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Keith S Shows Learned Hand How a Design Inference Works Using CSI

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In comment 58 to my Actually Observed thread ID opponent keith s shows ID opponent Learned Hand how the design inference works.

To use the coin-flipping example, every sequence of 500 fair coin flips is astronomically improbable, because there are 2^500 possible sequences and all have equally low probability. But obviously we don’t exclaim “Design!” after every 500 coin flips. The missing ingredient is the specification of the target T.

Suppose I specify that T is a sequence of 250 consecutive heads followed by 250 consecutive tails. If I then sit down and proceed to flip that exact sequence, you can be virtually certain that something fishy is going on. In other words, you can reject the chance hypothesis H that the coin is fair and that I am flipping it fairly.

Keiths then goes on to with some mistaken interpretations of Dembski’s work.  But that’s all right.  The important thing is that even one of our most inveterate opponents agrees with the basic thrust of the design inference. We are making progress.

Ironically, later in the post Learned Hand writes:

I think I’ll start a clock on any ID supporter actually testing whether CSI can detect design without knowing (or assuming) in advance whether the subject is designed.

Well, LH, he is far from an ID supporter, but will keiths example work?

Comments
Learned Hand:
Ewert made this point recently, which was interesting because I didn’t realize anyone inside the ID movement acknowledged this issue. I don’t quite understand what the point of CSI is to Ewert, but obviously most people here do think of it as a design detector.
Here's how Ewert put it in his recent OP:
The notion of specified complexity exists for one purpose: to give force to probability arguments. If we look at Behe’s irreducible complexity, Axe’s work on proteins, or practically any work by any intelligent design proponent, the work seeks to demonstrate that the Darwinian account of evolution is vastly improbable. Dembski’s work on specified complexity and design inference works to show why that improbability gives us reason to reject Darwinian evolution and accept design. So Keith is right, arguing for the improbability of evolution on the basis of specified complexity is circular. However, specified complexity, as developed by Dembski, isn’t designed for the purpose of demonstrating the improbability of evolution. When used for its proper role, specified complexity is a valid, though limited argument.
What he's saying, in a nutshell, is that since improbable things happen all the time, we can't infer design from improbability alone. We also need a specification, and he credits Dembski for elucidating how specification augments improbability in establishing design. Ewert avoids the circularity problem, but the other flaws of CSI are still there. For example, Dembski's notions regarding specifications are problematic:
“Specification” is Dembski’s attempt at dealing with the fact that vastly improbable things happen all the time. Problem is, specifications are usually too specific. For example, Dembski knows that he would be committing the lottery winner fallacy if he claimed that the bacterial flagellum, exactly as it appears today, was evolution’s “target”. Instead, he broadens the specification to include any “bidirectional rotary motor-driven propeller.” But this is still far too specific. Even “propulsion system” is too specific, because evolution didn’t set out to produce a propulsion system. Evolution’s only “target” is differential reproductive advantage, and even then the word “target” is too strong.
keith s
November 17, 2014
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tjguy, See Keith, this is something that cannot really be proven either way. We could say the same thing to you. We await any evolutionist’s demonstration that the flagellum or any other naturally occurring biological machine in the cell can evolve by totally natural unguided processes. There are a few ways to distinguish the positions. The most obvious one is that IDists have made the simple, clear claim that they can actually detect design with no false positives. Is there an equivalent "we can detect evolution algorithmically" claim? The clarity and specificity of the ID claim makes it pretty easy to test. Can IDists actually detect design? The last couple of days have made it very clear that they can't, at least not with CSI.Learned Hand
November 17, 2014
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The problem with the argument from IC is not that it’s circular — it’s that IC is not a barrier to evolution.
What kind of evolution are you talking about here? Darwinian evolution, requiring traits to be recorded in the genome, expressed in the progeny, and filtered by selection? Or some something more ambiguous?Upright BiPed
November 17, 2014
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Not really. It’s more like “These are the kinds of things I do/create that are a result of my ability to reason. Therefore, when I see others do/create similar things I can conclude they have a similar ability.” Yeah, like you say I think our approaches are fairly similar. I think that puts me further away from understanding, though, because I don't think that this has much in common with CSI. I don't see where you're really even considering complexity or specification. Maybe you're thinking more along the lines of explanatory filter? Dembski says specified complexity is just an extension of the EF, I think, but I don't see the extended parts in your approach. If I am reading you right, you are saying that out of ‘Complex Specified Information’, only the ‘Complex Information’ parts are necessary to identify design with no false positives. Is that correct? I don't think any version or component or application of CSI lets you identify design, and if it did I don't think it would exclude false positives. Nor do I understand how you can separate the C and S from the I; isn't the information the unit being calculated, with complexity and specification being characteristics of that information? In other words, we're not communicating on this point at all. My point in that paragraph was just what Keith and others have been trying to explain for quite a while: you can't calculate CSI formally until you know whether or not the subject could have come about through non-design means (such as random chance or evolution). So if you can't calculate CSI until you've already ruled out everything but design, CSI doesn't actually detect design. Ewert made this point recently, which was interesting because I didn't realize anyone inside the ID movement acknowledged this issue. I don't quite understand what the point of CSI is to Ewert, but obviously most people here do think of it as a design detector.Learned Hand
November 17, 2014
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tjguy #56,
...you would think that you would at least allow the design option on the table. But you don’t. No bias there, right?
I do allow design on the table. And when I treat design and unguided evolution equally, I find that UE is literally trillions of times better than design at explaining the evidence. My rejection of design is based on evidence, not bias. Here's an earlier comment of mine, to Box. Read it carefully and you will see that I'm treating the two hypotheses equally:
You want to give ID an unfair advantage. I want to treat ID and unguided evolution equally, to see which one prevails on a level playing field. Of course that is “unacceptable” to you, because ID loses on a level playing field, and you don’t like that. You want to rig the game so that ID will win despite being an inferior hypothesis. That is unacceptable to any honest, science-minded person. Let me try once more to explain this to you. 1. “Unguided evolution produced the ONH” is a hypothesis. It might be true; it might be false. If it’s true, then unguided evolution must exist, and it must have the capabilities needed to produce the ONH. If it’s false, then either unguided evolution doesn’t exist (or was prevented from operating), or else it doesn’t have the capabilities needed to produce the ONH. 2. “A designer produced the ONH” is a hypothesis. It might be true; it might be false. If it’s true, then a designer must exist, and it must have the capabilities needed to produce the ONH. If it’s false, then either the designer doesn’t exist (or was prevented from operating), or else it doesn’t have the capabilities needed to produce the ONH. 3. We know that unguided evolution exists. Even the most rabid IDer/YEC will admit that antibiotic resistance can evolve, though there are people who actually believe that natural selection is a tautology, including UD President Barry Arrington, believe it or not. 4. We don’t know that the putative designer exists, so ID is already behind in the race. 5. We cannot prove that unguided evolution could accomplish every single step required to produce the ONH. That would require not only that we know every single step, which is impossible — it would also require us to know unguided evolution’s capabilities well enough to decide if each step was within its reach. 6. We cannot prove that the designer could accomplish every single step required to produce the ONH. That would require not only that we know every single step, which is impossible — it would also require us to know the designer’s capabilities well enough to decide if each step was within its reach. 7. If we assume that the ONH is out of unguided evolution’s reach, then of course unguided evolution cannot explain the ONH. 8. If we assume that the ONH is out of the designer’s reach, then of course ID cannot explain the ONH. 9. If we took that attitude, then we’d have to rule out both ID and unguided evolution! That would be a ridiculous conclusion, because one of them might actually be the correct explanation. 10. Are we stuck? Of course not. Instead of assuming that they don’t work, we can assume that they do. Then we can see if one of them fits the evidence better than the other. 11. If we take that approach and assume, temporarily and for the sake of argument alone, that unguided evolution is responsible for the diversity of life, we can see that unguided evolution predicts an objective nested hierarchy out of the trillions of possibilities. 12. If we take that approach and assume, temporarily and for the sake of argument alone, that the designer is responsible for the diversity of life, we can see that ID does not predict an objective nested hierarchy out of the trillions of possibilities. We have treated ID an unguided evolution exactly the same, and evaluated them on a level playing field. If we assume that neither works, then of course neither can explain the ONH. If we assume that they do work, then unguided evolution makes a spectacularly successful, one in trillions prediction: the existence of the ONH. Meanwhile, ID falls flat on its face. None of the possibilities are ruled out, so under an ID hypothesis, we would expect with 99.999… % probability to find that there was not an objective nested hierarchy. If you treat them equally, unguided evolution blows ID out of the water. It isn’t even close. ID is a profoundly irrational position.
keith s
November 17, 2014
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keiths:
Using CSI to detect design is circular.
StephenB:
Is that always the case?
Using Dembski's definition of CSI, yes. I think it's instructive to compare irreducible complexity to CSI in this respect. To argue that something is designed because it exhibits CSI is circular, because you have to know that it is designed before you can attribute CSI to it. To argue that something is designed because it is irreducibly complex is not circular, because you can determine that it is IC (according to Behe's definition) without first determining that it is designed. The problem with the argument from IC is not that it's circular -- it's that IC is not a barrier to evolution.keith s
November 17, 2014
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KeithS
Using CSI to detect design is circular.
Is that always the case?StephenB
November 17, 2014
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Keith S @4
I await any ID proponent’s demonstration that the flagellum or any other naturally occurring biological phenomenon is designed.
See Keith, this is something that cannot really be proven either way. We could say the same thing to you. We await any evolutionist's demonstration that the flagellum or any other naturally occurring biological machine in the cell can evolve by totally natural unguided processes. So, given that this is something that cannot really be demonstrated either way, we are in the same boat, aren't we? You believe it happened all on it's own. We believe it shows clear evidence of design. I'm sure you are familiar with the arguments as to why that is the case. Indeed, it really isn't so extraordinary to assume design when we see rotary engine, amazing speed, extremely fast capability to change directions, all the moving parts and how they are assembled together, and the fact that the machine probably would not work properly until all the parts are properly assembled, etc. So, while that may not impress you, it does impress many engineers. It does impress many people who are not bias against design, but are open to it. Again, given the fact that you cannot demonstrate that it could design and assemble itself all on it's own, and given the complexity of it, the efficiency of it, and it's resemblance to machines designed by intelligent agents, you would think that you would at least allow the design option on the table. But you don't. No bias there, right? Neither IDers or creationists claim that we can prove design. Neither can we prove that it was not designed. How could you ever do that? We are dealing with history here and it can't be repeated or observed. It happened once in the distant past. I think the design hypothesis is clearly the superior and natural explanation for the phenomenon. But when it comes to which one is superior to the other, obviously we will have a wide range of opinions on that so I understand that you might not agree. That's your prerogative as it is mine to choose the design hypothesis over the chance hypothesis. It may be hard to understand why many folk just cannot see it your way, but just so, people on the other side find it difficult to understand why you can't see it our way. And, I have a feeling that until you can demonstrate that your belief is accurate, most of us will have a hard time mustering up the faith to believe in the miraculous power of random natural processes. And the same can probably be said about you. Until we can demonstrate that it is actually designed, you will probably have a hard time mustering up the faith to believe that a Mind is behind that machine. Fair enough! Cheers!tjguy
November 17, 2014
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I think Dembski’s core idea, that some things are so improbable that they can’t have happened naturally, works for me as long as you actually know the relevant probabilities. But since knowing all the relevant probabilities lets you determine design without calculating CSI, it’s kind of an empty formalism.
Took me a little longer to parse this bit. If I am reading you right, you are saying that out of 'Complex Specified Information', only the 'Complex Information' parts are necessary to identify design with no false positives. Is that correct?StephenA
November 17, 2014
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As I thought more about it, I think I have to distinguish the ability to reason from the possession of a subjective sense of self. When you say “intelligence,” do you mean one or the other or both or neither?
The ability to reason. The ability to have experiences is a different, though highly correlated, attribute.
I’m starting to understand your position better, I think. Would it be right to say that you’re looking at other people’s actions, asking whether there’s an explanation other than intelligence, and if not concluding intelligence exists? That’s possibly an oversimplification.
Not really. It's more like "These are the kinds of things I do/create that are a result of my ability to reason. Therefore, when I see others do/create similar things I can conclude they have a similar ability." I can't say "These effects have no explanation other than intelligence." because I have not yet concluded that intelligence is something that anything other than myself can have.
As I’m reasoning it out now, I think I could say that I reason out from their actions to generate a model of what their intelligence is like. Since I can model out an intelligence like my own, I assume they’re intelligent barring disproof.
Doesn't sound very different from what I have laid out here.StephenA
November 17, 2014
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wd400:
Keith makes an inference based on the specification and a specific chance hypothesis.
Interesting. Let's say that the specification part is not in dispute and concentrate on the "specific chance hypothesis" bit. How does that help keiths? How many chance hypotheses did keiths have to chose from? Why did he choose the one he chose?Mung
November 17, 2014
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keiths:
I can back up my claims.
This would be more believable if you actually did back up your claims.Mung
November 17, 2014
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keiths:
I can back up my claims.
When will you back up your claim that evolution is unguided?Mung
November 17, 2014
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keiths:
I can back up my claims.
When will you back up your claim that ID is incompatible with the evidence for common descent?Mung
November 17, 2014
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Barry:
So I ask him, even if I have did not fairly represent in 16 what you previously said, does what I said in 16 fairly represent your position.
No. You are wrong on both counts. Learned Hand got it right.keith s
November 17, 2014
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keiths:
Dembski attempted to do it for the flagellum in No Free Lunch, but he erred by treating the flagellum as a “discrete combinatorial object” that had to form all at once. I believe that even he now admits that his calculation was bogus. I’ll see if I can find the quote.
Here's the Dembski quote:
(2) The challenge for determining whether a biological structure exhibits CSI is to find one that’s simple enough on which the probability calculation can be convincingly performed but complex enough so that it does indeed exhibit CSI. The example in NFL ch. 5 doesn’t fit the bill. The example from Doug Axe in ch. 7 of THE DESIGN OF LIFE (www.thedesignoflife.net) is much stronger.
I think I have The Design of Life at home. I'll check to see if Axe manages to pull it off. Don't hold your breath.keith s
November 17, 2014
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What sorts of things? Eating? Growing? Those aren’t enough to establish intelligence as we commonly think of it, unless you want to say that a venus fly trap is also intelligent. No, talking and reasoning and feeling emotions and such things that are, in my experience, unique to humans. (Obviously a lot of those are present to a certain extent in animals too, but for the sake of discussion I think we can draw a clear enough line.) When I took the time to think about CSI and understand it, I realized that it was not a new process but something I have been doing subconsciously all along. We don’t usually think of complexity as a form of probability (or improbability), and if it helps we could just use the term complexity for now. I think Dembski wants CSI to seem natural and obvious like that; I'm not convinced that it is, partly because as far as I can tell he's never been able to add anything of actual substance to any real-world design detection process. Whatever CSI does, and however natural it feels, when it's formalized it's useless in the real world. (As Dembski agrees; when I asked him how we'd test CSI he basically said that you can't. That has dire implications for its future as a real design-detection tool.) I'd rather think of it in terms of probability than complexity; I think Dembski's core idea, that some things are so improbable that they can't have happened naturally, works for me as long as you actually know the relevant probabilities. But since knowing all the relevant probabilities lets you determine design without calculating CSI, it's kind of an empty formalism. Anyway, just saying "complexity" doesn't do us any good since the idea is all about probability. I don’t think that the process you describe is exactly CSI (doesn’t seem complex enough). It also doesn’t seem like a good way to determine if a being is intelligent since, as you note, it generates false positives (as well as false negatives if the being conceals or is unable to express it’s emotions). Is it your position that there is no reliable reason to think that other humans are intelligent? I presume not. Yeah, I don't think it's possible to quantify these things, so it's going to be subjective. My main point was that a broad sense of "other people do the same things I do" is too loose to say, "That's CSI." As I thought more about it, I think I have to distinguish the ability to reason from the possession of a subjective sense of self. When you say "intelligence," do you mean one or the other or both or neither? What exactly is the logic that gives you such confidence that other humans are intelligent? I don't know how logical my approach is in practice. I've always assumed that other humans are intelligent. As I'm reasoning it out now, I think I could say that I reason out from their actions to generate a model of what their intelligence is like. Since I can model out an intelligence like my own, I assume they're intelligent barring disproof. That's not very well articulated, but hopefully it's clear enough. I'm starting to understand your position better, I think. Would it be right to say that you're looking at other people's actions, asking whether there's an explanation other than intelligence, and if not concluding intelligence exists? That's possibly an oversimplification.Learned Hand
November 17, 2014
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Learned Hand:
I can’t speak for Keith, but I have a hard time aligning this with what he has been saying. What do you mean that he believes CSI does not exist? That it’s not calculable, or that it’s an incoherent concept? I think his position is the former, but that’s not the same thing as saying it doesn’t exist.
Exactly right. To calculate CSI, you need to be able to calculate P(T|H). No one has ever been able to do that for a naturally occurring biological phenomenon. Dembski attempted to do it for the flagellum in No Free Lunch, but he erred by treating the flagellum as a "discrete combinatorial object" that had to form all at once. I believe that even he now admits that his calculation was bogus. I'll see if I can find the quote. So you are right about my position, and Barry is wrong, again. That's why he was unable to back up his statement. He's had a pretty bad day today.keith s
November 17, 2014
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Learned Hand, to Barry:
Perhaps you could discuss it with him rather than dictating it to him and giving him “last chances.”
I think the "last chances" bit was Barry's lame attempt to bluff me out of my position by flashing the ban hammer. It won't work, because I'm in a better position than Barry, and he and I both know it. If he bans me, he is admitting defeat. If he doesn't ban me, then he has to face (or run from) my challenges. I've already challenged him 1) to admit that he was wrong about chance hypotheses; 2) to admit that he fell into the circularity trap; 3) to admit that his challenge is empty, because it can't be met, by definition; and 4) to admit that his "summary" of my position was a fabrication. He is squirming to avoid all of those challenges.keith s
November 17, 2014
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LH, of course I don’t write to convince keith s. I write for the lurkers, and everyone – me, you , keith s, the lurkers – knows what keith s’ actual position is. You claim to be "seriously interested in understanding [Keith's] position." But when it comes right down to it, even you acknowledge that what you really want to do is tell all your readers what his position is. That's not a very good way of trying to understand his points. Like CSI, you're assuming your conclusion and then attacking anyone who questions you. (Seriously, when was the last time you had a civil, back-and-forth conversation on Uncommon Descent?) He does not in fact believe that CSI defined as a highly complex pattern (such as one with 500 bits of information) that conforms to a specification exists. I can't speak for Keith, but I have a hard time aligning this with what he has been saying. What do you mean that he believes CSI does not exist? That it's not calculable, or that it's an incoherent concept? I think his position is the former, but that's not the same thing as saying it doesn't exist. Or do you mean that he thinks it's circular? That's also not the same thing. And are you talking about your version of CSI or Dembski's? Your formulation of Keith's position is not very coherent, and assumes things that don't come from his position. Why shouldn't he be hesitant to try and unpack his actual position from your muddled, loaded summary of it? You're obviously going to pounce on whatever he says and attack, attack, attack. That's why most conversations involve questions and discussion, rather than dictating positions and demanding that your opponent (and you do treat everyone who disagrees with you as an opponent) toe the line or else. Insisting that he work with your articulation of his ideas, rather than his, disrupts the conversation and bogs down an already-complex conversation. Your approach is good for point-scoring, but it's very bad at increasing your own understanding of his position. And I think the last few OPs have demonstrated some significant holes in your understanding. If your approach to CSI is already weak, are you in a good position to understand Keith's approach? But he can’t admit that, because to do so will be to admit the full force of my comment at 16. As I said, this is quite the projection. You told me--dismissively--a while back that Dembski and Orgel use the term "complexity" in exactly the same way. You bailed on that conversation without being able to support your point. Are you going to "admit that"? No, you're not. And it would be absurd for me to issue petty demands that you do so, much less give you a "last chance." Your doing that here is a strong signal that you aren't very interested in understanding Keith's position--you're interested in winning the conversation. (never mind that his admission is somewhat superfluous because everyone knows I represented his position fairly) If you think it's so clear to all the readers, why do you need to belabor the point? It seems to me like you've defined a position that you can't tie very closely to what Keiths actually said. That would explain why you're so intent on focusing the conversation on your words rather than his.Learned Hand
November 17, 2014
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My gut answer is that I think I am intelligent, and I see other people doing the same sort of things I do. I ascribe to them the same qualities I see in myself. I think. But probability never enters into my thinking about it.
What sorts of things? Eating? Growing? Those aren't enough to establish intelligence as we commonly think of it, unless you want to say that a venus fly trap is also intelligent. When I took the time to think about CSI and understand it, I realized that it was not a new process but something I have been doing subconsciously all along. We don't usually think of complexity as a form of probability (or improbability), and if it helps we could just use the term complexity for now.
I typed the above without reading your last paragraph! You anticipated me. But I don’t think you’re right. Nothing about my process requires CSI, but that you name it so. Here’s an example: I see other people feeling emotions, and conclude they’re intelligent. Many humans have falsely perceived emotions in unintelligent things, such as the weather and chance forces. They ascribed intelligence to unseen movers such as Zeus. Isn’t that the kind false positive that CSI is never supposed to generate?
I don't think that the process you describe is exactly CSI (doesn't seem complex enough). It also doesn't seem like a good way to determine if a being is intelligent since, as you note, it generates false positives (as well as false negatives if the being conceals or is unable to express it's emotions). Is it your position that there is no reliable reason to think that other humans are intelligent? I presume not. What exactly is the logic that gives you such confidence that other humans are intelligent?StephenA
November 17, 2014
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Barry, If your comment in 16 is meant to represent Keith's quoted in the OP then your paraphrase missed a rather important part. Keith makes an inference based on the specification and a specific chance hypothesis.wd400
November 17, 2014
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7 keith s November 17, 2014 at 4:58 pm People infer design all the time — sometimes correctly, sometimes incorrectly.
Good so far...
The question isn’t whether design can ever be inferred. It’s whether it can be inferred in the cases under dispute, particularly those involving biological phenomena.
...still good...
I await any ID proponent’s demonstration that the flagellum or any other naturally occurring biological phenomenon is designed.
Train wreck. I await any Darwin Fundamentalist's demonstration that the blind watchmaker made the flagellum or any other naturally occurring biological phenomenon.cantor
November 17, 2014
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LH, of course I don’t write to convince keith s. I write for the lurkers, and everyone – me, you , keith s, the lurkers – knows what keith s’ actual position is. He does not in fact believe that CSI defined as a highly complex pattern (such as one with 500 bits of information) that conforms to a specification exists. But he can’t admit that, because to do so will be to admit the full force of my comment at 16. So what is a materialist to do when the truth is bothersome? Why, employ a Darwinian Debating Device of course. In this instance, keith s is employing Darwinian Debating Device #4: “Desperate Distractions” You see, keith s thinks he will be crushed if he admits what everyone knows (never mind that his admission is somewhat superfluous because everyone knows I represented his position fairly). So instead he latches onto an utter irrelevancy. The substantive issue is whether keiths believes that CSI defined as a highly complex pattern (such as one with 500 bits of information) that conforms to a specification exists. Instead of addressing that issue he desperately distracts away from it by trying to turn the thread into a debate about whether I’ve fairly summarized his position as set forth previously. So I ask him, even if I have did not fairly represent in 16 what you previously said, does what I said in 16 fairly represent your position. I predict more petulance to follow. Barry Arrington
November 17, 2014
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You’ve given away the store today. I understand if you are a little testy. Calm down. That's a powerful piece of projection. I am seriously interested in understanding your position. Perhaps you could discuss it with him rather than dictating it to him and giving him "last chances."Learned Hand
November 17, 2014
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Barry, I can back up my claims. Can you back up yours? You claimed that this was a "summary" of one of my "conflicting positions":
CSI defined as a highly complex pattern (such as one with 500 bits of information) that conforms to a specification does not exist.
I asked you for links, and you said:
keith s @ 18. Look above.
So according to you, there is a comment somewhere in this thread in which I say something equivalent to your "summary". Where is it? Your claim. Your responsibility. Back it up or withdraw it.keith s
November 17, 2014
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So how would you suggest we break out of the circle (assuming I accept your charge that CSI is a circular argument)? How is it not circular, given that you can't get to CSI without assuming that no non-design origin is feasible? (That does assume that we consider CSI a form of design detection, which I had assumed was a universal position in the ID world. Apparently I was wrong about that, but it does seem to be your position.) If we assume arguendo that CSI only comes from intelligent sources, then I think it's circular to define "intelligence" as "that which generates CSI." Our host has demonstrated the lack of grace and charity that attends the rhetorical act of cramming an argument into another person's mouth, though, so please correct me if I'm oversimplifying how you want to define "intelligence." I was aware when I made the challenge that I might be proved wrong, but you have not done so yet. I agree with that; even if I'm right that your idea is circular, that doesn't make it wrong. Circular arguments are useless, but not necessarily wrong. We obviously do know that some things were designed, but how do we know that? Because we watched it happen, we have direct evidence that it happened, or we have enough knowledge of the possible sources to confidently rule out any realistic non-design alternative. (A more careful logician might quibble with that, but I think it's a fair summary of my own process. It's the process ID claims to follow, but without actually being able to rule out non-design origins--again, circularity.) What logical process led you to conclude that other humans are intelligent? Not CSI. It's an interesting question, though! I've never thought about it before you posed it. My gut answer is that I think I am intelligent, and I see other people doing the same sort of things I do. I ascribe to them the same qualities I see in myself. I think. But probability never enters into my thinking about it. I can see how you might formulate a definition of intelligence along those lines, though; maybe you could create a Turing test that asked how likely any particular response would be to come about unintelligently, given its context. But I don't know how you could possibly operationalize that. My own addendum: I typed the above without reading your last paragraph! You anticipated me. But I don't think you're right. Nothing about my process requires CSI, but that you name it so. Here's an example: I see other people feeling emotions, and conclude they're intelligent. Many humans have falsely perceived emotions in unintelligent things, such as the weather and chance forces. They ascribed intelligence to unseen movers such as Zeus. Isn't that the kind false positive that CSI is never supposed to generate? Thanks for the comment, it's an interesting idea.Learned Hand
November 17, 2014
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Last chance: Have I misrepresented your position? Do you in fact believe that CSI defined as a highly complex pattern (such as one with 500 bits of information) that conforms to a specification does exist? If so, I will happily withdraw the claim. It is a pretty simple question. You've given away the store today. I understand if you are a little testy. Calm down. Take a deep breath. I am seriously interested in understanding your position. If you insist on being petulant and refusing to tell us what your position is, then that will be your choice. BTW everyone already knows what the answer is. :-)Barry Arrington
November 17, 2014
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KS: "I didn't say that Barry! Strawman!" BA: "Did I misrepresent your position?" KS: "I didn't say that!"StephenA
November 17, 2014
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CSI detects intelligent design because it only comes from intelligences, who are intelligent because they generate CSI, which detects intelligent design because it only comes from intelligences, who are intelligent because they generate CSI, et cetera ad infinitum.
So how would you suggest we break out of the circle (assuming I accept your charge that CSI is a circular argument)? I was aware when I made the challenge that I might be proved wrong, but you have not done so yet. We obviously do know that some things were designed, but how do we know that? What logical process led you to conclude that other humans are intelligent? Whatever process you use I expect we will find that you are using the concept CSI, though not by that name. Addendum - breaking the circle: There is one case where we can each observe CSI and have independent knowledge that the designer was intelligent. The case where the CSI observed was produced was ourselves. Since we each produce CSI, then when we observe others also producing CSI we can conclude that they have something in common with us. This attribute that we all have in common is what we refer to when we speak of intelligence.StephenA
November 17, 2014
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