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Junk DNA

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Commenter DK asks:

What is the official ID position on junk DNA? Has anyone proposed that it might be a mechanism to cause wholesale change in other parts of the DNA?

I thought this subject might be good for its own discusson thread so here it is. I don’t believe ID has any more “official” position on it than NDE does. It is largely regions of DNA with no known function and that isn’t to say it has no function at all. IDists tend to say there is a lot of function waiting to be discovered in it under the rubric that design is less wasteful than chance processes. The NDE position tends more toward much of it being detritus of an evolution driven by chance processes.

Clearly some of it is detritus, at least in sequence information. A good example is the remnants of retrovirus gene insertions. Absent selection pressure the useless DNA would first be peppered by point random mutations over time (it is) then discarded wholesale by larger random deletion events over larger timespans.

It seems to me that there is a larger accumulation of junk DNA than NDE would predict. Given the large amount of it in the human genome (some 98% if memory serves) natural selection should really favor larger deletion events that clean it out from the genome. In computer programming we call this “garbage collection” and go to great lengths to eliminate code and data that is no longer required. In a living cell, as in computer programs, useless code consumes resources and returns no value for it. Replication of DNA takes up time, energy, and raw materials. If it could be done faster, using less energy, and fewer raw materials that should be a strong selection factor in getting rid of stuff that isn’t used. Yet there’s a ton of it there.

When I’ve made this argument in the past the counter argument was that it’s really not that much extra burden in eukaryote cells because they are so big and have such slow reproductive rates to begin with regardless of how much DNA they have to replicate in the process of making a new cell. Prokayrotes have virtually no junk DNA in comparison and their reproductive success is largely due to how rapidly they can reproduce in great numbers. It’s a good counter argument but I’m not sure I buy it.

What really raises a red flag about how much junk is really in all our junk DNA is a how much information is required to build an organism as complex as a human. If every single bit of information in all 3 billion bases was being used for some purpose I still find it incredible that the schematics (or recipe) for a human can be contained in a gigabyte (a gigabyte is roughly how much information is in 3B bases). To posit that it can be contained in 20 megabytes (2% of one gigabyte) stretches the limit of credulity far beyond the breaking point.

So the idea that natural selection should work hard at eliminating useless DNA combined with the incredulity of a human organism being able to be specified in so little storage space makes me strongly suspect that just about every shred of it is being put to some use and then some. The “then some” is the structure of the rest of the cell or epigenetic information. Because we can see some of the junk getting peppered with point mutations it’s obvious that the specific sequence information isn’t important in some of it. To explain this I have proposed that useful information is also encoded into the 3 dimensional structure of the DNA molecule. Thus an apparently useless remant of a viral insertion would serve to subtly (or maybe not very subtly) change the shape of the molecule and thus have an effect on the organism it describes. This handily explains why so much junk is still hanging around in the human genome and where at least some extra storage space beyond codified sequence information is contained.

On the other hand maybe it is mostly junk and the answer is that there is far more epigenetic information than is known about or widely postulated.

Comments
Let me also address the issue of junk DNA from the perspective of a programmer. When I write a "hello world" program, and compile it up, the result is an executable that is around a megabyte in size. I could write the same thing in optimized machine language in a kilobyte or so. So it seems clear to me that modern programming methods produce significant quantities of "junk code". Therefore I personally do not find it unreasonable for an intelligent designer to produce junk code. Dr. Davison, I recognize your position that evolution is complete. You certainly have made a significant case for your claim. I wonder, however, if I understand your position, the first primate had within it all of the information necessary to differentiate into a human and into a chimp. If so, could it be possible that the chimp still contains remnants of the DNA that would have made it human if it had followed the other path? If segments of "this is human DNA" are found in a chimp, would that not offer significant support for your hypothesis, and seriously challenge the status quo view -- NDE?bFast
October 4, 2006
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Front Loading~ Cascading genetic changes~ mutational functions gained lossed= Left over? or maybe Junk DNA does have a function? Sounds like the jurry is out on this one!rpf_ID
October 4, 2006
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I misspoke in my earlier message . Commoner felt it was the nucleotides that had to be gotten rid of and replication of the DNA was the way the cell had of getting rid of them with the nucleus functioning as a kind of garbage disposal. Kind of far out eh? "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
October 4, 2006
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Junk DNA will remin Junk DNA until a function is demonstrated for it. I am also at a loss to understand what future evolutionary events might be expected. I see none on the horizon as I indicate with my signature. What do others expect I wonder? All is see is extinction myself, lots of it. "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evoluton undemonstrable." John A. Davison .John A. Davison
October 4, 2006
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First of all, let me point out that I know nothing of DNA so my thoughts here should be taken with copious amounts of salt. It's all idle speculation from a run of the mill programmer's perspective and not intended as criticism. It seems to me that a designer who front-loaded information into ancester DNA and went to great trouble to ensure that different bits of code got activated at prescribed times, might also arrange for any junk to be systematically discarded as he went along if it was going to incur costs. That's what I always tried to do when allocating and freeing memory in a C program. Maybe that's an argument against a front-loading designer, or maybe it means that the cost isn't so great after all. If instead he were to use a garbage collector then he would need to mark the DNA as junk as soon as it's appropriate. Otherwise a garbage collector wouldn't know if a particular segment of DNA was pure junk, coding DNA or DNA that didn't code for anything but did influence something else somewhere along the line. One way a garbage collector running on a computer identifies junk is to traverse all of the memory still in use, marking valid objects as non-junk and then assuming everything no so marked is junk. However, in this case not-junk is defined as referenced by some extant object, the not-junk memory might still be random garbage. Also it should be noted that you need to allocate additional memory to store flags (or a generation number etc.) for the use of the garbage collector. I'm not sure how a cell's replicating mechanisms could decide if non-coding DNA might be "referenced" by which I mean it either had a useful effect in the past (and therefore needed for the next generation) or is likely to have a useful effect for the current organism sometime in the future. Again, the clever old designer probably would be the one to take care of that. I don't see how a RM+NS model could handle a build up of junk. If it is all conveniently located in one place, there is a change that it a fair chunk of it could be eliminated in one go providing an advantage. If, OTOH, the DNA is fragmented with junk here, there and everywhere, then getting one or two small pieces is probably not going to make a difference to the organism's survival. Getting lot's of non-contiguous sequences would involve lots of mutations with potential for a lot of harm done as well and the likelyhood of the introduction of new junk at the same time. Also, I wonder if some things might work out differently if there wasn't genuine junk, affecting timings. Finally, the idea of garbage collection is that the system frees up memory from time to time, or when memory use reaches a certain level, not every time a mutation produces some new junk. Would you have the GC() run, say, every 1000 generations or when junk content reached a particular percentage of the total?steveh
October 4, 2006
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There certainly have been a few ID theorists who have placed a lot of weight on the hypothesis that much/most of the junk DNA will prove to be useful. Most noteably, not because he is a central theorist, but because of the strength of his statement, is Denton. In Nature's Destiny, pp 289,290 Denton says:
If it is true that a vast amount of DNA in higher organisms is in fact junk, then this would indeed pose a very serious challenge to the idea of directed evolution or any teleological model of evolution. Junk DNA and directed evolution are in the end incompatible concepts. Only if the junk DNA contained information specifying for future evolutionary evvents, when it would not in a strict sense be junk in any case, could the finding be reconsiled with a teleological model of evolution. Indeed, if it were true that the genomes of higher organisms contained vast quantities of junk, then the whole argument of this book would collapse. Teleology would be entirely discredited.
bFast
October 4, 2006
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The ciliate protozoans are very large cells with incredible internal complexity and morphology. They may have whole "organ systems" contained inside a single reproductive unit. Correlated with large size they have a large macronucleus and typically one micronucleus which is diploid. The macronucleus originates by endomitotic duplication of the micronucleus. When the cell divides the micronucleus divides mitotically but the macronucleus just pinches in two without producing identical products. This leads to a physiological unbalance which has to be restored by making a new macronucleus. A new macronucleus is periodically produced by a series of mitotic duplications of the micronucleus (endomitosis). Otherwise the animal will degenerate and die. Cells which are prevented from doing this give rise to degenerating lines doomed to ultimate extinction. I always thought this might have something to do with junk DNA because when the macronuclei divide amititically they must lose their genetic specificity in the process. The macronucleus, when first restored by approximately 10 endomitiotic replications which make it 1024 ploid, it is perfectly balanced and only gradually becomes unbalanced with subsequent amitotic replications. The micronucleus ALWAYS reproduces mitotically and accordingly genetically faithfully. The junk DNA may just be DNA that failed to replicate properly and the cells just had to find a way to get it out of the way. Years ago Barry Commoner published a paper about what he called the "nuclear wastebasket theory." The idea was that the cell had to get rid of its DNA somehow so it stuck it in the nucleus. I was his colleague at Washington University at the time, he in Botany, I in Zoology and everybody thought he was crazy, everybody except me that is! Of course everybody thought I was crazy too, so Barry and I always hit it off rather well. The ciliate protozoa are extremely advanced creatures in many ways which I take to be support for the PEH. There is a picture of one, Diplodinium ecaudatum, which lives in huge numbers in the rumen of cattle, in section VII-2 of the Manifesto along with a key to its incredible intracellular structure. Leo Berg called this sort of thing "phylogenetic acceleration." I call it "phylogenetic derepression," That it could occur in a protozoan is compatible with a "prescribed evolution," being simply a premature demonstration of it. A true placenta in certain sharks is another example. The ciliate protozoa may provide a model for the "Junk DNA" notion. I just don't know. "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
October 4, 2006
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