once that is in the door, it is natural that this also would explain body plans. KFkairosfocus
June 4, 2012
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J: You are substituting a discussion well within a body plan for the challenge to account for a body plan's origins. That per mutations, cabbages and kin are relatives, is irrelevant to how we get to the underlying body plan. This is a case of gross and unwarranted extrapolation, as I highlighted; it is not at all parallel to the case of origin of a bird's lungs or wings, etc. KFkairosfocus
June 4, 2012
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Joe, It most certainly was not natural selection. And no indication the mutations were not random; as far as I know the mutations occurred at the normal, random rate. I don't meditate.Jerad
June 3, 2012
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Jerad- How do you know it was random mutations and natural selection that was responsible for the brassicas? Did you meditate and it came to you?Joe
June 3, 2012
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Eugene, I agree the OoL question is unanswered and wide open but I hope that sometime soon some progress is made . . . 'cause I'm really curious!! And, as I said, I think the other real evolution vs ID question IS how do you get from one rung on the ladder to the next. That's the island vs continent issue. Are there functional mutational paths between existing life forms or not? Ah, but messages are not living organisms. Have you looked at the brassicas? In less than 1000 years selection and random mutations have created a HUGE variety of significantly different morphologies. A casual observer (or a fossil hunter?) would assume some of the varieties were different species. I'm just not prepared to say sequences of step-by-step mutations along a functional path CAN NOT do this or that. It's a negative argument, which is always suspect AND I think ALL the available evidence (fossil, genetic, bio-geographic, morphologic) indicates a great deal is possible. And I think there is more evidence accumulating every day to support that contention. I can never get anyone to look at the brassicas. I don't know if it's because it's a stupid example or a slam-dunk!!Jerad
June 3, 2012
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KF, #173, I think it's one of your best posts. Jerad, AS far as I understand, ID argument is the same applied to the OOL and to biodiversity. The genome discrepancies are so vast that they, too, just don't fit in the natural history of the world, given the current estimates of the age of the world and the rates of physico-chemical interactions we currently observe. E.g. I believe that design "intervention" needed to get from prokaryotes to eukaryotes. Genomic adaptations are observed and that is fine. But the island vs continent of functions issue still remains to be addressed in earnest. Occasional tiny decreases of Shennon uncertainty are fine (take for example an automatic decrease of Shennon uncertainty in error auto-correction, given the initial meaningful message). However, information is not just to do with uncertainty. Information is always about something. No one has ever observed that the aboutness of information, i.e. its inherent property, its semantic load, can be set without intelligence. I believe it is only the aboutness side of information that can take us from one functional island to another island. In practice, you cannot jump from one meaningful message to another substantially different message without intelligence. Adaptations are only observed to act within the confines of the informational screenplay already defined.Eugene S
June 3, 2012
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GEM, Thanks again for taking the time out of your busy day to give a thoughtful answer.
. . . but the key point is that incremental adaptations within islands of function amidst vast seas of non-function, do not answer to how one gets from initial arbitrary configs to shorelines of function per chance plus necessity.
I agree that the initial, self-replicating starting point (or points) is not addressed but surely what evolutionary theory is saying is that once self-replication gets going then there are no islands of function but a vast, spreading continent of biological function, of interconnected, common descent. In order to reproduce a life form had to have been at least viable long enough to have 'offspring' so it was, at least, minimally functional. Their is a question of how the process got started but after that it's just a matter of showing increments can become fixed in the greater gene pool and can create new morphologies. I am not familiar with the issues surrounding the origination of the avian lung and wing but the question seems to me to be more of a irreducible complexity one: is it possible to get from one functional state to another. Not from one island to another but from one viable life form to another via a path of functionality. I understand that complex specified information does not just appear but the evolutionary argument is not that. The genomes of all living things came about from previous genomes which coded for viable, functional flora and fauna. Some of the ancestral life forms no longer exist but in their time they were the winners. So, if any given genome did not just appear then the real issue is asking whether the information it contains could have come about in a step-wise fashion whereas Dr Dembski's explanatory filter is only looking at one step on the genomic ladder and asking if it looks too improbable to have come about naturally rather than could it have come from a previous step. Even complex, human designed inanimate objects don't just appear. With pyramids and stone circles and cathedrals and pocket watches there is evidence that the humans who made them took variations on existing, functional objects and tested them. Some design variations were probably accidents. The good designs were kept and modified further, the bad designs were abandoned. Some gothic cathedrals collapsed as did some pyramids, their designs were bad. That's the kind of intelligent design we have experience of not the creation of something complex out of nothing. And if the intelligent designer of ID worked in the same way then the real question is: is there a step-by-step natural, functional path from one life form to another or one that requires an outside hand? I don't think we're really that far off from each other, I just see the real question to be much more focused. I agree that the human genome is too improbable to have come about by a brute force search of the sample space. But that's not what evolutionary theory is saying happened. There is no 'wind in a junkyard makes a 747' argument and it seems, to me, that the explanatory filter is attacking that argument and not the one actually made by evolutionary theory.Jerad
June 3, 2012
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F/N: WmAD in NFL, on CSI:
p. 148: “The great myth of contemporary evolutionary biology is that the information needed to explain complex biological structures can be purchased without intelligence. My aim throughout this book is to dispel that myth . . . . Eigen and his colleagues must have something else in mind besides information simpliciter when they describe the origin of information as the central problem of biology. I submit that what they have in mind is specified complexity [[cf. here below], or what equivalently we have been calling in this Chapter Complex Specified information or CSI . . . . Biological specification always refers to function . . . In virtue of their function [[a living organism's subsystems] embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified in the sense required by the complexity-specificity criterion . . . the specification can be cashed out in any number of ways [[through observing the requisites of functional organisation within the cell, or in organs and tissues or at the level of the organism as a whole] . . .” p. 144: [[Specified complexity can be defined:] “. . . since a universal probability bound of 1 [[chance] in 10^150 corresponds to a universal complexity bound of 500 bits of information, [[the cluster] (T, E) constitutes CSI because T [[ effectively the target hot zone in the field of possibilities] subsumes E [[ effectively the observed event from that field], T is detachable from E, and and T measures at least 500 bits of information . . . ”
Notice the link to how I derived the simplified Chi_500 metric, and the onward (revised) needle in the haystack discussion, a one straw sample from a 1000 LY haystack -- as thick as the galactic disk -- centred on the sun is overwhelmingly likely to pick up straw. Cf as well the earlier discussion on islands vs continents of function here.kairosfocus
June 3, 2012
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J: I think I had less than the right amount of sleep overnight -- sleep deprivation warning -- and I have to get ready to face the day, but the key point is that incremental adaptations within islands of function amidst vast seas of non-function, do not answer to how one gets from initial arbitrary configs to shorelines of function per chance plus necessity. Every time one objects based on Dawkins' easy back slope up Mt Improbable, s/he is begging the actual issue at stake, to get to shorelines of function for novel body plans, starting with the very first one. That it seems very hard for objectors to design to see this point shows just how deeply we have been led to imagine that function based on complex and specific organisation is to achieve. That is a main reason for what I have written and linked. BTW, in addition, there is a strawman caricature of Paley's case at work. In Ch II, he seriously addressed the self-replicating watch, as a further manifestation of the sort of FSCO/I that points ever so strongly to design. But, I suspect all such pointing out will be inadequate to break through the Darwinist, CV + NS --> DWM without limit, paradigm's belt of defences. So, let me do a version on how I reply to enthusiasts of perpetual motion machines in defence of the core principles of thermodynamics: show us an OBSERVED case of body-plan origin of a living form on CV + NS --> DWM. In particular, compare the origin of the bird's wing and one way flow lung as a capital challenge in reply to how Archaeopteryx was urged on us from 1861 on, as proof of such body plan origin by Darwinian mechanisms. Here is Denton on this case:
[[T]he structure of the lung in birds and the overall functioning of the respiratory system is quite unique. No lung in any other vertebrate species is known which in any way approaches the avian system. Moreover, it is identical in all essential details in birds as diverse as humming birds, ostriches and hawks . . . . Just how such an utterly different respiratory system could have evolved gradually from the standard vertebrate design is fantastically difficult to envisage, especially bearing in mind that the maintenance of respiratory function is absolutely vital to the life of an organism to the extent that the slightest malfunction leads to death within minutes. Just as the feather cannot function as an organ of flight until the hooks and barbules are coadapted to fit together perfectly, so the avian lung cannot function as an organ of respiration until the parabronchi system which permeates it and the air sac system which guarantees the parabronchi their air supply are both highly developed and able to function together in a perfectly integrated manner . . . [[Evolution, a Theory in Crisis, 1985, pp. 210 - 12.]
How did bird lungs, wings and other such come about, per observation, on CV + NS --> DWM? Or, the like? In short, I am asserting a challenge: the proposed macro-evo mechanism has to show itself warranted at body plan level per observation. Otherwise, per Newton's principles of scientific reasoning -- I added overnight [thanks for the stimulation to do so] -- we are fully entitled on our epistemic rights of inductive reasoning to infer from observed FSCO/I to its known, adequate cause: intelligently and purposefully directed configuration, AKA design. Dembski is pointing out that information is not to be had on the cheap, so we must have a causally adequate mechanism. Gross extrapolation from variations within islands of function, will not do. His analysis points to a threshold where FSCO/I reliably points to design as cause, on grounds that the required search will not have enough probabilistic resources to be reasonably likely to succeed on the gamut of the solar system or the observed cosmos. And to then revert to a quasi-infinite multiverse to get around that is first, a resort to metaphysical speculation. In addition, the LOCAL fine tuning of our cosmos for C-chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life is more than enough to warrant inference to design as best explanation in light of the evidence we do have. And if you want to shift to a philosophical discussion, a much broader array of evidence and argument become relevant -- e.g. the fact that millions across climes and ages alike, report life-transforming encounter with God. (To dismiss such as delusional entails a drastic undermining of the confidence in the mind.) Gotta begin getting ready for the day, starting with flushing out sleepiness in a shower. KFkairosfocus
June 3, 2012
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One thing I'm still not quite . . . seeing I guess. Evolutionary theory says that each incrimental step is small, there's no searching of the entire solution space. A variation is thrown up and then tested against the local environmental pressures, natural selection. If it passes it MIGHT get to replicate. It's NOT like finding a watch lying in the woods with no clear precursor or ancestor that can explain where it came from. Living objects don't just appear, fully formed, they come from their 'parents'. They have cousins and a whole extended family. It seems like Dr Dembski's argument is looking at the problem in the same way that Paley did with his watch analogy. IF you found this amazing complicated object just lying around you'd assume it was designed. As would I because it's an inanimate object and there is no way iron and glass and jewels (if it was an expensive watch) could self-arrange into that pattern. Same with Stonehenge. But living things don't just self-arrange out of nothing. They are slowly created in a very long series of trial-and-error steps and we have evidence of some of those steps. It seems to me that the real question of specified complexity should be: is it plausible that a given configuation could have naturally arisen from a previous configuration? Kind of like a mathematical proof by induction. Can you get to the first step? Once you're on any step can you get to the next step? As opposed to looking at a step as if it's hanging, isolated in mid-air and saying: what's the probablility of that? (With evolution clearly the 'can you get to the first step' question is still wide open, I'm not denying that.) I realise that this kind of reasoning IS what Dr Behe is getting at with his issue of irreducibly complexity. But I don't seen that being what Dr Dembski is getting at in his 2005 paper. It seems like he's just trying to deal with Paley's watch numerically. Which doens't work with lifeforms in my mind.Jerad
June 3, 2012
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Chance, Yup, my 'derp' moment. Oh well, it happens. :-)Jerad
June 3, 2012
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Hahaha Jared, I was just about to post something showing the similarity of exponent and log rules. You were handling logarithms just fine, so I figured you were spacing out!Chance Ratcliff
June 2, 2012
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GEM, [2^500]^2 = 2^1000 . . . . DUH! What was I thinking. Guess I needed sleep too! Thanks!!Jerad
June 2, 2012
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GEM, [2^500]^2 = 2^1000 . . . . DUH! What was I thinking. Guess I needed sleep too! Thanks!!Jerad
June 2, 2012
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I see I need to get back to sleep: [2^500]^2 = [3.27*10^150]^2 = 2^1,000 = 1.07*10^301kairosfocus
June 2, 2012
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[2^500]^2 = 3.27*10^150 = 2^1,000 = 1.07*10^301, where the indices are info measures in bits also.kairosfocus
June 2, 2012
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GEM,
1,000 BITS is the square of 500 bits, in terms of space of possibilities specified.
Oh. I don't get that but I'm probably just being stupid. I'll have a think . . .Jerad
June 2, 2012
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