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Is COVID-19 the end of “Trust Science!!”?

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What happens when “science” is speaking with dozens of different voices, each a momentary flash of Truth unto itself?

Recently, some interesting facts came to light from Canada about who is really affected by COVID-19:

The National Institute on Aging says that as of May 6, 3,436 residents and six staff members of long term care settings had died of COVID-19, representing 82 per cent of the 4,167 deaths reported as of Wednesday…

Last fall, the National Institute on Aging warned long term care homes were plagued by conditions that increased the risk of spreading infections: people living in close quarters in residences faced with chronic shortages of staff, with little space or ability to enforce proper physical distancing measures, where poorly paid employees often work on a part-time basis at multiple facilities, increasing the risk.

The pandemic has borne out those fears.

Tonda MacCharles, “82% of Canada’s COVID-19 deaths have been in long-term care, new data reveals” at Toronto Star

I (O’Leary for News) recall being told explicitly months ago that COVID-19 mainly killed old and/or immune-compromised people. It must be so, at least in Canada, where there have been very few deaths among healthy young people.

So why close schools, throw young people out of work, shut down and maybe destroy their businesses, make it nearly impossible for young families to move, let heart patients die because their surgeries are postponed…

Do we need Albert Einstein to figure this out?: We know where the people in long-term care are. They’re in licensed government-inspected or -run facilities. If we had simply moved to address the problems outlined above and protect them, instead of sucker-punching young people’s lives, we might have saved many seniors, prevented much loss and damage, and weathered the storm much better.

But then we’d need to ignore the pack howls from “science.”

Once we climb back out of the hole we have so furiously dug for ourselves, let’s start thinking more about ignoring the pack howls from “science.”

After all, how many more of them can we afford?

See also: But IS there such a thing as pandemic science? Or is it just panic science? The problems that Lenzer and Brownlee identify in their screed as wrong science are normal components of a panic in a crisis. What it all really shows is that we aren’t as much smarter than our forebears as we think.

Comments
Especially if it allows us to speed up the opening of the economy.
Could it actually slow down opening up the economy? If that is true, then masks are an obstacle to opening up the economy. Unless you believe we should wear mask for the rest of time.
Why not bring back bloodletting and leaches? The reason we require RCTs is because of of the history of negative consequences due to the use of drugs before they were fully studied.
A nonsense statement in several respects. We already know the consequences of the use of the drugs which are effective. They have been fully studied. What has leeches or bloodletting to do with anything? RCT's are to compare new options with accepted options. Right now there is no other option because there is no recommended option other than to do nothing.jerry
May 14, 2020
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Jerry
Why? If everyone has to get the virus, why not the sooner the better?
Who says that everyone has to get it. Before vaccines, not everyone got smallpox, polio or the measles. Not everyone got the Spanish flu.
Is the really inhumane act the suppression of effective treatment options that are available using some irrational reason such as the need for RCTs (random control tests) before usage?
Why not bring back bloodletting and leaches? The reason we require RCTs is because of of the history of negative consequences due to the use of drugs before they were fully studied.Ed George
May 14, 2020
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VB
Do you know how much aerosols are spread just breathing,
Less if a mask is worn.
how far aerosols go when sneezing or coughing?
Not as far if a mask is worn.
If a person is not coughing or sneezing what is the risk to others if one maintains social distancing?
When you are in a store, or on public transit, and may other situations, it is not always possible to maintain the recommended two metre separation. And when you our outside, wind can make the recommended distance ineffective. I guess the question I have is, why are you so opposed to the minor inconvenience of wearing a mask? Especially if it allows us to speed up the opening of the economy.Ed George
May 14, 2020
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Not wearing a mask if you are near people is just a selfish, irresponsible act.
Why? If everyone has to get the virus, why not the sooner the better? Why isn't the spread of the virus quickly the more humane outcome when we have treatment options for those who get it. So to push a point are using masks really a less humane act? Is the really inhumane act the suppression of effective treatment options that are available using some irrational reason such as the need for RCTs (random control tests) before usage? The longer the lockdown, the more people will die from the severe economic consequences. Wearing masks will prolong the lockdown. Therefore wearing mask will lead to more people dying. Debate the logic if you want but if the propositions are true, then mask are a bad idea.jerry
May 14, 2020
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EG “But they do reduce the aerosols you spread if you are infected. Not wearing a mask if you are near people is just a selfish, irresponsible act.” You have no idea how effective masks are and neither does then CDC so spare me the outrage. Do you know how much aerosols are spread just breathing, how far aerosols go when sneezing or coughing? If a person is not coughing or sneezing what is the risk to others if one maintains social distancing? “ There is very little research about the value of masks to protect people in public settings. These interim recommendations are based on the best judgment of public health experts who relied in part on information about the protective value of masks in healthcare facilities.” “When used in conjunction with such preventive steps, masks and respirators MAY help prevent some spread of influenza.” https://www.cdc.gov/media/pressrel/2007/r070503.htm https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/covid-19-face-mask-advice-explained/ Vividvividbleau
May 14, 2020
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Cloth masks have little affect on preventing you from getting COVID-19 because they don’t prevent particles landing on your mask and entering through your eyes or nose as you touch your mask and face. Most people wearing a mask actually touch their face more frequently. But they do reduce the aerosols you spread if you are infected. Not wearing a mask if you are near people is just a selfish, irresponsible act.Ed George
May 14, 2020
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RHampton, You continue to avoid the questions and whether masks are in fact productive or counterproductive. By bringing up other people all you are doing is saying you agree with them. To use them as an example of an argument are you saying that these people are making an irrelevant argument? You have not said that. By presenting them you are saying you agree with them unless you specify you don't. I understand all the reasons for masks but are they not in fact counterproductive in the sense they are slowing down the inevitable? And the inevitable is where we have to get to. Most of the population have to get infected. Waiting for a vaccine may kill millions in the mean time. Do we not have to reach herd immunity and quick as possible especially when we have effective treatments.jerry
May 14, 2020
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“Seriously, mask = cowardice is some of rankest fake macho horsesh*t around. It’s decadent, anti-intellectual vice signalling posing as courage — at someone else’s expense. It’s shameful posturing hackery and playing to the mob.” Mask cowardice really? Has anyone done a controlled scientific trial that tells us exactly how effective masks are? My family is full of nurses they tell me that unless they are n95 there is considerable dispute as to the effectiveness. Masks worn in surgery are not necessarily effective in prohibiting the transmissions of Covid. Where are the year long trials? I am extremely skeptical having already been lied to repeatedly by the so called experts. We were told masks are not effective now they are. We were lied to by WHO led by a pretend Marxist doctor that the virus was not transmitted human to human. We were told by the President that this would be over when warm weather hit. We were told that the reason for the lockdown was to flatten the curve but now it’s morphed into something else. We have been lied to by China. So now we are supposed to wear masks and if we don’t we are cowards F that! I see that Costco require masks to get into their store, fine if I don’t want to wear a mask I will not go to Costco, my choice. If someone wants me to wear a mask in order to see me I will wear a mask or choose not to see them, my choice. If I am in a store that does not require me to wear a mask I may or may not however I will maintain social distance. I will choose when and where I will wear a mask but I will not be shamed into wearing a mask that we have no idea what it’s effectiveness is to a long term solution. If someone is freaked out about someone not wearing a mask here is a suggestion, stay home!!, your choice. Language warning. The following rant by Dave Portnoy Barstool Sports https://www.theblaze.com/news/barstool-sports-founder-coronavirus-lockdowns Vividvividbleau
May 14, 2020
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Jonah Goldberg Seriously, mask = cowardice is some of rankest fake macho horsesh*t around. It’s decadent, anti-intellectual vice signalling posing as courage — at someone else’s expense. It’s shameful posturing hackery and playing to the mob. Terry Moran We wear masks to protect others, in the event we are infected yet asymptomatic. It is a kindness. A form of fellowship and solidarity in a time of pandemic. An act of charity towards our more vulnerable brothers and sisters. You parade your faith, yet here forget its essence. Patrick Connelly Beyond the poor historical analogy, this is a quite a tweet from the editor of a magazine (@firstthingsmag) that advocates for "human dignity, "a religiously and morally serious culture," "responsible global citizenship," and "culture of personal and communal responsibility." https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/rhampton7
May 14, 2020
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Posting something does not necessarily denote agreement. It can be used as an example of an argument for which the present debate (in this case, this thread) has ignored, dismissed, or inadequately addressed.rhampton7
May 14, 2020
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Asauber,
What about this: “The World Health Organization estimates that worldwide, annual influenza epidemics result in about 3-5 million cases of severe illness and about 250,000 to 500,000 deaths.”
There are vaccines for flu, of course, and the virus is less transmissible and less deadly that SARS-Cov-2/covid-19. We are already approaching the middle of this range for known covid-19 deaths, and when you apply the same approach as teh WHO uses to estimate flu deaths (excess mortality) we would be well on the way to the upper-limit with herd immunity still very distant.orthomyxo
May 14, 2020
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Rhampton, You still have not answered any of the questions. If you post something, it is tantamount to you agreeing unless you specifically disagree. You cannot pass it off on Ron Dreher or Eric Erickson. You posted it, you own it. You are claiming there are no treatments. Defend that position. The lockdown will also kill more than the virus, demonstrated by past severe economic downturns. So how does anything that postpones the return to normal activity and nearly full immunity actually not kill more people? That is. the position I am putting up for debate. If you disagree, defend it. Right now I am willing to defend the side that says masks and the lockdown are not helpful and very counterproductive.jerry
May 14, 2020
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A new study suggested that men are less likely to wear face masks, despite the risk of COVID-19. According to the research, it appears that some people see wearing a face covering as a "sign of weakness." While the study showed that a lack of fear of COVID-19 may play a part in their feelings toward face coverings, it isn’t the only factor affecting men’s decisions to wear or not wear masks. “Men more than women agree that wearing a face covering is shameful, not cool, a sign of weakness and a stigma,” Capraro and Barcelo wrote. https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/men-face-masks-sign-of-weakness-coronavirusrhampton7
May 14, 2020
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It’s becoming clear that many activities we would not have given a second thought about doing months ago, now pose a risk with COVID-19. On March 10, a single infected individual participated in a two and a half hour choir practice with 60 other people. At the time special social distancing precautions were not in place and no one was wearing masks. From the contact tracing investigation, the health department was able to estimate that 52 people developed COVID-19 from one person, -- an attack rate of 53% among confirmed cases and 87% among all cases. Three people were hospitalized, including the index patent, two people died. https://www.clickondetroit.com/health/good-health/2020/05/14/coronavirus-spread-to-87-of-choir-group-from-1-infected-person-at-practice/rhampton7
May 14, 2020
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We have treatments, vaccines, and considerable immunity to the flu built up in the global population. That’s why we don’t have to a wear mask, though some choose to.rhampton7
May 14, 2020
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"Because there wasn’t a deadly, very contagious virus on the loose with no established clinical treatment or vaccine available." What about this: "The World Health Organization estimates that worldwide, annual influenza epidemics result in about 3-5 million cases of severe illness and about 250,000 to 500,000 deaths." https://www.medscape.com/answers/219557-3459/what-is-the-global-incidence-of-influenza Andrewasauber
May 14, 2020
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Why did the general public not wear masks before COVID?” Because there wasn’t a deadly, very contagious virus on the loose with no established clinical treatment or vaccine available. Look at images from the Spanish flu. Wearing masks in public was common. https://images.app.goo.gl/KyYnAyGGQppKy3cA7rhampton7
May 14, 2020
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"Being nice to each other." Bob O'h, You don't need a nanny state to be nice to each other. Andrewasauber
May 14, 2020
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Asauber @ 68 -
Right on cue with “What about people who want a nanny state?” lol
No, what about altruism? Being nice to each other. One reason I'm loath to criticise religion as a whole is because that's what a lot of religious teaching seems to be about. You should try it one day. Jerry @ 71 - I also used to live in Finland, a country without oil. Until Nokia, all they had was trees, salmon and water. Germany and Denmark (where I have also lived) also don't have oil. The UK, where I grew up, does. It's as much about what you do with the riches you have.Bob O'H
May 14, 2020
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"Why did doctors and nurses wear masks before COVID?" "Why did the general public not wear masks before COVID?" And I think doctors and nurses still get viruses. And I think people vaccinated against viruses still get viruses. Andrewasauber
May 14, 2020
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Read the posts again, that’s not me but Rid Dreher and Erick Erickson. Why did doctors and nurses wear masks before COVID? Same reason. To prevent passing on any possible infection. Remember, you may be infected and asymptomatic.rhampton7
May 14, 2020
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Rhampton7, "a certain kind of right-winger" We don't believe, as you apparently do, that virtue-signalling or lockdown theatre prevents viruses from spreading. Andrewasauber
May 14, 2020
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Are masks necessary? Or are they just putting off the inevitable or even counterproductive? RHampton seems to think that masks are necessary by his posting above. So I am asking him why? I will also ask him or anyone who wants to respond if flattening the curve is counterproductive? Will our immune systems be less robust by self isolation? There seems to be this world view that we must be completely free of new virus cases for our lives to be saved. It is just the opposite that we want a high. percentage to get the virus before we are immune to it as a society? Is the real threat to our lives not the virus and the social distancing or masks etc but the fact there is no recommended treatment by the medical establishment when promising ones exists. After all there are proposals that would limit deaths to .03% with proper treatment. Are all Rhampton's examples just saying we are doing it wrong? Is the real issue not the number of cases or the number of tests done but the suppression of treatment options. Before people go off on their high horses as RHampton has done, he should be able to answer these and other questions. And for some positive news MedCram has another video today on ANC and possible use of this additive for fighting the virus after it gets established. https://bit.ly/3fNJJKL We are starting to see a number of positive ways of treating the virus.jerry
May 14, 2020
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do not understand, nor will I ever understand, why the presence of facemasks in the middle of a deadly pandemic, spread in part by spittle, that in two months has killed 80,000 Americans, is such a trigger for a certain kind of right-winger. Did you see that a prominent traditionalist Catholic lay leader compared masks to the yellow Star of David? It’s not just conservatives, of course. In Los Angeles, a security guard at a Target store today had his arm broken in a fight with two men who refused to wear masks inside, per the company’s policy. Somehow, I doubt those two thugs were familiar with the philosophy of Edmund Burke. Still, the fact that editor (R R Reno) of a religious and cultural magazine as distinguished as First Things would go off in public and call people who are trying to follow public health guidelines in the middle of a pandemic cowards — that is, guilty not of poor medical judgment, but guilty of one of the worst vices — is deranged. >> Erick Erickson >> @EWErickson >> Masks are not driven by fear, but by respect for the community around us. We don’t put our finger on the trigger of a gun because we’re afraid, but because we are responsible. This isn’t hard. https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/rhampton7
May 14, 2020
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Right now in Canada people are getting checks in the mail to sit at home. And while for many its more then they were making flipping burgers, many businesses are shutting down for good. Three that I know of where i live are closing for good. The lockdown has pushed them over the edge. The impact for many is Huge, and the fear in many is unreal. They literally cross to the other side of the road when they see you coming, or turn around in the grocerey isle just to avoid you, how is this mentally healthy. our leaders should be ashamed. and for many in the world its life or death.. https://thewire.in/rights/bihar-starvation-deaths-lockdownreverendspy
May 14, 2020
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I believe Bob O'H lives in Norway. Norway essentially has free electricity from hydroelectric plants in the mountains. It also has a nest egg of about a half million dollars per person from oil revenues. The total population is only 5.3 million people. It also has a vibrant tourist industry since it is a very pretty country. So it has a large amount of money coming in from outside the country for a small population. Nice for a very small group of people. But hardly a model for running the world or any social or economic policy for others. I could point to some counties in the US that similar economics.jerry
May 14, 2020
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Bob O'h doesn't realize what he is saying. He's a programmed statist. When he says "What about people who want other people to be taken care of?" he means state imposition for everybody. He just can't admit that, even to himself. Andrewasauber
May 14, 2020
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But how are you so sure that your brand of altruism is correct? It may be, and I certainly understand that you have genuine concerns, Fear is rampant But saying that Sweden’s approach of limited lockdowns and herd immunity is uncaring or misguided seems wrong as well. Do the Swedes not have compassion? I am very concerned of what the health and financial impacts of this shutdown are and will continue to be in the days and years to come. And it bothers me when I'm told that I am uncaring or that we need to listen to the science, when the directives and estimates from the WHO and people in charge have been wrong almost every step of the wayreverendspy
May 14, 2020
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Bob O'h Right on cue with "What about people who want a nanny state?" lol Andrewasauber
May 14, 2020
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reverendspy, The computer/tv screen is now where virtual graven images are worshipped. Brain cells are killed in exchange for... entertainment? We have discovered the virtual gods are not happy with just killing some brain cells. They want more real meat. Andrewasauber
May 14, 2020
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