Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

KF Cuts to the Chase (Again)

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My last post elicited some extremely interesting responses. As a reminder, we are considering the following two strings of text, the first of which resulted from haphazard banging on a keyboard and the second of which is the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy:

#1:
OipaFJPSDIOVJN;XDLVMK:DOIFHw;ZD
VZX;Vxsd;ijdgiojadoidfaf;asdfj;asdj[ije888
Sdf;dj;Zsjvo;ai;divn;vkn;dfasdo;gfijSd;fiojsa
dfviojasdgviojao’gijSd’gvijsdsd;ja;dfksdasd
XKLZVsda2398R3495687OipaFJPSDIOVJN
;XDLVMK:DOIFHw;ZDVZX;Vxsd;ijdgiojadoi
Sdf;dj;Zsjvo;ai;divn;vkn;dfasdo;gfijSd;fiojsadfvi
ojasdgviojao’gijSd’gvijssdv.kasd994834234908u
XKLZVsda2398R34956873ACKLVJD;asdkjad
Sd;fjwepuJWEPFIhfasd;asdjf;asdfj;adfjasd;ifj
;asdjaiojaijeriJADOAJSD;FLVJASD;FJASDF;
DOAD;ADFJAdkdkas;489468503-202395ui34

#2:
To be, or not to be, that is the question—
Whether ’tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing, end them? To die, to sleep—
No more; and by a sleep, to say we end
The Heart-ache, and the thousand Natural shocks
That Flesh is heir to? ‘Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep,
To sleep, perchance to Dream; Aye, there’s the rub,
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,

Jeffrey Shallit is on record saying:

String #2’s [Shakespeare] compressed version is bigger and therefore more random than string #1 [keyboard pounding]: exactly the opposite of what Arrington implied!

In my last post I asked various ID critics the following question: Do you agree with Shallit that the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy are ‘more random’ than a string of characters resulting from haphazard banging on a keyboard?”

My thinking has evolved on this point, and upon reflection I have decided it was a meaningless question (to which I also got the answer wrong). I have decided the question is like asking which is more blue, the sky on a cloudless day or Beethoven’s 9th Symphony? Only one of those things partakes of blueness at all. Therefore, asking which of the two things is “more blue” is meaningless.

Similarly, only one of the two strings in question partakes of randomness at all. Therefore, asking which is “more random” is meaningless. It follows that Shallit was more wrong than I thought when he said string #2 was more random than string #1. Shakespeare carefully arranged every single letter in string #2. Therefore, with respect to any meaningful definition of “random,” string #2 exhibits ZERO randomness. Therefore, to speak of it as exhibiting “more” randomness than any other string, much less a string generated by haphazard keyboard banging, is absurd.

KF, as he so often does, cut to the heart of the matter and helped me think this through with his comment 107:

If one has a proposed definition of randomness that assigns the first twelve lines of the Hamlet soliloquy to being even remotely regarded as random, on the face of it, the definition (as used . . . abused?) fails.

KF also points us to this excellent paper: Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information:

Genetic algorithms instruct sophisticated biological organization. Three qualitative kinds of sequence complexity exist: random (RSC), ordered (OSC), and functional (FSC). FSC alone provides algorithmic instruction. Random and Ordered Sequence Complexities lie at opposite ends of the same bi-directional sequence complexity vector. Randomness in sequence space is defined by a lack of Kolmogorov algorithmic compressibility. A sequence is compressible because it contains redundant order and patterns. Law-like cause-and-effect determinism produces highly compressible order. Such forced ordering precludes both information retention and freedom of selection so critical to algorithmic programming and control. Functional Sequence Complexity requires this added programming dimension of uncoerced selection at successive decision nodes in the string. Shannon information theory measures the relative degrees of RSC and OSC. Shannon information theory cannot measure FSC. FSC is invariably associated with all forms of complex biofunction, including biochemical pathways, cycles, positive and negative feedback regulation, and homeostatic metabolism. The algorithmic programming of FSC, not merely its aperiodicity, accounts for biological organization. No empirical evidence exists of either RSC of OSC ever having produced a single instance of sophisticated biological organization. Organization invariably manifests FSC rather than successive random events (RSC) or low-informational self-ordering phenomena (OSC).

A final note: Mark Frank [74] and RObb [76] point to Bill Dembski’s work and appear to suggest that Dembski would agree with Shallit, i.e., that the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy are “more random” than a string of text achieved by banging away at a keyboard, and Daniel King [84] mocks me for failing to realize this.

Gentlemen, when your conclusion is absurd on its face, you really should stop and re-think it before you post it. And Daniel, you should be careful to ensure that you are correct before you mock someone. Otherwise, you look foolish. In response I will state the obvious and give you a clue.

The obvious: Dembski would not agree that the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy are random in any meaningful sense of that word. He would conclude those lines were, without the slightest doubt, designed.

A clue: Re-read Dembski’s work. Here is a line you should start with from one of the papers linked by Robb. “As with Shannon information, there is a disconnect between Kolmogorov complexity and conceptual information.”

Comments
As I pointed out, it is only "random" given the knowledge of the entropy of the processes which produced them. Sebestyn said as much in two places. We know about Shakespeare and keyboard mashing, which is why we make an informal judgement that the latter is random. For this analogy to hold for DNA (which I guess is what's in the background here), we need to know the statistics of sequences that "intelligent sources" produce. But that would beg the question. It would be good to have a repo of code samples or proofs, so long as we maintain that ID is mathematical. Otherwise, we can argue from intuition and experience, in a human way. But ID can't draw upon the authoritative status of maths to garner support, only to jettison it when specifies are requested. What's it to be?Splatter
October 6, 2014
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It is beyond extraordinary; it surpasses dumbfounding, that anyone would suggest, much less insist upon, calling Hamlet’s soliloquy “random” in any meaningful sense of that word.
That's just a strawman: no one claimed that Hamlet's verses were random.DiEb
October 6, 2014
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A few notes from the sidelines: 1) There is more than one conception of randomness. You are focusing on the philosophical concept of randomness, but there are other, valid concepts of randomness. A few conceptions: a) philosophical randomness = unplanned, haphazard b) correlational = two thing are random with respect to each other if they are uncorrelated c) predictability = a process is random if its output is unpredictable Shallit is using (c), which is understandable, since (c) is the definition used in most conceptions of Specified Complexity and other Dembski-ish methodologies. 2) Now, agents are expected to have both specification and complexity. Complexity means that the results are not predictable (i.e. the (c) definition of randomness - it should lack compressibility). Specification, though, means that it conforms to some sort of a prior pattern. Conforming to a pattern means that it is, in fact, compressible. 3) Most stand-ins for Kolmogorov complexity (i.e. gzip) are not very good for detecting specification. In Algorithmic Specified Complexity, Ewert noted that the specifications for intelligent processes usually have shorter descriptions but longer run-time. This is not the sort of compression achievable with gzip. For instance, a partial specification for a valid computer program would be "one that does not have any infinite loops". This is a small specification, but the run-time complexity for computing it is basically infinite. Therefore, programs like gzip can't compress based on this specification. Ewert noted that law-like models have much simpler run-time models. This is the sort of compression that gzip is capable of, and, in fact, Shallit found a law-like model in the random text (Arrington had strings of "asd" from banging on his keyboard. 4) Also in Algorithmic Specified Complexity Ewert notes that compressibility for agent-produced material can be greatly aided by a "context". Humans operate within contexts, and knowing the operating context greatly improves compressibility. In fact, the additional compressibility can help you determine if you are using the right context or not. I don't have the data on this, but I imagine that if you used an English dictionary (which would be a partial specification for Shakespeare), you would find his work to be more compressible. 5) Just as a summary side-note - creativity is both predictable and unpredictable. As some have said, it borders on the edge between chaos and predictability. Thus, specified complexity and similar ideas balance these notions. When randomness is defined as unpredictability, creativity looks random, because it is unpredictable. When randomness is defined as unplanned, creativity looks nonrandom, because it is goal-directed and contextual.johnnyb
October 6, 2014
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MF: "This is quite extraordinary." It is beyond extraordinary; it surpasses dumbfounding, that anyone would suggest, much less insist upon, calling Hamlet's soliloquy "random" in any meaningful sense of that word. Mark, perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Are you suggesting that Dembski would conclude that Hamlet's soliloquy is random?Barry Arrington
October 6, 2014
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#19 Box Well I thought I understood what you said but your second comment confuses me. You have repeated your original line and inserted some text in bold that seems unrelated. It also raise some questions. 1) No one declared what "the issue at hand" is. I thought it was all about whether one piece of text was more random than the other are you implying it is something else? 2) Why do you say "flatly ignore specified information" when I wrote "Kolgomorov complexity is not sufficient as a measure of information but it is a necessary component of his measure (which is specified complexity)" In summary - I have no idea why you think measuring the compressibility is just silly, but if it is silly then so is William Dembski who makes it central to his ideas on specific complexity and information.Mark Frank
October 6, 2014
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MF, I cite myself as clipped in Op by BA as headlined:
If one has a proposed definition of randomness that assigns the first twelve lines of the Hamlet soliloquy to being even remotely regarded as random, on the face of it, the definition (as used . . . abused?) fails.
Please pay attention to the clip and discussion here with the illustration from the 9 year old peer reviewed paper by Trevors and Abel, namely Fig 4 that shows the relevant contrasts to randomness for say genome strings [text strings are linguistically functional] in the context of K-compression. KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2014
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Mark Frank #18, you are obviously a bright person, so you understood what I meant, didn't you? .... Ok, here it goes:
It follows that meassuring the compressibility of the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy ... [and leave it at that / and flatly ignore the specified information, as if this is not central to the issue at hand / and simply declare Hamlet’s soliloquy to be "more random" than string #1] .... is just silly.
Box
October 6, 2014
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#17 Box
It follows that meassuring the compressibility of the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy is just silly.
Did you read the rest of my comment (or even better Dembski's paper)? Dembski says that Kolgomorov complexity is not sufficient as a measure of information but it is a necessary component of his measure (which is specified complexity). So he would measure the compressibility of the soliloquy as part of the process of assessing its information content.Mark Frank
October 6, 2014
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MF #11: What Dembski is saying here is that Kolmogorov complexity is not a sufficient measure of his concept of information.
It follows that meassuring the compressibility of the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy is just silly.Box
October 6, 2014
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PS: As posts in this thread testify, intelligently directed configuration routinely solves that needle in the haystack problem, by using insight, knowledge and skill. So, FSCO/I becomes a reliable signature of design. Glorified common sense rather than rocket science, but very powerful.kairosfocus
October 6, 2014
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Seb, the common implicit demand that the design inference be a universal decoder algorithm (or in fact a one size fits all universal algorithm) is an imposition of what a simple glance at theory of computation would tell us is patently infeasible. Instead, the design inference starts form show us function that is functionally specific, then on that we can see why beyond a modest threshold of complexity of the relevant equivalent descriptive string under some code [setting up the yes/no q's chain to specify], and given that specific function results from specific and rare configuration, soon the atomic and temporal resources of the solar system or observable cosmos are overwhelmed on the assumption of blind search using chance and mechanical necessity only. As in looking for a needle in an astronomically large haystack when constrained to pick a one-straw sized sample at hazard. KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2014
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F/N: K-compressibility reflects the empirical fact that orderly patterns are highly compressible and real world codes have significant redundancy. A truly random pattern, will resist encoding, and a flat random one the most. So, the shortest way to represent the string is to quote it. In the case of BA's string 1, you can get similar strings fairly easily, but the same string pretty much requires quoting it . . . I suspect elaborate algors that capture its redundancies and try to encode, to decompress will take more info than is required to simply cite it. By contrast, quote the first twelve lines of Hamlet's soliloquy (for someone with reasonable access) can compress string 2 very well thank you. Sort of like the story of Edison asking a Mathematician to give him the volume of a light bulb. Days later the Mathematician was busy at work, doubtless trying to specify a function to give the solid of revolution that would be flexible and well behaved, perhaps even modelling blowing and rolling. Edison then fetched a beaker and dipped the bulb in, reading off the differential. Sometimes, common sense is good enough. KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2014
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PS: Just to remind, good dictionaries such as AmHD draw up their definitions by summarising usage by credibly informed speakers or writers . . . i.e. dictionary definition is an inductive exercise, pointing back to general patterns of serious usage and careful distinctions in that usage. So, we need to again focus, rather than cavalierly dismiss:
ran·dom (rndm) adj. 1. Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective: random movements. See Synonyms at chance. 2. Mathematics & Statistics Of or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution. 3. Of or relating to an event in which all outcomes are equally likely, as in the testing of a blood sample for the presence of a substance. Idiom: at random Without a governing design, method, or purpose; unsystematically: chose a card at random from the deck. [From at random, by chance, at great speed, from Middle English randon, speed, violence, from Old French, from randir, to run, of Germanic origin.] random·ly adv. random·ness n. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Notice, a flat-random distribution is only the third sense of "random," here. PPS: Under Chance, we see:
chance (chns) n. 1. a. The unknown and unpredictable element in happenings that seems to have no assignable cause. [--> note, ASSIGNABLE] b. A force assumed to cause events that cannot be foreseen or controlled; luck: Chance will determine the outcome. 2. The likelihood of something happening; possibility or probability. Often used in the plural: Chances are good that you will win. Is there any chance of rain? 3. An accidental or unpredictable event. 4. A favorable set of circumstances; an opportunity: a chance to escape. 5. A risk or hazard; a gamble: took a chance that the ice would hold me. 6. Games A raffle or lottery ticket. 7. Baseball An opportunity to make a putout or an assist that counts as an error if unsuccessful. adj. Caused by or ascribable to chance; unexpected, random, or casual: a chance encounter; a chance result. v. chanced, chanc·ing, chanc·es v.intr. To come about by chance; occur: It chanced that the train was late that day. v.tr. To take the risk or hazard of: not willing to chance it. Phrasal Verb: chance on/upon To find or meet accidentally; happen upon: While in Paris we chanced on two old friends. Idioms: by chance 1. Without plan; accidentally: They met by chance on a plane. 2. Possibly; perchance: Is he, by chance, her brother? on the off chance In the slight hope or possibility. [Middle English, unexpected event, from Old French, from Vulgar Latin *cadentia, from Latin cadns, cadent-, present participle of cadere, to fall, befall; see kad- in Indo-European roots.] Synonyms: chance, random, casual, haphazard, desultory These adjectives apply to what is determined not by deliberation but by accident. Chance stresses lack of premeditation: a chance meeting with a friend. Random implies the absence of a specific pattern or objective: took a random guess. Casual often suggests an absence of due concern: a casual observation. Haphazard implies a carelessness or a willful leaving to chance: a haphazard plan of action. Desultory suggests a shifting about from one thing to another that reflects a lack of method: a desultory conversation. See Also Synonyms at happen, opportunity. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
kairosfocus
October 6, 2014
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REC: Turning the first string after the fact into a key, is not turning it into FSCO/I. There is no inherent functional constraint on the original string that would demand that its config be close to what it is in Hamming space or it will not work. Before you impose a second order procedure of search via Google. Functionally specific complex organisation and associated information, FSCO/I, is not a paint the target after the fact on where the arrow landed exercise. KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2014
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Barry
Re-read Dembski’s work. Here is a line you should start with from one of the papers linked by Robb. “As with Shannon information, there is a disconnect between Kolmogorov complexity and conceptual information.”
This is quite extraordinary. I cannot decide whether you  did not read Dembski’s paper, read it and did not understand it, or just hoped no one would follow up the reference.  What Dembski is saying here is that Kolmogorov complexity is not a sufficient measure of his concept of information. He does use it as a measure/definition of random:
Kolmogorov complexity measures the degree to which a given bitstring follows a pattern. The more a bitstring follows a pattern, the shorter the program required to reproduce it. In contrast, if a bitstring exhibits no patterns, it is simply random, and a much longer program will be required to produce it (p3)
Also this definition of random - Kolmogorov complexity continues to play a vital role in his definition of information. It is just that he claims it is not sufficient and adds additional ideas to it.Mark Frank
October 6, 2014
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I wonder which would be classified as more random.
It really depends on what aspect you focus on. If you focus on the amount of different characters and their order, string 1 is certainly more "random". However, if you imply that there's a code behind it, it could theoretically be the opposite way around (albeit rather unlikely). You could use one-time pad encryption to encode practically every string in the A's, but of course the practical use of this is nil. In the end everything hinges on the additional information you have about the strings in question. The quote from Shakespeare certainly has zero randomness as correctly demonstrated, simply because we know the "code" works and what it represents. We even know how the string came into existence although this is irrelevant to the question wether the string is random or not. DNA is similar. We know how it works (at least rudimentary) and what it does. And although we don't know when and how it came into existence, we can tell for certain that it is a code with a randomness level that's low enough to provide the data to form living beings. With the "famous sequence" it's also the same only that this time we know there's no code underlying, but only because we've been told that it was made by haphazard banging on the keyboard. If we didn't know that we certainly couldn't tell from the string itself if it is a code at all and if it represents something meaningful. Another example would be this: "Piet" Code Example It may look like a random picture made with "MS Paint" but in fact it represents program code in the language "Piet" that solves the "Towers of Hanoi" problem. More examples To sum it up: In my opinion it is impossible to derive the randomness of any given string using mathematical methods without knowing the code. SebestyenSebestyen
October 6, 2014
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PaV: What Splatter and, in a very exagerrated way, Shallit are doing is simply insisting that their favorite notion of what “information” is the ‘be-all and end-all’ of information theorizing. No, I didn't insist on any particular definition of terms. I was careful to make that explicit. I supplied one possible interpretation and pointed to the mathematical framework I'd work it out in. This interpretation made sense of what Barry was saying, so I was being charitable. Why all the hostility? All I am saying is, show me, for this example, using your own preferred methods, how you reached the conclusion you did. I'm not sure how else to put that. In any other mathematical scenario a request for clarification wouldnt meet such resistance, except perhaps evolution yarn-spinners themselves. Mapou, thank you for replying to my earlier post where I provided some code to show that one part of a bit-genome could evolve to protect another part of the genome, rather than contribute to fitness directly. The purpose of the exercise was to show that people who thought a repair mechanism could coevolve weren't "out to lunch". They were probably just thinking along these lines. I am aware that the bit-for-bit correction mechanism I coded in was a priori. On the other hand, it is simple. So far, with one or two exceptions, I have provided some code or maths to explain my ideas. I think this removes ambiguity from the proceedings - that's why I made the original comment. People on here could stand to be a little politer - especially to newcomers (and advocates of their one position no less!)Splatter
October 5, 2014
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Yeah. It's all random enough for all practical and other analytical purposes. And I'm supporting the point that people should not be sidetracked with the detectability of underlying bias in Barry's random text. I suggest if anyone wants to make random appearing text again here, them maybe just use a SHA 256 or better hash algorithm... And concatnate several different hashes to avoid people red herringing. :-PJGuy
October 5, 2014
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But JGuy at 6, such a bias must necessarily be far less. No? The difficulty is that human beings are so full of information that much of it likely leaks out unintended, so we might consider finding a comparatively simple means of generating strings of nonsense - to reduce the information bias associated with anything human. Something that couldn't possibly have meant anything, where there is nothing further to detect.News
October 5, 2014
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Any system which has some kind of biases, as you described, I think can not produce a truly random sequence. Perhaps especially where the biases are periodic. As such, I can't think of anything that can produce a truly random sequence. Perhaps, the best that I've seen is using a particle detector and using the clicks from the measurement device as a randomness generator. But that probably even has some biases... such as maybe somewhat periodic fluctuations in neutrino passing through the system which might affect radioactive decay rates at a minimal amount..but it is some.JGuy
October 5, 2014
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REC@1 As you know, the tracking function is Google's function. What you are describing is how identifiable the sequence is posthoc.... That is more or less a measurement of the sequence's uniqueness - not any obvious function. If you make it useful in the way described, then you are adding an intelligently applied use of the existing Google search function. And the sequence would not do anything in your scenario apart from you incorporating intelligence. As such, in your scenario, you have taken something essentially random, and incorporated it into a mechanism you pieced together using intelligence and intention - e.g. you intend to find certain conversations on the web. Now, if I found that sequence in a program - which essentially your algorithm is, then I would call THAT algorithm intelligently designed. But the sequence alone has no function apart from your new mechanism. Just my thoughts. Anyway, your comment seems like a bunch of bamboozle to me.JGuy
October 5, 2014
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A minor question: Haphazard banging on a keyboard is, for a number of reasons, not strictly random. Consider physical factors, including keyboard layout (one assumes the QWERTYUIOP board was used here), size of board and hand, etc., personal patterns in when to move right or left, idiosyncratic decisions about what would produce greater randomness ... doubtless others that sharp minds can think of. The random part is: No meaning is associated with the input, and therefore no meaning is associated with the output. You were trying to produce enough characters for a demo but did not intend to convey any information. So it would be quite remarkable if the output did in fact convey any information. Something like Sagan's Contact? ;) But, for example, if someone asked me to do the same random characters demo - not only would I produce different sets of characters, but a neuroscientist might be able, by studying dozens of tests of both of us, predict with 98.99% accuracy which of us typed each. The randomness refers to the fact that no intended information is conveyed. But the information that O'Leary typed it and not Arrington might happen to be discernible anyway. That's information too, though it can be discerned without attributing any significance to the text typed. Why I ask: What about random number generators? Would they be any use here? They might not have the same problem that human examples do, that the human being naturally has experiences and habits that could unintentionally impart information.News
October 5, 2014
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This comment by Splatter, . . .
Maths is central to solving this matter. Informal ideas about randomness are irrelevant.
. . . positions the entire discussion. What Splatter is unable to see is this: Kolmogorov Complexity is nothing more than an instance where someone has taken their "informal ideas" regarding "information," and has attempted to make these "ideas" formal using mathematical language and symbols. It is a mathematically formalized intuition about what complexity and information are. Meanwhile, Shallit remains blindly attached to Kolmogorov Complexity despite its obvious shortcomings. What Splatter and, in a very exagerrated way, Shallit are doing is simply insisting that their favorite notion of what "information" is the 'be-all and end-all' of information theorizing. Ironically, what Dembski has done is exactly this: he has taken his intuition about what 'information' is and given it a formal, mathematical expression. So, when Dembski proposes his "ideas" (intuitions) about "information," his "math" is attacked. And, when Shallit's "math" is attacked, we're told that this attack is no more than "informal ideas." (You can't win with Darwinists and materialists because they are fully committed to their way of thinking, no matter how illogical they become at times. This is why Dembski isn't publishing books on ID anymore: the willful nonacceptance of his proposals by those who claim to be mathematicians and scientists, so far has 'science' become degraded.) Shallit, who, apparently, willfully misunderstands Dembski's works instead of making any kind of effort to truly understand it, sticks to the inanity of his beloved Kolmogorov approach to 'information.' To Shallit--and I assure of this from personal experience---String#1 and String#2 are no different from one another. He does not believe in "patterns." To him, there are simply 'strings.' He wouldn't recognize a "pattern" if it hit him in the face. Once you understand this, then you will understand that from atop his "Ivory Tower," Shallit is now looking down his nose at you, Barry, and the rest of us here at UD. He refuses to see how wrong he is about Dembski's works, about how poorly he understands Dembski, and how silly he looks in doing so. Let's hear it for the willfully blind!PaV
October 5, 2014
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I wonder which would be classified as more random. #1 (yes, now a becoming famous sequence:P But here taken as it was first presented): OipaFJPSDIOVJN;XDLVMK:DOIFHw;ZD VZX;Vxsd;ijdgiojadoidfaf;asdfj;asdj[ije888 Sdf;dj;Zsjvo;ai;divn;vkn;dfasdo;gfijSd;fiojsa dfviojasdgviojao’gijSd’gvijsdsd;ja;dfksdasd XKLZVsda2398R3495687OipaFJPSDIOVJN ;XDLVMK:DOIFHw;ZDVZX;Vxsd;ijdgiojadoi Sdf;dj;Zsjvo;ai;divn;vkn;dfasdo;gfijSd;fiojsadfvi ojasdgviojao’gijSd’gvijssdv.kasd994834234908u XKLZVsda2398R34956873ACKLVJD;asdkjad Sd;fjwepuJWEPFIhfasd;asdjf;asdfj;adfjasd;ifj ;asdjaiojaijeriJADOAJSD;FLVJASD;FJASDF; DOAD;ADFJAdkdkas;489468503-202395ui34 This one? ________________________________ #2 (where each letter below could have been any...but it just so happens that they are not different): AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ...or this one? There are a lot more characters in the second sequence. Yes, I know the answer is obvious, but I think given the question... whether any might argue #2 is more random would be interesting to know.JGuy
October 5, 2014
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I think we also would have to conclude the first passage is designed. It shows complexity--(more or less vs. random is debated, but it is complex). It also has a specified function. Copying and pasting it into google allows tracking of all UD posts where it has been used, and all posts elsewhere commenting on it. So Barry has produced complex, specified information by "randomly" banging on his keyboard.REC
October 5, 2014
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