Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Is functional information in DNA always conserved? (Part two)

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

So, in the  first  part of this discussion, I have tried to show with real data from scientific literature how much of the human genome is conserved, and how that conservation is evaluated and expressed. Then I have argued that we already have good credible evidence for function in a relevant part of the human genome (let’s say about 20%), and that most of that functional part is non coding, and great part of it is non conserved. While some can disagree on the real figures, I think that it is really difficult to reject the whole argument.

But, as I have anticipated, there are two more important aspects of the issue that I want to discuss ion detail. I will do it now.

3) Conserved function which does not imply conserved sequence.

The reason why sequence is conserved when function is present is because function creates specific constraints to the sequence itself.

For example, in a protein sequence with a well defined biochemical function, some variation will be possible without affecting the protein function,  while other kinds of variation will affect it more or less.

We have many examples of important loss of function for the change of even one aminoacid:  mendelian diseases in humans are a well known, unpleasant example of that.

We have many examples of important variation in the sequence of functional proteins which does not affect the function:  the so called neutral variations in proteins. For example, there are many variants of human hemoglobin, more than 1000, most of them caused by a single aminoacid substitution. While many of them cause some disease, or at least some functional modification of the protein, at least a few of them are completely silent clinically, both in the heterozygote and in the homozygote state.

Now, there is an important consequence of that. Neutral variation happens also in functional sequences, although it happens less in those sequences. How much neutral variation can be tolerated by a functional sequnece depends on the sequence. For proteins, it is well known that some of them can vary a lot while retaining the same structure and function, while others are much more functionally constrained. Therefore, even functional proteins are more or less conserved, in the same span of time.

What about non coding genes? While we  understand much (but not all) of the sequence-structure-function relationship for proteins, here we are almost wholly ignorant. Non coding genes, when they are functional, act in very different ways, most of them not well understood. Many of them are transcribed, and we don’t understand much of the structure of the transcribed RNAs, least of all of their sequence-structure-function relationship.  IOWs, we have no idea of how functionally constrained is the sequence of a functional non coding DNA element.

While searching for pertinent literature about this issue, I have found this very recent, interesting paper:

Evolutionary conservation of long non-coding RNAs; sequence, structure, function.

The abstract (all emphasis is mine):

BACKGROUND:

Recent advances in genomewide studies have revealed the abundance of long non-coding RNAs (lncRNAs) in mammalian transcriptomes. The ENCODE Consortium has elucidated the prevalence of human lncRNA genes, which are as numerous as protein-coding genes. Surprisingly, many lncRNAs do not show the same pattern of high interspecies conservation as protein-coding genes. The absence of functional studies and the frequent lack of sequence conservation therefore make functional interpretation of these newly discovered transcripts challenging. Many investigators have suggested the presence and importance of secondary structural elements within lncRNAs, but mammalian lncRNA secondary structure remains poorly understood. It is intriguing to speculate that in this group of genes, RNA secondary structures might be preserved throughout evolution and that this might explain the lack of sequence conservation among many lncRNAs.

SCOPE OF REVIEW:

Here, we review the extent of interspecies conservation among different lncRNAs, with a focus on a subset of lncRNAs that have been functionally investigated. The function of lncRNAs is widespread and we investigate whether different forms of functionalities may beconserved.

MAJOR CONCLUSIONS:

Lack of conservation does not imbue a lack of function. We highlight several examples of lncRNAs where RNA structure appears to be the main functional unit and evolutionary constraint. We survey existing genomewide studies of mammalian lncRNA conservation and summarize their limitations. We further review specific human lncRNAs which lack evolutionary conservation beyond primates but have proven to be both functional and therapeutically relevant.

GENERAL SIGNIFICANCE:

Pioneering studies highlight a role in lncRNAs for secondary structures, and possibly the presence of functional “modules”, which are interspersed with longer and less conserved stretches of nucleotide sequences. Taken together, high-throughput analysis of conservation and functional composition of the still-mysterious lncRNA genes is only now becoming feasible.

 

So, what are we talking here? The point is simple. Function in non coding DNA can be linked to specific structures in RNA transcripts, and those structures, and therefore their function, can be conserved across species even in absence of sequence conservation. Why? Because the sequence/structure/function relationship in this kind of molecules is completely different from what we observe in proteins, and we still understand very little of those issues.

As the authors say:

In contrast to microRNAs, almost all of which are post-transcriptional repressors, the diverse functions of lncRNAs include both positive and negative regulations of protein-coding genes, and range fromlncRNA:RNA and lncRNA:
protein to lncRNA:chromatin interactions [8–11]. Due to this functional diversity, it seems reasonable to presume that different evolutionary constraints might be operative for different RNAs, such as mRNAs, microRNAs, and lncRNAs.

Which is exactly my point.

The authors examine a few cases where the sequence/structure/functional relationship of some lncRNAs has been stiudied more in detail.  They conclude:

Tens of thousands of human lncRNAs have been identified during the first genomic decade. Functional studies for most of these lncRNAs are however still lackingwith only a handful having been characterized in detail [8,10,11,87]. Fromthese few studies it is apparent that some lncRNAs are important cellular effectors ranging from splice complex formation [34] to chromatin and chromosomal complex formation [43,46] to epigenetic regulators of key cellular genes.

It is becoming increasingly apparent that lncRNAs do not show the same pattern of evolutionary conservation as protein-coding genes. Many lncRNAs have been shown to be evolutionary conserved [5]; but they do not appear to exhibit the same evolutionary constraints as mRNAs of protein-coding genes.

While certain regions of the lncRNAs appear tomaintain the regulatory function, such as bulges and loops, the exact sequence in other regions of lncRNAs appear less important and possibly act as spacers in order to link functional units or modules. Depending on the function, e.g.,whether the RNA sequence is a linker or a functional module, different patterns of conservation might be expected.

It is important to remember that lncRNA genes are only a part of non coding DNA. If someone wonders how big a part, I would suggest the following paper:

The Vast, Conserved Mammalian lincRNome

which estimates human lncRNA genes at about 53,649 genes, more than twice the number of protein coding genes, corresponding to about 2.7% of the whole genome (Figure 2). It’s an important part, but only a part. And it is a part which, while probably functional in many cases, still is poorly conserved at sequence level.

Other parts of the non coding genome will have different types of function, structure, and therefore sequence conservation. For example, the following paper:

Integrated genome analysis suggests that most conserved non-coding sequences are regulatory factor binding sites

argues that most conserved non coding regions (about 3.5% of the genome, conserved across vertebrate phylogeny, strongly suggesting its functional importance, which clusters into >700 000 unannotated conserved islands, 90% of which are <200 bp) “serve as promoter-distal regulatory factor binding sites (RFBSs) like enhancers”, rather than encoding non-coding RNAs. IOWs, these short sequences in the non coding genome which make up another 3.5% of the total would be functional not because of their RNA transcript, but directly as binding sites (enhancers and other distal regulatory elements). Now, these sequences are conserved. That proves the general point: different functions, different relationship between sequence and function, different conservation of functional elements. In general, it seems that function which expresses itself through non coding RNA transcripts is less conserved at sequence level.

And now, the last point, maybe the most important of all.

4) Function which requires non conservation of sequence.

When we analyze conservation of sequences across species as an indicator of function, we are forgetting a fundamental point: in the course of natural history, species change, and function changes with them.

IOWs, the reason why species are different is that they have different molecular functions.

So, there is some implicit contradiction in equating conservation with function. A conserved sequence is very likely to be functional, but it is not true that a function needs a conserved sequence, if it is a new function, or a function which has changed.

Now. we know that protein coding genes have not changed a lot in the last parts of natural history. It is usually recognized that the greatest change, especially in more recent taxa, is probably regulatory. And the functions which have been identified in various parts of non coding DNA are exactly that: regulatory.

So, to sum up:

– Species evolve and change

– The main tool for that change is, realistically, a change in regulatory functions

– If a function changes, the sequences on which the function is based must change too

– Therefore, those important regulatory functions which change for functional reasons will not be conserved across species

This point is different from the previous point discussed here.

In point 3, the reasoning was that the same function can be conserved even if the sequence changes, provided that the structure is conserved.

In point 4, we are saying that in many cases the sequence must change for the function to change with it.

Now, although this reasoning is quite logic and convincing, I will try to backup it with empirical observations. To that purpose, I will use two different models: HARs and the results of the recent FANTOM5 paper about the promoterome.

4a) Human Accelerated Regions (HARs).

Waht are HARs? Let’s take it from Wikipedia:

Human accelerated regions (HARs), first described in August 2006,  are a set of 49 segments of the human genome that are conserved throughout vertebrate evolution but are strikingly different in humans.

IOWs, they are sequences which were conserved in primates, and which change in humans.

Are they functional. That’s what is believed for some of them. Again, Wikipedia:

Several of the HARs encompass genes known to produce proteins important in neurodevelopment. HAR1 is an 106-base pair stretch found on the long arm of chromosome 20 overlapping with part of the RNA genes HAR1F and HAR1R. HAR1F is active in the developing human brain. The HAR1 sequence is found (and conserved) in chickens and chimpanzees but is not present in fish or frogs that have been studied. There are 18 base pair mutations different between humans and chimpanzees, far more than expected by its history of conservation.[1]

HAR2 includes HACNS1 a gene enhancer “that may have contributed to the evolution of the uniquely opposable human thumb, and possibly also modifications in the ankle or foot that allow humans to walk on two legs”. Evidence to date shows that of the 110,000 gene enhancer sequences identified in the human genome, HACNS1 has undergone the most change during the evolution of humans following the split with the ancestors of chimpanzees.[4] The substitutions in HAR2 may have resulted in loss of binding sites for a repressor, possibly due to biased gene conversion

Now, for brevity, I will not go into details, but…  “active in the developing human brain” and “may have contributed to the evolution of the uniquely opposable human thumb, and possibly also modifications in the ankle or foot that allow humans to walk on two legs” are provocative thoughts enough, and I believe that I don’t need to comment on them.

The important point is: what makes us humans different from chimps? Logic says: something which is different. Not something which is conserved.

4b) The results from FANTOM5 about the promoterome.

FANTOM5 has very recently published a series of papers with very important results. One the most important is probably the following article on Nature:

A promoter-level mammalian expression atlas

Unfortunately, the article is paywalled. I have access to it, so I will try to sum up the points which are needed for my reasoning.

So, what did they do? In brief, they used a very powerful technology, cap analysis of gene expression (CAGE), to study various aspects of the transcriptome in different human cells from different tissues and states. This is probably the most important analysis of the human transcriptome ever realized.

This particular paper focuses on a “promoter atlas”, IOWs an atlas of the expression of promoters (transcription start sites, TSSs, which control the transcription of target genes) in different tissues.

So, according to the level of expression of those promoters in different tissues and cells, they classify genes (both protein coding and non protein coding) in:

– ubiquitous-uniform (‘housekeeping’, 6%): those genes which are expressed at similar levels in most cell types

– ubiquitous non-uniform (14%): expressed in most cell types, but at different levels

– non-ubiquitous (cell-type restricted, 80%)

Each of those types includes both  C (protein coding genes) and N (non protein coding genes).

Now. that’s very interesting. Now we know that most genes (80%), both coding and non coding, are expressed only in some cell types.

But the most interesting thing, for our discussion about conservation, is that they studied the promoter expression both in human cells and in other mammals.

Now, we must look at Figure 3 in the paper. For those who cannot access the article, there is a low resolution version of this figure here  (just click on Figure 3 in the “at a glance” box;  OK, OK, it’s better than nothing!).

The figure is divided into two parts, a and b. In each part, the x axis shows the evolutionary divergence from humans (from 0 to 0.8, the grey vertical lines correspond to macaque, dog and mouse). The y axis shows “Human TSS with aligning orthologous sequence (%)”, IOWs the % conservation of each group of genes in the graph at various points of evolutionary divergence. Each line represents a different group of genes. So, the lines which remain more “horizontal” represent groups of genes which are more conserved, while those which “go down” from lest to right are those less conserved.  I hope it’s clear.

On the left (part a) genes are grouped as above: ubiquitous- uniform, etc, each category divided into C or N (coding or non coding).

What are the conserved groups? In order:  Non-ubiquitous C (green line); Ubiquitous uniform C (orange line); Ubiquitous non-uniform C (purple line).

IOWs, coding genes are more conserved, and non ubiquitous are most conserved.

That is not news.

Conversely, non coding genes are less conserved, in this order: Non-ubiquitous N (lighter green); Ubiquitous non-uniform N (lighter purple); Ubiquitous uniform N (lighter orange). This last line is definitely less conserved than the random reference (the dotted line).

This part is “Conservation by expression breadth and annotation”.

Well, what is on the right (part b)? It is “Conservation by cell-type biased expression”.

IOWs, the graph is the same, but genes are grouped in different lines according to the cell type where they are preferentially expressed.

The most conserved groups? Those with preferential expression in:  Fibroblast of periodontium, Fibroblast of gingiva, Preadipocyte, Chondrocyte, Mesenchymal cell.

The least conserved? Those with preferential expression in:  Astrocyte, Hepatocyte, Neuron, Sensory epithelial cell, Macrophage, T-cell, Blood vessel endothelial cell. In decreasing conservation order.

Does that mean something?  I leave it to you to decide. For me, I definitely see a pattern. With all due respect for fibroblasts and adipocytes, neurons and T cells smell more of specialized cells which must change in higher taxa (excuse me, Piotr, mice will accuse me of not being politically correct).

So, my humble suggestion is: the things that change more are not necessarily those less functional. In many cases, they could be exactly the opposite: the bearers of new, more complex functions.

And non coding genes are very good candidates for that role.

Comments
If that were the case there would need to be some mechanism by which the "storage" sequences were shielded from mutation, which would show up in these sorts of studies.wd400
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
05:13 PM
5
05
13
PM
PDT
wd400- There are also sequences that function as data storage.Joe
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
05:08 PM
5
05
08
PM
PDT
Semi OT? http://www.cell.com/molecular-cell/abstract/S1097-2765(14)00169-5Dionisio
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
04:46 PM
4
04
46
PM
PDT
Semi OT quote:
"In light of Doug Axe's number, and other similar results,, (1 in 10^77), it is overwhelmingly more likely than not that the mutation, random selection, mechanism will fail to produce even one gene or protein given the whole multi-billion year history of life on earth. There is not enough opportunities in the whole history of life on earth to search but a tiny fraction of the space of 10^77 possible combinations that correspond to every functional combination. Why? Well just one little number will help you put this in perspective. There have been only 10^40 organisms living in the entire history of life on earth. So if every organism, when it replicated, produced a new sequence of DNA to search that (1 in 10^77) space of possibilities, you would have only searched 10^40th of them. 10^40 over 10^77 is 1 in 10^37. Which is 10 trillion, trillion, trillion. In other words, If every organism in the history of life would have been searching for one those (functional) gene sequences we need, you would have searched 1 in 10 trillion, trillion, trillionth of the haystack. Which makes it overwhelmingly more likely than not that the (Darwinian) mechanism will fail. And if it overwhelmingly more likely than not that the (Darwinian) mechanism will fail should we believe that is the way that life arose?" Stephen Meyer - 46:19 minute mark - Darwin's Doubt - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg8bqXGrRa0&feature=player_detailpage#t=2778
bornagain77
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
04:31 PM
4
04
31
PM
PDT
[OT] Is this abstract interesting? http://www.cell.com/molecular-cell/abstract/S1097-2765(14)00394-3Dionisio
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
04:31 PM
4
04
31
PM
PDT
And, obviously, my objections remain that much depends on what type of function we are analyzing, and on how much it can change, even among population datasets. Well, if a functional sequence can accept almost any of sequence then biological function must be pretty easy to come by? It's going to be very hard to prove that 'the gnome is mostly functional' and 'biological function is highly specified' are both true... Joe, You are right that sequences that function only as spacers would not show up in the data that paper analysed. By even spacer loci incur a mutational load with regard indels and rearrangements, so the genome is unlikely to be dominated by functional elements even when function can include taking up space.wd400
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
03:33 PM
3
03
33
PM
PDT
Gpuccio: All that Larry argues in that blog post is that the difference between the genomes of chimps and humans is consistent with neutral expectations. That's because molecular evolution is predominantly neutral (if you just count mutations). He doesn't say that natural selection and adaptation haven't been taking place as well, or that adaptive evolution didn't play a decisive role in making humans different from chimps. He is more explicit about it in this post: http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2014/04/breaking-news-creationist-vincent.htmlPiotr
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
03:11 PM
3
03
11
PM
PDT
wd400: I have looked at the paper you linked. Unfortunately, I could only access the abstract. However, I read the free access paper which criticizes it (I suppose that's why you call it "a biased estimate"). Well, I cannot really judge the substance of the discussion, first of all because I could not read the whole article, and second because it is a type of analysis with which I am not familiar. Maybe I will find the time to consider it better. However: a) The paper you refer to, in the abstract, says: "Although only 5% of the human genome is conserved across mammals, a substantially larger portion is biochemically active, raising the question of whether the additional elements evolve neutrally or confer a lineage-specific fitness advantage. To address this question, we integrate human variation information from the 1000 Genomes Project and activity data from the ENCODE Project. A broad range of transcribed and regulatory nonconserved elements show decreased human diversity, suggesting lineage-specific purifying selection. Conversely, conserved elements lacking activity show increased human diversity, suggesting that some recently became nonfunctional. Regulatory elements under human constraint in nonconserved regions were found near color vision and nerve-growth genes, consistent with purifying selection for recently evolved functions. Our results suggest continued turnover in regulatory regions, with at least an additional 4% of the human genome subject to lineage-specific constraint." Emphasis mine. I am not sponsoring their conclusions, I am only trying to see what they say. The criticism by Phil Green and Brent Ewing, if I understand well, denies the validity of their findings. As far as I can understand, the main point remains the following. You say: "And if huge amounts of the human genome are functional they would still be under purifying selection now, that signal should be detectable for population datasets." Emphasis mine. OK, maybe, or maybe not. I don't know, and those two papers don't seem to give great certainties. And, obviously, my objections remain that much depends on what type of function we are analyzing, and on how much it can change, even among population datasets. However, I appreciate your contribution, and please feel free to give me any further reference which can help clarify this aspect.gpuccio
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
02:55 PM
2
02
55
PM
PDT
Piotr: I referred to this post of his, which was discussed here for a long time, together with other aspects, on VJ's posts some time ago. http://sandwalk.blogspot.it/2014_02_01_archive.htmlgpuccio
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
02:36 PM
2
02
36
PM
PDT
wd400:
And if huge amounts of the human genome are functional they would still be under purifying selection now,
How could you tell if the function isn't sequence specific?Joe
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
01:54 PM
1
01
54
PM
PDT
Gpuccio:
That’s how Moran can make a wrong argument for neutral variation being exactly that which we would expect from a non functional non coding genome.
Could you give us some sort of reference to the place where Larry Moran makes "the famous Moran argument"?Piotr
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
12:10 PM
12
12
10
PM
PDT
When you look for withing-species constraint on sequences you find an extra ~4% of the genome may be constrained: dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.1225057wd400
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
11:47 AM
11
11
47
AM
PDT
gpuccio
Interestingly, comparison between human and neandertal/denisovan genomes shows that there are fewer differences between our HARs than in the rest of the genome, which suggests that most HARS became fixed rather quickly by natural selection before our divergence from the common ancestor. One could say that they are “conserved” in the whole cluster of species most closely related to Homo sapiens.
Or one could say they are all the same species, which parsimony supports.Jehu
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
11:45 AM
11
11
45
AM
PDT
wd400: "And if huge amounts of the human genome are functional they would still be under purifying selection now, that signal should be detectable for population datasets. But even biased estimated of lineage-specific constraint add only a few extra percent." Could you please give greater details about that?gpuccio
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
11:25 AM
11
11
25
AM
PDT
gpucio
Interestingly, comparison between human and neandertal/denisovan genomes shows that there are fewer differences between our HARs than in the rest of the genome, which suggests that most HARS became fixed rather quickly by natural selection before our divergence from the common ancestor. One could say that they are “conserved” in the whole cluster of species most closely related to Homo sapiens.
Or one could say they are all the same species, which parsimony supports.Jehu
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
11:13 AM
11
11
13
AM
PDT
Now, if you ascribe the total variation to neutral variation, you can easily think that it is justified by the whole non coding genome being non functional. No one thinks this. And if huge amounts of the human genome are functional they would still be under purifying selection now, that signal should be detectable for population datasets. But even biased estimated of lineage-specific constraint add only a few extra percent. That’s how things which “have been known for some time” are completely ignored when a general scenario is considered, if the only purpose is to support the existing theories. I have no idea what this means.wd400
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
11:12 AM
11
11
12
AM
PDT
wd400: Well, maybe something more: (a) gene regulation is important, and we don't know ell on which parts of the genome it is based (rememder, the genome is one, and human transcriptomes are at leas 500). (b) gene regulation could very reasonably be based on sequences which are part of non coding DNA (indeed, there are already many evidences of that) (c) while part of the regulatory sequences can well be conserved, many others will have to change, because change in phenotypes is mainly based on change in regulations. Indeed, evolutionary change requires, I know, change. (d) therefore, if (b) is correct, then part of non coding DNA (we don't know how much) will change across species for functional reasons, and not for neutral evolution. (e) Let's say that we have non coding DNA which is made of the following components: 1) Non functional, subject to neutral variation and changing with it 2) Functional and conserved across species 3) Functional, and quickly changing across species for functional reasons. We have a total variation which is essentially the sum of 1) and 3). At the same time, we have a non functional genome which is subject to neutral variation which is essentially 1). IOWs, the total (non coding) genome, minus 2) and 3). Now, if you ascribe the total variation to neutral variation, you can easily think that it is justified by the whole non coding genome being non functional. But if you subtract the variation in 3) to the total variaton, you get the true neutral variation, which is smaller (maybe much smaller, you know, with all the procedures to get those transcriptomes, and the rest, having to be in 3) ). But that would be compensated by the fact that the true non functional genome is smaller too (maybe much smaller). That's how Moran can make a wrong argument for neutral variation being exactly that which we would expect from a non functional non coding genome. That's how things which "have been known for some time" are completely ignored when a general scenario is considered, if the only purpose is to support the existing theories. As I have written to Piotr, in post 33: "The point is: paradigms do matter in scientific reasoning, and it is very important to choose the right paradigm, because wrong paradigms only lead to deformation of facts and of their interpretation."gpuccio
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
10:31 AM
10
10
31
AM
PDT
Piotr, Nice stories however science requires evidence and all you have is to throw time at any issue. wd400- (a) gene regulation is evidence for Intelligent Design (b) Intelligent Design is not anti-evolution.Joe
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
09:54 AM
9
09
54
AM
PDT
I will try to explain again my point very simply, with reference to the FANTOM5 data I have discussed... OK, but this seems to establish that (a) gene regulation is important (b) evolutinary change requires, you know, change. This has been known for some time, so I'm not sure what you are trying to establish here.wd400
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
09:22 AM
9
09
22
AM
PDT
BA and Piotr: Very interesting article. It's amazing how genomes and transcriptomes can be analyzed in detail with the recent technologies. I expect that in 1 or 2 years we will have a lot of new knowledge to reflect upon. That's really good. I would like to share this piece of information from the paper (supplementary material): Pleurobrachia-Specific Genes* (NR/SP) 10, 897/11,957 (56%/61.2%) Gene Homologs to Metazoa* (NR/SP) 8,626/7,566 (44%/38.8%) *based on BLAST of the gene models to NR and SwissProt, with an evalue cutoff of 1e-04 (NR: 8,626 shared, 10,897 unique; SwissProt: 7,566 shared, 11,957 unique) IOWs, Pleurobrachia have more or less the same number of genes as we have (about 20000), but about 60% of them are unique of Pleurobrachia. NR and SwissProt refers to the two different protein databases which were used to blast the genes, NCBI-NR and UniProtKB/SwissProt. And the result does not change choosing a much higher evalue cutoff (1): the percent of unique genes remains essentially the same, 55.5% / 60.8% in the two databases.gpuccio
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
07:13 AM
7
07
13
AM
PDT
BA77: Nice stuff, thanks! Phylogenetic hypotheses change all the time. What else would you expect? The idea that Ctenophora may be a sister group to all the remaining animals (including sponges) has been around for some time. If their nervous system developed independently, the idea gains further support, since we do not have to puzzle over the absence of a nervous system in sponges. Still, I don't think the controversy is over. Stem ctenophores must have existed already in the Proterozoic, but the group is small today (in comparison with sponges, cnidarians and bilaterians) and it seems that all the living ctenophores had their last common ancestor quite recently -- possibly in the Paleocene, after the K/T mass extinction (which may have killed off all other comb jellies). What happened in their lineage during the long time -- some 600 million years at the very least -- between their putative separation from the rest of animals and the common ancestor of the crown group, is hard to reconstruct. What looks like genomic gain in other animals may actually be massive genomic loss during the "dark ages" of the ctenophore lineage.Piotr
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
06:49 AM
6
06
49
AM
PDT
BA: Thank you. I hope sometimes you will tell us how you succeed in finding all these interesting sources. :)gpuccio
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
06:31 AM
6
06
31
AM
PDT
semi related: 'Aliens of sea' provide new insight into evolution - May 22, 2014 Excerpt: in an in-depth look at the genes of 10 comb jelly species, researchers report that these mysterious creatures evolved a unique nervous system in a completely different way than the rest of the animal kingdom. In other words, the nervous system evolved more than once, a finding published Wednesday by the journal Nature that challenges long-standing theories about animal development. http://phys.org/news/2014-05-aliens-sea-insight-evolution.html#jCp But apparently that challenge to 'long standing theories' is never allowed to challenge the theory of evolution itself.bornagain77
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
05:30 AM
5
05
30
AM
PDT
Piotr: Yes, I mean that they receive information from the environment and process it. I suppose it's more or less what you mean with "learn" and "remember" (which, however, are consciousness related terms, which I would never use for algorithmic non conscious activities; but that's another story).gpuccio
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
04:51 AM
4
04
51
AM
PDT
Piotr, Is there a way we can test the claim that natural selection (or any other materialistic processes) produced either the nervous or the immune systems? If there is what is it? If there isn't then it isn't science.Joe
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
04:39 AM
4
04
39
AM
PDT
Again, nervous system and immune system. Is it a case that they are the most complex and adaptive systems we know of?
I don't know about complex -- it depends on how you define the metric. As for adaptive -- OK, they are adaptive in the technical sense: they can "learn" and "remember" (I hope this is what you mean).Piotr
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
03:03 AM
3
03
03
AM
PDT
Piotr: OK, I will accept that as a partial agreement! Especially the "spectacular" part. But the same trend, and even more evident, is true for macrophages and T cells. Again, nervous system and immune system. Is it a case that they are the most complex and adaptive systems we know of?gpuccio
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
02:38 AM
2
02
38
AM
PDT
f) We can maybe agree that the fact that the neuron transcriptome has changed more, in humans, than the fibroblast transcriptome, could reasonably be related to the fact that brain architecture is very different in the three species, and especially in humans vs the other two.
To say that (the part in bold), you'd have to compare all those species pairwise. It seems, from what I've read, that the "neuron transcriptome" is less constrained by long-term conservation than some other parts of the transcriptome (say, that involved in the production of fibroblasts): not "especially" in humans (though here the results have been particularly spectacular) but more generally in mammals (at least). In other words, neuronal organisation enjoys more "experimental freedom" than some other tissues.Piotr
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
02:31 AM
2
02
31
AM
PDT
Piotr and wd400: I will try to explain again my point very simply, with reference to the FANTOM5 data I have discussed. a) We have about 500 different transcirptomes in human cells, according to the FANTOM5 categorization. b) We can maybe agree that some seqeucnes in the genome explain those different transcriptomes (what I call "the procedures"). c) We can maybe agree that there are different porganizations of the brain in mouse, dog and human. d) We can maybe agree that those differences are probably related to different transcriptomes in cells, and specifically in the neurons, and therefore to the DNA sequences that control transcriptomes. e) We can see from Figure 3 in the FANTOM5 paper that human neurons show, as measured in the paper, about 45% conservation between humans and dogs, and 40% conservation between humans and mice, while, for example, fibroblasts are at 60% in dogs and 55% in mice. That's a 20% difference in transcriptome conservation between the tow cell types. f) We can maybe agree that the fact that the neuron transcriptome has changed more, in humans, than the fibroblast transcriptome, could reasonably be related to the fact that brain architecture is very different in the three species, and especially in humans vs the other two. g) We can maybe agree, therefore, that there must be sequence differences in the human genome and, say, the mouse genome which are linked to that difference in neuron transcriptome, and therefore reasonably to the differences in brain structure. e) If we have some appreciation for human brain abilities, we can maybe agree in calling those differences "functional". f) We can maybe agree that, unless and until we understand what those differences are, and how many they are, it is very likely that those differences will appear just as neutral variation, and be considered as such under the current methodology. OK, maybe I have assumed too much agreement. I have always been an optimist. However, I hope that the above points may be useful to clarify better my thoughts.gpuccio
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
02:11 AM
2
02
11
AM
PDT
Piotr: First of all, thanks for the link. It is interesting. You say:
Where indeed? Please tell us where those procedures are written. Can we perhaps see some of them? Sorry, Gpuccio, but you are sinking into gibberish.
What gibberish? I wrote: "ignores the problem of where the procedures are written, those procedures which make a mouse a mouse, a dog a dog, and a human a human." Emphasis added. A problem is a problem. I have been saying for years that we don't understand where and how the procedures are written. That's the problem. Denying that the procedures exist is not a good solution. Or are you suggesting that there is no difference between "mice and men"? Non coding DNA is the best candidate for the procedures. We are beginning to understand something of that, but I would heartily agree that we are still in the dark about the most important aspects of the issue. What is gibberish about that? Or is any serious question about what we don't understand, motivated by serious observations in reality, qualify as gibberish?
So someone’s been patiently manipulating billions of genomes over billions of years by psychokinetic means in order to achieve feats like making the 1,500 species of Drosophila different from each other, or to make the bibymalagasy a bibymalagasy (presumably for a reason, but only to let it go extinct when he’s bored with the bibymalagasy project).
Yes. But I don't agree about the final part. There is no special reason to believe that the extinction of species is designed. It's the generation of functional information which requires design, not its destruction. That can well be "natural". For example, I believe that the Ediacara explosion, and its extinction, are examples of very good design and of its failure. Design projects may fail even if the designer is not at all bored by them. Usually the designer, if not easily discouraged, tries again (see Cambrian explosion). And I can agree about the "psychokinetic means" only if you admit that the same "psychokinetic means" can be working in human brains. By the way, thank you for the mention of the bibymalagasy. I did not know of it, but the name is really something. Always good to discuss with a linguist!gpuccio
May 22, 2014
May
05
May
22
22
2014
12:59 AM
12
12
59
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5

Leave a Reply