Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

It’s time for scientists to come clean with the public about evolution and the origin of life

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

As we’ve seen, a large percentage of the American public – 47% according to a recent Harris Interactive poll – now believes in Darwin’s theory of evolution. One possible reason for this high percentage is that high school and college students are not told about the problems which call Darwin’s theory into question – as well as theories of evolution which are based on random genetic drift.

Still, there are heartening signs that the wall of ignorance supporting the dam of evolutionary orthodoxy is about to collapse. A steady stream of ground-breaking books and peer-reviewed scientific articles authored by scientists who question key assumptions of modern evolutionary theory has been coming out in the last couple of years. It is only a matter of time before these articles and books get the attention of the general public. What’s important here is that the scientists writing these books and articles are not “outsiders” who reject evolution, but “insiders” who recognize that contemporary theories of evolution are radically deficient in explaining the origin and evolution of life.

Scientists have calculated that Darwin’s theory of natural selection brings about changes too slowly for evolution to have occurred in just 4 billion years

In 2010, a paper by Herbert S. Wilf and Warren J. Ewens, titled, “There’s plenty of time for evolution”, was published in the Proceedings of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) (doi: 10.1073/pnas.1016207107). The aim of the paper’s authors was to demonstrate mathematically that “there has been ample time for the evolution that we observe to have taken place.” At the time, the article was given wide publicity, and it was featured prominently over at Professor Jerry Coyne’s Website, Why Evolution is True, while Professor P.Z. Myers claimed the paper provided “a guide to short-circuiting the invalid assumptions of creationists.” Sadly, very few people read about the devastating rebuttal of Wilf and Ewens’s paper by Winston Ewert, William A. Dembski, Ann K. Gauger, Robert J. Marks II, in a paper titled, Time and Information in Evolution, in BIO-Complexity, Volume 2012 (4). The authors concluded that Wilf and Ewens’s paper did not accurately model biological evolution, firstly because their model included “implicit information sources, including the equivalent of a highly informed oracle that prophesies when a mutation is ‘correct,’ thus accelerating the search by the evolutionary process,” and secondly because the model makes “unrealistic biological assumptions that, in effect, simplify the search.”

Now, however, it seems that the scientific community is finally starting to come clean about the fact that Darwinian evolution is nowhere near capable of generating the diversity of life-forms we see on Earth today within the time available (four billion years).

Edward Frenkel, a professor of mathematics at the University of California, Berkeley, recently reviewed a book titled, Probably Approximately Correct: Nature’s Algorithms for Learning and Prospering in a Complex World (Basic Books, 2013) by computer scientist Leslie Valiant, in a report for the New York Times (Evolution, Speeded by Computation, September 30, 2013). The following excerpt conveys the gist of Dr. Valiant’s conclusions:

The evolution of species, as Darwin taught us, relies on natural selection. But Dr. Valiant argues that if all the mutations that drive evolution were simply random and equally distributed, it would proceed at an impossibly slow and inefficient pace.

Darwin’s theory “has the gaping gap that it can make no quantitative predictions as far as the number of generations needed for the evolution of a behavior of a certain complexity,” he writes. “We need to explain how evolution is possible at all, how we got from no life, or from very simple life, to life as complex as we find it on earth today. This is the BIG question.”

Dr. Valiant proposes that natural selection is supplemented by ecorithms, which enable organisms to learn and adapt more efficiently. Not all mutations are realized with equal probability; those that are more beneficial are more likely to occur. In other words, evolution is accelerated by computation.

The criticisms being made here of the Darwinian theory of evolution are pretty devastating: not only is it far too slow to generate life in all its diversity, but it’s also utterly incapable of making quantitative predictions about the time required for a structure of known complexity to evolve, by natural selection. And there’s no reason to believe that the “nearly neutral theory of evolution” espoused by biologists such as Professor Larry Moran would fare any better, in this regard.

So what is Dr. Valiant’s alternative? It sounds as if he is advocating some kind of teleological, or purpose-driven evolution. That’s fine, but it raises a deeper question: who or what made evolution capable of achieving its goals within only a few billion years? Is the evolutionary process fine-tuned?

A new kind of evolution is required to account for the Cambrian explosion

Shortly after the publication of Stephen Meyer’s scholarly work, Darwin’s Doubt, an article by Michael Lee, Julien Soubrier and Gregory D. Edgecombe, titled, Rates of Phenotypic and Genomic Evolution during the Cambrian Explosion (Current Biology, Volume 23, Issue 19, 1889-1895, 12 September 2013), which was widely hailed as a decisive refutation of the claims made in Dr. Meyer’s book. The article’s authors claimed that that evolution ran about five times faster during the Cambrian than its usual, gradual pace. That, they say, accounts for the Cambrian explosion. The key message: evolution’s “big bang” is fully compatible with Darwinian evolution. What the article overlooked was that Meyer’s central criticism of the Darwinian account had nothing to do with the time available; rather, it had to do with the type of evolution required to account for the changes that took place at that time – namely, the simultaneous appearance of about 30 different kinds of animal body plans, during the Cambrian period. (See here for a critical review of Lee et al.‘s article.)

But truth will out, one way or another. The scientific world might have ignored Meyer’s arguments, but they could not ignore the arguments made by two paleontologists who are widely acknowledged as leading authorities on the Cambrian explosion: Douglas Erwin and James Valentine. Over at Evolution News, Casey Luskin recently reviewed Erwin and Valentine’s latest ground-breaking book, The Cambrian Explosion: The Construction of Animal Biodiversity (Roberts and Company, 2013). A few relevant excerpts will serve to convey the gist of the book’s central argument, which is that nothing less than a radically new kind of evolution is required in order to understand what kicked off the Cambrian explosion:

One important concern has been whether the microevolutionary patterns commonly studied in modern organisms by evolutionary biologists are sufficient to understand and explain the events of the Cambrian or whether evolutionary theory needs to be expanded to include a more diverse set of macroevolutionary processes. We strongly hold to the latter position. (pp. 9-10)

Because the Cambrian explosion involved a significant number of separate lineages, achieving remarkable morphological breadth over millions of years, the Cambrian explosion can be considered an adaptive radiation only by stretching the term beyond all recognition… [T]he scale of morphological divergence is wholly incommensurate with that seen in other adaptive radiations. (p. 341)

The pathway from sponges to eumetazoans is the most enigmatic of any evolutionary transition in metazoans. This transition occurred during the Cryogenian, almost contemporaneously with the diversification of sponges. Many biologists concerned with metazoan phylogeny have been convinced that “ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny” and have therefore assumed that the planktonic larval stages of invertebrate phyla represented their ancestral forms. The benthic nature of sponges and the paraphyly of the major clades demonstrate that planktonic stages could not have been ancestral to eumetazoans. Further, there are no living intermediates between sponges and eumetazoans, with the possible exception of placotozoans, and no obvious hints from the fossil record. (p. 324)

To be sure, all pairs of crown phyla had common ancestors; as far as we know, however, none of those bilaterian LCAs [last common ancestors – VJT] had features that would cause them to be diagnosed as members of living phyla, although that could be the case in a few instances. In other words, the morphological distances — gaps — between body plans of crown phyla were present when body fossils first appeared during the explosion and have been with us ever since. The morphological disparity is so great between most phyla that the homologous reference points or landmarks required for quantitative studies of morphology are absent. (p. 340)
(Emphases mine – VJT.)

Summing up his review of Erwin and Valentine’s book for the journal Science, Christopher J. Lowe wrote:

The Ediacaran and Cambrian periods witnessed a phase of morphological innovation in animal evolution unrivaled in metazoan history, yet the proximate causes of this body plan revolution remain decidedly murky. The grand puzzle of the Cambrian explosion surely must rank as one of the most important outstanding mysteries in evolutionary biology.
(Christopher J. Lowe, “What Led to Metazoa’s Big Bang?”, Science, Vol. 340: 1170-1171 (June 7, 2013). (Emphasis added – VJT.))

This is the big story that high school and college students in most Western countries have been shielded from hearing about – until now. Hopefully the publication of a book by two acknowledged scientific authorities on the Cambrian explosion will break the taboo that still surrounds discussion of this topic, in science classrooms – and since the authors are not Intelligent Design proponents, there can be no legal objection to a free and frank discussion of the claims made in their book. The weaknesses of the Darwinian story of the Cambrian explosion need to be exposed, for all to see.

Origin of life scenarios are plagued with problems that refuse to go away

The origin of life is often bracketed to one side by Darwinists, who argue that it falls outside the scope of the theory of evolution. But methodological naturalism (which is currently regarded as the “official” methodology of science) claims to provide a naturalistic account of origins, and in order to do that, it needs to show that the origin of life is at least a tractable problem, even if no solution to the problem has yet been found.

Last month, science reporter Suzan Mazur interviewed Dr. Steve Benner, director of the Florida-based Westheimer Institute at the Foundation for Applied Molecular Evolution, in a report for the Huffington Post. Mazur asked Dr. Benner several questions about an upcoming conference he will be chairing in January, called the “Origins of Life / Gordon Research Conference.” In the course of the interview, Benner referred to four major hurdles confronting any theory for getting from simple chemicals to a Darwinian replicator, such as RNA. Dr. Benner admitted that the track record to date in overcoming these hurdles has been one of unmitigated failure:

We have failed in any continuous way to provide a recipe that gets from the simple molecules that we know were present on early Earth to RNA. There is a discontinuous model which has many pieces, many of which have experimental support, but we’re up against these three or four paradoxes, which you and I have talked about in the past. The first paradox is the tendency of organic matter to devolve and to give tar. If you can avoid that, you can start to try to assemble things that are not tarry, but then you encounter the water problem, which is related to the fact that every interesting bond that you want to make is unstable, thermodynamically, with respect to water. If you can solve that problem, you have the problem of entropy, that any of the building blocks are going to be present in a low concentration; therefore, to assemble a large number of those building blocks, you get a gene-like RNA — 100 nucleotides long — that fights entropy. And the fourth problem is that even if you can solve the entropy problem, you have a paradox that RNA enzymes, which are maybe catalytically active, are more likely to be active in the sense that destroys RNA rather than creates RNA.

How many people know about these problems? Very few. And in case you’re wondering why, Mazur highlights the main reason at the beginning of her article: lack of transparency, illustrated by the secrecy surrounding the conference Dr. Benner will be directing later this month:

There is an elaborate registration process, a fee of over $1,000 to attend, and approval by Chairman Steve Benner required. Plus, conference goers are asked not to reveal what went on there.

(UPDATE: I have been informed that the “gag rule” is not as sinister as it sounds: it protects research-in-progress, which is often presented by conferees, and normal scientific priority concerns.)

Ms. Mazur has done the public a great service in getting a leading member of the scientific community to open up about the problems facing origin-of-life scenarios. It is high time that people realized the magnitude of the problem, and the publication of a revealing interview such as this one in the pages of The Huffington Post marks a major milestone.

Speculative new proposals, such as dynamic kinetic stability, fail to quantify, and therefore don’t deserve to be called science

During her interview with Dr. Benner, Suzan Mazur also referred to a recent paper by Robert Pascal et al., titled, Towards an evolutionary theory of the origin of life based on kinetics and thermodynamics (Open Biology, November 2013, doi: 10.1098/rsob.130156). After exposing the inadequacies of currently accepted models of the origin of life, the authors go on to propose a model of their own, in which the origin of life may have proceeded stepwise through states of partial “aliveness.” According to the authors, a rare kind of chemical stability, known as dynamic kinetic stability, was what permitted the development of entities that were capable of self-reproduction, and whose descendants gradually accumulated novel biological functions, over the course of geological time. However, the authors freely acknowledge what they refer to as “the difficulty in quantifying dynamic kinetic stability”:

Starting from the axiomatic principle that a transition to life is not physically and statistically impossible, and choosing a temperature compatible with the presence of liquid water, we end in a semi-quantitative representation consistent with life as we know it, which is based on covalent bonds and largely dependent, directly or indirectly, on visible light from the Sun (Scheme 5). This representation of the origin of life process has then the capability of explaining the living world in a consistent way. There has been a lively discussion on the opposition of Monod’s views considered above and de Duve’s ‘cosmic imperative’ [58]. Contrary to deterministic views, the ideas developed here do not allow any assessment of the level of probability of life and its emergence, nor any prediction of its evolutionary path. Rather they support the idea that spontaneous self-organization of systems manifesting many of the features of living beings is a reasonable possibility in the physical world, provided that several conditions are met.

To the untutored layperson, the authors’ suggested mechanism for the origin of life sounds plausible. And that’s precisely what’s wrong with it. The skeptical philosopher Dr. Stephen Law recently published a book about how we should form our beliefs, in which he argued that “any belief, no matter how ludicrous, can be made to be consistent with the available evidence, given a little patience and ingenuity.” Dr. Law’s point was that mere plausibility isn’t enough to make a theory true; any theory can be made to sound plausible. The only theories which are truly worthy of our belief are those which are probable, as opposed to merely plausible. And what makes a theory probable, according to Law, is the discovery of confirming evidence, which he defined as evidence such that the probability of finding it would be low, if the theory were false.

The big problem I have with the paper, Towards an evolutionary theory of the origin of life based on kinetics and thermodynamics by Pascal et al., is that it explicitly jettisons Law’s probability requirement, and lowers the evidential bar: a theory for the origin of life is now deemed adequate, so long as it is plausible. The authors contend that since it is impossible to calculate the probabilities of the emergence of life or its subsequent evolution along the pathway leading to the life-forms we observe on Earth today, it is enough to show that the evolution of life on Earth is “a reasonable possibility in the physical world” and that “a transition to life is not physically and statistically impossible.” In other words, the authors are defining plausibility, rather than probability, as the epistemic yardstick by which the theory of evolution ought to be judged. This, I have to say, is not science. And that in turn entails that modern theories of evolution are not scientific theories either, since they do not even attempt to quantify the time it should take for complex structures to evolve, which means that they should not be accorded the respect given to scientific theories.

The authors’ cavalier attitude to probability is especially problematic, in the light of recent research by Dr. Douglas Axe and Dr. Ann Gauger (see here and here), which suggests that even a relatively trivial change in the enzymatic function of a single protein is extremely unlikely to occur, and that Darwin’s mechanism would require a trillion trillion years – about 100 trillion times longer than the age of the universe – to bring it about. Axe and Gauger explain the significance of their research in highly accessible layperson’s language and respond to to their critics here, here and here.

Calculating the probabilities: Eugene Koonin admits that the origin of life requires a multiverse

The best way of getting around the improbability of life evolving on Earth is to invoke the multiverse. Dr. Eugene V. Koonin is a Senior Investigator at the National Center for Biotechnology Information, which is part of the National Library of Medicine, a branch of the National Institutes of Health, in Bethesda, Maryland, USA. Dr. Koonin is also a recognized authority in the field of evolutionary and computational biology. Recently, he authored a book, titled, The Logic of Chance: The Nature and Origin of Biological Evolution (Upper Saddle River: FT Press, 2011, ISBN 978-0-13-262317-9). I think we can fairly assume that when it comes to origin-of-life scenarios, he knows what he’s talking about.

In Appendix B of his book, The Logic of Chance, Dr. Koonin argues that the origin of life is such a remarkable event that we need to postulate a multiverse, containing a very large (and perhaps infinite) number of universes, in order to explain the emergence of life on Earth.

The reason why Dr. Koonin believes we need to postulate a multiverse in order to solve the riddle of the origin of life on Earth is that all life is dependent on replication and translation systems which are fiendishly complex. As Koonin puts it:

The origin of the translation system is, arguably, the central and the hardest problem in the study of the origin of life, and one of the hardest in all evolutionary biology. The problem has a clear catch-22 aspect: high translation fidelity hardly can be achieved without a complex, highly evolved set of RNAs and proteins but an elaborate protein machinery could not evolve without an accurate translation system.

Dr. Koonin claims that the emergence of even a basic replication-translation system on the primordial Earth is such an astronomically unlikely event that we would need to postulate a vast number of universes, in which all possible scenarios are played out, in order to make its emergence likely.

To justify this claim, Dr. Koonin provides what he calls “a rough, toy calculation of the upper bound of the probability of the emergence of a coupled replication-translation system in an O-region.” (That’s an observable universe, such as the one we live in.) The calculations on pages 434-435 in Appendix B of Dr. Koonin’s book, The Logic of Chance, are adapted from his peer-reviewed article, The Cosmological Model of Eternal Inflation and the Transition from Chance to Biological Evolution in the History of Life, Biology Direct 2 (2007): 15, doi:10.1186/1745-6150-2-15. As readers can verify for themselves, the wording is virtually identical in the 2007 article. I shall reproduce the relevant passage below (bold emphases are mine – VJT):

Probabilities of the emergence, by chance, of different versions of the breakthrough system in an O-region: a back-of-the-envelope calculation of the upper bounds

…A ribozyme replicase consisting of ~100 nucleotides is conceivable, so, in principle, spontaneous origin of such an entity in a finite universe consisting of a single O-region cannot be ruled out in this toy model (again, the rate of RNA synthesis considered here is a deliberate, gross over-estimate).

The requirements for the emergence of a primitive, coupled replication-translation system, which is considered a candidate for the breakthrough stage in this paper, are much greater. At a minimum, spontaneous formation of the following is required:

– Two rRNAs with a total size of at least 1000 nucleotides

– Approximately 10 primitive adaptors of about 30 nucleotides each, for a total of approximately 300 nucleotides

– At least one RNA encoding a replicase, about 500 nucleotides (low bound)is required. Under the notation used here, n = 1800, resulting in E <10-1018.

In other words, even in this toy model that assumes a deliberately inflated rate of RNA production, the probability that a coupled translation-replication emerges by chance in a single O-region is P < 10-1018. Obviously, this version of the breakthrough stage can be considered only in the context of a universe with an infinite (or, at the very least, extremely vast) number of O-regions.

The model considered here is not supposed to be realistic by any account. It only serves to illustrate the difference in the demands on chance for the origin of different versions of the breakthrough system and, hence, the connections between these versions and different cosmological models of the universe.

Dr. Koonin’s 2007 paper, which contained the above calculations, passed a panel of four reviewers, including one from Harvard University, who wrote:

In this work, Eugene Koonin estimates the probability of arriving at a system capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution and comes to a cosmologically small number… He cites recent work in cosmology that highlights the vastness of the universe, where any series of events is necessarily played out an infinite number of times. This so-called “many-worlds in one” model essentially reconceives any chance event as a necessary one, where its (absolute) abundance is proportional to its chance of occurring.

The context of this article is framed by the current lack of a complete and plausible scenario for the origin of life. Koonin specifically addresses the front-runner model, that of the RNA-world, where self-replicating RNA molecules precede a translation system. He notes that in addition to the difficulties involved in achieving such a system is the paradox of attaining a translation system through Darwinian selection. That this is indeed a bona-fide paradox is appreciated by the fact that, without a shortage [of] effort, a plausible scenario for translation evolution has not been proposed to date. There have been other models for the origin of life, including the ground-breaking Lipid-world model advanced by Segrè, Lancet and colleagues (reviewed in EMBO Reports (2000), 1(3), 217–222), but despite much ingenuity and effort, it is fair to say that all origin of life models suffer from astoundingly low probabilities of actually occurring

…[F]uture work may show that starting from just a simple assembly of molecules, non-anthropic principles can account for each step along the rise to the threshold of Darwinian evolution. Based upon the new perspective afforded to us by Koonin this now appears unlikely. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

I am very pleased to see that the argument presented in Koonin’s peer-reviewed paper was republished in his recent book, The Logic of Chance: The Nature and Origin of Biological Evolution (Upper Saddle River: FT Press, 2011, ISBN 978-0-13-262317-9). It is encouraging to see that the experts within the field of origin-of-life studies are finally starting to speak the truth in a public forum: the origin of life on Earth, by any naturalistic scenario, must have been an astronomically improbable event. Hopefully, it won’t be too long before high school and college students get to hear about this, as well.

Why the multiverse won’t help explain the origin of life

But for all its ingenuity, Dr. Koonin’s multiverse won’t work. The multiverse hypothesis is plagued by two problems: first, it merely shifts the fine-tuning problem up one level, as a multiverse capable of generating any life-supporting universes at all would still need to be fine-tuned; and second, even the multiverse hypothesis implies that a sizable proportion of universes (including perhaps our own) were intelligently designed. Once again, the articles arguing for these conclusions are written by highly respected authorities in the field.

Dr. Robin Collins is a Professor of Philosophy and chair of the Department of Philosophy at Messiah College in Grantham, Pennsylvania. Dr. Collins also spent two years in a Ph.D. program in Physics at the University of Texas at Austin before transferring to the University of Notre Dame where he received a Ph.D. in philosophy in 1993. In an influential essay entitled, The Teleological Argument: An Exploration of the Fine-Tuning of the Universe (in The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology, edited by William Lane Craig and J. P. Moreland, 2009, Blackwell Publishing Ltd.), Dr. Robin Collins offers a scientific explanation of why even a “multiverse-generator” would still fail to eliminate the need for fine-tuning:

[A]s a test case, consider the inflationary type multiverse generator. In order for it to explain the fine-tuning of the constants, it must hypothesize one or more “mechanisms” for laws that will do the following [four] things: (i) cause the expansion of a small region of space into a very large region; (ii) generate the very large amount of mass-energy needed for that region to contain matter instead of merely empty space; (iii) convert the mass-energy of inflated space to the sort of mass-energy we find in our universe; and (iv) cause sufficient variations among the constants of physics to explain their fine-tuning.

[T]o achieve (i)–(ii), we effectively have a sort of “conspiracy” between at least two different factors: the inflaton field that gives empty space a positive energy density, and Einstein’s equation… of General Relativity, which dictates that space expand at an enormous rate in the presence of a large near-homogenous positive energy density… Without either factor, there would neither be regions of space that inflate nor would those regions have the mass-energy necessary for a universe to exist.

In addition to the four factors listed, the fundamental physical laws underlying a multiverse generator – whether of the inflationary type or some other – must be just right in order for it to produce life-permitting universes, instead of merely dead universes. Specifically, these fundamental laws must be such as to allow the conversion of the mass-energy into material forms that allow for the sort of stable complexity needed for complex intelligent life…

In sum, even if an inflationary-superstring multiverse generator exists, it must have just the right combination of laws and fields for the production of life-permitting universes: if one of the components were missing or different, such as Einstein’s equation or the Pauli Exclusion Principle, it is unlikely that any life-permitting universes could be produced. Consequently, at most, this highly speculative scenario would explain the fine-tuning of the constants of physics, but at the cost of postulating additional fine-tuning of the laws of nature.

There’s another problem with the multiverse hypothesis, too. Physicist Paul Davies has argued that the multiverse hypothesis is just as “theological” as the hypothesis that there is a God, since it implies the existence of intelligently designed universes:

Among the myriad universes similar to ours will be some in which technological civilizations advance to the point of being able to simulate consciousness. Eventually, entire virtual worlds will be created inside computers, their conscious inhabitants unaware that they are the simulated products of somebody else’s technology. For every original world, there will be a stupendous number of available virtual worlds – some of which would even include machines simulating virtual worlds of their own, and so on ad infinitum.

Taking the multiverse theory at face value, therefore, means accepting that virtual worlds are more numerous than “real” ones. There is no reason to expect our world – the one in which you are reading this right now – to be real as opposed to a simulation. And the simulated inhabitants of a virtual world stand in the same relationship to the simulating system as human beings stand in relation to the traditional Creator.

Far from doing away with a transcendent Creator, the multiverse theory actually injects that very concept at almost every level of its logical structure. Gods and worlds, creators and creatures, lie embedded in each other, forming an infinite regress in unbounded space.

— Paul Davies, A Brief History of the Multiverse, New York Times, 12 April 2003.

Both Collins’ and Davies’ articles, which expose the flaws in appealing to the multiverse hypothesis as an alternative to theism, are freely available at Websites which make no attempt to push a theistic worldview: Collins’ paper is available at commonsenseatheism.com/, for instance. As such, these sites are above suspicion, and teachers wishing to foster critical thinking skills in their students should not hesitate to make use of the articles they contain, which call into question not only the Darwinian theory of evolution, but also the reigning naturalistic worldview.

Let us hope, then, that 2014 brings further good tidings in the fight against ignorance and scientific “groupthink.”

Comments
jlafan2001: Still dodging all rebuttals and questions from previous threads, I see. I guess you hope that by constantly migrating to new threads when you start losing the argument, new readers won't realize how soundly you were thrashed on other occasions. Or perhaps you have found that some of the criticisms cut too close to the bone for you to deal with. In any case, your intellectual cowardice gives new depths to the expressions "spineless" and "yellow."Timaeus
January 4, 2014
January
01
Jan
4
04
2014
01:03 AM
1
01
03
AM
PDT
Mark, Are you telling us its too complicated for you to tell us how you would: "balance your views to ensure that you do not discount that reality [of agency being a real force in nature] in preference to a speculation that can be foreever postulated, and therefore never brought to a test of its validity?" If this is true, it's an amazing admission.Upright BiPed
January 4, 2014
January
01
Jan
4
04
2014
12:52 AM
12
12
52
AM
PDT
MF: You are right that it is a problem to come up with a definitive proof of what happened billions of years ago. But it is not impossible. Events have consequences and leave traces and they conform to laws of physics and chemistry. UB: The Space Shuttle follows the laws of chemistry and physics as well… but its origin is not explained by them. How do you make room for agent intervention as a real force in nature, and how do you balance your views to ensure that you do not discount that reality in preference to a speculation that can be foreever postulated, and therefore never brought to a test of its validity? likespy: From materialists, you will never get a rational response to this simple and reasonable question. I am betting it is carefully avoided in this comment section. Mark Frank: If this is a simple question I would hate to see a complicated one! What on earth does it mean? What would an answer look like?
Carefully avoided, indeed.Upright BiPed
January 4, 2014
January
01
Jan
4
04
2014
12:44 AM
12
12
44
AM
PDT
@Querius # 59
I’m not so sure that a being with an IQ of let’s say a billion would really need to intervene constantly in nature as a part-time designer. ... I mean the DNA and epigenetics would have been just sitting there, and having a IQ of a billion means that one could get bored pretty quickly, right?
The computational foundations require computational substratum to continuously compute everything that universe is doing at physical, chemical and biological levels at all times and in all places, not just every now and then when something seems to someone, say from Discovery Institute, "irreducible" complex. In this computational perspective (which has a notable following), what our present natural science sees as "elementary" particles "randomly" interacting are merely few coarse grained properties or regularities of the far more subtle underlying activity computed by the anticipatory algorithms, analogous to gliders patterns moving on the computer screen in the Conway's Game of Life. In that perspective, biology is not reducible to chemistry and physics, but all of them are merely different incomplete glimpses at the same underlying computational activity.nightlight
January 4, 2014
January
01
Jan
4
04
2014
12:14 AM
12
12
14
AM
PDT
lifepsy #50
The Space Shuttle follows the laws of chemistry and physics as well… but its origin is not explained by them. How do you make room for agent intervention as a real force in nature, and how do you balance your views to ensure that you do not discount that reality in preference to a speculation that can be foreever postulated, and therefore never brought to a test of its validity?
From materialists, you will never get a rational response to this simple and reasonable question. I am betting it is carefully avoided in this comment section.
If this is a simple question I would hate to see a complicated one! What on earth does it mean?  What would an answer look like?Mark Frank
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
11:43 PM
11
11
43
PM
PDT
Ken Miller is a Catholic and has defended his faith. Do you think he would write this textbook to deliberately trick his fellow theists?
Ken Miller is a "Catholic" whose main claim to fame is being a talking-head stooge for the NCSE, for aggressively attacking fellow Catholics and Christians in general, and keeping his mouth shut rather than criticize any atheists. He's even advanced materialism, explicitly. What's more, are you going to say you don't believe self-proclaimed theists ever deliberately deceive fellow theists? Come on, say that one. It's like saying atheists never steal from atheists.nullasalus
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
08:51 PM
8
08
51
PM
PDT
Jaceli123 "Thanks vjtorley our first unit for the semester is population genetics and evolution. Can’t wait here the darwin bull cr*p that comes out of my teachers mouth. Our text books are from 2004 so everything is kind of out dated. The authors are ken miller and levine." Perhaps you should stop with your close-mindedness and actually look and consider what your teachers are trying to teach you. They are trying to educate so that you don't remain in ignorance and you're chastising them for it. Ken Miller is a Catholic and has defended his faith. Do you think he would write this textbook to deliberately trick his fellow theists? Wake up and learn. Don't find yourself realizing one day that you should have listened to what you were taught.JLAfan2001
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
08:41 PM
8
08
41
PM
PDT
Barb @ 60 noted
The general thinking among scientists appears to be “life will begin whenever it is given an environment where it can begin.”
When I realized that this thinking was simply a more sophisticated version of Von Helmont's experiment with his recipe for spontaneously generated mice, that there was no mechanism for making this happen, and I began to understand the fiendish complexity of the chemical cycles required for life, the whole OOL and Darwinism thing fell apart in my mind. For at what point does OOL leave off and evolution begins? It's all supposed to ratchet up by itself. Assuming a billion years in each of a billion billion universes to produce a laughably improbable chance event is completely indistinguishable from a miracle. I say, let biological alchemists come up with a working demonstration of any kind. Then, we'll have something to work with. Maybe they can inject some simplified RNA of their own design into coacervates along with some amino acids and start tweaking things. -QQuerius
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
06:59 PM
6
06
59
PM
PDT
The major problem with OOL is the logic scientists use to begin researching it. To many scientists, it seems logical to believe that if life could evolve from nonliving matter on this planet, that could be true on others as well. The general thinking among scientists appears to be "life will begin whenever it is given an environment where it can begin.” But that is where evolution faces an insurmountable objection, because scientists cannot even explain how life began on this planet. Gene Bylinsky, in his book Life in Darwin’s Universe, speculates on the various paths evolution might have taken on alien worlds. He suggests that intelligent octopuses, marsupial men with pouches on their stomachs, and bat-people who make musical instruments are not at all farfetched. Renowned scientists have praised his book. If anything Bylinsky wrote (as noted above) appeared in a religious text, it would have been laughed at and mocked mercilessly by atheists and scientists. So, then, why do so many scientists take the impossible for granted? The answer is simple and rather sad. People tend to believe what they want to believe. Scientists, for all their claims of objectivity, are not exempt from this human failing. It seems that the urge to investigate (SETI comes to mind) and believe [in the alien DNA hypothesis] is almost religious. But many scientists believe in “visitors” in their own way. They see the impossibility of life originating by chance here on the earth, so they claim it must have drifted here from space. Some say that aliens seeded our planet with life by sending rockets loaded with primitive bacteria. One has even suggested that aliens visited our planet ages ago and that life originated by chance from the garbage they left behind! Some scientists draw conclusions from the evidence that simple organic molecules are fairly common in space. But is that really evidence for the chance formation of life? Is a hardware store evidence that a car must accidentally build itself there?Barb
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
06:16 PM
6
06
16
PM
PDT
nightlight @ 48, 52, 53 opines
The DI-ID’s “part time designer” is a hopelessly naive, incoherent position that a logical person like Valiant justifiably rejects.
While I agreed with a lot of your observations and opinions, I'm not so sure that a being with an IQ of let's say a billion would really need to intervene constantly in nature as a part-time designer. Perhaps, there might be more than one mechanism for introducing genetic change in organisms [gasp], especially given the demonstrated inefficiency and inadequacy of random mutation for generating viable genetic change. I mean the DNA and epigenetics would have been just sitting there, and having a IQ of a billion means that one could get bored pretty quickly, right? ;-) -QQuerius
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
06:03 PM
6
06
03
PM
PDT
selvaRajan @ 18 retaliated with
Scientists supporting YEC should also come clean and explain their real motive in supporting alternate cosmology hypothesis (electric universe, plasma cosmology, tired light, steady state etc.) which seek to confuse the common man – given the fact that the common man is already confused with an array of theories from main stream physicist
I believe God used supernatural means to bring creation into existence, and I have no trouble at all imagining that God used finely tuned natural means to extend and maintain it. However, I would challenge your assertion that the goal of Science is to prevent "the common man" from getting confused. Quarks are confusing. Space quantization of electrons is confusing. Heck, even quantum mechanics is confusing. ;-) I would also assume that "common" women are included as honorary men in your assertion. -QQuerius
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
04:56 PM
4
04
56
PM
PDT
Mark Frank @ 8 noted
Of course it [OOL] falls outside the theory of evolution. Evolution requires a system of heritable traits with random variation. This cannot be used to explain how the system arose in the first place.
Gosh, I've been told that evolution is defined as "change over time." Do you believe that DNA has changed over time?
Pascal’s wager! It is a fallacy. I don’t know the consequences if I am wrong. Maybe the creator gives lots of marks for intellectual honesty – even if it is misplaced – and I would get severely marked down for pretending to believe in something I didn’t believe in.
But everything in life has taught you that ignorance is not a good thing and rarely an acceptable excuse. So, how would Mark Frank, in good faith, go about learning about God's purposes and provisions, and the consequences of Mark's actions and attitudes? Once, I walked into class discovering that I was mistaken about the date of a mid-term by one week to the amusement of the professor. Eeeek! I had no choice but take it without studying. Through some perversity of probability, I got a good score that was a grade higher than my previous mid-term that I did study for. Still, I'm not totally sure I'd recommend this method . . . would you? ;-) -QQuerius
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
04:41 PM
4
04
41
PM
PDT
Hey, all. I'd just like to say that in my opinion, this has been an interesting, cogent, and civil discussion on points that many of us strongly disagree on. It was nice in that it shed more light than heat. Thank you! Jaceli123 @ 1 lamented
Its time Darwinists tell the world what’s really going on and what needs to be changed. I’m not in the mood to spend a hour of my day learning something thats not true. Im truly sick of it and it needs to stop now.
If it's any consolation, many people here, myself included, went through this process, too. I rationalized it by telling myself that I need to learn the consensus opinion. However, simply learning the vocabulary and theories in Science is not the same as "doing Science." Science is about creating models, useful tools that approximate Truth for a while. However, Scientific understanding is always changing and should never be confused with Truth. -QQuerius
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
04:14 PM
4
04
14
PM
PDT
Hi Mark Frank, Just a quick response, as i'm off to work in a minute. You write with regard to OOL:
Where’s even the beginnings of the detail? What being? When? How? What experiments or observations can a scientist make to evaluate this hypothesis?
While I was attending high school in the seventies, I recall reading about four OOL hypotheses: the primordial soup hypothesis, the "dry land" hypothesis (can't recall the details now, but I imagine it was something along the lines of clay crystals as the seed of life), panspermia (which we'd told had been discredited) and the hypothesis that life developed from space junk left by visiting aliens. The last hypothesis is hardly any more detailed than the ones I proposed, but I don't recall anyone criticizing it for that. In any case, if life were the product of a superior technology, you'd hardly expect details regarding how it was produced. On the other hand, I think we can investigate the questions of when and where it was produced. When? Just as soon as it could take hold without getting wiped out by meteorite bombardment. Where? In the safest place for it to grow and replicate. I'll be back later. Cheers.vjtorley
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
04:05 PM
4
04
05
PM
PDT
Mark: I was not saying that you should not come here to criticize ID. I was only reflecting on the meaning of the fact that most critics of ID here, like you, rely on philosophical arguments, rather than scientific ones, and that they criticize ID without really supporting the alternative explanations. Just a reflection. Regarding my proposed model of OOL, it was you who asked for possible details, and I have tried to answer. My scenario was one possible scenario of a design hypothesis, and like all possible scenarios of a design hypothesis it entails specific features that can, in principle, be verified empirically. For example, LUCA is an inference from what we see in the proteome, essentially. With the accumulation of biological knowledhe, for example, we could gain better understanding of when LUCA existed, or at least restrict the window very much. I am very confident that advances in both biology and geology will allow us to date the events in natural history much better than we can today, even very ancient events like those pertaining to OOL. Better chronological knowledge, and better understanding of the biological connections between proteomes, will allow much finer inferences. That LUCA is FUCA could be much more likely, after those inferences. Pursuing that line of thought could be more rewarding than pursuing RNA world fantasies. These are only suggestions. The point is, as soon as at least some scientists begin to take seriously the paradigm of biological design, many lines of inquiry, that are presently banned to scientific reasoning, will open themselves. And, obviously, those who believe in the neo darwinian paradigm will do well to go on experimenting on the RNA world. That's why the "controversy" is good. One of the two theories is probably true. Pursuing them both is the best line of action.gpuccio
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
02:55 PM
2
02
55
PM
PDT
@Optimus #41 "You sound a lot like Gregory..." Perhaps only in the similarity of the conclusion about Discovery Institute -- that DI is has done and is still doing great damage and disservice to the otherwise promising intelligent design approach to natural science (here is my previous comment to Gregory before he got censored). But we have followed entirely different path to arrive at a similar, negative evaluation of DI. Mine was from natural science (theoretical physics), while his was from the social sciences and philosophy. The intelligent design position will prevail, but not the supernatural version advocated by DI. What will prevail will be algorithmic formulation of intelligent design, as advocated by Valiant, James Shapiro, Stephen Wolfram,... etc with "intelligent agency" scientifically modeled as a computational process, not handwaved as some supernatural entity (hint, wink) poking its mighty finger into its creation, to fix it from time to time.nightlight
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
01:19 PM
1
01
19
PM
PDT
@jerry #49 -- The position is naive since it takes childish view of (presently known) "natural laws" as some sacred, immutable wisdom around which we need to bend to explain everything else. In fact, what we presently understand as "natural laws" is merely a transient approximation, capturing a bit of regularity in the universe. We don't know how small that captured bit is (compared to what is needed to explain what is observed), or how far off the target they may be. The DI's ID gives the epistemological categories, such as our present "natural laws", the ontological status, attributing them to the nature itself. From that faulty assumption it seeks to explain what else is needed, beyond nature, to explain what is happening, hence superantural being. DI's ID is thus an illustration of an old fallacy, confusing the map with the territory. In fact, nature most certainly doesn't compute what it does following our crude "natural laws" since the universe would fall apart into nothingness within a tiny fraction of a second if did, that's how coarse grained our natural laws are. Note also that the present "natural laws" themselves are probabilistic at their core, providing only the probabilities of various events, not which event will take place. But even to make that kind of fuzzy probabilistic prediction, requires still the vast amounts of additional data that are outside of natural laws and must be put in by hand to make probabilistic prediction -- the initial and boundary conditions of the system to which "natural laws" are applied. In other words, the "natural laws" are a tiny fraction, in terms of input data sizes, of what is needed to predict anything specific that goes on. For DI's ID to take this kind of very soft and fuzzy weak constraints as some rock solid, sharp boundary, no less than in "nature" itself, from which it can "deduce" the need for intervention beyond "natural laws" to explain observations is silly, being based on childishly naive view of science and natural laws. In fact, what Valiant's computational approach (which is similar to many others proposed before him, such as Wolfram's NKS, or James Shapiro's "natural genetic engineering" or SFI Complexity Science, or even earlier MIT Fredkin's "digital physics"... etc.) offers is far simpler, more coherent and more constructive path -- the laws of nature, along with the initial and boundary conditions (which is the totality of data needed to explaining anything specific) are computed numbers or values i.e. the nature behind the patterns captured by our current "natural laws" and "finely tuned" initial & boundary conditions are results of underlying computational process. The task of future science is then to reverse engineer this computational process and the algorithms it runs.nightlight
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
01:01 PM
1
01
01
PM
PDT
Nightlight @ 48 You sound a lot like Gregory...Optimus
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
12:51 PM
12
12
51
PM
PDT
UprightBiped,
The Space Shuttle follows the laws of chemistry and physics as well… but its origin is not explained by them. How do you make room for agent intervention as a real force in nature, and how do you balance your views to ensure that you do not discount that reality in preference to a speculation that can be foreever postulated, and therefore never brought to a test of its validity?
From materialists, you will never get a rational response to this simple and reasonable question. I am betting it is carefully avoided in this comment section.lifepsy
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
12:38 PM
12
12
38
PM
PDT
The DI-ID’s “part time designer” is a hopelessly naive, incoherent position
Why is it hooelessly naive and incoherent? This supposes that one knows better than this massive intelligence and are instructing this intelligence on how to do it right. As I said above such positions are folly.jerry
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
12:09 PM
12
12
09
PM
PDT
“Computer scientist Leslie Valiant celebrates Alan Turing as the progenitor of a third scientific revolution, potentially as profound as Newton’s and Einstein’s in transforming our understanding of the world. Why not a ‘fourth revolution’—why omit Darwin? Because, Valiant dares to say, Darwin’s theory is radically incomplete, and until it is equipped to make quantitative, verifiable predictions, evolution by natural selection cannot account for the complexity of living things and is not ‘more than a metaphor.
Valiant concedes to Darwinism far less than the Discovery Institute's ID does. Namely, the DI's ID grants Darwinism "micro-evolution" while denying that it explains "macro-evolution" i.e. DI-ID imagines universe with "intelligent agency" jumping in every now and then to help out the "natural laws" when they appear inadequate to the task "the agency" has set up. The DI-ID's "part time designer" is a hopelessly naive, incoherent position that a logical person like Valiant justifiably rejects. For him Darwinism is a metaphor which doesn't explain, in scientific sense, anything at all, micro- or macro-evolution.nightlight
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
11:52 AM
11
11
52
AM
PDT
Mr Frank, "If an unexpected foundation-shaking paradigm shift can occur in a "hard" science like chemistry, where findings can be checked by observation and experiment, how confident can evolutionists be that their theories about the unobservable past? ...In recent years, major problems have surfaced in evolutionary theory: the overthrow of "junk DNA," the discovery of codes within codes, the intransigence of the Cambrian enigma to name a few. Yet its advocates continue to bully anyone who doesn't toe the line. Darwinism acts like a religion, not science. If Darwinists were proper scientists, they would embrace the new discoveries that break their rules. They would gladly follow the mounting evidence that points in a new direction for the biology of the 21st century -- intelligent design." (If Chemistry Can Be Wrong, How Much More Evolutionary Theory? January 3, 2014) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/01/if_chemistry_ca080711.htmlbornagain77
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
11:35 AM
11
11
35
AM
PDT
MF:
Science, as you know, welcomes it.
Evolutionism does not welcome criticism. And you cannot reference this alleged modern evolutionary theory- meaning it is difficult to discuss the details of something that doesn't exist.Joe
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
10:12 AM
10
10
12
AM
PDT
Mr. Frank claims "Science, as you know, welcomes it "criticism"". Mr. Frank, Can you please forward your 'science welcomes criticism' sentiment to Nagel? Nagel was immediately set on and (symbolically) beaten to death by all the leading punks, bullies, and hangers-on of the philosophical underworld.,,, The intelligentsia was so furious that it formed a lynch mob. In May 2013, the Chronicle of Higher Education ran a piece called “Where Thomas Nagel Went Wrong.” One paragraph was notable: Whatever the validity of [Nagel’s] stance, its timing was certainly bad. The war between New Atheists and believers has become savage, with Richard Dawkins writing sentences like, “I have described atonement, the central doctrine of Christianity, as vicious, sadomasochistic, and repellent. We should also dismiss it as barking mad….” In that climate, saying anything nice at all about religion is a tactical error. It’s the cowardice of the Chronicle’s statement that is alarming—as if the only conceivable response to a mass attack by killer hyenas were to run away. Nagel was assailed; almost everyone else ran.bornagain77
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
10:01 AM
10
10
01
AM
PDT
Mark Frank, how would we get evidence supporting abiogenesis? All current geological evidence points to life already being in existence when the first sedimentary rocks formed 3.8 billion years ago as soon as Earth cooled down enough for them to form. All geological evidence before that time has long melted away. There just isn't any geological record for the time period where the first life would have formed from nonliving material. So there is no way to test any hypothesis for abiogenesis. Now abiogenesis may be a perfectly respectable persuit in natural philosophy, but it is not science and should not be presented as much. It is the equivalent of arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.Jeff M
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
10:01 AM
10
10
01
AM
PDT
MF,
You are right that it is a problem to come up with a definitive proof of what happened billions of years ago. But it is not impossible. Events have consequences and leave traces and they conform to laws of physics and chemistry.
The Space Shuttle follows the laws of chemistry and physics as well... but its origin is not explained by them. How do you make room for agent intervention as a real force in nature, and how do you balance your views to ensure that you do not discount that reality in preference to a speculation that can be foreever postulated, and therefore never brought to a test of its validity?Upright BiPed
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
10:01 AM
10
10
01
AM
PDT
Antagonize is a strange word. Do you mean criticise? Does ID not welcome criticism? Science, as you know, welcomes it.
I've welcomed your criticism. I think I get along well with you when we aren't talking matters philosophical, but statistical. Thank you for your many comments at UD. Salscordova
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
09:54 AM
9
09
54
AM
PDT
#31 Gpuccio
You are a very reasonable opponent, and you yourself admit that you are “not sufficiently expert in evolution to dispute the issue”. And you would probably admit that no OOL theory is even near to some credible explanation. And yet, you do come here and in other places essentially to antagonize (although in a very civil way) ID.
Antagonize is a strange word. Do you mean criticise? Does ID  not welcome criticism? Science, as you know, welcomes it. I am not sufficiently expert to discuss the details of modern evolutionary theory. But I think I am as qualified as most people to criticise ID as a theory of OOL and development of life – because the problems are philosophical and statistical, not scientific. No OOL theory is near to a credible explanation as far as I know, and no scientist I know is claiming it does – but that does not make a sudden assemblage of inorganic material credible or even an explanation.Mark Frank
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
09:44 AM
9
09
44
AM
PDT
J1: You are citing prof Richard Lewontin of Harvard, in the same 1997 review of Sagan's last book in NYRB that I have cited, on the foot in the door matter. KFkairosfocus
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
09:37 AM
9
09
37
AM
PDT
MF: The OP was about how scientists should “come clean” which implies they are hiding something. What are they expected to do about the OOL? There is no proof that the OOL cannot be investigated scientifically as there is in the case of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. What can they can do except try to find explanations (or possibly proofs that it is inaccessible). As long as they don’t pretend they have the answer – and in the case of OOL they don’t – this doesn’t amount to hiding anything. What more can they do?
Thank you for your response. I hope they keep doing research because it's the perpetual failure of the evolutionist enterprise that make me convinced ID is true. From the failure of Urey-Miller, Foxes proteinoids, to Lenski's lab evolution to Weasel, there is abundant evidence naturalistic explanations will fail. That has been demonstrated in the lab and field quite well... What they should do however is stop insisting they've proven anything worth putting in textbooks or barring respectable scientists like evolutionary biologist Richard Sternberg, Dean Kenyon, or any other scientist from the academy for holding dissenting views. They aren't being straight with the public about how badly their actual results have fared and how their results are at variance with naturalistic claims. If they can't repeat the evolution of life in the lab, then just like supernatural explanations, it would seem evolutionism is not science, it's actual worse because it is incoherent. They ought to be advocating this disclaimer more frequently:
In science’s pecking order, evolutionary biology lurks somewhere near the bottom, far closer to phrenology than to physics. Jerry Coyne
or this one
I am quite conscious that my speculations run quite beyond the bounds of true science Charles Darwin
That's coming clean. I am curious however, do you have an opinion on Koonin's logic of chance. Do you believe multiverses count as an explanation but God as inferred by quantum mechanics cannot?scordova
January 3, 2014
January
01
Jan
3
03
2014
09:36 AM
9
09
36
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5

Leave a Reply