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Is There At Least One Self-Evident Moral Truth?

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Many scholars believe Dostoevsky’s The Brothers Karamazov is the greatest novel ever written.  I don’t know if that is true.  I am not qualified to judge, but I do know the novel moved me as no other ever has.  So I was intrigued when SteveB referred to a passage from the novel in a comment to my earlier post.  In this passage Ivan is exploring man’s capacity for cruelty, and he says to his brother Alyosha (warning, not for the faint of heart):

People talk sometimes of bestial cruelty, but that’s a great injustice and insult to the beasts; a beast can never be so cruel as a man, so artistically cruel.  The tiger only tears and gnaws, that’s all he can do.  He would never think of nailing people by the ears, even if he were able to do it.  These Turks took a pleasure in torturing children, too; cutting the unborn child from the mother’s womb, and tossing babies up in the air and catching them on the points of their bayonets before their mother’s eyes.  Doing it before the mother’s eyes was what gave zest to the amusement. Here is another scene that I thought very interesting. Imagine a trembling mother with her baby in her arms, a circle of invading Turks around her. They’ve planned a diversion; they pet the baby, laugh to make it laugh. They succeed, the baby laughs. At that moment a Turk points a pistol four inches from the baby’s face. The baby laughs with glee, holds out its little hands to the pistol, and he pulls the trigger in the baby’s face and blows out its brains. Artistic, wasn’t it? By the way, Turks are particularly fond of sweet things, they say.

I have read that Dostoevsky did not make this up.  This actually happened and he adopted the story for his novel.

SteveB asked Jack Krebs whether he believed the soldiers were wrong.  Jack said they were, and then he said something very interesting.  He said, “I choose my moral standards.”

I replied:  “Jack, this is an interesting statement.  Are you suggesting that it is possible for you to choose moral standards in which it is good for the soldier to kill the baby?”

Jack responded:  “And no to Barry’s question – I could not choose moral standards that would make it ‘good’ for the soldier to kill the baby.”

I probed further:  “You say ‘I could not choose . . .’  OK.  But what about our soldier?  Is he free to choose moral standards just like you, including moral standards in which baby killing is good?”

To which Jack responded:  “He is free to choose, and he may think what he does is ‘good,’ but I will . . . strenuously disagree”

This is, of course, nonsense.  There are certain things that, as Dr. J. Budziszewski says, “you can’t not know.”  You can’t not know that ripping babies from their mother’s arms, throwing them in the air and catching them on a bayonet is evil.  Everyone reading this post knows this to be true without the slightest doubt or reservation.  Jack is simply and obviously wrong when he says a soldier is free to choose moral standards in which such an act is good.  There is no such freedom. 

Anyone who says that it is not self-evident that the soldier’s act was evil is lying.  It is quite literally unthinkable to imagine a moral system in which such an act is good.

Just as the statement “two plus two equals eight” is wrong in an absolute sense, the soldier’s act was evil in an absolute sense.  The fact that the soldier’s act was evil transcends time, place, circumstances, opinion, and every other variable one might imagine.  From this I conclude the act violated a transcendent moral standard, and from this I further conclude that a transcendent moral standard exists.

ADDENDUM:

Most of the first 62 comments completely missed the point of this post, so I will try to focus the discussion onto the point of the post by posing the question in a debate format:

A soldier amuses himself by ripping a baby from his mother’s arms and tossing it in the air and catching it on a bayonet.

Resolved, it is self-evident that the soldier’s action is wrong in all places and at all times.

Commenters are free to argue the affirmative or the negative.  They are not free to change the subject by, for example, dragging us into a discusion of the Old Testament or changing the facts and asking “what about this?”  Comments after comment 62 that do not argue either the affirmative or the negative will be deleted.

Comments
There is another reason for gaveling the Old Testament discussion. We are each individually responsible for our actions in light of the transcendent code. What matters is the transcendent code and our adherence to it in our lives today. Now, every Israelite and Amalekite (no doubt they were not all killed) that is reading this and was alive three thousand years ago, please respond immediately. What, silence? Why are we arguing about a directive that has nothing to do with us? The directive (transcendent moral guidance) to Christians is contained within the New Testament, as provided by Jesus and the Apostles. Newsflash, Jesus clearly condemned murder and violence, even when presumably justified, when he rebuked Peter for slicing the slave's ear. Along with his directives to love your enemies, etc. 52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." Matthew 26 Now, Materialists, for you Jesus was a mere mortal, was he not? Good, now please provide one or more names of fellow Materialists that can compete with Jesus in terms of moral guidance and a moral life. We will convene a panel to judge between Jesus and their champion Materialist. This should be more fun than American Idol!!Ekstasis
May 8, 2008
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DaveScot @ 28:
What if the baby was Adolf Hitler and you knew what he would grow up and do. Would you strangle him in his crib?
No, I'd just kidnap and quarantine him from access to Darwin's theories. But now we're talking 'lesser of two evils' arguments. Even if I'd opt to kill the infant Hitler, I'd could not deny my acknowledgement of the evil of that choice. Being free to act in opposition to a transcendent moral standard does not negate the standard. The fact you know murdering an infant Hitler to be objectionable proves the standard exists and transcends even the preferable of two evil outcomes.Charles
May 8, 2008
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mike1962 @ 24:
But to use a subjective feeling as a basis of what is “transcendently moral” is wrongheaded, if one comes at this thing from a Biblical worldview (which I assume Barry is coming from),
The basis is not purely a subjective feeling. It is also an intellectual awareness of knowing the act is evil and what alternative act or outcome is preferred.
where subjective feelings take a clear backseat to Yahweh’s stated will.
You conflate obedience to God's decree of judgement with a human determination of guilt under a transcendant moral standard. Further had God said all babies must be murdered all the time you'd have a point, but God decree'd only those particular children. And the fact that we all find even that objectionable (and comply only out of obedience and trust in God's omniscience, and not out of 'knowing it is per se good or righteous') underscores the transcendant moral standard that murdering babies is not ever good. And since we all find even that OT act of obedience morally objectionable, there is no genuine reason to delve further into that 'gavelled' discussion, as it is not an exemplar of the point you wish to illustrate. If it did support your argument, we'd all agree whenever God commands babies to be murdered is a good thing, but no one (who also reveres God and scripture) so agrees.Charles
May 8, 2008
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The point is, if there are exceptions from Yahweh’s own mouth, then the idea of a “transcendent rule” is false, despite the general rule, and despite our feelings. The point is what does God want you to do. Does he want you to love your enemy or slaughter your neighbor?tribune7
May 8, 2008
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Barry, What if the baby was Adolf Hitler and you knew what he would grow up and do. Would you strangle him in his crib? Good idea about gaveling the Old Testament. If I could gavel it and every memory of it out of existence I'd surely do so. I'm sure the original authors of the Christian religion would have preferred to do that too. Getting a religion based on love, charity, and forgiveness started and having to put the brutal God of the Old Testament at the head of it really took some mental gymnastics. In any objective reading you just know the connection between the old and new testaments is contrived for the sake of expediency. The new testament fixed glaring moral mistakes in the old testament. It was a badly needed fix. The difference in message is like night and day. The difference in godheads is like night and day. Personally I think you have to toss rationality out the window to believe the God of the OT is the same as the NT. DaveScot
May 8, 2008
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if one comes at this thing from a Biblical worldview (which I assume Barry is coming from), where subjective feelings take a clear backseat to Yahweh’s stated will. The stated will of God is "thou shalt not murder" and "love your enemy." What's so hard to understand about that?tribune7
May 8, 2008
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KF:
One may dispute the pros and cons of a situation of lesser of evils and sit in comfortable armchair judgement on those who had to make decisions we had better thank God we do not have to face, but that has NOTHING to do with whether or not murder is self-evidently evil.
Ah, so murder is self-evidently evil until it isn't? And only you (and Barry) are allowed to decide which is which in this discussion? I can't decide whether you are a closet post-modernist or just trying to avoid questions you don't want to answer.specs
May 8, 2008
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Mike Kindly cf 12 above, and show us that you have interacted seriously and soberly with the issues therein ands in the onward linked discussions. Otherwise you are simply resorting to points scoring, agenda serving rhetoric. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 8, 2008
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Specs Kindly look at 15 above. There is a world of difference between [a] an unmitigated evil: calculated deliberate killing of innocent humans as a principal goal of an action [in the case in view multiplied by intent to thereby torture the mothers of the victims], and [b]which of ACKNOWLEDGED evils is lesser in a bad situation. One may dispute the pros and cons of a situation of lesser of evils and sit in comfortable armchair judgement on those who had to make decisions we had better thank God we do not have to face, but that has NOTHING to do with whether or not murder is self-evidently evil. (And the case in point is simply a case of that general rule: thou shalt do no murder.] Let us therefore call attention again to Hooker as cited by Locke to set up the principles of liberty and justice in civil society:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant.
If you cannot accept that murder is self-evidently evil, then you have told us all we need to know. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 8, 2008
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All of the responses so far have been examples of the debate tactic of “if you have nothing to say, change the subject.” The issue posed in this post is very narrow.
So, if I acknowledge that the example you describe is self-evident, can we move on to other examples and see how self-evident they are? After all, a transcendent moral code that is only self-evident in very narrowly drawn scenarios isn't of much value. So, lets push the boundaries and see how much self-evidency there really is. I think this makes sense as, otherwise, you stand to be accused of narrowing the discussion to a hyper-technical point in order to avoid broader questions that you are not prepared to answer.specs
May 8, 2008
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All of the responses so far have been examples of the debate tactic of "if you have nothing to say, change the subject." The issue posed in this post is very narrow. Can the soldier's act of ripping a baby from his mother's arms, throwing him in the air, and catching him on a bayonet ever be good? The answer, of course, remains self evident. I am gaveling discusions of the Old Testament. They are a distraction.BarryA
May 8, 2008
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Leo –This reminds me of another action that we think is morally abhorrent: killing one’s own child seems to be wrong according to the Transcendent Moral Standard, doesn’t it? Actually, that sort of thing is rather common today.tribune7
May 8, 2008
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Leo --This reminds me of another action that we think is morally abhorrent: killing one’s own child seems to be wrong according to the Transcendent Moral Standard, doesn’t it? Actually, that sort of thing was rather common in Abraham's day. You can make the argument that the incident involving Abraham and Isaac was God's way of driving it home that one should not do it.tribune7
May 8, 2008
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GM: Did Tibbets TARGET the babies who may have perished in the bombing as his intended and principal targets? And, that is independent of the issue on whether the bombing was a lesser of evils. A lesser of evils is still an evil [so you have not broken out of the self-evidence claim]; but may be a relative good, i.e. a "better than the most credible alternative" outcome in a bad situation. So, back over to you: to just what was the incident of shooting the head off a baby in arms "a better alternative" to? [Or was it not obviously a case of cruelty without even the relative warrant of being better than the alternative.] In short, we should not fall into the fallacy of [im-]moral equivalence between unmitigated evils and the lesser of two evils in a bad situation. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 8, 2008
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Perhaps we can simplify this. Barry said “Anyone who says that it is not self-evident that the soldier’s act was evil is lying.” Well not so fast. Is it always wrong for soldiers to kill babies? Colonel Paul Tibbets incinerated roughly 2,300 babies on August 6, 1945 (give or take a couple of hundred). Was this self-evidently evil? If not, why not? Both soldiers knew they were killing babies in a pretty horrible way. Both, I’m sure we can agree, were convinced they were acting in the interest and according to the wishes of their sovereigns (the people of the USA in Tibbets’ case and the ruler of the Ottoman Empire in the case of the Turkish soldier). If you believe the acts are equally evil, then I applaud your very liberal pacifist sentiments and will believe that you mean what you say about self-evidence. If not, then please tell me what makes one act self-evidently evil from your point of view? The fact that one soldier did it up close and one from a distance with a button? Or is your ‘self-evident evil’ just an aesthetic judgment on your part based on the pleasure the Turk took in the act – an act which disgusts - while the other act seems reasonable to you? Either way Barry, you’ve got dead babies and precious little self-evidence from where I’m sitting.greyman
May 8, 2008
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[Leo Hales] There are therefore circumstances in which even killing babies becomes morally right. Of course you can just say that the Turks probably thought it was ok - and presto - there's no moral standard. But, from what perspective would you say that the acts descibed by Dostoyevsky are not immoral? I'm not talking about other people, but you. If you cannot find any way to say that the specific acts described by Dostoyevsky morally right, then you have discovered an absolute moral standard. For if anyone comes along and tells you that bayonetting babies for fun is quite moral in their culture, you will tell them to go pound sand, no? It's not likely that they will ever convince you that their morality is just as valid as yours, no?Vladimir Krondan
May 8, 2008
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BarryA: First, we see very directly the point that the previous thread underscores: ++++++++ . . . the price one pays for rejecting self-evident truth is that one descends into a morass of absurdity and confusion, to the point where one cannot accept the obvious. One may indeed choose to be absurd, but that absurdity itself is the strongest evidence that the Tao is as advertised; self-evidently true. +++++++++ On the second point, the distraction again raised in this thread, we are of course seeing the now almost routine claim that "B^iblical morality and/or the God of the B^ible is monstrous." That tactic is not an accident, it is a stratagem of the New Atheists [following the good old fashioned "Village Atheist" of yore] to try to mock and discredit what they cannot directly address on the merits of the main point. Namely, that the core moral teachings of the Judaeo-Christian tradition are an apt expression of what C S Lewis called the Tao, the way of virtue based on key self evident moral truths. A way that has massively and sacrificially contributed to the rise of modern liberty and democracy, and a way that is also commited to the proper difference between liberty and libertinism or license or amorality. A way that, therefore, all too many in our day would subvert and discard, the better to forward their own agendas -- never mind the resulting moral incoherence and chaos. And, never mind the underlying moral principle in evolutionary materialist thought: "might makes 'right' . . ." -- a moral absurdity if ever there was one. So, let us first set the record straight by setting forth the core of Biblical morality in the community, using the words of Paul in an epistle recently dismissed by a certain US presidential candidate as "obscure" when it cut across his agenda [the same bbook and passage, BTW, that grounds the principle that government and citizenship are based on justice and good community order -- thus was the theological foundation of the Dutch [1581], Scottish [C16 - 17], Glorioius English [1688] and American [1764 - 88] Revolutions, cf. vv 1 - 7]:
8 . . . he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,"[a] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
a] --> The core principle of good citizenship is plain: love does no harm to its neighbour, so love fulfills the Tao. b] Hooker, in the justly classic Ecclesiastical Polity, set forth just how this principle is self-evidently true, in a passage cited and used by Locke in Ch 2 sect 5 of his 2nd essay on govt, to ground his own discussion of principles of law, liberty and citizenship:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant.
c --> So, self-evidently, we share a common human nature: we are of one blood, as the same Paul observed in Ac 17, in speaking to the guardians of the West's classical intellectual tradition up on Mars Hill in Athens, in 50 AD. Consequently, just as we wish for others to treat us with dignity, respect, etc, we have a duty to do the same to our equals in nature. Anything not consistent with that is morally incoherent and absurd. d --> Thence also - on the underlying issues tracing to the arguments in and debates over Expelled -- the follies of Nazi racialism and associated agendas. Notice, the concept of the Aryan man was that he was superior to the untermensch so had no obligation to treat them with respect, and certainly was not to let such racial inferiors breed up and overwhelm the master race! We all know where this led, and how it was rationalised. e --> Now also, the passage cited above speaks not just to the duties of the citizen, but the ruler[s]. Accor to vv 1 - 4: "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities . . . [the civil authority] is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." f --> So, there is a sword of justice that is a duty of the ruler, in a world in which there are evildoers who can only be held in check by force. So, rulers hold a further commission as God's agents of judgement against determined wrongdoers who have to be so restrained. g --> Unfortunately, the class of determined wrongdoers can also include the ruler himself. Rulers can turn tyrant. h --> So, based on a multitude of biblical examples and statements that the New Atheists -- tellingly -- never cite, the reformers worked out the principle of interposition to restrain or remove an unjust ruler, thence of godly revolution and establishment of a new government with justice under God. This was foundational to the rise of modern liberty as the linked note on that history and associated key documents will bring out. i --> So we see a due balance: citizenship is to be based on neighbour love, and government is established as God's agency to do us justice and good, holding the forces of evil and resulting chaos in check. That means as well that rulers hold special duties and must have access tot he means of those duties, financial [v 7 -- just power of taxation] and forceful [v 4 -- just power of the sword]. j --> But note, the ruler acts as God's agent, God being the supreme authority and judge, and the one who holds the original power of the sword as creator and governor of the cosmos and as the supremely Just. k --> So, we must immediately recognise that God acting in just government against evil doers holds special duties and just powers. It is in that context that cultures that become a sufficiently destructive contagion and plague of evil in the world are destroyed by him: first by the self-destrucive implicatiosn of such a way of life and society; second by their stubborn disobedience to the Tao and to those who stand up to warn them, thus proving that they must be held in check by force; and, thirdly by destructive force -- the just power of the sword. (I tremble for our civilisation, as Jefferson once trembled for the United States . . .) l --> Usually, that targets ruling elites and their key institutions. [Indeed, if one reads here, one will see, say, that the degree of destruction of Canaanite cultures was different than one might infer from a superficial, out of context reading of isolated texts. More generally, the Moral Monster thesis needs to also be re-assessed in light of considerations here.] m --> But also, in the end, biblically, it is appointed to us sinful men once to die and thereafter to face just eternal judgement. n --> That judgement of course -- per Rm 2 vv 6 - 9 and 12 - 16 etc -- respects the degree of light one may have had [and innocent babies are not in the position of willful men who refuse to live by the truth they know or should know], and respects penitent persistence in the path of the good and the truth that one knows, even where there is much error. But, it is the judgement of our Creator, and Lord -- our ultimate ruler, not a fellow citizen on the same level. o --> From that balanced biblical perspective, a lot of otherwise inexplicably troubling things take on a more balanced proportion. p --> This includes the case with Abraham and Isaac. For, A doubtless was quite familiar with child sacrifice from his Canaanite cultural matrix. So, to him, the demand for such sacrifice would have fit into that context. q --> But through a prophetic drama, Jehovah led him to see that the sacrifice of innocent children was needless, with a ram standing in as acceptable. And, as Hebrews reminds us, the rams [which BTW usually ended up as food for the priestly class, who in that culture carried out much of the processes of governance now carried out by secular governments] looked forward to the day when God himself would willingly offer himself up as the true sacrifice for all our sins, doing away with blood sacrifice in toto. r --> Thus, too, we see the principle of long term moral and spiritual progress in light of what is understandable and acceptable to men at given times and places: accommodation to the situation we face and the hardness of our hearts, but with the principle and pointer to progress in it, opening the way for later upliftment. s --> So, the real issue in our time is to go back to the principles of the Tao, and then look into our own sinful and self-deceptive hearts, asking ourselves hard questions on what is now simply allowed for the hardness of our own hearts today. t --> While we are at it, we will need to ask: is this light or darkness, liberty or libertinism? And, for that the two halves of the core Tao are a sure guide: Love God our loving and good Creator, love our fellow human beings, made in God's image. I trust this helps put things in balance. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 8, 2008
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DaveScot, your strenuous efforts to point out the exceptions just underscores the rule. We can all come up with marginal examples or anecdotes in which the general principle gets applied in a way that seems, at first blush, contradictory. Maybe this would help you understand: Put a qualifier on it. Something like: "Except in the most unusual and extreme circumstances, it is wrong to kill babies." Do you have an issue with that as an objective truth? The observation that one moral truth occasionally gives way to another moral truth in a particular circumstance does not mean that the moral truths don't exist. Indeed, it may be that one of the very challenges (and purposes?) of our existence is to learn to weigh and balance objective truths. The marginal exceptions to the rule you cite just serve to underscore the near-universality of the rule.Eric Anderson
May 8, 2008
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The point of the Dostoevsky passage cited above was the cruelty, not the death. Tigers do kill children but they don't gleefully torture them to death.Jon Jackson
May 8, 2008
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Leo Hales @4 & 6: I was going to type a proper reply to the points raised, but since this is not a religious blog, I'll just link some refutations/excuses for each of the points, which I think if not justifying absolutely, at least give some ground to the other side of the argument. 'Murdering' Amakelite babies: http://www.carm.org/diff/1Sam15_2-3.htm Why God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son: http://www.carm.org/diff/Gen22_1-2.htm (And there is also the point that Abraham was praised not for being willing to sacrifice his child, but because of his limitless obedience to God). What is more relevant is this (Leo Hales @6, and also linking into Davescot @7): "I think that provides a clear answer to the question in the title of this blog post: 'Is Murdering Babies Ever Good?' My answer, based on the Bible, is: yes, if God commands it." I don't think God ever proclaimed wiping out the Amakelites and their babies as a 'good' thing. Similarly, with the instances of choosing to suffocate a baby rather than reveal the entire hiding group, I don't think anyone would proclaim that as a 'good' thing. A question this discussion has got me thinking about: for the mother that kills/euthanize their child, will she ever remember that as a happy and good thing? Would anyone remember such an instance and be glad to have made that choice? I am not saying the answer is "no, I would rather all 50 of us perish instead of just 1". But if there is regret, hesitation, unwillingness or revulsion to make such a decision, doesn't that hint there is some 'absolute moral standard' that runs deeper within us that circumstances and survival rates?Avonwatches
May 8, 2008
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Barry Lots of instances in history where people in hiding had to suffocate a crying baby lest the entire group, including the baby, be found and killed because the baby's crying would give them all away. Lots of scenarios can be fabricated where killing babies is the right thing to do. Say you have a rescue craft. There are 50 babies and you can only rescue half of them. Any that remain behind will slowly die by dehydration, starvation, exposure, or whatever. Some really nasty fate - make up something as horrible as you require. What do you do? Give those you must leave behind a quick merciful death. That's the most humane thing to do. Or say you're stranded on a desert island with 50 babies. Help will arrive but not in time. You have water enough for 25 until help arrives. Do you let all 50 die of thirst? Do you let 25 slowly die of thirst? Or do you give a quick, painless end to 25 so that 25 may live? Again, sometimes we are faced with choices where none are good choices, some are just less bad than others. This was pretty much given as a moral lesson in a famous Star Trek episode where Spock sacrificed himself to save others and famously explained himself "The needs of the many must outweigh the needs of the few." And that's why, as the late Gerry Rzeppa just couldn't fathom, a well trained Marine will throw himself on a grenade to save his fellow Marines and he'll do it without thinking about it because his trained responses are so strong as to become reflexive. You are indoctrinated with the belief that you must be prepared to give up your own life so that others may live. Your own honor and the honor of the Corps is more important than living or dying. Death before dishonor - it isn't just words, it's a way of life. The United States Marine Corps has been extraordinarily successful at producing soldiers who truly believe that and/or rejecting those that don't before they have a chance to bring dishonor to themselves or the Corps. Gerry pissed me off by asking if my children would throw themselves on a grenade since, ostensibly, I would have trained them properly. The smug santa-claus bearded asshat who hasn't raised a single child in his own long wasted life thinks I raised my kids like they were Marine recruits? Hardly. You'd get thrown in jail. USMC boot camp makes the so-called "torture" inflicted on terrorist prisoners at Gitmo look like a walk in the park. That's why so many of us shrug and say "what's the big deal" about what was authorized for interrogation. We went through much worse and it was just a part of our training. DaveScot
May 8, 2008
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Why can't you not know these things? Granted, our modern society dictates that they are wrong (and yet most of us simultaneously 'know' that abortion is ok.) And sure, many people would find it repellent at a biological level. But some people are different. Some people enjoy stepping on insects, kicking dogs, and causing pain. Now you can attribute alot of this to psychological problems. But I think some people are just naturally that like that. And when such people are bought up in societies where it is not taboo to cause such pain to certain people (ethnic minorities etc), then you can usually find plenty of socially respectable people eager to do so. It's sad, but that's human nature. Moral standards are based 1) on what we learn from our society & 2) on our personal reactions to different moral dilemas. I see no need to appeal to an outside force.freemind
May 8, 2008
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Apollos, The mere willingness to engage in an act of child sacrifice is all that is needed for my argument to work. But this is a secondary, supporting consideration for me: my main point rested on the massacre of the Amalekites. I think that provides a clear answer to the question in the title of this blog post: "Is Murdering Babies Ever Good?" My answer, based on the Bible, is: yes, if God commands it. *Leo ducks and waits for flaming to begin*Leo Hales
May 8, 2008
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"Snd yet in all three of the major monotheisms, Abraham is praised for being willing to perform just such an action, at the command of God."
Enter (possibly) the number one most misunderstood event in the Bible: the Akedah, or Abraham's offering of Isaac (not Ishmael). First of all, the offering didn't actually take place -- so scratch using it as an example of child sacrifice. This might be the #1 most sited instance of child sacrifice that didn't actually occur. Every time I've seen this brought up, the fact that no child sacrifice actually took place is never mentioned. Furthermore, Abraham and Isaac were participating in a prophetic play (Gen 22) that acted out the events of the crucifixion, some 2000 years before the events at Calvary. God used this event to spell out for Abraham how faith would result in forgiveness of sin. On that very spot, where Abraham would offer Isaac, another father offered his own son, 2000 years later, on a Roman cross. Let's take a look at some of the parallels. 1) Isaac's offering took place on Mt. Moriah, the very place that Christ was offered. 2) Abraham travelled for 3 days, knowing that Isaac was "dead" to him (Heb 11:17-19) [Christ was in the tomb 3 days] 3) Isaac carried the wood for his own offering up the hill (as Christ carried his own cross). The Akedah is not an example of literal child sacrifice, but Calvary is. One was sacrificed for the many. If you're going to impeach Abraham for child sacrifice, you'd better impeach God Himself instead. Isaac wasn't offered, Jesus Christ was.Apollos
May 8, 2008
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"It is quite literally unthinkable to imagine a moral system in which such an act is good." It is actually quite straightforward to imagine such a system Barry. The Bible reports such a system as history. For in the Old Testament's history, God ordered the Israelites to kill all the Amalekites, men, women, and *drum roll* even babies. There are therefore circumstances in which even killing babies becomes morally right, namely when God commands it. This reminds me of another action that we think is morally abhorrent: killing one's own child seems to be wrong according to the Transcendent Moral Standard, doesn't it? Snd yet in all three of the major monotheisms, Abraham is praised for being willing to perform just such an action, at the command of God. The Transcendent Moral Standard exists, but it is determined by whatever it is that God commands at a given time. It is not always knowable merely through moral intuition.Leo Hales
May 7, 2008
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Despite his Catholic-bashing, I agree with you about Dostoyevsky and his novels. One interesting thing about Karamazov is that Ivan loves abstract people theoretically, but not real people. This is the key to understanding intellectuals and the damage they can do to society. If you haven't read his stories A Gentle Creature and Dream of a Ridiculous Man, check them out. On a slightly different note, there's an interesting and somewhat out-of-the blue message in Knut Hamsun's Growth of the Soil. It has to do with abortion and moral relativism of intellectuals.Vladimir Krondan
May 7, 2008
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Agreed, however I think you underestimate the level of depravity we can all sink and convince ourselves its good. All people of all stripes commit terrible atrocities in war, and feel its justified Forget wars and babies on bayonets though, how about legisalating for babies to be scrapped and sucked out of mother's wombs! I think what truly holds people back from admitting that a transcendant moral standard exists is not that it's self evident (as this example shows) but the next logical step, that we'll be held accountable for breaking it.petro
May 7, 2008
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I agree whole heartedly. Good post Barry.Jason Rennie
May 7, 2008
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