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KF Cuts to the Chase (Again)

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My last post elicited some extremely interesting responses. As a reminder, we are considering the following two strings of text, the first of which resulted from haphazard banging on a keyboard and the second of which is the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy:

#1:
OipaFJPSDIOVJN;XDLVMK:DOIFHw;ZD
VZX;Vxsd;ijdgiojadoidfaf;asdfj;asdj[ije888
Sdf;dj;Zsjvo;ai;divn;vkn;dfasdo;gfijSd;fiojsa
dfviojasdgviojao’gijSd’gvijsdsd;ja;dfksdasd
XKLZVsda2398R3495687OipaFJPSDIOVJN
;XDLVMK:DOIFHw;ZDVZX;Vxsd;ijdgiojadoi
Sdf;dj;Zsjvo;ai;divn;vkn;dfasdo;gfijSd;fiojsadfvi
ojasdgviojao’gijSd’gvijssdv.kasd994834234908u
XKLZVsda2398R34956873ACKLVJD;asdkjad
Sd;fjwepuJWEPFIhfasd;asdjf;asdfj;adfjasd;ifj
;asdjaiojaijeriJADOAJSD;FLVJASD;FJASDF;
DOAD;ADFJAdkdkas;489468503-202395ui34

#2:
To be, or not to be, that is the question—
Whether ’tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing, end them? To die, to sleep—
No more; and by a sleep, to say we end
The Heart-ache, and the thousand Natural shocks
That Flesh is heir to? ‘Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep,
To sleep, perchance to Dream; Aye, there’s the rub,
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,

Jeffrey Shallit is on record saying:

String #2’s [Shakespeare] compressed version is bigger and therefore more random than string #1 [keyboard pounding]: exactly the opposite of what Arrington implied!

In my last post I asked various ID critics the following question: Do you agree with Shallit that the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy are ‘more random’ than a string of characters resulting from haphazard banging on a keyboard?”

My thinking has evolved on this point, and upon reflection I have decided it was a meaningless question (to which I also got the answer wrong). I have decided the question is like asking which is more blue, the sky on a cloudless day or Beethoven’s 9th Symphony? Only one of those things partakes of blueness at all. Therefore, asking which of the two things is “more blue” is meaningless.

Similarly, only one of the two strings in question partakes of randomness at all. Therefore, asking which is “more random” is meaningless. It follows that Shallit was more wrong than I thought when he said string #2 was more random than string #1. Shakespeare carefully arranged every single letter in string #2. Therefore, with respect to any meaningful definition of “random,” string #2 exhibits ZERO randomness. Therefore, to speak of it as exhibiting “more” randomness than any other string, much less a string generated by haphazard keyboard banging, is absurd.

KF, as he so often does, cut to the heart of the matter and helped me think this through with his comment 107:

If one has a proposed definition of randomness that assigns the first twelve lines of the Hamlet soliloquy to being even remotely regarded as random, on the face of it, the definition (as used . . . abused?) fails.

KF also points us to this excellent paper: Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information:

Genetic algorithms instruct sophisticated biological organization. Three qualitative kinds of sequence complexity exist: random (RSC), ordered (OSC), and functional (FSC). FSC alone provides algorithmic instruction. Random and Ordered Sequence Complexities lie at opposite ends of the same bi-directional sequence complexity vector. Randomness in sequence space is defined by a lack of Kolmogorov algorithmic compressibility. A sequence is compressible because it contains redundant order and patterns. Law-like cause-and-effect determinism produces highly compressible order. Such forced ordering precludes both information retention and freedom of selection so critical to algorithmic programming and control. Functional Sequence Complexity requires this added programming dimension of uncoerced selection at successive decision nodes in the string. Shannon information theory measures the relative degrees of RSC and OSC. Shannon information theory cannot measure FSC. FSC is invariably associated with all forms of complex biofunction, including biochemical pathways, cycles, positive and negative feedback regulation, and homeostatic metabolism. The algorithmic programming of FSC, not merely its aperiodicity, accounts for biological organization. No empirical evidence exists of either RSC of OSC ever having produced a single instance of sophisticated biological organization. Organization invariably manifests FSC rather than successive random events (RSC) or low-informational self-ordering phenomena (OSC).

A final note: Mark Frank [74] and RObb [76] point to Bill Dembski’s work and appear to suggest that Dembski would agree with Shallit, i.e., that the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy are “more random” than a string of text achieved by banging away at a keyboard, and Daniel King [84] mocks me for failing to realize this.

Gentlemen, when your conclusion is absurd on its face, you really should stop and re-think it before you post it. And Daniel, you should be careful to ensure that you are correct before you mock someone. Otherwise, you look foolish. In response I will state the obvious and give you a clue.

The obvious: Dembski would not agree that the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy are random in any meaningful sense of that word. He would conclude those lines were, without the slightest doubt, designed.

A clue: Re-read Dembski’s work. Here is a line you should start with from one of the papers linked by Robb. “As with Shannon information, there is a disconnect between Kolmogorov complexity and conceptual information.”

Comments
#84 Heks I didn't plan to disappear entirely. It is just this particular debate about randomness that has become excessively time consuming and unproductive. MarkMark Frank
October 6, 2014
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@Mark Frank, I hope you won't disappear entirely. I was hoping to discuss with you some issues related to your comments about Bayesian analysis but I've been busy with work. I'm no expert when it comes to Bayes Theorem, but it seemed to me that some of the comments you were making as to how it should fit into weighing the options in an abductive argument based on prior probabilities may have been problematic (though I think that was in a different thread). Perhaps the opportunity to discuss this stuff will present itself again in the future. Take care, HeKSHeKS
October 6, 2014
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And as a final note in response to Mung I will try to clarify what I meant by #61. There is a difference between declaring things to be random or not random - a binary classification - and declaring things to be more or less random. Wealth (which is referred to above) is a good example. If you have total assets of $10 then you are wealthier than someone who has only $5 but no one would describe you as wealthy. So no one would describe the Hamlet piece as random even though it is more random by some accepted measurs than the piece generated by pounding on a keyboard. Does this makes sense?Mark Frank
October 6, 2014
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Real life has caught up with me and I no longer have time to participate in this debate. Barry has decided that anyone using a definition of random that makes string 1 less random than string 2 is insane. That is a long list including some leading figures in mathematics, information theory and, I would maintain, William Dembski. But in the end that is his decision.Mark Frank
October 6, 2014
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@79 I dis myth writes,
Nobody is suggesting that the Shakespeare words are random
But @26, MF wrote,
I am suggesting that he [Dembski]would find the other string even less random than the soliloquy.
With is logically equivalent to finding the soliloquy more random than gibberish. So, I dis myth, are you going to stick with your statement? Is this one of those "well, I-didn't-mean-purely-random,-just-more-than-gibberish-type" random statements? Furthermore, you imply that purposeful attempts at obtaining random outcomes mean the outcomes are a priori purposeful. Are you really going to stick with that? I smell troll.Tim
October 6, 2014
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MF, (too many comments ago) you asked, "so what?" So according to KC, any gibberish is, exactly because of the "compressability" of the code that produces it, more random than the soliloquy in question. Yet, you have continually insisted that it is less random. In light of this, please clarify your statements.Tim
October 6, 2014
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Nobody is suggesting that the Shakespeare words are random. But without the foreknowledge of English, there is no way that we would know this. Frankly, I forget Barry's original purpose for presenting the two strings. But even by Barry's definition, given after the fact (I.e., without aim or purpose...), the first string absolutely fails the randomness test because he freely admits that he produced the string with the aim and purpose of presenting a series of random characters. Calling people insane and stupid does not change the fact that Barry was wrong.idismyth
October 6, 2014
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DiEb:
J. Shallit writes: ” And the results are clear: string #1 is, as measured by gzip, somewhat less complex than string #2. ” Again, J. Shallit gave one kind of measurement, just highlighting the fact that not everything is “obvious” in information theory.
I get the feeling DiEb would argue we can't really measure it if it's not really there, while otoh Mark Frank would argue that even if we can measure it, that doesn't mean it's really there.Mung
October 6, 2014
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Following the above, supposedly, the quote from Hamlet is more random. So, we do some research: "How often does the term "sleep" appear in a sample of random text? Interestingly, it appears 5 times in a relatively short selection of random text.Silver Asiatic
October 6, 2014
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Statistically, you can take a random sample or you can take a biased (intentionally designed selected) sample. That's another obvious use of randomness vs design. Biased samples are designed to show certain results (i.e. asking public opinion from a sample of people who all voted in favor of the issue in question).Silver Asiatic
October 6, 2014
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StephenA: You could have no money and still be wealthier than the chap who is in debt up to his eyeballs.
But you cannot have more money than the debtor.
BA: If I have absolutely no money how can I have more money than someone else?
Box
October 6, 2014
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Mark Frank @ 61: Mark, this has top rank right up there among the most incoherent arguments you've ever put forth here at UD. For what it's worth, I deleted my initial response and opted for a less mocking path. Would you care to revisit your comments @ 61 and revise them? Perhaps they fail to accurately reflect what you really intended to convey. Fair warning. cheersMung
October 6, 2014
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If I have absolutely no money how can I have more money than someone else? If a string has absolutely no randomness, how can it be “more random” than any other string?
You could have no money and still be wealthier than the chap who is in debt up to his eyeballs. Of course, for that analogy to work there would have to be something that could be considered the opposite of randomness. It would be measured in the same sort of units as randomness (probabilities?), but would be it's opposite. And when this 'anti-randomness' was applied to something random, that thing would become less random. Huh. If you consider design to be a kind of anti-randomness the analogy holds up quite well, at least at first glance. Did not expect that.StephenA
October 6, 2014
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PaV:
It is the fallacy that there is some kind of mathematical language that expresses “information” explicitly and correctly, and that is how all “information” should be gauged.
We should attempt to come up with a name for this fallacy! By analogy, arguing over whether F, C, or K was the proper way to define temperature.Mung
October 6, 2014
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DiEb:
You can earn 1$/year, so, not much at all. Still, you earn more than the chap who gets .02$/year…
If I have absolutely no money how can I have more money than someone else? If a string has absolutely no randomness, how can it be "more random" than any other string?Barry Arrington
October 6, 2014
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idismyth:
But when it is clearly demonstrated that Hamlet’s words are actually more random [than a string of gibberish]. . .
Sigh. Will you please listen to yourself? Barry Arrington
October 6, 2014
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Box is right. I did not ask Dembski a meaningless question.Barry Arrington
October 6, 2014
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This entire string of comments, and those on the previous strings that this one evolved from, are quite hilarious. Barry first tries to demonstrate that it is possible to objectively (mathematically?) identify an intelligently designed string of characters by presenting two character strings, one of them being from Hamlet, by the fact that one is less random than the other (he assumed that it would be Hamlet’s words). But when it is clearly demonstrated that Hamlet’s words are actually more random, he blows a gasket. The only way that you can conclude that Hamlet’s word are less random than the other string is to know in advance that Hamlet’s words were designed. I am sure that this is not the point that Barry was trying to make. After all, what would be the point? But rather than accept this graciously, he goes on the attack, calling people stupid and insane. But before this, he uses the Definition Deficit Disorder tactic. Irony is fun.idismyth
October 6, 2014
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From the OP: "(...) only one of the two strings in question partakes of randomness at all. Therefore, asking which is “more random” is meaningless."
DiEb: Did you ask W. Dembski whether String #2 was more random than String #1?
Box
October 6, 2014
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BA, I always try to answer your question. Here is one for you - again: Did you ask W. Dembski whether String #2 was more random than String #1?DiEb
October 6, 2014
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@BA: You can earn 1$/year, so, not much at all. Still, you earn more than the chap who gets .02$/year... Your string #1 was just not a good example of a random string. Randomness is an important concept, e.g., one would generally advice you against using chunks of string #1 as a password...DiEb
October 6, 2014
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DiEb:
To be precise: J. Shallit said that String #2 was “more random” than String #1, but not that String #2 was random….
So a string can be "more random" than another string without being actually random to any degree at all? Madness.Barry Arrington
October 6, 2014
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Mark Frank:
Yes it is more random than string 1 but that is not the same as saying it is random.
Of course, string 1 is random gibberish achieved by banging at a keyboard. You are literally saying that Hamlet is “more random” than gibberish achieved by banging on a keyboard, and that is insane.
It is recognising that randomness is a matter of degree (and both strings are pretty low on the scale)rather a binary division into random and non-random.
Randomness certainly can be a matter of degree, which I have admitted all along. It does not follow that ALL strings of text are random to some degree, which is what you are saying.
However, that is only one definition of random based on the prior knowledge that the string is designed and the variations from Shakespeare original were not random fluctuations in the printing process.
A complete misrepresentation of what I have written. Read comment 44 again.
If you want to say that all the people working on these other definitions are wasting their time because it drains the word “random” of any meaning I guess that is your privilege.
I don’t know to whom you are referring, but it is an objective fact that anyone who says a string from Hamlet is “random” in any meaningful sense of that word is stupid or insane.Barry Arrington
October 6, 2014
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Barry, would you care to join R0bb and I here: https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/heks-strikes-gold-again-or-why-strong-evidence-of-design-is-so-often-stoutly-resisted-or-dismissed/#comment-518021 We've been discussing your challenge about a natural process producing 500 bits of CSI and I can't seem to convince him that you meant a natural process had to produce a pattern with 500 bits of CSI in a calculation that is relative to the actual natural process that produced it, not in a calculation based on a process that didn't produce it.HeKS
October 6, 2014
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#57 Cantor Yes it is more random than string 1 but that is not the same as saying it is random. A mouse is more intelligent than an ant - but that is not the same as saying a mouse is intelligent. It is recognising that randomness is a matter of degree (and both strings are pretty low on the scale)rather a binary division into random and non-random.Mark Frank
October 6, 2014
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BA  44
Mark, I am going to sum up with this. Concluding that Hamlet is totally non-random has the benefit of corresponding with the glaringly obvious fact of the matter. As a corollary to that observation, any analysis that leads to a conclusion that Hamlet is “random” in any degree (i.e., more or less random than some other string) drains the concept of “random” of all practical meaning.
Well as we said all along, it depends what you mean by random. If you mean every single character was placed as intended by Shakespeare then that is not true. If he was to be shown the text now it would appear to him as if it had undergone a certain amount of randomisation. If you mean that every character was placed deliberately by someone for a reason then that is true. However, that is only one definition of random based on the prior knowledge that the string is designed and the variations from Shakespeare original were not random fluctuations in the printing process. There are other defnitions, including Kolmogorov complexity. If you want to say that all the people working on these other definitions are wasting their time because it drains the word “random” of any meaning I guess that is your privilege.Mark Frank
October 6, 2014
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55 Mark Frank October 6, 2014 at 2:27 pm ...no one has claimed that the Hamlet excerpt is random.
???
String #2's [Shakespeare] compressed version is bigger and therefore more *random* than string #1 [keyboard pounding]: exactly the opposite of what Arrington implied!
.cantor
October 6, 2014
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#54 Tim Sorry I misread your comment - but now I just don't see your point. So any gibberish would be an acceptable output from TYPE GIBBERISH - so what?Mark Frank
October 6, 2014
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Barry What you report about Dembski appears to contradict what he has written in the papers but there is a fair amount of wriggle room in your words. After all no one has claimed that the Hamlet excerpt is random. Dembski is going to tend to be loyal to a fellow IDist, his response is going to be framed by the way you made the enquiry, and then you are going to interpret what he wrote. All of these things will contribute to distortion of the message. Did you communicate by e-mail? If so, perhaps you could reproduce the dialogue (put it somewhere and link to it rather than a massive comment) so we can see exactly what he wrote? Until then I can only go by what he has written for public view not what you report he wrote.Mark Frank
October 6, 2014
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MF, I cite myself:
However, isn’t it the point of the BA’s typed gibberish that any gibberish would be an acceptable string for the command (written professionally in C++) TYPE GIBBERISH. . . Please, clarify your position because right now it seems as though you have tried to smuggle in the specificity.
To which you replied, in part,
The command “TYPE GIBBERISH” cannot be relied upon to produce a specific string of gibberish . . .
which completely ignored my point! Please, replace "a specific" with "any" (again, helpfully italicized and bold) and clarify your position. I fear the accusation of smuggling approaches. Oh, and let's not waste time on how "TYPE GIBBERISH" would be coded. Can we not agree that such code would be far more compressed than that for the soliloquy?Tim
October 6, 2014
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