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JDK argues against objective morality—by assuming the truth of objective morality.

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Moral subjectivists never fail to entertain me when they try to make their philosophy seem reasonable and workable. UD commentator jdk, for example, doesn’t seem to realize how often his unstated assumptions undermine – or even nullify – the very points he is trying to make.

In one exchange, he denies the existence of objective morality, but he does say, nevertheless, that he “judges” murder to be wrong – not objectively wrong – but wrong in the sense that a moral judgment is a subjective act. So I asked him to explain why he “judges” murder to be wrong. He graciously (and courageously) answered the question , and I now follow with my analysis:

JDK: [I judge that murder is wrong] because my mature sense of love, compassion, and empathy for other human beings is such that I desire for them as much right to life as I desire for myself.

I admire the altruistic impulse that informs this comment, but I must begin with a qualifying question: How do you know that your sense of love, compassion, and empathy is “mature” unless there is some objective moral standard to differentiate between a mature sense and an immature sense?

According to the objective standard, mature love (Agape) involves an element of making sacrifices for the other, whereas immature love (Eros) is based simply on feelings and the thrill of being pleased by the other. Subjectivism, however, does not make these kinds of distinctions and cannot, therefore, identify what is mature and what is not.

To truly judge the act of murder, it is not enough to express wishes and desires. One must consider principled reasons why potential victims are entitled to live – what is it about them or their nature that gives them that right? – and why murderers deserve to be punished – what is it about their act that demands satisfaction? Subjective morality cannot even begin to address those issues.

JDK: I also recognize the benefits to society in general for a safe social structure that allows everyone to have a reasonable opportunity to become as well-developed human beings as they can, again motivated by a sense of connection to my fellow human beings through emotions such as love, compassion, and empathy.

Again, you have stepped into the arena of objective morality. In order to know what benefits society, one must first know what is good for society. Among other things, the good of survival is connected to the good of procreating the species, which in turn, is connected to the good of forming communities, all of which are objectively good benefits because they are consistent with man’s social nature. This all makes perfect sense.

Subjective morality, on the other hand, does not recognize natural goods or natural rights, or natural obligations. Thus, it cannot address the subject of what “benefits” society. That is why it is so dangerous. (Moral subjectivism is more than just an exercise in irrational thinking. When humans try to fashion their own morality, an immoral culture of misery and death always follows. If objective morality doesn’t exist, then the moral code [and the civil law derived from it] is whatever those who are in power want it to be, and they want what is good for them, always at the expense of everyone else).

Moving forward, how do you know when humans are “well-developed” unless you acknowledge some objective standard that determines when they reach that threshold? The question that cannot be avoided is: “Well developed compared to what?

Are humans well developed if they possess love, compassion, and empathy but lack persistence, courage, and loyalty? Objective morality answers that question with a firm no: a well-developed human being is one that has cultivated both the soft and the hard virtues. Subjective morality doesn’t even recognize virtues as virtues. Yet you pay a quiet tribute at least to the soft virtues (empathy etc.), which are objective in nature, though you shrug them off as mere “emotions.”

Further, if there are no “shoulds” then why do you imply that society should have a safe social structure? Isn’t it because a safe society is an objectively good situation to be aimed for and an unsafe society is an objectively bad situation to be avoided?

JDK: In part, I desire such a society because I know that I and the ones I most closely love and care about can’t have a reasonable maximum of happiness and satisfaction with our being in an unhealthy society, so I have a interest in everyone having somewhat the same opportunities I do.

Once again, you are appealing to objective standards by assuming that happiness is a good thing for humans and that a healthy society is an objectively good thing in itself. Even in the physical realm, there is a difference between the perception of good health, based on subjective appearances, and the confirmation of good health, measured by objective medical standards.

In spite of yourself, you recognize the self-evident truth that objective morality exists, both at the individual and societal level. So much so, that even in the process of denying it you end up confirming it against your will.

Comments
According to Seversky, subjective morality can judge murder. "It proceeds from the imagined suffering of the victim and the observed grief of the victim’s family and friends" he writes. Seversky, does subjective morality say anything about suffering and grief? Or is it neutral on this issues? If subjective morality is neutral on suffering — suffering is neither good nor bad —, then how does subjective morality proceed towards judgment?Origenes
June 6, 2018
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SB: Subjective morality cannot judge murder. seversky
Of course it can. It proceeds from the imagined suffering of the victim and the observed grief of the victim’s family and friends.
Subjective morality cannot explain why the victim is entitled to live or why the murderer deserves to be punished.StephenB
June 5, 2018
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jdk
Did you read any of the opening posts by kf? He continually makes the point that to make any “ought” statement whatsoever relies on accepting “ought” at the world root level. Do you ever read his stuff?
The difference is that my theme discusses unconscious acceptance, is example oriented, and focuses exclusively on your description of judging morality, as opposed to kf's stated philosophy. Also, I deal with the subject of moral hierarchies, scales, and contiuums where kf does not.StephenB
June 5, 2018
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seversky
There is no requirement for an objective morality here, just the capacity to compare the current moral stance with one held in the past so as to note how it has evolved over time.
Oh, but there *is* a requirement for objective morality. If love is “mature,” then, by definition, it is of a higher form than immature love. Unless there is an objective standard that defines the highest form of love and the lower forms of love, then the phrase “mature love” is meaningless. Evolution has nothing to do with it because a higher form of love can precede a lower form of love. People don't automatically become more loving over time, they often become less loving. The issue is whether or not a hierarchy of love forms exist. JDK assumed, unwittingly, that such a hierarchy does exist when he used the word "mature."StephenB
June 5, 2018
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Did you read any of the opening posts by kf? He continually makes the point that to make any "ought" statement whatsoever relies on accepting "ought" at the world root level. Do you ever read his stuff?jdk
June 5, 2018
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jdk
SB, I read your post. Nothing new there.
That is simply not true. No one has raised the issues I raised.
And, as I’ve said (repeating myself) I’ve written quite a bit recent posts that have my name, AK’s name, and/or Sev’s name in the title. I’m not going to go back and look them up: you can if you wish.
I did go back. I could find no one who wrote on this particular topic.StephenB
June 5, 2018
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I admire the altruistic impulse that informs this comment, but I must begin with a qualifying question: How do you know that your sense of love, compassion, and empathy is “mature” unless there is some objective moral standard to differentiate between a mature sense and an immature sense?
There is no requirement for an objective morality here, just the capacity to compare the current moral stance with one held in the past so as to note how it has evolved over time.
According to the objective standard, mature love (Agape) involves an element of making sacrifices for the other, whereas immature love (Eros) is based simply on feelings and the thrill of being pleased by the other. Subjectivism, however, does not make these kinds of distinctions and cannot, therefore, identify what is mature and what is not.
You have distinguished mature from immature love here and given what I assume are traditional grounds for making such a distinction, but you haven't explained why we should consider them to be objective. As previously, it's possible to make comparative judgments that do not depend on objective standards.
To truly judge the act of murder, it is not enough to express wishes and desires. One must consider principled reasons why potential victims are entitled to live – what is it about them or their nature that gives them that right? – and why murderers deserve to be punished – what is it about their act that demands satisfaction? Subjective morality cannot even begin to address those issues.
Of course it can. It proceeds from the imagined suffering of the victim and the observed grief of the victim's family and friends. None of us would wish to experience that nor would we wish it on others. In other words, empathy is probably the strongest and surest foundation for any morality. We also take into consideration the fact that it is beyond our power to restore a life once it has been taken and that, if there is no afterlife, then that is the greatest harm one person can do to another. That someone could commit such an act with impunity is an outrageous affront to any sense of fairness and justice.
Again, you have stepped into the arena of objective morality. In order to know what benefits society, one must first know what is good for society. Among other things, the good of survival is connected to the good of procreating the species, which in turn, is connected to the good of forming communities, all of which are objectively good benefits because they are consistent with man’s social nature. This all makes perfect sense.
Social benefits are what members of a society individually and in concert judge them to be based on their own self-interests. Like everyone else, I want to survive for as long as I can and to have the means to do so in as comfortable and secure an environment as possible. I see no need to justify that belief nor do I require it of others but I will respect the interests of others in return for their respecting mine.
Subjective morality, on the other hand, does not recognize natural goods or natural rights, or natural obligations.
Natural rights like natural moral law are just another way of asserting without justification the existence of objective morality.
Thus, it cannot address the subject of what “benefits” society
Of course it can. See above.
(Moral subjectivism is more than just an exercise in irrational thinking. When humans try to fashion their own morality, an immoral culture of misery and death always follows. If objective morality doesn’t exist, then the moral code [and the civil law derived from it] is whatever those who are in power want it to be, and they want what is good for them, always at the expense of everyone else).
Oh, please. Human beings are fallible creatures and easily corrupted by wealth and power. People have done great harm to their fellows in the name of both religious beliefs and political ideologies, in many cases apparently convinced that they are acting on behalf of some Absolute (and, hence, objective) Truth. You fly planes into buildings if you are convinced that is what your god requires of you and that you will be rewarded for it in an eternal afterlife. You don't do it if you doubt that sort of thing is true.
In spite of yourself, you recognize the self-evident truth that objective morality exists, both at the individual and societal level. So much so, that even in the process of denying it you end up confirming it against your will.
Okay, for the sake of argument, let's assume that an objective morality exists. By claiming it is objective you are asserting that it exists somewhere and in some form other than as ideals held in the minds of their adherents. So where is it? How is it stored? Is it encrypted in the human genome? Is it some sort of energy field like the Higgs field? Is it some sort of quantum phenomenon? In other words, you do realize that if it influences the way we behave in some way, if it is therefore some sort of causally-efficacious objective phenomenon then we should be able to detect it in some way other than just our subjective moral preferences? I don't acknowledge that self-evident truths exist in any universal sense nor do I recognize the existence of an objective morality. What I do see is the old story of people attempting to annex the moral high ground by claiming that their preferred morality is the objective one. The danger with that position is that there is an inherent temptation to impose that morality - by force if necessary - for the supposed god of all. And we all know where that sort of thinking leads.Seversky
June 5, 2018
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SB, I read your post. Nothing new there. And, as I've said (repeating myself) I've written quite a bit recent posts that have my name, AK's name, and/or Sev's name in the title. I'm not going to go back and look them up: you can if you wish.jdk
June 5, 2018
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"Barry, I've written a lot about this topic here lately." In all sincerity, I would really like to know about it if that is the case. A single reference or link would suffice. Perhaps you wrote about a related issue rather than this particular issue. It would help if you read my post.StephenB
June 5, 2018
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Barry
Allow me to translate jdk’s comment at 5 from materialist-speak into plain English. His comment translates roughly (I’m going for a dynamic equivalency here) to: “I’ve got nuthin.”
Barry, I am surprised that jdk doesn't realize that his unwillingness to address the topic will only diminish his credibility. Just for the record, no one has raised this issue as far as I know. Since jdk has obviously not read my post, he cannot possibly know the substance of my claims.StephenB
June 5, 2018
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SB: “That is a new point” jdk
Nope its the same old argument that has been repeated here ad infinitum.
Please provide evidence for your claims so that I can evaluate it.StephenB
June 5, 2018
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Barry, I've written a lot about this topic here lately. I have no idea whether you have read any of it, and I know you would not accept any of it anyway. It's "nuthin'" to you, but that is not my problem.jdk
June 5, 2018
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Stephen writes, "That is a new point" Nope its the same old argument that has been repeated here ad infinitum.jdk
June 5, 2018
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Stephen, Allow me to translate jdk's comment at 5 from materialist-speak into plain English. His comment translates roughly (I'm going for a dynamic equivalency here) to: "I've got nuthin."Barry Arrington
June 5, 2018
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jdk
Wrong. There are other things I’ve written about essential reasons why Stephen et al are wrong over in the past couple threads that had my name and Sev’s in them. Any interested parties (of which there are probably none) can read them if they wish.
That is not true. You have responded to the subject that vivid covered on this thread, and my response to him, but you have not responded to the major theme of this thread, namely that fact that you assume the truth of objective morality when you argue. That is a new point. I would not write a new post and cover the same old material. Obviously, you have not read it. If you want to weigh in, I will provide courteous and honest responses. However, you cannot expect to be taken seriously if you just fly in, say "wrong," and fly back out.StephenB
June 5, 2018
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Wrong. There are other things I've written about essential reasons why Stephen et al are wrong over in the past couple threads that had my name and Sev's in them. Any interested parties (of which there are probably none) can read them if they wish.jdk
June 5, 2018
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vivid, I think that all three of your points are relevant. I would even add a fourth. Philosophy, as a separate study, has been corrupt for centuries. The academy cranks out second rate minds that could have been first rate minds if their teachers had been wise. Traditional philosophy, which includes thinkers like Plato, Aristotle, Augustine, and Aquinas, makes people smarter; postmodernist philosophy, which builds on the disastrous concepts promoted by Descartes, Hume, Kant, and Rorty, makes people stupid.StephenB
June 5, 2018
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SB “the honest subjectivist would say, “I don’t think murder is immoral (which means objectively moral) but I find it very, very, very distasteful. Still, I am not going to abuse the language by redefining the worlds “bad,” “evil,” “good,” “moral,” or “immoral” in attempt to have it both ways. Those things don’t exist. The universe just is and it has no moral component, nor does any of its creatures.” That is the kind of transparency I would hope for.” For me the question becomes why dont they just say that? Im down with that, they may be right we may be wrong. Off the top of my head I can think of three reasons. 1) They know inside them that right, wrong, good, evil, do objectively exist and furthermore act as such. 2) They cannot cope with the logical implications of their position. 3) They cannot allow the Divine foot in the door, they just cannot. Vividvividbleau
June 5, 2018
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vivid. I agree. In the context of your point, the honest subjectivist would say, "I don't think murder is immoral (which means objectively moral) but I find it very, very, very distasteful. Still, I am not going to abuse the language by redefining the worlds "bad," "evil," "good," "moral," or "immoral" in attempt to have it both ways. Those things don't exist. The universe just is and it has no moral component, nor does any of its creatures." That is the kind of transparency I would hope for.StephenB
June 5, 2018
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SB Thank you for the time and effort you put into this. “In spite of yourself, you recognize the self-evident truth that objective morality exists, both at the individual and societal level. So much so, that even in the process of denying it you end up confirming it against your will.” I have never encountered a subjectivist, and I dont think you have either, that does not act as if there really is an objective moral standard, you would think that would give them pause. On a more fundamental level, and this is just my pet peeve, I think we err when we give credence to the subjectivist when we gloss over the absurd position that they espouse ,which is that which does not exist exists. Given that ,when any subjectivist uses the term “moral” we should not allow them to hijack the language by regurgitating that term back to them. We should always use the correct term, which does exist which is I really, really, really have a strong preference! Vividvividbleau
June 5, 2018
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