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Is functional information in DNA always conserved? (Part one)

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Conservation of sequence in the course of natural history has always been considered a sign of function. But does function always coincide with sequence conservation? And are there other important aspects which must be considered? This topic has been discussed recently with some passion here, so I will dedicate a series of two posts to it, in the hope that we can base our discussions on reliable data. I apologize in advance if some of the following discussion is necessarily rather technical.

In general, in evolutionary analysis, conservation is considered a sign of function. Protein coding genes which are more strictly conserved in the course of time are usually considered as having greater functional constraint than those genes which change more. The same is supposed to be true for non coding sequences, although the topic is much more controversial.

So, we start here considering how much of the human genome is conserved, and how that conservation relates to function. These will be the first two points in the discussion.

 

1) How much of the human genome is made of conserved sequences?

Luckily, this is a point which is well understood. After all, conservation can be evaluated objectively aligning the genomes of different species, and that has already been done with enough precision.

However, it is important to remember that the result can be somewhat different according to how we define conservation, and according to the method we use to measure it. That is perfectly normal.

A very complete paper about sequence conservation in genomes is the following:

Adam Siepel, Gill Bejerano, Jakob S. Pedersen, et al.

”Evolutionarily conserved elements in vertebrate, insect, worm, and yeast genomes”

In that paper, they evaluate conservation in vertebrate genomes. Just to make it short, they find about 4.3% of conservation in the human genome (referred to vertebrates), while allowing that:

These numbers are somewhat sensitive to the methods used for parameter estimation. Various different methods produced coverage estimates of 2.8% – 8.1% for the vertebrates, 36.9% – 53.1% for the insects, 18.4% – 36.6% for the worms, and 46.5% -67.6% for the yeasts (see Supplemental material). Note that the vertebrate coverage is similar to recent estimates of 5% – 8% for the share of the human genome that is under purifying selection (Chiaromonte et al. 2003; Roskinetal. 2003; Cooper et al. 2004), despite the use of quite different methods and datasets.

So, we can say that with most methods the  percentage of the human genome which is conserved is about 3 – 8%.

If we look carefully at Figure 3  in the same paper, and in particular to the data about vertebrates, we find other interesting information:

a) Protein coding regions (exons, in red) are highly conserved, about 68%, but they are only 18% of the conserved regions.

b) Introns are less conserved, almost 5%, and they are 28.5% of the conserved regions.

c) Unannotated regions (the rest of non coding DNA) are even less conserved, about 2,5%, and they are 41.2% of the conserved regions.

Other gene associated sequences (5’ UTR, 3’ UTR, etc.) represent smaller fractions.

So, there is no doubt that non coding DNA is less conserved than coding DNA (less than 5% versus 68%), but there is no doubt that most of conserved DNA is non coding (about 70%).

Another important point is that we are discussing here general conservation. The same paper analyzes also highly conserved elements (HCEs). They cover only 0.14% of the human genome, a much smaller fraction: About 42% of these were in gene coding or gene associated regions, and about 58% in non coding regions.

Finally, there is an even more restricted category, ultra conserved elements (UCEs), with 100% identity, which is described in this paper:

G. Bejerano et al.: “Ultraconserved elements in the human genome”.

2004 May 28;304(5675):1321-5. Epub 2004 May 6.

There are 481 segments longer than 200 base pairs (bp) that are absolutely conserved (100% identity with no insertions or deletions) between orthologous regions of the human, rat, and mouse genomes. Nearly all of these segments are also conserved in the chicken and dog genomes, with an average of 95 and 99% identity, respectively. Many are also significantly conserved in fish. These ultraconserved elements of the human genome are most often located either overlapping exons in genes involved in RNA processing or in introns or nearby genes involved in the regulation of transcription and development. Along with more than 5000 sequences of over 100 bp that are absolutely conserved among the three sequenced mammals, these represent a class of genetic elements whose functions and evolutionary origins are yet to be determined, but which are more highly conserved between these species than are proteins and appear to be essential for the ontogeny of mammals and other vertebrates.

This is an even smaller fraction of the genome.

 

2) Is there functional DNA which is not conserved,  in the human genome?

Certainly, and a lot of it!

Everybody knows that the ENCODE project has found that most of human genome is transcribed. That does not necessarily mean that it is functional, as many have pointed out.

A very recent paper from the people at ENCODE discusses the problem of function. It is:

“Defining functional DNA elements in the human genome”

The authors  in that paper use three different approaches to infer function in the human genome:

a) Evolutionary approach. That means conservation. They start with what we have already discussed at point 1, but they refer to mammalian conservation, which can be expected to be somewhat higher than vertebrate conservation. They comment:

The lower bound estimate that 5% of the human genome has been under evolutionary constraint was based on the excess conservation observed in mammalian alignments (2, 3, 87) relative to a neutral reference (typically ancestral repeats, small introns, or fourfold degenerate codon positions). However, estimates that incorporate alternate references, shape-based constraint (88), evolutionary turnover (89), or lineage-specific constraint (90) each suggests  roughly two to three times more constraint than previously (12–15%), and their union might be even larger as they each correct different aspects of alignment-based excess constraint. Moreover, the mutation rate estimates of the human genome are still uncertain and surprisingly low (91) and not inconsistent with a larger fraction of the genome under relatively weaker constraint (92). Although still weakly powered, human population studies suggest that an additional 4–11% of the genome may be under lineage-specific constraint after specifically excluding protein coding regions (90, 92, 93), and these numbers may also increase as our ability to detect human constraint increases with additional human genomes. Thus, revised models, lineage-specific constraint, and additional datasets may further increase evolution-based estimates.

Now, let’s look at Fig. 1 in the paper, a Venn diagram which sums up the results of a detailed analysis of available data. I have checked the exact numbers on which the figure is based in the Supporting Information file. the purple circle is the protein coding fraction in the genome, about 1.25%. The evolutionary conserved fraction of human genome is the red circle, and it is  7.38% of the whole genome.  The greater part of it (6.33%) is non coding DNA. That is in good accord with what reported at point 1.

b) Genetic approach. With that, the authors mean proof of modifications in phenotype with genetic alterations of the sequence. This is the “gold standard” of function. It means that function is certainly there.

The subset of genome for which there is genetic confirmation of function is the green area. I have not found the exact numbers for it in the paper, but I would say that it is about 15%. It can be seen that it somewhat overlaps the conserved circle, but at least 50% of it is not conserved and is not protein coding. As this is the gold standard, we have here a significant portion of non coding DNA which is not conserved while being certainly functional.

c) Biochemical approach. This is the traditional ENCODE approach, the one with indicates possible function in 80% of the genome. It is based on many biochemical evidences, which are explained in the paper.The blue areas indeed include about 80% of the whole genome.

However, the authors divided the blue area in three subsets, according to the level of activity detected. The dark blue area is the area with high level of activity. So, let’s consider only that subsets, leaving the other two as controversial, at present.

For the dark blue area (15.56%), evidence at transcription level and at other biochemical levels is very high. So, the inference of function can be considered very reliable. As can be seen, the dark blue area overlaps the green area and the red circle, but still about two thirds of it are out of both.

If we consider the union of these three different subsets (red circle, green area, dark blue area) we have the total portion of the genome for which there is convincing evidence of function, at the present state. It  is about 24%, and most of it is non coding.

Moreover, the percentage of functional genome can only increase in time. While the red circle (conserved elements) and the purple circle (protein coding genes) are more or less final, the green area (gold standard) can only expand, and it can potentially confirm the function of parts of the blue areas (including those with lower activity).

So, to sum up:

– At the present state of knowledge, function is extremely likely for 24% of the human genome.

– For about 15% (green area) it is certain.

Most of that functional genome (about 95% of it) is non coding.

Most of that functional genome (about 70% of it) is not conserved.

But that is not all. There are two other important points which must be addressed, and which are even more intriguing. They are:

3) Conserved function which does not imply conserved sequence.

4) Function which requires non conservation of sequence.

I will deal with them in the second part of this discussion.

Comments
Whether the genome is 98% non-functional or 0% non-functional is not a deal breaker for ID. Obviously the lower the percentage that is non functional the more credence it gives to the ID position. But even if the number is closer to 98% it does little to invalidate the ID position. I view the percentage of non functional DNA as a red herring in the debate. It makes interesting conversation but is not very relevant to the overall debate. I do not mean that it should not be pursued. Everything should be looked into. But it should be kept in perspective. We seem to spend an excessive amount of time on it when it has probably little relevance to the validity of ID or not. As an aside, the repair function is definitely something that supports ID but if it should repair non-functional DNA as well as functional DNA is irrelevant to whether ID is valid or not.jerry
May 20, 2014
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Piotr: I am happy that you set the threshold of junk at 80%. So, you agree with my assessment of at least 20% functional genome. Good to know. wd400 seemed to be less convinced even of that. About our taxon being "high": I expected someone would not agree, that's why I added "if we agree to call humans that way". However, we are at least the more recent, or among the most recent, I suppose. Don't you think that there is increasing complexity in the course of natural history? Just to know.gpuccio
May 20, 2014
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I, as well as others, hold that the existence of highly sophisticated repair mechanisms that repair 'random' mutations is a direct contradiction to neo-Darwinian claims. Yet Piotr claims that
The existence of repair mechanism is of little relevance.
These authors beg to differ:
The Evolutionary Dynamics of Digital and Nucleotide Codes: A Mutation Protection Perspective - 2011 Excerpt: “Unbounded random change of nucleotide codes through the accumulation of irreparable, advantageous, code-expanding, inheritable mutations at the level of individual nucleotides, as proposed by evolutionary theory, requires the mutation protection at the level of the individual nucleotides and at the higher levels of the code to be switched off or at least to dysfunction. Dysfunctioning mutation protection, however, is the origin of cancer and hereditary diseases, which reduce the capacity to live and to reproduce. Our mutation protection perspective of the evolutionary dynamics of digital and nucleotide codes thus reveals the presence of a paradox in evolutionary theory between the necessity and the disadvantage of dysfunctioning mutation protection. This mutation protection paradox, which is closely related with the paradox between evolvability and mutational robustness, needs further investigation.” http://www.benthamscience.com/open/toevolj/articles/V005/1TOEVOLJ.pdf
The following paper is good for giving us a glimpse as to how extremely sophisticated the repair mechanisms in the cell are:
Quantum Dots Spotlight DNA-Repair Proteins in Motion – March 2010 Excerpt: “How this system works is an important unanswered question in this field,” he said. “It has to be able to identify very small mistakes in a 3-dimensional morass of gene strands. It’s akin to spotting potholes on every street all over the country and getting them fixed before the next rush hour.” Dr. Bennett Van Houten – of note: A bacterium has about 40 team members on its pothole crew. That allows its entire genome to be scanned for errors in 20 minutes, the typical doubling time.,, These smart machines can apparently also interact with other damage control teams if they cannot fix the problem on the spot. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100311123522.htm
Our best computer programmers and systems engineers can only dream of approaching that level of sophistication. Yet, in direct contradiction to common sense, Piotr holds that, through selecting the most advantageous 'potholes', that the 'potholes' themselves somehow rose up and constructed such unfathomed complexity as is seen in a '40 team member pothole crew of "smart" machines'. Repairing random mutations in such a sophisticated fashion is not only in direct contradiction to Darwin's theory, and its reliance on random mutations in the first place, but it is also an insult to our intelligence to suggest that 'potholes' can build pothole repair machines. Surely Piotr must have some pretty impressive evidence to believe in such a preposterous notion??? Yet, as we would rightly suspect, we have no empirical evidence of 'advantageous potholes' that are on their way to building up functional complexity above and beyond that which is already present:
“The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain - Michael Behe - December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Multiple Overlapping Genetic Codes Profoundly Reduce the Probability of Beneficial Mutation George Montañez 1, Robert J. Marks II 2, Jorge Fernandez 3 and John C. Sanford 4 - May 2013 Excerpt: It is almost universally acknowledged that beneficial mutations are rare compared to deleterious mutations [1–10].,, It appears that beneficial mutations may be too rare to actually allow the accurate measurement of how rare they are [11]. 1. Kibota T, Lynch M (1996) Estimate of the genomic mutation rate deleterious to overall fitness in E. coli . Nature 381:694–696. 2. Charlesworth B, Charlesworth D (1998) Some evolutionary consequences of deleterious mutations. Genetica 103: 3–19. 3. Elena S, et al (1998) Distribution of fitness effects caused by random insertion mutations in Escherichia coli. Genetica 102/103: 349–358. 4. Gerrish P, Lenski R N (1998) The fate of competing beneficial mutations in an asexual population. Genetica 102/103:127–144. 5. Crow J (2000) The origins, patterns, and implications of human spontaneous mutation. Nature Reviews 1:40–47. 6. Bataillon T (2000) Estimation of spontaneous genome-wide mutation rate parameters: whither beneficial mutations? Heredity 84:497–501. 7. Imhof M, Schlotterer C (2001) Fitness effects of advantageous mutations in evolving Escherichia coli populations. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 98:1113–1117. 8. Orr H (2003) The distribution of fitness effects among beneficial mutations. Genetics 163: 1519–1526. 9. Keightley P, Lynch M (2003) Toward a realistic model of mutations affecting fitness. Evolution 57:683–685. 10. Barrett R, et al (2006) The distribution of beneficial mutation effects under strong selection. Genetics 174:2071–2079. 11. Bataillon T (2000) Estimation of spontaneous genome-wide mutation rate parameters: whither beneficial mutations? Heredity 84:497–501. http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/10.1142/9789814508728_0006
Thus while Piotr may personally imagine, against all common sense, that potholes can build extremely sophisticated pothole repair machines, he simply has no empirical evidence that it is even remotely feasible in reality. Piotr also claims
I never said 98% DNA was junk. I’d estimate its content at about 80%, give or take a few percent.
I wonder, if it were possible to do so, if Piotr would have the courage in his convictions to allow 80 percent of his genome to be removed?
Jonathan Wells on Darwinism, Science, and Junk DNA - November 2011 Excerpt: Mice without “junk” DNA. In 2004, Edward Rubin?] and a team of scientists at Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory in California reported that they had engineered mice missing over a million base pairs of non-protein-coding (“junk”) DNA—about 1% of the mouse genome—and that they could “see no effect in them.” But molecular biologist Barbara Knowles (who reported the same month that other regions of non-protein-coding mouse DNA were functional) cautioned that the Lawrence Berkeley study didn’t prove that non-protein-coding DNA has no function. “Those mice were alive, that’s what we know about them,” she said. “We don’t know if they have abnormalities that we don’t test for.”And University of California biomolecular engineer David Haussler? said that the deleted non-protein-coding DNA could have effects that the study missed. “Survival in the laboratory for a generation or two is not the same as successful competition in the wild for millions of years,” he argued. In 2010, Rubin was part of another team of scientists that engineered mice missing a 58,000-base stretch of so-called “junk” DNA. The team found that the DNA-deficient mice appeared normal until they (along with a control group of normal mice) were fed a high-fat, high-cholesterol diet for 20 weeks. By the end of the study, a substantially higher proportion of the DNA-deficient mice had died from heart disease. Clearly, removing so-called “junk” DNA can have effects that appear only later or under other circumstances. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/jonathan-wells-on-darwinism-science-and-junk-dna/
of related note:
Shoddy Engineering or Intelligent Design? Case of the Mouse's Eye - April 2009 Excerpt: -- The (entire) nuclear genome is thus transformed into an optical device that is designed to assist in the capturing of photons. This chromatin-based convex (focusing) lens is so well constructed that it still works when lattices of rod cells are made to be disordered. Normal cell nuclei actually scatter light. -- So the next time someone tells you that it “strains credulity” to think that more than a few pieces of “junk DNA” could be functional in the cell - remind them of the rod cell nuclei of the humble mouse. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/04/shoddy_engineering_or_intellig.html
bornagain77
May 20, 2014
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Piotr, Design is a natural process. My car did not appear via divine fiat. As for natural selection its process is differential reproduction due to heritable chance mutations.Joe
May 20, 2014
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Phoodoo: If you insist that every word that happens to have a technical meaning should be used exclusively with that meaning, you'll make exchange of thoughts impossible. Natural languages always offer some leeway for the figurative use of words. Oops! Did I say "leeway"? Leeway has a precise nautical meaning:
The sideways drift of a ship to leeward of the desired course.
Does it mean that I can't use it as I did above? So, for clarity's sake: mechanism has also a less formal meaning, not restricted to any particular field (Oxford Dictionaries online):
A natural or established process by which something takes place or is brought about
... and this is what I meant. Can you accept that, or will you start nitpicking about the technical meaning of "natural" and "process"?Piotr
May 20, 2014
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Piotr, Once again you use the word mechanism to describe natural selection. Here is what wikipedia says about the word mechanism for biology: In the science of biology, a mechanism is a system of causally interacting parts and processes that produce one or more effects. What exactly is the system, or parts or processes that are natural selection?phoodoo
May 20, 2014
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98% of useless DNA
Are you confusing noncoding DNA with useless DNA? I never said 98% DNA was junk. I'd estimate its content at about 80%, give or take a few percent. I hope you don't take the infamous Dog's Ass Plot seriously.
highest taxon
We are the "highest" among other taxa only from our anthropocentrically biassed perspective. There's nothing special about our DNA. It's all about economy. If the accumulation of junk were costlier than it is, purifying selection would gradually clean it out, but the cost is so low that the junk doesn't really matter. Most eukaryotes, no matter whether "high" or "low", tolerate it as well.Piotr
May 20, 2014
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Piotr: I anticipate you: I have messed my negations again. Should have been: "f you really can’t see that the accumulation of 98% useless DNA in the highest taxon (if we agree to call humans that way), in a biological context where a lot of error management software is present and so many refined functions are implemented, is a true problem,"gpuccio
May 20, 2014
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Piotr: You can rationalize it as you like, but if you really can't see that the accumulation of 98% useless DNA in the highest taxon (if we agree to call humans that way), in a biological context where a lot of error management software is present and so many refined functions are implemented, is no problem at all, I must say that there is something really wrong in your approach.gpuccio
May 20, 2014
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Piotr believes that a large percentage of our genomes are junk. I pointed out that his belief contradicts the fact that highly sophisticated repair mechanisms are found in life. How exactly is that not relevant? Do you think that a direct contradiction to his reasoning is not there?
The existence of repair mechanism is of little relevance. Those mechanisms can repair many kinds of physical damage (structural defects) and cancel some base substitutions, but they are not perfect; otherwise copying errors wouldn't happen at all (making even microevolutionary variation impossible). Nearly neutral theory bases its models on the known (observable) rates of mutation, and so it takes into account the operation of repair mechanisms as well.Piotr
May 20, 2014
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of note: I should point out that Sal was as guilty as Mung was of acting like a spoiled brat.bornagain77
May 20, 2014
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Thanks gpuccio. ,,, Mung all personal dislike you may have for me aside. Exactly what is not relevant in post 34? https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/is-functional-information-in-dna-always-conserved-part-one/#comment-500765 Piotr believes that a large percentage of our genomes are junk. I pointed out that his belief contradicts the fact that highly sophisticated repair mechanisms are found in life. How exactly is that not relevant? Do you think that a direct contradiction to his reasoning is not there? Just because you don't personally like me or my posting style is no reason to be dishonest towards the evidence mung!,,, Though I strongly disagree with you from time to time, Mung, I truly do appreciate your wit and references many times (which are as profuse as mine are). But, as with your ugly disagreement with Sal, mung, in which you frankly acted like a spoiled uncontrollable brat, it is clear that when you have a personal vendetta against someone, for whatever reason, that you don't care for truth so much and and that you will be petty to the point of neglecting truth. This is sad, for there is so much potential in you if you would only realize that it is not all about how you look mung but about what the truth actually is!bornagain77
May 20, 2014
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Mung:
Are you referring to the theory/theories of Tomoko Ohta?
Yes, of course, the insights that we owe to Ohta, plus later developments.Piotr
May 20, 2014
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Mung: There are circumstances in which evolution is strongly adaptive, and therefore selectionism is more or less an adequate model. And there are circumstances (like small effective populations) when it is not quite adequate. It doesn't mean that it stops working, only that other effects dominate the dynamics of the process. Neutral theory was not invented as an alternative to natural selection; the two mechanisms occur together and complement each other. It is important to understand why Darwin did not take random drift into account. In his times the mathematics of stochastic processes (even those of interest to physicists, such as Brownian motions) did not yet exist. It began to be applied to population genetics in the 1930s, and its results are somewhat counterintuitive (we humans are ill-equipped to deal with probabilities by intuition alone). Darwin realised that there were heritable fluctuations in the population, but he assumed -- naively, from our more enlightened modern point of view -- that such fluctuations were around a certain mean, and that they cancelled out in the long run in the absence of selective pressures. It's hard to blame him for not being a clairvoyant. He couldn't know about DNA either. His theory included as much as it realistically could at the time, but a good deal of progress has been made since, so the model has been extended in various ways.Piotr
May 20, 2014
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Mung at #58: If a theory which declares to be true about facts is not true about facts, then it is logically false. Neo darwinism (pan selectionism) is false as an explanation of biological information. Neutralism, while true as a theory of random variation in biology, is false as an explanation of biological information. Non design thinkers are very able in shifting different levels of truth to escape scientific falsification. That's what makes their position so "adaptable". But, in the end, their position is false. Shifting the meaning of truth while pretending it remains the same is falsity. It's an adaptable falsity, but falsity just the same.gpuccio
May 20, 2014
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Mung and Piotr: BA has his own style. You may like it or not, but it has its merits. I don't always agree with him (that is well known), but most times I do, and however I really appreciate his contributions. He has a real talent in finding sources, and providing them. OK, he accumulates them very much, and some of them are not sources I would sponsor. But many are. And there is always a sense in his accumulation, right or wrong that it may be.gpuccio
May 19, 2014
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Mung: "Is it possible to be a non-Darwinian Theistic Evolutionist?" It is certainly possible, but you should explain better what you mean by it. Then I will say if it is a position I find reasonable, or not. In my statement, I referred mainly to darwinian TEs, or any way to "naturalistic" (whatever it means) TEs. And I suppose that "The Active Designer(s)" is fine.gpuccio
May 19, 2014
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Piotr:
Nearly neutral theory explains why (and when) junk manages to accumulate in the genome and escape purifying selection.
Are you referring to the theory/theories of Tomoko Ohta? The Nearly Neutral Theory Of Molecular EvolutionMung
May 19, 2014
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Piotr:
When I refer to a strictly “neo-Darwinian” point of view, I mean the pan-selectionist bias that emphasises the adaptive aspect of evolution and plays down the effects of random drift (and mutations). That’s why Richard Dawkins, a staunch Darwinist (and proud of it) was once so sceptical of any DNA being junk. Natural selection should not tolerate junk if its presence costs anything. But this is only true if you ignore other aspects of evolution.
Well, no. Neo-Darwinism (aka pan-selectionism) is only true if it's not false leaves out the possibility that it's just nonsense, that it can be both true and false or that it can be neither true nor false. So which is it? Is neo-Darwinism false, or is it just extremely "adaptable"? I opt for the latter. It's not falsifiable. It's rather obvious isn't it, that ignoring other aspects of evolution has not falsified the neo-darwinian theory, nor has taking into account other aspects of evolution falsified the neo-darwinian theory.Mung
May 19, 2014
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Self-correction: I mean, thanks, Mung.Piotr
May 19, 2014
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Thanks, Jerry, I appreciate that. I'll be happy to respond if BA77 offers more than another broadside.Piotr
May 19, 2014
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jerry:
People who argue by mocking generally have little of substance to say. Otherwise they would not do it . In this case the mocking is validating BA.
Hardly. Here I will take Piotr's side. BA77's posting of numerous quotes and or links to numerous articles while failing to provide an actual argument makes it appear is if bornagain77 who has little of substance to say. Some people appreciate all BA77's quotes and links. No doubt there is some good material there to be had. But it's highly unreasonable to expect someone to wade through them all to try to find anything relevant while also being placed in the position of trying to infer whatever argument BA77 is making (if any) from all the posted material. Piotr has given his reasons for responding the way he does to BA77's link/quote spamming, so it's not fair to pretend like he hasn't. He gave fair warning. So yeah, mocking is probably the next best thing to ignoring. If BA77 chose to put forth an actual argument, I believe Piotr would respond. When faced with quotes and links in lieu of argument, I can't blame him for responding as he has.Mung
May 19, 2014
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gpuccio:
You may know that I reject, on scientific ground, both the neo darwinian paradigm and any TE paradigm. I am absolutely convinced that the emergence of complex functional information, both at OOL and in the following evolution of species, absolutely requires active and multiple design interventions.
What do you call this view? The Continuing Creation? The Dabbling Designer? The Active Architect? The Evolving Engineer? Is it possible to be a non-Darwinian Theistic Evolutionist?Mung
May 19, 2014
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CentralScrutinizer @ 52
Why don’t you show us what you’ve got and let’s see.
Here's a simple guideline to follow:
What is(are) the name(s) of that(those) protein(s)? How can it (they) arise? can provide link(s) to reliable source(s) for that info?
It certainly must be a very interesting process for many of us to study and learn from. Can’t wait to read about it. But most probably I won’t understand it well, so I will have to ask specific questions about it. Shouldn’t the description of such an interesting process be on a separate OP thread? Just a suggestion.Dionisio
May 19, 2014
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Piotr: If presented with evidence that a new functional protein can arise naturally without intelligent design, would you agree that the whole concept of dFSCI is a house of cards?
Why don't you show us what you've got and let's see.CentralScrutinizer
May 19, 2014
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Piotr, unguided evolution doesn't predict nor can it explain, eukaryotes.Joe
May 19, 2014
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Curious Cat @40
However, in this specific case, you seem to hold these two theories as a kind of anything goes approach.
It's nothing of the kind. We know which process dominates depending on the circumstances. We can predict, for example, that prokaryotes will normally have very little junk DNA, and eukaryotes will have a lot of it (and the amount may vary significantly even between closely related taxa). If you find a eukaryotic species with an exceptionally small genome and surprisingly little junk DNA, like the humped bladderwort, Utricularia gibba, you need to explain that. The reason, in the case of the bladderwort, can't be a vast effective population. More than one competing explanations have been suggested and only time can tell which of them (if any) is correct.Piotr
May 19, 2014
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Jerry, Australian indigenous people have separated from Africans for about 50.000 years. Is this enough time to look at which sections of the genome have “rotted” and which remain fairly constant. Not even close, I'm afriad. With 25 year generations you will end up with changes in about 1 out of 100 000 base pairs under neutrality. How much Neanderthal DNA is there? They supposedly left Africa 400-500 thousand years ago even if we assume Australia had been isolated all that time. Several whole genomes. It's still really too short a time to talk about conservation. Human and neanderthal genomes are only different in 0.03% of nucleotides (around the neutral expectation...) so it's going to be hard to tell which are conserved and which just haven't changed by chance.wd400
May 19, 2014
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CuriousCat @40 You are apparently so accustomed to branding all your opponents "Darwinists" or "neo-Darwinists" that you forget these terms mean something specific in the context of evolutionary biology. When I refer to a strictly "neo-Darwinian" point of view, I mean the pan-selectionist bias that emphasises the adaptive aspect of evolution and plays down the effects of random drift (and mutations). That's why Richard Dawkins, a staunch Darwinist (and proud of it) was once so sceptical of any DNA being junk. Natural selection should not tolerate junk if its presence costs anything. But this is only true if you ignore other aspects of evolution. Nearly neutral theory explains why (and when) junk manages to accumulate in the genome and escape purifying selection. In some circumstances selection against excess DNA may still be strong enough to delete a lot of junk without any visible harm done to its owner. That's why some closely related organisms may exhibit several-fold differences in the amount of non-functional DNA in their genomes. In T. Ryan Gregory's classic example, one onion species, the ramson, Allium ursinum, has almost twice as much DNA as the common onion, A. cepa, and more than four times as amuch as A. altyncolicum. They are otherwise very similar and have similar amounts of very similar coding DNA (and before you ask, the difference is not due to polyploidy).Piotr
May 19, 2014
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gpuccio @ 42
But the point is: functional complexity is the tool to infer design. It is the demonstration that only conscious understanding and conscious purpose can accomplish some well defined task, and generate some well defined result. If the concept works, it must work in the same way for simple proteins and for complex systems. IOWs, it must be true that complex functional information can only arise from a conscious designer. And it is true. For proteins, as much as for systems of them.
Accepted your convincing argument. Thank you. Actually, a separate thread could start with the above quote as the OP, if the moderators of this blog would agree. OT: You clearly use a very didactic style to describe difficult things. Do you lecture at a university or professional conferences?Dionisio
May 19, 2014
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