Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Is there only one brand of science?

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In a recent post over at Why Evolution Is True, Professor Jerry Coyne addresses what he regards as the “main incompatibility between science and religion.” Coyne is confident that science is a legitimate arbiter of truth because “there’s only one brand of science, with most scientists agreeing on what’s true,” whereas “there are tens of thousands of brands of religion, many making conflicting and incompatible claims.” In today’s short post, I’d like to explain why Coyne’s assertion about science is fundamentally mistaken.

First of all, “conflicting claims” and “conflicting brands” are two very different things. At any given moment, there are literally thousands of conflicting and incompatible claims being made within each field of science. That’s part of the way science is done. Scientists call these claims hypotheses. Scientific hypotheses are continually being tested, and the vast majority of them end up being falsified or substantially modified. However, multiple conflicting claims don’t overthrow the unity of science, because scientists all agree on a single method for testing those claims: the scientific method (illustrated below, image courtesy of Professor Theodore Garland and Wikipedia). Right?

Wrong. As philosopher Paul Feyerabend trenchantly argued in his work, Against Method, the notion that there is a fixed scientific method is a myth:

Against Method explicitly drew the “epistemological anarchist” conclusion that there are no useful and exceptionless methodological rules governing the progress of science or the growth of knowledge. The history of science is so complex that if we insist on a general methodology which will not inhibit progress the only “rule” it will contain will be the useless suggestion: “anything goes”. In particular, logical empiricist methodologies and Popper’s Critical Rationalism would inhibit scientific progress by enforcing restrictive conditions on new theories.
(Preston, John, “Paul Feyerabend“, The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Spring 2016 Edition), edited by Edward N. Zalta.)

Professor Coyne might reply that while the scientific method evolves over the course of time, it is still something which all branches of science are more or less agreed on, at any given point in time. But this won’t do, either. Consider the sciences of cosmology, chemistry, biology, psychology and archaeology. Can anyone credibly claim that these branches of science all practice the same method? The only thing which these various disciplines could be said to share in common is that they continually generate hypotheses which can be be tested and experimentally falsified. Is falsifiability the hallmark of science, then? Alas, no: it turns out to be neither sufficient nor necessary to define science.

One problem with the falsifiability criterion is that it is far too loose: religions could also be said to generate hypotheses and discard them when they prove false. The history of the Millerite movement affords an excellent illustration of this point. In 1822, a Baptist lay preacher named William Miller became convinced that the return of Christ would take place around the year 1843. He gathered quite a following, and when 1843 passed without incident, another preacher named Samuel Sheffield Snow, who was a disciple of Miller, announced his conclusion that the Second Coming would take place on October 22, 1844, instead. Many of Miller’s followers were sadly disillusioned when this prophecy also failed to eventuate, but some formed new churches of their own, the most notable of which is the Seventh Day Adventist Church. October 22, 1844 was reinterpreted as the date when Christ entered the Holy of Holies in the heavenly sanctuary, and began his “investigative judgment” of God’s professed followers. The Second Coming will occur shortly after a “time of trouble,” when the Church will be persecuted worldwide.

Another problem with the falsifiability criterion is that not all scientists accept it, anyway. In a provocative 2014 article for Edge, theoretical physicist Sean Carroll described falsifiability as a scientific idea “ready for retirement.” Carroll argued that the virtue of any scientific theory lies in its ability to account for the data, regardless of whether the theory is empirically falsifiable or not. Carroll contended that if string theory and the theory of the multiverse are able to unify physics and account for our observations, then it makes perfect sense for scientists to accept these theories, even though we have no way of falsifying them:

In complicated situations, fortune-cookie-sized mottos like “theories should be falsifiable” are no substitute for careful thinking about how science works. Fortunately, science marches on, largely heedless of amateur philosophizing. If string theory and multiverse theories help us understand the world, they will grow in acceptance. If they prove ultimately too nebulous, or better theories come along, they will be discarded. The process might be messy, but nature is the ultimate guide.

Professor Carroll’s views remain highly controversial, and many prominent scientists vehemently disagree with them. In an article in Nature (vol. 516, pp. 321–323, 18 December 2014) titled, Scientific method: Defend the integrity of physics, physicists George Ellis and Joe Silk concur with the verdict of theoretical physicist Sabine Hossenfelder, that “post-empirical science is an oxymoron,” and they conclude that “[t]he imprimatur of science should be awarded only to a theory that is testable.” Nevertheless, it is undeniably true that over the course of time, many scientific theories end up becoming immune to falsification, simply because they come to define an entire field. It is safe to say that atomic theory will never be overturned, because it defines the field of chemistry; and evolutionists would have us believe that their theory defines the science of biology, in a similar fashion. (Of course, it doesn’t; as Dr. Jonathan Wells has pointed out, if anything defines the science of biology, it’s cell theory, which it is safe to say will never be falsified, either.)

We have seen that the view that there is a single way of doing science is a historically naive notion, which forces the various branches of science into a straitjacket and overlooks their vital differences. But there is another, deep-seated flaw associated with the “single method” view. What it ignores is that within a given branch of science, there are often profound and ongoing differences between individual scientists as to how that branch of science should be practiced. This is true not only for the arcane science of theoretical physics, but also for sciences such as biology and psychology, as well. Wikipedia lists no fewer than 40 different schools of psychology, for instance. It is very hard to see what a radical behaviorist who denies the reality of mental states has in common with a cognitive psychologist, for whom mental states play a vital explanatory role. What separates these schools of thought is not just their theories, but their whole view of what it means to be a human being. In particular, is what we call “thinking” merely a complicated piece of behavior, or is it something which we need to posit in order to explain our behavior?

The example cited above might be dismissed by people who regard psychology as a “soft” science. But nobody can deny that biology is a bona fide science. And what is becoming increasingly apparent, in the twenty-first century, is that the field of biology is fragmenting. The ongoing feud between Darwinists and adherents of Motoo Kimura’s neutral theory of evolution may perhaps be papered over. But it cannot be denied that evolutionary biologist Eugene Koonin’s appeal to “the logic of chance” and to multiverse theory, as a way of explaining “biological big bangs,” is far removed from conventional evolutionary theory. Professor James Shapiro’s concept of natural genetic engineering, which he touts as a new paradigm for understanding biological evolution, is another example of the fragmentation currently occurring within the science of biology. Dr. Michael Denton’s structuralism (an idea he borrows from the nineteenth century biologist Richard Owen), is an even more radical case in point, as it rejects historical explanations for a host of complex structures, in favor of “laws of form.” Lastly, it could be said that the Intelligent Design movement represents a fundamentally different approach to the science of biology from that favored by most scientists during the past 140 years – one in which intelligent agency plays a vital role in explaining biological systems which perform a highly specific function, but whose origin cannot plausibly be ascribed to either chance, necessity or some combination of the two.

The most that could be said for Coyne’s simplistic claim that there is “only one brand of science” is that within any branch of science, there may be long periods during which there is a “dominant paradigm” which dictates how that particular science should be practiced, and that there is a “family resemblance” between the various ways in which science is practiced, in different fields. Professor Coyne had the good fortune to grow up during a period when a single “dominant paradigm” governed the science of evolutionary biology. Now, the dominant paradigm has splintered; and perhaps Coyne would be well-advised to reconcile himself to Chairman Mao Zedong’s policy of “letting a hundred flowers bloom and a hundred schools of thought contend.”

At any rate, what is beyond dispute is that Professor Coyne’s trumpeting of the methodological unity of science as a ground for making it the sole arbiter of truth can no longer be defended: it is philosophically naive, historically inaccurate and at odds with the way in which real science is done. Coyne’s diatribe against the “tens of thousands of brands of religion, many making conflicting and incompatible claims,” is equally ill-informed: almost 70% of humanity now adheres to just one of three religions (Christianity, Islam and Hinduism, which are all broadly monotheistic), and it is fair to say that the 800-million-odd adherents of folk and indigenous religions will probably be absorbed into one of these three religions (or Buddhism), with the rise of globalization. What’s more, the claims of Christianity, Islam and Judaism are certainly testable over the long-term, and all of these religions are potentially falsifiable by scientific discoveries. (I’ve previously described what would falsify my Christian faith, and the claims of Islam would be falsified if it could be shown that Muhammad was not a real person, while Judaism’s credibility depends critically on the long-term fate of the Jewish people.) In short: the claim that science occupies a uniquely privileged position as an arbiter of truth rests on a distorted view of both science and religion – and, I might add, it naively ignores the discipline of philosophy, which informs both endeavors.

What do readers think?

Comments
Hey Querius where is your computer model and theory you are required to present for testing like I did? Current models: http://intelligencegenerator.blogspot.com/ Current theory: http://theoryofid.blogspot.com/ Method: https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/intelligent-design/more-scientists-doubt-materialism-explains-consciousness/#comment-598589 Scientifically support your assertions. Like that!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GaryGaulin
Unbelievable. Your response in 77 has no connection to what I said in 76. Don't you see that? - I'm promoting the novel concept that you support your assertions with evidence. Your simply making an assertion is not evidence. Eventually brushing you off may be a result of your not supporting your assertions, but currently I'm merely drawing attention to your unsupported assertions. - My purpose in life is not to dig up volumes of evidence for you to ignore as you continue to make unsupported assertions as they pop into your head. Do your own homework. -Q Querius
Querius, I am not sure what you are here to promote. But brushing off everything I said is a good sign that it is scientifically unreasonable. If you want to try prove me wrong then show me your scientific plan. If it is better than mine then I will have to go with yours. But you first must propose something reasonable. What exactly do you have? GaryGaulin
GaryGaulin, What you wrote is a carnival of unsupported and vacuous assertions. Try taking each sentence above and providing even a paltry shred of evidence to support it. -Q Querius
See #7 and #8 for details on how ID has to go, or it goes nowhere: https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/philosophy/design-contest-with-cash-prize/#comment-598193 The computer models and theory I represent are the only things ID has for serious experimenters who make the science world go round. As a result that is now what most defines what ID scientifically explains. It's the power of science at work again. In this case the "it looks designed to me" arguments do not on their own travel from science lab to science lab by word of mouth or email. People are bored by the usual, or just plain hate ID because of it. It's also generally accepted that some in the ID movement are simply unreasonable. Doing so just joins them. No matter what you do the reason wins. And with this also being like one more act under the big-tent it's not my fault that the other acts put together that right away worked but is the sort of thing that loses its novelty with time. All else that was said and done is just fine to at least draw a crowd. But getting them to come back again after that is not so easy. GaryGaulin
I only say it looks designed once it is established that no one else has any testable alternative and it meets the design criteria. GG:
You are so out of touch with science reality
Except that is how science works, Gary. See Newton's four rules of scientific investigation. Virgil Cain
velikovskys:
Right, the study of design in nature is the study of the who, when ,how, and why not a separate question.
That doesn't follow from what I said. All of those are separate from whether or not design exists and whether or not we can study it. All of those questions come after we have determined design exists. Virgil Cain
Gary Gaulin is confused. For one ID does not require any supernatural explanations. For another intelligent causes work by manipulating nature for a purpose. Virgil Cain
jerry: I find a lot of similarities between them and with the aid of a lot of colleagues who do not know my ID leanings, determine that nearly all members of the group could have descended from a population of bovids that existed 10-15 million years ago. Humans are just deuterostomes, tubes with appendages for shoving food into one end. Microevolution! Zachriel
And you are also starting with the conclusion that our biological creator also created matter/energy without your ever providing any scientific evidence at all for that conclusion being true.
You used the term "creator" which ID does not use. The term is associated with the creation of the universe not necessarily life and life forms. In the bible of Judaism and Christianity the term creator is also associated with the creation of life but especially humans. Since we are not talking about religion but biology, a natural thing to assume is that you are associating the creation of the universe with the subsequent naturalistic appearance of life which many do. Many assume one flows from the other. ID does not make that assumption but mainly indicates it likely did not happen this way. So please try to understand what ID is about before criticizing ID.
Progress is made by taking things one step at a time. Not by giving up.
I have no idea what this means. No one in ID is giving up on anything.
Why are you showing me an apparently fictional example? Could not find a real one?
I was making the statement that anyone who is conducting research on genome mapping is doing ID science even if they hate what ID is about. We have a couple frequent commenters here who fit into that category. All I was doing is pointing this out. Again if you do not see this, then you should refrain from criticizing until you understand. It is obvious that you do not understand ID.
And what am I? Useless dirt that deserves to be spit-on?
Interesting comment given all the criticizing you have done without understanding what ID is about. And by the way, this site is not an official ID site. Yes, it has been set up to explain what ID is about but attracts people with all sorts of views both pro and con. My guess is that a lot of the pro ID people will not agree with my point of view on the world. I certainly do not agree with the view points of many of the pro ID people on every thing. jerry
Virgil: Well archaeologists do not study the who as the who is long gone. The "who" can be both an individual or a group of people, Otzi is an example of the individual And they study the design and all relevant evidence in order to determine the how, when and why. Right, the study of design in nature is the study of the who, when ,how, and why not a separate question. velikovskys
Mung is good at showing why reasonable people with a good science background normally stay away from ID, they are not welcomed where real science work must at all cost be avoided. But with Michael Denton's book not being what they thought it was and all the protest against "naturalism" getting them in even bigger unforeseen trouble all is still going very well for myself, and lurkers of this blog who are likewise disgusted but at the same time amused by their self-defeating charade. GaryGaulin
Why are you showing me an apparently fictional example? You didn't type squat. Got it. And what am I? Useless dirt that deserves to be spit-on? Rhetorical question. Mung
jerry:
Second, to believe you can fathom how the creator works is incredible hubris. No one has a remote clue how the creator caused the universe to come into existence.
You just moved the goalposts into an area that the premise of the theory of intelligent design does not even require to be explained right now. And you are also starting with the conclusion that our biological creator also created matter/energy without your ever providing any scientific evidence at all for that conclusion being true. Progress is made by taking things one step at a time. Not by giving up. jerry:
Here is an example I made up several years ago of an ID scientist at work:
Why are you showing me an apparently fictional example? Could not find a real one? And what am I? Useless dirt that deserves to be spit-on? GaryGaulin
Constantly avoiding your responsibility to explain how intelligent cause works is a symptom of belief that how our creator works is somehow beyond scientific investigation
This is a nonsense statement. It is becoming obvious that you do not understand what ID is about and that you are trying to impose some distorted view on it. First, look around you and you will see millions of events each day that are caused by intelligent intervention. When you press the keys on your keyboard you are exhibiting an event with an intelligent cause. Try constructing a theory to explain how keyboard keys are depressed and how this theory will predict keyboard depression in the future using the four basic forces of physics to produce a specific comment on UD. An intelligent intervention is by definition a suspension of the four basic forces and the ways it can be done are infinite. So asking for a theory to explain intelligent behavior is a fool's errand. We have imperfect attempts at it with psychology and even behavioral biology but to ask anyone for how an intelligence created and then changed life forms is a stupid task. It could be accomplished a million different ways, all ad hoc. Second, to believe you can fathom how the creator works is incredible hubris. No one has a remote clue how the creator caused the universe to come into existence. We understand the four basic forces to some extent but no one has even a remote clue as to what actually cause the specific force to happen. If you believe that somehow life came about naturally and that changes in life forms happened naturally, then join those who are trying to substantiate that but don't criticize something you obviously do not understand. There is no theory of ID in the sense that there is a theory of plate tectonics or fluid mechanics or astro physics all of which flow from the four basic forces. ID is trying to evaluate events where these forces are over-ridden. What ID does is use all the tools of science in certain disciplines but allows different conclusions than normal science based on the likelihood that an intelligence most likely intervened somewhere. It is anything but a predictable event and maybe only happened once while in the disciplines I listed the events are almost infinite in number. It is also anything but methodological naturalism. Here is an example I made up several years ago of an ID scientist at work:
Make believe I am a scientist. Call me Professor Per. I secretly support ID. I do work mapping the genomes of bovid mammals because many of these animals are domesticated and I get support for this from the government. I find a lot of similarities between them and with the aid of a lot of colleagues who do not know my ID leanings, determine that nearly all members of the group could have descended from a population of bovids that existed 10-15 million years ago. In other words there is fairly conclusive proof that this family has descended from a population with a gene pool much larger than any of the genera gene pools through micro evolution processes. And in this time period of 10-15 million years they did not develop any new functional systems or any proteins that could not be reasonably be due to small changes to a proceeding protein that was in the original population. In other words all 130+ species developed by simple Darwinian processes that could be replicated much quicker artificially if the scientists had access to the original gene pool and with an occasional mutation or two. In other words while the work supported basic Darwinian processes, it also supported Behe’s edge of evolution concept. And while my colleagues are celebrating our achievement as scientific proof of the power of natural selection, I know that this achievement has basically undermined the power of naturalistic evolution as expressed in the latest synthesis. It is another nail in the coffin of naturalistic evolution because in all these opportunities no novel complex capabilities arose. Oh there were some interesting morphological changes but no new systems. The environment, separation of sub populations, genetic processes and natural selection just narrowed the original gene pool and produced a bunch of new species. So did I do ID science? Yes, Did I contribute to the ID agenda? Yes, Did I use CSI anywhere? Maybe, I found the lack of new FCSI in all these reproductive opportunities but I do not express it that way. Our team list all the changes and they are many that took place but none exceed that boundary that Behe hypothesized several years earlier. I know a modern Michael Behe will pounce on the data and come to the right conclusions. But my career is now in high gear and I am off to supervise a similar but much larger project on aves, a class and with much higher number of species. And I expect to find the same thing even if it takes 20 years. I am a hero to the evolutionary biology crowd but smile inwardly as they are really celebrating their down fall. I love many of these people who are very decent but have often wondered why there is so much hostility to something that to me seems so obvious. Not one person in the science community would say I wasn’t doing science. And yet we should all agree that I was doing ID science too. My point of view just leads me to occasionally conclude different things. After all I believe Darwinian processes do work to a limited degree. The reality is that if they ever suspected my motives or leanings I would have been fired or ostracized or not given the opportunities. The point I am making here is that even if the person I am describing did not believe in ID or had any leanings that way and did not have to suppress their inner leanings because they didn’t have any, they were doing ID research. But what if they find not only the gradual appearance of complex novel capabilities and the likely cause is some natural process but that there were several instances and that these examples are compelling. Well that is the risk or the opportunity that is taken and how the argument will be evaluated 30-50 years from now. Will Behe’s Edge of Evolution be supported or undermined? So there is no question that ID is scientific in at least this area and the difference between this and other science is small and is really only in the conclusions that one makes based on the data. And who knows if ID leanings may have led this person as a scientist to pursue different areas that an a non ID scientist would have never thought of.
The number of ways that ID science can be practiced is not endless but we could probably find hundreds of examples of how an ID scientist could work on the same issues as other scientists. This scientist would not be restricted to the conclusions he or she would make after the study was completed. For example, an ID scientist could work on protein folding experiments and theories. He could come to the same conclusions as an non-ID scientist he is working with. Both would conclude that viable folding proteins are incredibly rare. Such a finding would support ID hypotheses and no one has to claim they are ID scientists though one here is. jerry
LoL! @ Gary Gaulin- I only say it looks designed once it is established that no one else has any testable alternative and it meets the design criteria.
You are so out of touch with science reality that I suspect your condition is permanent.
How am I a strict follower of methodological naturalism?
Making your supernatural explanations exempt from scientific inquiry makes it easier for you to get away with saying "ID has never been about the designer nor the process used" and "But do tell how we are supposed to figure out how something that is beyond our capabilities to make was made when we can’t even do so with the artifacts we have, which we can make?" Constantly avoiding your responsibility to explain how intelligent cause works is a symptom of belief that how our creator works is somehow beyond scientific investigation, which is exactly what methodological naturalism teaches. If the opposite were true of the ID movement then the very first thing you and others would have done is get busy on your theory to explain how our creator (God) works, like I did. In my case I am NOT an adherent to methodological naturalism. I'm an example of what science looks like without it. GaryGaulin
Intelligent Design is the study of patterns in nature that are best explained as the result of intelligence. -- William A. Dembski
and
“Once specified complexity tells us that something is designed, there is nothing to stop us from inquiring into its production. A design inference therefore does not avoid the problem of how a designing intelligence might have produced an object. It simply makes it a separate question.” Wm. Dembski- pg 112 of No Free Lunch
We have to first determine design exists before we ask any other questions about it.
Intelligent design begins with a seemingly innocuous question: Can objects, even if nothing is known about how they arose, exhibit features that reliably signal the action of an intelligent cause? Wm. Dembski
Yes, they can. Most of the science of ID goes into determining whether or not design exists and where it exists. Virgil Cain
LoL! @ Gary Gaulin- I only say it looks designed once it is established that no one else has any testable alternative and it meets the design criteria. Also don't be upset because you were talking about things you didn't understand and were caught. How am I a strict follower of methodological naturalism? And why the need for a meltdown? Virgil Cain
Virgil Cain:
Well archaeologists do not study the who as the who is long gone. And they study the design and all relevant evidence in order to determine the how, when and why.
And paleontologists, ichnologists, geologists and others study the changes that have occurred over time on this planet. But you're certainly not among them either, or helping. Instead of explaining how your "intelligent cause" works you're throwing insults while looking busy by finding new ways to chant "it looks designed to me". Your subjective opinion does not amount to a testable scientific theory. But from what I am discovering: to a strict follower of methodical naturalism like yourself the belief in unexplainable "supernatural" intervention seems like part of the scientific method or a whole new one where what you want to believe should be all anyone ever needs from you, scientific evidence is only required from everyone else. GaryGaulin
velikovskys:
What do you “study design in nature ” if not how,who, when, and why?
Well archaeologists do not study the who as the who is long gone. And they study the design and all relevant evidence in order to determine the how, when and why. Virgil Cain
Virgil's: To be clear- ID does not prevent anyone from trying to answer the questions of “who, why, how and when”. Those are just separate questions from the main which is to detect and then study design in nature. What do you "study design in nature " if not how,who, when, and why? velikovskys
To be clear- ID does not prevent anyone from trying to answer the questions of "who, why, how and when". Those are just separate questions from the main which is to detect and then study design in nature. And guess what? We answer those other questions by doing that and putting all of the pieces together. Virgil Cain
Hi Gary Gaulin:
If you are uninterested in explaining the “process used” then shame on all of you for having claimed to be representing a scientific organization.
You are very confused, Gary. ID isn't about the process because guess what? We don't have to know that before we can determine design exists. That comes AFTER. And guess what? Many archaeological finds fit that category- we don't know how the artifacts were made. But do tell how we are supposed to figure out how something that is beyond our capabilities to make was made when we can't even do so with the artifacts we have, which we can make? Virgil Cain
Virgil Cain:
And ID has always been about the DESIGN. ID has never been about the designer nor the process used- Dembski NFL 2004
If you are uninterested in explaining the "process used" then shame on all of you for having claimed to be representing a scientific theory, from a scientific organization. GaryGaulin
Evolution, like natural selection, is a result of processes like variation, fecundity and heredity. Virgil Cain
Hi Gary Gaulin- Just cuz wikipedia sez that GAs model natural selection doesn't make it so. Try thinking for yourself. Geez. AGAIN- GAs are search heuristics that actively search for solutions to the problems they were designed to solve. NS is not a search and isn't actively doing anything. And ID has always been about the DESIGN. ID has never been about the designer nor the process used- Dembski NFL 2004 Virgil Cain
MatSpirit- You have reading comprehension issues: “It started with Darwin and it has continued through today.”
So Darwin, who died in 1882, said that he had a step by step description of how ATP evolved when ATP wasn’t even discovered until 1929?
That isn't what I said. Try again. Virgil Cain
But the word "evolution" is for a process. Scientists can get annoyed by using it as a placeholder for one or more theories to explain how the (very well evidenced) process works: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evolution
Full Definition of evolution 1 : one of a set of prescribed movements 2 a : a process of change in a certain direction : unfolding b : the action or an instance of forming and giving something off : emission c (1) : a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state : growth (2) : a process of gradual and relatively peaceful social, political, and economic advance d : something evolved 3 : the process of working out or developing 4 a : the historical development of a biological group (as a race or species) : phylogeny b : a theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations; also : the process described by this theory 5 : the extraction of a mathematical root 6 : a process in which the whole universe is a progression of interrelated phenomena
GaryGaulin
Well said Jerry!
If there is one truth and religion is a search for this truth (my understanding of what religion is about), then religion should not conflict with science. What sometimes is offered up as a conflict is bad science. This is not to say there is not bad religion too. Especially, if there is one truth.
Bad science leads to such things as childisly complaining about a standard flow chart showing how even an infant figures out how things work or happened. Or complaining about "naturalism" while Querius and others wrap themselves in it by using the word "natural" to infer a beyond investivation supernatural entity into the word "designed" by stating "The ID approach is to investigate natural processes as if they were designed". People with normal reasoning skills can eventually figure out that the ID movement misled each other so badly it's best to stay away from whatever it is that they're promoting. The expected conflict between science and religion is from the bad ID science. Others have no such problems, don't need ID's. With the "theory of intelligent design" being premised for "intelligent cause" it is very cognitive science related. Being taken seriously in that field requires a useful computer model that matches reality. In that case the "theory" is in the "how it works" and other documentation that goes with the code. The "theory of intelligent design" then exists, that's it. Writing a science paper becomes optional. It then says the same thing as the how it works that's included with the code. GaryGaulin
Jerry Coyne and Larry Moran have come out against the view that science is wedded to methodological naturalism Perhaps they are just being disingenuous. If you ask them why it works they'll probably appeal to the scientific method. Mung
Hi bill cole, Thank you for your comments. I believe the case for ID needs to be advanced on two levels: the scientific level and the meta-scientific level. On the scientific level, ID proponents can highlight the glaring inadequacies of unguided naturalistic hypotheses when attempting to account for the origin of life or of FCSI; on the meta-scientific level, ID proponents can argue convincingly that modern evolutionists' attempts to exclude Intelligent Design on methodological grounds reek of intellectual bias, and have nothing to do with good science. It is interesting that in the past couple of years, Jerry Coyne and Larry Moran have come out against the view that science is wedded to methodological naturalism. They now maintain that it's a sensible postulate, but only because it works. In a world where the evidence pointed the other way, it would be sensible to abandon it. Sean Carroll says the same thing. That's heartening. vjtorley
They assume the existence of an intelligence.
I meant to add this to my previous comment but the editing time ran out.
Denton assumes the existence of unknown forces that cause the phyla and novelties.
Denton theoretically has written out intelligence as the direct cause of novelties and the phyla and that there exist in nature something which causes certain combinations of homologs to appear. People like Coyne and Dawkins assume that somehow these homologs appeared through known processes but fortuitously over deep time. jerry
EVOLUTION is a PROCESS not a theory.
Yes this is nonsense. We should define the word "evolution." Lack of a common definition used by all here and elsewhere is one the problems with the debate. Evolution is an outcome (e.g. genetics definition of a change in allele frequencies over time) and as such the cause of these changes is of interest. The process that causes these changes is what is being debated. We know generally what causes trivial changes in the frequencies but the real debate is over massive changes to these frequencies especially when certain alleles go from zero frequency to wide spread frequency within gene pools. No one knows what causes these type of changes so we speculate. But that is all we have at the moment, speculation. Most of it disproven as a source of the changes. When that happens, one has to look for what is not disproven and possible. The argument used against ID is not that intelligence cannot produce the changes but that there never was an intelligence. ID argues that the most likely cause for the changes is intelligence, so this means we must consider the possibility that an intelligence existed to cause the changes. This is Meyer's approach in his doctoral dissertation and in his two books. It is what Darwin used to justify his approach, process at work currently in the world were at work in the depths of time. Nothing definite about an intelligence only that intelligence can cause the changes and there is nothing definite to rule out the existence of an intelligence. So both sides beg the question to support their beliefs. The believer in natural evolution assumes there was no intelligence so the causes must have been naturalistic. The believer in ID assumes there was an intelligence in the past. After all Richard Dawkins agrees with the premise that an intelligence is the best explanation. ID does not argue that natural processes could not have caused the changes, only extremely unlikely. And given this conclusion, one must search elsewhere. They assume the existence of an intelligence. jerry
This is also the form of religion that most often conflicts with science.
Is it? If there is one truth and religion is a search for this truth (my understanding of what religion is about), then religion should not conflict with science. What sometimes is offered up as a conflict is bad science. This is not to say there is not bad religion too. Especially, if there is one truth. A typical science project is made up of 4 parts: 1. Description of the problem and speculative hypothesis to solve the problem or explain it. Often based on predictions that should be true if the hypothesis is true. 2. Methodology to investiage the hypothesis or sometimes to explore the problem in more depth. 3. Results from the methodology 4. Conclusions or discussion about the results. Often this is very speculative but people expect this speculation and what happens is that this speculation is then treated as truth when in fact the wrong conclusions are often taken from the results for various reasons or that no conclusions are warranted. In terms of the evolution debate it is section 4 that is the source of nearly all the problems in reaching the truth about what explains the appearance of new life forms over time. If the religion is true, science will not conflict with it. But do not use speculative conclusions from science as the basis to refute a search for truth. Science is only one method for a rationale investigation, and definitely not the only method. jerry
GaryGaulin @ 41,
Then scientifically explain how “intelligent cause” works, like you are supposed to!
Wrong again. The ID approach is to investigate natural processes as if they were designed. ID makes no claims about the designer. It could be an advanced alien race. You know, among the billions and billions of stars.
EVOLUTION is a PROCESS not a theory.
Rubbish. A complete non sequitur. What's your definition of a theory, and what makes evolution not a theory? -Q Querius
GaryGaulin @ 24,
In my models I often change several variables at a time, just to see what happens.
Do you also mix a bunch of reagents just to see what happens? -Q Querius
Jw777: "The definition of “religion” used by Coyne and frankly most contemporary people is “superstitious untrue belief system I don’t believe in.” According to this definition, NO ONE believes in religion." From Faith versus Fact, pg 15, Kindle edition: "Defining “religion” is a thankless task, for no single definition will satisfy everyone. Belief in a god would seem mandatory , but some groups that look like religions, such as Jainism, Taoism, Confucianism, and Unitarian Universalism, don’t even have that. Other “religions,” like Tibetan Buddhism, may not worship gods, but do accept supernatural phenomena like karma and reincarnation. Rather than argue semantics, I’ll choose a definition that fits most people’s intuitive conceptions of religion, and certainly corresponds to the tenets of the three Abrahamic faiths— Judaism, Christianity, and Islam— that comprise about 54 percent of the world’s inhabitants . This is also the form of religion that most often conflicts with science. The definition is taken from the Oxford English Dictionary: Religion. Action or conduct indicating belief in, obedience to, and reverence for a god, gods, or similar superhuman power; the performance of religious rites or observances." Note that Feser ruthlessly criticizes Coyne for getting his definition from the OED. Apparently, sophisticated philosophers like himself have much better sources for definitions of esoteric words like "religion". MatSpirit
Virgil Cain: “Evolutionism claims to have a step-by-step process for producing biological systems like ATP synthase” MatSpirit: "Really? Who claims that. What’s his name? When and where did he say that and exactly what did he say? Did he just claim to have a step by step description of how ATP was created or did he claim a to have a step by step description of how every chemical in every species that has ever lived was created? That seems to be what ID demands of evolution." VC: "It started with Darwin and it has continued through today." So Darwin, who died in 1882, said that he had a step by step description of how ATP evolved when ATP wasn't even discovered until 1929? Uncanny! No, it's pretty clear that the problem is that, "...many ID stalwarts know so little about evolution that they confuse a general description of how evolution does its work (mutation, natural selection, drift, sexual selection, etc) with a step by step description of how every chemical in every species was created." MatSpirit
bill cole:
If evolutionary biology abandons the scientific method as a standard and uses inference as a standard then ID as it is currently described as evidence that more likely infers an intelligent cause is fair game.
Evolutionary biologists are not going to abandon the logical process by which even babies figure out how things work. For more information see comment #25 above. You should know that by now. bill cole:
Who the designer is does not need to be described. The debating trick has been to ask about the designer but the inference standard does not require this and therefor asking who is the designer amounts to creating a straw man.
Then scientifically explain how "intelligent cause" works, like you are supposed to! All the goalpost changing talk from the ID movement about an intelligent "designer" that is left up to the imagination of the reader to figure out is just getting you what you asked for. bill cole:
Methodological naturalism no longer matters. I personally prefer sticking to the scientific method but evolutionary biologists do not want this because evolution is not a legitimate theory under this standard.
EVOLUTION is a PROCESS not a theory. At this point maybe I and everyone else should just give-up on you, and instead use the legal system to shut down the misinformation mills that are just ripping people off by misrepresenting science and scientists. I can't take any more of this demeaning scam. GaryGaulin
Gary
Then you admitted that you are in fact one of the most strict believers in methodological naturalism of them all, and still only have a “supernatural” explanation that is still just as unconstitutional to teach in all US public school science classrooms due to your only having a personal religious belief that the premise of the theory of intelligent design is true.
I think you are missing the point. If evolutionary biology abandons the scientific method as a standard and uses inference as a standard then ID as it is currently described as evidence that more likely infers an intelligent cause is fair game. Who the designer is does not need to be described. The debating trick has been to ask about the designer but the inference standard does not require this and therefor asking who is the designer amounts to creating a straw man. The inference standard makes ID as it stands scientific. Methodological naturalism no longer matters. I personally prefer sticking to the scientific method but evolutionary biologists do not want this because evolution is not a legitimate theory under this standard. It becomes an untested hypothesis. bill cole
Tautology The definition of "religion" used by Coyne and frankly most contemporary people is "superstitious untrue belief system I don't believe in." According to this definition, NO ONE believes in religion. If we try to take the oft-alleged definition used by would-be dismantlers of religion, it's more like "beliefs, truths, codes or practices 'revealed' by a source of authority." Unfortunately, one's personal beliefs and personal view of science fits the bill here as well. So, I suspect, they really mean "revealed by a source which I do not personally view as authoritative." Again, according to this definition, NO ONE believes in religion. Then we have the original meaning of the Latin word, which has the rather banal everyday connotation of "what you do in your day." At best, these are your regular behaviors. According to this definition, EVERYONE is religious. There is no such thing as incompatibility between science and religion unless you set out to define them as incompatible. The subject at hand is really this: where does one draw the line for the possibility of a truth which cannot be tested immediately, repeatedly, falsifiably and empirically? We all disagree. Thus, one side is entitled to evolution of the gaps where it fails egregiously at anything remotely empirical, and the other side is entitled to infer intelligence where different forms of specified complexity, information, design and intellect appear. "Science and Religion are Irreconcilable" is not so much a serious philosophical statement as much as an attention grabbing headline. jw777
What is a “Darwinian genetic algorithm? Genetic algorithms are search heuristics and Darwinian evolution isn’t.
From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithm In the field of artificial intelligence, a genetic algorithm (GA) is a search heuristic that mimics the process of natural selection. I put "natural selection" in bold, so you don't miss the "evolution by natural selection" part. Also see the "selection" variable in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_algorithm Virgil:
And why does ID have to explain how intelligent causes work? ID is about the DESIGN.
Premise of the "theory of intelligent design": The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. Moving the goalposts to "DESIGN" was another switching of the topic away from the premise of the theory that is only being used as bait. GaryGaulin
bill cole:
They are admitting that modern evolutionary theory is not testable so under their new rules ID is a competing inference and belongs in the class room next to a natural explanation.
Then you admitted that you are in fact one of the most strict believers in methodological naturalism of them all, and still only have a "supernatural" explanation that is still just as unconstitutional to teach in all US public school science classrooms due to your only having a personal religious belief that the premise of the theory of intelligent design is true. Eliminating methodological naturalism from science takes away a crutch that has most served the ID movement. And you now need a computer model that operationally defines intelligence and explains how intelligent cause works or you will have proven to everyone to be part of a religious scam that runs on wishful thinking, not reality. GaryGaulin
Hi Gary Gaulin:
Darwinian genetic algorithms do not explain how intelligent cause works.
What is a "Darwinian genetic algorithm? Genetic algorithms are search heuristics and Darwinian evolution isn't. And why does ID have to explain how intelligent causes work? ID is about the DESIGN.
Surrendering to Darwinian based models
If genetic algorithms are based on Darwinian evolution then they are based on a cartoon version of it. Virgil Cain
VJT all I think everyone including me :-) is missing Dr Moran's point. He is saying that the scientific method and methodological naturalism are off table as far as he and Jerry Coyne are concerned. The question is this the position of a few scientists or main stream? If it is becoming main stream then the tactics of the ID group clearly need to change. They are admitting that modern evolutionary theory is not testable so under their new rules ID is a competing inference and belongs in the class room next to a natural explanation. A real positive case needs to be developed!!! Do not worry about describing the designer because that is a straw-man argument. The only requirement is showing evidence of design. bill cole
Virgil Cain:
Heck we have done all we can to explain how and why genetic algorithms are examples of evolution by intelligent design.
Darwinian genetic algorithms do not explain how intelligent cause works. Heck, you still can't explain how any intelligent entity works. Surrendering to Darwinian based models by embracing them was a foolish tactic, unless of course you were on purpose trying to achieve another humiliating defeat for the ID movement. GaryGaulin
Hi Gary Gaulin:
The ID movement is required to explain evolution by intelligent cause, as opposed to evolution by natural selection.
And several have done so. Heck we have done all we can to explain how and why genetic algorithms are examples of evolution by intelligent design.
It has been my experience developing a scientific theory is being avoided by throwing insults like “evos” at those who have good reasons to expect scientifically useful theory from the ID movement, to also scientifically explain how the process of “evolution” works.
Umm evoTARD is an insult. Evo is just short for evolutionist. And seeing they don't have a scientifically useful theory why do they expect one from anyone else? Virgil Cain
@Vincent Torley My apologies. I forgot that you had made a comment on my blog about not reading Coyne's latest book. It's a shame that you attacked his views without reading his latest book, especially since the book is directly relevant. Larry Moran
It has been my experience that evos know very little of the position they are pushing.
The ID movement is required to explain evolution by intelligent cause, as opposed to evolution by natural selection. It has been my experience developing a scientific theory is being avoided by throwing insults like "evos" at those who have good reasons to expect scientifically useful theory from the ID movement, to also scientifically explain how the process of "evolution" works. GaryGaulin
bill cole:
Evolution is taught in the science class room as Darwin’s theory of evolution.
Get it right please: How the process of Evolution works is taught in the science classroom by explaining Darwin’s theory of "evolution by natural selection". If you have no scientific theory of your own then there is no theory from you to teach, to any classroom. GaryGaulin
Gary Evolution is taught in the science class room as Darwin's theory of evolution. Theory implies that there is a working and testable mechanism. We know this is BS yet this takes up 10% of biology textbooks. If it is a process then it also should have a testable cause as all human processes do....humans :-) bill cole
MatSpeirit:
Really? Who claims that.
It started with Darwin and it has continued through today.
Or is it just that many ID stalwarts know so little about evolution that they confuse a general description of how evolution does its work (mutation, natural selection, drift, sexual selection, etc) with a step by step description of how every chemical in every species was created?
It has been my experience that evos know very little of the position they are pushing. They sure as heck cannot test the claims of their position. And they always hide behind the skirt of father time. It has also been my experience that evos do not know what is being debated. You seem to be in both boats. Virgil Cain
According to Dr Moran he also claims on his blog the methodological naturalism is no longer a rule of science.
Methodological naturalism is now only a rule for the ID movement.
At this point I believe all discussion of evolution as a theory needs to exit the science class room because it is not testable science as described by Dr Coyne.
The word "evolution" defines a process, not a theory to explain how the process works. GaryGaulin
VJT
I won’t further belabor the evidence, except to say that everyone, including Bishop, lives their lives based on the reliability of the scientific method. The ends justify the method. In contrast, religious “ways of knowing” don’t have that reliability: we don’t even know if God exists, much less what he’s like if he does. Different religions of the world all believe different things and have different tenets. If faith were as reliable as science, that wouldn’t be the case. Religious claims have no way of being checked, and that’s why science wins.
I appears that Dr Coyne has changed his views according to Dr Moran. According to Dr Moran he also claims on his blog the methodological naturalism is no longer a rule of science. The goal posts are moving rapidly. I am not sure how to understand this debate any more. My worst impression of this is people are using the tactic of moving the goal post and then accusing the people who did not get the memo of dishonesty. My interest in evolution was that the introduction of the genome as a sequence based on Yockey's 1977 paper made neo Darwinism a very poor description of life's diversity. Neutral theory did not solve this problem. I do not see ID as a replacement for Modern evolutionary theory because it is not a mechanism. I strongly believe that the scientific method should remain the standard of science as Coyne states in 2011. I have lots of confidence in it as Dr Moran would call a way of knowing. I do not have confidence in the inference standard especially if there are only 2 competing hypothesis. If we are having a philosophical debate then lets call a spade a spade and discuss the merits of design vs nature as a philosophical argument that includes untestable evidence. At this point I believe all discussion of evolution as a theory needs to exit the science class room because it is not testable science as described by Dr Coyne. bill cole
Here: Let Your Baby Test it Out http://www.pbs.org/parents/child-development/baby-and-toddler/let-your-baby-test-it-out/ Babies resemble tiny scientists more than you might think http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/babies-resemble-tiny-scientists-might-think/ Babies Are Born Scientists http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=125575 It's the same thing the Scientific Method illustration is showing. GaryGaulin
Querius:
For example, the logic of the scientific method requires changing only a single variable at a time.
Where? In my models I often change several variables at a time, just to see what happens. The chart at the top of the page is showing a very simple reasoning process that should not even be an issue. It's how a child learns from experience, how our brain normally figures out how things work or happen(ed). GaryGaulin
Virgil Cain: "Evolutionism claims to have a step-by-step process for producing biological systems like ATP synthase" Really? Who claims that. What's his name? When and where did he say that and exactly what did he say? Did he just claim to have a step by step description of how ATP was created or did he claim a to have a step by step description of how every chemical in every species that has ever lived was created? That seems to be what ID demands of evolution. Or is it just that many ID stalwarts know so little about evolution that they confuse a general description of how evolution does its work (mutation, natural selection, drift, sexual selection, etc) with a step by step description of how every chemical in every species was created? MatSpirit
I would make a distinction between the logic of the scientific method and the assumptions of the scientific method. For example, the logic of the scientific method requires changing only a single variable at a time. One violates that requirement at one's own peril. There's no "science" that asserts the converse. On the other hand, one of the assumptions of science is that the simplest explanation should be chosen (aka parsimony or Occam's razor). However, choosing a more elegant explanation on the basis of analogy could be argued as superior to a formulaically simpler one. Weren't we all warned at some point that linear extrapolation in science will most certainly fail? Of course, that happens to be exactly Darwin's error. -Q Querius
vjtorley:
As I argued in my OP, the Abrahamic religions are eminently falsifiable:
Yes, so with all said and done arguing over falsifiability leads nowhere. It's best to not bother with it, just stick to the science basics of hypotheses testing and development of theories to explain how things work or happened using a model of some kind. GaryGaulin
MattSpirit, you are confused. Evolutionism claims to have a step-by-step process for producing biological systems like ATP synthase. Yet when pressed all evos go into convulsions. ID does not make such a claim and because of that does not have to support it. We base the design inference wrt ATP synthase on the fact that no one can test the claim tat stochastic process can produce it coupled with the fact it meets the definition of specification.
For instance, suppose I challenged you to tell me exactly how ID says ATP came to be.
That would be exposing you as ignorant wrt science and design-centric inferences. FIRST we determine design exists and then we study it to try to answer those other questions. Virgil Cain
Hi Professor Moran, Thank you for your comment. You write, "I'm pretty sure you've read Jerry Coyne’s book Faith vs. Fact." That's very odd, because I explicitly stated in a comment on your blog site on January 26: "No, I haven't read the book, as I couldn't afford to order it..." (That remains the case; I can only afford to order one or two books a year from Amazon.) You must have read that comment of mine, because you replied: "I will not comment on anything you say until you read the book." You also quote Coyne as saying in his book, Faith vs. Fact, that "scientists and philosophers now agree that there is no scientific method" (p.32). That's news to me, as Coyne has not, as far as I am aware, previously stated that on his Website, and a Google search on the phrase "there is no scientific method" came up with no links to Coyne's Website, either. In fact, Coyne has previously written as if he believed in "the scientific method." Here, for instance, is what Coyne says in a 2011 post, in response to a critical review of Why Evolution Is True by Professor Robert Bishop (bolding below is mine - VJT):
I won’t further belabor the evidence, except to say that everyone, including Bishop, lives their lives based on the reliability of the scientific method. The ends justify the method. In contrast, religious “ways of knowing” don’t have that reliability: we don’t even know if God exists, much less what he’s like if he does. Different religions of the world all believe different things and have different tenets. If faith were as reliable as science, that wouldn’t be the case. Religious claims have no way of being checked, and that’s why science wins.
See? Professor Coyne uses the singular to refer to the scientific method. In another post, he writes that smallpox was cured "by scientific methods" (plural) but in the same paragraph, he also writes: "we justify science rather than faith as a way of finding out stuff not on the basis of first principles, but on the basis of which method actually gives us reliable information about the universe." There's the singular again. My guess is that Coyne may have had some last-minute advice from a philosopher of science, before publishing his latest book, Faith vs. Fact. Hence the inclusion of the qualifying statement that there is no single scientific method. But if Coyne thinks that's the case, then that makes his recent assertion that "there's only one brand of science" all the more troubling. If science is not unified by its subject matter, nor by its methodology, then in what meaningful sense can we say that there's only one brand of science? You attempt to resurrect Coyne's statement by pointing to several features which (according to Coyne) can be said to characterize science: "falsifiability" ["for a theory of fact to be seen as correct, there must be a ways of showing it to be wrong"], “doubt and criticality” (= skepticism), “replication and quality control” (don’t accept facts until they’ve been independently confirmed), “parsimony” (as a general rule a simple explanation is preferable to an overly complex one), and “living with uncertainty” (saying “I don’t know” is preferable to making up fantastic stories). But as I pointed out in my July 2015 post, Faith vs. Fact: Jerry Coyne’s flawed epistemology (which was written not as a book review but as "a critical analysis of the arguments Coyne advances in his book, and which he has defended elsewhere"), Coyne has expressly stated that replicability is not an essential part of science, and that scientific claims do not need to be replicable. Historical hypotheses cannot be replicated; however, Coyne holds that if they make predictions that can be tested, then they qualify as real science. So we are left with falsifiability, predictions, doubt, parsimony and uncertainty as the defining criteria of science. The problem is that religion exhibits many of these criteria as well, suggesting that the difference between the two is one of degree, rather than kind. As I argued in my OP, the Abrahamic religions are eminently falsifiable: even the demythologizing scholar Rudolph Bultmann admitted that Christianity hinges on what he called "das Dass" (the fact that Jesus was a real historical individual who proclaimed the coming of God's kingdom). And while I can (just) imagine a Judaism without Moses, it's impossible to imagine the Jewish faith without the character of Ezra. Proof that Ezra, Jesus and Muhammad were fictional characters would destroy all three faiths. The Abrahamic faiths also make predictions about the future: Judaism and Christianity say that the Messiah will return in glory, and Christianity and Islam say that the coming of Jesus will usher in the Last Judgement. According to all three faiths, human beings will be around to witness these incidents, so the empirical prediction being made here is that the human race will not die out as a result of some catastrophe, whether man-made or natural. Doubt or skepticism plays a vital part in Judaism: in an article titled, From Belief to Faith, Rabbi Daniel Gordis writes that "the Torah goes to great lengths to reassure the searching Jew that skepticism is healthy, legitimate, and even cele­brated in Jewish life." The Bible itself tells us: “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1). Deuteronomy 18:22 states: "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken." Parsimony is also part-and-parcel of the Abrahamic faiths: what else do you think motivates their insistence that there is only one God? Belief in one God is simpler and makes a lot more sense than belief in many gods. And let us not forget that William of Occam (after whom Occam's razor is named) was a Franciscan friar. St. Thomas Aquinas himself wrote that "it is superfluous to suppose that what can be accounted for by a few principles has been produced by many." (Of course, the principle known as Occam's razor pre-dates Occam: it goes back to Pythagoras.) What about uncertainty? Consider the Catholic faith, which is commonly said to be the most dogmatic faith of them all. Allow me to quote from George Bernard Shaw, in his Preface to St. Joan: "Compared with our infallible democracies, our infallible medical councils, or infallible astronomers, our infallible judges, our infallible parliaments, the Pope is on his knees in the dust confessing his ignorance before the throne of God, asking only that as to certain historical matters on which he has clearly more sources of information open to him than anyone else his decision shall be taken as final." To this day, Catholics are free to choose between a vast panoply of beliefs, when it comes to the origin of living things: Young Earth creationism (which still has a few Catholic adherents), Old Earth creationism, Intelligent Design and currently accepted theories of evolution (Darwinism or the neutral theory) - the only restrictions being that all Catholics must acknowledge that God created the universe and maintains it (and its laws) in being, that the human soul is a spiritual creation, and that the Fall was a real historical event which affects all of us, to this day. The fact is that the Church gives its members far more intellectual freedom than modern science does. (It's also worth noting that Mike Behe and Ken Miller are both Catholics, as is Dr. Maciej Giertych, a professor of genetics with a Ph.D. from Toronto who is also a young-earth creationist.) By the way: I am indeed aware that Coyne would personally agree with much of what I wrote on falsifiability being an important part of science. Nowhere did I suggest otherwise. My aim, however, was to point out that this criterion is incapable of serving to distinguish science from religion. You write that it is incumbent on critics of scientism to put forward "a different way of knowing that actually discovers true knowledge." I agree. I'd like to propose two such methods. Metaphysics is one such way of knowing. As I wrote in my 2015 review of the arguments in Coyne's book, Faith vs. Fact, "there are certain truths which we can know, given the mere fact that we live in a world where science is possible." Science is built upon a bedrock of metaphysics. For instance, the existence of causality is a presupposition of there being any kind of science at all. The same goes for the statement that there are things (or entities, or substances) of some sort, which fall into fairly well-defined categories ("essences") which are characterized by certain distinguishing properties. As I showed in my post, Professor Coyne himself endorses a kind of biological essentialism, although he would add that these essences (or species) gradually change, over the course of geological time. In my post, I also argued in defense of intuition as a way of knowing: in everyday life, we arrive at certitude about facts - both general and particular - long before we have had a chance to confirm them scientifically. Such certitude is, I argued, justifiable, notwithstanding the fact that some of our intuitions occasionally turn out to be wrong. It would be a fallacy to argue that because an alleged source of knowledge is fallible, it is therefore incapable of yielding knowledge. Science is fallible, but no-one doubts that it yields genuine knowledge. If you think that science can proceed without metaphysics, or that ordinary people can live their lives without relying on intuition, then I'd like to hear why. vjtorley
Mung: "There is a review online of Coyne’s book which makes him look like an utter idiot when it comes to his claims about his definition of science and religion. linked from here Have you read it? 'Biologist Jerry Coyne has managed to write what might be the worst book yet published in the New Atheist genre.' Ouch." I agree. Feser (rhymes with phasor) really made himself look bad there, but he does that all the time. He's sort of an 'insult philosopher', but he insults things he doesn't understand and they keep blowing up on him. For instance, in his review, he says, "The book flies off the rails before it reaches page one. In an unintentionally comic passage in his preface, Coyne explains what he has in mind by 'religion.'". Then he lists a bunch of things Coyne says that Fesor says are self contradictory and claims Coyne's idea of religion is Bible Belt fundamentalism. Then you read that section in the actual book and Coyne is just giving a good summary of the wide range of world religious beliefs and describing which parts of which beliefs have scientific problems. Feser gets offended because, "The theology of Thomas Aquinas, Hindu nationalism, the cargo cults of Melanesia, Scientology—all of these and more are casually lumped together as examples of religion..." But they ARE all examples of religion! In the blog post you cite, he quotes Plantina as saying, "Naturalism entails that we cannot know whether any of our beliefs are true.” and then goes on, "The reason is that neither their truth nor their falsity would be relevant to the behavior associated with them, and it is the behavior alone which (Plantinga argues) natural selection can mold." I can hardly believe that Plantinga and Fesor actually believe that. It would imply that a mouse that believes, "Cats are friendly to mice" is going to behave the same way as a mouse that believes "Cats kill and eat mice" and that natural selection can't influence which belief gets passed on. MatSpirit
Forgot to add: And if they can come up with ways of testing those theories, and they pass the tests, they may join the ranks of established theories. MatSpirit
Johnnyb: "Under the qualities you list, does string theory count as science? Why or why not?" Sure, it counts as theoretical science where theorists try to come up with theories that explain the observations, are self consistent and compatible with all or most established theories. MatSpirit
Virgil Cain: "By any definition of science evolutionism isn’t science. That is because its claims cannot be tested. For example both Coyne and Moran will choke on or ignore the following question: How can we test the claim that ATP synthase arose via natural selection, drift and/ or neutral construction?" . Mike 1962: "ATP synthase arose via random variation and natural selection How can this be verified? How can this be falsified?" . How would you go about testing this hypothesis? We observe that every living organism uses ATP so we believe it evolved very early, but the only way I can think of to find the exact path it took would be to have lots and lots of samples from the period it evolved in, but we don't. Considering that we'd be looking for samples of organic molecules preserved intact from circa four billion years ago, we probably never will. Darwinian evolution implies that everything we observed today evolved from previous ancestors. Everything we have observed so far supports that hypothesis, but we will probably never have the fossil molecules to trace out all the exact paths. YEC and ID creationists like to demand detailed descriptions of how every single thing on earth evolved, secure in the knowledge that science can't supply that information. Yet ID/YEC can't answer that question either. For instance, suppose I challenged you to tell me exactly how ID says ATP came to be. If you think an Intelligent Designer is responsible, describe the stages it happened in. Did all the organisms get ATP at once? Tell us when and where it happened. Did the Designer give some of the organisms ATP before others got it? Show us the fossils that prove it happend that way. Did God/The Designer give life intermediate forms of ATP before settling on the modern molecules? Show us the fossils. Suppose i told you that if ID can't provide such information, it's falsified. You would think that was very unfair because no evidence exists for either side to tell exactly how ATP came to exist. Yet you think that if evolution can't answer the question, it's falsified. It's like insisting for a hundred years that Relativity was wrong because it predicts gravitational waves exist and no Physicist had ever observed them. MatSpirit
In answer to Larry moran's ideas on what science is. Yes in these days SCIENCE has lost credibility as a specific methodology. Yes WAY OF KNOWING is fine but it really means KNOWING is established. That is science os about proving things by a high standard of investigation. People see the standard and then say the conclusions are scientific. The quality of our DRUGS etc meets this standard. Medical drugs abilities are proven from scientific standards of investigation. So it is a methodology relative to other methodology's. it must be or its just regular investigation. its not regular but special. So science is a high standard of investigation that can DEMAND confidence in its conclusions. The critic can take on the conclusions only by a equal high standard of investigation or by denying a high standard was applied to the conclusion. I say in evolution its the latter but many say its the former. Here everybody is in the ring. Coyne's idea of science is confusing and wordy and not plain simple. Science to be something must be something special. IT is about proving things. Its fine with the list of proofs. BUT prove relative to the great claims. At this point in intellectual history science definition should not be a mystery. Its not. Its just people figuring things out and proving it by excellent proofs. Biological hypothesis must be proved by biology or they fail to be science. Biology is not fossils, comparative genetics/anatomy or comparing anything. Its not biogeography, or ecology, . It must be about actual processes in the hand. Biology is done with sticky fingers in goo. Not with pickaxes and dynamite. Evolution is not a biological scientific hypothesis. Thats why its not persuasive and why its persuasive to those persuaded. Science is real and not a complicated subject to comprehend. By the way KNOWING would include someone telling you WHO is in the know. So Gods bible is one of those knowing ways unless its dosmissed out of hand. Robert Byers
Hi Larry, I appreciate it when you take time to post here at UD. There is a review online of Coyne's book which makes him look like an utter idiot when it comes to his claims about his definition of science and religion. linked from here Have you read it? Biologist Jerry Coyne has managed to write what might be the worst book yet published in the New Atheist genre. Ouch. Mung
Larry Moran - Under the qualities you list, does string theory count as science? Why or why not? johnnyb
This is a classic example of formulating an idea you can test, a hypothesis:
ATP synthase arose via random variation and natural selection
A well designed experiment tests the hypothesis to be either "true" or "false". Uncertainty can indicate a better experiment is needed. The word "falsified" is in my opinion scientifically useless, needs to go. GaryGaulin
ATP synthase arose via random variation and natural selection How can this be verified? How can this be falsified? mike1962
By any definition of science evolutionism isn't science. That is because its claims cannot be tested. For example both Coyne and Moran will choke on or ignore the following question: How can we test the claim that ATP synthase arose via natural selection, drift and/ or neutral construction? And larry, all YOU do is misrepresent your opponents in an attempt to score some cheap points. You are one pathetic hypocrite Virgil Cain
Vincent, I know for a fact that you have been following the debate on the compatibility of science and religion and I'm pretty sure you've read Jerry Coyne's book Faith vs. Fact. You should be familiar with his position on the definition of science—which happens to be mine as well. Coyne uses the broad definition of science as a way of knowing. It is not restricted to scientists. He has made this very clear in his books, on his blog, and in his popular writings. Coyne does not believe in a single scientific method. He makes this very clear in Faith vs. Fact on page 32: "But scientists and philosophers now agree that there is no scientific method." He has made the same point repeatedly over the past decade. Coyne describes a number of "important features that distinguish science from pseudoscience, from religion, and from what are euphemistically called 'other ways of knowing.'" Here, he's talking about the activities of scientists but later on he will explain that these features also apply to everyone else who seeks truth and knowledge. One of the features is falsifiability. He says (page 33),
Although philosophers of science argue about its importance, scientists by and large adhere to the criterion of 'falsifiability' as an essential way of finding truth. What this means is that for a theory of fact to bee seen as correct, there must be a ways of showing it to be wrong, and those ways must have been tried and failed.
Vincent, you know very well that Coyne would agree with just about everything you said about the limitations of falsifiability as a strict requirement of science as a way of knowing. You know that, but you misrepresented his position anyway. Why did you do that? According to Coyne, the other "features" that characterize the science way of knowing are: "doubt and criticality" (= skepticism), "replication and quality control" (don't accept facts until they've been independently confirmed), "parsimony" (as a general rule a simple explanation is preferable to an overly complex one), and "living with uncertainty" (saying "I don't know" is preferable to making up fantastic stories). He points out that when you apply these features to the search for truth you are doing "science," broadly speaking. When there are millions of people all around the world who do this then the strength of the consensus conclusions is reinforced by surviving repeated attempts to refute them by very critical scientists. Many of them come from very different backgrounds and cultures and this helps to negate and dampen any cultural and religious biases. Such biases are inherent in any human activity but the practice of science as a way of knowing is set up in a way that tries to counter these biases. Coyne describes this as "collectivity" (page 38). I'm pretty sure that you and your creationist friends don't agree with this description of science as a way of knowing because you don't like the "truth" that this way of knowing produces. That's fine. You can present your case for a different way of knowing that actually discovers true knowledge. (Good luck with that attempt.) What you can't do is misrepresent your opponent's point of view in order to score some cheap shots at a strawman. Larry Moran
We know that science "works" only due to certain metaphysical assumptions; without those underpinnings, science, like all means of inquiry, would fall apart at the seams. OldArmy94
There are many "experimental methods" used to gather various types of "experimental data". In all cases the purpose of the experimental methods are for an ongoing process by which the "scientific method" is used to answer questions people have, by developing scientific theories to explain how something works or happened. There actually is child simple logic to all this. But strict following of the tenets of Methodological Naturalism led the ID movement to religious philosophy where the scientific method is corrupted by invoking "supernatural" entities in a way that avoids having to scientifically develop their own scientific theory. GaryGaulin
Again one must insist that there is no conflict between religion and science but ONLY between conclusions. Modern creationism contends for its conclusions using science or we think we do. Except for some YEC conclusions from genesis etc most of creationism takes on bad guys international on the EVIDENCE OF NATURE using scientific methodology. Whats this Coyne's beef? If genesis says something then it might be hard to prove it by mans investigation BUT it should be easy to debunk any alternative view that is against genesis. Why is there so much uncertainty about what science is?? Its dumb. Science is just proving things by proven rules. Relative to the claim the proof must be shown. In criminal cases its proof without doubt and in civil cases its weighing the proof. Its degrees of proof. Science was a concept to raise the standard of proof before conclusions were established. Simple idea. Science does not innovate or imagine or get the credit. People do those. Science IS a methodology of proof reading. Evolutionism fails because the methodology is cheated. they don't make conclusions about biology on biology proof. Instead its fossils, comparative anatomy/genetics, and other foreign things. Newton and Einstein proved their stuff. Darwin and clan do not. They speculate and then conclude they did science. Why is evolution true book by Coyne is case in point of why evolution is not science. Just watch it on youtube. No bio sci is introdiced as proof.. ZIPPO! Or prove me wrong!! ID folks screw this up too. Robert Byers
"Carroll contended that if string theory and the theory of the multiverse are able to unify physics and account for our observations, then it makes perfect sense for scientists to accept these theories, even though we have no way of falsifying them:" Of course, one thing that sets such unfalsifiable theories apart from falsifiable ones is that they are useless in any practical application, since they cannot be used to generate risky predictions. It requires a theory that is capable of making risky predictions in order to differentiate sense from nonsense in the real, useful world. If physicists are successful in "accounting for" physics with nonfalsifiable theories of the multiverse and strings, then fine, they can have it. But it will be a useless curiosity and nobody except a relatively few egg heads will give a crap about it. mike1962
Science needs to be democratized. The ancient Greeks used to have multiple competing schools of thoughts and it was up to the public to choose which ones they like. But today we have a dictatorship of the one true state religion of atheism and materialism. Mussolini, Stalin, Pol Pot and Kim Jong-un come to mind. A revolution is in order. Mapou
“there’s only one brand of science, with most scientists agreeing on what’s true” It is simply not the case that there is only one brand of science. Mung
Thanks vjtorley for your very apt intervention against Coyne's naive scientism. I would add only that religions are many, but the major orthodox traditions share at their inner esoteric center the same metaphysics. They differ only at the peripheral level, on minor details that depend on race, country, history, habits... of very different people. It is so because, despite of the many names used to refer to it (God, Brahma, Tao, Allah, En Sof...) the metaphysical unlimited Principle is necessarily one. In fact, if it were not unique it couldn't be unlimited. Consequently, as a traditional dictum says, "The doctrine of Unity is unique". The supporters of scientism like Coyne believe that modern science has the monopoly of all truths. In reality the knowledge this science gives us is infinitesimal when compared to the metaphysical Knowledge related to the above doctrine, which by the way overarches all possible sciences. Finally, to Coyne I would remember another dictum, which is useful to us all to be prepared before we die, "All sciences abandon man at his death, only the science of Unity accompanies him". niwrad

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