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“It’s Emergent!” and “It’s Magical!” Have Equivalent Scientific Explanatory Power for Consciousness

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Bruce Buff and Robert J. Spitzer write:

But when it comes to the mind, this idea [i.e., emergence] has its issues. First, all scientifically observed emergence is actually unanticipated behavior resulting from known physical properties, and not new properties that exceed what physics can explain. Some materialists suggest that consciousness might emerge from physical processes on the quantum level, but any emergence there would be disrupted by anything that has an effect on quantum physics — such as holding up a cell phone to your head or getting an MRI. Simply put, emergence depends on properties that already exist in the system’s constituent parts. It doesn’t matter how many Legos are assembled in incredibly complex arrangements, they will never generate a nuclear reaction. Just as radioactivity cannot emerge from the plastic used in the blocks, consciousness does not emerge from the physical parts of the brain.

Precisely.  Think about all of the usual examples of emergence:  hurricanes, schools of fish or flocks of birds acting in unison, the wetness of water.  Now think about what makes all of these examples absolutely irrelevant to discussions of consciousness.  In the former, as Buff and Spitzer observe, known physical properties act in unexpected ways.  For example, the atmosphere acts in unexpected ways to form a hurricane.  Yes, it is extremely complex, but we can see how, in principle, the strong winds, lowered barometric pressure, etc. can be reduced to physical causes.

Not so with mental activity.  While no one denies there is some connection between a person’s mental state and his brain, it is nevertheless absurd to suggest that subjective-self-awareness, intentionality, qualia and other features of consciousness can be reduced to the electro-chemical reactions in the brain.  “Mental” and “Physical” are self-evidently in different ontological categories.

It follows that a claim that the mental is somehow an emergent property of the physical is a non-starter as any sort of explanation.  It is, as has often been observed, a confession of profound ignorance masquerading as an explanation.  It is, nevertheless, a sufficient “explanation” for the already-convinced true believers of materialism.  Those of us of a more skeptical bent see a distinct lack of threads on that kingly body.

Comments
This is what Dr. Hameroff-world expert in consciousness study, whose predictions (with R. Penrose) regarding quantum coherence in microtubules of the neurons in the brain have been recently verified by experiments--said about AI and its potential ability to match operations per second in the brain: Alex Tsakiris: Your understanding of the quantum mechanics of the neuron really stirs up a lot of angst among the AI singularity crowd. Tell us a little bit about that controversy. Dr. Stuart Hameroff:To look at our brain as 100 billion simple switches — to look at a neuron as a switch or gate — it’s an insult to neurons. It’s just not that simple. If you study biology you realize this. But a lot of biologists get bogged down with the details and lose the big picture. They see the information processing in the cell as a minestrone soup of chemicals when they’re ignoring the solid state system in the microtubules. The bit with the AI and the singularity, there’s actually a couple of points of friction here. As I said, I spent 20 years studying microtubule information processing. The AI approach would be, roughly speaking, that a neuron fires or it doesn’t. It’s roughly comparable to a bit, 1 or 0. It’s more complicated than that but roughly speaking. I was saying no, each neuron has roughly 10-8 tubulins switching at roughly 10-7 per second, getting 10-15 operations per second per neuron. If you multiply that by the number of neurons you get 10 to the 26th operations per second per brain. AI is looking at neurons firing or not firing, 1,000 per second, 1,000 synapses. Something like the 10 to the 15th operations per second per brain… and that’s without even bringing in the quantum business. So that alone was pushing the goalpost way, way downstream into the future. http://skeptiko.com/stuart-hameroff-on-quantum-consciousness-and-singularity/J-Mac
November 11, 2017
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@UB
There was an irrational atheist like yourself there, doing as you do, saying anything at all in order to avoid real-world empirical evidence
For the umteenth time, I’m not avoiding real-world emperical evidence. I’m heading out of town to celebrate my anniversary. But I’ll leave you with these questions which makes first my criticism clear. I’ll follow up on the second point when in a day or so. Q: Despite the fact that that each of them suggest something completely different is happening, in reality, real-wold empirical evidence of a rocket launch into space is compatible with both Newton’s Laws of motion and General Relativlity. True or false? Q: Someone criticizing Newton’s laws of motion would need to avoid real-world emperical evidence of rocket launches into space. True or false?critical rationalist
November 11, 2017
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Genes wouldn't be expressed.Mung
November 10, 2017
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"gene expression would be in trouble if suddenly all the stop codons and termination sequences went away." Just curious, what do you think would happen to gene expression if this were to occur?Corey Delvine
November 9, 2017
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Your response at #124 reminds me a bit of a conversation I had a couple of years ago in a different forum. There was an irrational atheist like yourself there, doing as you do, saying anything at all in order to avoid real-world empirical evidence. The subject of stop codons came up and I think I made an off-handed remark that gene expression would be in trouble if suddenly all the stop codons and termination sequences went away. He argued that this was not the case at all. His reasoning, incredibly, was that alternate stop sequences were known to exist. There is simply a point where there is no reason to continue. In order to deal with questions #2 and #3, (after about 9 months of avoiding the issue) you managed to produced a paper, and you say:
I pointed out that the entire complement of AARS are not actually present in all organisms in comments #101. How can that be? Because there are other biological means of performing that function. And those means are thought to play other roles in the cell. I even quoted from the paper. Darwinism is part of the universal theory that knowledge grows via variation and criticism of some form. The function didn’t start out with that particular purpose in mind. It came about though a number of steps with intermediate functionality. And I provided examples of that in a quote from the referenced paper.
So for this counter-argument of yours to have any relevance whatsoever to the discussion, you must believe that at the origin of life there were functioning cells, with proteins being synthesized and doing organized work, transcription mechanisms, genes to be transcribed into paralogs, energy being produced in usable forms, etc. It should be no wonder why your answers are not taken seriously. As for questions #1 and #4 you unsurprisingly rely on your prior dissembling about constructor theory -- which doesn’t even mention the key issues involved, other than the requirement that a medium of information “be possible”. This is also the theory that claims for an information medium to exist, it must be rate-independent – which is patently false, as most informational mediums are not rate-independent at all. Lastly, your answer for question #5 is a final embarrassment; where your attempt to skirt the issue is so blatant and transparent it doesn't even warrant a response.Upright BiPed
November 9, 2017
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CR, I am just now getting home to see your post. I'm not going to respond tonight. I'll respond sometime tomorrow.Upright BiPed
November 8, 2017
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CR @
Origenes: By the same token, a conceptual explanation is asked from the concept emergence WRT consciousness.
CR: Huh? The concept of an explanation isn’t the same as a concerete explanation, either.
That's not what I wrote. ........ I know that a conceptual explanation is not a concrete explanation, that's why I wrote that a conceptual explanation is required.Origenes
November 8, 2017
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Arguing a straw man. Nowhere did I say that actual feet can wear the concept ‘footwear’.
A type of footwear isn’t the concept of footwear either. Let’s swich analogies. Can you read a genre of books? No, you cannot. Nor can you read the concept of books. Right? This is not to say that either are completely and absolutely useless. They are different things. Anyone who said they read a genre of books and said it had a bad plot was making a category error. It’s not even wrong. You can only read a concrete example of a specific genre of books. For example, you can read a copy of Consider Phlebas, which is a science fiction novel. (And a very good one at that.)
By the same token, a conceptual explanation is asked from the concept emergence WRT consciousness
Huh? The concept of an explanation isn’t the same as a concerete explanation, either. You could say that we can have explanations about how we develop explanatory theories. That would be a theory of how knowelge grows, which is far from irrelevant. See this video which is about this very subject. However, if anyone confused a kind of explanation with an explanation for explanations, that would be a category error as well.
So, at this point, emergence fails as a conceptual explanation of consciousness.
That’s not even wrong. It’s like trying to compare oranges and apples, then jumping up and down, waving your hands about how insightful or how meaningful it is than an apple fails to be an orange. It’s absurd.critical rationalist
November 8, 2017
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CR: You cannot wear a kind of footwear any more than you can eat a kind of ice cream. You can only eat concrete examples of a flavor of ice cream. Boots, as a kind of footwear, cannot keep anyone’s foot warm.
Arguing a straw man. Nowhere did I say that actual feet can wear the concept ‘footwear’. What I said was, instead, that ‘footwear’, as a concept, offers a conceptual explanation as to why feet remain warm while being in a cold environment. When we contemplate the concept ‘footwear’ we come to understand that the influence of a cold environment on feet is not necessarily unrestrained. By the same token, a conceptual explanation is asked from the concept emergence WRT consciousness. So, emergence, as a concept, should, for one thing, conceptually explain the control that consciousness has over thoughts and actions. That would not be a problem, if there are concrete examples of emergent properties, which reach down towards the physical layer on which they sit and start rearranging things. But that is neither what ‘footwear’ does, nor what ‘universality of computation’ does. So, at this point, emergence fails as a conceptual explanation of consciousness.Origenes
November 8, 2017
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@Barry, Of course, you haven't come out and said that Barry. Rather, you've implied it. Why didn't your OP come out, right from the start, claiming it's a category error and be done with it? Why on earth has this thread gone on when I keep pointing out that emergence isn't a concrete explanation for anything, let alone consciousness? Because that doesn't suite your agenda. Again, where are these supposed "materialists" that supposedly confuse "emergence" the category of explanation, with emergence as some kind of "magic". Even if you somehow managed to produced some, their confusion doesn't some how make the entire enterprise of emergent explanations somehow illegitimate.critical rationalist
November 8, 2017
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CR:
[The OP] tries to argue that if some yet to be disclosed people misuse the concept of emergence, then there can be no correct usage of the term to describe existing concrete examples of emergent explanations.
Really? You know, don't you, that the OP is right up there? And anyone can go check it out, and even a cursory glance will show that you are lying about what the OP says. Do you have no shame?Barry Arrington
November 8, 2017
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I would point out this entire issue is yet another motivation for constructor theory. By moving from initial conditions and laws of motion to possible and impossible tasks, this unifies reductionist and emergent explanations. Neither of which are more fundamental. From this paper...
2.16 Emergent and scale-independent laws Almost all physical processes involving large numbers of elementary particles are intractably complex. But for a tiny but important minority, that complexity resolves itself into simplicity at a higher level – a phenomenon known as emergence. Specifically, certain sets of collective phenomena can be explained in terms of emergent laws relating them only to each other, without reference to the underlying particles and laws. Some forms of emergence are unproblematic under the prevailing conception because their laws follow logically from low-level laws, either as well-defined approximations (such as the gas laws) or exactly (such as the law of motion of a centre of mass). But in some cases an exact emergent law appears to exist, yet not to follow from lower-level laws. The principle of testability and the second law of thermodynamics are examples. These do conflict with the prevailing conception. It could be that they are exactly true at all scales but that, as with the laws of chemistry, that is only manifest if they are expressed in constructor-theoretic terms – the former as a principle of constructor theory and the latter within a subsidiary theory, thermodynamics, in a constructor-theoretic formulation.
critical rationalist
November 8, 2017
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@Eric
We have been discussing concrete examples. His ongoing assertion that there is some kind of category error between the class and the specific examples doesn’t make any sense. It is irrational to say that “emergence” is unhelpful as a class of explanations, but helpful as a concrete explanation.
You're still confused. See #125 above. Not being helpful as a concrete explanation doesn't mean it's not helpful at all as a means of describing kinds of explanations, setting expectations as to what an emergent explanation would consist of and the implications of it. The inability to use "emergent explanations in one context doesn't mean there are no legitimate uses in another.critical rationalist
November 8, 2017
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@Origines
You seem to think that ‘footwear’ is too abstract to be an explanation. You are simply wrong. Footwear can explain many things, for instance why feet remain warm while being in a cold environment.
You cannot wear a kind of footwear any more than you can eat a kind of ice cream. You can only eat concrete examples of a flavor of ice cream. Boots, as a kind of footwear, cannot keep anyone's foot warm.
Now you are starting to make some sense. Of course the concept is an attempt of an explanation. Can we drop the nonsense?
That's what I've been asking. Why on earth would the inability to wear a kind of footwear mean there are no concrete examples of footwear. That's nonsense.
Okay. Well, unfortunately for your position that is not working. It does not explain consciousness conceptually, nor is it non-reductionistic — see #2, #59 and #68.
Again, the entire argument in the OP commits the fallacy of equitation. It tries to argue that if some yet to be disclosed people misuse the concept of emergence, then there can be no correct usage of the term to describe existing concrete examples of emergent explanations, and that the entire enterprise of emergent explanations is somehow illegitimate. if Barry tried this is a court of law, does he really think this sort of think would fly?critical rationalist
November 8, 2017
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You refuse to truly engage any of a series of questions and observations that shed light on your original claim (that Darwinian evolution is the source of the genetic translation system).
As I asked Barry, if I have not “truly engaged” with your questions, then what would actually engaging them look like? Again, it’s as if you’re trying to defend Newton’s Laws of Motion by pointing out we can use it to launch rockets into space. Of course we can. That observation is not in doubt. However, does that somehow mean that Newton’s laws have not been superseded by GR? Of course not. We know that Newton’s laws are an approximation that doesn’t scale. Note your only response to this is that the analogy I made was an analogy, in that you didn’t write the quote. Of course you didn’t. That’s what an analogy is! This is opposed to arguing that the analogy was not valid, which you did not do. How is this truly engaging my criticism?
Question #3? We know that aminoacyl synthetases are the finite set of complex proteins that establish the genetic code. Their tasks in the cell is to perform a double-recognition and bind a particular amino acid to a particular tRNA adapter prior to the act of translation. We can all conceive of their significance to the system. They are synthesized from nucleic memory, and it stands to reason that there was once a time in earth’s history that none of the set of aaRS had ever been synthesized from that memory. Here is my question: Regardless of what anyone thinks preceded that time, at the point in earth’s history that the first ever aaRS was successfully synthesized from memory, how many of the other aaRS had to be in place?
Again, I pointed out that the entire complement of AARS are not actually present in all organisms in comments #101. How can that be? Because there are other biological means of performing that function. And those means are thought to play other roles in the cell. I even quoted from the paper. Darwinism is part of the universal theory that knowledge grows via variation and criticism of some form. The function didn’t start out with that particular purpose in mind. It came about though a number of steps with intermediate functionality. And I provided examples of that in a quote from the referenced paper. And what has been your response? To ask the question again, claiming I haven’t addressed it. If that wasn’t truly engaging the question, what else do you expect? Another example? From question #2
We know that aminoacyl synthetases are the finite set of complex proteins that establish the genetic code. Their tasks in the cell is to perform a double-recognition and bind a particular amino acid to a particular tRNA adapter prior to the act of translation. […] How many objects does it take to specify something from a medium of information?
From the paper from the same comment…
The absence of an AARS-encoding gene from a genome is possible because it does not necessarily correlate with the absence of the corresponding essential biochemical function. For example, the absence of glutaminyl-tRNA synthetase (GlnRS) is rescued by a non-discriminating glutamyl-tRNA synthetase (ND-GluRS) that can mis-acylate Glu to a tRNAGln, which is then modified to Gln-tRNAGln by a tRNA-dependent amidotransferase (3). Enzymatic modification of a mischarged aminoacyl-tRNA (aa-tRNA) is documented for Asn, Gln, Cys, selenocysteine and formylmethionine (4–8). Therefore, cataloguing all those cases where classical AARS genes are missing is a necessary first step in identifying known alternative pathways that enable cognate charging of the tRNA species for which the cognate AARS is missing. Genetic code decoding is a much more variable step than originally thought and needs to be quantified (9).
IOW, there are alternate paths in translation that do not require AARS. Nor do all paths take the same number of steps with the same number of objects. Yet, somehow, the genome still represents a storage medium. So, it turns out, not only does your “theory of information” not scale to quantum storage mediums, but id doesn’t scale to biological storage mediums, either. How does this not reflect “engage any of a series of questions and observations”? As for question #1 and #4 I’ve pointed out this is addressed at length in the constructors theory of life. The quick summary is that, when expressed in constructor theoretic terms, we can define what it means for something to have the appearance of design. And when I say “exact” I mean a way scales across organisms, DNA, flash drives, etc. as opposed to something inexact and vague, like FSCI. And we can model evolution as approximate constructors at different levels and phases, including the phase before there was high-fidelity replication. This kind of unification is another example of the motivation for constructor theory. IOW, the paper indicates not only indicates which tasks are necessary for accurate replication, but what tasks are necessary for accurate replication to arise from raw materials only and the absence of design of organisms (and the transition system) already being present in the laws of physics. I don’t have time to do an entire breakdown of the quoted section at this point. Nor is it clear why it’s somehow necessary. Apparently, I have to spoon feed it to you?
Question #5 If a researcher uses quantum memory to store a simulation for, say a cure for cancer, he or she will (depending on the system) use various techniques to set the superposition state of the medium (i.e. the nuclei of a particular atom, for instance), thus encoding the qubits of memory. Is the state of a qubit of memory a cure for cancer, or is it about a cure for cancer, and thus, has to be interpreted?
?Perhaps we are finally getting somewhere? You’ve changed your tune from asking exactly how many objects are physically necessary to store information in a medium to asking if people who intentionally encode information in a quantum storage medium have intentionally encoded information in a quantum storage medium. I think the answer to that would be yes, as it is a tautology. So, maybe not. Is your entire argument that there are abstractions in nature, so it must have been designed? Is that really it?critical rationalist
November 8, 2017
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CR @ 120: Help me understand this. In your analogy, a "kind of footwear" symbolizes what with respect to the emergence of consciousness?Truth Will Set You Free
November 7, 2017
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CR: I’m not following you. Are you suggesting that a class or kind of footwear would only relivant if it can be worn on your feet? That doesn’t make senes either.
You seem to think that ‘footwear’ is too abstract to be an explanation. You are simply wrong. Footwear can explain many things, for instance why feet remain warm while being in a cold environment.
CR: If it “explains” anything, it would be how it’s possible to have an explantion which is not at the level of atoms, yet doesn’t require an appeal to the supernatural.
Now you are starting to make some sense. Of course the concept is an attempt of an explanation. Can we drop the nonsense?
CR: It explains how we could have an explanation for consciounsness, without it being reductonist in nature.
Okay. Well, unfortunately for your position that is not working. It does not explain consciousness conceptually, nor is it non-reductionistic — see #2, #59 and #68.Origenes
November 7, 2017
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CR "We have many thoeries of consciounsness, but we’re just getting started." Oh great. CR winds up the discussion by issuing yet another materialist promissory note.Barry Arrington
November 7, 2017
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@Origenes I'm not following you. Are you suggesting that a class or kind of footwear would only relivant if it can be worn on your feet? That doesn't make senes either. If it "explains" anything, it would be how it's possible to have an explantion which is not at the level of atoms, yet doesn't require an appeal to the supernatural. It explains how we could have an explanation for consciounsness, without it being reductonist in nature. This is not to be confused with representing an actual, current day explantion for consciounsness. We have many thoeries of consciounsness, but we're just getting started. Rather, it explains how we could have such an explantion.critical rationalist
November 7, 2017
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EA @ 118: Great points. From what I can tell, CR's "emergence" is indistinguishable from magic.Truth Will Set You Free
November 7, 2017
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All, let's circle back to the apparent source of the misunderstanding: critical rationalist @27:
To clarify, emergence is a level, class or category of explanation, not a specific concrete explanarion, such as the theory of computation, which is a emergent explanation for the universality of computation. As such, it’s unclear how emergence could be “magic” in that sense. The universality of computation is not “magic”, yet is is an unexpected result of a specific repertoire of computations. It meets the criteria of an emergent explanation.
Let's see. If emergence is a class of explanations, then there must be examples of emergence that would fall into this "class or category". One alleged example was discussed in the OP, namely the idea of the emergence of consciousness from physical properties and physical processes. CR gave another alleged example: the "universality of computation". There are two fundamental problems with CR's approach above: 1. We have been discussing concrete examples. His ongoing assertion that there is some kind of category error between the class and the specific examples doesn't make any sense. It is irrational to say that "emergence" is unhelpful as a class of explanations, but helpful as a concrete explanation. This is very confused. I can certainly say that "Bob drives a car", and that could be useful information, even if I don't give the concrete make, model, and year of the car. The issue in this whole situation is not whether we are referring to a class or a specific member of the class. The issue is that the concept of "emergence" as an explanatory attempt to explain the origin of something is useless. It doesn't make any difference whether we are talking about specific examples or the whole class. CR seems to have mistakenly latched onto what he perceives as some kind of category error, all the while missing the more fundamental point. 2. In none of the cases we have been discussing -- consciousness or the universality of computation, for example -- has the word "emergence" provided one iota of useful information. It has brought nothing to the table. Saying that it "emerged" doesn't help us understand how it emerged or what physical characteristics caused it to emerge or even whether it did emerge. Contrary to CR's claim, the fact that universality of computation resulsts from a specific repertoire of computations does not mean we have an "emergent explanation". Putting that label on the results doesn't explain anything. Thus, the OP is exactly correct to suggest that emergence really functions as "a confession of profound ignorance masquerading as an explanation." ----- As with so much in materialist thought, the explanations sound good as long as they remain vague and general. As soon as we start to ask about the details, the "explanation" crumbles. As I have often noted with evolutionary theory generally, the same principle can be applied to emergence: The perception of the explanatory power of emergence is inversely proportional to the specificity of the discussion.Eric Anderson
November 7, 2017
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critical rationalist @108:
Of course [referring to something as emergent] cannot be helpful because it’s not a concrete explanation.
Hang on. So you agree that referring to something as emergent is not helpful? Excellent. Why didn't you just agree with Barry and move on?
You can’t wear a kind of footware. You can only wear concerete examples of footware, like an actual pair of slippers.
Well, you offered a concrete example of emergence in the universality of computation. Yet you haven't provided any reason to think that calling your concrete example "emergence" is helpful in understanding the origin of a universal Turing machine either. In fact, the only thing that "emergence" label has done is obscure the details of how it was actually invented. So you agree that emergence isn't helpful as a general explanation. And you've provided us ample witness that it isn't helpful as a concrete explanation either. Again, you've inadvertently demonstrated the whole point of the OP.Eric Anderson
November 7, 2017
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My criticisms of you are not vague at all: you don’t answer criticisms, you dissemble and distract instead. You refuse to truly engage any of a series of questions and observations that shed light on your original claim (that Darwinian evolution is the source of the genetic translation system). Would you like to hear the questions again?
Question #1 Darwinian evolution requires the genetic translation system in order to be able to specify objects among alternatives and place those specifications in a heritable memory. If A requires B for A to exist, then A cannot be the source of B. Right?
. . .
Question #2 In order to organize a heterogeneous living cell, there must first be the capacity to specify an object, and encode that specification in a heritable medium of information. I assume we agree on that premise. Nature is entirely unambiguous about how this is accomplished. For each object to be specified, the system uses one arrangement of matter to serve as a representation within the medium, and a second arrangement of matter as a constraint to establish what is being specified. These two objects are well documented inside the cell; the codon in DNA and the aaRS in the translation machinery. How many objects does it take to specify something from a medium of information?
. . .
Question #3 We know that aminoacyl synthetases are the finite set of complex proteins that establish the genetic code. Their tasks in the cell is to perform a double-recognition and bind a particular amino acid to a particular tRNA adapter prior to the act of translation. We can all conceive of their significance to the system. They are synthesized from nucleic memory, and it stands to reason that there was once a time in earth’s history that none of the set of aaRS had ever been synthesized from that memory. Here is my question: Regardless of what anyone thinks preceded that time, at the point in earth’s history that the first ever aaRS was successfully synthesized from memory, how many of the other aaRS had to be in place?
You have run again and again from actually addressing these questions. Would you like to try a different one?
Question #4 Semiosis enables the capacity to specify objects from among alternatives, and place those objects under the control of heritable memory. Materialists want to remove semiosis from OoL research because the documented organizational requirements are too complex to come about by themselves. Instead, they see an origin of simple chemical ensembles in a continuum of unknown function, somehow resulting in the semiotic system we find today. Did the ensemble that preceded semiosis have to specify the semiotic system?
Or, here’s another you are sure to enjoy:
Question #5 When you avoid the genetic information system by dissembling about quantum information, you say “I am referring to quantum storage mediums”. Okay. If a researcher uses quantum memory to store a simulation for, say a cure for cancer, he or she will (depending on the system) use various techniques to set the superposition state of the medium (i.e. the nuclei of a particular atom, for instance), thus encoding the qubits of memory. Is the state of a qubit of memory a cure for cancer, or is it about a cure for cancer, and thus, has to be interpreted?
Let the anti-intellectual dissembling continue … I know you can’t stop. Facts don’t matter.Upright BiPed
November 7, 2017
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@Barry
And that would sting if I were the one running away from the questions Eric and UB raised. But I’m not. You are.
No, I wouldn't. Because there is no specific criticism present there. For example, I were the one running away from the questions Eric and UB raised, then I would have said something just like that. But I didn't. I responded with arguments. Again, where is the argument that the criticisms I've made are not relevant? UB asked about the necessary of AARS in translation. I pointed out that the entire complement of AARS are not actually present in all organisms. How can that be? Because there are other biological means of performing that function. And those means also play other roles. And UB's response? He merely claimed I haven't answered the question. If that's the case, then what would answering the question look like? What does he expect?critical rationalist
November 7, 2017
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CR @
CR: Of course if cannot be helpful because it’s not a concrete explanation.
Let's suppose that emergence is not a concrete explanation, however, in order to be relevant, emergence should be some kind of explanation. So, what kind of explanation is emergence?
CR: Of course, emergence isn’t an explantion, that’s a category error.
So, emergence is not an explanation for consciousness at all? Neither concrete nor abstract nor otherwise. Does it have anything to do with consciousness? If not, why are we discussing it?Origenes
November 7, 2017
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Apparently, you don’t have any good critism either.
Troll on, CR! Troll on! or Keep on Trollin' or A Trollin' given is a Trollin' earned. Andrewasauber
November 7, 2017
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Apparently, you don’t have any good critism either. But I like jello.Mung
November 7, 2017
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CR
I could just as well respond with . . .
And that would sting if I were the one running away from the questions Eric and UB raised. But I'm not. You are.Barry Arrington
November 7, 2017
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@Barry
CR is like a lot of materialists. They mistake the ability to type for the ability to make a cogent argument.
Apparently, you don’t have any good critism either. I could just as well respond with. “ID proponents mistake the ablity to publish a blog with the ablity to make a cogent argument.” But that has no critical substance leveled against any particular aspect of an specific argument. If your response to an argument in court was “Opposing councel has mistaken the ablity to speak for the ablity to make a cogent argument.” and left it at that, do you think that would fly? Of course, not. So, why do you think it would fly here either? Do you think so little of your audience?critical rationalist
November 7, 2017
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UB: Still, no answer to either question.
Yet even more vague criticism. Why isn’t it an answer? Because it’s not relivant? And why isn’t it relivant? because it’s not an answer? Because you personally don’t find it interesting? I would again point out that you still haven't denied or argued that the analogy of defending Newton’s laws of motion isn’t accurate. Rather all you’ve done is complained that you didn’t say what I quoted. Which isn’t saying much because it wouldn’t be an analogy if I quoted you exactly.critical rationalist
November 7, 2017
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