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Is there evidence for natural selection?

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From a new book Otangelo Grasso is working on – comments welcome:

I am looking for comments, if my conclusion is sound, that evolution cannot be a theory. It cannot be tested, on how natural selection influences differential reproduction and the fitness landscape. 
Is there evidence for natural selection?

According to Darwin’s Theory, the main actors that drive evolution, is natural Selection, Genetic Drift, and Gene Flow. Natural selection depends on variation through random mutations. Inheritance,  differential survival, and reproduction ( reproductive success which permits new traits to spread in the population).   The genetic modification is supposed to be due to: Survival of the fittest, in other words, 1.  higher survival rates upon specific gene-induced phenotype adaptations to the environment, and 2. higher reproduction rates upon specific evolutionary genetic modifications. Keep in mind that these are two different, distinct factors. It’s a fact that harmful variants, where a mutation influences negatively health, fitness, and reproduction ability of organisms diminish. These are sorted out, or die through disease. In that regard, natural selection is a fact. That says nothing however about an organism gaining more fitness  ( reproductive success )  through the evolution of new advantageous traits.

Definitions of fitness:
J. Dekker (2007): 1. The average number of offspring produced by individuals with a certain genotype, relative to the numbers produced by individuals with other genotypes. 2: The relative competitive ability of a given genotype conferred by adaptive morphological, physiological, or behavioral characters, expressed and usually quantified as the average number of surviving progeny of one genotype compared with the average number of surviving progeny of competing genotypes; a measure of the contribution of a given genotype to the subsequent generation relative to that of other genotypes
A condition necessary for evolution to occur is variation in fitness of organisms according to the state they have for a heritable character. Individuals in the population with some characters must be more likely to reproduce, more fit. Organisms in a population vary in reproductive success. We will discuss fitness in Life History when we discuss competition, interference and the effects of neighbor plants.

Three Components of Fitness.  These different components are in conflict with each other, and any estimate of fitness must consider all of them:
1.  Reproduction
2.  Struggle for existence with competitors
3.  Avoidance of predators  2

S.El-Showk (2012): The common usage of the term “fitness” is connected with the idea of being in shape and associated physical attributes like strength, endurance or speed; this is quite different from its use in biology.  To an evolutionary biologist, fitness simply means reproductive success and reflects how well an organism is adapted to its environment.The main point is that fitness is simply a measure of reproductive success and so won’t always depend on traits such as strength and speed; reproductive success can also be achieved by mimicry, colorful displays, sneak fertilization and a host of other strategies that don’t correspond to the common notion of “physical fitness”.

What then are we to make of the phrase “survival of the fittest”? Fitness is just book-keeping; survival and differential reproduction result from natural selection, which actually is a driving mechanism in evolution. Organisms which are better suited to their environment will reproduce more and so increase the proportion of the population with their traits. Fitness is simply a measurement of survival (which is defined as reproductive success); it’s not the mechanism driving survival.  Organisms (or genes or replicators) don’t survive because they are fit; rather, they are considered fit because they survived. 3

The environment is not stable, but changes. Science would need to have the knowledge of what traits of each species are favored in a specific environment. Adaptation rates and mutational diversity and other spatiotemporal parameters, including population density, mutation rate, and the relative expansion speed and spatial dimensions. When the attempt is made to define with more precision what is meant by the degree of adaptation and fitness, we come across very thorny and seemingly intractable problems. 

As Evolution. Berkley explains: Of course, fitness is a relative thing. A genotype’s fitness depends on the environment in which the organism lives. The fittest genotype during an ice age, for example, is probably not the fittest genotype once the ice age is over. Fitness is a handy concept because it lumps everything that matters to natural selection (survival, mate-finding, reproduction) into one idea. The fittest individual is not necessarily the strongest, fastest, or biggest. A genotype’s fitness includes its ability to survive, find a mate, produce offspring — and ultimately leave its genes in the next generation. 1

Claim: Adam Eyre-Walker (2007): All organisms undergo mutation, the effects of which can be broadly divided into three categories. First, there are mutations that are harmful to the fitness of their host; these mutations generally either reduce survival or fertility. Second, there are ‘neutral’ mutations, which have little or no effect on fitness. Finally, there are advantageous mutations, which increase fitness by allowing organisms to adapt to their environment. Although we can divide mutations into these three categories, there is, in reality, a continuum of selective effects, stretching from those that are strongly deleterious, through weakly deleterious mutations, to neutral mutations and then on to mutations that are mildly or highly adaptive. The relative frequencies of these types of mutation are called the distribution of fitness effects (DFE)5

R. G. Brajesh et.al., (2019): Mutations occur spontaneously during the course of reproduction of an organism. Mutations that impart a beneficial characteristic to the organism are selected and consequently, the frequency of the mutant allele increases in the population. Mutations can be single base changes called point mutations like substitutions, insertions, deletions, as well as gross changes like chromosome recombination, duplication, and translocation 7

Reply:  How can random mutations give rise to higher fitness and higher reproduction of the individuals with the new allele variation favored by natural selection, and so spread in the population? This seems in fact to be a core issue that raises questions. The environmental conditions of a population, the weather, food resources, temperatures, etc. are random How do random events, like weather conditions, together with random mutations in the genome, provoke a fitness increase in an organism and a survival advantage over the other individuals without the mutation? 

T.Bataillon (2014): The rates and properties of new mutations affecting fitness have implications for a number of outstanding questions in evolutionary biology. Obtaining estimates of mutation rates and effects has historically been challenging, and little theory has been available for predicting the distribution of fitness effects (DFE); Future work should be aimed at identifying factors driving the observed variation in the distribution of fitness effects. What can we say about the distribution of fitness effects of new mutations? For the distribution of fitness effects DFE of beneficial mutations, experimentally inferred distributions seem to support theory for the most part. Distribution of fitness effects DFE has largely been unexplored and there is a need to extend both theory and experiment in this area. 4

The above confession demonstrates that a key question, namely how mutations in fact affect fitness has not been answered. I go further and say: Darwin’s Theory can in reality not be tested, nor quantified. The unknown factors in each case are too many, and the variations in the environment, and population and species behavior vary too. It cannot be defined what influence the given environment exercises in regard to specific animals and traits in that environment, nor how the environmental influence would change the fitness and reproduction success of each distinct animal species. Nor how reproduction success given new traits would change upon environmental changes.  What determines whether a gene variant spreads or not would depend theoretically on an incredibly complex web of factors – the species’ ecology, its physical and social environment, and sexual behavior. A further factor adding complexity is the fact that high social rank is associated with high levels of both copulatory behavior and the production of offspring which is widespread in the study of animal social behavior. 

As alpha males have on average higher reproductive success than other males, since they outcompete weaker individuals, and get preference to copulate if other (weaker)  males gain beneficial mutations (or the alphas’ negative mutations) as the alphas can outperform and win the battle for reproduction,  thus selection has an additional hurdle to overcome and spread the new variant in the population. This does not say anything about the fact that it would have to be determined what gene loci are responsible for sexual selection and behavior, and only mutations that influence sexual behavior would have an influence on fitness and the struggle to contribute more offspring to the next generation.   It is in praxis impossible to isolate these factors and see which is of selective importance,  quantify them, plug them in (usually in this context) to a mixed multivariate computational model, see what’s statistically significant, and get meaningful, real-life results. The varying factors are too many and nonpredictive. Darwin’s idea, therefore, depends on variable, unquantifiable multitude of factors that cannot be known, and cannot be tested, which turns the theory at best into a non-testable hypothesis, which then remains just that: a hypothesis. Since Darwin’s idea cannot be tested, it’s by definition, unscientific. 

If fitness is a relative thing, it cannot be detected and proven that natural selection is the mechanism that generates variations that produce more offspring, and therefore the new trait spreads in the population. Therefore, mutations and natural selection cannot be demonstrated to have the claimed effects. What is the relation between mutations in the genome, and the number of offspring? What mutations are responsible for the number of offspring produced? If the theory of evolution is true, there must be a detectable mechanism, that determines or induces, or regulates the number of offspring based due to specific genetic mutations. Only a specific section in the genome is responsible for this regulation.

There are specific regions in the genome responsible for each  mechanism of reproduction, being it sexual, or asexual reproduction, that is:  

1. Regulation and programming of sexual attraction ( hormones, pheromones, instinct, etc.)
2. Frequency of sexual intercourse and reproduction
3. The regulation of the number of offspring produced

What influence do environmental pressures have on these 3 points? What pressures induced organisms to evolve sexual, and asexual reproduction?  Are the tree mechanisms mentioned not amazingly various and differentiated, and each species have individual, species-specific mechanisms? Some have an enormous number of offspring that helps the survival of the species, while others have a very low reproduction rate ( whales  ? ) How could environmental pressures have induced this amazing variation, and why?  That means also on a molecular level, enormous differences from one species to the other exist.  how could accidental mutations have been the basis for all this variation? Would there not have to be SPECIFIC environmental pressures resulting in the selection of  SPECIFIC traits based on mutations of the organism to be selected that provide survival advantage and fitness? ( genome or epigenome, whatever )  AND higher reproduction rates of the organism at the same time?

What is the chance, that random mutations provoke positive phenotypic differences, that help the survival of the individual? What kind of environmental factors influence the survival of a species? What kind of mutations must be selected to guarantee a higher survival rate?

The lack of predictive power of natural selection is due to different environmental conditions that turn it impossible to quantify the effects and measure their outcome.

Ivana Cvijović (2015):Temporal fluctuations in environmental conditions can have dramatic effects on the fate of each new mutation, reducing the efficiency of natural selection and increasing the fixation probability of all mutations, including those that are strongly deleterious on average. This makes it difficult for a population to maintain specialist adaptations, even if their benefits outweigh their costs. Temporally varying selection pressures are neglected throughout much of population genetics, despite the fact that truly constant environments are rare. The fate of each mutation depends critically on its fitness in each environment, the dynamics of environmental changes, and the population size. We still lack both a quantitative and conceptual understanding of more significant fluctuations, where selection in each environment can lead to measurable changes in allele frequency. 6

More problems: R. G. Brajesh (2019): The genotypic mutational space of an organism is so vast, even for the tiniest of organisms like viruses or even one gene, that it becomes experimentally intractable. Hence, studies have limited to studying only small parts of the genome. For example, experiments have attempted to map the functional effect of mutations at important active site residues in proteins, like Lunzer et al. engineered the IDMH enzyme to use NADP as cofactor instead of NAD, and obtain the fitness landscape in terms of the mutational steps. Other experiments have attempted to ascertain how virulence is affected by mutations at certain important loci in viruses. However, due to the scale of the genotypic mutational space, it has been extremely difficult to experimentally obtain fitness landscapes of larger multicomponent systems, and study the statistical properties of these landscapes like the Distribution of Fitness Effects (DFE). Attempts have also been made to back-calculate the underlying DFE by experimentally observing how frequently new beneficial mutations emerge and of what strength, but the final results were inconclusive. As a result, how the beneficial, neutral, and deleterious mutations and their effects are distributed, when the organism genotype is at different locations on the fitness landscape, has remained largely intractable.7

And more problems: Adam Eyre-Walker (2007): The distribution of fitness effects DFE of deleterious mutations, in particular the proportion of weakly deleterious mutations, determine a population’s expected drift load—the reduction in fitness due to multiple small-effect deleterious mutations that individually are close enough to neutral to occasionally escape selection, but can collectively have important impacts on fitness. The DFE of new mutations influences many evolutionary patterns, such as the expected degree of parallel evolution, the evolutionary potential and capacity of populations to respond to novel environments, the evolutionary advantage of sex, and the maintenance of variation on quantitative traits, to name a few. Thus, an understanding of the DFE of mutations is a pivotal part of our understanding of the process of evolution.  Furthermore, the available data suggest that some aspects of the DFE of advantageous mutations are likely to differ between species5

Conclusion: The effects of natural selection on differential reproduction cannot be tested, since too many unknown variables have to be included, and that cannot lead to meaningful, quantifiable results that permit a clear picture. 

1. Evolution.Berkley: Evolutionary fitness
2. J.Dekker: www.agron.iastate.edu/~weeds/AG517/Content/WeedEvol/NaturalSelection/natselect.html” target=”_blank” rel=”nofollow”>Natural Selection and its Four Conditions 2007
3. S.El-Showk: Natural selection: On fitness (2012)
4. Thomas Bataillon: Effects of new mutations on fitness: insights from models and data 2014 Jul
5. Adam Eyre-Walker: The distribution of fitness effects of new mutations August 2007
6. Ivana Cvijović: Fate of a mutation in a fluctuating environment August 24, 2015
7. R. G. Brajesh: Distribution of fitness effects of mutations obtained from a simple genetic regulatory network model 08 July 2019

Comments
How is drawing our attention to Otangelo's modus operandi uncivil or childish?Alan Fox
October 25, 2022
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Sev, ^^^ If you’ve nothing to add, just say so. No reason to be uncivil/childish.BobSinclair
October 25, 2022
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Trying to educate a creationist (Otangelo Grasso) Otangelo Grasso is a creationist who's convinced he can learn to understand biochemistry by reading what's on the internet and copy-pasting it into his website. He then takes that limited knowledge and concludes that evolution is impossible. He often poses "gotcha" questions based on his flawed understanding. His behavior isn't very different from most other creationists who suffer from Dunning-Kruger Disease but he happens to be someone who I thought could be educated. I was wrong. Over the years I've tried to correct a number of errors he's made so we could have an intelligent discussion about evolution. You can't have such a discussion if one side ignores facts and refuses to learn. Here's an example of a previous attempt: Fun and games with Otangelo Grasso about photosynthesis. Here's a post from yesterday showing that I wasted my time: Otangelo Grasso on photosynthesi.(sic) […]
Seversky
October 25, 2022
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Jerry: Everybody (human or single cell organism) does that every day. Yes. It's not evidence for "evolution" writ large. Tissue types, cell types, organs and body plans.Paxx
October 25, 2022
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PM1, maybe in studying physics, one becomes so familiar with random, randomising and stochastic patterns, effects, results that one forgets how it can be controversial. Temperature is a measure of average random kinetic energy per degree of freedom for molecules etc. There is even a definable negative temperature that is reflective of population inversion and some wag or other says that in physics a negative temperature [such as in a lasing medium] is higher than an infinite ordinary temperature. A bit of an in joke turning on definitions and molecular statistics. We can get randomness such as with a die by exploiting sensitive dependence on initial conditions with eight corners and twelve edges so the uppermost resting face is unpredictable reflective of flat random distribution; butterfly effect acting on the nominally mechanically necessary. Chain two or more dice and define outcome as sum of faces, voila, peaked distributions. Indeed a coin is a two sided die, chain 1,000 and flip at random, we get a peaked binomial distribution. Convert to paramagnetic domains in a mild field and we have a toy statistical mechanics physical case. Radioactivity is a random process, often tied to quantum tunnelling by which barrier potentials become in effect porous, giving a statistical decay curve with steady half life. In radiation safety, the focus was on how H2O is the commonest molecule and how ionisation makes reactive radicals, that then tear up the organic molecules in the cell. Disruptions to metabolic networks and to information then follow, clearly without mechanical predictable necessity [already hit hard by the butterfly effect] or plausible intelligently directed configuration. If bad enough one gets radiation sick, can die. At lower dosages, information degradation can go to cancer. Another joke, you tell the physics students at the party as they are the ones faintly glowing blue-green in the dark. But, even our brains are significantly radioactive as are bananas, K-40. So randomness is not an occult reification. We can evaluate it through algorithmic compressibility of description of outcomes in some description language. and so forth. Randomness does not mean, a world of chaos. Ponder, statistical distributions. KFkairosfocus
October 25, 2022
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PM1, the first teleology is in the algorithms encoded in D/RNA. An algorithm being a finite, goal directed stepwise process that halts. As in, goal directed. So, to, as in, goal. KFkairosfocus
October 24, 2022
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@21: "I’m sure a precise definition is available. The sticking point involves randomness." Maybe, but then everything depends on what we mean by "randomness". The evolutionists would tell us that evolution is "random" only in the following sense: there is no empirically detectable process that can foresee what traits would increase fitness and cause those traits to arise. There are, I would say, two main problems with the so-called "modern synthesis": mistaking natural selection to be a causal mechanism rather than a population-level effect, and far too much emphasis on genetic changes as a source of phenotypic diversity. There are multiple levels and kinds of phenotypic diversity, some of them are genetic and some of them not. Organisms are, first and foremost, alive, and we have lost sight of what that means: sensitive (aware of their surroundings) and capable of responding to those surroundings in a variety of ways. (Even the simplest of bacteria can discriminate between environmental states that are good for it and bad for it!) Or, to use a somewhat contentious term, teleology is real. The reason why evolutionary histories appear to be teleologically organized is because those histories are just very high-level summaries of what organisms are doing, and the reality of each and every individual organism really is teleologically organized. The chief error of the Modern Synthesis is to ignore the essential reality of organismal teleology -- and then assign quasi-magical powers to "mutation" and to "selection" to compensate.PyrrhoManiac1
October 24, 2022
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PM1, good point again. Cross-population differential reproductive success such that some go extinct and others survive and reproduce implies SUBTRACTION of the less favoured races, so it is not the source of fresh biological info, that has to come from sources of chance, incremental variation. I also argue that Orgel-Wicken functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information [FSCO/I] implies a sort of fine tuning, i.e. organisation, orientation and coupling of the right parts to achieve configuration based function. This points to how clumped at random clusters of such parts are overwhelmingly functionless gibberish as we see with sentences in ASCII strings vs meaningless random strings gyiuogsdthjcxyrd and again vs simple crystal cell like repetition sdsdsdsds . A term that came from Dembski is islands of function, I like to set such in the midst of seas of non function. An assembled Abu 6500 CT reel is different from what happens with shaking up parts in a bait bucket or scattering them over the bottom of the river. KFkairosfocus
October 24, 2022
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The thing to keep in mind is no one knows what the early earth was actually like, not to mention the various catastrophes that occurred like asteroid strikes. I think too often that some view it like a movie set.relatd
October 24, 2022
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Of course there's no such thing as "ns". The first and only clue you need, is that "natural selection" was conjured by a clueless individual, aka Darwin.Nonlin.org
October 24, 2022
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PM1 at 20, I'm sure a precise definition is available. The sticking point involves randomness.relatd
October 24, 2022
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Denis Walsh (philosopher of biology @ University of Toronto) argues in Organisms, Agency, and Evolution that we're better off thinking of natural selection as an effect than as a cause: natural selection is what tends to happen to populations over time as organisms do what they do. So the real business of evolution happens at the level of organisms, and natural selection is (in a sense) epiphenomenal. I mention this because what kind of evidence we're looking for depends on what we think natural selection is. If we think of natural selection as a causal mechanism of evolution, we'll be looking for one kind of evidence. If we think of natural selection as an effect on populations of what organisms tend to do, we'll be looking for a very different kind of evidence.PyrrhoManiac1
October 24, 2022
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it is just the opposite
Using non logic to refute logic especially to refute evidence plus logic never gets one anywhere. But if one’s ideology is an end result for which there is no proof, then what is one to do.jerry
October 24, 2022
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"to criticize its (Natural Selection's) sufficiency" To wit,
The waiting time problem in a model hominin population – 2015 Sep 17 John Sanford, Wesley Brewer, Franzine Smith, and John Baumgardner Excerpt: The program Mendel’s Accountant realistically simulates the mutation/selection process,,, Given optimal settings, what is the longest nucleotide string that can arise within a reasonable waiting time within a hominin population of 10,000? Arguably, the waiting time for the fixation of a “string-of-one” is by itself problematic (Table 2). Waiting a minimum of 1.5 million years (realistically, much longer), for a single point mutation is not timely adaptation in the face of any type of pressing evolutionary challenge. This is especially problematic when we consider that it is estimated that it only took six million years for the chimp and human genomes to diverge by over 5 % [1]. This represents at least 75 million nucleotide changes in the human lineage, many of which must encode new information. While fixing one point mutation is problematic, our simulations show that the fixation of two co-dependent mutations is extremely problematic – requiring at least 84 million years (Table 2). This is ten-fold longer than the estimated time required for ape-to-man evolution. In this light, we suggest that a string of two specific mutations is a reasonable upper limit, in terms of the longest string length that is likely to evolve within a hominin population (at least in a way that is either timely or meaningful). Certainly the creation and fixation of a string of three (requiring at least 380 million years) would be extremely untimely (and trivial in effect), in terms of the evolution of modern man. It is widely thought that a larger population size can eliminate the waiting time problem. If that were true, then the waiting time problem would only be meaningful within small populations. While our simulations show that larger populations do help reduce waiting time, we see that the benefit of larger population size produces rapidly diminishing returns (Table 4 and Fig. 4). When we increase the hominin population from 10,000 to 1 million (our current upper limit for these types of experiments), the waiting time for creating a string of five is only reduced from two billion to 482 million years. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4573302/ When Darwin’s Foundations Are Crumbling, What Will the (Darwinian) Faithful Do? Excerpt: Here’s a summation of the evolutionary picture that has emerged, according to Behe (in his new book "Darwin Devolves": • The large majority of mutations are degradatory, meaning they’re mutations in which the gene is broken or blunted. Genetic information has been lost, not gained. • Sometimes the degradation helps an organism survive. • When the degradation confers a survival advantage, the mutation spreads throughout the population by natural selection. In genetics, a loss of information generally translates into a loss of function, so it might seem counterintuitive to suppose that a degradatory mutation would confer a survival advantage. Behe gives several examples, though, of instances where damaged genes have been shown to aid survival. In the case of the sickle-cell gene, for example, a single amino acid change causes hemoglobin to behave in a way that inhibits growth of the malaria microbe. It’s a loss-of-function mutation, but it confers a survival advantage in malaria-prone regions. The upshot of all this is that Darwin was right in believing that natural selection operating on random variations can cause organisms to become adapted to their environments, but he was wrong in believing that the process was constructive. Nowhere has the Darwinian mechanism been shown to build a complex system. It has only been shown to modify an already-existing system, usually in a loss-of-function manner. This is significant enough to upend the Darwinian narrative, but it gets worse. The same factors that contribute to adaptation work to prevent a species from evolving much further. Random mutation and natural selection quickly adjust species to their environmental niches, Behe writes, and then they maroon them there. He cites results from the long-running experiment conducted by Michigan State microbiologist Richard Lenski, whose E. coli lineage has surpassed 65,000 generations (equivalent to more than a million years for a large, complex species like humans), as sound evidence that random mutations wreak havoc in a species—and then that havoc gets frozen in place by natural selection. Behe sums up his main argument like this: “beneficial degradative mutations will rapidly, relentlessly, unavoidably, outcompete beneficial constructive mutations at every time and population scale.”1 The only Darwinian examples of evolution that have been observed have followed this pattern and resulted in evolutionary dead ends. Darwin devolves.,,,, https://salvomag.com/article/salvo49/darwinism-dissembled
bornagain77
October 24, 2022
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I do not believe that these two following methods (that I also see above in the discussion) work to discredit evolution: 1. One cannot use logic to "show" that natural selection does not work, e.g. "..It will make me or the organism better today but the change that does that will have to change shortly to some other environment if it can or else I/the organism will be bye-bye." Indeed, it is just the opposite. It is logically possible that a reproducing and varying "thing" MAY adapt to its surroundings, if the variations span a sufficiently large palette. 2. Arguing that natural selection is NOT a cause is not a useful argument to discredit the role of natural selection. Proteins are composed of wiggling and jiggling atoms due to thermal energy, that is provided by the random collision to other atoms, yet they may change their conformations for catalysis. Hence, random events may be a CAUSE of an organized motion. If one does not like this epistemic view, one may argue a different wording instead of cause, i.e. the cause of the conformational change is the inherent design of the protein, activated by the thermal energy. However, both descriptions indicate identical phenomenon. As I have said in my post above, the convenient argument to discredit the role of natural selection in evolution , i.e. the adaptation to the environment as a result of reproduction and variation, shoud be to criticize its sufficiency. I believe that the real problem with Darwinian people lies in not feeling the requirement to show detailed pathways of how organisms have evolved, but leave these to "future" studies with their infinite belief (that's what I'm calling a Bayesian prior) in the sufficiency of this mechanism. I think this part should be emphasized more to persuade people, instead of the logical and epistemological status of natural selection.CuriousCat
October 24, 2022
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Otangelo at 7:
"The point I try to convey is not that natural selection does not act. But its effects cannot be predicted, tested, and quantified, and how it affects fitness. A theory or hypothesis that cannot be tested, is by definition, non-scientific."
Well, I think you are being just a little bit too charitable to Natural Selection is saying that it may 'act' (as a cause). As even the late William Provine himself honestly confessed, “Natural selection does not act on anything, nor does it select (for, or against), force, maximize, create, modify, shape, operate, drive, favor, maintain, push or adjust. Natural selection does nothing. Natural selection as a natural force belongs in the insubstantial category already populated by the Necker/Stahl phlogiston or Newton’s ‘ether’",,,
“Natural selection does not act on anything, nor does it select (for, or against), force, maximize, create, modify, shape, operate, drive, favor, maintain, push or adjust. Natural selection does nothing. Natural selection as a natural force belongs in the insubstantial category already populated by the Necker/Stahl phlogiston or Newton’s ‘ether’…Having natural selection select is nifty because it excuses the necessity of talking about the actual causation of natural selection. Such talk was excusable for Charles Darwin, but inexcusable for Darwinists now. Creationists have discovered our empty ‘natural selection’ language, and the ‘actions’ of natural selection make huge vulnerable targets.” – William B. Provine, The Origins of Theoretical Population Genetics (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2001), 199-200
And although Darwinists, in their imaginary just-so stories, often speak as if Natural selection is "done consciously by the selecting agent", in the real world Natural Selection is not an actual 'cause' that acts on anything but, as Adam Sedgwick pointed out to Charles Darwin himself, Natural selection is merely "a secondary consequence of supposed, or known, primary facts."
From Adam Sedgwick – 24 November 1859 – Cambridge My dear Darwin, Excerpt: As to your grand principle—natural selection—what is it but a secondary consequence of supposed, or known, primary facts. Development is a better word because more close to the cause of the fact.,,, You write of “natural selection” as if it were done consciously by the selecting agent.,,, We all admit development as a fact of history; but how came it about?,,, https://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/letter/DCP-LETT-2548.xml
In short, with Natural selection not being an actual 'cause' that 'acts' on anything, but, in actuality, being nothing more than a 'secondary consequence' of supposed, or known, primary facts', (and as Berlinski pointed out), "Natural selection disappears as a biological force and reappears as a statistical artifact."
The Strength of Natural Selection in the Wild - David Berlinski - April 25, 2005 Excerpt: Natural selection disappears as a biological force and reappears as a statistical artifact. The change is not trivial. It is one thing to say that nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution; it is quite another thing to say that nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of various regression correlations between quantitative characteristics. It hardly appears obvious that if natural selection is simply a matter of correlations established between quantitative traits, that Darwin’s theory has any content beyond the phenomenological, and in the most obvious sense, is no theory at all. - Berlinski http://www.discovery.org/a/2531/
Moreover, (and unsurprisingly given that it is, in reality, a 'secondary consequence'), Natural Selection, and/or fitness, cannot be rigorously measured, and/or even rigorously defined, so obviously Natural Selection, and/or fitness, can never be used as a useful scientific tool that we are able to make accurate, and testable, predictions with,
Darwin’s Theory of Natural Selection Has Left a Legacy of Confusion over Biological Adaptation Brian Miller - September 20, 2021 Excerpt: Evolutionary biologist Robert Reid stated: "Indeed the language of neo-Darwinism is so careless that the words ‘divine plan’ can be substituted for ‘selection pressure’ in any popular work in the biological literature without the slightest disruption in the logical flow of argument." Robert Reid, Biological Emergences: Evolution by Natural Experiment, PP. 37-38 (2009) To fully comprehend the critique, one simply needs to imagine attempting to craft an evolutionary barometer that measures the selection pressure driving one organism to transform into something different (e.g., fish into an amphibian). The fact that no such instrument could be constructed highlights the fictitious nature of such mystical forces. https://evolutionnews.org/2021/09/darwins-theory-of-natural-selection-has-left-a-legacy-of-confusion-over-biological-adaptation/ Evolutionary Fitness Is Not Measurable - November 20, 2021 The central concept of natural selection cannot be measured. This means it has no scientific value. Excerpt:,, to measure something, it needs units. How is fitness to be measured? What are the units? Physicists have degrees Kelvin, ergs and Joules of energy and Faradays of electricity, but do 100 Spencers on a Haeckl-o-meter equal 10 Darwins of fitness? ,,, The term “fitness” becomes nebulous when you try to pin it down. Five evolutionists attempted to nail this jello to the wall, and wrote up their results in a preprint on bioRxiv by Alif et al. that asked, “What is the best fitness measure in wild populations?” (One might wonder why this question is being asked 162 years after Darwin presented his theory to the world.) ,,, The authors admit that their results do not necessarily apply to all living things. (they state), "A universal definition of fitness in mathematical terms that applies to all population structures and dynamics is however not agreed on." Remember that this statement comes over 162 years after evolutionists began talking about fitness. If you cannot define something, how can you measure it? And if you can’t measure it, is it really scientific?,,, https://crev.info/2021/11/evolutionary-fitness-is-not-measurable/ Where is the purposelessness of evolution? – 23 March 2012, Excerpt: The only way variation is seen as random is that it is random in respect to the effect variation has on fitness. The major problem with this is that the precise meaning of fitness has not been settled. There is still a major debate about what exactly fitness is supposed to mean (see this post for more on this issue). John O. Reiss notes also make the following interesting remark: “The rigor of this approach, however, is lessened because there is as yet no universally agreed upon measure of fitness; fitness is either defined metaphorically, or defined only relative to the particular model or system used. It is fair to say that due to this lack, there is still no real agreement on what exactly the process of natural selection is. This is clearly a problem.” Without a proper definition of fitness, we can’t really say what natural selection is in the first place.,,, https://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Where-is-the-purposelessness-of-evolution-20120322
So thus Otangelo, you are completely correct in your observation that, "(Natural Selection's) effects cannot be predicted, tested, and quantified, and how it affects fitness. A theory or hypothesis that cannot be tested, is by definition, non-scientific",,,, ,,, the only place I take exception with your statement at 7 Otangelo is that you have given, (an ever so small), place that Natural Selection may ‘act’ (as a cause).,,, That simply is not the case. Natural Selection simply is not a 'cause' that can 'act' on anything but is only, and can only ever be, a 'secondary consequence of supposed, or known, primary facts" (Sedgwick). In conclusion, Natural selection, (Darwin’s supposed ‘designer substitute’, (Dawkins, Mayr, Ayala)), functions far more in the realm of imagination, and fictional ‘just-so story’ telling, than it ever does, or ever will, in the real world of empirical science and cause and effect
Why Do We Invoke Darwin? Evolutionary theory contributes little to experimental biology PHILIP S. SKELL AUGUST 29, 2005 Excerpt: Darwinian explanations for such things are often too supple: Natural selection makes humans self-centered and aggressive, except when it makes them altruistic and peaceable. Or natural selection produces virile men who eagerly spread their seed, except when it prefers men who are faithful protectors and providers. When an explanation is so supple that it can explain any behavior, it is difficult to test it experimentally, much less use it as a catalyst for scientific discovery. Darwinian evolution, whatever its other virtues, does not provide a fruitful heuristic in experimental biology. https://www.discovery.org/a/2816/ Sociobiology: The Art of Story Telling – Stephen Jay Gould – 1978 – New Scientist Excerpt: Rudyard Kipling asked how the leopard got its spots, the rhino its wrinkled skin. He called his answers “Just So stories”. When evolutionists study individual adaptations, when they try to explain form and behaviour by reconstructing history and assessing current utility, they also tell just so stories – and the agent is natural selection. Virtuosity in invention replaces testability as the criterion for acceptance. – per google books
Verse:
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
bornagain77
October 24, 2022
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Adjusting to environmental change.
Everybody (human or single cell organism) does that every day. Today, it is raining and cool so I will wear a rain jacket. Tomorrow it may be something different. My gut bacteria will adjust to my food intake each day. Is that progress? It could change tomorrow to something different. It's trivial which is my point. Any change produced by natural selection is trivial over the long haul. It will make me or the organism better today but the change that does that will have to change shortly to some other environment if it can or else I/the organism will be bye-bye. Two things: the changes that happen through natural selection lead to dead ends by reducing variation. How is anything complex produce through reduced variation? When the geniuses of evolutionary biology figure that out, let me know? Second, if the change led to any significant improvement, it would destroy itself. It now makes the ecology in which it inhabits more unstable and thus likely to disappear, thus ending the organism with the significant improvement. In other words natural selection must be trivial or else it eliminates the organism that experience the significant change (if such a change is possible.) Besides, it is about genomic change and Evolution is the result of something other that produces changes in body plans.
You lost me at Bayesian
Don't be upset Chuck. Lost is your natural state. Maybe someday you will find your way.jerry
October 24, 2022
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Jerry: What progress? Adjusting to environmental change.Paxx
October 24, 2022
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CuriousCat/1 You lost me at Bayesian…….chuckdarwin
October 24, 2022
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the progress of the bacteria
What progress?jerry
October 23, 2022
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jerry @10, From an engineering standpoint, the progress of the bacteria is a helluva thing. It's almost as if they were designed to adapt. ;)Paxx
October 23, 2022
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You must have heard of Richard Lenski’s long term evolution experiment
You mean
You must have heard of Richard Lenski’s long term genetic experiment
Absolutely shows that natural selection contracts rather than expands a genome.
hard thing is testing the creative power of natural selection
There is no creative power. It’s zero. It contracts rather than expands.jerry
October 23, 2022
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The hard thing is testing the creative power of natural selection.hnorman42
October 23, 2022
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@ Otangelo You must have heard of Richard Lenski's long term evolution experiment.Alan Fox
October 23, 2022
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The point I try to convey is not that natural selection does not act. But its effects cannot be predicted, tested, and quantified, and how it affects fitness. A theory or hypothesis that cannot be tested, is by definition, non-scientific. Increasing our ability to predict contemporary evolution 05 November 2020 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19437-xOtangelo
October 23, 2022
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Natural selection just means context pressures. Nothing more or less. So yes, it's a valid concept. But random variation + context pressures cannot be extrapolated for the macro structures such as cell types, tissue types, organs and body plans. Any narrative that asserts such is simply blind evolution of the gaps. Not science.Paxx
October 23, 2022
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From the-third-way-of-evolution website (founded by mainstream scientists, evolutionists, e.g. James Shapiro, Eugene Koonin and many others)
Moreover, some Neo-Darwinists have elevated Natural Selection into a unique creative force that solves all the difficult evolutionary problems without a real empirical basis.
This quote is right on their title page https://www.thethirdwayofevolution.com/martin_r
October 23, 2022
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Jerry, if natural selection would be real, there wouldn’t be such a life diversity ….martin_r
October 23, 2022
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You are the best, Jerry. I promise I won't let on! ;)Alan Fox
October 23, 2022
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Natural selection is alive and well. No serious person denies it. It is just very limited in what it can do. It leads to dead ends in biological change. Ask Michael Behe. It is most definitely is not in any way the cause for Evolution. Those who claim it is a factor are committing the fallacy of “Begging the Question.” Natural selection works in genetics. Genetics has nothing to do with Evolution. Genetics and natural selection should be a basic of ID. It is great design. Unfortunately this is not well understood by a large percentage of ID advocates.jerry
October 23, 2022
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