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“It’s Emergent!” and “It’s Magical!” Have Equivalent Scientific Explanatory Power for Consciousness

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Bruce Buff and Robert J. Spitzer write:

But when it comes to the mind, this idea [i.e., emergence] has its issues. First, all scientifically observed emergence is actually unanticipated behavior resulting from known physical properties, and not new properties that exceed what physics can explain. Some materialists suggest that consciousness might emerge from physical processes on the quantum level, but any emergence there would be disrupted by anything that has an effect on quantum physics — such as holding up a cell phone to your head or getting an MRI. Simply put, emergence depends on properties that already exist in the system’s constituent parts. It doesn’t matter how many Legos are assembled in incredibly complex arrangements, they will never generate a nuclear reaction. Just as radioactivity cannot emerge from the plastic used in the blocks, consciousness does not emerge from the physical parts of the brain.

Precisely.  Think about all of the usual examples of emergence:  hurricanes, schools of fish or flocks of birds acting in unison, the wetness of water.  Now think about what makes all of these examples absolutely irrelevant to discussions of consciousness.  In the former, as Buff and Spitzer observe, known physical properties act in unexpected ways.  For example, the atmosphere acts in unexpected ways to form a hurricane.  Yes, it is extremely complex, but we can see how, in principle, the strong winds, lowered barometric pressure, etc. can be reduced to physical causes.

Not so with mental activity.  While no one denies there is some connection between a person’s mental state and his brain, it is nevertheless absurd to suggest that subjective-self-awareness, intentionality, qualia and other features of consciousness can be reduced to the electro-chemical reactions in the brain.  “Mental” and “Physical” are self-evidently in different ontological categories.

It follows that a claim that the mental is somehow an emergent property of the physical is a non-starter as any sort of explanation.  It is, as has often been observed, a confession of profound ignorance masquerading as an explanation.  It is, nevertheless, a sufficient “explanation” for the already-convinced true believers of materialism.  Those of us of a more skeptical bent see a distinct lack of threads on that kingly body.

Comments
@BA
BA: Precisely CR. We are demanding that materialists provide a reductionist explanation for consciousness or admit that they cannot. After all, the whole basis of materialism is the assertion that every single effect in the universe can be reduced to a physical cause.
Again, Huh? UD Editors: We are sorry you don't understand that. We would try to make it simpler but, frankly, don't know how.
CR: There are no non-material computers. So, you cannot have the universality of computation without a physical system. But the explanation for universality of computation is not present at a reductionist level. It is independent of atoms, transistors, vacuum tubes or cogs. That’s what it means for something to be an emergent property. Yet, it is not “magic”.
And ...
CR: [The universality of computation] is a concrete example of a leap to universality, which comes from a single, disproportional change in a physical system. And, as far as we know, it doesn’t require an kind of supernatural intervention when that disproportional physical change is made. (Well, I guess you could just as well claim that God makes computers universal when they are constructed, just as people claim God endows people consciousness when they are constructed from raw materials.)
Is there something about the above that you do not understand? Are you saying that God endows computers with the universality of computation when they are constructed, because the explanation for that universality is emergent? What gives? UD Editors: We never said anything about God. We said that "emergence" as an explanation for consciousness does not explain anything. So far, you have wanted to talk about everything under the sun, including God, rather than address the argument of the OP. OK. Your avoidance of the argument is answer enough. You've got nothing. Why don't you just admit that, and we can move on? Again, this seems to be an example of presenting a false view of a theory you find objectionable, then pointing it is false or making unreasonable demands. This is par for the course.critical rationalist
November 2, 2017
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ET, I think we're largely on the same page. If you'll permit me just a couple of follow-up observations:
Materialists think that consciousness emerges out of the interactions of neurons that form the brain.
Well, they think it emerges out of something, somehow. But the details are so non-existent that it is impossible to tell what is being proposed. As soon as emergence is proposed, we can ask a very simple follow-up question: How? At that point the whole idea breaks down. ----- The definition you cited is probably about as good as we are going to get. But it suffers from a couple of serious problems: 1. "the larger entities exhibit properties the smaller/simpler entities do not exhibit" - this is so broad to as to almost encompass every phenomenon in existence. H combines with O and produces water. Water certainly exhibits properties that H and O don't exhibit individually. So, what, now we should call water an "emergent phenomenon"? Sand is laid down over time and compressed to form sandstone. Now sandstone is an emergent phenomenon? I build a house from materials. The house certainly has properties that the materials themselves don't. So my house is an example of emergence? The whole concept is so broad that it constitutes nothing more substantive than the trivial observation that "stuff happens." It doesn't add any value; it provides no explanation. At best, it is just a restatement of the fact that "we observed that X occurred." At worst, when put forward as an explanation for something, it functions as anti-knowledge: giving us the false impression that we have explained something, when in fact we have not. 2. "larger entities arise through interactions among smaller or simpler entities" - Even setting aside the formidable logical and definitional problems noted above, this is precisely where the rubber meets the road. How do we know that the larger entity arose through the "interactions among smaller or simpler entities"? If we know how the smaller or simpler entities give rise to the larger entity, then we can describe it perfectly well, thank you very much, without ever invoking this concept of "emergence". That is why we talk about water forming from a certain number of molecules and through certain chemical bonds. We don't talk of water "emerging" from hydrogen and oxygen. If we don't know how smaller or simpler entities give rise to the larger entity, then we can't really say that the larger entity emerged from the smaller entities; certainly we can't say that the smaller entities were sufficient in and of themselves to produce the larger entity. The bottom line with emergence is this: Emergence functions as little more than a placeholder for ignorance. When we know what is going on we don't need to invoke it. And when it is invoked, we can be quite sure that the person invoking it doesn't know what is going on.Eric Anderson
November 2, 2017
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Yes, Eric, we now understand what causes the magnetic field to emerge. emergence:
In philosophy, systems theory, science, and art, emergence is a phenomenon whereby larger entities arise through interactions among smaller or simpler entities such that the larger entities exhibit properties the smaller/simpler entities do not exhibit.
Materialists think that consciousness emerges out of the interactions of neurons that form the brain.ET
November 2, 2017
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ET @42: It is well understood and completely expected by every electrical engineer. True, it may have been a surprise when first discovered. But once they understood what was going on it was a well-understood phenomenon. Also, whether something is expected or unexpected doesn't make the word "emergence" meaningful. For example, how does saying a magnetic field "emerges from x" differ from saying that a magnetic field "is formed by x"? These are logically equivalent statements. So where the rubber meets the road is in whether we understand how the field is formed. If we do, we have an explanation for it. If not, we don't. But just observing that a magnetic field "was formed" and then calling that an explanation would not fool anyone. Yet the emergentists like to pretend that if they call something an "emergence" that they have provided an explanation. They haven't. Saying something emerged is equivalent to saying "it happened" or "it occurred" -- as a result of some unknown, unspecified real cause.Eric Anderson
November 2, 2017
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You are trying to be a materialist and a obscurantist mystic at the same time.
BA, Phrase well-turned. Andrewasauber
November 2, 2017
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CR:
which demands an reductionist explanation
Precisely CR. We are demanding that materialists provide a reductionist explanation for consciousness or admit that they cannot. After all, the whole basis of materialism is the assertion that every single effect in the universe can be reduced to a physical cause. You seem offended that when it comes to consciousness, we are saying put up or shut up. You seem to understand that consciousness cannot be reduced to material causes. Good for you; at least you are not denying the screamingly obvious. Yet you cannot give up your materialism, and this leads you to combine your materialism with an obscurantist mysticism. OK; good luck with that.Barry Arrington
November 2, 2017
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An example of emergence is when a magnetic field emerges out of current flowing through a conductor that is wrapped around a nail. That was unexpected.ET
November 2, 2017
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critical rationalist (from the Stanford presentation): "— Individual atoms obey the laws of quantum mechanics and just interact with other atoms. Somehow, it’s possible to combine them together to make iPhones." This is an example of "emergence"? Seriously? And you just accept such drivel because it is in a Stanford presentation? What does this mean that "somehow" it is possible to combine atoms to make iPhones? Of course it is. And how is it done? By an intelligent agent, carefully planning, organizing and creating. The concept of "emergence" is essentially useless. It is a placeholder for ignorance. Either we know what caused the thing to "emerge" (as in the iPhone) or we don't (as in the case of consciousness). When we know what the cause was, we can fully and completely and accurately describe it without ever using the word "emergence." That word doesn't bring anything to the table and doesn't add any light to the situation. I'm quite confident that Apple's patents covering the iPhone don't say that they took a bunch of atoms and then the iPhone "somehow emerged" from those atoms. What you've fallen into with the Stanford presentation is a bit of bait and switch: The presenter is using design (the iPhone) as a supposed example of non-design (emergence) and then trying to pretend that there is some kind of emergence going on because, hey, we all know the iPhone exists. This is then used to give credence to the idea of emergence in the presentation. This kind of rhetorical tactic (or blunder, rather, as it was probably unintentional) is quite reminiscent of the many times Darwinists try to put forward examples of the alleged power of random mutation and natural selection to create wonderful things, culminating in examples like Berra's Blunder. If there really are good examples of random mutation and natural selection creating wonderful things, Darwinian proponents would just point to them and wouldn't have to fall back on examples of design to try prove their point. If there really were good examples of "emergence" meaning something substantive and creating wonderful things, proponents wouldn't have to fall back on examples of design, like the iPhone, to try to prove their point.Eric Anderson
November 2, 2017
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@Origenes
Let’s consider the possibility that an abstract mind, instantiated on the computationally universal brain, decides to move an arm.
Again, you seem to have confused a level of explanation with a concrete explanation, Specially, you're assuming an example of emergence is the explanation for consciousness, as I had not written my comment on quantum computation yet. Rather, I'm referring to emergence as a classification or type of explanation, not a specific concrete explanation. While it is true that many of our in-progress theories of artificial intelligence are based on the universality of computation, it's not clear that a AGI at a human level would necessary need to be conscious in the sense that we are. It's still relevantly early and there is still much we have to learn. But we are far along enough that any such explanation would not be reductionist in nature. For example, It could be that a genuine artificial general intelligence may become conscious, and we still wouldn't have an explanation consciousness for it yet. This does't change the fact that any expiation would be at the level of emergence. As for free will, it seems like you're starting from the idea that divine revelation tells us we will be eternally greatly rewarded or horribly punished based on our choices. And, that same divine revelation has specific divinely revealed implications for epistemology, such as human beings must be designed for truth, that knowledge is justified true belief, God has preserved his word as it was handed down, morality is written on our hearts, knowledge comes from authoritative sources, such as God or experience, etc. Without all of these things, we wouldn't have enough of a guarantee that we knew truth to the degree that we could be eternally judged. And that would mean the Bible was incorrect, etc. IOW, the theory of mind / consciousness, like the theory of evolution, is yet another theory that unfortunately intersects with supposedly divinely revealed beliefs of what God would do, would not do, did do, or did not do. But this would be true of almost anything. The claim that you actually wrote the comment I'm responding to implicitly denies that God did not create the universe we observe 30 seconds ago, complete with the appearance of age, false memories, etc., for some good reason we cannot comprehend.critical rationalist
November 2, 2017
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“It’s Emergent!”
Every time I read this I wanna do the Electric Slide. Exciting science. /sarc Andrewasauber
November 2, 2017
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@BA Just realized I missed this....
Consciousness is not like that. The physical and the mental are in different ontological categories. There is no way that we know of that could explain, in principle, how the physical could result in the mental.
I'm not denying it would require a different level of explanation. In fact, that's what I've been saying all along. Yet, that doesn't require the addition of some inexplicable realm in which some inexplicable mind exists. Nor does it equate to magic.critical rationalist
November 2, 2017
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First, we are talking about physical systems, not abstractions. So right off the bat, your counter example is not germane.
Huh? There are no non-material computers. So, you cannot have the universality of computation without a physical system. But the explanation for universality of computation is not present at a reductionist level. It is independent of atoms, transistors, vacuum tubes or cogs. That’s what it means for something to be an emergent property. Yet, it is not “magic”. Any such, explantion for consciousness would be of this same class. It would be independent of atoms or electrons. It would be just as unexpected and represent a disproportional leap to universality, just as the universality of computation. Yet, we still get comments like this....
In other words, if a materialist believes that consciousness can be reduced to, and therefore, emerges from matter-energy, he needs to provide step-by-step instructions exactly how that happens not just empty hand-waving assertions.
... which demands an reductionist explantion. Apparently, the best way to atack a theory you find objectionable is to present a false version of it, then point out it’s false or make unreasonable demands. At best, there might be some confused “materialists” that are using the term as concrete explantion, But you have yet to actually provide quotes or arguments to that effect. Even then, their being mistaken wouldn't refute an accurate usage. Again, it’s not actually clear you understand what the term emergent meant in the context of consciousness when you wrote the OP or that you actually want to going forward.
Secondly, even if that were not the case, we can understand how, in principle, the changes in computation at one level can result in the emergence of changes at another level. Your example is thus doubly irrelevant.
And, there was a time when we lacked an explation for the universality of computation. We had computers long before we really understood algorithms and the implications of universality. And we’ve only recently developed the theory of quantum computation, which tells us that any physical system can simulate any other physical system to arbirary accuracy - which tells us we should expect things that we’ve never experienced before, such as Artificial General Intelligence. We don’t have an explantion for the latter yet. However, claiming we cannot have one unless we provide an reductionist explanation reavelis a gross misunderstanding of the different levels of explantion. And, apparently it’s willfully wrong, given the material I found in just a few minutes online and a number of comments that provide clarification.critical rationalist
November 2, 2017
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CR Let's consider the possibility that an abstract mind, instantiated on the computationally universal brain, decides to move an arm. If the mind is the brain, and is produced by neuronal behavior, then the whole path from intentionality to neural change is a purely physical affair. There is no gap between the ‘mental’ and the physical, so no need for a mechanism to close such a gap. I have no questions concerning this scenario — plain old self-referentially incoherent materialism. If, instead, the ‘emergent’ mind is independent from neuronal behavior, if it "can reach down", by free will of its own, and cause neuronal change, I would like to know how this works. Put another way, if the mind is independent from neural behavior then there is by definition a gap between the mind and neurons. Again, if there is no such gap, no such independency, I have no questions. Assuming the gap exists, I would like to know how the hoovering consciousness reaches down causally effective and on what basis it chooses between various options.Origenes
November 2, 2017
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Now I have a little more time. Here is where we are so far: Barry’s argument: In all examples of emergence of physical systems that are well understood (hurricanes, etc.), we can understand how, in principle, the parts could result in the whole, even though it surprises us that they do. Consciousness is not like that. The physical and the mental are in different ontological categories. There is no way that we know of that could explain, in principle, how the physical could result in the mental. CR’s supposed refutation: What about computation? “You forgot the universality of computation, which emerges from a specific repertoire of computations.” First, we are talking about physical systems, not abstractions. So right off the bat, your counter example is not germane. Secondly, even if that were not the case, we can understand how, in principle, the changes in computation at one level can result in the emergence of changes at another level. Your example is thus doubly irrelevant. So, you have not even addressed the argument in the OP, far less refuted it. Here is what you did: Barry makes an argument about emergence. CR talks about emergence in a context that is totally unrelated to Barry’s argument. CR announces that he has refuted Barry’s argument. Not how it works CR old bean.Barry Arrington
November 1, 2017
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@critical rationalist, If you believe that mind/consciousness is emergent and computational, you must also believe that AI soon will be able to match the computational abilities of the human brain, right?J-Mac
November 1, 2017
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@bb, Have you ever questioned your Atheism? I had...or whatever doubts I had had about the existence of God... That's why I became a believer... lol I might be a bit different than most believers in God, because I question every dogma there is...until proven beyond any reasonable doubt...J-Mac
November 1, 2017
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@BA
CR: Apparently, Barry has given up on this claim [that “No one has suggested that computation is an emergent property of physical components.” and, in doing so, implicitly admits he was wrong?
BA: But wait. There’s an alternative explanation, which would be: “Barry works for a living and does not have time to refute every claim made by every asshat troll on UD.”
Or there is nothing to refute. After all, I’ve provided a reference to materials for a class at Stanford U and even quoted the relevant slides. It indicates that the universality of computation is classified as emergent property of computation, and is not “magic”. And that’s just what I found in a few minutes. I hope that when you’re “working for a living”, you do more research before making a claim. And, despite finding time to reply, you still havent addressed it. What other conclusion am I supposed to reach?
Again, blithering nonsense.
Exactly what is “blithering nonsense” about it? Are you saying that’s not a valid definition, and that Standford U is incorrect? Or are you suggesting that “materialists” are referring to something else when they say “emergent properties”? Again, in just a few minutes, I’ve found reference material from Standford U that describes emergence as just that. So, apparently, this is just more vague criticism.
“Emergence” has been advanced as the explanation of consciousness numerous times by materialists.
Numerous times? How many? Which materialists? Where are your quotes? It’s not even clear you know what emergence phenomena meant yourself when you wrote the OP. So how do we know you understood what “materialist” meant when used that term? Surely, you know this sort of thing wouldn’t fly at you “day job”, right? It’s unclear why you think it should fly here either. Who are these materialists? Where are examples of using emergence as an concrete explanation, as opposed to a class of explantion - which would be a mistaken usage of the term, not refutation that an explanation for consciousness would take the form of a “property that arises out of smaller pieces that doesn’t seem to exist in any of the individual pieces.” and not refer to magic any more than the universality of computation. Otherwise, this is just more vague criticism.critical rationalist
November 1, 2017
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@J-Mac Have you ever questioned your Atheism?bb
November 1, 2017
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@bb 28 The real purpose of the video is revealed at about 5 min mark and on... I don't think you should be watching it though... It's for those who have an open mind... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRSBaq3vAeYJ-Mac
November 1, 2017
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CR, I have time for a couple of drive-by snippets.
"Barry has given up on this claim"
But wait. There's an alternative explanation, which would be: "Barry works for a living and does not have time to refute every claim made by every asshat troll on UD."
"To clarify, emergence is a level, class or category of explanation, not a specific concrete explanation"
Again, blithering nonsense. "Emergence" has been advanced as the explanation of consciousness numerous times by materialists. This is common knowledge, which leads me to believe that your assertion is not a mere mistake. But I suppose if deflection and equivocation are all you've got then you have to go with it.Barry Arrington
November 1, 2017
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@J-Mac I watched the 1st 5 minutes of your video, and didn't hear anything I didn't already know. Before I waste an entire 40 minutes, please tell me what, precisely, in your link makes the material case for consciousness. I suspect it's just a bluff. Give me a reason to think otherwise. CR is squirting ink like a squid and not really making his case, but rather is redefining "emergent" to suit what he wants to be reality, as opposed to describing what we all observe.bb
November 1, 2017
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To clarify, emergence is a level, class or category of explanation, not a specific concrete explanarion, such as the theory of computation, which is a emergent explanation for the universality of computation. As such, it’s unclear how emergence could be “magic” in that sense. The universality of computation is not “magic”, yet is is an unexpected result of a specific repertoire of computations. It meets the criteria of an emergent explanation.critical rationalist
November 1, 2017
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BA: “You forgot the universality of computation . . .” Nonsense. No one has suggested that computation is an emergent property of physical components.
Furthermore, apparently Stanford University is “no one”. From this presentation…
Apparently, Barry has given up on this claim and, in doing so, implicitly admits he was wrong?critical rationalist
November 1, 2017
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@John_a_designer
The burden of proof rests on those who want to explain consciousness on the basis of something else. In other words, if a materialist believes that consciousness can be reduced to, and therefore, emerges from matter-energy, he needs to provide step-by-step instructions exactly how that happens not just empty hand-waving assertions.
It's unclear if you actually read my comment. Specifically...
Emergent Properties – An emergent property of a system is a property that arises out of smaller pieces that doesn’t seem to exist in any of the individual pieces.
and
Two Emergent Properties – There are two key emergent properties of computation that we will discuss: — Universality: There is a single computing device capable of performing any computation.
As such, "The basis of something else", wouldn't be those smaller pieces or reducible to them. That's what it literally means for something to be emergent. Again, the universality of computation is one such example, where the ability to run any program that any other Turing machine can run doesn't come from the smaller pieces, such a cogs, vacuum tubes or transistor, atoms, etc. IOW, we already have examples of emergence that you're using right now. You don't have one device that is a web browser, and another device for checking your mail, and another device to manage photos you've take, etc. You have a single device (Turing machine) that can, in principle, run any program that any other device (Turing machine) can run. My phone can do all of those things. And even things tomorrow that it currently can't do today because it can run different algorithms than any other TM can run. That's a concrete example of a leap to universality, which comes from a single, disproportional change in a physical system. And, as far as we know, it doesn't require an kind of supernatural intervention when that disproportional physical change is made. (Well, I guess you could just as well claim that God makes computers universal when they are constructed, just as people claim God endows people consciousness when they are constructed from raw materials.) We do not currently have an explanation for consciousness, as we do with Turing machines. But any such explanation we do have will be emergent, just like our explanation for the universality of computation. It will be of that class of explanation, as opposed to some reductionist explanation about atoms, etc.critical rationalist
November 1, 2017
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CR:
God is an inexplicable mind that exists in an inexplicable ream that operates via inexplicable means and methods.
So what? ID is not about God. You lose.ET
November 1, 2017
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CR:
ID suffers from bad philosophy.
That is your opinion and unfortunately iot is based on your ignorance of ID.
“An abstract designer did it” is a bad explanation because it is easily varied.
Not really. The only way it can be varied is if someone demonstrated a designer is not required.ET
November 1, 2017
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@asauber
You are suffering from bad philosophy.
Actually, that's been my argument all along. ID suffers from bad philosophy.
You apparently want to insist any/every answer fit your materialist worldview. You don’t know that it can, but you keep insisting.
No, I want good explanations. Supposedly non-material "explanations" are bad because they are easily varied without significantly impacting their ability to explain the phenomena in question. This is not unique to non-material "explanations". That I supposedly have a bias against something merely because it is non-material is simply false. How can we find an error in an conjectured explanation when it can be easily varied without significantly reducing its ability to explain the phenomena in question ? From another thread...
“An abstract designer did it” is a bad explanation because it is easily varied. For example, contrast our modern day explanation of seasons with the ancient Greek explanation for the seasons, which is shallow and easily varied. Persephone, the Goddess of spring, enters into a forced marriage contract with Hades, the God of the underworld. Persephone escapes, but is magically compelled to return to the underworld every year, which causes her mother Demeter, who is goddess of the harvest, to become sad, causing winter. If the ancient Greeks knew Australia was at it’s warmest, when they were at it’s coolest, thet could have easily varied their myth to account for this variation. This is because the cast of characters are only connected to seasons though the myth itself, and the roles they play could be varied without significantly reducing it’s ability to explain seasons. Any story of annual action would do. For example, It could just as well be that Demeter is sad when Persephone returns and pushes heat away from her vicinity, causing summer. So, even if they observed the seasons out of phase, they wouldn’t have got one jot closer because their explanation was bad (easy to vary) This is in contrast to our current explanation of the seasons, which represents a long chain of hard to vary, independently formed explanations across multiple fields. The earth’s rotation is titled in respect to it’s orbit around the sun. A spinning sphere retains it’s tilt. Surfaces titled away from radiant heat are headed less. Along, with out theories of photons, the origin of star light (nuclear fusion), etc. If the seasons were not observed out of phase, there is no easy way to vary this observation without significantly impacting it’s ability to explain the seasons. Its proponents would have no where go. So, our explanation for the seasons is good not only because it’s falsifiable, but because it’s hard to vary, which makes the key difference. Note that being easily varied is not limited to the supernatural. Natural explanations can be easily varied as well and would also be bad explanations.
This is my argument as to why ID is bad philosophy.critical rationalist
November 1, 2017
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According to David Chalmers, “My knowledge of consciousness… comes from my own case, not from any external observation. It is my first-person experience of consciousness that forces the problem on me.” That’s where I and everyone else needs to begin if we are going to have any kind of meaningful discussion. The burden of proof rests on those who want to explain consciousness on the basis of something else. In other words, if a materialist believes that consciousness can be reduced to, and therefore, emerges from matter-energy, he needs to provide step-by-step instructions exactly how that happens not just empty hand-waving assertions.john_a_designer
November 1, 2017
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It’s like pushing the food around on your plate, then claiming to have ate it. Yet, its still right there, staring you in the face.
CR, You are suffering from bad philosophy. You apparently want to insist any/every answer fit your materialist worldview. You don't know that it can, but you keep insisting. Andrewasauber
November 1, 2017
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@bb No offence, you have no idea what you are talking about...You obviously know litter about QM... This may help... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRSBaq3vAeY PC should do his next piece on this video... ;-)J-Mac
November 1, 2017
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