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Is functional information in DNA always conserved? (Part one)

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Conservation of sequence in the course of natural history has always been considered a sign of function. But does function always coincide with sequence conservation? And are there other important aspects which must be considered? This topic has been discussed recently with some passion here, so I will dedicate a series of two posts to it, in the hope that we can base our discussions on reliable data. I apologize in advance if some of the following discussion is necessarily rather technical.

In general, in evolutionary analysis, conservation is considered a sign of function. Protein coding genes which are more strictly conserved in the course of time are usually considered as having greater functional constraint than those genes which change more. The same is supposed to be true for non coding sequences, although the topic is much more controversial.

So, we start here considering how much of the human genome is conserved, and how that conservation relates to function. These will be the first two points in the discussion.

 

1) How much of the human genome is made of conserved sequences?

Luckily, this is a point which is well understood. After all, conservation can be evaluated objectively aligning the genomes of different species, and that has already been done with enough precision.

However, it is important to remember that the result can be somewhat different according to how we define conservation, and according to the method we use to measure it. That is perfectly normal.

A very complete paper about sequence conservation in genomes is the following:

Adam Siepel, Gill Bejerano, Jakob S. Pedersen, et al.

”Evolutionarily conserved elements in vertebrate, insect, worm, and yeast genomes”

In that paper, they evaluate conservation in vertebrate genomes. Just to make it short, they find about 4.3% of conservation in the human genome (referred to vertebrates), while allowing that:

These numbers are somewhat sensitive to the methods used for parameter estimation. Various different methods produced coverage estimates of 2.8% – 8.1% for the vertebrates, 36.9% – 53.1% for the insects, 18.4% – 36.6% for the worms, and 46.5% -67.6% for the yeasts (see Supplemental material). Note that the vertebrate coverage is similar to recent estimates of 5% – 8% for the share of the human genome that is under purifying selection (Chiaromonte et al. 2003; Roskinetal. 2003; Cooper et al. 2004), despite the use of quite different methods and datasets.

So, we can say that with most methods the  percentage of the human genome which is conserved is about 3 – 8%.

If we look carefully at Figure 3  in the same paper, and in particular to the data about vertebrates, we find other interesting information:

a) Protein coding regions (exons, in red) are highly conserved, about 68%, but they are only 18% of the conserved regions.

b) Introns are less conserved, almost 5%, and they are 28.5% of the conserved regions.

c) Unannotated regions (the rest of non coding DNA) are even less conserved, about 2,5%, and they are 41.2% of the conserved regions.

Other gene associated sequences (5’ UTR, 3’ UTR, etc.) represent smaller fractions.

So, there is no doubt that non coding DNA is less conserved than coding DNA (less than 5% versus 68%), but there is no doubt that most of conserved DNA is non coding (about 70%).

Another important point is that we are discussing here general conservation. The same paper analyzes also highly conserved elements (HCEs). They cover only 0.14% of the human genome, a much smaller fraction: About 42% of these were in gene coding or gene associated regions, and about 58% in non coding regions.

Finally, there is an even more restricted category, ultra conserved elements (UCEs), with 100% identity, which is described in this paper:

G. Bejerano et al.: “Ultraconserved elements in the human genome”.

2004 May 28;304(5675):1321-5. Epub 2004 May 6.

There are 481 segments longer than 200 base pairs (bp) that are absolutely conserved (100% identity with no insertions or deletions) between orthologous regions of the human, rat, and mouse genomes. Nearly all of these segments are also conserved in the chicken and dog genomes, with an average of 95 and 99% identity, respectively. Many are also significantly conserved in fish. These ultraconserved elements of the human genome are most often located either overlapping exons in genes involved in RNA processing or in introns or nearby genes involved in the regulation of transcription and development. Along with more than 5000 sequences of over 100 bp that are absolutely conserved among the three sequenced mammals, these represent a class of genetic elements whose functions and evolutionary origins are yet to be determined, but which are more highly conserved between these species than are proteins and appear to be essential for the ontogeny of mammals and other vertebrates.

This is an even smaller fraction of the genome.

 

2) Is there functional DNA which is not conserved,  in the human genome?

Certainly, and a lot of it!

Everybody knows that the ENCODE project has found that most of human genome is transcribed. That does not necessarily mean that it is functional, as many have pointed out.

A very recent paper from the people at ENCODE discusses the problem of function. It is:

“Defining functional DNA elements in the human genome”

The authors  in that paper use three different approaches to infer function in the human genome:

a) Evolutionary approach. That means conservation. They start with what we have already discussed at point 1, but they refer to mammalian conservation, which can be expected to be somewhat higher than vertebrate conservation. They comment:

The lower bound estimate that 5% of the human genome has been under evolutionary constraint was based on the excess conservation observed in mammalian alignments (2, 3, 87) relative to a neutral reference (typically ancestral repeats, small introns, or fourfold degenerate codon positions). However, estimates that incorporate alternate references, shape-based constraint (88), evolutionary turnover (89), or lineage-specific constraint (90) each suggests  roughly two to three times more constraint than previously (12–15%), and their union might be even larger as they each correct different aspects of alignment-based excess constraint. Moreover, the mutation rate estimates of the human genome are still uncertain and surprisingly low (91) and not inconsistent with a larger fraction of the genome under relatively weaker constraint (92). Although still weakly powered, human population studies suggest that an additional 4–11% of the genome may be under lineage-specific constraint after specifically excluding protein coding regions (90, 92, 93), and these numbers may also increase as our ability to detect human constraint increases with additional human genomes. Thus, revised models, lineage-specific constraint, and additional datasets may further increase evolution-based estimates.

Now, let’s look at Fig. 1 in the paper, a Venn diagram which sums up the results of a detailed analysis of available data. I have checked the exact numbers on which the figure is based in the Supporting Information file. the purple circle is the protein coding fraction in the genome, about 1.25%. The evolutionary conserved fraction of human genome is the red circle, and it is  7.38% of the whole genome.  The greater part of it (6.33%) is non coding DNA. That is in good accord with what reported at point 1.

b) Genetic approach. With that, the authors mean proof of modifications in phenotype with genetic alterations of the sequence. This is the “gold standard” of function. It means that function is certainly there.

The subset of genome for which there is genetic confirmation of function is the green area. I have not found the exact numbers for it in the paper, but I would say that it is about 15%. It can be seen that it somewhat overlaps the conserved circle, but at least 50% of it is not conserved and is not protein coding. As this is the gold standard, we have here a significant portion of non coding DNA which is not conserved while being certainly functional.

c) Biochemical approach. This is the traditional ENCODE approach, the one with indicates possible function in 80% of the genome. It is based on many biochemical evidences, which are explained in the paper.The blue areas indeed include about 80% of the whole genome.

However, the authors divided the blue area in three subsets, according to the level of activity detected. The dark blue area is the area with high level of activity. So, let’s consider only that subsets, leaving the other two as controversial, at present.

For the dark blue area (15.56%), evidence at transcription level and at other biochemical levels is very high. So, the inference of function can be considered very reliable. As can be seen, the dark blue area overlaps the green area and the red circle, but still about two thirds of it are out of both.

If we consider the union of these three different subsets (red circle, green area, dark blue area) we have the total portion of the genome for which there is convincing evidence of function, at the present state. It  is about 24%, and most of it is non coding.

Moreover, the percentage of functional genome can only increase in time. While the red circle (conserved elements) and the purple circle (protein coding genes) are more or less final, the green area (gold standard) can only expand, and it can potentially confirm the function of parts of the blue areas (including those with lower activity).

So, to sum up:

– At the present state of knowledge, function is extremely likely for 24% of the human genome.

– For about 15% (green area) it is certain.

Most of that functional genome (about 95% of it) is non coding.

Most of that functional genome (about 70% of it) is not conserved.

But that is not all. There are two other important points which must be addressed, and which are even more intriguing. They are:

3) Conserved function which does not imply conserved sequence.

4) Function which requires non conservation of sequence.

I will deal with them in the second part of this discussion.

Comments
gpuccio @ 35
Yes. If presented with evidence that a new functional protein exhibiting new original dFSCI can arise naturally without intelligent design, I would agree that dFSCI admits false positives, and that would certainly redefine its value. So, yes.
Interesting, very logical reasoning. Thank you. What is(are) the name(s) of that(those) protein(s)? How can it (they) arise? It certainly must be a very interesting process for me to study and learn from. Can't wait to read about it. But most probably I won't understand it well, so I will have to ask specific questions about it. Shouldn't the description of such an interesting process be on a separate OP thread? Just a suggestion.Dionisio
May 19, 2014
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CuriousCat: I essentially believe that the neo darwinian theory, in all its variants, can be falsified in a Popperian sense. So, it is a scientific theory, although a very bad one. But, as you imply, it's certainly very flexible in its attempts at avoiding falsification ! :)gpuccio
May 19, 2014
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jerry: "I have a quick question. Just looking at the human genome, can we imply function by looking at sequences that are essentially the same across groups separated by long times?" I suppose that sequence conservation must be higher to be relevant, if the separation is shorter. "Conservation" is an indirect measure of a functional constraint. That's why we are interested in it. The idea is: sequences which have no function are free to change, and they will change because of neutral random variation. On the other hand, sequences which are functional will change less in the same time, because much of the variation in them will be deleterious, and will be eliminated by negative (purifying) selection. Now, the longer the time which separates two species, the higher in principle the neutral random variation in their genomes. So, if two sequences are highly conserved between Caenorhabditis elegans and humans, that is more significant (implies higher functional constraint) than if two sequences exhibit similar conservation between chimp and humans. That's why it is important to specify which type of conservation is being measured, as I have tried to point out.gpuccio
May 19, 2014
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BA at #34: Good points.gpuccio
May 19, 2014
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Dionisio: You say: "Even if ALL functional proteins could be shown to easily arise naturally, I would still require a detailed, step by step, complete, comprehensive, coherent, logical description of the origin of the systems I’m studying." OK, the complexity of systems is obviously much greater than the complexity of their individual parts. That's an aspect of the concept of irreducible complexity, for which we must be really grateful to Behe. But the point is: functional complexity is the tool to infer design. It is the demonstration that only conscious understanding and conscious purpose can accomplish some well defined task, and generate some well defined result. If the concept works, it must work in the same way for simple proteins and for complex systems. IOWs, it must be true that complex functional information can only arise from a conscious designer. And it is true. For proteins, as much as for systems of them.gpuccio
May 19, 2014
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Joe: You say: "The problem with that is no one knows what the natural history was." Well, nobody has really observed directly natural history. All our ideas about it are indirect. The concept of conservation of sequences is obviously derived from comparisons in the existing proteome, and on some fundamental assumptions, especially Common Descent and the concept of negative (purifying) selection acting on variation of functional elements. I accept those assumptions, otherwise I would never discuss about conservation and its meaning. Anyone is free to reject those assumptions, and therefore reject my reasonings too.gpuccio
May 19, 2014
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Piotr: Your first paragraph ends with this sentence.
So from a strictly “neo-Darwinian” point of view (if you insist on using such a term) any junk DNA should be eliminated from the genome.
Your second paragraph ends with this sentence:
For most eukaryotes it is insignificant — at any rate, not high enough for purifying selection to override the effects of neutral evolution, which allows junk to accumulate simply because it does no harm (and may even be occasionally co-opted for a function).
Your fourth paragraph reads:
So the presence of junk DNA, while predicted by nearly neutral theory, is not necessary .
I'm sorry but I cannot follow your logic. I'm pretty much Popperian when it comes to science, but, let alone a strict falsification, I sincerely cannot understand what evolution theory suggests vaguely in the view of what you have written. Furthermore, your first sentence any junk DNA should be eliminated from the genome is simply wrong. As you have pointed out in your second paragraph, selective pressure coming from the restrictions on energy is negligible for most of the eukaryotes, and other than that, there is no reason to expect the elimination of unnecessary products (genes, proteins, pathways) unless they cause a high burden. to the organism Let us also remember that appendix, wisdom teeth, etc. have been conventional textbook examples of "junk organs", which are explained in the light of Darwinian paradigm. Hence your sentence, if it were published in a biological journal, would be corrected to: So from a strictly “neo-Darwinian” point of view any junk DNA may be eliminated from the genome. There is a further problem in your logic. You use two theories (neutral theory and neo-Darwinian selection) in a complimentary way. There are some approaches which complement each other in science, I agree with that. However, in this specific case, you seem to hold these two theories as a kind of anything goes approach. If we encounter these type of observations, then here's the theory to explain it.. If we encounter just the opposite, no need to worry! We have another theory to explain it. Coming back to the basic question of this discussion, now, if junk DNA does not come out to be so junk, then there would be two problems at the same time: 1. How is possible that a random search algorithm with negligible selective pressure can come up with so many correct guesses? 2. Now that neutral theory will be nearly falsified, how is it possible that new functional folds arise (without an extensive search suggested by neutral theory)?CuriousCat
May 19, 2014
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Piotr at #29: I think you are "jumping" too much (to borrow the concept from wd400). Your suggested explanation for junk DNA is far from being proven. Indeed, the whole concept of abundant junk DNA is far from being proven. I would say the opposite is true. First of all, the accumulation of non coding DNA in more complex beings has a much simpler explanation: non coding DNA has important regulatory functions. This whole post, and the one which will follow, are dedicated to that point. The explanation you present is really ad hoc to defend the theory of darwinian evolution with a little bit of its variant of neutralism. A good recipe, but not one that explains what we observe. The functions of non coding DNA are emerging at tremendous rate. To quote yourself, I have the impression that you have "swallowed" the hype of ENCODE's hype a little too early. You say: "it seems that the ENCODE leaders are now backing down from their inflated claims and trying to blame the 2012 hype on the press." I don't think it is true. The recent paper from ENCODE is based on exactly the same data as before. It just acknowledges the objections that were made, and intelligently discusses them. It remains true that about 80% of the human genome shows biochemical evidence of likely function. What the ENCODE people have done is to divide that set into three subsets, each with higher level of evidence. I have accepted, in my discussion here, to stick to the subset with the highest molecular evidence, because, as usual, I tend to be very generous with the enemy. :) In my next post, I will discuss why a lower level of transcription evidence is not necessarily a lower level of evidence for function. The part of non coding DNA which remains more controversial from the point of view of function is the transposonic part. And yet, strangely, darwinists are the first to admit its very important role in the evolution of genomes. You refer to that yourself, when you say that junk can "accumulate simply because it does no harm (and may even be occasionally co-opted for a function). (Emphasis mine). That's an understatement, if I ever saw one! Don't you find it strange that the part of the genome which should be complete junk is also the one which seems to be responsible for new functional proteins, and for many important re-definitions of genomic information? I think that I will never really understand how non design people think... :)gpuccio
May 19, 2014
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""Boom! Boom! Take cover! It’s the dreaded Bornagain Broadside!
People who argue by mocking generally have little of substance to say. Otherwise they would not do it . In this case the mocking is validating BA.jerry
May 19, 2014
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I have a quick question. Just looking at the human genome, can we imply function by looking at sequences that are essentially the same across groups separated by long times? Australian indigenous people have separated from Africans for about 50.000 years. Is this enough time to look at which sections of the genome have "rotted" and which remain fairly constant. How much Neanderthal DNA is there? They supposedly left Africa 400-500 thousand years ago.jerry
May 19, 2014
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#34 Boom! Boom! Take cover! It's the dreaded Bornagain Broadside!Piotr
May 19, 2014
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Piotr:
I do not want to distract you now, but since you are making a very strong claim, I’d like to ask a simple question. If presented with evidence that a new functional protein can arise naturally without intelligent design, would you agree that the whole concept of dFSCI is a house of cards?
Yes. If presented with evidence that a new functional protein exhibiting new original dFSCI can arise naturally without intelligent design, I would agree that dFSCI sdmits false positives, and that would certainly redefine its value. So, yes.gpuccio
May 19, 2014
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Piotr, I have a honest question for you. Now you believe that multicellular organisms contain a large percentage of junk DNA. But if the genomes of higher life forms contain large percentages of junk, then why does the cell have such elaborate mechanisms for repairing random mutations to DNA:
Protein Researchers Unravel the Molecular Dance of DNA Repair - March 2012 Excerpt: Using state-of-the-art technology, scientists at the Novo Nordisk Foundation Center for Protein Research at the University of Copenhagen and their international collaborators have successfully obtained molecular snapshots of tens of thousands processes involved in DNA damage repair.,,, "We first damaged the DNA of cells using radiation or chemical drugs and then used a technique called mass spectrometry, which is a way of precisely determining the identity of proteins and their chemical modifications," Petra Beli says. "This allowed us to follow thousands of protein modifications that happened in the process of DNA repair, shedding new light on how the networks of biochemical signals are regulated and how the infrastructure of alerts works." The data from the experiments is so extensive that it will require much further work by researchers to fully understand the significance and impact of these newly identified signaling pathways. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120315123022.htm Quantum Dots Spotlight DNA-Repair Proteins in Motion - March 2010 Excerpt: "How this system works is an important unanswered question in this field," he said. "It has to be able to identify very small mistakes in a 3-dimensional morass of gene strands. It's akin to spotting potholes on every street all over the country and getting them fixed before the next rush hour." Dr. Bennett Van Houten - of note: A bacterium has about 40 team members on its pothole crew. That allows its entire genome to be scanned for errors in 20 minutes, the typical doubling time.,, These smart machines can apparently also interact with other damage control teams if they cannot fix the problem on the spot. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100311123522.htm A Look at the Quality Control System in the Protein Factory - JonathanM - March 2012 Excerpt: The DNA damage response (DDR) system is like a cellular special ops force. The moment such damage is detected, an intricate network of communication and recruitment launches into action. If the cellular process for making proteins were a factory, this would be the most advanced quality-control system ever designed. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/03/a_look_at_the_q057791.html Researchers discover how key enzyme repairs sun-damaged DNA - July 2010 Excerpt: Ohio State University physicist and chemist Dongping Zhong and his colleagues describe how they were able to observe the enzyme, called photolyase, inject a single electron and proton into an injured strand of DNA. The two subatomic particles healed the damage in a few billionths of a second. "It sounds simple, but those two atomic particles actually initiated a very complex series of chemical reactions," said Zhong,,, "It all happened very fast, and the timing had to be just right." http://www.physorg.com/news199111045.html More DNA Repair Wonders Found - October 2010 Excerpt: This specialized enzyme may attract other repair enzymes to the site, and “speeds up the process by about 100 times.” The enzyme “uses several rod-like helical structures... to grab hold of DNA.”,,, On another DNA-repair front, today’s Nature described a “protein giant” named BRCA2 that is critically involved in DNA repair, specifically targeting the dangerous double-stranded breaks that can lead to serious health consequences http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201010.htm#20101007a Extreme Genome Repair - 20 March 2009 Excerpt: If its naming had followed, rather than preceded, molecular analyses of its DNA, the extremophile bacterium Deinococcus radiodurans might have been called Lazarus. After shattering of its 3.2 Mb genome into 20–30 kb pieces by desiccation or a high dose of ionizing radiation, D. radiodurans miraculously reassembles its genome such that only 3 hr later fully reconstituted nonrearranged chromosomes are present, and the cells carry on, alive as normal. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867409002657 Scientists Decipher Missing Piece Of First-responder DNA Repair Machine - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: The first-responder machine, a protein complex called Mre11-Rad50-Nbs1 (or MRN for short), homes in on the gravest kind of breaks in which both strands of a DNA double helix are cut. It then stops the cell from dividing and launches an error-free DNA repair process called homologous recombination, which replaces defective genes. per science daily Repair mechanisms in DNA include: A proofreading system that catches almost all errors A mismatch repair system to back up the proofreading system Photoreactivation (light repair) Removal of methyl or ethyl groups by O6 – methylguanine methyltransferase Base excision repair Nucleotide excision repair Double-strand DNA break repair Recombination repair Error-prone bypass etc..
Moreover Piotr, why do Darwinists ignore the obvious problem that this presents to their/your hypothesis?
Contradiction in evolutionary theory - video - (The contradiction between extensive DNA repair mechanisms and the necessity of 'random mutations/errors' for Darwinian evolution) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzh6Ct5cg1o The Evolutionary Dynamics of Digital and Nucleotide Codes: A Mutation Protection Perspective - February 2011 Excerpt: "Unbounded random change of nucleotide codes through the accumulation of irreparable, advantageous, code-expanding, inheritable mutations at the level of individual nucleotides, as proposed by evolutionary theory, requires the mutation protection at the level of the individual nucleotides and at the higher levels of the code to be switched off or at least to dysfunction. Dysfunctioning mutation protection, however, is the origin of cancer and hereditary diseases, which reduce the capacity to live and to reproduce. Our mutation protection perspective of the evolutionary dynamics of digital and nucleotide codes thus reveals the presence of a paradox in evolutionary theory between the necessity and the disadvantage of dysfunctioning mutation protection. This mutation protection paradox, which is closely related with the paradox between evolvability and mutational robustness, needs further investigation." http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/literature/2011/04/26/dna_repair_mechanisms_reveal_a_contradic The Darwinism contradiction of repair systems Excerpt: The bottom line is that repair mechanisms are incompatible with Darwinism in principle. Since sophisticated repair mechanisms do exist in the cell after all, then the thing to discard in the dilemma to avoid the contradiction necessarily is the Darwinist dogma. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-darwinism-contradiction-of-repair-systems/
bornagain77
May 19, 2014
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If presented with evidence that a new functional protein can arise naturally without intelligent design, would you agree that the whole concept of dFSCI is a house of cards?
Even if ALL functional proteins could be shown to easily arise naturally, I would still require a detailed, step by step, complete, comprehensive, coherent, logical description of the origin of the systems I'm studying. Note that -at this point- I'm not interested in the origin of the biological systems that I'm studying. I like serious philosophical discussions, because I love wisdom, but I'd rather leave that seemingly abstract 'origin' research to those who are more educated and have an 'acceptable' IQ (mine is comparable to my current age). I'm simply focused in on describing how some biological systems currently work, so that I could model and simulate them "in-silico". That's an overwhelmingly difficult task for me, because I'm not a biology scientist, but an engineer, who has worked for a number of years on software development projects for engineering design systems. The cellular and molecular biology information I'm interested in is widely disseminated all over the cyberspace, and a large portion of it -specially the most recent data- is behind paywalls, i.e., inaccessible to me, because I'm operating on a minimum budget. This makes the gathering of reliable information more difficult and slow. Please, keep in mind that vague explanations -which might sound impressive in some philosophical discussions- don't go too far in engineering software development projects. They are simply unacceptable. Regardless of how sophisticated it may sound, any description that fails the old Wendy's restaurant commercial question "where's the beef?", won't do well in engineering software development projects. Biologists should be well aware of the fact that more engineers and computer scientists are joining this revolutionary field of research. In other threads I provided a couple of specific examples of engineers and computer scientists who lead biology-related research works at some universities. There's an obvious reason why this is happening these days.Dionisio
May 19, 2014
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Junk DNA- there is no way, at present, to determine how much, if any, DNA is truly junk. I would love to see this alleged prediction of junk DNA wrt the neutral theory...Joe
May 19, 2014
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Piotr:
What is the “function” of brown eyes, for example, or the ability to roll your tongue (no just-so stories, please)?
Sexual selection, Piotr. Ever heard of that?Joe
May 19, 2014
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gpuccio:
Conservation of sequence in the course of natural history has always been considered a sign of function.
The problem with that is no one knows what the natural history was.Joe
May 19, 2014
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Curious Cat: The existence of junk DNA incurs some slight metabolic cost, so you could expect purifying selection against keeping superfluous DNA even if its sequence doesn't do anything deleterious. So from a strictly "neo-Darwinian" point of view (if you insist on using such a term) any junk DNA should be eliminated from the genome. But the cost will be different for different organisms, depending on their way of life, typical population size, etc. For most eukaryotes it is insignificant -- at any rate, not high enough for purifying selection to override the effects of neutral evolution, which allows junk to accumulate simply because it does no harm (and may even be occasionally co-opted for a function). Note that prokaryotes, which have immense effective populations and are therefore susceptible even to very slight selective pressures, keep little if any junk DNA. Also, for various other reasons, some eukaryotes have downsized genomes with little junk DNA compared to humans (not to mention onions and lungfish). So the presence of junk DNA, while predicted by nearly neutral theory, is not necessary. On the other hand, the administrators of this very forum have boasted that ID makes the following "testable prediction":
Non-functionality of “junk DNA” was predicted by Susumu Ohno (1972), Richard Dawkins (1976), Crick and Orgel (1980), Pagel and Johnstone (1992), and Ken Miller (1994), based on evolutionary presuppositions. By contrast, predictions of functionality of “junk DNA” were made based on teleological bases by Michael Denton (1986, 1998), Michael Behe (1996), John West (1998), William Dembski (1998), Richard Hirsch (2000), and Jonathan Wells (2004). These Intelligent Design predictions are being confirmed. e.g., ENCODE’s June 2007 results show substantial functionality across the genome in such “junk” DNA regions, including pseudogenes. In short, it is a matter of simple fact that scientists working in the ID paradigm – despite harassment, slander and even outright career-busting — carry out and publish research, and that they have made significant and successful ID-based predictions. ...
Leaving factual errors asside (some of the publication referred to above don't deal with junk DNA, and Dawkins, in particular, was in fact speptical of the idea, as opposed to "selfish" DNA), it seems that the ENCODE leaders are now backing down from their inflated claims and trying to blame the 2012 hype on the press. Where does that leave ID theorists with their "scientific predictions"?Piotr
May 19, 2014
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Piotr:
If presented with evidence that a new functional protein can arise naturally without intelligent design, would you agree that the whole concept of dFSCI is a house of cards?
Yes, if said protein arose in an environment that didn't have any proteins to begin with.Joe
May 19, 2014
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Piotr, sure! He is more than capable of defending himself in this matter and I am sure he will,,,, I'm just curious, don't you think Darwinists should be held to the same standard as you are holding gpuccio to? Or does evidence even matter to you? If not why not? Hopeless Matzke -David Berlinski & Tyler Hampton August 18, 2013 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/08/hopeless_matzke075631.html "Estimating the Prevalence of Protein Sequences Adopting Functional Enzyme Folds” 2004: - Doug Axe ,,,this implies the overall prevalence of sequences performing a specific function by any domain-sized fold may be as low as 1 in 10^77, adding to the body of evidence that functional folds require highly extraordinary sequences." http://www.mendeley.com/research/estimating-the-prevalence-of-protein-sequences-adopting-functional-enzyme-folds/bornagain77
May 19, 2014
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BA77: Will you please let Gpuccio speak for himself?Piotr
May 19, 2014
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Piotr @20: I said
a high signal to noise ratio (SNR) in the genes would make the Darwinist interpretation of evolution pretty much difficult to accept.
and you asked
I wonder why. Can you explain it to me?
My reasoning is as follows. Now that Darwinian mechanism is based on essentially random events (I emphasize this "essentiality" to distinguish Darwinian evolution from a certain type of teleogical evolution, which, more or less, suggests that indivial events/paths can be directed -or chosen- by God, but the whole ensemble/sequence obeys a certain probability distribution), all the evolutionary paths (chosen or not chosen) and DNA sequences are random (or random within the frame defined by fundamental physical laws). Only those sequences (signal) that are advantageous locally within a certain time frame are selected by the nature, but those that are not functional (however you define this) will be accumulated as wrong guesses/junk/noise. Since the sequence space is much much larger than the function space (Maybe we cannot agree on the exact definitions of these, but it's pretty much obvious that this holds. If you do not agree with this suggestion, I've got another design argument in my pocket .)), and a random process is more likely to produce the outcome with the higher probability (law of large numbers), it is inevitable that the resulting genome should have a very high amount of noise.CuriousCat
May 19, 2014
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Piotr you ask:
If presented with evidence that a new functional protein can arise naturally without intelligent design, would you agree that the whole concept of dFSCI is a house of cards?
gpuccio has been waiting on that 'if presented with evidence' bit for a long time, and has ably defended against each example put forward.,,, Care to present any evidence he has not seen before? Moreover, when you are shown why your purported example falls short, will you admit the whole Darwinian concept is a house of cards? Or does evidence even matter to you?bornagain77
May 19, 2014
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As I believe that even one single complex protein commands a design inference, you can understand how much more that is true for the whole functional genome.
I do not want to distract you now, but since you are making a very strong claim, I'd like to ask a simple question. If presented with evidence that a new functional protein can arise naturally without intelligent design, would you agree that the whole concept of dFSCI is a house of cards?Piotr
May 19, 2014
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CuriousCat: Thank you. In this post I do not deal directly with the design inference, but it is obvious that the more information we find in the genome, the more strict the design inference for biological beings becomes. As I believe that even one single complex protein commands a design inference, you can understand how much more that is true for the whole functional genome. You may know that I reject, on scientific ground, both the neo darwinian paradigm and any TE paradigm. I am absolutely convinced that the emergence of complex functional information, both at OOL and in the following evolution of species, absolutely requires active and multiple design interventions. Your "SNR" is the equivalent of my concept of dFSCI. I don't know what darwinists are capable to accept (probably nothing). Frankly, I don't care. I am only interested in what is reasonable and scientific. And a design paradigm is the only reasonable and scientific answer for complex biological information, however much it is. But obviously, the more the better! :)gpuccio
May 19, 2014
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Dionisio: Thank you for your comments, and for the very interesting link. It is amazing how complex and at the same time robust and functionally redundant the spindle organization is!gpuccio
May 19, 2014
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Curious Cat:
a high signal to noise ratio (SNR) in the genes would make the Darwinist interpretation of evolution pretty much difficult to accept.
I wonder why. Can you explain it to me?Piotr
May 19, 2014
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UB: Thank you. Part two is already in my mind, I most only find the time to put it down. I chose to divide the discussion in two parts to avoid excessive length in the OP.gpuccio
May 19, 2014
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Very good post gpuccio, thanks. Looking forward to the second part. I find this issue the MOST important point in Darwinian vs. teleological paradigms. After all, it is not unacceptable for a person who believes in design (not only confined to stronger sense of design -ID-, but design in a more general way) to accept common descent and take probabilistic mutations + natural selection as God's design of probability-function landscape. On the other hand, it is difficult to absorb the idea (from the design point of view) that evolution is not the result of a "specific" realization (which obeys the probabilistic rules) of this stochastic mechanism designed by God, but truly (essentially) random. There is also the other side of the coin. This point is also one of the very few observations that has the potential (almost, I should add, since Darwinian view can always find a way) to falsify the Darwinian paradigm: a high signal to noise ratio (SNR) in the genes would make the Darwinist interpretation of evolution pretty much difficult to accept. In this case, the present realization of evolution, itself, would be "fine-tuned", still random to our human eyes and mathematics, but not random in essence. Even if we agree on the definition of function (which I highly doubt, as far as it is seen in the above civilized discussion), there would still be the issue of how much SNR is acceptable in Darwinian (or teleological) view, on which, I wonder, how we will agree! So let's see where the discussion will lead...CuriousCat
May 19, 2014
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Dionoso, OT My impression is that you are focused on a mostly singular item of interest, and will collect a whole root of information along the way. If that is true, then you and I are the same in that regard. My interest was the physical conditions of a representation. Glad you're here. cheers...Upright BiPed
May 18, 2014
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