Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Is a Modern Myth of the Metals the Answer?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In the post below Andrew Sibley links to an extraordinary article in The Times about the link between Darwinism and the recent spate of school shootings, and in the comments Leviathan steps up to give us the obligatory “this doesn’t disprove Darwinism” response. 

Leviathan, you are missing the point.  I read the article and there is not one word in it that attacks Darwinism per se.  For all you or I know the author could be a Darwinian fundamentalist.  I take it that the point of the article is that some school shooters are influenced by Darwinian theory.  That is undeniable. 

Actually, I take that back.  I am sure there are Darwinian fundamentalists out there who would deny that any school shooter has ever been influenced by Darwinism, but that just goes to show that Darwinian fundamentalists will deny propositions they know to be true.  I should say that the proposition cannot be denied in good faith. 

The author obviously wants his readers to consider not the validity of the theory itself but the implications the theory has for ethics.  When we teach our children that their existence is an ultimately meaningless accident and that morals are arbitrary byproducts of random genetic fluctuations and mechanical necessity, should we be surprised that they place a lower value on human life than someone who is taught that all humans have inherent dignity and worth because they are made in the image of God?

What to do?  What to do?  In considering this question, I am reminded of Plato’s “noble lie.”  In The Republic Plato proposed a special class of guardians trained from infancy to rule over the other classes.  But how do we persuade the guardians to rule for the common good instead of using their power to advance their personal ambitions?  Plato comes up with the “noble lie,” specifically the myth of the metals.  The answer, Plato says, is to make the guardians believe the gods have mixed a particular type of metal with the souls of the members of the different classes of society.  While common people have bronze or iron mixed with their soul, the guardians have gold mixed with theirs.  And here is the kicker:  The guardians are to be taught that they must never acquire wealth for themselves, because the gods frown at mixing earthly gold with spiritual gold.  Talk about chasing your tail.  Plato proposes a system in which the city spends years training the guardians in all the knowledge and wisdom they have, all the while making sure that at the end of the process they are still dumb enough to believe the myth of the metals. 

There are three and only three options. 

1.  We can continue to fill our children’s heads with standard Darwinian theory (which Dennett rightly calls “universal acid”), understanding that at least some of them are going to put two and two together and realize that the acid has eaten through all ethical principles — and act accordingly.

2.  We can try to come up with a secular noble lie.  “OK kids.  You might have noticed that one of the implications of what I just taught you is that your lives are ultimately meaningless and all morals are arbitrary, but you must never act as if that is true because [fill in the noble lie of your choice, such as “morality is firmly grounded on societal norms or our ability to empathize with others”].

3.  We can teach our children the truth – that the universe reveals a wondrous ordered complexity that can only be accounted for by the existence of a super-intelligence acting purposefully.  And one of the implications of that conclusion is that God exists, and, reasoning further, He has established an objective system of morality that binds us all, and therefore the moral imperatives you feel so strongly are not just an epiphenomenon of the electro-chemical states of your brain.

Looking around I see that for the last several decades we have tried options one and two, and we have gotten what we have gotten.  I vote to give option three a run.

Comments
Nakashima: I don't think your characterization of democracy and free market economies is deserved. Messy and wasteful perhaps, but random? More to the point, when you talk about advice that works, what do you mean by "works?" Furthers the human race? So, perhaps evolution has programmed me to care about the human race. But once I've figured out that this compassion is really just a survival mechanism (and perhaps even a faulty one at that), what then? Should I feel particularly beholden to a survival mechanism? My genes can outwit my genes. My chemistry can choose to ignore my chemistry. As I've written elsewhere:
From a biological perspective, I am a failure as a human being. I have a fitness of zero, primarily because my compassion gene keeps screwing over my selfish gene. When you get down to the cold, hard scientific facts of the situation, I exist to further my genes. Any other “purpose” to my life is illusory, is it not? To be sure, over many generations, evolution has also given me feelings for my family, but these exist to assist in furthering my genes. In my particular case, however, those feelings end up being counter-productive to the purpose for which they were originally intended. You see, I found out a number of years ago that my wife has poor egg quality and that it is nearly impossible for her to conceive. If it were not for the sentimentality with which evolution has burdened me, this information might have prompted me to leave my wife and seek out a more fertile mate in order to propagate my genes. It gets worse. Compassion played a role in our adopting a young boy. His blond hair and boisterous chemistry play havok with my own compassion chemistry so that, even though I know that I am investing energy in propagating someone else’s genes instead of my own, I can’t seem to stop myself. So, now I have quite the conundrum. Though my compassion gene is dragging down my fitness, my intellectual gene has evolved to the point that I recognize that my compassion gene is illusory–or at least that it is not functioning in the way that it should. Given that my primary purpose is to reproduce my genes, shouldn’t I ignore this sentimentality and leave my wife and child? Or maybe I shouldn’t ignore it, because my compassion gene has become detrimental and should be culled from the gene pool as a result? On the other hand, that would also cull out the intellectual gene that allows me to see my sentimentality for what it is. Darwinian morality is just so confusing for me. Can someone give me a hand here?
Can you not see the utter futility behind the notion that random processes can ever make me responsible for anything or to anything?Phinehas
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
08:24 PM
8
08
24
PM
PDT
"Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, He died on the cross and rose again. I am justified by grace through faith in Him. That is the absolute standard. All are held accountable to it." That isn't quite what I meant. I meant, what precisely is the moral standard? How does it govern one's actions?avocationist
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
07:32 PM
7
07
32
PM
PDT
Mr Phineas, First, lets be respectful of random, messy, and wasteful processes! There are those who would criticize democracy and the free market economy on exactly those grounds. Second, the 'authority' of our history is purely utilitarian - advice that works more often than not. Other people can argue that morals are divine dispensations of some FSM avatar or other. As I said, I'm aiming to give the simplest and most direct answer I can.Nakashima
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
06:59 PM
6
06
59
PM
PDT
Nakashima: What? Our history as a species is simply the outworking of random, messy, wasteful processes. How can random, messy, wasteful processes make me responsible for anything or have any sort of authority of anything else?Phinehas
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
06:35 PM
6
06
35
PM
PDT
I wonder if the Christians here could lay out what those standards are, concretely.
Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, He died on the cross and rose again. I am justified by grace through faith in Him. That is the absolute standard. All are held accountable to it.ellijacket
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
05:20 PM
5
05
20
PM
PDT
BTW, simply asserting that "good is an inherent quality of God" is a transparent attempt to evade the question by supporting a baseless assertion with another baseless assertion, and equating God and goodness is not only a violation of G. E. Moore's qualitative test for valid definitions of "good", it is also evading the question by means of a semantic trick. So, which is it — are ethical moral codes justified by theology, deontology, or teleology, or merely by assertion?Allen_MacNeill
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
04:55 PM
4
04
55
PM
PDT
Clive, re comment #89: Sorry, I expected you to respond to my comments by asserting that I am a materialist and that therefore I cannot possibly have anything rational to say about the justifications for ethical/moral prescriptions. My apologies. Now, back to the point: What makes an “ultimate standard” an ultimate standard? Is it the fact that someone asserted it, or that it doesn’t contain any contradictions in its underlying logic, or that it has generally beneficial effects? And, if you’ve chosen simple assertion, please explain using evidence why simply asserting that something constitutes an “ultimate standard” necessarily makes it so. Alternatively, please explain why the effects (rather than just the source) of an ethical prescription should not be considered to be at least part of its justification. Or, if you prefer, please explain how your position is not fatally undermined as a variation of the Euthyphro Dilemma.Allen_MacNeill
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
04:50 PM
4
04
50
PM
PDT
In comment #91, Clive asked:
"What is it about “us” or “we” that is not material?"
Our minds. Please note that minds are not brains, any more than mother boards are the programs which run in them.Allen_MacNeill
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
04:45 PM
4
04
45
PM
PDT
Seversky,
We account for “oughts”, who else?
Ok, thanks for your answer. What is it about "us" or "we" that is not material?Clive Hayden
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
03:31 PM
3
03
31
PM
PDT
Clive Hayden @ 82
Then what does account for oughts, Seversky? What material process, which is all you believe that exists, does? And how is that material process not subject to science? I’m really curious about what materialists believe accounts for ethics, and how science becomes irrelevant in ethical studies when science studies material, and material is all that exists to the materialist.
We account for "oughts", who else? If we are to be bound by moral and ethical codes then are we not entitled to have a say in what they are? After all, we expect to have a say in the civil and criminal laws by which our society is governed. What is disturbing is the willingness of some Christians to seize one horn of the Euthyphro Dilemma and declare that whatever God says or decides is right, given the evidence from the only textual source for His existence that He has behaved in ways that today we would consider immoral. Granted it has the merit of simplifying things. It cuts all the messy negotiations short by decreeing in effect "This is the word of Lord and that's all there is to it." However, this country fought a war to free itself from from the arbitrary rule of a temporal state in which it was denied a voice. Why should we willingly subject ourselves to moral or ethical codes simply because they are alleged to have been handed down by a God whose existence we cannot confirm? The other aspect of this problem is whether morals are rational or arbitrary. If they are arbitrary choices or whims then why should we obey them at all whether they come from God or man? If we assume that God had good reason for deciding they should be the way they are, then why should we not know the reasons and, more to the point, what is to prevent us for working them out for ourselves? In that case, we do not need God to tell us what they are. As for the material world, it is not "subject to" science but it is the proper subject of scientific study. And it is true that study has changed our understanding of the nature of that matter has changed radically over the last century or so. But it is just not a question of the nature of matter, it is also a question of the myriad forms taken by that matter and energy. We are one of those forms and, as I have argued before, moral codes serve to regulate the way we behave towards one another and, to some extent, other living creatures. In my view, they exist nowhere but in our minds. They are not "objective" by any normal usage of the word. Yes, that could lead to nihilism except for the argument that if this life is all we have then it would make sense to try and make the best of it and make it last as long as we can. And, yes, 'making the best of it' can mean different things to different people so the obvious answer is that everyone is guaranteed, so far as it is in our power, the right to pursue what makes them happy in their own way providing it does not infringe on the right of others to do the same. What is wrong with that?Seversky
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
03:27 PM
3
03
27
PM
PDT
Allen,
P.S. Just so we’re very clear about this, Clive, I am not a materialist. And please, don’t decide for yourself what I’m thinking or how I come to moral or ethical conclusions or justifications. At least have the common decency to let me do that, just this once…
What are you referring to? I haven't addressed you in this post Allen. I know you're not a materialist, although you do admit that the mind is an emerging property of the matter, whatever that means. But really, what are you referring to?Clive Hayden
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
03:15 PM
3
03
15
PM
PDT
I wonder if the Christians here could lay out what those standards are, concretely.avocationist
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
01:16 PM
1
01
16
PM
PDT
Clive,
Sure it does, for you have to have an ultimate standard to even condemn anything else.
I don't think so. I can make up my own mind about what should be condemned, although I am of course heavily influenced by the people I meet in my daily life. Surely you must agree that Christians have disagreements about what should be condemned or not. The disagreements between different religions are even stronger. It logically follows that most people do not know what the ultimate standards are, assuming they exist. Therefore, whether or not ultimate or objective standards exist, in the end it always boils down to a subjective choice. That is as true for me as it is for you.jitsak
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
01:10 PM
1
01
10
PM
PDT
Mr Phineas, In this case, the sez who is our history as a species.Nakashima
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
12:26 PM
12
12
26
PM
PDT
P.S. Just so we're very clear about this, Clive, I am not a materialist. And please, don't decide for yourself what I'm thinking or how I come to moral or ethical conclusions or justifications. At least have the common decency to let me do that, just this once...Allen_MacNeill
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
11:41 AM
11
11
41
AM
PDT
Clive: What makes an "ultimate standard" an ultimate standard? Is it the fact that someone asserted it, or that it doesn't contain any contradictions in its underlying logic, or that it has generally beneficial effects? And, if you've chosen simple assertion, please explain using evidence why simply asserting that something constitutes an "ultimate standard" necessarily makes it so. Alternatively, please explain why the effects of an ethical prescription should not be considered to be at least part of its justification.Allen_MacNeill
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
11:38 AM
11
11
38
AM
PDT
In comment #80 avocationist wrote:
But [Darwin] did also state that in 100 years or so, he expected the black race to be wiped out. A lot of people eat meat who could not bring themselves to actually slaughter an animal.
Do you understand the difference between a description and a statement of advocacy, or are these two sentences identical as far as you are concerned: Dropped rocks fall to the ground. Dropped rocks ought to fall to the ground. Yes, Darwin looked at the historical trends of the time and predicted that many "primitive peoples" would eventually be driven to extinction. Does that necessarily mean that he advocated this?Allen_MacNeill
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
11:32 AM
11
11
32
AM
PDT
Seversky,
Relativity theory or quantum mechanics, like evolution, have nothing to say about how human beings ought to behave. Yes, people can and do incorporate certain aspects of scientific theories into what can be called a worldview but that has nothing to do with how good the theory is as a scientific explanation.
Then what does account for oughts, Seversky? What material process, which is all you believe that exists, does? And how is that material process not subject to science? I'm really curious about what materialists believe accounts for ethics, and how science becomes irrelevant in ethical studies when science studies material, and material is all that exists to the materialist.Clive Hayden
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
09:34 AM
9
09
34
AM
PDT
jitsak,
This is very bad reasoning. Even if a deity created the universe, it doesn’t follow at all that “He has established an objective system of morality that binds us all”. For all we know, the universe is an experiment of a cruel deity that delights in the struggle for existence.
Sure it does, for you have to have an ultimate standard to even condemn anything else. If God were cruel, you would have no ultimate basis for condemnation of cruelty. You can only correct an error in mathematics because there is a right answer by comparison. If the wrong answer were what you were working for, you could do no correcting. There has to be an ultimate good in order to even declare anything as bad by comparison. Your complaint has been defeated in the book A Grief Observed, and in the essay De Futilitate by C. S. Lewis.Clive Hayden
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
09:14 AM
9
09
14
AM
PDT
Seversky, I agree that racism is a human problem. It also appears to be true that Darwin was a kind and gentle man, who would not personally endorse any cruelty. But he did also state that in 100 years or so, he expected the black race to be wiped out. A lot of people eat meat who could not bring themselves to actually slaughter an animal. Perhaps in this case the science could win out, which says that there are not significant genetic differences. Nonetheless, it seems a point of common sense that if humans have made a staggeringly impressive climb from ape intelligence to modern human intelligence, and if major groups of human were separated for tens of thousands of years from one another, long enough to support the visible racial characteristics, that those incremental increases of IQ or even just little attributes and talents, would not likely have ended up exactly equal. And I think it's because this is such an obvious point of common sense, that academia is now teaching that the races are not real, which is a shame, since I like them and suppose they were created for fun and beauty.avocationist
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
08:58 AM
8
08
58
AM
PDT
Seversky states: "Relativity theory or quantum mechanics, like evolution, have nothing to say about how human beings ought to behave." Yet relativity, (special), reveals that time, as we understand it, comes to a complete stop at the speed of light, thus revealing a higher "eternal" dimension of time, since light is not "frozen within time", thus must transcend it. This revelation falsifies a primary materialistic cornerstone that time was constant everywhere, as well as confirming a primary Theistic postulation that God is outside of time! Quantum mechanics completely crushed the materialistic postulation of a solid material particle as the primary constituent of reality, while lending extremely strong support that this reality was created by a Being who is not limited by time and space! Evolution is not even worthy to be called a hypothesis of science since it has no foundation in physics and has zero confirming empirical evidence to withstand scrutiny! Thus seversky, it is simply naive that you would say this does not inform our worldviews. I don't know about you but since I know for 100% absolute certainty that a eternal time frame/dimension does indeed exist, according to the best science we have no less, I am going to soberly act accordingly since from all evidence I can gather I will be in the eternal realm when I die to this physical body! You may play as if none of this scientific evidence matters but you are just "whistling like a little boy in the dark" to pretend we should not take these matters seriously!bornagain77
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
03:50 AM
3
03
50
AM
PDT
avocationist @ 75
By the way, I find it it disingenuous to deny that Darwin’s theory has anything to do with racism. Racism is absolutely implied by the theory. Perhaps we got over it and will never go there again, but should we decide to revisit racism, Darwinism will be right there to help us. The only way that the Darwinists get away with this denial, is by denying that races are “real.” Get real.
Racism is a human problem. It existed long before Darwin thought up his theory and is probably an unfortunate by-product of our instincts to make sense of the world by classifying it and to form discrete social groups. Science tells us that the physiological and genetic differences between the races are insignificant. If you look at racial prejudice, it seems to be based much more on perceived cultural rather than biological differences. Racists may seize on certain concepts of Darwinian evolution to justify their prejudices but that does not mean that the theory or its author were racist or endorsed racism.Seversky
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
03:33 AM
3
03
33
AM
PDT
ellijacket @ 68
Seversky, every worldview says something about the way things should be. Like it or not.
Yes, a worldview might, but a scientific theory does not. They are not the same thing. Relativity theory or quantum mechanics, like evolution, have nothing to say about how human beings ought to behave. Yes, people can and do incorporate certain aspects of scientific theories into what can be called a worldview but that has nothing to do with how good the theory is as a scientific explanation.Seversky
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
03:12 AM
3
03
12
AM
PDT
Avocationist:
Hummusman @24, I didn’t quite get your point, but in the large handful of shootings, quite a number have been on psych meds, or have had a recent change in dosage/meds, and the others I have not been able to find out. I find this significant and worth looking into
The intended tone of my previous comment didn't translate well. I agree totally with you. We do need to examine the role of mental illness and the ill-effects of medication in these tragedies. I was merely lamenting that there is a reflexive need around here to blame any tragedy on Darwinism. I suppose that Darwinism may be at fault for psychotropic drugs, but I don't recall anyone making that case around here. Understanding the truth behind these shootings is secondary to drafting the dead into the culture war.hummus man
November 15, 2009
November
11
Nov
15
15
2009
01:50 AM
1
01
50
AM
PDT
Hummusman @24, I didn't quite get your point, but in the large handful of shootings, quite a number have been on psych meds, or have had a recent change in dosage/meds, and the others I have not been able to find out. I find this significant and worth looking into. Psych meds, after all, are meant to have a fairly powerful psychic effect, and suicidal feelings are one of the listed side effects. I do not deny that Darwin's theory may play a role, or mental illness, or personal morality. All do - but psych meds may push a few more people over the edge. ______________________________ By the way, I find it it disingenuous to deny that Darwin's theory has anything to do with racism. Racism is absolutely implied by the theory. Perhaps we got over it and will never go there again, but should we decide to revisit racism, Darwinism will be right there to help us. The only way that the Darwinists get away with this denial, is by denying that races are "real." Get real.avocationist
November 14, 2009
November
11
Nov
14
14
2009
11:11 PM
11
11
11
PM
PDT
Ellijacket: You said, "How so? I have a consistent system in my home but my children don’t always follow it. Some children grow up and never follow anything their parents did. The same with us and God." With all due respect, you've missed the point, which is that there are in the world many scriptures whose adherents claim is Divine revelation. Most of them include assertions which can be (and are) interpreted as moral commandments from God (or Allah, or Jehovah, or Krishna, etc.), and they are all different. Even worse, the same revelation can be and is interpreted differently by different proponents of the religion. You can find Christians, for example, who believe that scripture supports a loving long term relationship, even if gay, and those for whom any homosexual expression whatsoever is an abomination. A person growing up in a Muslim household in Saudi Arabia will in all probability never even entertain the possibility that the Koran might be mistaken. If then the Bible is the true repository of moral authority, that person will have no realistic chance of ever benefiting from it. And likewise with the vast majority of people having been raised Hindu or Buddhist, etc. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and grant that your moral instruction to your children has been crystal clear and consistent. So you can say they have a definite choice regarding the moral system you have presented to them. This, however, is not the case with God's children (the people of this planet). I contend that if there really were an absolute moral code, then it would be clear, consistent, capable of only one reasonable interpretation, and have appeared the same in all scriptures in all cultures. This would be the only situation consistent with a truly loving and omnipotent God. Since I am convinced that God is both omnipotent and infinitely, unconditionally loving, I can only conclude that He has chosen not to give us an absolute moral standard.Bruce David
November 14, 2009
November
11
Nov
14
14
2009
10:37 PM
10
10
37
PM
PDT
Mung:
Would it make any difference to your argment if God were not omnipotent, or, more to the point, were not omnipotent in the way you imagine God to be?
If a reasonable conclusion from God's attribute of omnipotence is that He can communicate a particular thing that He Knows to a fallible human in a manner that ensures the human understands the thing, then yes, it does make a difference to the argument. Such revelation can grant sure Knowledge in a way that random, messy, wasteful processes cannot. In the end, does Descartes' evil genius really have anything over a messy, wasteful process like evolution when it comes to undermining our ability to Know anything?Phinehas
November 14, 2009
November
11
Nov
14
14
2009
07:47 PM
7
07
47
PM
PDT
bornagain77:
Well Mike, frankly I like the deeper issues that theodicy brings to light than Imagining some non-existent alien race
Ahh yes - 10**24 stars out there and you're confident about this?mikev6
November 14, 2009
November
11
Nov
14
14
2009
07:39 PM
7
07
39
PM
PDT
Trying link again... Sez who?Phinehas
November 14, 2009
November
11
Nov
14
14
2009
07:37 PM
7
07
37
PM
PDT
Nakashima:
I said, we are each responsible for our actions, and you asked, to whom? To each other is the simplest and most direct answer.
Sez who?Phinehas
November 14, 2009
November
11
Nov
14
14
2009
07:33 PM
7
07
33
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5

Leave a Reply