Integrated complexity, instantiated to achieve a specific function is always caused and implemented by an intelligent mind
Complexity, in special when implemented to achieve a specific purpose, has always only been observed to be the product of a mind. The more complex, the more evidence of design. In ID, complexity is more defined, when we talk about specified, and irreducible complexity. We see it in every living cell, combined. DNA hosts specified complexity, or in words, that can be better comprehended, instructional assembly information. EVERY protein, which is the product of the information stored in DNA, is irreducibly complex. In order to perform its basic function, it must have a minimal size. Unless it has it, no deal, no function. On top of that, proteins are synthesized by the ribosome, depending on the specified complexity of the information stored in DNA. So on top of irreducible complexity, there is an interdependence of specified, and irreducible complexity combined.
Specified complexity of information stored in DNA, dictates and directs the making of irreducible complex proteins, which all are made to perform a specific function in the cell. On top of that irreducible complexity, there are higher and higher layers of specified, and irreducible complexity. Signaling is essential in every cell, even in single cells, and protists, and was necessary for the first life form to emerge, no matter, what it was. Signals are carriers of information, that are also specified and complex. There has to be always a variegated number of signaling networks in operation, or no life. And there has to be a minimal number of proteins, for life to exist, or no deal. So, proteins are individually irreducible complex, and the cell and its proteome are irreducibly complex because a minimal number of proteins is required for life to exist.
Living cells are prime examples of irreducible and specified complexity, instantiated to perform a specific function. In order for there to be life, a minimal number of parts has to be there, fully implemented, and operational. All at once.
Graham Cairns-Smith:
We are all descended from some ancient organisms or group of organisms within which much of the machinery now found in all forms of life on Earth was already essentially fixed and, as part of that, hooked on today’s so-called ‘molecules of life’. This machinery is enormously sophisticated, depending for its operation on many collaborating parts. The multiple collaboration provides an explanation for why the present system is so frozen now and has been for so long. So we are left wondering how the whole DNA/RNA/protein control system, on which evolution now so utterly depends, could itself have evolved. We can see that at the time of the common ancestor, this system must already have been fixed in its essentials, probably through a critical interdependence of subsystems. (Roughly speaking in a domain in which everything has come to depend on everything else nothing can be easily changed, and our central biochemistry is very much like that.
Albert-László Barabási:
Various types of interaction webs, or networks, (including protein-protein interaction, metabolic, signaling and transcription-regulatory networks) emerge from the sum of these interactions. None of these networks are independent, instead, they form a ‘network of networks that is responsible for the behavior of the cell. the architectural features of molecular interaction networks within a cell are shared to a large degree by other complex systems, such as the Internet, computer chips, and society.
Wilhelm Huck chemist , professor at Radboud University Nijmegen
A working cell is more than the sum of its parts. “A functioning cell must be entirely correct at once, in all its complexity
I became acquainted with the ID arguments about 10 years ago, and I am still in awe of their power. As far as I know, no one has been able to make a serious argument against them.
No, we are no descendants of some ancient organisms or a group of organisms. Ditch evolution entirely, enough with the nonsense, something else is going on.
So the biology student asks the professor, “since we no longer believe in evolution, how do we get such a diversity of life?” The professor answers, “something else.” The student replies, “awesome.”
Remember, it will be on the final. Class dismissed….
Origines
serious argument against ID ? :))))
In last 10 years it got only worse for Darwinists … way worse …
But let me speak about creationism.
People like Seversky, Chuck and Co. sometimes forget, that creationism HAS NOT BEEN debunked yet – because it has not been demonstrated, that life can emerge spontaneously … Actually, it has not been demonstrated, that even the simplest building blogs of life can emerge spontaneously …
What has been demonstrated, is, that it is extremely problematic to run even the simplest OoL-experiments without cheating …
So I don’t understand, why creationists are the stupid ones …
Otangelo, there are many ways to make the same basic point, which is a massively supported fact. Functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information [FSCO/I for short], per observation and the fine tuning, islands of function pattern implicit in coordination of correct, matched, properly oriented, arranged and coupled parts, is only observed to come from intelligently directed configuration. On literally trillions of cases, including objecting comments made up of coherent text in English, etc. Same for the computers, phones, pens or pencils used to draft those objections. Same for the glasses worn by objectors and the clothes they wear, furniture, vehicles, houses etc they use, or the refineries that make the gas in their car tanks. Nor do we exhaust the possibility of such intelligent directors. The needle in haystack search challenge is readily seen from Orgel’s description length [an expression of Kolmogorov-Chaitin complexity] or Wicken’s wiring diagram. Yes, FSCO/I was identified by OoL researchers in the 70’s, before a modern ID research programme emerged, and was a contributory factor, so much for a slanderous conspiracy theory courts have fallen for. Objectors have no answer to such facts but are full of hyperskeptical dismissiveness. This is because the world of life is full of such FSCO/I and the physics of the cosmos shows similar features. KF
Chuckdarwin @
I suggest that biologists limit themselves to explaining how complex systems work. That will keep them busy for a while.
Kairosfocus@
Can you provide an overview of the best arguments against ID?
Has anyone been able to formulate a counter-argument that has kept you up at night?
Martin_r @
James Tour says that there is no known pathway to the building blocks of the building blocks of life.
As to this claim, “We are all descended from some ancient organisms or group of organisms within which much of the machinery now found in all forms of life on Earth was already essentially fixed and, as part of that, hooked on today’s so-called ‘molecules of life’,,,”
Well, actually, that claim that the machinery in life was ‘essentially fixed’ is now shown to be a false claim,
As well, the fossil record itself is very antagonistic to the Darwinian claim of universal common decent,
Moreover, Darwinists simply have no empirical evidence that it is even possible to gradually change the basic ‘biological form’ of an organism into a brand new ‘biological form’.
As Jonathan Wells states in the following article, “Studies using saturation mutagenesis in the embryos of fruit flies, roundworms, zebrafish and mice also provide evidence against the idea that DNA specifies the basic form of an organism. Biologists can mutate (and indeed have mutated) a fruit fly embryo in every possible way, and they have invariably observed only three possible outcomes: a normal fruit fly, a defective fruit fly, or a dead fruit fly.”
In fact, Darwinists don’t even have a working scientific theory as to how biological form may be generated. As the following article noted, “Embryonic development, which inspired the first theories of biological form, was eventually excluded from the conceptual framework of the Modern Synthesis, (neo-Darwinism) as irrelevant.,,,
At present, the problem of biological form remains unsolved.”
In spite of the fact that they have no evidence that it is, by mutating DNA, even possible to change the basic ‘biological form’ of a organism into a brand new ‘biological form’, (nor do they even have a working scientific theory as to how ‘biological form’ may be generated in the first place), Darwinists still presuppose that, “We are all descended from some ancient organisms or group of organisms,,,”
To try to support that claim, many times Darwinists will claim that genetic comparisons of DNA sequences between different organisms prove this claim. Yet, as is usual with many Darwinian claims, this claim is found to be false. As Richard Bugs stated, “Dawkins’ statements are simply wrong. Gloriously and utterly wrong.”
In fact, “In 1965 one of the most important scientists of the last century, Linus Pauling, and biologist Emil Zuckerkandl,,, suggested a way that macroevolution could be tested and proved: If the comparison of anatomical and DNA sequences led to the same family tree of organisms, this would be strong evidence for macroevolution.7 According to them, only evolution would explain the convergence of these two independent chains of evidence. By implication, the opposite finding would count against macroevolution.“
So what were the results? Over the past twenty-eight years, experimental evidence has revealed that family trees based on anatomical features contradict family trees based on molecular similarities, and at many points. They do not converge.”
And this falsification of Darwinian expectations, (i.e. expectations for how the genetic evidence should line up in a tree like pattern), as Winston Ewert has now shown, has been a ‘hard falsification’ of Darwinian expectations.
As Cornelius Hunter explained, the intelligent design model falsified the Darwinist’s common descent model by 10,064, 40,967 and 515,450 bits respectfully, and this is where 6.6 bits is considered to provide “decisive” evidence for a model.
Moreover, although the genetic evidence is, to put it mildly, ‘uncooperative’ with Darwinian expectations, it gets worse for Darwinists.
It turns out that the ‘operating systems’ that control gene expression are ‘species specific’.
As the following paper states, “most alternative splicing events differ widely between even closely related species. “The alternative splicing patterns are very different even between humans and chimpanzees,”
In fact, due to alternative splicing, “Alternatively spliced isoforms,,, appear to behave as if encoded by distinct genes rather than as minor variants of each other.,,,” and “As many as 100,000 distinct isoform transcripts could be produced from the 20,000 human protein-coding genes (Pan et al., 2008), collectively leading to perhaps over a million distinct polypeptides obtained by post-translational modification of products of all possible transcript isoforms,,”
This finding of “perhaps a million distinct polypeptides obtained by post-translational modification”
is simply completely devastating to the ‘bottom up’ reductive materialistic explanations of Darwinists and represents yet another ‘hard falsification’ of Darwinian expectations, and, on the other hand, this finding of ‘species specific’ operating systems are very comforting to the Christian’s contention that God created all the diversity of life on earth, as well as creating man, ‘according to their kind’.
As Stephen Meyer himself noted, “the non-coding regions of the genome function much like an operating system in a computer by regulating the timing and expression of the information stored in the “data files” or coding regions of the genome. Significantly, it has become increasingly clear that the non-coding regions, the crucial operating systems in effect, of the chimp and human genomes are species specific. That is, they are strikingly different in the two species. Yet, if alleged genetic similarity suggests common ancestry, then, by the same logic, this new evidence of significant genetic disparity suggests independent separate origins. For this reason, I see nothing from a genetic point of view that challenges the idea that humans originated independently from primates,”
Thus in conclusion, the Darwinian belief in universal common descent is contradicted by the empirical evidence itself, and is contradicted by the empirical evidence on many different levels.
Verse:
Origenes, after about fifteen years, I have found no cogent objections, in the context of inference to the best explanation. If there were a truly solid argument on observation that FSCO/I beyond 500 – 1,000 bits can be and is routinely produced by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, I would have long since accepted that. What I have consistently seen is an entrenched orthodoxy and a question begging lockout. Years ago cases such as pendulum to clock were put up but all failed, and the evolutionary algorithms load in active, designer supplied information inadequate to find fine tuned islands of function rather than hill climb within such islands. The recent push of emergentism still fails to escape the poof magic something from nothing problem, it is a disguised concession on the substance designed to shore up a failed orthodoxy. KF
Kairosfocus @10
One advantage of a naturalistic ‘explanation’ seems to be that, as opposed to intelligence, matter is a tangible understandable thing—setting aside the profound enigmas of quantum mechanics, and the apparent fine-tuning of the universe, for a moment. We do not understand how intelligence interacts with the world. We do not even understand how we produce our posts on this forum …
Then again, the existence of intelligence is a brute fact for all of us, and several arguments convincingly show that intelligence cannot be reduced to blind particles in the void.
Mechanical necessity, a totally determined universe that produces life, would not even be an argument against ID, because such a universe would be front-loaded with information. As an aside, the concept is self-defeating. Such a universe would imply that all our thoughts are also determined by something beyond our control, which would mean that we are not rational.
It is clear to most, including naturalists, that matter is not aimed at producing life (or rationality). Therefore the most trodden pathway is ‘blind chance’. Here the ID arguments operate very convincingly. For instance, Dembski absolutely destroys Dawkins.
I agree. Perhaps the idea that consciousness emerges out of FSCO/I makes intuitive sense to some, but no one seriously considers that FSCO/I itself, let’s say a watch, somehow emerges ‘naturalistically’ without the input of work by an intelligence.
Ontangelo @
Is it the case that for every protein goes that “the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning”? My question is based on Behe’s definition of ‘irreducibly complex’:
Origenes @5
This is a very bad idea … a biologist — natural science graduate — is not qualified for this …. Remember all those bad design claims and/or vestigial organs claims ?
Origenes, that depends on our understanding of explanation. Once agency is accepted as our first fact, and we recognise that we have freedom [within broad limits], then agent action is a reasonable explanation for our posts and many other things. We choose to write using our knowledge. How mind and matter interface is likely quantum influence and I have pointed to the Smith, two tier controller cybernetic loop as a first point. KF
PS, blind chance and/or mechanical necessity opens up dynamic-stochastic models.
Martin_r/3
It’s hard to debunk something undefined. What exactly do you mean by “creationism?” Young earth? Old earth? Special vs. general creation? Instantaneous vs. gradual? Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Taoist?
The same with terms like “complexity.” It is a completely relative term. To a lay person, the inside of a Swiss movement watch looks incomprehensibly complex, to a watch maker it is simple. But given time and study, the lay person can learn what the parts are and how they work, rather than throwing their arms up and whining “irreducible complexity.”
In the early 20th century we didn’t even know DNA existed. In 1953, the chemical composition and structure of DNA was described (by biologists, not engineers). Fifty years later, in 2003 the entire human genome had been mapped (by biologists, not engineers), an astonishing accomplishment. No resort to creationism or “intelligent design” was necessary, just basic research. What Kuhn called “normal science.”
Neither “creationism” nor “intelligent design” has contributed one whit to the basic sciences……….
CD, you could easily confirm that since Orgel, description length in a compact description language has been a useful metric of complexity, reducible to bits. That is, we point to Kolmogorov-Chaitin. KF
For note:
The popular evolutionary arguments are systematically laid out and debunked in this book:
R. Marks, W.Dembski, W.Ewert: Introduction to Evolutionary Informatics
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-Evolutionary-Informatics-Robert-Marks/dp/9813142146
What is particularly useful is that it is written by engineers, not by biologists or mathematicians. It is engineers whose job it is to create complex things, often from scratch, and make them work in practice. It is worth listening to what the authors have to say about the insurmountable challenges unguided evolution is facing in the real world.
CD @15
Also, no resort to naturalism was necessary. Indeed, excellent “normal” scientific work; just discover what is there and try to understand how it works. Again, I suggest not engaging in nonsensical naturalistic speculations about origins.
EugeneS @17
Nice quote from “Introduction to Evolutionary Informatics”, R. Marks, W.Dembski, W.Ewert :
CD
it is not hard …
The main concept is pretty simple.
Creationism is from Creation.
Creation of life.
You guys have to demonstrate, that life was not CREATED.
So simple it is.
So far you failed big way.
Of course, you never will debunk creation, because your OoL-guys use GOLD ALCHEMISTS methods to re-create the most sophisticated technology on this planet :)))))))))))))))
CD,
Look at this picture …
https://www.pmi.org/kasimage/a9072463-a134-4fa4-9255-a06bf93b128f/1.jpg
Do you see all those big boxes, LCD screens, cables, pipes, etc etc ?
These are called DNA sequencers …
Are you saying, that the sequencers were designed by biologists ?
According to wiki, the inventor of the first DNA sequencer was Lloyd M. Smith, a biochemist…..
“the chemical composition and structure of DNA was described (by biologists, not engineers).”
So biologists, not engineers, designed and built the X-ray camera that allowed biologists to see what DNA actually looked like?
As the late Philip Sell noted, “From my conversations with leading researchers it had became clear that modern experimental biology gains its strength from the availability of new instruments and methodologies, not from an immersion in historical biology.,,,”
Moreover, just looking at DNA gives the overwhelming impression that DNA is designed. And certainly does not invoke the response of “Golly gee whiz, DNA must have evolved by mindless processes.”
Cross section of DNA compared to Rose window
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/426082814728642758/
Just ask Francis Crick.
CD,
I don’t understand, why any watchmaker on this planet would say, that Swiss watches are simple (not complex) ….
PS: I love how you people who never made anything talk about complexity. That complexity is not a problem :)))) “so what if something is very complex” … “it means nothing” and so on …. :)))))
It is funny to hear such claims from people who never made anything …
Martin_r/13
There are still plenty of examples of what would be poor design or engineering in living organisms if they had been designed but which are to be expected from a haphazard and Heath Robinson process like evolution.
As for vestigial structures, try the Wikipedia article on Vestigiality as a starting-point.
CD@ 22
An Inventor or a designer ?
Seversky @25
with you, it is really a time waste. You will never learn your lesson …
# 12 Origenes
there is a threshold for a minimum size of a protein. If you go lower, no function. But its not only the size. For example, in the peptidyl transferase Center of the ribosome, there is a special ribosomal RNA, the A2451. It is crucial and has to be in the right place. Remove it, and the ribosome cannot perform bond formation.
Interactions between active site residues and the 2?-OH are pivotal in orienting substrates in the active site for optimal catalysis. A second 2?-OH group was identified to be crucial for peptide bond formation, namely that of A2451. The 2?- OH of A2451 was shown to be of potential functional importance.
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1661-translation-through-ribosomes-amazing-nano-machines#2578
That is just one monomer amongst almost 3000 rRNAs that make up the RTC, which is just one among at least 50 functional parts of a minimal ribosome. The ribosome is life essential. So its origin is an origin of life problem.
Martin_r/20
If it’s so simple then you should be able to tell us exactly how it was done and who did it
After all, engineers like to have everything precisely specified and measured out to the nth degree, don’t they? Wouldn’t want any nasty surprises popping up further down the line, would we?
So explain exactly how this Creation was done. Because if you can’t then “creation” is no better than “emergence”, it’s just a placeholder for something where you have no idea how it happened at all.
Nope. Burden of proof. You say it was created, show us your evidence.
There’s nothing to debunk. You guys say it was all created but you have no idea how so it was just “poofed” into existence?
You keep repeating the same irrelevant questions over and over …
HOW DOES IT MATTER WHETHER WE KNOW HOW EXACTLY IT WAS CREATED ?
If I would know, I would be a billionaire and get 10 Nobel prices.
It is like asking you how an Iphone was created :)))))))
You wouldn’t know where to start in order to create an Iphone :)))))))
Basically, you don’t understand what an Iphone is :))))))
But when you ask, I as an engineer, I am 100% sure, that life wasn’t created by heating/cooling/shaking flasks with chemicals :)))))))))))))
Seversky
You guys teach these nonsensical things in schools around the world.
YOU HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE that the life was not created ….
Otangelo,
I apologize again, today for my conversation with Seversky.
It must be frustrating to see something like that below your post.
It is a shame… I know…
PS: I was wondering, are you using some deepfake technology in your videos ? Is it some software, or what is it ?
Seversky @
Why not give us some pointers? Please tell us how you *poof* integrated complexity (instantiated in your postings to achieve a specific function) into existence. Tell us how you create your wonderful thoughts.
Ontangelo @28
As I understand it, the fold of a protein, a three-dimensional structure, has a specific function. Are you saying that those parts of the structure of the protein that are seemingly unrelated to the fold are also essential to the fold function? That if you remove or change those parts of the protein that are (seemingly) unrelated to the fold structure its main function seizes?
@10
I wonder: would it be fair to say that in your view, emergentism violates the principle of ex nihilo nihil fit (‘from nothing, nothing can come’)?
If one thinks of emergence as a spontaneous tendency for simple systems to become more complex all on their own, would it might seem as if the system is adding more information to itself — and that information is coming ‘from nowhere’?
And as a result, it now looks as if this spontaneous ’emergence’ of more complex systems (which can also described as a movement away from entropy) involves the coming into being of information that wasn’t there before — thus violating the principle of ex nihilo nihil fit.
Is this why you use the words “poof” and “magic” to describe emergentism?
BA77
The lengths that you feel compelled to go to always have the last word border on the ridiculous. My point, as usual, is much less grandiose than you suggest. Martin_r has said over and over that only engineers are competent and capable of addressing “design” and evolution—that scientists are incapable of such activities. Or he childishly wants to parse “inventor” vs. “designer”.Beyond the fact that his observation is patently absurd, sometimes he needs to be schooled on the facts. But then.you now and again also need schooling. Rosalind Franklin used a fine-focus X-ray tube and a micro-camera that she modified. Franklin was an X-ray crystallographer and chemist.
Contrary to your claim, scientists design and build their own lab equipment, or jerry-rig equipment all the time. For example, the MRI was invented by Raymond Damadian, a physician.. it was refined by Peter Mansfield, a physicist, and Paul Lauterbur, a chemist, for which they got a Nobel Prize. Marie Curie designed and built a bunch of her own equipment. Many times scientists collaborate with engineers to design and build scientific tools and equipment.
But this should be obvious, even to you and Martin_r……..
Martin_r @30, 34,
Or “differential erosion and incremental horizontal deposition.” Your apt analogy only fails in the number of orders of magnitude that it falls short of reality!
The truth of the matter is that Darwinists use their “gods-of-the-gaps” argument–their twin gods being named MUSTA and MGHTA.
The video above is indeed a “deep fake” which uses robotic text to speech technology and repetitive head, mouth, and eye movements. Instead, a simple photo and printed quote along with commentary and perhaps a bulleted summary would be better and shorter in my opinion.
-Q
PM1@
Sadly, some people fail to distinguish between the order created by natural processes, such as water freezing to form a snowflake, and complex functional specified organization/information. The former results from natural laws directing the arrangement of molecules. However, for a medium to contain information/specified complexity, it must have the freedom to take on numerous possible arrangements of parts.
So, if the book “Hamlet” writes itself—“adding more information to itself”—, without the input of an intelligent designer in the form of a writer, then, indeed, that would mean that information is *poof*“coming from nowhere.”
My claim is that no sane person buys into such nonsense.
ChuckyD, you don’t seem to realize just how insane the Darwinian denial of design is. Regardless of whomever designs the experiments, the fact that they are INTELLIGENTLY DESIGNED in the first place refutes the claim that Intelligent Design has no place in science.
Not one scientific instrument would ever exist if men did not first intelligently design that scientific instrument. Not one test tube, microscope, telescope, spectroscope, or etc.. etc.., was ever found just laying around on a beach somewhere which was ‘naturally’ constructed by nature. Not one experimental result would ever be rationally analyzed since there would be no immaterial minds to rationally analyze the immaterial logic and immaterial mathematics that lay behind the intelligently designed experiments in the first place.
All of science, every nook and cranny of it, is based on the presupposition of intelligent design and is certainly not based on the presupposition of methodological naturalism.
Verse:
Shoot, you can’t even explain the existence of the computer sitting right in front of your face without invoking ‘top-down’ intelligent design,
Shoot, within the reductive materialistic framework of Darwinian evolution, where minds are held to be merely a consequence of physics, you can’t even explain the existence of a single sentence you are writing on this blog,
To give an example of just how insane the denial of Intelligent Design in science is, “if Einstein did not have free will in some meaningful sense, then he could not have been responsible for the theory of relativity – it would have been a product of lower level processes but not of an intelligent mind choosing between possible options.
I find it very hard to believe this to be the case – indeed it does not seem to make any sense.”
So again, all of science, every nook and cranny of it, is based on the presupposition of intelligent design and is certainly not based on the presupposition of methodological naturalism.
Supplemental notes:
CD at 36,
You have run out of arguments. I study the history of technology. I have a background in electronics. Unguided evolution has failed. Only by building databases based on actual observations of living things are scientists getting somewhere. Sequencing the human genome has led to a collection of a large number of DNA sequences. The following article makes two unprovable claims: That evolution continued to upgrade organisms over eons and that “decision making” was involved as if evolution has intelligence and foresight. It does not.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK25465/
To make money off this data, synthetic biology is looking to modify existing organisms to make useful/profitable biological products.
https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/policy-issues/Synthetic-Biology
That’s where everything is heading. Darwin is no longer important, just processing the data, and identifying the functions of coding and non-coding regions of the human genome. And making money for industry.
Tell me. Humans and apes allegedly had a common ancestor. When did this happen? When did an ape give birth to something that would go on to become “modern humans”? Scientists now know this never happened. That apes and humans are two separate species. Yet this idea of a common ancestor persists. Why is that?
Bornagain77 @
Excellent point. Science itself is the product of intelligent design. However, honesty compels the soul to confess that ChuckyD has a point: there is indeed one branch of science that is completely devoid of intelligence, namely “evolutionary biology.”
*poof*
Miracle(s) are compulsory for all worldviews. :)))
Whistler at 42,
I wouldn’t phrase it quite that way. There are only two ideas in play here: Evolution and Intelligent Design. ID clearly fits the facts better and orients human beings to the fact that intelligence was required for everything that was ever made, animate and inanimate.
‘ • The Church “proclaims that by the light of reason the human intellect can readily and clearly discern purpose and design in the natural world, including the world of living things.”
‘• “Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.”
“Christoph Cardinal Schönborn is archbishop of Vienna and general editor of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.”
PM1, we both know non-being has no causal powers. The point is, complex, functionally specific organisation is information rich, and that needs to come from a credible causal source. The poof magic is about trying to pull such from a non existent hat. There is precisely one well warranted source for such, intelligently directed configuration. The needle in haystack search challenge to get to shorelines of fine tuned functional organisation of high complexity speaks for itself, utterly dominating incremental hill climbing within such zones. KF
CD
Sure, using pre-designed components and tools. Pre-designed by engineers. And if they require a more advanced lab tools (e.g DNA sequencers for ENCODE project), they call real engineers.
PS: I never said, that a biologist can not become an engineer for a moment … but it just confirms what I said previously — YOU NEED ENGINEERS … but I won’t argue about such a obvious thing … this debate is ridiculous …
PM1, are you aware that in statistical thermodynamics, entropy is little more than the dominance by sheer statistical weight of predominant clusters of microstates in systems not constrained from moving there? In a sense it is applied probability and statistics; giving it powerful generality. Going to Clausius etc, we further see that injection of unconstrained energy only serves to open up more possible states, strengthening the statistical trend. So, systems open to inflow of energy and/or mass unless constrained, are prone to be more pushed to such clusters. And more. KF
I’m reading “Your Designed Body” By systems engineer Steve Laufmann and Howard Glicksmann MD. A remarkable book.
https://www.amazon.com/Your-Designed-Body-Steve-Laufmann/dp/1637120206/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1ZHIUCQVXODFW&keywords=your+designed+body+by+steve+laufmann+and+howard+glicksman&qid=1673783454&sprefix=your+designed+body%2Caps%2C177&sr=8-1
This book destroys Darwinian Evolution, but only if it is read. It’s all the evidence needed to come to the conclusion that evolution is false and Intelligent Design & Enginering is true without question.
Martin_r, you may appreciate this. Dr Hunter starts off his talk on the impossibility of unguided Darwinian processes explaining the origin of sexual reproduction by highlighting the massive amount of “coordinated engineering” that must go into designing an airplane.
# 34
Origenes
rather than moving goal post, what about answering my question? How do you deal with the fact that proteins or riboproteins require a minimum size in order to be able to perform their function? And the fact, that one single specified ribonucleotide does have to be placed at very specific place in the chain in order for the entire translation machine to work?
The small-subunit rRNA has ?1500 nt, of which we identify 140 that are absolutely invariant among the 1961 species in our alignment.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35115361/
In the ribosomes of prokaryotes such as bacteria, the SSU contains a single small rRNA molecule (~1500 nucleotides) while the LSU contains one single small rRNA and a single large rRNA molecule (~3000 nucleotides). These are combined with ~50 ribosomal proteins to form ribosomal subunits.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribosomal_RNA
Leaving aside the over 50 proteins required, besides the ribonucleotides, we have 4500 ribonucleotides required. What are the odds, for the shuffling of the prebiotic earth to find a chain, where the A2451 is set in the right place, in order to be able to perform amino acid bond formation, and catenation?
It is in the realm of the absolutely impossible. This alone is a death knell for abiogenesis.
Ontangelo @ 49
To be clear, my question was about your claim that “EVERY protein, which is the product of the information stored in DNA, is irreducibly complex.” My concern was whether the term ‘irreducibly complex’, as defined by Behe (see #12), applies to each and every protein.
Interesting question. Your argument is that, given that there is a minimum size for everything, everything that has a function is irreducibly complex. You are probably right. This generality was not part of my understanding of the term ‘irreducibly complex.’ Thx.
Amazing stuff. You have probably a good reason to bring this up, but I fail to understand how this relates to your claim that every protein is irreducibly complex.
Otangelo,
could you please send me a mainstream paper references for the following, I would like to have a closer look at it… sounds interesting
#1
“And the fact, that one single specified ribonucleotide does have to be placed at very specific place in the chain in order for the entire translation machine to work?”
#2
How do you deal with the fact that proteins or riboproteins require a minimum size in order to be able to perform their function?
by the way, have you heard of miniproteins ?
“New universe of miniproteins is upending cell biology and genetics”
https://www.science.org/content/article/new-universe-miniproteins-upending-cell-biology-and-genetics
BA @48
thanks for the link, I will watch it tonight before I go sleep.
I visit “Darwin’s god”-blog regularly, unfortunately, Dr. Hunter updates his blog not very often.
PS:
sure … to even suggest that sexual reproduction evolved is beyond absurd … and then the various switches, how it switched back to asexual, but then, in time, back to sexual and so on :))))))))
#51 Martin
I googled: A2451. This paper was the first that came up:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1074552108001257
A2451 is one of the five universally conserved active-site rRNA residues that comprise the catalytic core of the PTC
at my library you find more information. Just search for 2451 with the browser search engine:
https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t1661-translation-through-ribosomes-amazing-nano-machines#2578
Origenes:
What would convince you that ID is a real thing? Or, that it tops naturalistic explanations to explain our existence?
Martin_r #27
I lost hope a long time ago.
Severski
==If it’s so simple then you should be able to tell us exactly how it was done and who did it==
On the how:
By implementing specific symbolic constraints to establish a semantically closed system with bio-polymeric memory; where the memory contains a description of the system to replicate, together with a description of the interpreter of that description. The implementation is based on an adapter like codon-anticodon recognition mechanism, and an interpretation/copying dual processing of bio-polymeric memory.
== who did it? ==
An intelligent designer with the capacities of foresight and planning, and the ability to execute the plan.
The data available does not reveal details like the designer’s passport number or the place of birth.
Will you acknowledge that this or something like this has been said on this blog many times before? I am not holding my breath.
==sure … to even suggest that sexual reproduction evolved is beyond absurd … ==
The problem is that the imagination of a convinced Darwinist is so well trained that ‘absurd’ can easily become ‘plausible’ and then ‘certain’.
.
#55
Exactly. Exactly.
Dr Selensky, nail has met hammer, wham! KF
Martin_r @51,
Thank you for the link to the interesting paper on miniproteins. I noticed this excerpt recognizes what turned out to be a long-held false assumption of “junk DNA.”
Thus, once again, the assumption of something unknown in stretches of DNA and RNA as random junk slowed scientific progress and discovery. An ID approach would have found its utility faster.
-Q