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JDK argues against objective morality—by assuming the truth of objective morality.

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Moral subjectivists never fail to entertain me when they try to make their philosophy seem reasonable and workable. UD commentator jdk, for example, doesn’t seem to realize how often his unstated assumptions undermine – or even nullify – the very points he is trying to make.

In one exchange, he denies the existence of objective morality, but he does say, nevertheless, that he “judges” murder to be wrong – not objectively wrong – but wrong in the sense that a moral judgment is a subjective act. So I asked him to explain why he “judges” murder to be wrong. He graciously (and courageously) answered the question , and I now follow with my analysis:

JDK: [I judge that murder is wrong] because my mature sense of love, compassion, and empathy for other human beings is such that I desire for them as much right to life as I desire for myself.

I admire the altruistic impulse that informs this comment, but I must begin with a qualifying question: How do you know that your sense of love, compassion, and empathy is “mature” unless there is some objective moral standard to differentiate between a mature sense and an immature sense?

According to the objective standard, mature love (Agape) involves an element of making sacrifices for the other, whereas immature love (Eros) is based simply on feelings and the thrill of being pleased by the other. Subjectivism, however, does not make these kinds of distinctions and cannot, therefore, identify what is mature and what is not.

To truly judge the act of murder, it is not enough to express wishes and desires. One must consider principled reasons why potential victims are entitled to live – what is it about them or their nature that gives them that right? – and why murderers deserve to be punished – what is it about their act that demands satisfaction? Subjective morality cannot even begin to address those issues.

JDK: I also recognize the benefits to society in general for a safe social structure that allows everyone to have a reasonable opportunity to become as well-developed human beings as they can, again motivated by a sense of connection to my fellow human beings through emotions such as love, compassion, and empathy.

Again, you have stepped into the arena of objective morality. In order to know what benefits society, one must first know what is good for society. Among other things, the good of survival is connected to the good of procreating the species, which in turn, is connected to the good of forming communities, all of which are objectively good benefits because they are consistent with man’s social nature. This all makes perfect sense.

Subjective morality, on the other hand, does not recognize natural goods or natural rights, or natural obligations. Thus, it cannot address the subject of what “benefits” society. That is why it is so dangerous. (Moral subjectivism is more than just an exercise in irrational thinking. When humans try to fashion their own morality, an immoral culture of misery and death always follows. If objective morality doesn’t exist, then the moral code [and the civil law derived from it] is whatever those who are in power want it to be, and they want what is good for them, always at the expense of everyone else).

Moving forward, how do you know when humans are “well-developed” unless you acknowledge some objective standard that determines when they reach that threshold? The question that cannot be avoided is: “Well developed compared to what?

Are humans well developed if they possess love, compassion, and empathy but lack persistence, courage, and loyalty? Objective morality answers that question with a firm no: a well-developed human being is one that has cultivated both the soft and the hard virtues. Subjective morality doesn’t even recognize virtues as virtues. Yet you pay a quiet tribute at least to the soft virtues (empathy etc.), which are objective in nature, though you shrug them off as mere “emotions.”

Further, if there are no “shoulds” then why do you imply that society should have a safe social structure? Isn’t it because a safe society is an objectively good situation to be aimed for and an unsafe society is an objectively bad situation to be avoided?

JDK: In part, I desire such a society because I know that I and the ones I most closely love and care about can’t have a reasonable maximum of happiness and satisfaction with our being in an unhealthy society, so I have a interest in everyone having somewhat the same opportunities I do.

Once again, you are appealing to objective standards by assuming that happiness is a good thing for humans and that a healthy society is an objectively good thing in itself. Even in the physical realm, there is a difference between the perception of good health, based on subjective appearances, and the confirmation of good health, measured by objective medical standards.

In spite of yourself, you recognize the self-evident truth that objective morality exists, both at the individual and societal level. So much so, that even in the process of denying it you end up confirming it against your will.

Comments
JDK, “The only reason you think that is because you think those objective standards exist” Ahh no! I just hate intellectual dishonesty in all it shapes and forms. If I did not think objective standards existed I would hope I would be intellectually honest enough to follow what SB wrote in # 2. Please read that again to see what I mean. So no that is not the only reason. Vividvividbleau
June 6, 2018
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I don't. Just because I use words like good, and health, and beneficial, doesn't mean that I am invoking objective standards. The only reason you think that is because you think those objective standards exist. But I'm not responsible for tailoring my language to your assumptions. When I say something is good, I'm applying a whole complex of ideas, knowledge, chosen values to that judgment. It's a human choice: subjective if you will, but coming from a educated, responsible, humane human being. And that's all there is: there is no objective standards to fall back on. This is free will at work. These are my choices. The word "good" only means "good in respect to some objective standards" to those who believe in those standards. To those who don't, it means "good in respect to my overall understanding of who I am, as internally experienced, and who human beings are." As I have said, I know the rejoinder is that therefore anything goes, might makes right, etc., but experience shows us that is false. There are forces (genetic, personal, social) that focus most people's sense of goodness around a common core. I'm not going to re-quote myself, but see #33 for more thoughts on this.jdk
June 6, 2018
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seversky
You have distinguished mature from immature love here and given what I assume are traditional grounds for making such a distinction, but you haven’t explained why we should consider them to be objective.
Virtue, by definition, is an objective moral concept - a good habit acquired through practice. In order to know what virtue really is, we need an objective standard, such as the Golden Mean, to make that determination. Subjectivism doesn’t recognize a Golden Mean because it doesn’t recognize extremes.StephenB
June 6, 2018
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I should have said. “I think its at least one of the questions SB is asking” Vividvividbleau
June 6, 2018
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JDK I think your missing SBs point. It doesn’t matter that you reject SB’s position regarding the existence of objective morality. Heck SB may even grant you that for the sake of argument. It doesn’t matter because SB is asking an entirely different question. “but you have not responded to the major theme of this thread, namely that fact that you assume the truth of objective morality when you argue” JDK why do you assume the truth of objective morality when you argue? Thats the question SB is asking. Vividvividbleau
June 6, 2018
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Stephen, you write "What you wrote on previous threads is irrelevant because you didn’t address the present topic" What you wrote in the OP is just one example after another of the basic issue: your belief that one cannot make an normative statement, be it about love, health, benefits to society, etc., without invoking the reality of there being objective standards to which those statements must relate. It is this assumption that I disagree with, and it is this issue that I have made some remarks about in past threads, (and quoted again in 33). Therefore, addressing each one of your points separately in pointless, as it is the same issue over and over again. And I'll note that you don't actually respond to this main point, as I wrote in 33: if there is not any moral component to the universe, no objective standards, no God, then all that you invoke in your arguments is irrelevant, no matter how many uses of normative language you apply it to.jdk
June 6, 2018
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Stephen, I can assure you that you, and all my conversations here, are not anywhere close to being important enough for me to be outraged about! :-)jdk
June 6, 2018
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jdk @ 24:
Different things. I can explain why I think someone is wrong without claiming that what I have offered is a logical refutation. Logical arguments include assumptions, and one can disagree with the assumptions, at which point further logical arguments based on those assumptions are not very relevant: it is the assumptions that are at issue.
If you can refute the assumptions themselves, you've made a contradiction of their argument at a deeper level, i.e. you've offered an even stronger logical refutation. Unless what you're standing on is the subjectivity of axiomatic choices; in which case you're expanding your appeal to "subjective logic". @ 31:
...that any use of normative language implies some objective referent, and that unimpeded logic is the tool by which disagreements are settled. Any argument that this is otherwise, by referring to value and differing metaphysical assumptions, is dismissed as subjective, and the first step on a very slippery slope to inevitable nihilism.
It isn't nihilism necessarily, but fanaticism that one slides into without considering the meta. You can assert an ambiguity between a set of axiomatic bases, but you still need to support your assertion, by stepping into the meta and making objective claims there; otherwise it reduces to a vacuous appeal to subjectivity. Pure unblemished agnosticism means not having to say you're wrong. Or right. Or anybody else is either. Or anything, really.LocalMinimum
June 6, 2018
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Mung @37, thank you. Yes, my adversaries are outraged that I would violate the very same tenets of objective morality that they claim do not exist (even as they prove that they don't believe what they claim). As the first sentence of my post reads, "Moral subjectivists never fail to entertain me when they try to make their philosophy seem reasonable and workable.StephenB
June 6, 2018
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jdk
Stephen quotes me as saying: “You have an unwarranted dogmatic belief that the metaphysics you offer is the only valid metaphysics possible.” (This was addressed to kf, I think, but it applies to Stephen.
Ad hominem arguments are not persuasive. *Stephen is dogmatic,* *Stephen is dogmatic,* *Stephen is dogmatic* does not refute *JDK argues against objective morality - by assuming the truth of objective morality.*
So I’ll say again, if there is no “objective” metaphysical nature of the universe which includes the idea of morality, then all of Stephen’s argument are for naught. I disagree with his assumption that this exists.
I don't think you are getting it. The argument is not that Stephen assumes that objective morality exists. The argument is that JDK assumes that objective morality exists (and doesn't even know it).
So now I’m going to do what I’ve been resisting: quote from previous threads. In the “responding to sev moral claims” thread I wrote to Stephen:
What you wrote on previous threads is irrelevant because you didn't address the present topic.StephenB
June 6, 2018
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I am just laughing and shaking my head. Statement after statement of implied moral ought and obligation. Nothing to see here folks. Move long.Mung
June 6, 2018
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Allan Keith:
I have followed these different threads and I don’t recall jdk claiming to have refuted anyone on this subject.
So?Mung
June 6, 2018
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jdk:
Please represent me accurately.
Because that would make you happy, and we ought to, in fact we have a moral obligation to, make you happy? This is getting tedious.Mung
June 6, 2018
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Nice thread StephenB. The problem is immediately apparent.Mung
June 6, 2018
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Seversky:
You have distinguished mature from immature love here and given what I assume are traditional grounds for making such a distinction, but you haven’t explained why we should consider them to be objective.
So? Are you saying he ought to do that, that he has some moral obligation to do that? Help me out here guys. What do these ever present implicit oughts and obligations you keep insisting on inserting into the conversation arise from?Mung
June 6, 2018
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jdk:
Any interested parties (of which there are probably none) can read them if they wish.
I just want to know why I ought to read them. Is there some moral obligation present that I am missing out on? ETA: It would make you happy if I read them, therefore I ought to read them?Mung
June 6, 2018
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It's the objective moral code of whatever makes me happy.Mung
June 6, 2018
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Stephen quotes me as saying: "You have an unwarranted dogmatic belief that the metaphysics you offer is the only valid metaphysics possible." (This was addressed to kf, I think, but it applies to Stephen. So I'll say again, if there is no "objective" metaphysical nature of the universe which includes the idea of morality, then all of Stephen's argument are for naught. I disagree with his assumption that this exists. So now I'm going to do what I've been resisting: quote from previous threads. In the "responding to sev moral claims" thread I wrote to Stephen:
Stephen B, read 4 and 12: human values come from our biological nature, and some are universal enough that we might claim objective knowledge of them, but that is knowledge of human beings, not knowledge of some unseen aspect of the universe. So just point to people using the language of ought is not evidence that ought is part of the universe. Also, at 38 on the Sev, JDK thread, I wrote,
What you or anyone thinks, irrespective of whether your reasoning seems logically impeccable to you, has no effect on how the world really is. If there is no God, and no moral component to the universe, then that’s the way it is, and your belief that it is otherwise is irrelevant. That may lead to conclusions about human beings that you find totally unacceptable, but the universe doesn’t care about your feelings, or what you think is irrefutable logic.
What you provided is not evidence that there is connection between humankind's moral nature and some moral nature of the universe. Likewise, the fact that the lack of such a moral nature of the universe might lead to things we here would all agree are horrible is not evidence of a moral nature to the universe. As the quote above says, if that's the way it is then we just have to do the best we can with the human nature we've got. Tough if you don't like: what you like is not an argument.
That's not a "refutation". That a statement that I don't agree with his assumption about the nature of the universe. This is an issue that is beyond logic, because it's undecidable by any evidence. We can both provide reasons why we think our respective assumptions are correct, but we can't prove they are correct. We can share our thoughts and try to be an influence on other people's judgments, but ultimately each person as to choose the big picture notions that they think are best for them to live by. (Allan wrote some good posts about that.)jdk
June 6, 2018
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jdk,
This is, as I have said, bogus philosophy.
And, by use of the word "IS", you are making an objective claim about truth. But you have said that there is no objective truth. :) :) :)Allan Keith
June 6, 2018
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Interesting. Origenes point is another example of the critical issue here, to which I dissent: that any use of normative language implies some objective referent, and that unimpeded logic is the tool by which disagreements are settled. Any argument that this is otherwise, by referring to value and differing metaphysical assumptions, is dismissed as subjective, and the first step on a very slippery slope to inevitable nihilism. This is, as I have said, bogus philosophy.jdk
June 6, 2018
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JDK @28 Stop moving the goalposts jdk. Your claim (#5) that you have provided "essential reasons" why Stephen is "wrong" boils down to a claim of having refuted Stephen.Origenes
June 6, 2018
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jdk (today)
And, as I’ve said (repeating myself) I’ve written quite a bit recent posts that have my name, AK’s name, and/or Sev’s name in the title. I’m not going to go back and look them up: you can if you wish.
Jdk (on kf's May 28 thread)
I have done this before, and am not going to do it again, especially because of the point I am trying to make here, which is that you have an unwarranted dogmatic belief that the metaphysics you offer is the only valid metaphysics possible.
Is that what you mean when you say you "have done this before?" I read much of what was on those threads, and I could not find any response that is remotely related to the subject matter that I have brought up in this post. By the way, I could have written another post on Allan Keith using his own quotes (as I used yours) to make the same case against him. Apparently, the only defense subjectivists can muster is this: "You are a dogmatist, and I am open minded." Isn't that about it. Three cheers for seversky, who at least had a go at it. Hopefully, I will get a chance to address more of his comments later today.StephenB
June 6, 2018
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No. I can provide essential reasons for something (why we should provide easily available, inexpensive contraceptives, for example) without "refuting" someone who thinks we shouldn't. And I provided links to three recent discussions. I'm not going to do the work of sorting out the various posts: go read my (and AK's and Sev's) posts on those threads if you want.jdk
June 6, 2018
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JDK @24
jdk: Different things. I can explain why I think someone is wrong without claiming that what I have offered is a logical refutation.
Moving goal posts. You have written that you have provided "essential reasons" why Stephen is "wrong." No matter how you spin it, this boils down to the claim that you have refuted Stephen. Now you say that your "essential reasons" are not a logical refutation. Well, that is pretty irrelevant, since no one, certainly not Barry, has made any claims about your "essential reasons". They may be logical or otherwise, we have no way of knowing since you still refuse to link to them.Origenes
June 6, 2018
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jdk,
And, as I’ve said (repeating myself) I’ve written quite a bit recent posts that have my name, AK’s name, and/or Sev’s name in the title. I’m not going to go back and look them up: you can if you wish.
I'm beginning to think that there would be no opinion pieces written here if it weren't for idk, Sev and myself. We should be asking for royalties. :)Allan Keith
June 6, 2018
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Barry,
Rather than even attempt to address Stephen’s argument, JDK insists on arguing that he has already refuted it in some nameless posts that he refuses to link to.
I have followed these different threads and I don't recall jdk claiming to have refuted anyone on this subject.Allan Keith
June 6, 2018
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Different things. I can explain why I think someone is wrong without claiming that what I have offered is a logical refutation. Logical arguments include assumptions, and one can disagree with the assumptions, at which point further logical arguments based on those assumptions are not very relevant: it is the assumptions that are at issue.jdk
June 6, 2018
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jdk #5: Wrong. There are other things I’ve written about essential reasons why Stephen et al are wrong over in the past couple threads that had my name and Sev’s in them.
Barry Arrington #21: JDK insists on arguing that he has already refuted it in some nameless posts that he refuses to link to.
jdk #22: I did not claim that I had refuted Stephen. All I said is that I’ve written lots lately because this subject has been the topic of multiple posts. Please represent me accurately.
Origenes
June 6, 2018
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I did not claim that I had refuted Stephen. All I said is that I've written lots lately because this subject has been the topic of multiple posts. Please represent me accurately. The subject has come up, and moved along, from these three threads. https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/responding-to-sev-moral-claims-are-not-about-what-is-but-about-how-we-ought-to-behave-primarily-towards-one-another-they-are-not-capable-of-being-either-true-or-false/ https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/sev-jdk-the-value-of-philosophy-esp-metaphysics-and-addressing-the-intersubjective-consensus-challenge/ https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/and-now-for-something-completely-different-darwinian-pz-myers-laments-the-sad-state-of-atheism-today/jdk
June 6, 2018
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Stephen's exchange with jdk in this thread is kind of amusing and really sad at the same time. Rather than even attempt to address Stephen's argument, JDK insists on arguing that he has already refuted it in some nameless posts that he refuses to link to. Again, JDK, a single link will show you right. I won't hold my breath.Barry Arrington
June 6, 2018
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