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Keith S Shows Learned Hand How a Design Inference Works Using CSI

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In comment 58 to my Actually Observed thread ID opponent keith s shows ID opponent Learned Hand how the design inference works.

To use the coin-flipping example, every sequence of 500 fair coin flips is astronomically improbable, because there are 2^500 possible sequences and all have equally low probability. But obviously we don’t exclaim “Design!” after every 500 coin flips. The missing ingredient is the specification of the target T.

Suppose I specify that T is a sequence of 250 consecutive heads followed by 250 consecutive tails. If I then sit down and proceed to flip that exact sequence, you can be virtually certain that something fishy is going on. In other words, you can reject the chance hypothesis H that the coin is fair and that I am flipping it fairly.

Keiths then goes on to with some mistaken interpretations of Dembski’s work.  But that’s all right.  The important thing is that even one of our most inveterate opponents agrees with the basic thrust of the design inference. We are making progress.

Ironically, later in the post Learned Hand writes:

I think I’ll start a clock on any ID supporter actually testing whether CSI can detect design without knowing (or assuming) in advance whether the subject is designed.

Well, LH, he is far from an ID supporter, but will keiths example work?

Comments
Barry, You made the claim. Can you back it up? If not, then withdraw it. Everyone is watching.keith s
November 17, 2014
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ks, I'm not interested in playing games. Have I misrepresented your position? Do you in fact believe that CSI defined as a highly complex pattern (such as one with 500 bits of information) that conforms to a specification does exist? If so, I will happily withdraw the claim. Barry Arrington
November 17, 2014
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And while you're at it, be brave and admit these mistakes.keith s
November 17, 2014
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Barry, Show me exactly where I have said something equivalent to that. Link, please. You made the claim. If you can't back it up, then withdraw it.keith s
November 17, 2014
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keiths @ 27:
CSI defined as a highly complex pattern (such as one with 500 bits of information) that conforms to a specification does not exist.
Show me exactly where I have said something equivalent to that
Have I misrepresented your position? Do you in fact believe that CSI defined as a highly complex pattern (such as one with 500 bits of information) that conforms to a specification does exist? If so, I will happily withdraw the claim.Barry Arrington
November 17, 2014
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The sort of thing that gets kairosfocus pounding the keyboard about strawmen soaked in oil of red herring and ignited in an ad hominem bonfire to create choking clouds to distract and obfuscate the obvious truth as explained in the always-linked . . . . Keith's points are clear and concise. Your summaries are muddled and inaccurate. But they're surely easier to respond to than his actual statements.Learned Hand
November 17, 2014
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Barry, It's fun to watch you tap dance. You claim that this is a "summary" of one of my "conflicting positions":
CSI defined as a highly complex pattern (such as one with 500 bits of information) that conforms to a specification does not exist.
Show me exactly where I have said something equivalent to that. Link, please.keith s
November 17, 2014
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keiths:
Neither of those quotes exists in this thread.
I would have bet a million dollars that you would play the "you misquoted me" card. You don't disappoint. Here, let me help you out: The statements are presented as summaries of the conflicting positions you've taken. Everyone knows this. It is amusing to watch you pretend that you don't.Barry Arrington
November 17, 2014
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PaV, DNA_Jock isn't even commenting in this thread. Who are you responding to?keith s
November 17, 2014
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Then, based on the cellular machinery and biological laws that apply to the construction of proteins and protein assemblies, we calculate the improbability. If it surpasses the UPB, then it is CSI, and we can conclude that “design” was involved in its construction.
Let me rephrase: "Then, based on the cellular machinery and biological laws that apply to the construction of proteins and protein assemblies, we conclude that this is a highly improbable event. Now the task of calculating CSI lies before us. Based on what we know of the genetic code and how genetic machinery works, in a simplified form, we calculate the improbability of the flagellum, beginning with any 'unique' proteins it contains, and then of the likelihood of the proteins chemically linking to one another so as to form a "rotator" assembly, etc. If this improbability exceeds 1 in 2^500, then we can conclude that "design" was involved in its construction."PaV
November 17, 2014
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ppolish:
BA77, you misread my emotions. I’m in love with your posts – seriously.
Awwwww. How sweet. :-)keith s
November 17, 2014
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Barry, Where? Neither of those quotes exists in this thread. Links, please.keith s
November 17, 2014
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DNA_Jock:
CSI and Specified complexity do not help in any way to establish that the evolution of the bacterial flagellum is improbable. Rather, the only way to establish that the bacterial flagellum exhibits CSI is to first show that it was improbable. Any attempt to use CSI to establish the improbability of evolution is deeply fallacious.
Let me take a try at explaining this quote. What Winston is saying is precisely that a "pattern must be recognized" before CSI can be established. It's really as simple as this. Put another way, we could say that the "specification" does NOT exist, unless a "pattern" is first observed. This is the meaning of Winston saying: "Rather, the only way to establish that the bacterial flagellum exhibits CSI is to first show that it was improbable." How do we "show that it [is] improbable"? Well, first we have to notice something about the flagellum, that it has different parts, that the parts themselves are built in a particular way, and noticing the interaction of its component parts. Then, we ask the question: is this a probable event? How do we determine this? We ask ourselves: given the way the cell functions, how likely is that to have happened simply by "chance." Then, based on the cellular machinery and biological laws that apply to the construction of proteins and protein assemblies, we calculate the improbability. If it surpasses the UPB, then it is CSI, and we can conclude that "design" was involved in its construction. Your example of 500 coin flips. In his book, NFL, Dembski gives us the probabilities of various degrees of repetition in coin flips. Obviously, the longer the string, the more improbable. With this as a bit of "background knowledge," we see 250 consecutive flips resulting in 250 H's followed by 250 T's. We say, this is highly improbable. We look at the first set of 250 flips, and know, immediately, that it represents a likelihood of happening of 1 in 2^250, or 250 bits. The same is true of the second 250 "flips." Now there's the question of whether or not the second 250 flips are "dependent" on the first 250. The answer is that they are not. Hence the maximum improbability of the entire event is 1 in 2^251, which is well below the UPB. Hence, we are unable to say that this event is due to "design."PaV
November 17, 2014
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BA77, you misread my emotions. I'm in love with your posts - seriously. But reading Arrival of the Fittest was an easy and informative read. Dembski's Being as Communion is a much better/deeper explanation that underlies Wagner's work. Wagner sneaks in lots of stuff and ignores lots of stuff too. I'm going to reread Dembski and appreciate it even more.ppolish
November 17, 2014
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keith s @ 18. Look above.Barry Arrington
November 17, 2014
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Barry #16, Links, please.keith s
November 17, 2014
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Barry, I realize it may be some time before you can summon the courage to admit your mistakes. In the meantime, do you have other confusions about ID that you would like the critics to correct?keith s
November 17, 2014
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keith s: Here’s how you make a design inference based on the combination of 500 bits of information and a specification. keith s: CSI defined as a highly complex pattern (such as one with 500 bits of information) that conforms to a specification does not exist. Amusing really.Barry Arrington
November 17, 2014
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Is an explanation really necessary? It should be common sense. Just look at the flagellum, it is so obviously designed. It boggles the mind that there could be any doubt.
That about sums up ID. Meanwhile, in universities and laboratories all over the world scientists are engaged in the hard intellectual work of testing their beliefs.Learned Hand
November 17, 2014
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People infer design all the time . . .The question isn’t whether design can ever be inferred.
I am glad to hear you admit that.
It’s whether it can be inferred in the cases under dispute . . .
That is certainly the issue. And when, as you say, people infer design “all of the time,” each time they do so the issue is whether design can be inferred in that particular case under dispute. Again, I am glad to hear you admit that. That is the basic thrust of the design argument. Welcome to the ID camp.
I await any ID proponent’s demonstration that the flagellum or any other naturally occurring biological phenomenon is designed
And I await any non-question begging demonstration that it evolved by strictly chance/law mechanisms.Barry Arrington
November 17, 2014
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Barry has said elsewhere that if we observe him laying out 500 coins all heads up, we don’t need to check the CSI since we observed the pattern being intelligently designed. But how do we know that Barry is intelligent? More generally, how do we know that humans are intelligent? We infer intelligence when a being communicates with us. What is communication? Communication is the sharing of information. If the information communicated is complex enough (if the being only ever communicates very simple bits of information we conclude that it is, at best, of vastly inferior intelligence), and if the information matches an independent specification (most commonly, it accurately describes the world around us) we then infer that the being is intelligent.
CSI detects intelligent design because it only comes from intelligences, who are intelligent because they generate CSI, which detects intelligent design because it only comes from intelligences, who are intelligent because they generate CSI, et cetera ad infinitum. It's not quite as circular as assuming non-design to conclude design, but it's pretty close.Learned Hand
November 17, 2014
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Keiths you say "I await any ID proponent’s demonstration that the flagellum or any other naturally occurring biological phenomenon is designed." Is an explanation really necessary? It should be common sense. Just look at the flagellum, it is so obviously designed. It boggles the mind that there could be any doubt.humbled
November 17, 2014
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My response to keith s was to say: Thanks, that makes sense. I guess I fell into the trap of oversimplifying a probability calculation to make it match my intuition! I think that's an appropriate way to acknowledge someone who corrects your errors. Barry Arrington will not do that. There is virtually no chance that he will ever acknowledge that keith s is correct, and that he is wrong, about how CSI is calculated or whether it is actually used to detect design. In answer to the question in the OP: no, keith's example won't work. It should be obvious why not. As he says, he's not calculating CSI to see whether design exists. He's concluding that non-design is impossible and then using that assumption to determine whether CSI exists. CSI doesn't work to detect design. It starts with a design assumption and then calculates that the assumption was correct. That may be one reason why no one outside the creationism tent finds it useful or has adopted it. It's also probably why no one inside that tent has ever bothered to test it: they're as aware as the rest of us that it doesn't work to detect design.Learned Hand
November 17, 2014
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keiths, to Barry:
By the way, are you ever going to admit that you were wrong about the need for chance hypotheses in establishing the presence of CSI and about the non-circular use of CSI to detect design?
I love the irony. Barry K. Arrington, the self-described "President" of UD, doesn't understand ID and requires tutoring from ID critics.keith s
November 17, 2014
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I would go so far as to say that CSI is not merely one way we detect intelligent design, but is in fact the ONLY way we detect intelligent design. Barry has said elsewhere that if we observe him laying out 500 coins all heads up, we don't need to check the CSI since we observed the pattern being intelligently designed. But how do we know that Barry is intelligent? More generally, how do we know that humans are intelligent? We infer intelligence when a being communicates with us. What is communication? Communication is the sharing of information. If the information communicated is complex enough (if the being only ever communicates very simple bits of information we conclude that it is, at best, of vastly inferior intelligence), and if the information matches an independent specification (most commonly, it accurately describes the world around us) we then infer that the being is intelligent. Maybe I am wrong and there is in fact some other way of finding if a being is intelligent. Consider it a challenge if you like. Prove to me that humans (or any other being) is intelligent without sneaking in Complex Specified Information.StephenA
November 17, 2014
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Barry,
You should tell Nick “Not Really” Matzke. He didn’t get the memo.
It looks like Nick understood it far better than you and Salvador. Here is Salvador's question:
If you came across a table on which was set 500 coins (no tossing involved) and all 500 coins displayed the “heads” side of the coin, would you reject “chance” as a hypothesis to explain this particular configuration of coins on a table?
Nick correctly replied "Not really", and he pointed out a simple "chance hypothesis" that Salvador was overlooking: that the coins had heads on both sides.keith s
November 17, 2014
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Barry, People infer design all the time -- sometimes correctly, sometimes incorrectly. The question isn't whether design can ever be inferred. It's whether it can be inferred in the cases under dispute, particularly those involving biological phenomena. I await any ID proponent's demonstration that the flagellum or any other naturally occurring biological phenomenon is designed. By the way, are you ever going to admit that you were wrong about the need for chance hypotheses in establishing the presence of CSI and about the non-circular use of CSI to detect design?keith s
November 17, 2014
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And, as you say, "be virtually certain that something fishy is going on" thereby concluding "design."Barry Arrington
November 17, 2014
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Barry:
Keiths, you admit that the combination of low probability and a specification leads to a design inference. That is all I’ve been saying.
No, it isn't. You've been claiming that chance hypotheses are unnecessary to establish the presence of CSI, which is wrong. You've also been claiming that CSI can be used to detect design, which is wrong, too.
You don’t want to call it CSI. OK.
Calling it CSI isn't the problem. It's the circularity that is the problem. See Winston's advice above.
By the way, the logic of your example to LH is unassailable.
That's right. We can reject the hypothesis that the coin is fair and is being flipped fairly.keith s
November 17, 2014
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OT: ppolish, I noticed you were a bit like a teenager in love with 'Arrival of the Fittest'. Here is bit more sober look at the book that may temper that unbridled enthusiasm: Arrival of the Fittest: Natural Selection as an Incantation - November 17, 2014 Excerpt: "In Arrival of the Fittest, renowned evolutionary biologist Andreas Wagner draws on over fifteen years of research to present the missing piece in Darwin's theory (funny how Darwinists only admit that evolution has a 'missing piece' when they think they can explain that 'missing piece'). Using experimental and computational technologies that were heretofore unimagined, he has found that adaptations are not just driven by chance, but by a set of laws that allow nature to discover new molecules and mechanisms in a fraction of the time that random variation would take." Once again, as with Avida and all the other computer models, we find that Wagner has snuck extra information into the system. As Dembski showed in No Free Lunch, no evolutionary algorithm is superior to blind search. Without design, there is no shortcut to the treasure (i.e. to new functional complexity/information). http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/11/arrival_of_the091261.htmlbornagain77
November 17, 2014
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