Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Intelligent design requires evidence: Ah, but what can be considered evidence?

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Recently, an ID-friendly scientist assured me that intelligent design would easily be accepted if only the ID guys would come up with evidence. To my mind, that shows the difficulty people have in understanding what is at stake: the very question of what may count as evidence. Here is how I replied:   
Bench science, like book editing, is independent of content under normal circumstances.

But as Thomas Kuhn points out in Structure of Scientific Revolutions, paradigms determine what counts as evidence.

Mark what follows:

If materialism is assumed to be true and Darwinism is the creation story of materialism, then Darwinism is the best available explanation for the history of life.

So Darwinism is treated as true.

I am NOT saying that that follows logically.

Materialism could be true but its orthodox creation story could be untrue at the same time. Some other materialist story could better account for the evidence, for example.

However, most people do not think that way. (I am describing a course of mental events here, not a logical argument.)

Because Darwinism is treated as true, questioning it is irrational or malign.

If you are a scientist, it is no defence to say that you have uncovered evidence against Darwinism. That makes you a heretic.

Don’t try claiming that you do science better without Darwinism. If you don’t believe it, you shouldn’t be doing science at all, right?

The purpose of science is to uncover the evidence for materialism, and you may as well deny Genesis in a God-fearing chapel as deny Darwinism at the Smithsonian.

You could outperform all your colleagues in research and accomplish nothing except get yourself denied tenure.

What if a theory that clashes with Darwinism better explains changes over time (and even makes verified predictions)?

Well, here’s where the importance of a materialist paradigm comes in: Any explanation that conforms to Darwinism will be preferred to any explanation that does not conform to it – irrespective of a difference in explanatory power that favours the latter.

In the research for the neuroscience book for which I am Montreal neuroscientist Mario Beauregard’s co-author (The Spiritual Brain, Harper, March 2007), I found that really inane and unsatisfactory explanations for various mental states were preferred if they supported the materialist paradigm, over against better explanations that didn’t particularly support it. Sometimes it was ludicrous. But always it was deadly serious.

Kuhn’s Structure is a very useful book to read, for understanding how paradigms determine what can even be considered as evidence.

Thus, in my humble opinion, evidence that supports an ID perspective will be primarily useful to the ID scientists themselves in understanding their own view of the world.

It will be useless for making any general point against the materialist paradigm. ID-friendly evidence will merely be shelved as a problem to be solved or reinterpreted along materialist lines, no matter how flimsy.

So yes, by all means, ID guys, find evidence - but mainly to educate yourself and sketch out your own theory. The more evidence you find, the more unwelcome you will be elsewhere.

ID biochemist Mike Behe was compared to Osama bin Laden in Biology and Philosophy (2003), and that wasn’t because he was thought to be a crank. One doesn’t compare a crank to Osama bin Laden.

Note: bin laden? Yes … here’s the note from By Design or by Chance? “Tamler Sommers and Alex Rosenberg explain in “Darwin’s nihilistic idea: evolution and the meaninglessless of life,” Biology and Philosophy 18: 653–668, 2003 http://www.kluweronline.com/issn/0169-3867 that “Stalin or Osama bin Laden, or Michael Behe, or your favourite villain, is also “an utterly idiosyncratic structure …” The message of the article is that Darwinism requires nihilism. It’s not clear just how these folks understand the nihilism but the grouping of names is unsettling.”
  
After I posted this item to the Post-Darwinist, a commenter kindly noted the following:

At Saturday, October 28, 2006 6:57:24 PM, Jim Sherwood said…

It seems that Michael Behe has done excellent scientific research. He has been listed in American Men and Women of Science, the century-old biographical dictionary of “leaders” in American science, since the edition published in 1994: for 12 years. He is cited for research in the structure of DNA, among other things, in AMWS. He was first listed at the relatively young age of 42.

Since biologist Jerry Coyne has attacked Behe in The New Republic as somehow a “third-rate biologist,” it seems strange that Coyne has never been listed in AMWS. And Coyne published his Ph.D thesis in 1978, so he can’t be much younger than Behe, who is 54 and published his thesis in the same year.

Perhaps Coyne will get better “reviews” from his “peers” as a scientist if he writes enough articles in nonscientific magazines attacking intelligent design theory? Who knows?

Well, yes, Jim, but if I were a Darwinist just now, I would prefer to attack ID than defend Darwinism. Lots of chuckleheads would applaud me for attacking ID even if I wasn’t making any sense at all, but defending Darwinian evolution is currently hard work and slim pickings. You know the sort of thing: Black squirrels survive in Washington, D.C., just as they do in Toronto. Galapagos finches fatten their beaks, or else they thin them, depending on the season. The human race is supposedly dividing  into clever gods vs. moronic dwarfs, though this has never happened before for tens of thousands of years. 

All I ever say about any of this is, no wonder there is an intelligent design controversy and it does not go away! 

 

Comments
joseph: "However from what we do know DNA does NOT make an organism what it is. IOW we know that although genes may influence every aspect of development they do NOT determine it." Yes, DNA doesn't determine everything about an organism, but I don't see how that does anything to further your point. And yes, shared DNA sequences could be indicative of common design, but when those shared DNAs are, for example, insertions of Herpes B Viruses, your position becomes increasingly difficult to maintain with a straight face. Like I indicated in my earlier post, demonstration of common decent does not rule out certain design hypotheses, but your idea that there are no types of experiments that could corroborate evolution of species X and Y from a common ancestor--by whatever mechanism, design or chance--is simply not true.great_ape
October 29, 2006
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DaveScot: When a snowflake is first observed it looks designed for what? If there’s no answer to that then it doesn’t look designed to an engineer unless it’s obviously artificial in nature. Which, of course, begs the question as to, who, or how, one is to determine if there is a "what." There are plenty of for "what's" behind a snowflake. Life on earth would be a heck of a lot different if snowflakes weren't "designed" the way they are. So, are they designed, or not?frisbee
October 29, 2006
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If ID accepts common descent and if it accepts modification over time, then it really does accept evolution; it should own up to that. Again, a point is being missed. This is not about politics. Common descent and modification over time are irrelevant to ID. You can believe in those things and still be an IDer. You can disbelieve and still be an IDer. And why should you expect a true scientist to be swayed by a PR stunt like, well, changing a name? Evidence and arguments should be addressed on merit alone.tribune7
October 29, 2006
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What ID advocates need to do is drop the name. If ID accepts common descent and if it accepts modification over time, then it really does accept evolution; it should own up to that. If it is serious about getting accepted in the scientific community, it needs to stop the PR campaigning, stop writing books, and stop painting itself as anti-evolution. It needs to start, as many people said, doing research. It shouldn't worry about alienating the creationists and pseudo-creationists and should get down and dirty publishing papers without the word design or intelligent. It is not uncommon for researchers to publish alternative interpretations of data that other groups have generated, however they usually must have some original data that further supports their hypothesis and contradicts the previous hypothesis (but not the actual data). It happens all the time. Behe tried to do it with Snoke. I don't think he was very successful, but that's the kind of stuff that needs to be done. The problem is that IDers complain about the Church of Darwin, etc. But from the perspective of scientists, this is a very well established theory. If you are going to contradict it, you better have the pedigree. And that isn't arrogance or an appeal to authority; it's how things get done. It's very difficult to overhaul a widely accepted theory but it's a lot easier if you aren't attacking it from the outside. And it will take time, like fifty years before you can reasonably expect to see anything in a grade school biology textbook. Another piece of advice: keep it out of the schools and out of the op-ed pages. If this is truly a scientific endeavor, it does not belong on the editorial page of the New York Times. The urgency by which ID advocates are trying to act and the forum with which they present their work (debates, books, editorials) does not impress scientists in the least.mjb2001
October 29, 2006
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Joseph Designs have purpose. When a snowflake is first observed it looks designed for what? If there's no answer to that then it doesn't look designed to an engineer unless it's obviously artificial in nature. Ice isn't artificial. If it was fired ceramic or hammered copper then it would have a compelling appearance of a designed work of art with no other knowledge about it. Otherwise, it's just an ice crystal with esthetically pleasing symmetry. Lots of crystals of natural occurring substances have pleasing symmetries. Engineers and anyone else expected to be familiar with how crystals form (which I would think should include every physical or life scientist in the world) and what they look like would not say a snowflake looks designed. If you want to include young children and people who flunked 8th grade physical science then I guess they probably would see design in a snowflake. I try to weed out the latter two groups from the discussion here.DaveScot
October 29, 2006
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Using the existence of designed machines as an analog of intentional design in nature is not justified until machines start having babies
Does this mean that if scientists were to build a machine capable of reproducing itself and launch it into space and if aliens were to find it, that they would not be justified in believing it to be designed?crandaddy
October 29, 2006
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Naturalistic Evolution is hypethetico-deductive. (this is true of nearly all endeavors qualifying as scientific). That means it has has attendant deductive consequences that must be true in order for the hypothesis to be true. (note, this does not mean the hypothesis is true if the deductive consequences are satisfied, only that is is not yet false.) Evolutionary theory has many deductive consequences that must all simultaneously be true. Not only consequences that were known at the time, but every one that has come to light since. For Evolutionary theory to be true: all reproductively isolated populations must diverge over time. Continental drift was undreamt of in Darwin's time. In order for evolutionary theory to be true, all separated populations in all land masses once joined must diverge over time. The Earth must be very old. (Which, BTW, raised at the time a real problem with scientifically accepted notions of the Earth's age.) Inheritance must be particulate, not blended. The number of genetic differences between organisms sharing a common ancestor must be consistent with the time since they diverged. There are many others, but this list of examples suffices. In contrast, ID, has not one binding deductive consequence. It is utterly silent on anything but definitions, which don't constitute a hypothesis. Until ID figures out how to arrive at deductive consequences, it is difficult to imagine how any research is even possible. #2 Joseph: What predictions does ID make? Counterflow, CSI, IC, to name a few. Those are definitions, not predictions. It is also worth noting that those definitions are conclusions from ignorance. Back in the 80s, the exact parallel to IC was used to refute evolutionary theory: wings must have been intelligently designed, because there is absolutely no use for half a wing. Good point. However, it was based on complete ignorance of how wings came to be. Understandable, as, at the time, no on knew. Until fossils from the Gobi desert were unearthed. ID no longer speaks of this. #17 DaveScot: Machines are designed. Snowflakes are merely repetitive crystal patterns. They look pleasing, not designed. Anyone who thinks a snowflake looks designed has no understanding of engineering or design. Using the existence of designed machines as an analog of intentional design in nature is not justified until machines start having babies. BTW, I found all of ScaryFacts posts here to be completely respectful, and pertinent. Your barring him based on what he does on his own blog (and which may reflect some very unfortunate experiences) strikes me as completely unnecessary.frisbee
October 29, 2006
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Regarding common descent: I do think that it's time for ID to clarify some issues like common descent. I understand the reasons as to why that is difficult. I think that stronger statements from ID leaders regarding ID being entirely consistent with common descent would be wise. That would set the stage for a clearer statement of what ID opposes-the idea that the development of life on this planet has been a matter of chance. In other words, get to what ID's essential nature has always been about-metaphysics In my past lurking, I think that DaveScot has spoken quite strongly regarding the need to hold forth about common descent as the reality. I agree. There is understandable and willfull misconception about ID. Whatever can help clear up these misconceptions is advisable, IMHO.bj
October 29, 2006
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Evidence? huh.....well, show me the Designer!! (Peter Ward)Mats
October 29, 2006
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Joseph wrote:
You mean like this: a href=http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=90&isFellow=true>Scott Minnich
Biochemist Michael Behe used the flagella to illustrate the concept of irreducible complexity and Minnich takes the argument to the next level crediting the design paradigm to leading to new insights in his lab research at the University of Idaho.
That Minnich thinks he has gained valuable insight into the function of the flagellum as a consequence of ID is not insignificant. However, its now up to him to turn his ideas into an active ID based research program. I am familiar with Minnich and his work, his work may have ID implications, but thus far I wouldn't describe any of his peer reviewed work as 'written from an ID based perspective.' Which of Minnich's papers do you think qualify as ID based research?mattison0922
October 29, 2006
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Joseph wrote:
mattison0922 brings up a point in comment #7 but it should be noted that evolutionism doesn’t have what he sez ID should present.
Joseph, what in the world do you mean by this? I looked back over my post, I don't see where I claimed 'evolutionism' had something that ID doesn't, unless you're counting an active wet reasearch program in that assessment. In any case, the ID movement doesn't have an active (visible) research program, whereas ToE does. Could you please clarify what you're saying. This isn't to say that the ID movement couldn't have an active bench research program, just that they don't. From what I can tell, your statement implies that the ToE doesn't have an active research program. Surely you can't be serious.
And I truly think that once people realize the materialistic alternative to ID is sheer-dumb-luck, they will see that the data is best explained by ID.
Is this the only alternative though? And more importantly, is ToE necessarily dependent on sheer dumb luck? Certainly the gradualist, Darwinist tenets do rely on sheer dumb luck as you state, but there are lots of different ideas out there. James Shapiro's work suggests that evolution is dependent not on sheer dumb luck, but is a coordinated biochemical process, that responds not only to DNA damage, but in fact is responsive to the environment itself. The natural genetic engineering mechanisms described by Shapiro, argue against random genetic change, at the levels of timing, location in the genome, and varieties of changes at least. This work by Shapiro represents another good 'jumping off point' for the commencement of ID based research. Note: Shapiro is not a supporter of ID.
And seeing that evolutionism is nothing more than speculations based on the assumption one must wonder what it took to “convince” scientists of its merits?
I'm all for scientific freedom, and I think the ID movement should be free to pursue whatever hypotheses they conjure, without fear of any type of retribution. However, I'm also for accurately representing both sides of the story. Statements like the above tend to make me cringe. For example, ToE isn't "speculation based on assumption," and to describe it as such seems to be deliberate misrepresentation. ToE certainly is inference based on observation, which IMO, is distinct from 'speculation based on assumption.' And with respect to why so many scientists believe it: because they think the evidence implies this. This brings up an important point. What is it that ID seems to fighting against? It's not common descent. ID's biggest problem seems to be with the suggested random nature of genetic change and biological variation. Behe and WmAD have both expressed varying degrees of support for the idea of common descent. So evolution, doesn't seem to be the problem. The heart of the problem seems to be related to the 'sheer dumb luck' scenario you describe. If there were an alternative to this idea (there is), if there were some mechanism that accounted for biological complexity and diversity without the appeal to sheer dumb luck, would you be any more likely to support ToE and the inferences it has made?mattison0922
October 29, 2006
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Mattison922: ID has engaged in enough meta analyses for now. They need to start doing research, irrespective of whether or not the critics think it will be success ful. You mean like this: a href=http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=90&isFellow=true>Scott Minnich
Biochemist Michael Behe used the flagella to illustrate the concept of irreducible complexity and Minnich takes the argument to the next level crediting the design paradigm to leading to new insights in his lab research at the University of Idaho.
Joseph
October 29, 2006
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ScaryFacts is no longer with us. After looking at his blog I determined that he isn't the kind of person that belongs in our community.DaveScot
October 29, 2006
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Playing 'devil's advocate' I would say that initially, when a snowflake is first observed, one might see the pattern as evidence for design. IOW one's initial inference may be snowflakes are designed but further investigation, if conducted properly (key point), would demonstrate that snowflakes are the simple result of environmental conditions. IOW chance and necessity are all that is required to explain snowflakes. And as for "measuring design", I would use counterflow. How much is present and in what form does it take? > a simple whittling of a stick compared to Stonehenge; Nasca figures compared to the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel; simple tools for digging, chopping, etc. compared to the advanced technological tools of today.Joseph
October 29, 2006
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greatape wrote:
Yes, but these types of experiments require very specific ID-based hypotheses targeting specific systems. It is difficult for me to imagine “wet-bench” experimental scenarios where one outcome or another would support ID over evolution or vice versa.
Yes, they would require ID based hypotheses; I thought that was clear in my first post. In any case, I can think of plenty of experiments that would generate quantifiable data in the context of differential predictions that would support either an ID based or evolution based hypothesis. The experiments can be done, I've thought pretty extensively about this.
Sure, you could remove a chunk of an IC-system and demonstrate it doesn’t work anymore. But I could also extract the heart from a monkey, and the monkey wouldn’t work anymore either. That would do little to convince anyone (not already convinced) that the monkey didn’t evolve. You would have to demonstrate that there was no *possible* evolutionary path that could been taken to achieve the IC system. Convincing folks that you’ve done this within your wet-bench framework would be very difficult if not impossible.
The experiments you propose rely on something not happening, and are thus not really 'experiments.' You don't prove something with a negative. Experiments such as those you've proposed shouldn't convince you or anyone else for that matter, of the legitimacy of ID.
And aside from this IC-scenario, I’m having trouble imagining any other types of experiments. You could take the approach of detecting specific engineering principles employed in life, but it becomes a largely theortetical argument as to whether or not darwinian evolution might exhibit those same patterns.
IC is a perfectly legitimate place to begin investigation. There are many other experiments that could be performed, besides 'knocking out' a portion of an IC system. IC is a perfectly reasonable place to begin research. In terms of what the data will say... we won't know this until the experiments have been done. Stating the experiments won't work before they've been done is somewhat myopic, don't you think?
I think ultimately ID would have to find some type of smoking gun, perhaps a kind of meta-information in genomes
It hasn't persuaded a large majority of scientists thus far, why assume that meta analysis will somehow gain legitimacy? ID has engaged in enough meta analyses for now. They need to start doing research, irrespective of whether or not the critics think it will be success ful. Remember Darwin's idea was labeled an untestable pseudoscience for some time after it was proposed.
I would be interested in hearing any specific experiments people have in mind, as well as their reasoning behind the experiment.
I've done this many times... not here, but in the ARN, and other forums.mattison0922
October 29, 2006
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SF, wha you asked was What predictions is ID making? What experiments are being conducted to demonstrate the veracity of those predictions? My response was That biological complexities exist that cannot be reduced consistent with evolutionalry theory. You answered with the challenge Define what level of complexity cannot be explained by evolutionary theory–because that is the issue. I don't think you have been following this debate very closely. IC is well defined -- that constituent parts of a biological structure would be useless before their current state. Predications have been made -- that the flagellum and blood clotting cascade could not be reduced -- and attempts have been made to falsify them hence pretty much establishing IC's scientific merit. The success of those attempts remains hotly debated. What is the definition, mathmetically, of IC or CSI? I could challenge you to give me a mathematical definition of descent via RM-NS and you would have literally infinitely less luck. A primer on probability for Design Inference It has to be more than simply “it looks designed”. Snowflakes look designed, yet they are a natural formation. Again, you have not been following this debatetribune7
October 29, 2006
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ScaryFacts How do you measure design? One way would be to first measure "chance" then take the reciprocal to get the design metric. If you understand that then you understand why the chance hypothesis of evolution is (at the least) not superior to the design hypothesis.DaveScot
October 29, 2006
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ScaryFacts Snowflakes don't look designed. They are not assemblages of interdependent parts that perform a function. Machines are designed. Snowflakes are merely repetitive crystal patterns. They look pleasing, not designed. Anyone who thinks a snowflake looks designed has no understanding of engineering or design.DaveScot
October 29, 2006
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mattison0922 brings up a point in comment #7 but it should be noted that evolutionism doesn't have what he sez ID should present. And I truly think that once people realize the materialistic alternative to ID is sheer-dumb-luck, they will see that the data is best explained by ID. Sheer-dumb-luck is a science stopper whereas ID offers many investigative possibilities. And seeing that evolutionism is nothing more than speculations based on the assumption one must wonder what it took to "convince" scientists of its merits?Joseph
October 29, 2006
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CSI and IC have both been defined. CSI is defined as a minimum of 500 bits of information- note Shannon information need not apply (Shannon did NOT care about content nor meaning, whereas CSI is all about contenet and meaning). As for IC from "No Free Lunch": IC- A system performing a given basic function is irreducibly complex if it includes a set of well-matched, mutually interacting, non-arbitrarily individuated parts such that each part in the set is indispensable to maintaining the system’s basic, and therefore original, function. The set of these indispensable parts is known as the irreducible core of the system. Numerous and Diverse Parts If the irreducible core of an IC system consists of one or only a few parts, there may be no insuperable obstacle to the Darwinian mechanism explaining how that system arose in one fell swoop. But as the number of indispensable well-fitted, mutually interacting,, non-arbitrarily individuated parts increases in number & diversity, there is no possibility of the Darwinian mechanism achieving that system in one fell swoop. Minimal Complexity and Function Given an IC system with numerous & diverse parts in its core, the Darwinian mechanism must produce it gradually. But if the system needs to operate at a certain minimal level of function before it can be of any use to the organism & if to achieve that level of function it requires a certain minimal level of complexity already possessed by the irreducible core, the Darwinian mechanism has no functional intermediates to exploit. And we can use the following to initially infer design: The criteria for inferring design from the microscopic biological evidence is as Michael J. Behe, Professor of Biochemistry at Leheigh University, puts it in his book Darwin 's Black Box: "Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components " (emphasis added) Then we have counterflow: Counterflow refers to things running contrary to what, in the relevant sense, would (or might) have resulted or occurred had nature operated freely.Joseph
October 29, 2006
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great ape: This certainly falls back on the “paradigm dictates evidence” issue raised by O’leary, but, in my mind, we do have experiments showing that a population of cetaceans could evolve from a population of hooved animals. That is the ONLY place such "experiments" reside- in your mind. great ape: They are “experiments” involving examining DNA sequences, with the evolutionary scenario generating specific hypotheses about what to expect or not to expect when the sequences of various taxa are examined. DNA sequences can also be experimental evidence for a common design. great ape: The best we can achieve are these sort of circumstantial evidence arguments. Circumstantial evidence based on a speculative assumption. However from what we do know DNA does NOT make an organism what it is. IOW we know that although genes may influence every aspect of development they do NOT determine it.Joseph
October 29, 2006
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kairos, That wasn't meant to be a swipe at ID, just an observation. Until there are quantitative measures for the terms I do not see how anyone can design experiments to support the ideas behind ID. "This is designed." How does one know? How do you measure design? Complex structures arise in nature all the time--are they designed? Are they the result of natural process? My point is this: until there are experiments, then ID is a matter of faith.ScaryFacts
October 29, 2006
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"And that leaves ID as a matter of “faith”–”I believe that complex systems cannot arise from RM+NS”–rather than a demonstratable science." Very comic. Let me state more correctly: ”I believe that complex systems can arise from RM+NS”–rather than a demonstratable science"kairos
October 29, 2006
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idnet.com.au: "we refer to as Specified Complexity, CSI or Irreducible Complexity" How are these terms defined? Other than their somewhat amorphous use, how are these quantified? Without a quantitative definition there can be no experimentation. And that leaves ID as a matter of "faith"--"I believe that complex systems cannot arise from RM+NS"--rather than a demonstratable science.ScaryFacts
October 29, 2006
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One problem in determining design in nature is the fact that ALL OF NATURE is designed. Francis Collins believes that the universe is designed to have the essential properties to sustain life. This is the big picture or background design. This design happens before the big bang. It is much more acceptable and is referred to as small i small d. Big I big D is the idea that the small id does not generate what we find in biology. Some things we observe in the universe look complicated to us like snow flakes, or fractils, but they are really the result of small id simple rules. Life is not like that. We do not get anything like integrated closely specified systems from small id. Biology is full of these integrated systems that we refer to as Specified Complexity, CSI or Irreducible Complexity. Materialistic science accepts the id rules as givens but they also believe AS A GIVEN that there are not any more complex inputs needed to generate biological information and complexity. They have not demonstrated that to our satisfaction. Dawkins has done some magician's tricks but we can all see right through them. By the way, common descent is not anti ID. It is not essential to ID that species be generated ex nihlo. It is the non random purposeful external and intelligent arrangement of molecules that makes ID different.idnet.com.au
October 28, 2006
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mattison0922: "However, the time for shaking cultures, spinning centrifuges, pouring columns, and running gels is rapidly supplanting pounding the keyboard - or at least it should be." Yes, but these types of experiments require very specific ID-based hypotheses targeting specific systems. It is difficult for me to imagine "wet-bench" experimental scenarios where one outcome or another would support ID over evolution or vice versa. Sure, you could remove a chunk of an IC-system and demonstrate it doesn't work anymore. But I could also extract the heart from a monkey, and the monkey wouldn't work anymore either. That would do little to convince anyone (not already convinced) that the monkey didn't evolve. You would have to demonstrate that there was no *possible* evolutionary path that could been taken to achieve the IC system. Convincing folks that you've done this within your wet-bench framework would be very difficult if not impossible. And aside from this IC-scenario, I'm having trouble imagining any other types of experiments. You could take the approach of detecting specific engineering principles employed in life, but it becomes a largely theortetical argument as to whether or not darwinian evolution might exhibit those same patterns. I think ultimately ID would have to find some type of smoking gun, perhaps a kind of meta-information in genomes that clearly entails a plan which extends well beyond the current organism...maybe even detailing a future unfurling of evolution. Such a plan could not "evolve" because evolution, as we understand it, does not entail such forethought. I would be interested in hearing any specific experiments people have in mind, as well as their reasoning behind the experiment. Ultimately, mattison is right about what it will take to change people's minds; vague indications about life "appearing like a computer program" or junk dna "turning out to have a function" wield very little weight in scientific circles. Scientific types want detailed hypotheses about specific biological systems , as well as the necessary empirical experiments/observations to assess them.great_ape
October 28, 2006
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While scientific data itself is not generally subjective, their interpretataion - what they are 'evidence' of is an entirely different matter. Hence what constitutes 'evidence' in support of ID is an entirely subjective matter, based on individual perceptions, presuppositions, and prejudices. However, that being said, the logical step for the ID community is to commence some sort of 'wet' research program. This will facilitate the construction of ID based experiments with their own set of ID based predictions. This type of 'evidence' is largely what the science community is looking for. The degree of 'evidence' required to sway any individual one way or the other is again, likely to be a subjective matter. I would imagine that Ken Miller would require less 'evidence' than say Dawkins. While we're on the topic, it's worth mentioning that without an active (read: visible) research program that generates independent 'evidence,' the ID community is doomed to being viewed as science-based apologetics at best, and pseudoscientific rubbish at worst, by a large part of the reseach community. Certainly the type of 'meta-analyses' that have been performed to construct ID tenets (IC, CSI, etc.) were essential. However, the time for shaking cultures, spinning centrifuges, pouring columns, and running gels is rapidly supplanting pounding the keyboard - or at least it should be. As has already been mentioned in this discussion, tenets of ID are certainly capable of being tested. Hell, my post-doc will be up soon... if someone wants to put me up in a lab, I can run the experiments myself. I've got lots of experience with a system I would imagine qualifies as IC - the ATP synthase. In terms of what would constitute adequate or sufficient evidence to legitimize ID as science in the mind of the 'average' scientist, there's really only one way to find out... start laying it out in front them.mattison0922
October 28, 2006
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trinbune7 wrote ''That biological complexities exist that cannot be reduced consistent with evolutionalry theory" Define what level of complexity cannot be explained by evolutionary theory--because that is the issue. What is the definition, mathmetically, of IC or CSI? It has to be more than simply "it looks designed". Snowflakes look designed, yet they are a natural formation.ScaryFacts
October 28, 2006
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SF--What predictions is ID making? That biological complexities exist that cannot be reduced consistent with evolutionalry theory.tribune7
October 28, 2006
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“What predictions is ID making? What experiments are being conducted to demonstrate the veracity of those predictions? I would appreciate someone letting me know these answers.” Go watch the recent Meyer debate hosted by the Seattle Times. Meyer answers this question about 2 or 3 times, if memory serves me. “From what I have read thus far most of the writing being advanced by ID is more in the realm of philosophy rather than in systematic scientific investigation.” Substitute “ID” with “Darwinists” in the above quote and you’ll have something closer to reality. Hence the ID vs. Darwin debate, as was discussed in the OP.shaner74
October 28, 2006
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