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Is There At Least One Self-Evident Moral Truth?

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Many scholars believe Dostoevsky’s The Brothers Karamazov is the greatest novel ever written.  I don’t know if that is true.  I am not qualified to judge, but I do know the novel moved me as no other ever has.  So I was intrigued when SteveB referred to a passage from the novel in a comment to my earlier post.  In this passage Ivan is exploring man’s capacity for cruelty, and he says to his brother Alyosha (warning, not for the faint of heart):

People talk sometimes of bestial cruelty, but that’s a great injustice and insult to the beasts; a beast can never be so cruel as a man, so artistically cruel.  The tiger only tears and gnaws, that’s all he can do.  He would never think of nailing people by the ears, even if he were able to do it.  These Turks took a pleasure in torturing children, too; cutting the unborn child from the mother’s womb, and tossing babies up in the air and catching them on the points of their bayonets before their mother’s eyes.  Doing it before the mother’s eyes was what gave zest to the amusement. Here is another scene that I thought very interesting. Imagine a trembling mother with her baby in her arms, a circle of invading Turks around her. They’ve planned a diversion; they pet the baby, laugh to make it laugh. They succeed, the baby laughs. At that moment a Turk points a pistol four inches from the baby’s face. The baby laughs with glee, holds out its little hands to the pistol, and he pulls the trigger in the baby’s face and blows out its brains. Artistic, wasn’t it? By the way, Turks are particularly fond of sweet things, they say.

I have read that Dostoevsky did not make this up.  This actually happened and he adopted the story for his novel.

SteveB asked Jack Krebs whether he believed the soldiers were wrong.  Jack said they were, and then he said something very interesting.  He said, “I choose my moral standards.”

I replied:  “Jack, this is an interesting statement.  Are you suggesting that it is possible for you to choose moral standards in which it is good for the soldier to kill the baby?”

Jack responded:  “And no to Barry’s question – I could not choose moral standards that would make it ‘good’ for the soldier to kill the baby.”

I probed further:  “You say ‘I could not choose . . .’  OK.  But what about our soldier?  Is he free to choose moral standards just like you, including moral standards in which baby killing is good?”

To which Jack responded:  “He is free to choose, and he may think what he does is ‘good,’ but I will . . . strenuously disagree”

This is, of course, nonsense.  There are certain things that, as Dr. J. Budziszewski says, “you can’t not know.”  You can’t not know that ripping babies from their mother’s arms, throwing them in the air and catching them on a bayonet is evil.  Everyone reading this post knows this to be true without the slightest doubt or reservation.  Jack is simply and obviously wrong when he says a soldier is free to choose moral standards in which such an act is good.  There is no such freedom. 

Anyone who says that it is not self-evident that the soldier’s act was evil is lying.  It is quite literally unthinkable to imagine a moral system in which such an act is good.

Just as the statement “two plus two equals eight” is wrong in an absolute sense, the soldier’s act was evil in an absolute sense.  The fact that the soldier’s act was evil transcends time, place, circumstances, opinion, and every other variable one might imagine.  From this I conclude the act violated a transcendent moral standard, and from this I further conclude that a transcendent moral standard exists.

ADDENDUM:

Most of the first 62 comments completely missed the point of this post, so I will try to focus the discussion onto the point of the post by posing the question in a debate format:

A soldier amuses himself by ripping a baby from his mother’s arms and tossing it in the air and catching it on a bayonet.

Resolved, it is self-evident that the soldier’s action is wrong in all places and at all times.

Commenters are free to argue the affirmative or the negative.  They are not free to change the subject by, for example, dragging us into a discusion of the Old Testament or changing the facts and asking “what about this?”  Comments after comment 62 that do not argue either the affirmative or the negative will be deleted.

Comments
StephenB - I'd be glad to respond on the other thread if you'd like to post over there.Jack Krebs
May 8, 2008
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But I'll tell you why I'm not participating in this thread - it's because I refuse to participate in discussing something as repugnant as killing babies. I have a daughter who is six months pregnant with her first child, and my first grandchild, and she is tickled pink to be a mother and to be growing a baby. I am not about to have the image of the scene from the Brothers Karamazov in my head hour after hour. Also, for what it's worth, I read the Brothers Karamozov as a senior in high school, many years ago, and was deeply influenced by the experience. In fact, I wrote the essay for my AP English exam on the book. The scene with the baby was horrifically powerful then, and it and a number of other experiences were part of my becoming firmly opposed to war. So if people want to come back to the BarryA Responds to DaveScot thread and take up the conversation we were engaged in there, I'm willing. But I'm not participating in this thread.Jack Krebs
May 8, 2008
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Barry, I'm not surprised to see the discussion is still active. I'm also not surprised to see you still missing the point, so I'll try again. In your eyes (and mine) bayoneting babies for fun is always wrong. In your Turkish soldier's eyes it is not, as his enemy is less than human and killing the enemy (at whatever age) for sport is no more evil for him than Dick Cheney shooting a pen-raised quail for sport is evil for the Dark Lord. In your eyes the nuclear incineration babies "may be a relative good" and thus somehow acceptable, but in the eyes of another reasonable person it is self evident that is always an evil act given the innocence of the victim. The whole problem with the question of evil for theists is that there are manifestly no absolutes. An act that we 'all' find obviously abhorrent today (slavery) was a social norm for some of the men we still honor with holidays and pictures on our money. That’s why the Ten Commandments are never treated as absolute values even by those who profess to believe in them. They cannot be read rationally without a set of post facto qualifiers: thou shalt not kill (except when the state tells you to do so); For six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work (unless you are, say, a surgeon who must perform life saving surgery on an accident victim). Pretty quickly any notion of self-evident absolutes are drowning in a sea of socially constructed relativism.greyman
May 8, 2008
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-----Jack Krebs: "I am not a materialist. There seems to be a strong tendency to jump to conclusions about people based on prejudice rather than actually trying to find out, and perhaps even trying to understand, what they believe." Yes, there does seem to be a lot of that going around. On the last post, for example, someone suggested that you were pro-choice on abortion, but you hastened to remind him that he had no way of knowing. So tell me. What is your metaphysical position and how do you feel about abortion? Inasmuch as there are only two options (metaphysical dualism, metaphysical materialism) (pro-choice, pro-life), the answer is bound to be instructive.StephenB
May 8, 2008
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There seems to be a strong tendency to jump to conclusions about people based on prejudice rather than actually trying to find out, and perhaps even trying to understand, what they believe.
You appear to be a little slow on the uptake, Jack. If you don't agree with the commenters here, you are (self-evidently) a materialist. And probably a Nazi, too.specs
May 8, 2008
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P.S. Barry's quote starts with, "What is the matter with the materialists?" I am not a materialist. There seems to be a strong tendency to jump to conclusions about people based on prejudice rather than actually trying to find out, and perhaps even trying to understand, what they believe.Jack Krebs
May 8, 2008
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Barry asks, "Jack, where are you? Bob O’H, what about you?" I'm back in the thread from which this started, about the existence of self-evident truths. I made it clear that I welcomed further discussion back there.Jack Krebs
May 8, 2008
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-----"In terms of your proposition, isn’t cruelty or evil a measure of the motivation behind the actions, and not simply a description of the actions?" Barry A already covered that ground when he explained that the killing for done for fun. In any case, we have words for acts that are intrinsically evil (murder) and words for acts that are conditionally evil (killing). Thus, killing a baby for purposes of entertainment is necessarily immoral. Killing a solider in the line of duty or defending oneself from an agressor may or may not be immoral, depending on the intent behind the act.StephenB
May 8, 2008
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Barry, I'm not changing the subject. You asked a question about self-evidence (in the title), and "always wrong" (in 69, regarding morality) I'm asking whether the self-evidence lies in the action, or in the intentions behind the action. It is important, because similar actions can result from wholly different intentions. A mentaly deficient soldier could do the same actions and his actions would not necessarily be evil. The self-evidence of identical results is lost. However, if the self-evidence lies in the intentions of the soldier, then a different answer may result. So, when you ask about self-evident morality of the soldier tossing babies and catching them, are asking about his actions, or of his intentions? BTW - this is not a materialist question. It is philosophical, and essential to the crux of the argument.Cue
May 8, 2008
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In 77 Cue asks, "What if the soldier is mentally deficient?" He's not. Now what Cue? Will you come up with yet another "change the subject" distraction? What is the matter with the materialists? Surely you are not running from the challenge. Come in here and argue the negative. Jack, where are you? Bob O'H, what about you? BarryA
May 8, 2008
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Barry A 72, "I don’t know about you, but I am genuinely frightened about the future." Same here---though I prefer optimism. This is why Ben Stein's Expelled is so important---it really clarifies the direction our society has been going for the past 40 years or so and where this will take us. There's been a dumbing down---philosophically and morally. The good news, however, is that there is so much more wonderful resources coming out these days. ID and Ben Stein's documentary were as needed then as now but there was really nothing like that back then. Let's hope it's not too late!Rude
May 8, 2008
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BarryA, It is not necessary to assume that the the action is either good or bad. There is also a neutral position to consider. For instance, the actions of the soldier are comparable in form to the actions of an orca repeatedly smashing a seal around with with its tail with no intent to eat the seal. This similar action, being of a wild beast, may need to be called neutral - or, being that the beast has some intelligence, it may truly be evil. Here's an example of an orca abusing a seal: http://youtube.com/watch?v=FfycZ5OeRLo One option is to consider the orca's actions to be neutral - neither good nor bad. And as the soldier's actions are comparable, we likewise might consider his actions to be neutral. I'm suggesting that to be reasonable, because I'm suggesting that the attribute of cruel or evil or wrong lies elsewhere in the event. Specifically, I'm suggesting that the difference in the orca's behavior and the soldier's behavior is their intent. I'm suggesting that the attribute of "evil" or "cruel" or "morally wrong" lies in the mind of the actor, and not simply in his results. Instead, the result of the intent is simply an action - a baby can be impaled intentionally by tossing it and catching it, it can be impaled by accident by falling into a sharp object, or it can be "brutalized" by an orca. I don't think we would argue that all of those action are evil, or cruel, or morally wrong. However, by arguing intent, we may tend to agree more. To address your question of self-evident truth, I'm suggesting that it is possible that such a soldier could be mentally deficient so that his actions are more automatic than intentional. If so, he may nothave the intent to form "cruel" or "evil" thoughts, so wouldn't the event simply be "sad"? In terms of your proposition, isn't cruelty or evil a measure of the motivation behind the actions, and not simply a description of the actions?Cue
May 8, 2008
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-----Congregate: "Assuming the soldier did it solely for his amusement, it would be wrong to do what you describe. It is wrong to impose such harsh costs on another person for such a small benefit to oneself. -----What is the point of the post?" The point of the post was to propose an objective, self-evident standard for morality and to refute, among other things, the kind of utilitarianism implied in your cost/benefit analysis.StephenB
May 8, 2008
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Born I'd tell you one name for a perfect world with no death and no destruction but I'd get my comment deleted if I did according to the rules here.DaveScot
May 8, 2008
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Assuming the soldier did it solely for his amusement, it would be wrong to do what you describe. It is wrong to impose such harsh costs on another person for such a small benefit to oneself. What is the point of the post?congregate
May 8, 2008
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Dave stated: In a perfect world there’d be none of it. And what would this perfect world be called that you are judging this imperfect world by? Enchanted Journey Poem - Sarah Brightman Background http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzQuM7DG5aMbornagain77
May 8, 2008
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Rude: "And so when you do the reductio ad Hitlerum they’re not even nonplussed—hordes of them now no longer agree that Hitler was wrong: They just disagree." This reflects my experience too. I don't know about you, but I am genuinely frightened about the future.BarryA
May 8, 2008
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Interesting discussion above---including the off topic stuff. Anyway Barry A, The materialist who believes variation and Natural Selection explain it all (with no need for transcendant logic, esthetics, ethics) must of course challenge you—that’s precisely what today’s mindless college students do all the time: “Well, I feel it’s wrong, but I cannot speak for others …” You know, don’t you? that if it’s part of one’s culture that settles it. And so when you do the reductio ad Hitlerum they’re not even nonplussed—hordes of them now no longer agree that Hitler was wrong: They just disagree. But I agree with Budziszewski. Nevertheless the problem is education which so easily subverts what we cannot not know—it justifies desires that are not always in accord with Lewis’ Tao. Darwinian indoctrination disposes one to reject it on logical grounds, the teaching of terrorists convinces others that the Deity favors strapping the suicide belt on the little ones. You may not get too many here to dispute your “Resolved, it is self-evident that the soldier’s action is wrong in all places and at all times.” But you won’t convince the convinced Darwinist or multiculturalist or postmodernist or other relativist. If you’re wanting one of them to debate you all he has to do is say, “I don’t agree—it’s not self-evident to me.” And we will say, “Yes it is!” And he’ll say, “No it isn’t!” How can you win with our schools in the shape they are?Rude
May 8, 2008
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Dave please stop! "In a perfect world there’d be none of it." How do you know this? Here once again you are assuming a transcendent law. "My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?" " Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself. – The Problem of Pain" - LewisBorne
May 8, 2008
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OK DaveScot, let's take it one step further. Let's say for the sake of the argument everyone in the world except you and I believed the following proposition: "Under circumstance X bayoneting babies for fun in front of their mother is a good thing." Is it always wrong nevertheless?BarryA
May 8, 2008
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Reposted (and edited) here from previous thread at Barry’s request... Jack Krebs, Thanks for the great discussion Jack, and yes, it was Dostoyevsky, which I remembered soon after I pressed “submit.” Story of my life...
He [the soldier] is free to choose, and he may think what he does is “good,” but I will not only strenuously disagree, I will also do what I can to get society as a whole to agree with me - agree with me enough to do something about it in terms of punishment and prevention.
Imagine attempting to reason with such a soldier: as you strenuously disagree, upon what basis would you build your argument? Seems to be that any such dissenter has two basic options: (1) Appeal to a standard that is shared by both of you, that is known to the soldier as well as to you, but that for whatever reason, he is choosing not to follow. This standard, which you yourself seem to at least recognize (in selecting Option 1)* is independent of time, culture and circumstance—ie, a transcendent standard. (2) Appeal to something non-transcendent—something rooted in time, culture and circumstance like majority rule, personal pursuasiveness or idiosyncratic opinion. If you make a #1-style appeal, you broadly agree with me. If you make a #2-style appeal, what’s to keep the soldier from asking (legitimately, IMO), “Why should I give a damn about your opinion? I make moral choices based on a conglomeration of things that make up my nature, but ultimately I choose, period, without recourse to transcendent standards."** I choose, period. Kind of sounds to me like the conversation comes to a screeching halt right there. How do you answer the soldier? Can you answer the soldier? -SteveB *Yes, this was my choice too. See, we do have common ground ;-), and thus, while I agree with much of Barry’s line of reasoning, we part company on this point. Our shared humanity guarantees at least some amount of common ground upon which to have these discussions. Thanks again, -sb. **https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/barrya-responds-to-davescott/#comment-287891)SteveB
May 8, 2008
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BarryA Of course bayoneting babies in front of their mothers is wrong. Death and destruction is all wrong in any form. In a perfect world there'd be none of it.DaveScot
May 8, 2008
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Specs asks: "Just to clarify the rules, will the commenter also be expelled?" Maybe.BarryA
May 8, 2008
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Comments after comment 62 that do not argue either the affirmative or the negative will be deleted.
Just to clarify the rules, will the commenter also be expelled?specs
May 8, 2008
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-----Barry A: "Resolved, amusing oneself by ripping a baby from his mothers arms, tossing it in the air and catching it on a bayonet is absolutely wrong and this is self-evident." I am glad that you reduced it to this level, though it should not have been necessary. There are only three possible answers. [A] Its OK [B} I'm personally opposed, but----- [C] It's wrong. All the skeptics are taking position [B} Thus, they reveal that they are moral relativists at heart, and that they do no believe in the principle of justice at any level. You can't justify freedom, protect human rights, or establish a well-ordered society around the principle "I'm personally opposed but----- Either slavery is wrong, or it isn't. Either killing babies for fun (or for that matter convenience) is wrong or it isn't. When relativists deny the natural moral law, they always end up arguing for arbitrarily based laws that reflect their personal "feelings." Since their feelings violate the natural moral law and all standards of good sense, they must establish dictatorships to keep civilized people from reminding them about how irrational they are. Can you imagine Thomas Jefferson saying, "I'm personally opposed to tyranny, but......... Can you imagine Martin Luther King saying, "I'm personally opposed to institutionalized slavery, but...... How about this one: "We hold these truths to be personally preferable, that all men are created equal"....... Without the natural moral law, we have nothing. The enemies of the natural moral law are the enemies of freedom.StephenB
May 8, 2008
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Regarding 8, 11, and 24: Even after I explicitly point out that DaveScot's attempts to challenge an objective moral standard by citing extreme or unusual examples is invalid as it relates to the point in question, he turns around and cites yet another such example (this time purely hypothetical). I take it then, that there is no more substantive position available to him. Re-read my post 11. Does anyone have anything else to offer against an objective moral standard other than coming up with fringe examples where (i) either it is difficult to apply the standard, or (ii) someone wilfully chooses not to follow the standard?Eric Anderson
May 8, 2008
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In response to BarryA's resolution in 59 above: I don't think there any any naysayers. However, I understand that one contributor argued earlier that BarryA's formulation was too specific, and that it therefore proved too little: a moral faculty which can apprehend self-evident moral truths only in specific situations isn't much use in practice, when we have so many moral problems on our plate. My post at 42 above (which took a couple of hours to get through) attempts to refute this skeptical argument, and offers a more universal formulation in keeping with the spirit of BarryA's resolution in 59.vjtorley
May 8, 2008
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All future Old Testament comments will be deleted.BarryA
May 8, 2008
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Barry: One may choose to deny a self-evident truth. But the resulting absurdity will speak, more eloquently than a direct proof can. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 8, 2008
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OK People. Focus. The purpose of this post is not to argue theology. It is to determine if we can all agree that there is at least one self-evident truth: Let me see if I can get us back on track by formulating it as a debate resolution: Resolved, amusing oneself by ripping a baby from his mothers arms, tossing it in the air and catching it on a bayonet is absolutely wrong and this is self-evident. Does anyone care to argue for the negative?BarryA
May 8, 2008
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