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“It’s Emergent!” and “It’s Magical!” Have Equivalent Scientific Explanatory Power for Consciousness

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Bruce Buff and Robert J. Spitzer write:

But when it comes to the mind, this idea [i.e., emergence] has its issues. First, all scientifically observed emergence is actually unanticipated behavior resulting from known physical properties, and not new properties that exceed what physics can explain. Some materialists suggest that consciousness might emerge from physical processes on the quantum level, but any emergence there would be disrupted by anything that has an effect on quantum physics — such as holding up a cell phone to your head or getting an MRI. Simply put, emergence depends on properties that already exist in the system’s constituent parts. It doesn’t matter how many Legos are assembled in incredibly complex arrangements, they will never generate a nuclear reaction. Just as radioactivity cannot emerge from the plastic used in the blocks, consciousness does not emerge from the physical parts of the brain.

Precisely.  Think about all of the usual examples of emergence:  hurricanes, schools of fish or flocks of birds acting in unison, the wetness of water.  Now think about what makes all of these examples absolutely irrelevant to discussions of consciousness.  In the former, as Buff and Spitzer observe, known physical properties act in unexpected ways.  For example, the atmosphere acts in unexpected ways to form a hurricane.  Yes, it is extremely complex, but we can see how, in principle, the strong winds, lowered barometric pressure, etc. can be reduced to physical causes.

Not so with mental activity.  While no one denies there is some connection between a person’s mental state and his brain, it is nevertheless absurd to suggest that subjective-self-awareness, intentionality, qualia and other features of consciousness can be reduced to the electro-chemical reactions in the brain.  “Mental” and “Physical” are self-evidently in different ontological categories.

It follows that a claim that the mental is somehow an emergent property of the physical is a non-starter as any sort of explanation.  It is, as has often been observed, a confession of profound ignorance masquerading as an explanation.  It is, nevertheless, a sufficient “explanation” for the already-convinced true believers of materialism.  Those of us of a more skeptical bent see a distinct lack of threads on that kingly body.

Comments
@origines
Unfortunately for your position, a supernatural realm is required: the realm of specified functional information. According to our uniform experience, specified functional information arises from an intelligent source.
There is no non-physical information, just as there are no nonphysical computers. So, no, this isn't part of our uniform experience. Furthermore, does the medical research community not consist of conscious, intelligent. agents? Have they not chosen to cure cancer? Are their actions and arrangements of matter not made with the intent to cure cancer? Are they not supposedly free in the sense that they are independent of physical laws? IOW, if what you're saying is true, then why don't we have a cure for cancer by now? Or to rephrase, why are the arrangements of some free, intelligent agents actually successful while the arrangements of other free intelligent agents are not? What's the difference?critical rationalist
November 4, 2017
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Origenes, "Information on its own is inert. It does not make decisions. It is not a person. So, how can conscious be “nothing more than information?” This is exactly my point against ba77, who believes that quantum information can continue on after death as a quantum soul. I argue exactly what you just did. Quantum Info that can't be destroyed needs a quantum processor; neurons with micro-tubule quantum entanglement processes in the human brain... Further, I see no coherency in quantum effects, so that it can serve as an explanation for a unified rational mind. But your opinion doesn't make the laws of QM wrong, does it?J-Mac
November 4, 2017
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@EA See this video : https://youtu.be/PmZhFY3r_g8critical rationalist
November 4, 2017
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J-Mac: If consciousness is quantum, as it appears to be, then “the emergence” of consciousness would be the rearrangement of sub-particles which boils down to quantum information… The question is; are most of us ready to accept that consciousness is nothing more than information?
Information on its own is inert. It does not make decisions. It is not a person. So, how can conscious be "nothing more than information?" Further, I see no coherency in quantum effects, so that it can serve as an explanation for a unified rational mind.Origenes
November 4, 2017
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@60 Further to my comment @60: "Under general anesthesia everything works fine in human body with one exception: the processing of quantum information…" in microtubules of neurons. It is unknown whether other possible quantum processes in the brain are affected by anesthetic gases... I hope it is clearer now...J-Mac
November 4, 2017
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critical rationalist: You've made numerous references to this universality of computation and how it is an example of emergence that is meaningful and real. Can you help us understand your point just a little bit better: 1. Can you define universality of computation and give a concrete example of it arising? 2. Does it arise from the physical characteristics of the system, or from the immaterial informational concepts programmed into the system? 3. Do you have any other examples of emergence like this, other than the universality of computation? 4. Finally, is the "emergence" of universality of computation just a descriptive observation of the result (without knowing the cause), or is "emergence" in this case referring to some kind of concrete, known cause?Eric Anderson
November 3, 2017
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ET @58: Thanks. Fair points.Eric Anderson
November 3, 2017
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CR: Again, there are no nonmaterial computers, yet the explanation for the universality of computation is not present in atoms or any reductionist sense. Nor does it require some supernatural realm.
Unfortunately for your position, a supernatural realm is required: the realm of specified functional information. According to our uniform experience, specified functional information arises from an intelligent source.Origenes
November 3, 2017
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Materialists need to learn that “it does not convince me” is not equivalent to “it does not exist.” Otherwise, they will continue to sound stupid when they say things like “there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of God” or “there is no explanation for consciousness.”
We do not have an explanation for consciousness that is emergent. Better? And we, as in those of us who think emergent explanations are possible and that universality of computation is one of them. Furthermore, when we discard all bad explanations, which are easily varied, we are left with none. This very specific criticism isn't specific to the "supernatural" or God. See #22.
CR, “non-reductionist materialist explanation” is an oxymoron. All materialist explanations are, by definition, reductionist — they reduce to material causes. It is astounding that you don’t appear to be able to grasp this rather basic and obvious point.
This is the false dichotomy you are perpetuating. The emergent explanation for the universality of computation is one such criticism of that claim. Again, there are no nonmaterial computers, yet the explanation for the universality of computation is not present in atoms or any reductionist sense. Nor does it require some supernatural realm. Again, who are these materialists? Where are quotes to back up your claims? Surely, you realize this sort of thing wouldn't fly in your "day job", so why would you expect it to fly here?critical rationalist
November 3, 2017
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CR:
We don’t have an explanation for consoiuness. And we may never will.
That is false. Materialists need to learn that "it does not convince me" is not equivalent to "it does not exist." Otherwise, they will continue to sound stupid when they say things like "there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of God" or "there is no explanation for consciousness."
But the claim that there is this dichotomy by which any such explanation must be either reductionist in nature or “supernatural” doesn’t withstand criticism.
CR, "non-reductionist materialist explanation" is an oxymoron. All materialist explanations are, by definition, reductionist -- they reduce to material causes. It is astounding that you don't appear to be able to grasp this rather basic and obvious point. It follows that if materialists cannot provide a reductionist explanation of consciousness, they will not be able to provide any explanation at all.Barry Arrington
November 3, 2017
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CR @ Consciousness is in control of thoughts and actions. That is one of the remarkable capabilities of consciousness; it is a prerequisite for rationality.
CR: Can you wear a kind of footwear? No, you cannot. You can only wear a concrete example of a specific kind of footwear.
Is the concept "footwear" in control of the concrete examples of footwear from which it emerges? I would say not, therefore this emergence of the concept footwear is not relevant to consciousness. IOWs it does not even begin explaining the control consciousness has.
CR: One such examples we can point to is the universality of computation. There are no non-material computers. Yet the universality of computation is no were found in the atoms that it is constructed from.
Whatever. What matters is that the concept "the universality of computation", as an emergent property, does not control, does not "reach down" in any way in the direction of, the physical level on which it sits. So .... it is neither relevant nor explanatory WRT consciousness.Origenes
November 3, 2017
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CR @ 64: You state: "Can you wear a kind of footwear? No, you cannot. You can only wear a concrete example of a specific kind of footwear. But this in and of itself does not mean there are no kinds of footware, and that we cannot have concerete examples of those kinds that we can point to, which people are actually wearing." I get that you are trying to distinguish the IDEA of a thing from the MATERIAL thing itself; the conceptual from the tangible, but I don't understand how that defeats design arguments. A specific shoe model arises first as an idea/concept in someone's mind. We cannot wear the idea/concept for it is not yet materialized as a tangible object to fit of feet. So what? How does that defeat design arguments?Truth Will Set You Free
November 3, 2017
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critical rationalist is lost
Yes. He's the same old materialist stuck in a ditch. Andrewasauber
November 3, 2017
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critical rationalist is lost. The point is just saying "emergence" is foolish. You have to know something about how it emerged in order for "emergence" to be an explanation.ET
November 3, 2017
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@origenes
What matters is that emergence is not an explanation, not a concrete explanation and not any other kind of explanation.
Can you wear a kind of footwear? No, you cannot. You can only wear a concrete example of a specific kind of footwear. But this in and of itself does not mean there are no kinds of footware, and that we cannot have concerete examples of those kinds that we can point to, which people are actually wearing. The claim that a specific kind of footwear is impossible can be met with the criticism of an example of someone actually wearing that kind of footwear. Right? Boots are impossible? Well, someone is wearing a pair right there! In the same sense, can a *kind* of explanation actually be an explanation? No, not in the sense you are implying. You can only explain things with concrete explations. But this in and of itself does not mean there are no kinds of explanations, including those at the level of emergence, and that we cannot have concrete examples of those kinds we can point to. One such examples we can point to is the universality of computation. There are no non-material computers. Yet the universality of computation is no were found in the atoms that it is constructed from. “[Emergence] is not any other kind of explanation”? But the explanation for the universality of computation is right there, and it’s emergent! So, the first part of your statement does not imply the second part of your statement is true.critical rationalist
November 3, 2017
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CR: And I said continually said the very idea of emergence as a concrete explanation would represent a category error ...
Whatever. What matters is that emergence is not an explanation, not a concrete explanation and not any other kind of explanation.Origenes
November 3, 2017
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@BA
CR: And I said continually said the very idea of emergence as a concrete explanation would represent a category error that Barry keeps perpetuating, as if he does not understand the concept, despite having been presented multiple clarifications and examples.
What am I talking about?
BA: BTW: “It emerged” is not an answer. It is a non-answer, which which you appear to be content.
Yet, I keep objecting on the ground that you’re making a category error, which you yourself keep perpetuating, so it’s unclear how I’m content with it We don’t have an explanation for consoiuness. And we may never will. But the claim that there is this dichotomy by which any such explantion must be either reductionist in nature or “supernatural” doesn’t withstand criticism. One such criticism of that dichotomy is the universality of computation. There are no non-physical computers. Yet the explantion for that universality is not found anywhere in atoms, quarks, etc. Nor is that universality like atoms or quarks, either. And it represents a jump to universality that is disproptional to the physical change. Of course, this will change nothing as, apparently, the only response you have is to continue to perpetuating the same category error, as if that somehow addresses this criticism.critical rationalist
November 3, 2017
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@UDE
UD Editors: We never said anything about God. We said that “emergence” as an explanation for consciousness does not explain anything.
And I said continually said the very idea of emergence as a concrete explanation would represent a category error that Barry keeps perpetuating, as if he does not understand the concept, despite having been presented multiple clarifications and examples. One such example is the universality of computation, which Barry omitted and apparently objects to for some reason I still cannot understand. Barry’s extremely vague claim of some of supposed mistaken use by some unknown number of yet to be identied or quoted “materialists” doesn’t negate the fact that we have concrete examples of emergent properties of matter. Where are these “materialists”? Where are the relivant quotes? Just as we do not think our emergent explation of the universality of computation is “magic”, nor would we consider a future emergent explantion for consciousness “magic” either, or any more impossible. Again, there are no non-physical computers, yet the explanation for that universality is not found at the level of atoms. Nor does it require the existence of some non-material sea that surrounds some material bubble. So, what gives? Any such future explanation for consciousness would be in the same class and level. Just as what was a future explanton for the universality of computation. Nor are we somehow guaranteed to develop such an explantion. But perpetuating this absurd category error is, well, disegneous at best, or represents significant ignorance on what emergent phenomena is.critical rationalist
November 3, 2017
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If consciousness is quantum, as it appears to be, then "the emergence" of consciousness would be the rearrangement of sub-particles which boils down to quantum information... The question is; are most of us ready to accept that consciousness is nothing more than information? Under general anesthesia everything works fine in human body with one exception: the processing of quantum information...J-Mac
November 3, 2017
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CR: … it’s not clear that a AGI at a human level would necessary need to be conscious in the sense that we are.
I can clear that up for you. AGI “at a human level” would mean that an agent is in control of his thoughts and actions. Maybe this time you can answer my question: What/who would be the agent that is in control in the context of “AGI at a human level?” And on what basis does this agent make decisions?
CR: As for free will, it seems like you’re starting from the idea that divine revelation tells us we will be eternally greatly rewarded or horribly punished based on our choices.
Balderdash. The subject is emergence and its explanatory power. I am extremely skeptical and, for starters, I would like to know who the agent is and how an emergent property controls the physical layer on which it sits.Origenes
November 2, 2017
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Eric, I was just trying to explain what "emergence" means. And yes we agree that just saying it is meaningless unless it can be backed up with evidence. As far as "instinct" goes, where ID is concerned I would think "instinct" is actually the organisms' BIOS.ET
November 2, 2017
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The best evidence for consciousness comes from everyday anesthesiology used in surgical procedures... Gases used to put patients to sleep totally disable their consciousness... Interestingly, while patients' under anesthetic are totally unconscious, their brain functions are normal with the exception that the patients are not aware of anything at all, don't dream and can't remember anything at all after surgery... It turns out that gases used in anesthetics disable microtubles in neurons where quantum vibrations have been identified by several experiments...These findings provide evidence that consciousness could be quantum. Quantum consciousness functioning via quantum entanglement would also explain why people who are missing the majority of their brains, as much as up 75%, are functioning fine, being fully conscious and having normal life experiences as people who have full brains...J-Mac
November 2, 2017
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ET, I'm sure we must be talking past each other a bit. If your point is that we don't understand instinct very well, I agree. If your point is even that there are lots of other things in nature that we don't understand very well, I agree. Such things are a dime a dozen. I am focused on the causal connection, which is precisely the issue on the table. I don't mind if someone wants to use the word "emerge" to refer to the mere observation that x occurred. Fine. But when they attempt to explain what happened by saying that it emerged, they are just talking in circles and not providing any real explanation. ----- If you are noting that we don't have a good understanding of what causes instinctual behavior, then I'm happy to agree. And let us then take careful note that if someone were to come along and try to explain the instinctual behavior by saying that it emerged, it would not be a valid explanation. :)Eric Anderson
November 2, 2017
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Eric:
Instinct is describing a particular property.
What property is that?ET
November 2, 2017
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CR @ 50: What exactly is emergence, and how does it defeat design arguments?Truth Will Set You Free
November 2, 2017
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CR: I don't have any more time for your antics. Here is the bottom line: Explain how consciousness can be reduced to nothing more than the electro-chemical reactions in the brain -- i.e., tell us how, in principle, the mental is caused by the physical -- and I will admit defeat. BTW: "It emerged" is not an answer. It is a non-answer, which which you appear to be content.Barry Arrington
November 2, 2017
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ET: Couple of things:
A house is an intended property, it doesn’t just emerge.
Fair enough. So you would agree with me that the iPhone example CR cited from the Stanford presentation is nonsense.
Yes, Eric, water is an emergent property, as is salt from NaCl.
And how do we know that? Because we understand the chemistry behind these reactions. Now, hang on to that point for a moment while we consider the following:
That is also the case with the word “instinct”- it functions as a little more than a placeholder for ignorance.
Not quite. Instinct is describing a particular property. In our example of water, it would be equivalent to observing something like "wetness." It is true that we can use words (like "instinct") to describe things that are not well understood. It is also true that the word "emerge" is a perfectly legitimate word in the English language that can be used appropriately in many situations. This isn't the problem. The problem is when the word emergence is used as an answer to how something came about or as a causal explanation. The only reason you know that water "emerges" from H and O is because you know that H and O will react to produce water. If you didn't know the underlying cause, it would be illegitimate to claim that water emerges from them. You might suspect it. You might not know of another explanation. But you wouldn't be able to say that H + O, on their own, produce water. (Further, as I've already mentioned, calling the process "emergence" doesn't add anything to our knowledge or understanding. It is completely superfluous. If people want to run around using superfluous terminology, fine. But they shouldn't expect anyone else to take them seriously.) Worse, when emergence itself is put forth as though it were a process or a cause, it is simply false. That is the problem with how the word is so often used, particularly in debates about evolution and consciousness. Consider the following examples: "A light emerged in the darkness." or "A wolf emerged from the forest." These are perfectly legitimate uses of the word "emerge". In each case they tell us that something appeared that was not previously there - that we observed something new. Yet these statements are not attempting to be a causal explanation. No-one is claiming that the darkness somehow produced the light, or that the forest trees somehow produced the wolf." So when we ask the question How?, it is a causal inquiry, and references to emergence are unhelpful, at best, and more often, misleading. If someone is claiming that a living organism emerged from the primordial soup or that consciousness emerged from electrical impulses between neurons, they are offering a causal explanation. And the idea of emergence doesn't work in that capacity. It fails, both practically and logically.Eric Anderson
November 2, 2017
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There are no non-material computers
CR, This is just an assertion. Computers (common term) store symbols meaningful to humans (bits and bytes). The computation comes from the human mind. The computer takes translated input and just rearranges data for output, based on written/coded human instruction. Andrewasauber
November 2, 2017
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@EA You still seem to be confused. Whether an explanation is a emergent or not has nothing to do with the object or outcome being designed. For example, Babbage stumbled upon the universality of computation while trying to automate the ability to enter data and reconfigure his second computer, the Analytical engine. Even then, he couldn’t convince enough people to actually fund its development. It was only when Turing rediscovered it trying to solve a different problem that we had a good grasp on the implications. If someone is surprised by an a outcome of their actions, does that mean they intentionally designed that outcome? Rather, emergence is a type or class of explanation.critical rationalist
November 2, 2017
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Yes, Eric, water is an emergent property, as is salt from NaCl. A house is an intended property, it doesn't just emerge.
Emergence functions as little more than a placeholder for ignorance.
In the case of consciousness, I agree. (That is also the case with the word "instinct"- it functions as a little more than a placeholder for ignorance.)ET
November 2, 2017
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