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Is There At Least One Self-Evident Moral Truth?

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Many scholars believe Dostoevsky’s The Brothers Karamazov is the greatest novel ever written.  I don’t know if that is true.  I am not qualified to judge, but I do know the novel moved me as no other ever has.  So I was intrigued when SteveB referred to a passage from the novel in a comment to my earlier post.  In this passage Ivan is exploring man’s capacity for cruelty, and he says to his brother Alyosha (warning, not for the faint of heart):

People talk sometimes of bestial cruelty, but that’s a great injustice and insult to the beasts; a beast can never be so cruel as a man, so artistically cruel.  The tiger only tears and gnaws, that’s all he can do.  He would never think of nailing people by the ears, even if he were able to do it.  These Turks took a pleasure in torturing children, too; cutting the unborn child from the mother’s womb, and tossing babies up in the air and catching them on the points of their bayonets before their mother’s eyes.  Doing it before the mother’s eyes was what gave zest to the amusement. Here is another scene that I thought very interesting. Imagine a trembling mother with her baby in her arms, a circle of invading Turks around her. They’ve planned a diversion; they pet the baby, laugh to make it laugh. They succeed, the baby laughs. At that moment a Turk points a pistol four inches from the baby’s face. The baby laughs with glee, holds out its little hands to the pistol, and he pulls the trigger in the baby’s face and blows out its brains. Artistic, wasn’t it? By the way, Turks are particularly fond of sweet things, they say.

I have read that Dostoevsky did not make this up.  This actually happened and he adopted the story for his novel.

SteveB asked Jack Krebs whether he believed the soldiers were wrong.  Jack said they were, and then he said something very interesting.  He said, “I choose my moral standards.”

I replied:  “Jack, this is an interesting statement.  Are you suggesting that it is possible for you to choose moral standards in which it is good for the soldier to kill the baby?”

Jack responded:  “And no to Barry’s question – I could not choose moral standards that would make it ‘good’ for the soldier to kill the baby.”

I probed further:  “You say ‘I could not choose . . .’  OK.  But what about our soldier?  Is he free to choose moral standards just like you, including moral standards in which baby killing is good?”

To which Jack responded:  “He is free to choose, and he may think what he does is ‘good,’ but I will . . . strenuously disagree”

This is, of course, nonsense.  There are certain things that, as Dr. J. Budziszewski says, “you can’t not know.”  You can’t not know that ripping babies from their mother’s arms, throwing them in the air and catching them on a bayonet is evil.  Everyone reading this post knows this to be true without the slightest doubt or reservation.  Jack is simply and obviously wrong when he says a soldier is free to choose moral standards in which such an act is good.  There is no such freedom. 

Anyone who says that it is not self-evident that the soldier’s act was evil is lying.  It is quite literally unthinkable to imagine a moral system in which such an act is good.

Just as the statement “two plus two equals eight” is wrong in an absolute sense, the soldier’s act was evil in an absolute sense.  The fact that the soldier’s act was evil transcends time, place, circumstances, opinion, and every other variable one might imagine.  From this I conclude the act violated a transcendent moral standard, and from this I further conclude that a transcendent moral standard exists.

ADDENDUM:

Most of the first 62 comments completely missed the point of this post, so I will try to focus the discussion onto the point of the post by posing the question in a debate format:

A soldier amuses himself by ripping a baby from his mother’s arms and tossing it in the air and catching it on a bayonet.

Resolved, it is self-evident that the soldier’s action is wrong in all places and at all times.

Commenters are free to argue the affirmative or the negative.  They are not free to change the subject by, for example, dragging us into a discusion of the Old Testament or changing the facts and asking “what about this?”  Comments after comment 62 that do not argue either the affirmative or the negative will be deleted.

Comments
Junkyard writes: "to me, people sitting around talking for 1000 pages isn’t a novel - its self-indulgence. Its show the writer thinks his thoughts are so profound that people should devote weeks to them." For many, maybe most, writers, you would be right. Dostoevsky is an exception. In his case, his thoughts are worth however much time you care to devote to them. They are hard, baffling, frustrating, even infuriating at times. But they are profound and cannot be dismissed.BarryA
May 8, 2008
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edit: The Old Man and the Sea is a novella (just over 100 pages in length) by Ernest Hemingway written in Cuba in 1951 and published in 1952JunkyardTornado
May 8, 2008
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Sorry to bounce around, but check this out on Gandhi: "Early that very morning, foreseeing the manner of his death, Gandhi had said to Manu, "If someone fires bullets at me and I die without a groan and with God's name on my lips, then you should tell the world that here was a real Mahatma [Great Soul]..." .....He had journeyed "from untruth to truth, from darkness to light, from death to immortality. Gandhi, the soldier of Truth, lay on the soft, moist earth, his body sacrificed. But Gandhi had never fought with the body but with the spirit, and that remained untouched." Yep, far from the fog of Materialist thinking, was the great man!!!Ekstasis
May 8, 2008
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DaveScott, Ghandi was not a materialist.BarryA
May 8, 2008
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The new and old testaments are perfectly harmonized in their reverence for the law, which, we are told, is summed up in the command to love one another, and which includes the injunction "thou shalt not kill." It appears to have been necessary for this injunction to be revealed, however, which suggests that it was not self-evident, as the post indicates. Jeremiah's famous description of the human heart may be relevant here; it is certainly reflected in Dostoyevsky. The passage quoted reflects his belief that the heart is desperately wicked, and that grace is therefore the only possible means of obtaining happiness or breaking out of the desperation caused by the collapse of philosophy and the pursuit of the good at the end of the dark century. Speaking for ourselves, we tend to agree with him.allanius
May 8, 2008
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mike1962 @ 47:
or those who believe in the transcendent morality think the deniers are liars.
I gave a generic example of how this thread could exist as a result of lying, I did not accuse you personally of lying. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't put it on. I did accuse you of being mistaken. I accused you of not understanding the meaning of revering God and scripture. I did not accuse you of lying about God and scripture. By analogy, if you posit that 2+2=5, does the evidence support an accusation of lying, being mistaken, or fat-fingered? IMO, the facts in evidence demontrated only our disagreement. In further rebutal I specifically said your responses indicated that you were mistaken, again a conclusion supported by the facts in evidence in your posts. One can be honestly mistaken without lying.Charles
May 8, 2008
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Vladimir Krondan at 29. Excellent.BarryA
May 8, 2008
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Show me where I have said or entailed that murder, per the principles expounded by Hooker etc, is not self evidently evil.
When you excused the dropping of the atom bomb when you suggested that the babies killed were not the target, but rather just collateral damage.
Have you paused to even observe the careful distinction of circumstances I made above? Do you appreciate that while killing another human being is an evil, not all such killing is murder?
Yers, I have. And what I see is you, in true post-modern fashion, equivocating on what is murder and what isn't. As near as I can tell the definition of what constitutes murder is what you say it is. How very not Scottish.specs
May 8, 2008
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Well DaveScot, it appears you're going off to Dawkins land here. I guess we all saw it coming over these last few days. "If I could gavel it and every memory of it out of existence I’d surely do so." Your hatred of the bible (which you obviously do not understand in the least) is getting more and more obvious. "I’m sure the original authors of the Christian religion would have preferred to do that too. " Certainly you've never read either the words of Christ or the apostles! Virtually everything they said is based on the OT. Sheesh Dave! "...In any objective reading you just know the connection between the old and new testaments is contrived for the sake of expediency. The new testament fixed glaring moral mistakes in the old testament." See above. "The difference in message is like night and day." Same again. I suggest you actually read the book with some decent study guides. Everything Christ taught was based on OT law and principle. You truly and greatly confuse Jewish civil law with the natural moral law in the book. "The difference in godheads is like night and day." Amazingly wrong. In both OT and NT Christ is God and claims to be the same God of Abraham. He came specifically to show what the God is like. That is written all over the NT and OT prophecies as well! "Personally I think you have to toss rationality out the window ..." I'm sorry to say it but I think you just did. Get an education in biblical doctrine, history and a course on exegesis and the difference between civil law, ceremonial law and moral law in the OT. Also suggest you learn something about the OT cultures and their practices which might help you understand the "why" of so many things in the OT. You're talking more and more like Dick Dawkins, maybe you ought to consult him to get to the real truth? Jeepers Dave I'm very disappointed.Borne
May 8, 2008
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Dostoevsky’s The Brothers Karamazov is, according to many scholars, the greatest novel ever written. I don’t know if that is true. I am not qualified to judge, but I do know the novel moved me as no other ever has. I personally got only 130 pages into it before deciding "This is going nowhere." I don't know, to me, people sitting around talking for 1000 pages isn't a novel - its self-indulgence. Its show the writer thinks his thoughts are so profound that people should devote weeks to them. I personally always admired the ethos of Hemingway, trying to say something in as few words as possible and how he could write an epic in 85 pages about and old guy in a boat. (Although the fact I have to go back 70 years to find a novelist worth mentioning shows I'm not much of a fiction reader.) However, that quote you gave is only in Chapter 4, so I must have read it and forgot about it. You did not include the continuing remarks of Ivan regarding the Turks which are instructive:
You see, I am fond of collecting certain facts, and, would you believe, I even copy anecdotes of a certain sort from newspapers and books, and I've already got a fine collection. The Turks, of course, have gone into it, but they are foreigners. I have specimens from home that are even better than the Turks. You know we prefer beating- rods and scourges- that's our national institution. Nailing ears is unthinkable for us, for we are, after all, Europeans. But the rod and the scourge we have always with us and they cannot be taken from us. Abroad now they scarcely do any beating. Manners are more humane, or laws have been passed, so that they don't dare to flog men now. But they make up for it in another way just as national as ours.
JunkyardTornado
May 8, 2008
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DaveScot, Gandhi was certainly not a Materialist. In fact I can think of practically no one who was more spiritually focused and motivated. He was the very polar opposite of a Materialist, for that matter. For starters, he was commonly known as Mahatma Gandhi -- meaning "Great Soul". He was a devout Hindu, he fasted and prayed for purification,and he devoted himself to Hindu, Buddhist, and Christian literature. His final words after being shot were reputed to be "Oh God". Here is but one of his quotes: "The fleeting glimpses that I have been able to have of Truth can hardly convey an idea of the indescribable luster of Truth, a million times more intense than that of the Sun, we daily see with our eyes. In fact, what I have caught is only the faintest glimmer of that mighty effulgence. I feel the warmth and sun-shine of His presence." Mahatma Gahdhi Having said this, let us remember that Gandhi was primarily a political figure, while Jesus was focused on personal transformation. Over a billion people on the planet are experiencing, or so claim, transformation by the power of Jesus. The same cannot be claimed by anyone else (the Prophet Mohammed claimed to only be a messenger, I believe). Jesus went to a horrible death intentionally, as a sacrifice for humanity. Gandhi gave his life, but did not go looking for it. Also, regarding Jesus clearing the temple, I do not see any statements that he actually whipped humans. "14In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!" John 2 The cross stands alone, with no peers.Ekstasis
May 8, 2008
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Remember, murder and killing are two different things. I see people here blurring the distinctions.JPCollado
May 8, 2008
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PPS: 24 is now 22, and M's at 25 has vanished.kairosfocus
May 8, 2008
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Spec, re 24: Show me where I have said or entailed that murder, per the principles expounded by Hooker etc, is not self evidently evil. Have you paused to even observe the careful distinction of circumstances I made above? Do you appreciate that while killing another human being is an evil, not all such killing is murder? [What part of "the lesser of evils is still an evil" do you fail to understand? What part of murder as "the shedding of innocent blood, with malice aforethought" do you not understand?] Much less, do you actually address the issue on the merits? Finally: what is that telling us? [Hint, sadly, it is not to your credit.] GEM of TKI PS: Mike, re 25: please re-read the point Hooker made, as I have cited. it is not a matter of subjective distaste but that once we see that we are objectively equals in nature, and are intrinsically valuable, we have a mutual duty of benevolence. Or in Paul's language, neighbour-love does no harm. (Contrast the shocking and destructive implications of evolutionary materialism for ethics, here. Of course, as the just linked begins by showing, such evo mat thinking is itself inherently self-referentially absurd.)kairosfocus
May 8, 2008
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DaveScott: "What if the baby was Adolf Hitler and you knew what he would grow up and do. Would you strangle him in his crib?" Interesting question,which was actually explored in the movie "The Boys from Brazil." The answer is Latin is: "Fiat justitia, ruat coelum." Though the heavens fall, let justice prevail. Murdering a baby is never good, no matter what "greater good" one would try to accomplish. I've answered your question. Answer mine. Is the evil of the Turk's act self-evident?BarryA
May 8, 2008
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Mike1962, I have deleted all of your commetns. If you insist in trying to continue the Old Testament distraction, do not be surprised if your posting privilege is revoked.BarryA
May 8, 2008
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May I make an ecumenical suggestion? Notwithstanding the difficulties that have been raised with regard to killing babies in extreme circumstances, there is a universal formulation which I think we can all agree to: The intentional killing of a baby is wrong, unless one KNOWS that by doing so, one is saving the baby from a fate worse than death itself. The key word above is "knows." On a very narrow reading, "knows" might be construed to mean "knows with absolute certitude"; on a broader reading, it might mean "is certain beyond reasonable doubt." I shall return to these readings below. However, my point here is that on EITHER reading, what the soldiers did in Dostoevsky's novel was an unmitigated evil. Far from attempting to save the babies from a fate worse than death, the soldiers strove to make the babies' deaths as hideous and hellish as possible, and they delighted in the suffering they caused. As to how we know that the universal formulation I proposed above is true, I would AGREE with those who say that this knowledge is properly basic (to use an expression that Alvin Plantinga likes to invoke), but DISAGREE with anyone who suggested that this knowledge is a purely subjective feeling. I would AGREE with those who say it can be known RATIONALLY, either as an instance of the Golden Rule (which again may be regarded as a properly basic moral truth, psychopaths notwithstanding), or as part of the natural moral law, starting from a consideration of ends (such as the good of life), whose goodness is self-evident, and which it makes no sense to question. I would also AGREE with those who regarded such a truth as a basic moral intuition. I would DISAGREE with those who said that because its truth is intuitively obvious, it is therefore not rationally defensible. I would AGREE with those who described such the universal formulation proposed above as OBJECTIVELY TRUE. I would also agree that the existence of objective moral truths ultimately makes no sense unless we posit a TRANSCENDENT source of moral value, who is BY NATURE good (and hence unable to do or command anything wrong). Unless such a being exists, there would be no reason for us to trust our faculty of moral reasoning. For if our moral faculty arose through some purely natural process, there would be no particular reason to assume that it functions reliably, or that it is capable of addressing moral questions on any and every subject. (One might still trust one's moral reasoning, simply because one had nothing better to go on, but one would have no warrant for doing so.) However, I would DISAGREE with those who maintain that we have to explicitly posit God's existence BEFORE we can debate any moral issue. That would make moral debate impossible, outside the circle of people who happened to believe in the same God. And yet, theists and atheists can often have fruitful moral discussions. By the way, for anyone who is hung up on the Euthyphro question, I would recommend the following article: "C.S. Lewis and the Euthyphro Dilemma" by Steve Lovell, at http://www.theism.net/article/29 . Let me return to the two readings of the universal formulation I proposed above, namely that the intentional killing of a baby is wrong, unless one KNOWS that by doing so, one is saving the baby from a fate worse than death itself. On the broad reading, where "knows" means "is certain beyond reasonable doubt," one could justify the hard cases raised by Dave Scot, such as killing babies to prevent them from suffering a slow, painful death. The deaths of babies as a result of aerial bombing would be another matter: if the destruction of human life were part of the bomber's intention (e.g. if the bomber intended to wreak destruction in order to demoralize the enemy, and thereby force the enemy to capitulate) then it would be EVIL on the formulation proposed; if, however, the deaths were an unintended side-effect, then the act MIGHT NOT be evil. (I am no military historian, but I would say that in the case of the Hiroshima bombing, the destruction of human life through aerial bombing seems to have been intentional; in most of the wars fought by America since then, I would say that it was not, with the possible exception of Vietnam.) Now let's consider the narrow reading, where "knows" means "is certain beyond reasonable doubt." In that case, it would follow that since God alone can know future events with absolute certitude, God alone could command the killing of innocent babies. ADDITIONALLY, the person obeying God's command would have to know with a certitude that left no room for doubt that it was indeed God (and not some malevolent being) commanding such an act. To warrant such trust, the Being issuing such a command would have to demonstrate both its transcendence and its goodness through a series of PUBLIC signs (i.e. miracles), at least. "Inner voices," no matter how insistent, could never warrant such unconditional trust. I have written more on the subject of the slaughter of the Canaanites and Amalekites. Those who wish to do so may like to look at my Web page at http://www.angelfire.com/linux/vjtorley/whybelieve6.html and scroll down to section 6.7 (Biblical atrocities). I should also like to add that we do not know the limits of God's providence. If we grant the possibility of miracles - as anyone who believes in a Creator God is logically compelled to do - then it is quite possible that God in His mercy miraculously intervened in such a way as to ensure that the innocent victims of these massacres experienced neither pain nor dread while they were being put to the sword by the Israelites. They may have been miraculously stunned by God, before being put to the sword by the Israelites. Indeed, I would argue that the goodness of God requires that He did indeed do such a thing: if He is God, then it is His duty to kill quickly and painlessly, if and when He ever has to kill an innocent human being.vjtorley
May 8, 2008
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mike1962 @ 47:
C.S. Lewis used in the sense I did:
No, he didn't.
Looks like we’ve come to the end of rational discourse.
That is self-evident.Charles
May 8, 2008
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What if the baby was Adolf Hitler and you knew what he would grow up and do. If you killed a baby because of what you thought he might do you would be criminally insane.tribune7
May 8, 2008
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mike1962 @ 42:
By tautology, I mean something clearly obvious to all without further discussion.
Then you would be mistaken in your use of the term.
Are you making accusations?
Again you seem mistaken, this time in your understanding of what it means to revere God and scripture. Like your use of the word "tautology" you may think your meaning is correct when in fact it isn't.Charles
May 8, 2008
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Jesus physically whipped the money changers out of the Temple, whereas Ghandi advocated passive resistence.
So Ghandi goals were gained without resorting to physical abuse of ones enemies, something Jesus could not do?leo
May 8, 2008
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Bayonetting babies for amusement is morally right.’ Let’s call that proposition A. If any of us met someone who holds A, we would say he is simply wrong or crazy. We would not conclude that morality is relative, we’d conclude that he is just plain wrong.
But the point is that the person who held A does not believe he is wrong or crazy, he believe he is right. And if he believe he is right, he obviously has a different moral standard than you or I, self-evidently.leo
May 8, 2008
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Dave at 28 wrote,
"What if the baby was Adolf Hitler and you knew what he would grow up and do. Would you strangle him in his crib?"
That would not be murder, that would be a justified act of preemption. You are however not allowing in your hypothetical, for the baby Hitler to be brought up right and changed or saved. Since I think people can be chanced and chose right vs. wrong I think your hypothetical is unrealistic. But if we knew that millions of deaths were going to come because of one kid we would obviously be in the right to prevent that child from existing. Just like when one has sex with their spouse it isn't considered prostitution even if one is benefiting financially from the relationship. So it is with killing and murdering. This is about self defense in the most extreme of cases. Justice and reasoning separates the naturally indistinguishable into legitimate categories. Even though a lot of times reasoning can be poor or flat out wrong, it is still all that we‘ve got. What would be more interesting would be to ask the question “what if you somehow knew that the baby had a 50% chance of leading to the holocaust? Would you kill it then? How out a 40% or a 10% or 3% chance?” This would lead to a moral dilemma. Luckily we don’t have to deal with such probabilities very often in the real world. When we do the decisions are always difficult and almost always costly. In my view Iraq is a moral dilemma of sorts. It's costs are great but I also think leaving the middle east to the dictatorial and religious fanaticism that permeats thoughout it is equally or more of a gamble of life and death. The costs are great but success would be priceless.Frost122585
May 8, 2008
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DaveScot @ 37: Ghandi advocated civil disobedience whereas Jesus advocated civil obedience both in word (render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's) and deed (He allowed the religious and civil authorities to murder Him under their jurisprudence). Jesus physically whipped the money changers out of the Temple, whereas Ghandi advocated passive resistence. There is no comparison.Charles
May 8, 2008
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mike1962 @ 33:
The point I wish to make, which is simply true given the statements of the text itself, is that Yahweh makes general rules, and Yahweh makes specific exceptions. You can’t get any more foundational that that.
Actually, you can if you didn't conveniently ignore (twice now) your conflating God's specific judgement with a transcendent and general 'murder is evil' moral code.
If the transcendental morality you speak of is written clearly into everyone, then we’d all agree, it would be a tautology to all, and this thread wouldn’t exist.
You again conflate. A tautology can be both true, and yet useless in proving anything. Even so, self-evident does not equate to a tautology. The sky is blue is self-evident. The sky is blue because blue is the color of the sky is a tautology. This thread can also exist for a variety of other reasons. One can for example acknowledge that murdering babies is always evil, and yet lie about it. We have free will: we can murder, knowing it is evil and we can lie about knowing it was evil, to further our own self-defense when caught, knowing that lying is also evil.
I revere Yahweh and scripture, yet I disagree with you. Now what?
You've demonstrated only that you disagree.Charles
May 8, 2008
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ekstasis please provide one or more names of fellow Materialists that can compete with Jesus in terms of moral guidance and a moral life Ghandi.DaveScot
May 8, 2008
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I realize you were trying to pick a scenario that you think would be an example of obvious evil according to any standard. But it was not in fact a very good example at all, as the spectre of war always completely clouds the moral picture. Its instructive that the Brother Karamazov didn't pick an example of Russian atrocities as I am sure there were many inflicted on the Turks. But its always the other guy that started it, and the atrocities you commit are always justified retaliation. Every student of World War II should be aware of what Soviet soldiers did to German civilians at the end of World War II, rape, intanticide by the hundreds of thousands. Of course, they had in their memories the equally horrific siege of Leningrad and Stalingrad and the untold atrocities inflicted on their own country by the Germans. As well, they had the always used excuse of following orders from their commanders. It is always the commander that issue orders from a safe distance, and carefully calculate a rationale for such atrocities while sittng comfortably in their studies with their cigars and brandy and in front of a roaring fire. Then they reach down and pat their faithful dog on the head and say to themselves, "Well it has to be done." Then after the war they are honored as statesmen and heros. I just got finished reading about the bombing of Dresden at the very end of World War II. Dresden had no military value at all, and in fact the Germans had withdrew all defenses for it. The bombing was designed solely to kill civilians, and hundreds of thousands were burned alive at the order of Winston Churchill. The rationale had something to do with Churchill making a statement to Stalin that would expedite negotiations at the upcoming Yalta conference (Don't really understand what was going on there - the decisions of Great Men are inscrutable.) The observations above are somewhat hackneyed - but it just illustrates that you should have certainly been aware of them yourself. Its also instructive that you did not pick an example of American wartime atrocities. (Psa 137:8-9) O daughter of Babylon, you devastated one, How blessed will be the one who repays you with the recompense with which you have repaid us. How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock. (Luke 23:33-34) When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing...JunkyardTornado
May 8, 2008
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At the risk of being accused of changing the subject; Isn't there something morally incoherent about a members of a political party that hyperventilate over the "murder" of a few murderous thugs on death row and yet insist on the right to abort?merlin
May 8, 2008
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I agree with Aquinas who said the mind of man is "inclined but not compelled." This begs the question of duty and challenge to do what is right - but it also stipulates that we have the power and the natural inclination to distinguish between the two. We know when we are doing evil for the most part just like we know when we are in pain. The programming is, for the healthy individual, all ready there, but "the choice" to do good still remains. Whatever forces bring about cruel behavior I think for the most part are working against man's natural inclinations. As in the case of killing babies, people I think don't naturally want to act that way. Since I think that there are forces that incline man to do evil, I am therefore a believer in freedom as the key to liberating the human spirit. Free market societies and democracies, I beleive promote freedom. Like Regan I think that the soul of man is mostly good if you allow it to act on it's own merits and accord. Man becomes perverted for the most part when he is being influenced and controlled by other agents. As Reagan said "people don't start wars, governments do." Obviously my view is a general one that does have exceptions but the bottom line is that on the norm the heart of man is pure. I figure no one said it better than Shakespeare
"What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, howinfinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how likem a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust? ."
Though taking nothing away from the great Russian novelist- I have read Notes From Underground but The Brothers Karamazov is still stilling on the shelf waiting to be read. There is also a scientific reason and place for religion in any culture. Kurt godel said "that for the most part eligions are bad but, religion is good." As Regan also put it,
“Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged.”
When people are behaving like vicious animals there usually is a reason for it that exists either in the culture or the circumstances that the people have found themselves in. Let us not forget about the relatively good people we are surrounded by day to day in this modern life, especially in comparison to darker times. People have a free will I think because I have experienced the dialectics of life so many times for my self. To steal or not to steal, to fight or not to fight, to work or not to work ,to eat or not to eat, to help or not to help, to be or not to be etc.. This high power to choose is what actually separates us from the animals. Choice by itself is just a mechanism and is neither good nor bad. It is the choices that we make that warrant the final judgment. Man’s capacity to do evil is no doubt greater than the animals because he has a greater capacity than the animals. His power to do good is in the same position. The question that is being asked is "is man mostly good or mostly evil or is he just “man” somewhere in the middle?" I have come to the conclusion that man has purpose - things to live and to die for- and for the most part he takes up his predestined duties with a degree of altruistic vigor; duties that are for the most part noble. Man (at the level of the individual) has the power to choose and is naturally inclined (if ever so slightly) to chose what is right. Murdering babies is NEVER good and I can't imagine ever right. There is however a supreme difference between "killing" and "murdering." There are however, unfortunately, sometimes what we call “necessary evils” - but keep in mind that they still remain “evils” nonetheless. Our job as beings with a soul is to prevent evil from becoming necessary in the first place. Let us hope we have the grace and guidance in our capacity to distinguish between right and wrong and the courage to choose wisely.Frost122585
May 8, 2008
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'Bayonetting babies for amusement is morally right.' Let's call that proposition A. If any of us met someone who holds A, we would say he is simply wrong or crazy. We would not conclude that morality is relative, we'd conclude that he is just plain wrong. All of us would conclude so, and furthermore we would conclude, about anyone who holds proposition B, "we cannot conclude that an A-holder is wrong or crazy" that he is also wrong or crazy. There is no circumstance where any of us would entertain an A-holder as being anything but wrong or crazy.Vladimir Krondan
May 8, 2008
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