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Insane Scaremongering on a Colossal Scale

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JVL:

If we take the CFR for COVID-19 to be 2% . . . it’s a low estimate . . . in order to exceed Barry‘s limit* of 200,000 deaths in the US there would have to be over 10 million cases in the US. Wikipedia says the 2019 estimated population of the US is about 328 million so that means about 3% of the population would have to be diagnosed. It’s impossible to say, now, of course, but I’d be inclined to think that it’s fairly likely that 3% of the US population will get infected. We’ll see . . . .

JVL says “it’s fairly likely that” around 3% of the US population of 328,000,000 will contract COVID 19, resulting in 10,000,000 cases. (The exact number is 3.0488%.) He also says that of those 10 million cases, the fatality rate (CFR) is likely to be at least 2%, resulting in over 200,000 deaths.

This is insane scaremongering on a grand scale.

And it is easy to demonstrate this. Right now, as I write this, China (population 1.386 BILLION) has had a total of 81,054 cases. See here. 72,440 of those have recovered. There are 5,353 active cases. 1,845 of those are “serious.” There have been 3,261 deaths.

Deaths per day in China peaked at 150 on February 23. On March 21, there were 6 deaths. New cases peaked at 14,108 on February 12. On March 21 there were 46.

Significantly, there have been ZERO new cases reported in Wuhan for the 4th day in a row.

Inescapable conclusion. The epidemic has nearly run its course in China.

Let’s do a little simple math. Total deaths in a country with a population of 1.386 BILLION will almost certainly be under 10,000, perhaps under 5,000. Total cases will probably be less than 100,000.

Why in the world would anyone believe that total deaths in a county with a population of 328 million will approach 200,000? For that to happen, there would have to be over 20 times the deaths in a population that is one-fourth the size.

Why in the world would anyone believe that total cases in a county with a population of 328 million will approach 10 million? For that to happen, there would have to be 100 times the cases in a population that is one-fourth the size.

________________

*I don’t know what JVL means by Barry’s limit of 200,000 deaths. Jim Thibodeau believes there will be over 200,000 deaths, not I. I believe there will be a fraction (probably a very tiny fraction) of 60,000 deaths, in other words, far fewer than the deaths caused by the flu last year.

Comments
Latemarch, You may be right, and my confidence in the WHO to do basic diligence may be (probably is) misplaced.Barry Arrington
March 24, 2020
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Sev, Your hatred* is causing you to do hateful things. Take stock. Do better. ___________ *And don't try to tell me that your antics that got called out above stemmed from anything other than Trump Derangement Syndrome, a species of hatred.Barry Arrington
March 24, 2020
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ET Someone ingests anything you buy from a fish store was never intended to live long., I’m surprised the person made it to 60. Vividvividbleau
March 24, 2020
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The person who took aquarium chloroquine and died, counts as a Darwin Award.ET
March 24, 2020
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Barry “You appear to be alluding to the guy who self medicated from his fish tank and implying that is some sort of exemplar by which to judge the efficacy and safety of the drug.” Barry are you saying that I need to stop snorting hand sanitizer? Vividvividbleau
March 24, 2020
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BA, Back in my uni days, we could tell when 1st year Med students had their first pharmacology lecture. They were sobered by the prof's warning: drugs are poisons in small doses. (Then, there was that first anatomy lab . . .) I think this is background -- and BTW, it means there should not be a shortage here, which was another complaint:
https://reefs.com/magazine/aquarium-fish-chloroquine-a-new-drug-for-treating-fish-diseases/ In early the 1970’s, when I was just 13 or so, Cryptocaryon irritans (“marine ich”) and Amyloodinium ocellatum (“marine velvet”) were a bit less of a problem for my fish than they are now when I quarantine new fish as an aquarium curator. The reason was a product called Marex from the Aquatronics Corporation (they have long ceased operations). Marex was sort of a wonder drug for us back then – simply adding a single $1.99 dose protected the fish in a 50 gallon aquarium from many diseases plus it killed the unsightly algae that grew all over the tank decorations back in those days! When the company went out of business I moved on to using other products. For the past 25 years, I’ve been using ionic copper measured with a spectrophotometer twice a day to control marine ich and other protozoan diseases. Copper is slow to affect a cure, and the difference between a therapeutic dose and a dose harmful to some fish species is slight. Still, it seemed to be the best method for quarantining or treating active diseases in fish. Thinking back to when I was a youngster, I did some research and discovered that the active ingredient in Marex was chloroquine, and I was familiar with that drug as it was being used by other public aquariums. Acquiring some myself five years ago, I’ve begun incorporating it into my arsenal of aquarium fish disease treatments. A few home aquarists have begun re-exploring its uses as well, often calling it by the shorthand name of “CP” which stands for chloroquine phosphate. This article provides those aquarists with additional background information to enable them to be better able to use this “new” drug if they wish – having options is always a good . . . . Chloroquine was developed for human medicine in the 1930’s at Bayer laboratories. It was first thought to be too toxic for any practical use, but decades later, it was shown in clinical trials to have significant value as an anti-malarial drug. However, its subsequent wide-spread use allowed the malaria disease organism to become resistant to it, requiring the development of other treatments . . . .
This of course underscores the point on drug toxicity, and on how careful one must be with any medication. There is no reasonable connexion between highlighting a hopeful treatment for a pandemic using a substance common enough and cheap enough that it is used to treat aquariums and someone foolishly ignoring common sense about diagnosing and treating serious illnesses. That some . . . including some in the media . . . draw or suggest the connexion by invidious association speaks saddening volumes. What is warranted, is that we need to have a sober minded discussion about health, disease, treatment and more. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2020
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Barry, 21 Million Chinese Cellphone Users Disappear in Three Months of Pandemic Things may not be what they seem in China.Latemarch
March 24, 2020
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Sev,
We already have one death attributable to incautious speculation about the efficacy of chloroquine as a therapeutic agent.
You appear to be alluding to the guy who self medicated from his fish tank and implying that is some sort of exemplar by which to judge the efficacy and safety of the drug. Tell me I am wrong. If you can't, one wonders if you can you sink any lower? Readers: See here for the story to which Sev alluded.Barry Arrington
March 24, 2020
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Sev, I suggest, that there are more than enough expertise and credible fact on the table as pointed out. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2020
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F/N: Since we wish to hear experts:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32164085 Zhonghua Jie He He Hu Xi Za Zhi. 2020 Mar 12;43(3):185-188. doi: 10.3760/cma.j.issn.1001-0939.2020.03.009. [Expert consensus on chloroquine phosphate for the treatment of novel coronavirus pneumonia]. [Article in Chinese; Abstract available in Chinese from the publisher] multicenter collaboration group of Department of Science and Technology of Guangdong Province and Health Commission of Guangdong Province for chloroquine in the treatment of novel coronavirus pneumonia. Abstractin English, Chinese At the end of December 2019, a novel coronavirus (COVID-19) caused an outbreak in Wuhan, and has quickly spread to all provinces in China and 26 other countries around the world, leading to a serious situation for epidemic prevention. So far, there is still no specific medicine. Previous studies have shown that chloroquine phosphate (chloroquine) had a wide range of antiviral effects, including anti-coronavirus. Here we found that treating the patients diagnosed as novel coronavirus pneumonia with chloroquine might improve the success rate of treatment, shorten hospital stay and improve patient outcome. In order to guide and regulate the use of chloroquine in patients with novel coronavirus pneumonia, the multicenter collaboration group of Department of Science and Technology of Guangdong Province and Health Commission of Guangdong Province for chloroquine in the treatment of novel coronavirus pneumonia developed this expert consensus after extensive discussion. It recommended chloroquine phosphate tablet, 500mg twice per day for 10 days for patients diagnosed as mild, moderate and severe cases of novel coronavirus pneumonia and without contraindications to chloroquine.
KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2020
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We also need to ask some pointed questions about how much influence medically-unqualified politicians have over what should and should not be made available to the general population without adequate testing. We already have one death attributable to incautious speculation about the efficacy of chloroquine as a therapeutic agent. We don't need any more.Seversky
March 24, 2020
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F/N: US FDA again, on early stage "compassionate use" approval:
https://www.pharmacytimes.com/news/fda-announces-two-drugs-approved-for-compassionate-use-in-treating-covid-19 Pharmacy Times FDA Announces Two Drugs Given ‘Compassionate Use’ Status in Treating COVID-19 2020-03-19 17:40:00 Kristen Coppock, MA, Managing Editor Two drugs, chloroquine and remdesivir, are being designated for Expanded Access, or “compassionate use,” by the FDA to address the novel coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic, according to FDA Commissioner Stephen Hahn, MD, and President Donald Trump.1 Chloroquine and remdesivir are not FDA-approved for a COVID-19 indications, but Expanded Access allows patients with serious or life-threatening cases of the virus to have access to them as investigational medicinal products.2 Chloroquine, or hydroxychloroquine, is currently approved by the FDA for treatment of malaria, lupus, and rheumatoid arthritis, although not for COVID-19. A heme polymerase inhibitor, the drug is being tested for possible COVID-19 use to improve virologic clearance.3 Remdesivir is an investigational nucleotide analog with broad-spectrum antiviral activity, according to its maker, Gilead Sciences, and it is not approved by the FDA nor any other countries for any use. However, remdesivir has demonstrated activity against MERS and SARS, indicating that it may have potential activity against COVID-19. The drug has been used in a small number of patients with COVID-19 in an experimental manner, according to Gilead.4 During a White House press conference on Thursday, Hahn said that although remdesivir is still in its investigational phase, the unprecedented pandemic warranted action. “Remdesivir is [still] going through the normal process. We do need to know about the safety and effectiveness,” he said.1 According to Hahn, the FDA is providing regulatory flexibility and guidance, but is also continuing to ensure products are safe. He said the agency has been working with the CDC since January on combating the virus.1 “An important part of that work is expanding therapeutic options for the coronavirus,” Hahn said.1 Trump said these medications will be made available by prescription. Hahn declined to say when both drugs would become available for use in patients with COVID-19.1 For up-to-date information on COVID-19 for pharmacy professionals, visit Pharmacy Times' coronavirus resource center. REFERENCES Coronavirus Task Force. White House Press Conference. Presented: March 19, 2020. Accessed March 19, 2020. FDA. Expanded Access. FDA website. https://www.fda.gov/news-events/public-health-focus/expanded-access Updated May 6, 2019. Accessed March 19, 2020. Bulloch M. Potential Pipeline Medications May Help Patients with Novel Coronavirus. Pharmacy Times. https://www.pharmacytimes.com/news/potential-pipeline-medications-for-the-coronavirus Published March 11, 2020. Accessed March 19, 2020. Gilead Sciences. Gilead Sciences Update On the Company’s Ongoing Response to COVID-19. Gilead Sciences website. https://www.gilead.com/purpose/advancing-global-health/covid-19 Updated February 26, 2020. Accessed March 20, 2020.
Notice the date, March 19th, in the USA. As in, Thursday last. We need to ask some pointed questions regarding news coverage and slanting. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2020
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F/N: An English language report on the French trials:
https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/French-researcher-in-Marseille-posts-successful-Covid-19-coronavirus-drug-trial-results The Connexion 24 march 2020 A renowned research professor in France has reported successful results from a new treatment for Covid-19, with early tests suggesting it can stop the virus from being contagious in just six days. Professor Didier Raoult from infection hospital l'Institut Hospitalo-Universitaire (IHU) Méditerranée Infection in Marseille (Bouches-du-Rhône, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur), published a video explaining the trials on Monday March 16. Professor Raoult is an infectious diseases specialist and head of the IHU Méditerranée Infection, who has been tasked by - and consulted by - the French government to research possible treatments of Covid-19. He said that the first Covid-19 patients he had treated with the drug chloroquine had seen a rapid and effective speeding up of their healing process, and a sharp decrease in the amount of time they remained contagious. Chloroquine - which is normally used mainly to prevent and treat malaria - was administered via the named drug, Plaquenil. The treatment was offered to 24 patients, who were among the first to become infected in the south east of France, and who had voluntarily admitted themselves to hospital for the process. Patients were given 600mcg per day for 10 days. They were closely monitored, as the drug can interact with other medication, and cause severe side effects in some cases. Professor Raoult said: “We included everyone who was in agreement [to be treated], which was almost everyone. Two towns in the protocol, Nice and Avignon, gave us [infected] patients who had not yet received treatment. “We were able to ascertain that patients who had not received Plaquenil (the drug containing hydroxychloroquine) were still contagious after six days, but of those that had received Plaquenil, after six days, only 25% were still contagious.” Chloroquine phosphate and hydroxychloroquine have previously been used to treat coronavirus patients in China, in ongoing Covid-19 clinical trials. Kaletra, a US-based antiviral drug normally used to treat HIV, is another medicine that is being tested in the fight against Covid-19. US academic study concurs A new academic study, published on Friday March 13 by US scientific researchers, also said that chloroquine appeared to be an effective treatment, and appears to align with the findings in France. It said: “Use of chloroquine (tablets) is showing favorable outcomes in humans infected with Coronavirus including faster time to recovery and shorter hospital stay… “Research shows that chloroquine also has strong potential as a prophylactic (preventative) measure against coronavirus in the lab, while we wait for a vaccine to be developed. “Chloroquine is an inexpensive, globally available drug that has been in widespread human use since 1945 against malaria, autoimmune and various other conditions…[it] can be prescribed to adults and children of all ages. "It can also be safely taken by pregnant women and nursing mothers [and] has been widely used to treat human diseases, such as malaria, amoebiosis, HIV, and autoimmune diseases, without significant detrimental side effects.” Researchers worldwide are continuing to work on developing a vaccine against Covid-19. So far, no country - nor the World Health Organisation (WHO) - has officially published treatment measures against Covid-19, but in China and South Korea, guidelines already outline the use of chloroquine as an “effective treatment”, the study report said.
Not exactly shilling for snake oil. (Maybe we need to remember that French researchers were co-discoverers of the HIV virus.)kairosfocus
March 24, 2020
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How often do we see that word, BREAKTHROUGH in journal article titles?kairosfocus
March 24, 2020
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PPPS: A March 16 report from China:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32074550 Biosci Trends. 2020 Mar 16;14(1):72-73. doi: 10.5582/bst.2020.01047. Epub 2020 Feb 19. Breakthrough: Chloroquine phosphate has shown apparent efficacy in treatment of COVID-19 associated pneumonia in clinical studies. Gao J1, Tian Z2, Yang X2. Author information Abstract The coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) virus is spreading rapidly, and scientists are endeavoring to discover drugs for its efficacious treatment in China. Chloroquine phosphate, an old drug for treatment of malaria, is shown to have apparent efficacy and acceptable safety against COVID-19 associated pneumonia in multicenter clinical trials conducted in China. The drug is recommended to be included in the next version of the Guidelines for the Prevention, Diagnosis, and Treatment of Pneumonia Caused by COVID-19 issued by the National Health Commission of the People's Republic of China for treatment of COVID-19 infection in larger populations in the future.
kairosfocus
March 24, 2020
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PS: Basic rule of argument, following Ari in The Rhetoric Bk I Ch 2. Three basic appeals, to emotions, to authority/credibility, to facts & logic. Emotions are no better than underlying perceptions and judgement. No authority is better than his/her facts, reasoning and framework of assumptions. It is balance on the merits of facts and reasoning with due attention to frameworks of assumptions that counts. In the just linked, the first source is a leading French Expert, whose findings are all over the French language internet. Similar studies are there in Australia and China. PPS: Here is FDA on Chloroquinone:
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-continues-facilitate-development-treatments Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update: FDA Continues to Facilitate Development of Treatments Share Tweet Linkedin Email Print For Immediate Release: March 19, 2020 . . . The FDA has been working closely with other government agencies and academic centers that are investigating the use of the drug chloroquine, which is already approved for treating malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, to determine whether it can be used to treat patients with mild-to-moderate COVID-19 to potentially reduce the duration of symptoms, as well as viral shedding, which can help prevent the spread of disease. Studies are underway to determine the efficacy in using chloroquine to treat COVID-19. “President Trump’s aggressive response and bold actions to keep Americans safe from COVID-19 bought us precious time to advance therapeutics and other necessary tools,” said HHS Secretary Alex Azar. “Today’s actions show that HHS and the United States are leading the world in these efforts. Disseminating information about promising off-label uses of drugs we already have, investigating their effectiveness, and pursuing other therapeutics will help give American healthcare providers the tools they need to save lives. As we have always seen when America has faced a serious threat, American industry, academic institutions and government are coming together to deliver us what we need to win.” The FDA wants to assure the American public that the agency continues to work with partners across the U.S. government and regulated industry to expedite the development and availability of critical medical products to prevent and treat this novel virus, including repurposing existing therapies that may help treat patients with COVID-19. “As is true for most medical situations, the great American innovators in academia and industry have engaged with us about treatment options. We are extremely encouraged by the interest and promise in the development of the COVID-19-related therapies. We understand and recognize the urgency with which we are all seeking prevention and treatment options for COVID-19. FDA staff are working expeditiously on that front” said FDA Commissioner Stephen Hahn, M.D. “We also must ensure these products are effective; otherwise we risk treating patients with a product that might not work when they could have pursued other, more appropriate, treatments. At the same time, we will engage with domestic manufacturers to ramp up production of this product to mitigate any potential supply chain pressures. If clinical data suggests this product may be promising in treating COVID-19, we know there will be increased demand for it. We will take all steps to ensure chloroquine remains available for patients who take it to treat severe and life-threatening illnesses such as lupus.”
Not, this is snake oil. But at the same time, "promising" would seem to be the indication already, given existing, recent and longstanding results. Including, a context where antivirals and potential antivirals should have been seriously investigated post-SARS. Hence, my earlier comments.kairosfocus
March 24, 2020
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JT, who do you think carried out the peer reviewed published studies recently and 15 years ago? Duppies? I suggest you read here before replying, including looking at the linked papers: https://uncommondescent.com/ud-newswatch-highlights/breaking-is-the-1934-bayer-anti-malarial-chloroquine-a-potential-covid-19-breakthrough-treatment/ KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2020
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Alexa ranks EN:………..224,082…..1%……/Evolution News [TO, UD] TO:………443,404….1%……/Talk Origins [EN] UD:………563,470…..1%……/Uncommon Descent [EN, TSZ] SW:………765,523…..1%……/SandWalk Dr L. Moran [UD] PT:…….2,995,644…..3%……/Panda’s Thumb [UD] TSZ:….5,435,611….6%……/The Skeptical Zone [UD, PS] PS:…. [still off radar]……/Peaceful Science [TSZ] Shown in [] is the list of other websites of this list that are somehow related to the given website according to Alexa stats The % are based on the top 100M active websites Alexa links: .....................EN...................TO..................UD...............SW..............PT................TSZ..................PS EN:……….....X.....................X.......................X................................................................................................. TO:……….....X.....................X........................................................................................................................... UD:……….....X...............................................X...................................................................X.......................... SW:……….......................................................X.....................X....................................................................... PT:…….............................................................X.........................................X................................................... TSZ:…..............................................................X..................................................................X......................X PS:….......................................................................................................................................X......................X .....................EN...................TO..................UD...............SW..............PT................TSZ..................PS I don't understand how Alexa website relations are determined. It's probably obvious, but I don't see it. The sudden rank ups/downs are also intriguing. SW and TSZ had that situation recently.jawa
March 24, 2020
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Can we please have the edit function back? I did the math wrong. 4.3%ET
March 24, 2020
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According to Johns Hopkins covid 19 has a 22% + death rate: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/ 17,240 deaths out of 395,647 known cases. However, we really do NOT know the denominator so that 22% is bound to be lower.ET
March 24, 2020
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Jim Thibodeau @19: Did you miss the posts @34, 35 & 65? :) PS. Note t hat this is a reminder for the anonymous readers of this thread.jawa
March 24, 2020
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Truthfreedom @76, Thank you for the information. My tremendous cultural ignorance was revealed again: I don't recall ever hearing about that guy before I opened your link. :)jawa
March 24, 2020
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@ Jim Thibodeau, thanks for your no-contributions. :)Truthfreedom
March 24, 2020
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I’m going to take some time away from this site. I will be checking in with Johns Hopkins’ coronavirus figures, and unfortunately they’re doing what I expect them to do.Jim Thibodeau
March 24, 2020
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And Dean Baker’s idea would by definition not be socialist, because it would be licensing the drugs out to private industry, which of course doesn’t exist in a socialist government. If you’re going to lie about what I believe, at least come up with some internally consistent lies.Jim Thibodeau
March 24, 2020
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Barry, you really need to stop putting erroneous words in my mouth. It doesn’t make your case look good.Jim Thibodeau
March 24, 2020
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@85 Axel: Reverse-engineering for dummies. Gotta love it :) According to darwinists, scientists are stupid. :)Truthfreedom
March 24, 2020
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Jim
what would work better would be if the government funded all drug research
So Jim is a socialist too. I'm stunned. Not only is he enthralled by the "experts," he thinks "more government bureaucracy" is the answer to every important policy question. Because everyone knows the government always does it better. That is why the post office is the envy of the world. God help us.Barry Arrington
March 24, 2020
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Jim Thibodeau
So you’re not even considering the possibility that medical experts and scientists in this field may know things that you don’t.
The willingness, nay eagerness, of materialists to snap to attention and salute every single diktat of the experts never ceases to amaze. "The experts have spoken" they are constantly howling. "We must submit to their sublime, godlike understanding." Never mind that, as has already been pointed out, experts on healthcare once endorsed smoking. Never mind that experts on public health policy once endorsed eugenics. Never mind . . . actually I will stop there, because the list is endless. Go ahead Jim. Keep on doing your best lemming impression. The rest of us will think for ourselves.Barry Arrington
March 24, 2020
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Among its myriad polymath abilities, I'm sure it is just as polyglot as is necessary to answer our questions intelligibly.... let me re-phrase that.... ummmh...Axel
March 24, 2020
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