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Intelligent Design and the Demarcation Problem

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One common objection which is often raised regarding the proposition of real design (as opposed to design that is only apparent) is the criticism that design is unable to be falsified by the ruthless rigour of empirical scrutiny. Science, we are told, must restrict its explanatory devices to material causes. This criterion of conformity to materialism as a requisite for scientific merit is an unfortunate consequence of a misconstrual of the principal of uniformitarianism with respect to the historical sciences. Clearly, a proposition – if it is to be considered properly scientific – must constrict its scope to categories of explanation with which we have experience. It is this criterion which allows a hypothesis to be evaluated and contrasted with our experience of that causal entity. Explanatory devices should not be abstract, lying beyond the scope of our uniform and sensory experience of cause-and-effect.

This, naturally, brings us on to the question of what constitutes a material cause. Are all causes, which we have experience with, reducible to the material world and the interaction of chemical reactants? It lies as fundamentally axiomatic to rationality that we be able to detect the presence of other minds. This is what C.S. Lewis described as “inside knowledge”. Being rational agents ourselves, we have an insider’s knowledge of what it is to be rational – what it is to be intelligent. We know that it is possible for rational beings to exist and that such agents leave behind them detectable traces of their activity. Consciousness is a very peculiar entity. Consciousness interacts with the material world, and is detectable by its effects – but is it material itself? I have long argued in favour of substance dualism – that is, the notion that the mind is itself not reducible to the material and chemical constituents of the brain, nor is it reducible to the dual forces of chance and necessity which together account for much of the other phenomena in our experience. Besides the increasing body of scientific evidence which lends support to this view, I have long pondered whether it is possible to rationally reconcile the concept of human autonomy (free will) and materialistic reductionism with respect to the mind. I have thus concluded that free will exists (arguing otherwise leads to irrationality or reductio ad absurdum) and that hence materialism – at least with respect to the nature of consciousness – must be false if rationality is to be maintained.

My reasoning can be laid out as follows:

1: If atheism is true, then so is materialism.

2: If materialism is true, then the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

3: If the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain, then human autonomy and consciousness are illusory because our free choices are determined by the dual forces of chance and necessity.

4: Human autonomy exists.

From 3 & 4,

5: Therefore, the mind is not reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

From 2 & 5,

6: Therefore, materialism is false.

From 1 & 6,

7: Therefore, atheism is false.

Now, where does this leave us? Since we have independent reason to believe that the mind is not reducible to material constituents, materialistic explanations for the effects of consciousness are not appropriate explanatory devices. How does mind interact with matter? Such a question cannot be addressed in terms of material causation because the mind is not itself a material entity, although in human agents it does interact with the material components of the brain on which it exerts its effects. The immaterial mind thus interacts with the material brain to bring about effects which are necessary for bodily function. Without the brain, the mind is powerless to bring about its effects on the body. But that is not to say that the mind is a component of the brain.

We have further independent reason to expect a non-material cause when discussing the question of the origin of the Universe. Being an explanation for the existence of the natural realm itself – complete with its contingent natural laws and mathematical expressions – natural law, with which we have experience, cannot be invoked as an explanatory factor without reasoning in a circle (presupposing the prior existence of the entity which one is attempting to account for). When faced with explanatory questions with respect to particular phenomena, then, the principle of methodological materialism breaks down because we possess independent philosophical reason to suppose the existence of a supernatural (non-material) cause.

Material causes are uniformly reducible to the mechanisms and processes of chance (randomness) and necessity (law). Since mind is reducible to neither of those processes, we must introduce a third category of explanation – that is, intelligence.

When we look around the natural world, we can distinguish between those objects which can be readily accounted for by the dual action of chance and necessity, and those that cannot. We often ascribe such latter phenomena to agency. It is the ability to detect the activity of such rational deliberation that is foundational to the ID argument.

Should ID be properly regarded as a scientific theory? Yes and no. While ID theorists have not yet outlined a rigorous scientific hypothesis as far as the mechanistic process of the development of life (at least not one which has attracted a large body of support), ID is, in its essence, a scientific proposition – subject to the criteria of empirical testability and falsifiability. To arbitrarily exclude such a conclusion from science’s explanatory toolkit is to fundamentally truncate a significant portion of reality – like trying to limit oneself to material processes of randomness and law when attempting to explain the construction of a computer operating system.

Since rational deliberation characteristically leaves patterns which are distinguishable from those types of patterns which are left by non-intelligent processes, why is design so often shunned as a non-scientific explanation – as a ‘god-of-the-gaps’ style argument? Assuredly, if Darwinism is to be regarded as a mechanism which attempts to explain the appearance of design by non-intelligent processes (albeit hitherto unsuccessfully), it follows by extension that real design must be regarded as a viable candidate explanation. To say otherwise is to erect arbitrary parameters of what constitutes a valid explanation and what doesn’t. It is this arbitrarily constraints on explanation which leads to dogmatism and ideology – which, I think, we can all agree is not the goal or purpose of the scientific enterprise.

Comments
Vivid: Pardon a moment. Re: What can be a greater sign of an imperfect and immature state of the will than that, with good and evil before it, it should be in suspense what to do? An imperfect and immature will (and mind subject to the limits of finitude and fallibility) in the face of a situation where what seems good may be just he opposite, and what seems distasteful may be the best -- remember, "eat your veggies" -- is a sign of the need for discipline, not of want of freedom to choose which way [light vs darkness] in the absolute. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 27, 2010
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Okay: Some threads get stale, others like fine vintages, get better. This one is in class II. TGP -- after a manful apology -- has put forth a powerful and clear summary of key questions facing us as evidently reasoning creatures in an evidently real world. Before that, I argued that the key issue is the reality of that world. For as we may see from say Wikipedia's summary [as well as dictionaries on phil], determinisms imply delusions about the nature of reality. For, all acknowledge that we seem to be in a world where we freely make choices as we perceive, think and act. But, according to the determinists, hard and soft, we make choices on the strength of impulses in a chain of cause-effect events tracing back ultimately to whatever accidents and circumstances surround the origin and resulting nature of our cosmos. The pivot of this, is that effects have sufficient causes or they do not occur. But, the hidden premise in that is that the transcendent, choosing unified "I" is delusional. Not, that it is merely limited [a la Rom 7 - 8 where one is not capable in him- or her- self of walking in perfect virtue], but that it is false and delusional. Why is that held so? A: Something is setting sufficient causes, so is driving and controlling those choices, and (on determinism) it is not our real power of choices from real alternatives in real situations, i.e. the causal chain is preset and the concept of real choice is false. Thus, delusional. But, the concrete example of writing in Japanese is a first clue that something is wrong here: a language in which one mixes and matches from four or five main writing systems, with many functionally equivalent ways of saying the same thing, up to various nuances, can only credibly work if one not only has knowledge of the thousands of possibilities, but also ability to select which cluster one wants to use to make a statement, even so mundane and simple as the following sports page headline:
Radcliffe to compete in Olympic marathon, also implied to appear in the 10,000 m [Wiki Example, Japanese Writing, from newspaper: Asahi Shimbun -- Japan's leading newspaper -- on 19 April 2004]
It is simply not credible that on the initial conditions of our cosmos in aeons past, this headline was necessitated and the copyeditor was just a conduit, deluded to think he was making decisions as to how to express his point for an intelligent 12 year old. Worse, if the proposed necessarily following and preset chain of cause-effect sequences were so, it would entail that the copyeditor's mind was deluded. Similarly, when I write here and select a particular way to express myself, I am deluded in imagining myself sufficiently free to significantly choose. This may seem trivial, but it expresses the key point: once we rule out freedom, it is gone, and something is there to replace it -- delusion and vicious circularities. But, if we are THAT delusional, then severe consequences follow, for we are here talking about the central perceived facts of our conscious existence. We only access what we believe is the external world through that perception, so if we undermine that perception unnecessarily, we destroy confidence in our ability to access a real world. A Cartesian delusional world of manipulating demons, or a Matrix world of alien pods looms [or just plain Plato's cave of men in stocks since childhood and fed on shadow shows they imagine to be reality]. Unless we have positive and demonstrative reason to think ourselves deluded, wisdom is to accept that something so complex and diverse as the world we share is not a delusion. Nor is it self-evident that choice is a matter of weighing up competing internal impulses and tipping the balance to the side of which is weightier. For, in the path of virtue, the point is by reaching out to the Transcendent, to learn to listen to and heed the "still, small voice" that calls us to the good; hard to hear though it be through the ever-present fog of resentment, rage, lust, greed and selfishness. And, yes, "Jn 10:27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me." But, that is an active not a passive process, not merely following the loudest voice or strongest impulse; but disciplining oneself under the grace of the Transcendent, to listen and follow the loving, true, wise and right. Thus, the deterministic case simply does not ring true, leading to a shadowland of delusions and cutting clean across the realities of he path of the just:
Prov. 4:18 The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining ever brighter till the full light of day. 19 But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness; they do not know what makes them stumble.
GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 27, 2010
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Oops, the usual error with tags (using cite where I should have used blockquote). The second paragraphs above is still Vivid's, and not mine. No "intention" to steal your thoughts, Vivid! :)gpuccio
August 26, 2010
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Vivid, thank you very kindly. But I had it coming! I will respond tomorrow to your posts. I like your refinements re. free will. And I REALLY like your thoughts in 567. I just can't do it justice tonight. Thanks again. tgp And GP, thank you, too. :-)tgpeeler
August 26, 2010
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vivid: I think an argument can be made that the highest and the perfect state of the will is a state of necessity. Is God not virtuous? God cannot choose evil and it is certain that he will choose good , does this lack of ability to choose evil mean that the certainty that He will always choose good undermines the heart of virtue itself? Does the necessity of Gods choices makes Gods choices an illusion and not a real choice? What can be a greater sign of an imperfect and immature state of the will than that, with good and evil before it, it should be in suspense what to do? This is a statement that I certainly agree with. I would put it this way. We cannot attribute to God the same concept of free will which is appropriate for us. In that sense, Gos can be said not to have free will. He simply does not need it! He is free, and He harbors no contradictions and no conflicts and no imperfections in Himself. So, He just does what He wants, and what He wants is good. Well, I believe that our free will is a reflection of God's freedom, in an imperfect and limited being, with conflicting desires and views, including the conflict between accepting the will of God (the good) and rebelling to it (the bad). If God had not given us that gift, that reflection if His complete freedom, we would be completely determined. But He has. And therefore, we are strongly influenced, but partially free. That is free will: partial freedom, in a worlds of imperfection and contingency. That's why the natural expression of that partial freedom is the power to choose, rather than the power to freely will, which is of God. But that power to choose is no small thing. If repeatedly and patiently applied to choose good, it changes us, it changes our destiny, and it opens us to the grace of God.gpuccio
August 26, 2010
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Green: About moral responsibility, I would appreciate if you could also briefly comment on my post #583.gpuccio
August 26, 2010
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RE 643" And if it had a beginning it must have had a Beginner. Things are not looking good for naturalism at this point. To be continued tomorrow if anyone is interested." And thus the Beginner must necessarily exist, that is it cannot not exist. From there we can discuss what are the attributes that must accompany a neccessary existence otherwise it cannot be a necessary existence. For instance I dont qualify because I could have or could not have existed but a neccessary existence cannot not exist. Does that make any sense? Vividvividbleau
August 26, 2010
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tgp First re 638 it takes a man of character to demonstrate humility…kudos!!! RE 642 Excellent post. “If the question on the table is free will, one of the first things that must be done is to define free will” In my post of 401 I defined what I thought was a good definition put forth by Edwards and Locke That which the mind chooses anything. The faculty of the will is that faculty or power, or principle of mind, by which it is capable of choosing: an act of the will is the same as an act of choosing or choice” Edwards “The Freedom of the Will” “The will signifies nothing but a power or ability to pefer or choose” Locke “Human Understanding” tgp "I am saying that free will simply means that I can choose to steal or not steal and ultimately, the cause of what I choose to do will be driven by what I want to do. That’s where “free will” as I think of it, ultimately terminates. In my will, what I want to do.” I concur with one tiny adjustment “most” want. In 540 I wrote "Can a choice be any freer than a choice made because we determined to make it? my choices are determined by my “most want” at the time the choice is made" tgp "Choice is merely the outworking of my will. This obviously ignores the “gun to the head” scenario but I can still argue that I will ultimately do what I want to do, even if faced with that.” I a reminded of the Jack Benny skit were the robber puts a gun to the head of Benny and says your money or your life! We then see Benny put his chin in his hand and hesitates. The gunman gets frustrated and says “what are you doing’? Benny looks at him and says “I am thinking” The point being one could modify that a free choice is a choice I choose based on my most want given the options available to me at the point the choice is made. tgp "On the other hand, I am not really “free” in the sense that I cannot decide to be God or an alien or that I will live for 200 years. I am not “free” to declare that I have musical talent and thus have it.” Nor are we free, to use Augustine’s phrase non posse non peccare ‘not able not to sin’ It is my theological position that no one born into this world is free not to will to sin. Which brings me to something I wrote in 567 and I would like your thoughts on it. I think an argument can be made that the highest and the perfect state of the will is a state of necessity. Is God not virtuous? God cannot choose evil and it is certain that he will choose good , does this lack of ability to choose evil mean that the certainty that He will always choose good undermines the heart of virtue itself? Does the necessity of Gods choices makes Gods choices an illusion and not a real choice? What can be a greater sign of an imperfect and immature state of the will than that, with good and evil before it, it should be in suspense what to do? tgp “Until this question is settled, the answer about our nature and our “will,” free or not, can never be conclusively answered. And once it is settled, we have our conclusive answer“ Bingo!! My Best . Vividvividbleau
August 26, 2010
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I think there is a way and it is this. The application of reason to empirical evidence, is, in the end, the only way to know what is true. But what else do we know? We know, as StephenB “famously” said, “reason’s rules inform evidence, evidence does not inform reason’s rules. Another way to say that is “reason is the final authority in all matters of truth.” The reason I can say that is simply because it cannot be denied. To deny reason is to affirm reason. To anyone who objects to this, my rejoinder is: Tell me then, why is it that you reject reason as the ultimate authority in matters of truth? You then, must reason with me about why reason is not sovereign. This is self-contradictory and therefore self-evidently false. This then is the fundamental principle of epistemology. It is the basis for all rational thought. The next questions might be: What is rational thought? And who are you to decide what that is? The first question has a good answer. And that answer eliminates the need for the second answer (which is, BTW, nobody), because in philosophy, in the search for truth, in the end, there are no authorities, only arguments. So where do we start with rational thought? Aristotle and Descartes, for two, started at the beginning, with what we call today, first principles. The one thing we can not deny is our own existence. The second thing is that we cannot deny that we are “us.” I am myself. This is the principle or Law of Identity (LI). Sometimes it is broken into two principles, Being and Identity, but they are so closely linked that often you will just see it described as Law of Identity. A thing is what it is. We note two things, everything that exists has identity, and everything that has identity, exists. Simply, this law states that 1 is 1. Or in the case of me, I am who I am. In the case of you, you are who you are. The next thing that immediately occurs to us is that if I exist then I do not, not exist. That is, I cannot both exist and not exist. This is called the Law of Non-contradiction (LNC). In epistemology, the statement would be that a truth claim cannot both be true and false (at the same time and in the same way). The ontological expression would be 1 is not equal to not 1. The epistemological expression is true is not equal to false. The next law is called the Law of the Excluded Middle (LEM). This law says that (in ontology) something either exists or it doesn’t. Either 1 or not 1. In epistemology, the expression of the LEM is either true or false. There are no other possible states of affairs for something that exists and for a truth claim. It either exists or it does not and it is either true or false. Lastly, we have causality, or the principle or law of sufficient cause. This law recognizes that we live in a finite universe and that every event must have a sufficient cause. Else it wouldn’t have happened. This law, by the way, is foundational to the enterprise of science. If we “permitted” things to just happen for no reason and for no cause then science could not be done. No causality, no science. This too, is undeniable and ultimately it will directly bear on our issue: What is the nature of man? These first principles are foundational to all rational thought. They cannot be proven as they come “first” in the chain of reasoning. If they did not come first then they could be proven but then they wouldn’t be first. Anyone who’s had geometry in high school understands how this works. Axioms cannot be proven but they need not be proven since they are self-evident. Someone may say, but many things that are self-evident are not true. I reply that these statements are not first principles because the denial of a first principle results in a self-contradiction and thus proves its truth (by means of the LNC and LEM). For example: I do not exist. This is a denial of the Law of Identity but in order for me to declare that I do not exist, I must exist. Therefore, an internal contradiction has been created. Since there are only two possible states of affairs and my denial has been proven false, the original assertion must be true. Were I to say that it is self-evident that the moon is closer to me than New York city because I can see the moon but not New York city, this does not create an internal contradiction. It’s merely a matter of fact. It can be true or false but the assertion does not contradict itself. To summarize, the assertion of first principles is obviously true. We know this because the denial of a first principle creates an internal contradiction, proving, by means of the LEM, that the first principle is true. So what? Here’s the so what. We have seen that reason is the supreme authority in matters of truth. We have also seen that first principles are the foundation for all rational thought and that they are undeniably true. So the skeptic and agnostic are defeated from the outset. There are things that we can undeniably know. Given the truth of first principles, there are other things that reason can tell us that are true. We know that, as an exercise in pure reason, that the universe had a beginning. We know that the universe is finite because we can count things in it. We know that the universe must have had a first cause because to say that it didn’t is to say that the antecedent chain of causes that led to now, never began. But we’re here, so it did begin. This argument has many forms but they are all based on the undeniable truth that a real infinite number of seconds, causes, movers, or contingencies cannot exist. Therefore, time had a beginning, the universe had a Cause, a First Mover, and there is a Necessary Being that grounds all contingent beings and things. As it turns out, illustrating SB’s principle that reason’s rules inform evidence and not the other way around, there is empirical evidence that the universe is finite, confirming our rational conclusion. The first law of thermodynamics essentially says that energy can neither be created or destroyed. That is one way of saying the universe is finite. There is a fixed amount of energy. They aren’t making any more of it. The second law, that in a closed system (such as the universe) entropy (a measure of unusable energy) will reach a maximum state. Clearly, if the universe were infinitely old, it would have reached a maximum state of entropy by now. But it hasn’t. Therefore, it is not infinitely old, it had a beginning. And if it had a beginning it must have had a Beginner. Things are not looking good for naturalism at this point. To be continued tomorrow if anyone is interested.tgpeeler
August 26, 2010
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If the question on the table is free will, one of the first things that must be done is to define free will. What, exactly, does “free” mean? It means, simply, the capacity of the will to choose from different courses of action, given current circumstances. For example, let’s say that I have an opportunity to steal money and not get caught. Furthermore let’s say that I’ve been brought up to believe that it’s wrong to steal, I’ve never stolen anything before, I have a predisposition not to steal, and so on. I am saying that free will simply means that I can choose to steal or not steal and ultimately, the cause of what I choose to do will be driven by what I want to do. That’s where “free will” as I think of it, ultimately terminates. In my will, what I want to do. It’s true that we all have our histories and that these do influence the choices we make (otherwise, what’s the point of training, for one example?) but ultimately, I choose to do whatever I choose to do because I want to do it. In the end, I choose to do what I want to do. Choice is merely the outworking of my will. This obviously ignores the “gun to the head” scenario but I can still argue that I will ultimately do what I want to do, even if faced with that. For example, I could submit or I could not. Even with a gun to my head, it’s still my choice. It matters not what the consequences are, or how unpleasant they may be, in the end, I will still choose to do what I want to do. I can give up the Jews in hiding (say) and save my skin or I can refuse and die. It’s still my choice. On the other hand, I am not really “free” in the sense that I cannot decide to be God or an alien or that I will live for 200 years. I am not “free” to declare that I have musical talent and thus have it. Let’s just say that I am responsible for my choices, all of my choices, even those that may be forced on me. To summarize, my “choice” is an expression of my will. It is influenced by internal and external factors, but in the final analysis it is MY WILL that decides what to do. In that sense, then, I say we are “free.” As far as what “determinism” means, I will quote from The Oxford Guide To Philosophy. On page 313 it says: “Determinism … is usually the thesis that all our mental states and acts, including choices and decisions, and all our actions are effects necessitated by preceding causes. Thus our futures are in fact fixed and unalterable in much the same way that the past is. The truth or falsity of the thesis depends upon our natures, including our physical natures, and not at all upon our desires or hopes or other feelings.” The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy, 2nd edition, on page 327 in its entry on “free will problem” says: “As usually understood, determinism holds that whatever happens is determined by antecedent conditions, where determination is standardly conceived as causation by antecedent events and circumstances. So construed, determinism implies that at any time the future is already fixed and unique, with no possibility of alternative development.” So we have two general concepts on the table. The one says that the future can be different and the other says not. The one says that I make choices determined by my will and the other says not. Let’s talk about determinism for a moment. What do the two definitions or descriptions above say about determinism? First, that the future is determined. Second, that our desires or hopes or other feelings have no effect on this future. This seems clear enough. But what’s interesting, and what really lies at the bottom of this debate, is this: What is our nature? The Oxford entry recognizes this by saying that the past determines the future and then it says that our desires or hopes or other feelings have no causal power in space and time. So what we have here is not really an argument about determinism or free will, it is about: What is our nature? For if we can correctly answer that question then the problem of free will resolves itself. In other words, as always, the real argument is about the premises, not the conclusion. This implies that we have (at least) two entirely different conceptions of the nature of mankind. On the one hand, we have the determinist view of man with no soul, no free choice or agency, no restrictions of moral law, no destiny, no purpose. On the other hand, we have a Christian conception of mankind. The nature of this man reflects the image of his Creator. This man has self-awareness, this man reasons, this man manipulates symbols, he communicates, he has free will and he is responsible for its exercise. His standard is the perfect moral law of perfect God. This man also has been created for a reason, both temporal and eternal. We immediately see that we have still not reached the beginning or first premise of an argument. After all, one of our views claims that there is something prior to us. That there is a pre-existing superior Being that created us in His image. Well, how could we possibly begin to know such a thing? Until this question is settled, the answer about our nature and our "will," free or not, can never be conclusively answered. And once it is settled, we have our conclusive answer.tgpeeler
August 26, 2010
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I haven't delved into the topic of freewill before, but have been finding this discussion fascinating. Can someone who is a Christian explain to me (and I apologise if this is a trite question) how free will fits into the idea of an omniscient God? I guess it means there are some things God doesn't know will happen until they happen?zeroseven
August 26, 2010
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PS: Extending the physicalist orientation above so some version of a neo-hyperfatalism would make little difference to the result. We are now back to Descartes' clever demon manipulating us, our minds and our perceived world a la Matrix or Plato's Cave or whatever metaphor you wish. Such a world being empirically indistinguishable from the one we think we inhabit, we cannot cite "evidence" to resolve the matter. But we can infer to logic and freedom to choose. Such a view entails that our general senses and common sense are maximally delusional. So, it ends up in utter self-referential incoherence: if true we have no grounds for thinking it true. That means we are back at the epistemic principle that unless we have positive evidence that we live in a Matrix or Plato's cave world, we have no good reason to go there. At least Plato's Socrates had the sense to talk about being able to stand up and see the apparatus of deception for oneself. I think a certain slice of Galilean peasant wisdom cuts to the heart of the matter:
Matt 6:22"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
Time to climb out of the hall of mirrors . . .kairosfocus
August 26, 2010
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Green: You are quite right that I now have little confidence in SEP on topics like this. Once I saw how they shamefully mis-handled related issues, my respect for their quality of articles and quality of peer review -- much less basic broughtupcy -- sank like a stone. To about the level of Wikipedia; which you know I often cite in contexts like this as making an inadvertently damaging admission against interest. I do not take the SEP's attempted dismissal of the evidence, experience and consciousness that point to the reality of freedom to think for ourselves seriously. To see why, simply think about the self-referentiality of their remarks. Do they speak like that because they are actually examining and freely evaluating evidence and composing a summary of their findings, or because their brain/mental states, bodily and external circumstances happened to be in a particular condition at some point in the past that mechanically made that come out so. And, in turn because the cosmos happened to be in one particular accidental condition at some remote point in the past that -- perhaps up to some random effects [i.e. a statistical bound] -- drove outcomes to what hey are on chance and mechanical necessity? Let's hear Wiki's all too telling summary:
A compatibilist, or soft determinist . . . will define a free act in a way that does not hinge on the presence or absence of prior causes. For example, one could define a free act as one that involves no compulsion by another person. Since the physical universe and the laws of nature are not persons, actions which are caused by the laws of nature would still be free acts [talk about redefining away a problem by begging the question!] - therefore it is wrong to conclude that universal determinism would mean we are never free. For example, you could choose to continue reading or to stop reading this article; while a compatibilist determinist would not deny that whatever choice you make will have been predetermined since the beginning of time, they will argue that this choice that you make is an example of free will because no one is forcing you to make whatever choice you make . . .
nothing that a question-begging definition or two can't fix, my dear . . . In short, the whole exercise falls apart once we take a closer look. No wonder, as Wiki sums up objectors: "the compatibilists are showing something to be compatible with determinism, but they think that something cannot properly be called free will." Sorry, that is a case of reductio ad absurdum, once we see that the consequence of such is that reason itself evaporates into Leibniz's mill wheels grinding away at one another in a chain of cause-effect links. Cause-effect is not rational ground-consequent and has no necessary connexion to it. (And BTW, the only reason computer Artihmetic-Logic Units perform logical operations is because we have organised their circuits to achieve this, physically implementing mathematical operations on a set of digital symbols we have assigned. We interpret the outputs and use them for purposes we design, but as far as the ckts are concerned it is just voltages, gates switching when inputs reach certain thresholds, digital feedback and pules.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 26, 2010
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tgpeeler: great!gpuccio
August 26, 2010
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clive @ 630 message received. molch, please accept my sincere apologies for getting caught up in things and not remaining detached, for being overly sarcastic and even personal. I was thinking I needed to do this anyway and Clive's gentle reminder sealed the deal. Apologies to anyone else offended by my tone. Thanks.tgpeeler
August 26, 2010
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Green, your comments are very interesting, and I thank you for having really tried to understand my position. We could probably be satisfied at this point, but I believe that there is still some space to deepen some points and to clarify some others. So, I will try to address especially those aspects where there is really space for new thoughts. First of all, maybe you could, if you have a spare moment, give a look at my final posts to molch, especially #593 and #605, where, under molch's kind pressure, I have been stimulated to specify better some concepts. If necessary, I will paste here some paragraphs from them. So, let's start: 1) I’ll grant you that the cause in question is an agent-choice, but this still does not explain anything. The questioner wants to know why Joe chose A rather than B, but the agent-causationist has no answer to this. Just saying “choice” provides no explanation for the event. If someone asked “why did Joe choose A?”, no-one would accept the answer “because Joe chose A”. All you’re doing is repeating something the questioner already knows. Maybe this is a key point which I should clarify better. Let's adopt for a moment my model, and for simplicity let's suppose that the "range" of possible actions of our agent (be it Joe) at a certain moment 0 be only of two different variants: A and B. I don't really think that is the case, but it facilitates our discussion (and, after all, it could be the case). I have already stated that it is not important that A and B be very different one from the other. That depend essentially on another function, which I have called "inner freedom", different from "free will". Inner freedom is a result of the past use of free will, and therefore it is part of those inner states which at moment 0 are determined, having been already "fixed". If inner freedom is great, A and B will be very different, otherwise they will be rather similar. Anyway, they never coincide. Another important point: A and B are (I don't know how to express it better) "morally polarized" in respect to the agent. Please notice that it is not an absolute moral value, but a moral value relative to that specific agent. IOW, given the agent and its general past history, and his possible future destiny, A and B have an opposite meaning in relation to the agent: we will say, for simplicity, that A is "good" for the agent, and B is "bad" for the agent. Now, a materialist would now require all kinds of explanations about these statements, and I could probably try to give them, but at present I am discussing with you, who, I believe, are not a materialist, and I hope that's not necessary. You probably believe that good and bad things or events exist. If you allow, we could take a special private satisfaction, and suggest that the destiny of the agent, and the value of those two actions for him, are in some way known to God. But my point is, they are in some way known to the agent too. I have to be more precise, anyway. I am not saying that the agent knows something about them rationally. What I believe is that the agent, at some level of his consciousness (you have probably understood, at this point, that I believe that our consciousness has many different levels) the agent perceives both A and B as possible actions "in his range", and at the same time intuitively feels that one is good and the other is bad. I will explain better that "intuitive feeling" in a moment. Now comes the really difficult point, and the one for which, I admit, I have no special "explanation" or even "description". Let's put it this way: Joe, at time 0, finally chooses either A or B. Either the good action or the bad one. I anticipate your question: why? I don't think there is a human answer to that. But not because the agent libertarian model has some limit or fault, or because, as molch believes, it is in some way illogical. Nothing of that kind. There is no answer because this is a true mystery. It is, in essence, a problem of the same kind (maybe even the same) as the fundamental problem of all: why does evil exist? I think that is called the problem of theodicy. In a sense, I really believe it is the same problem. The problem of theodicy is: why does evil exist? And our problem is: why can we choose evil? Again, materialists will make thousands of objections to this. But I maintain that this is not necessarily a religious problem, but a truly universal problem. And a deep one, for all. But I have no real answer to that problem. You probably believe that whatever we do is decided by God. I understand that is a religious belief for you, and I respect it. But I have no reason to believe such a thing, neither religiously nor philosophically. Because my model of free will completely satisfies me, my reason, my intuition and my feeling. I know that we can choose evil. We often do. And, in the same way, I know that we can choose good. And we often do. And I know that that kind of choice has perceptible consequences on us. One for all: it increases or reduces our inner freedom. But I really have no answer to why evil exists, or to why we can choose it. So, you have to be satisfied with the fact that I believe that it is true. So, to the question: "why did Joe choose A?" there is indeed one answer: because he made the good choice (or the opposite). But to the question: "why did Joe at time 0 make the good choice, and not the bad one?" there is not really an answer. We could just say, if we are religious, that that's exactly the reason we are here: to make good or bad choices, to be in tune with God or out of tune with Him. Or, if we want to keep a lower profile, we could say that humans are free moral beings, and that they exert their nature by constantly choosing in a moral field. 2) You also say that agent-causation is explanatory in the same way that quantum mechanics is explanatory: it requires the whole “model” in the explanation. All I’ll say here is that quantum theory is not explanatory: it is descriptive. Quauntum theory, whilst possessing astounding predictive power, does not explain any of the phenomena it describes. We currently lack any explanation of quantum events. I must say that I disagree with you more freely (no pun intended) about QM. I don't think you have it quite correctly. The mathemathical model of QM does explain things. Indeed, I would say that science never "explains" in the sense that you seem to imply: science does not give us meanings. Science provides mathemathical/logical models whcih well describe things. And that's what QM does, and does brilliantly. You seem confounded by the fact that many of the aspects of QM are nor easily represented by us. That is just a demonstration that mathematics can understand outer reality better than our representative powers. But that's not a surprise. The idea if a "hidden variable" explanation of QM, while certainly Einsteinian, if definitely out of fashion. The mathemathical model of QM is one of the true triumphs of modern science. Understanding what it means is a challenge for both science and philosophy, but its capacity to correctly "describe/explain" many aspects of reality is out of discussion. Anyway, QM is not our main subject, so let's continue. 3) A quick remark about the concept of "intuitive feeling". I think here the key word is "intuitive". I think I can paste here what I said to molch: "Intuition is not a logically valid argument. Intuition is not a logical argument at all. Period. It is a cognitive instrument. Although useful for navigating the every day world, our intuition is wrong about the actual state of affairs all the time. Intuition says the earth is flat. Again, we are using our words to point at different things. I don’t certainly refer to that kind of things, which are sometimes labeled as “intuition”. I refer to intuition as the power of the self to cogniza some things directly, without the medium of senses or reason. An example? I have given it. Our intuition of our being conscious. We know we are conscious. How? Because we are. No logical reasoning is impied, only direct perception. The self is aware of its conscious processes, and gives a name to that awareness: consciousness. It’s the same as seeing a tree and giving it the name: tree. No logical process or reasoning is necessary for that. But the perception of our consciousness is direct, intuitive, and not mediated by the senses. In the same way I believe we perceive our being free, our being the originators of our choices, at least at a deep level, even if we are equally aware of many influences acting on those choices. This deep intuition is a cognitive information of great value, and we naturally use it in the building of all our maps of reality. That’s why humans have built their civilizations, their values and their language on the tacit assumptions of the existence of free will." A clarification about the "feeling". The fact is, I believe that the way we intuit the moral value is at the same time cognition and feeling. We feel that it is right or we know that it is good. At such deep level, truth is directly perceived, and its cognitive and moral aspects are inseparable. I am speaking of a very deep level of our consciousness. The real, wonderful mystery is that such a complex and deep truth is immediately obvious to most, probably all people, so much so that the concept of "moral conscience" is familiar to all. And do you remember that old cartoon, with Donald Duck and the angel-Donald and devil-Donald? It's of 1938. The title: Donald's Better Self. Great wisdom in popular culture! :) 4) Finally, I find very interesting this comment of yours: This means that theoretically, the agent could act against all her mental states, even if it doesn’t mean acting in absolutely any way possible). I think experience teaches the opposite; namely that we can only act according to our character, or our inner mental states. I think that the concept that one can act "against all his mental states". While that statement is certainly extreme, and does not usually occur, I don't think it is completely out of the game. In a sense, we have some rare examples of people who act, quite regularly, "against all their mental states", because they renounce completely (and freely!) the their whole human nature, and open themselves completely to God. We usually call them saints. In freely renouncing completely, out of a transcendental and supreme love, to all their human wills, they acquire the highest mental freedom, and the highest human condition.gpuccio
August 26, 2010
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Clive @ 634: " “Different” means “causal” by virtue of being different?" No. I illustrated why I think these differences become causal with an example. I'll reiterate it and expand the explanation a bit: Someone who, for whatever reason, does not have the power of logic deduction (to use a somewhat extreme, but illustrative example) is likely going to give much more weight to his/her emotional states than to logically deducted evidence in arriving at a choice. Thus, the power of reasoning itself, which varies among people, becomes a causal factor in how the choice turns out. Does this clarification help?molch
August 26, 2010
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KF: I know you're not a fan of SEP, but it does consider whether there could be evidence for libertarian free will - particularly of the agent-causal variety. And it the conclusion does seems quite bleak: "If free will requires agent-causation, and if such a thing is possible, that is another requirement about which we lack evidence. Indeed, it is not clear that there could be any empirical evidence for or against this aspect of agent-causal views". And just at a more common-sense level, if there were conclusive proof of agent-causal libertarianism, then you would expect to find it in the writings of its proponents. But you don't. All you find is the 'evidence from intuition'. But determinists find their theory equally intuitive, so intuition is not particularly conclusive. (E.g. see what I wrote to GP above).Green
August 26, 2010
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molch,
Once we compare two different people, I think we realize that the power to apply reason, the ability to know and apply the laws of reason and logic, and even the concepts of what exactly these laws are, can be fundamentally different between people, and are therefore indeed a causal factor.
"Different" means "causal" by virtue of being different? I'm sorry, this just doesn't follow.Clive Hayden
August 26, 2010
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Onlookers, one word: Japanese. Let us start from such a direct case of real choice and ask whether the grand compatibilist- determinist theories fit it as a fact. If not, they fail. And, plainly, that is the case. Gkairosfocus
August 26, 2010
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Clive:
Would being something other than a human being finally have a claim to libertarian free will? It seems anything ever done, or ever experienced (i.e. mental states etc.), by a human you incorporate into determinism. This is stacking the deck, and I'm not sure that it has any real tenets or anything real to hold onto, for it is looking like it claims the who show of what it means to be human. What is libertarian free will to you then? Is it something you define as non-human?"
You also note:
Apparently Green would have us free of being a human being in order to have free will. There are, of course, things that define a human being, change enough of them and you won't have a human any more. This is stacking the deck in how you define free will and determinism. You cannot rule out humanity from the definition of free will without begging the question, for the issue then becomes definitional, and you're no longer arguing the merits of a foundation we both agree on, but rather Green is arguing from the definition of it, which we do not agree on
Just to be clear, I've been arguing against libertarian free will on here using the definition of an 'agent' that agent-causal libertarians themselves use. So I'm arguing that on their own terms, the theory fails. I have been saying that libertarians (of the agent-causal variety) are not entitled to say that agents ultimately act for 'reasons' or because of their 'feelings' because on a libertarian view of the person, an agent is distinct from all these things. Recall in # 406 that I said they posit that agent's are 'substances' and are something 'over and above' the sum of their inner / mental states. Now to be honest, I have found it very difficult to discern in the writings of agent-causal libertarians exactly what this 'something' is. O'Connor says that this 'something' is a 'substance' and can be thought of in broadly Aristotelian terms to refer to something that endures through time and persists through qualitative change. Since the characteristics of this substance do not change over time, they cannot be things like 'reasons' or 'motivational states' or 'feelings'. In fact, you often hear more from agent-causal libertarians about what this substance is not than what it is. Here are a list of things I could find regarding what the agent-substance is not: - Enduring states of character - Relatively fixed dispositions - Long standing general intentions - Long standing general purposes around which one's life has come to be organised - Motivational states - Reasons O'Connor says that all these things may influence an agent (they "probabilistically structure" the intention the agent will form), but they do not ultimately determine the agent's intention/decision. So I think under his view these inner states are be causal to some degree but that but that the agent-cause is hegemonic. To be honest, though, I can't really get much more out of his writings than that. (To me the 'agent' here seems somewhat akin to an abstract and vacuous label that is only there to prevent one from saying that a person is causally determined by his or her inner states). Anyhow, I hope that has maybe helped clarify some of the points you commented on above. N.b. The list above was taken from: O'Connor, T (2002) Libertarian views: dualist and agent-causal theories, in The Oxford handbook of free will, ed. R. Kane (Oxford, Oxford University Press)Green
August 26, 2010
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Clive @ 606: I think you might be mixing up the two distinct meanings of reason in your reply. 1) a statement offered in explanation or justification 2) the power of comprehending, inferring, or thinking especially I was talking about #1, whereas you seem to be talking about #2 in your post. I somewhat agree with your assessment, that the process (the "reasoning" in sense #2) of summing up the evidence (the "reasons" in sense #1) does not necessarily influence the final balance (the outcome of the choice). But I think that holds only as long as we look at the same person, because their power of reason (in sense #2) is at least mostly stable over time. Once we compare two different people, I think we realize that the power to apply reason, the ability to know and apply the laws of reason and logic, and even the concepts of what exactly these laws are, can be fundamentally different between people, and are therefore indeed a causal factor. I.e., someone who, for whatever reason, does not have the power of logic deduction (to use a somewhat extreme, but illustrative example) is likely going to give much more weight to his/her emotional states than to logically deducted evidence in arriving at a choice. Does that make sense to you?molch
August 26, 2010
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tgpeeler, molch does have a point in your obviously disrespectful attitude, which is not conducive to an effective argument to be received well by molch. I wouldn't like being talked to in such a way either. I think your argument is correct, and I hate to see it undermined by an attitude that turns people off from the outset, onlookers included. So please be more respectful and not so personal or attacking.Clive Hayden
August 26, 2010
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to molch - I figured as much. In the end, you distract, distort, and deny. And worst of all, whine. Best to you.tgpeeler
August 26, 2010
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This:
1) Agential CONTROL ‘simply is’ a matter of agential control
should read:
Agential CAUSATION ‘simply is’ a matter of agential control
Sorry about that.Green
August 26, 2010
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Gpuccio: Thanks again for your detailed response. You sum up the first part by saying:
a) [moral] responsibility is given by the fact that our inner responses (our “intentions”) are not neutral, but can be in harmony with good and morality, or in disharmony with them. b) there is no need of ultimate control of the actions, what is need is only that we control our inner reactions. (Emp. added)
Yes, I agree with (a) and (b); one only needs to be in ultimate control of the inner intention, not necessarily the outer action in order to be morally responsible. Before moving on, I’ll just note than I’m speaking from a libertarian perspective here, though, since as a compatibilist (believing in determinism and moral responsibility) I don’t think you need ‘ultimate’ control in order to be morally responsible. As I’ve noted in a few previous posts, I think there are examples in the bible where God is ultimately in control (even of a person’s inner intention or decision) yet where that person is still morally responsible for it (I can give you verses if you like). But yes, from a libertarian perspective (not a compatibilist perspective), it is reasonable that (b) (namely control of an inner intention) needs to grounded in order for someone to be morally responsible. I said that the libertarian couldn’t get (b) because in order to be in control of an inner intention one needs (i) needs to be the cause of it (one cannot be in control if one is not at least the cause), and (ii) to be in control of it – and the libertarian can’t get you either. Regarding (i), you made a couple of points. You questioned my claim that the agent-causationist is committed to the idea that the agent-cause cannot explain its effect. And you also questioned my claim that a cause needs to explain its effect. So regarding the former, you respond to one of my comments a follows:
Green: The idea that the cause of an event might fail to explain that event, however, seems incoherent. How can positing a specific cause for an effect not also explain that effect? Gpuccio: If the cause is a choice, it does explain. If Joe can choose A or B, both results are possible, and the one which happens will be the result of the choice. What is there to explain beyond that?
I’ll grant you that the cause in question is an agent-choice, but this still does not explain anything. The questioner wants to know why Joe chose A rather than B, but the agent-causationist has no answer to this. Just saying “choice” provides no explanation for the event. If someone asked “why did Joe choose A?”, no-one would accept the answer “because Joe chose A”. All you’re doing is repeating something the questioner already knows. You also say that agent-causation is explanatory in the same way that quantum mechanics is explanatory: it requires the whole “model” in the explanation. All I’ll say here is that quantum theory is not explanatory: it is descriptive. Quauntum theory, whilst possessing astounding predictive power, does not explain any of the phenomena it describes. We currently lack any explanation of quantum events. Take the double-slit experiment for example. In this experiment a photon is fired, but whether it passes through slit A or slit B is indeterminate. In other words, it is consistent with the laws of nature that it to go through either A or B. Imagine that in this experiment, a green light goes on if the photon passes through slit A and a red light when if it passes through slit B. If the green light goes on after firing the photon, do we have any explanation for why the green light goes on? No, there is no explanation. The firing of the photon explains why ONE of the lights went on (since it is a cause of one of the lights going on), but we have no explanation for why the GREEN light specifically went on. Nothing that we know of is causally responsible for why the green light went on. Maybe one day we will discover a hidden variable that is causally responsible for specifying which slit the photon goes through, but until we do, all we have is a description of the phenomena in question, not an explanation. On the other hand, maybe we will never find anything that causes it. But in this case we will not have a case of “causation without explanation” (as in the case of libertarian agent-causation), we’ll simply have a case of “no causation and no explanation”. So QM is not analogous to the agent-causation scenario and it provides no counter example to the idea that there is always a parity between causation and explanation. As I noted above, you also questioned my claim that a cause needs to provide an explanation for its effect. You write:
I don’t accept your assumption that a cause must be “explanatory” to be a cause. That is valid only for the usual deterministic models.
Here I’ll grant that it is not axiomatic that there ought to a parity between causation and explanation i.e. that a cause ought to explain its effect. But I do think that we need a compelling reason to think that this is not the case. In other words, the libertarian needs to do more than just say ‘it’s not axiomatic’; they need to provide some positive reasons to abandon the idea. I hope I’ve understood you correctly here, but I basically discerned one positive reason for why we ought to think that this parity doesn’t hold: 1) The benefits of abandoning the idea are a compelling enough reason to abandon it. These benefits include being able to explain the way we experience ourselves, and being able to explain moral responsibility. Specifically, you write:
Well, the reasons are compelling: the free will model is the only one which explains the way we experience ourselves, including moral responsibility.
I’ll address the moral responsibility aspect in a second, but regarding libertarian free will being the only model that is able to explain the way we experience ourselves, I’m really not convinced. This is because I find the determinist definition of freedom (being able to do otherwise if we want to) much more in line with my intuitions. I find it very hard to believe that I could act in a way that went against all of my beliefs, desires, motivations, and so forth. Yet if libertarian free will is true, then such a situation is possible. (I know you say that one can only choose otherwise within a given range, but recall that the libertarian agent is distinct from his or her mental states, and that mental states only influence, they do not determine a decision. This means that theoretically, the agent could act against all her mental states, even if it doesn’t mean acting in absolutely any way possible). I think experience teaches the opposite; namely that we can only act according to our character, or our inner mental states. Think of Martin Luther’s claim as he stood before the Catholic Church. He declared: “Here I stand, I can do no other”. I find it very plausible that given the state of his conscience at the time, along with his convictions and moral values, it was impossible for him to choose otherwise. Now I can’t prove this, and maybe it was possible for him to do otherwise. But I think the idea that it wasn’t fits very well with our intuitive experience of acting as agents. The idea that we ultimately act for no reason at all is also profoundly counter-intuitive. I’ve talked about why libertarian freedom entails this and summarised what I’ve discerned to be the libertarian response to this in previous posts (e.g. see post # 388) so I won’t repeat it again here (I also address your most recent response to this near the end). A quote from Spinoza might help summarise my thinking though. Spinoza thinks that men only believe in libertarian free will because they are ignorant of the complete causal chains that account for their actions. He writes: “men think themselves free, because they are conscious of their volitions and their appetite, and do not think, even in their wildest dreams, of the causes by which they are disposed to wanting and willing, because they are ignorant of [those causes]”. So in summary, I don’t think the libertarian account of freedom where we are able to do otherwise in an absolutely unconditional sense does give us a good account of our experience, and thus there is no reason to reject my parity thesis on this account. With regards to specific aspect of what it explains about ourself, you said it explains the way we experience moral responsibility (to quote: it “explains the way we experience ourselves, including moral responsibility”). By ‘explain’ in this context, do you mean ‘it provides a philosophical explanation for moral responsibility’? If so, then you can’t really use this as justification here, since to do so would be to include your conclusion as a premise in your argument. Recall that one of the reasons I’m saying libertarianism can’t ground moral responsibility is because libertarianism can’t ground agential control.One of the necessary conditions for agential control is causation, and there are always seems to be a parity between causation and explanation. Libertarianism denies this and so the libertarian needs to give reasons for denying this. They can’t simply say ‘it explains moral responsibility if we deny it’ – because moral responsibility is the very thing in need of explanation. (N.b. please correct me if this is not the sense in which you intended the word ‘explain’ in this context). So, for a summary so far: it seems that in response to my first objection, the libertarian is still left only saying ‘well, the parity between explanation and causation is not axiomatic’. That’s fine, I can concede that. But to deny the truth of this notion requires some compelling reason, and there just doesn’t seem to be one. Onto my second objection. I said that agent-causation is not equivalent to agential-control, and so even if a justification of agent-causation could be given (which as I argued above, hasn’t been done), the agent-causal libertarian would still have to give an account of agential control . In non-libertarian accounts, agential control is justified by saying that the agent acts for conscious reasons, but the libertarian doesn’t have this option. You said two things in response to this. Firstly: 1) Agential control ‘simply is’ a matter of agential control 2) Furthermore, agent-causationists don’t posit agents that ultimately act for no reason at all: inner responses are ultimately made acording to intuitive feelings. Regarding (2), you write:
I have said many times that agents choose among possible inner responses according to the intuitive feeling of the self of the moral value of those responses. This is not “no reason at all”. It is not, however, a purely cognitive and detached rational evaluation, which would have no moral value. It is a choice which comes form the innermost core of the self, where the distinction between cognition and feeling is impossible. But to describe that process as “acting for no reason at all” is no appropriate way of dealing with that.
Firstly, as the thought experiment with Joe illustrated, libertarian agents ultimately do act for no reason at all. There was no reason why Joe chose A and not B. You seem to be responding by saying, ‘yes he does; he acts according to an intuitive feeling’. But the libertarian is not entitled to say this. Feelings, according to the agent causationist, do not determine the agent’s decision. Feelings, as you say, are akin to reasons, and in any agent-causation scenario any changing property is distinct from the agent. Feelings, like all reasons, do not determine the agent’s decision in your scenario: the agent determines it. The agent may have feelings and reasons that it acts in light of, but why the agent chooses to act in accordance with one set of feelings and reasons but not another set of reasons and feelings has no explanation in your scenario. There is no reason why one course of action is chosen over another. Which is why the agent in your scenario ultimately acts for no reason. Regarding (1), yes, I think this is all the agent-causationists can ultimately say. In summary, though, I don’t find “it just does” and “it just is” convincing answers to how libertarianism can ground moral responsibility. [N.b. I intended to talk more about the ‘self’ in our two views as I thought that was the crux of the issue, but I started writing this and it no longer seemed pertinent. But I’ll maybe make some more comments on that later, as I think there are still some unanswered questions on here with regards to the self and our intuition. Anyhow, the main point to take away from the above is that there still doesn’t seem to be any account of how libertarianism can ground moral responsibility.]Green
August 26, 2010
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PPS: This, from Wiki, on how ants are affected by the scents, is quite revealing on the difference between ants as social insects and humans: ______________ >> Ants use pheromones for more than just making trails. A crushed ant emits an alarm pheromone that sends nearby ants into an attack frenzy and attracts more ants from further away. Several ant species even use "propaganda pheromones" to confuse enemy ants and make them fight among themselves.[60] Pheromones are produced by a wide range of structures including Dufour's glands, poison glands and glands on the hindgut, pygidium, rectum, sternum and hind tibia.[56] Pheromones are also exchanged mixed with food and passed by trophallaxis, transferring information within the colony.[61] This allows other ants to detect what task group (e.g., foraging or nest maintenance) other colony members belong to.[62] In ant species with queen castes, workers begin to raise new queens in the colony when the dominant queen stops producing a specific pheromone . . . >> _______________ In other words, the scents are essentially signalling and control mechanisms that trigger impulses, rather than symbolic utterances that allow evaluation and response. (Even the case of "learning" of individual ants and groups fits with a conditioning rather than a cognitive model.)kairosfocus
August 26, 2010
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Onlookers: The above evasive exchange underscores the true balance of the situation on the merits. In order for M to communicate in context, he has had to select symbols [glyphs] from an arbitrary alphabet, using representations of equally arbitrary sounds, and to compose a message according to the symbol-set and rules of English, also being contextually responsive evasive to the subject at issue. He chose to do so by comparing symbolic, arbitrary-element based digital communication with pheromone scent-trails [intensity and direction of travel] and bee dances [sun-angle and distance analogues], which are analogue, and plainly genetically programmed. [Where did the information for those programs come from, BTW?] I particularly observe how the case of Japanese writing, which integrates four or five (or more) symbol systems in the same context [up to over 10 bits per symbol!], was ducked. This, in a context where just one case in point of a credibly significantly free act is enough to bring the determinist-compatibilist house of cards to the ground. So, let me excerpt that hostile witness, Wiki:
Choice Japanese mainly use hiragana or kanji, while katakana is used to transliterate a foreign word to Japanese characters. The choice of which type of writing to use depends on a number of factors, including standard conventions, readability, and stylistic choices. Some Japanese words are written with different kanji depending on the specific usage of the word—for instance, the word naosu (to fix, or to cure) is written ?? when it refers to curing a person, and ?? when it refers to fixing an object. Script usage also reflects grammaticalisation. Japanese has many compound verbs, as in "go and ask" (?????, ittekiku?), and, as indicated above, in Japanese orthography lexical items are generally written with kanji (here ?? and ??), while grammatical items are written with hiragana (as in the connecting ?). Compound verbs are thus generally written with a kanji for each constituent verb, but some suffixes have become grammaticalized, and are written in hiragana, such as "try out, see" (???, -miru?), from "see" (??, miru?), as in "try eating [it] and see" (?????, tabetemiru?).
In short, the "we are programmed to delusively think we are free" model is plainly factually inadequate, and is self-referentially incoherent as well. For, just to argue for the pre-programed model -- contrast a bee dancing at a given angle tot he current sun-direction and for a waggle duration proportional to the time-to-target at standard flight rate with our symbolisation of this in diagrams vs. in written text! -- requires the use of language in argument, both of which are premised on our being sufficiently free to choose and to follow evidence. And, if we are so deluded that the first perceived facts of our existence as unified, conscious, thinking, enconscienced creatures are misleading, then we would have no reason for confidence in any further conscious experience. The slow-motion shipwreck of the compatibilist case above -- over several hundred posts -- has been a lesson in what has gone wrong with our civilisation. The root-problem is plainly spiritual. Paul aptly summed up the mess:
Eph 4: 17 . . . I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more. 20You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Instead, let us turn from the fallacy of the ideologised, closed, and fact-evasive mind [determinism here, sadly but plainly, being closed-mindedness on steroids, converted into a system of the world . . . ], and open our minds to the evidence that stares us in the face from even the basic experience of posting in this thread. GEM of TKI PS: It is a pity to learn the above on Nakashima-san. One hopes there will be an opportunity for him to learn from a time-out and return someday.kairosfocus
August 26, 2010
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molch: I absolutely reciprocate. Confrontation and clarification of reciprocal views is really, IMO, the highest purpose of discussion and debate. I don't believe in changing others' minds, but I treasure understanding them realistically, and being realistically understood by them.gpuccio
August 26, 2010
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gpuccio @ 605: "Random events do have rules, which are the rules of probability, a complex mathemathical science." Contrary to your assumption, I am very well aware of the mathematical concept of randomness. However, I did not expect you to use the mathematical meaning of random in your philosophical statement that "choices are neither random nor without value", because it simply results in the trivial reiteration of your earlier premise that choices are not determined. Which is fine, but doesn't add anything to the discussion, in my view. I disagree with many points in your post, but I think I have a clear picture of the whys and hows of our positions and disagreements now. And I can certainly agree with this assessment of your position: "I have never said that it has to follow logically. I think that I have repeated many times that my model, like most general philosophical models, is not logically deducted, but rather assumed for a lot of different reasons, mainly intuitions about our inner nature." In that spirit, I appreciate your sincerity and dedication, and want to thank you for an insightful discussion!molch
August 25, 2010
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