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KF Cuts to the Chase (Again)

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My last post elicited some extremely interesting responses. As a reminder, we are considering the following two strings of text, the first of which resulted from haphazard banging on a keyboard and the second of which is the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy:

#1:
OipaFJPSDIOVJN;XDLVMK:DOIFHw;ZD
VZX;Vxsd;ijdgiojadoidfaf;asdfj;asdj[ije888
Sdf;dj;Zsjvo;ai;divn;vkn;dfasdo;gfijSd;fiojsa
dfviojasdgviojao’gijSd’gvijsdsd;ja;dfksdasd
XKLZVsda2398R3495687OipaFJPSDIOVJN
;XDLVMK:DOIFHw;ZDVZX;Vxsd;ijdgiojadoi
Sdf;dj;Zsjvo;ai;divn;vkn;dfasdo;gfijSd;fiojsadfvi
ojasdgviojao’gijSd’gvijssdv.kasd994834234908u
XKLZVsda2398R34956873ACKLVJD;asdkjad
Sd;fjwepuJWEPFIhfasd;asdjf;asdfj;adfjasd;ifj
;asdjaiojaijeriJADOAJSD;FLVJASD;FJASDF;
DOAD;ADFJAdkdkas;489468503-202395ui34

#2:
To be, or not to be, that is the question—
Whether ’tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing, end them? To die, to sleep—
No more; and by a sleep, to say we end
The Heart-ache, and the thousand Natural shocks
That Flesh is heir to? ‘Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep,
To sleep, perchance to Dream; Aye, there’s the rub,
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,

Jeffrey Shallit is on record saying:

String #2’s [Shakespeare] compressed version is bigger and therefore more random than string #1 [keyboard pounding]: exactly the opposite of what Arrington implied!

In my last post I asked various ID critics the following question: Do you agree with Shallit that the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy are ‘more random’ than a string of characters resulting from haphazard banging on a keyboard?”

My thinking has evolved on this point, and upon reflection I have decided it was a meaningless question (to which I also got the answer wrong). I have decided the question is like asking which is more blue, the sky on a cloudless day or Beethoven’s 9th Symphony? Only one of those things partakes of blueness at all. Therefore, asking which of the two things is “more blue” is meaningless.

Similarly, only one of the two strings in question partakes of randomness at all. Therefore, asking which is “more random” is meaningless. It follows that Shallit was more wrong than I thought when he said string #2 was more random than string #1. Shakespeare carefully arranged every single letter in string #2. Therefore, with respect to any meaningful definition of “random,” string #2 exhibits ZERO randomness. Therefore, to speak of it as exhibiting “more” randomness than any other string, much less a string generated by haphazard keyboard banging, is absurd.

KF, as he so often does, cut to the heart of the matter and helped me think this through with his comment 107:

If one has a proposed definition of randomness that assigns the first twelve lines of the Hamlet soliloquy to being even remotely regarded as random, on the face of it, the definition (as used . . . abused?) fails.

KF also points us to this excellent paper: Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information:

Genetic algorithms instruct sophisticated biological organization. Three qualitative kinds of sequence complexity exist: random (RSC), ordered (OSC), and functional (FSC). FSC alone provides algorithmic instruction. Random and Ordered Sequence Complexities lie at opposite ends of the same bi-directional sequence complexity vector. Randomness in sequence space is defined by a lack of Kolmogorov algorithmic compressibility. A sequence is compressible because it contains redundant order and patterns. Law-like cause-and-effect determinism produces highly compressible order. Such forced ordering precludes both information retention and freedom of selection so critical to algorithmic programming and control. Functional Sequence Complexity requires this added programming dimension of uncoerced selection at successive decision nodes in the string. Shannon information theory measures the relative degrees of RSC and OSC. Shannon information theory cannot measure FSC. FSC is invariably associated with all forms of complex biofunction, including biochemical pathways, cycles, positive and negative feedback regulation, and homeostatic metabolism. The algorithmic programming of FSC, not merely its aperiodicity, accounts for biological organization. No empirical evidence exists of either RSC of OSC ever having produced a single instance of sophisticated biological organization. Organization invariably manifests FSC rather than successive random events (RSC) or low-informational self-ordering phenomena (OSC).

A final note: Mark Frank [74] and RObb [76] point to Bill Dembski’s work and appear to suggest that Dembski would agree with Shallit, i.e., that the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy are “more random” than a string of text achieved by banging away at a keyboard, and Daniel King [84] mocks me for failing to realize this.

Gentlemen, when your conclusion is absurd on its face, you really should stop and re-think it before you post it. And Daniel, you should be careful to ensure that you are correct before you mock someone. Otherwise, you look foolish. In response I will state the obvious and give you a clue.

The obvious: Dembski would not agree that the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy are random in any meaningful sense of that word. He would conclude those lines were, without the slightest doubt, designed.

A clue: Re-read Dembski’s work. Here is a line you should start with from one of the papers linked by Robb. “As with Shannon information, there is a disconnect between Kolmogorov complexity and conceptual information.”

Comments
There seems to be some confused conflation with "random" and "rare" or "distinguished." The soliloquy is more unlikely, more singularly unique, but certainly not random. However, this is one of those all or none types of debates. If the premise is that everything is random, then x is random. Front loaded premise. So tired, so banal.jw777
October 6, 2014
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If we are concerned with the issue of “more random” why should I ask whether it is “more complex”?
So, did you ask whether String #2 was more random than String #1?DiEb
October 6, 2014
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To be precise: J. Shallit said that String #2 was "more random" than String #1, but not that String #2 was random....DiEb
October 6, 2014
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DiEb, please re-read my response to your previous comment. If we are concerned with the issue of "more random" why should I ask whether it is "more complex"? "Random" and "Complex" are not synonyms.Barry Arrington
October 6, 2014
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BA, please reread my previous comment. It's not about the word "random" opposed to "complex", is about an absolute statement opposed to a relative one.DiEb
October 6, 2014
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DiEB Shallit said String #2 was "more random," not I. If you have a problem with the use of the word "random" as opposed to "complex" your problem is with Shallit, not me.Barry Arrington
October 6, 2014
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HeKS, here is the first entry. Just link to it. I am thinking about gathering them together as a resource. https://uncommondescent.com/origin-of-life/darwinian-debating-devices-fail-files-2014-09-jeffrey-shallit/Barry Arrington
October 6, 2014
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There is a difference between asking "Is as sperm whale small?" (answer obviously "no") "is a sperm whale smaller than a blue whale?" (answer obviously "yes"). You should have asked "is String #2 less complex than String #1" and "is String #2 less random than String #1" instead of "is String #2 random".DiEb
October 6, 2014
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@Barry That's a possible idea. Where is this series to be found and how do I add to it?HeKS
October 6, 2014
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DiEB @ 43. What question would you pose?Barry Arrington
October 6, 2014
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HeKS, further shooting at Guillermoe would be boring. He presents no challenge. OTOH, you could use his methods of obfuscation and distraction to add a post to Eric Anderson's Darwinist Debating Tactics series. That would be instructive.Barry Arrington
October 6, 2014
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Mark, I am going to sum up with this. Concluding that Hamlet is totally non-random has the benefit of corresponding with the glaringly obvious fact of the matter. As a corollary to that observation, any analysis that leads to a conclusion that Hamlet is "random" in any degree (i.e., more or less random than some other string) drains the concept of "random" of all practical meaning.Barry Arrington
October 6, 2014
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I have communicated with Dembski, and he assures me that he would consider Hamlet to be completely non-random.
That was never in doubt. You have to pose the right question to get a meaningful answer.DiEb
October 6, 2014
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@Barry Off-topic, but I'd thought you'd be interested in this: Guillermoe does it againHeKS
October 6, 2014
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Mark, you are simply wrong when you say Dembski would employ a Kolmogorov Complexity analysis and assign some degree of "randomness" to Hamlet. This makes your little jab at the end of 30 all the more unseemly.Barry Arrington
October 6, 2014
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I have communicated with Dembski, and he assures me that he would consider Hamlet to be completely non-random. He pointed me to the same paper Joe links @ 36. Randomness by Design. Dembski’s point is that randomness can never be established in isolation as Shallit attempts to do. Randomness can only be established in relation to patterns. Take any string (which Dembski calls the “candidate space”). We compare the candidate space with a selected “pattern space.” If a given candidate space violates all of the patterns in the pattern space, then the candidate space is random. If the pattern space is “meaningful English text” then obviously the candidate space (i.e., Hamlet) does not violate all of the patterns in the pattern space. It is, therefore, not random.Barry Arrington
October 6, 2014
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And whenever that is found, I think you have a shut case for intelligent agency having been at work.
Pretty much, yes.Sebestyen
October 6, 2014
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#32 Tim The command "TYPE GIBBERISH" cannot be relied upon to produce a specific string of gibberish unless that string is somehow included in the programme - so the command is not a compressed form of a specific string. The point of K's definition is that a non-random string can be created with an algorithm using only a few items from a set of universal instructions (hence Cantor's reference to a universal computer). This is the definition that Dembski uses (actually he confuses the issue later in some of his papers by apparently expanding the concept to any set of instructions - but I belief that to be a fault in his paper - he certainly begins by defining random in K terms).Mark Frank
October 6, 2014
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Splatter: I supplied one possible interpretation and pointed to the mathematical framework I’d work it out in. This interpretation made sense of what Barry was saying, so I was being charitable. Why all the hostility? When Shallit mocks Barry, is that hostility? And when I point out the fallacy in your argument, is that hostility? I'm sure you're going to ask: what fallacy? It is the fallacy that there is some kind of mathematical language that expresses "information" explicitly and correctly, and that is how all "information" should be gauged. I pointed out that EVERY definition of "information" is some kind of intellectual intuition that has been given some kind of mathematical expression. IOW, you were being dogmatic without even realizing it. I just asked you to take note of the move your argument makes, and that it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Again, it is ironic that when Dembski provides a mathematical basis for information, his underlying intuitions aren't attacked, but his math. And then when Barry attacks Shallit's maths---pointing out the incredulity of using his mathematical description to deal with information ("conceptual information" in Dembski's lexicon)---you attack his intuitions, saying that he's proposing some kind of "informal idea" rather than mathematical rigor. You cannot separate the intuitions of human logic and the mathematics that are then applied. But intuition is a priori, and hence, the more important of the two. Let me put it to you another way: isn't it obvious that Kolmogorov Complexity can in no way lead us to a true understanding of "information" as a notional vehicle that humans use? Isn't that just plain to see? It's simply the end of the story when one can complacently assert that the first 12 lines of Lear are more random than an overtly given random string of characters? If you want to use KC to analyze binary strings, fine. But to call this form of "information" what we as humans instinctively understand as "conceptual information" is no more than a kind of pontificating equivocation. My whole point in the previous post was to simply point out that Shallit is being dogmatic---and perversely wrong---in his views; and that you, Splatter, were being dogmatic as well. Of all the defintions given for "conceptual information," Dembski's, by far, is the best. But, you either accept its logic or you don't. ID simply says: look at biological systems, which even the evolutionists say have a genetic "code," and then think about the improbability of it all. It's simple. But, if you have a pre-determined outlook, nothing will change your mind. And, so, we find people who quibble over Dembski's use of equiprobable distribution (even when studies suggest that this is reasonable when it comes to nucleotides) and then, as in the case of Shallit, suggest that there is no such thing as a "pattern," while completely---and willfully---refusing to grapple with Dembski's writings on the topic. The more honest approach would be to simply say: "I refuse to believe."PaV
October 6, 2014
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Here is the reference for Mark Frank and JohnnyB: Randomness by DesignJoe
October 6, 2014
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Mark Frank:
Dembski has said that only intelligent design can produce strings with low randomness as defined by Kologomorov complexity if the result is sufficiently improbable based on leading chance hypotheses.
Mark, R0bb provided the article that supports what I saidJoe
October 6, 2014
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Feel free to reuse. :D: |__________________________________| Ë?ÛlÉ}³ä)JþõÍv, à¨Ôr ?÷ÿV??wPÙÁ?|Å2§/7{Êl%´ùM(-èø?ì?³sYÖ?[?&Ñtt£=üÅúºc,C£'?+?M?????sNO?ª%½±;®?WJ,N?A-I#·ô÷mdÒ?ü#nF®·ë??n§?«u²'??/T:M`í%9Áaç?°Ö?ôuIÅX?áõ\iè»?9¢??´}u¾Æl?1Á@¶+N ÔÝë¸k?P؁3+aðr&D?wK\;èÔTøå§0ýY÷¶®?§±,ô¶ð¯Ädtÿwí{Ë'ɨsZñÛßuÈÎR­æ$?/?3Jº´RØ?9qzqnKÚfS¨[8³±?hªË·?m¨ðó,ˬúWÏÈX·9þÆCñ?]êÛ?|g?PlÛ?gír???.Z·ÈÚ½.hFã??Dëpmm?Èx5֐ºªUl]ã9pÇüÄ/¤&?þT6Û¢VB?x÷"Ì?]X?qÉߏ)²+_[ë?ÍQ­àG­á?yƨäºÊgõú=æ~<?gÓµ§Ogøå5¥CcÏç¶Òð?§`ÑÍ?R/?Ø?º(«§á¤Àæ Ìùi¢DF~¾cÂêO&(YÀúH¼}"Ðìù?î:E5­÷9Læ)»Ori@d??[®nÄ?'ÈOmYÏðw¿?<áÈ[?§?·?ëP~$Â4P;K |__________________________________| --the new randomists-- Technically, since this is a pile of hash values subsequently converted to ascii... it's not really classically random (for lack of better term). But it works.JGuy
October 6, 2014
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Sebestyen@10 Right. A sequence can appear random and have all kinds of real information. And if it does appear random, you're going to need an interpreter or code to decipher it. These require intention and foresight. And whenever that is found, I think you have a shut case for intelligent agency having been at work.JGuy
October 6, 2014
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MF, As I read you, I get the feeling you are being too clever by half. When you write,
I am suggesting that he [Dembski] would find the other string [the gibberish] even less random than the soliloquy.
you are seem to be relying on K's definition and specifically its compressibility. I think we all know that once it has been typed, the gibberish has the same (or lesser) randomness than the soliloquy as there is little if no room for compressibility for that specific string. However, isn't it the point of the BA's typed gibberish that any gibberish would be an acceptable string for the command (written professionally in C++) TYPE GIBBERISH. According to K, such a compressed command produces far more randomness than any such code (which would be necessarily longer) that produced the soliloquy. Please, clarify your position because right now it seems as though you have tried to smuggle in the specificity. For now, I will stop short of accusing you of that.Tim
October 6, 2014
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In the set of all possible strings, most strings are random (in the sense that they cannot be significantly "compressed"). However, it cannot be formally proven that a *specific* string is complex (if the complexity of the string is above a certain threshold). Furthermore, whether any *particular* string is random (not significantly Kolmogorov-compressible) depends on the specific universal computer that is chosen. .cantor
October 6, 2014
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#27 No Joe - Dembski has said that only intelligent design can produce strings with low randomness as defined by Kologomorov complexity if the result is sufficiently improbable based on leading chance hypotheses. I think I need to start running a class on ID basics for you guys - nothing critical just explaining what Dembski has actually written.Mark Frank
October 6, 2014
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"Dembski has said that only intelligent design can produce randomness as defined by statistical probabilities." Incorrect. Please supply a reference. "That means that Hamlet would appear to be totally random by that methodology." Even if your first quote was correct, this would not follow.johnnyb
October 6, 2014
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Barry, Dembski has said that only intelligent design can produce randomness as defined by statistical probabilities. That means that Hamlet would appear to be totally random by that methodology. And that should tell us there is something amiss with the methodology. And seeing tat no one can predict what a designer will design then all designs are random, in that context. Again that suggests there is something amiss with the methodology.Joe
October 6, 2014
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Johnnyb
Shallit is using (c), which is understandable, since (c) is the definition used in most conceptions of Specified Complexity and other Dembski-ish methodologies
Thanks. Perhaps Barry will accept the point more readily from you.Mark Frank
October 6, 2014
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Barry
Mark, perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Are you suggesting that Dembski would conclude that Hamlet’s soliloquy is random?
You are misunderstanding me. I will try to be clearer. I am suggesting that he would find the other string even less random than the soliloquy.Mark Frank
October 6, 2014
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