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Keith S Shows Learned Hand How a Design Inference Works Using CSI

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In comment 58 to my Actually Observed thread ID opponent keith s shows ID opponent Learned Hand how the design inference works.

To use the coin-flipping example, every sequence of 500 fair coin flips is astronomically improbable, because there are 2^500 possible sequences and all have equally low probability. But obviously we don’t exclaim “Design!” after every 500 coin flips. The missing ingredient is the specification of the target T.

Suppose I specify that T is a sequence of 250 consecutive heads followed by 250 consecutive tails. If I then sit down and proceed to flip that exact sequence, you can be virtually certain that something fishy is going on. In other words, you can reject the chance hypothesis H that the coin is fair and that I am flipping it fairly.

Keiths then goes on to with some mistaken interpretations of Dembski’s work.  But that’s all right.  The important thing is that even one of our most inveterate opponents agrees with the basic thrust of the design inference. We are making progress.

Ironically, later in the post Learned Hand writes:

I think I’ll start a clock on any ID supporter actually testing whether CSI can detect design without knowing (or assuming) in advance whether the subject is designed.

Well, LH, he is far from an ID supporter, but will keiths example work?

Comments
@keiths #84 I went and read your article at TSZ as requested. Having done so, I now think your argument is worse than I originally thought, so why don't you start by addressing what I said and we can go from there as we have time.HeKS
November 18, 2014
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Me_Think The more we get to learn about biological systems the more we become knowledgeable that they have been engineered. Now you guys are welcome to try and dispute this, with ideological drivel that it was caused by unguided processes, you are entirely entitled to your own opinions on this but you are not entitled to your own facts.Andre
November 18, 2014
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Apologies @90 is for Me_ThinkAndre
November 18, 2014
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Learned Hand Just to put this into perspective...... try and find the idea of unguided evolution in this paper...... *Mapou, this one is also for you :) http://www.dtic.ua.es/asignaturas/STF/art18.pdfAndre
November 18, 2014
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Me_Think If you know anything about engineering you would know one properties applied to designed systems is fault tolerance. Biological systems have a degree of fault tolerance built-in.Andre
November 17, 2014
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Keith S @84 You have been refuted numerous times.......Andre
November 17, 2014
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Me_Think..... Are you being obtuse? I made it clear it is a problem for unguided evolution..........Andre
November 17, 2014
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Andre @ 71,
I conclude that it is all front loaded.
So PCD too is front loaded. If ID agent can 'frontload' it and still mimic evolution,why do you think PCD is a problem for ToE ?Me_Think
November 17, 2014
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Tim #73, I pointed out that no one has been able to compute P(T|H) for a naturally occurring biological phenomenon, and you started talking about Hamlet. If you're disputing my claim, you need to come up with a biological example.keith s
November 17, 2014
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HeKS, You might want to do some background reading on my argument before you tackle it. I originally formulated the argument two years ago at TSZ: Things That IDers Don’t Understand, Part 1 — Intelligent Design is not compatible with the evidence for common descent I would have presented it here at UD, but I was banned until Barry's so-called "general amnesty" a few weeks ago. I linked to it here three and a half weeks ago, and UDers have been trying to refute it ever since, on a bunch of different threads.keith s
November 17, 2014
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Learned Hand #70,
Maybe I’m reading too much into his [Ewert's] comments. If he’s tying CSI to extraneous arguments that make evolution impossible, though, isn’t that disclaiming CSI as a design detector?
Yes. To Ewert, CSI is not a tool for detecting design. It's a label you apply after you have detected design (or equivalently, after you have determined that non-design causes are insufficient). You determine that X is specified, and you determine that X is sufficiently complex (by which Dembski means sufficiently improbable under "Darwinian and other material mechanisms"). That allows you to conclude that X is designed. CSI is just an afterthought -- a label you apply to X when it has passed through those hoops.keith s
November 17, 2014
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And the same to you.Learned Hand
November 17, 2014
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Fair enough. Have a safe trip.HeKS
November 17, 2014
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Thanks--don't rush on my account, I fly to the east coast tomorrow and the west coast the day after that; won't be back home until Friday. I'll be in meetings so unless they wrap up early or I get wifi on the plane I may not be engaged until the end of the week.Learned Hand
November 17, 2014
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@Learned Hand #74 I'll try to get back to you tomorrow night or Wednesday. I'll be out of town all day tomorrow.HeKS
November 17, 2014
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@keiths #59 I haven't been around too much lately cause I've been busy with other stuff, but seeing your argument in #59, I have a few questions and then, if I have time, I might address it further in coming days. You say:
3. We know that unguided evolution exists. Even the most rabid IDer/YEC will admit that antibiotic resistance can evolve
This seems to me like a cheat. First, in order for this claim to have any value at all for your argument, we would have to assume that the biological processes that make unguided evolution (if indeed it is unguided) even possible are themselves not designed. A system can be designed to allow for inputs that are not specifically predicted and generate outputs that are not specifically intended, and yet the framework that allows for this to happen can be designed to specifically fulfill this purpose. It's also possible for a system to be designed to generate outputs within certain constraints when it receives one or more of a wide range of predicted inputs. Furthermore, a system can be designed to degrade gracefully when certain functions or data become unavailable, so that the system as a whole can continue functioning in some form, though it sports a lesser array of features, or, alternatively, it can throw up some kind of fatal error that completely crashes the system when core features or data are missing. People who program for the web and for various browsers and devices (desktop, tablet, phone) do this kind of thing all the time, and programming and markup languages include features to make this kind of stuff easier. So, when you say that we know that unguided evolution exists, all we really know is that specific events happen that we couldn't predict in advance, and they sometimes result in relatively minor changes in organisms. We do not know that the systems that allow this to happen were not designed or that the possibility of this happening was not a specifically intended function of the system to allow for biological diversity and adaptation to changing environments. Second, your argument assumes that this "unguided evolution", if it exists, is of a sort that it could, at least in principle, offer some kind of possible explanation for the macroevolutionary changes that would be necessary to produce an objective nested hierarchy naturalistically, even if it would require a large degree of extrapolation. The problem is that the type of "unguided evolution" we observe is not one that is observed to add novel functional information to the genome. It slightly alters and degrades genetic information, and it breaks existing functions or sometimes fixes functions that had previously been broken by simple point mutations, but we do not see it adding brand new complex (in the sense of "many well-matched parts") functionality that didn't exist before. So the type of "unguided evolution" that "even the most rabid IDer/YEC" observes is not of the kind that they would have any reason to think can offer, even in principle, a possible explanation for the macroevolutionary changes needed to produce an ONH naturalistically at any point that the ONH requires a significant increase in functional genetic information. Wherever that would be necessary, any appeal to the known existence of "unguided evolution" as a basic feature of reality would not even simply be an extreme unwarranted extrapolation of the available evidence, but would actually be the misleading invocation of a process that does pretty much exactly the opposite of what we observe "unguided evolution" doing. So, if by your #3 you mean something like this: We know that there exists an unguided natural mechanism of a sort that might, at least in principle, be able to explain the significant increases in functional genetic information at particular nodes of the supposed ONH of life. Then I have to say, no, we don't know of any such thing. We don't know that the apparently "unguided evolution" we observe is not made possible by designed systems intended to allow for that evolution to happen in the first place, and we don't know that there exists any unguided mechanism that could, in principle, account for significant increases in functional genetic information or significant changes in body plans, whereas as we do know of constraints that would seem to prevent such things. Of course, if you want to say that the ONH results from a gradual and unguided degrading of genetic information, that could work, at least to a certain point, and could be viewed as a reasonable extrapolation of the "unguided evolution" we observe. Of course, this raises the question of where the high information-content of the ancestor genome came from in the first place and we would have to account for the places in the hierarchy where a significant increase or change in functional information seems to have arisen.
4. We don’t know that the putative designer exists, so ID is already behind in the race.
We don't begin with a knowledge that the designer exists, but we do know that intelligent design exists as a form of causation, that it is capable of generating significant amounts of functional information, and that it is capable of arranging many parts into complicated relationships that carry out specific functions. We even know that human intelligent design is capable of building molecular machines, as in the work of Dr. James Tour. So, in terms of invoking some kind of causal force or mechanism that is actually known to exist and that could, in principle, explain what we see in nature at various nodes of the alleged ONH, including systems that would allow for the graceful degrading of genetic information, ID is far ahead in the race.
UE is literally trillions of times better than design at explaining the evidence .... 12. If we take that approach and assume, temporarily and for the sake of argument alone, that the designer is responsible for the diversity of life, we can see that ID does not predict an objective nested hierarchy out of the trillions of possibilities.
What are these trillions of possibilities? How did you come up with "trillions", since you say "literally trillions"? Can you give me some examples of how else the designer might have designed life? How many ways might he have designed life if we don't assume that he designed every current species in its current form all at once? How many of those trillions of ways require that the designer ignore efficient and flexible design principles? Or that he endlessly reinvent the wheel? Also, what method are you using to reasonably constrain predictions of what approach the designer might use, and what pattern to life might ensue, without any knowledge or hypothesis of what the designer was wanting to achieve or even what degree of specificity the designer might have had in mind for the species we currently observe? Anyways, those are a few initial thoughts I have about your argument. There's probably not much point in going any further or addressing any other issues until I hear your thoughts on this stuff.HeKS
November 17, 2014
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keiths @8: I haven't read this entire thread, but this jumped out at me and needs to be corrected forcefully:
Nick correctly replied “Not really”, and he pointed out a simple “chance hypothesis” that Salvador was overlooking: that the coins had heads on both sides.
Nonsense. Salvador's example assumed fair coins and coins with heads on one side and tails on the other. Any rational and reasonable individual would understand that this was the case in the example provided. Nick's response was not pointing out some substantive nuance that Sal missed. It was a juvenile, pedantic, hide-behind-word-games, refuse-to-address-the-question kind of behavior we have seen far too many times.Eric Anderson
November 17, 2014
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...an intelligent [agent] is the causeStephenB
November 17, 2014
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KeithS
To argue that something is designed because it is irreducibly complex is not circular, because you can determine that it is IC (according to Behe’s definition) without first determining that it is designed.
Yes, that is correct. So, I have two questions: [a] Did you know that irreducible complexity is a form of CSI? [b] Do you think the following argument is circular? In every known case where CSI is present in an object, an intelligent is the cause. This object contains CSI, Therefore, this object was probably designed by an intelligent agent.StephenB
November 17, 2014
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HeKS @ 64: First of all, ID proponents do not exactly claim that something IS designed because it has CSI. Rather, they tentatively infer design as the BEST EXPLANATION for something that displays CSI. What's the difference? Second, you do not have to know that something is designed before you can attribute CSI to it. In order to attribute CSI to something (at least the type of CSI Dembski is talking about), you simply have to determine that it is highly improbable that it is the result of any known, relevant naturalistic process and that it conforms to some kind of independent specification. It's not just "highly improbable." Dembski treats things that are more improbable than the universal probability boundary as effectively impossible; if you can say they're beyond the boundary you can confidently say they never happened and never will in finite time. (Is that overstating it? I guess I don't actually know if you'd say something beyond the UPB won't ever happen up until the death of the universe, but it doesn't seem relevant.) If CSI requires determining that no cause other than design is viable, then you are making the conclusion that design exists part of CSI's predicate assumptions. Unless you really mean that CSI only takes into account "known" naturalistic processes. In that case, CSI isn't doing anything other than quantifying your assumptions. If you don't know the mass of an object, you can't calculate F=MA. Your limited knowledge doesn't make the term irrelevant, just incalculable. If CSI is really limited by the calculator's knowledge, then it can't claim to be free of false positives anymore--it's going to generate false positives whenever the calculator is ignorant of naturalistic causes that could cause the subject. Consider two people calculating the CSI of a fairy ring, for example. Alice knows all about fungus and says there's no CSI because she understands the naturalistic hypothesis. Beth fell asleep in biology class and has never heard of such a thing as a "fungus." Without any known naturalistic hypothesis, she may well conclude that the ring exhibits CSI--a false positive. The only difference is their relative knowledge. (This assumes that CSI is intended to be at least somewhat objective. If all it means is that something has CSI in the calculator's eyes, then I suppose this isn't as much of a problem, although it again begs the question of what CSI is supposed to be good for.) Excluding unknown causes as irrelevant is also an argument from ignorance. The fact that you don't know what could have caused an effect is not a valid reason for assuming there is no naturalistic explanation. "I don't know how it could have happened" does not logically support "I can assume it did not happen." We can distinguish that from, say, a locked room mystery. If Carol is stabbed in a sealed room and we have to discern how it happened, we won't consider the possibility that the killer teleported in and out of the room. The fact that we don't know for sure whether teleportation is possible doesn't justify ruling it out; the fact that we have independent reasons to believe it's impossible does. So does the fact that we're aware that much more mundane causes have been shown to create effects just as, and even more, surprising. That's a bit off the cuff, so you may find it unpersuasive. Rather, the argument is that we have not actually observed any natural processes ever producing the types of specified effects in question and overcoming the astronomical odds against them doing so, but that we have observed – and do observe – intelligent agency bringing about those kinds of specified effects all the time. Have we? Has anyone ever created a flagella from scratch? This argument might work in the realm of coin-flipping, but de novo creation of biological artifacts isn't something we've seen done by intelligent beings. I happen to think that it probably could be, but ironically I suspect most CSI fans would disagree.Learned Hand
November 17, 2014
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keith s writes:
To calculate CSI, you need to be able to calculate P(T|H). No one has ever been able to do that for a naturally occurring biological phenomenon.
Here is where you sort of lose me. So, I will try to offer you a few simple examples to see if you can help me with the calculation of CSI. I think we all get complexity. The whole bit thing where we are all so lucky that the conservative UPB is agreed to be 500 bits. I also think we get the idea that the specification is prior to the event. Otherwise, we are left drawing targets around arrows already stuck into the wall. Where you lose me is that you SEEM to be saying that all information, because information itself comes out of design, makes the argument circular. keith s, Take, for example, something that is not a naturally occurring biological phenomenon, how about Hamlet, the whole thing. We have seen examples like this before. Could the CSI of Hamlet be calculated? How would you go about doing that WITHOUT first assuming design? Or are you saying it is impossible. If it is possible to calculate the CSI of Hamlet, what methods are used that are not allowed when considering a naturally occurring biological phenomenon? If you could lead me through that, I would appreciate it, and I think you would have actually explained something rather than, with all due respect, played word- and other games.Tim
November 17, 2014
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Learned Hand Please take note; Nobody is saying evolution is impossible, we are saying unguided evolution is impossible.......Andre
November 17, 2014
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Me_Think I conclude that it is all front loaded. The latest example of the collapse of the Galapagos finch species collapse seem to reinforce that, I did not hear or see of any agent coming into the universe to intervene......Andre
November 17, 2014
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What he’s saying, in a nutshell, is that since improbable things happen all the time, we can’t infer design from improbability alone. We also need a specification, and he credits Dembski for elucidating how specification augments improbability in establishing design. Maybe I'm reading too much into his comments. If he's tying CSI to extraneous arguments that make evolution impossible, though, isn't that disclaiming CSI as a design detector?Learned Hand
November 17, 2014
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#66 So that would entail some sort of informational medium being passed from parent to progeny, where it would be translated into phenotypic traits of some sort and lead to the differential reproductive success that drives evolution. Is that correct?Upright BiPed
November 17, 2014
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Andre @ 65
You see it’s really not so much about the material (matter) for me but the principles at play…….. When I look at biological systems and how they work and what they achieve I empirically recognise features that can only arise from an intelligent cause;
So would you please explain how, when and where the ID agent comes and fixes the evolutionary process? Do you think everything is front loaded by agent or it intervenes from time to time?Me_Think
November 17, 2014
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Keith S PCD is an irreducibly complex system, apoptosis, necrosis and autophagy are independently regulated mechanisms that also work together via another unknown mechanism for the net benefit of the organism when they become dysregulated unguided processes take over and the organism dies. Just last week we had to bury a very dear friend of mine's kid because PCD stopped working. It took unguided processes 4 days to kill the little guy. Rip LK......Andre
November 17, 2014
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Upright Biped #61, I am talking about evolution as described by modern evolutionary theory. Essentially Darwinian evolution as you described it plus drift. Douglas Theobald explains why irreducible complexity is not a barrier to evolution.keith s
November 17, 2014
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Keith S I'm going to be very blunt with you today and you may continue to ignore me, who cares right? Your denial of design in especially biological systems, shows us that your motivations are ideological by nature and not by the fact that you don't know what design is. Why are we saying that there is such a thing as design in biological systems in the first place? I'll try and explain my position on this in a clear and concise way as possible. I want to know that there was a time when I reject design in biological systems too, that is important for you to know What do I do for a living? I am an engineer. I build complex systems every day of my life and I arrange parts in very specific ways to achieve desired results. It is my bread and butter so to speak. But how do I equate this to biological systems? You see it’s really not so much about the material (matter) for me but the principles at play........ When I look at biological systems and how they work and what they achieve I empirically recognise features that can only arise from an intelligent cause; 1.) Redundancy Systems 2.) Trade Offs 3.) Management Systems 4.) Backup Systems 5.) Stability Control Systems 6.) Networking Systems 7.) Communication Systems The list is endless, we have not even touched the components and how they work together to achieve desired results. I guess that’s another response altogether…. There is no longer any single reason to try and deny the existence of design in biological systems and such attempt are futile and here is why; nature is incapable of creating these intended systems that serve a purpose to the organism because your version on unguided evolution is a bottom up approach. Organisms can't build them in that way. These types of systems are always pre-planned features and perfectly demonstrates the top down approach in engineering. You Keith S are masterfully engineered and you need to know that!Andre
November 17, 2014
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@keiths #58
To argue that something is designed because it exhibits CSI is circular, because you have to know that it is designed before you can attribute CSI to it.
Maybe I'm misreading you, but it seems to me like there's a lot of confusion being tossed about here over the issue of CSI. As I read your comment above, it does not seem to me to be correct. First of all, ID proponents do not exactly claim that something IS designed because it has CSI. Rather, they tentatively infer design as the BEST EXPLANATION for something that displays CSI. Second, you do not have to know that something is designed before you can attribute CSI to it. In order to attribute CSI to something (at least the type of CSI Dembski is talking about), you simply have to determine that it is highly improbable that it is the result of any known, relevant naturalistic process and that it conforms to some kind of independent specification. What needs to be understood is that this does not mean, by definition, that it could not have been produced by any natural process. It is not logically impossible that some natural process could cause the effect in question. Rather, the argument is that we have not actually observed any natural processes ever producing the types of specified effects in question and overcoming the astronomical odds against them doing so, but that we have observed - and do observe - intelligent agency bringing about those kinds of specified effects all the time. Hence, the reasoning goes that if some effect is calculated to display a high degree of CSI on all chance hypotheses - or, put another away, is found to match an independent specification and also be astronomically improbable with respect to every known natural process that might be proposed to explain it - then design is tentatively considered to be a better explanation of the effect (being the only kind of cause known to be capable of producing it) than an appeal to extreme good fortune that would not be expected to happen even once in the entire history of the universe. There are at least two ways this inference could be falsified: 1) A natural process could be discovered that shows the effect not to be improbable, thereby falsifying the claim that it demonstrates CSI; or 2) A natural process could be demonstrated to bring about specified effects that are highly improbable with respect to that particular natural process, thereby falsifying the claim that CSI implies design for similar and lesser degrees of complexity (improbability). What part of this do you think is a circular argument?HeKS
November 17, 2014
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