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Larry Moran defends Paul Nelson!

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On Sunday, November 25, Dr. Paul Nelson gave a video presentation at Pastor Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church in southern California, entitled, Darwin or Design? Watching the video, I thought that he did a brilliant job in exposing the inadequacy of natural selection to account for major evolutionary changes – especially, the origin of animal body plans. I strongly recommend that Uncommon Descent readers take the time to watch Dr. Nelson’s presentation. It’s one of the best critiques of neo-Darwinian evolution that I’ve ever seen. Devastating is the only word I can use to characterize it.

How Animal Body Plans expose the inadequacy of Neo-Darwinian Evolution, in a nutshell

Dr. Nelson has kindly summarized his case, in a comment he made over on Why Evolution Is True:

Mutations that disrupt body plan formation are inevitably deleterious. (There’s only one class of exceptions; see below.) This is the main signal emerging from over 100 years of mutagenesis in Drosophila.

Text from one of my Saddleback slides:

1. Animal body plans are built in each generation by a stepwise process, from the fertilized egg to the many cells of the adult. The earliest stages in this process determine what follows.

2. Thus, to change — that is, to evolve — any body plan, mutations expressed early in development must occur, be viable, and be stably transmitted to offspring.

3. But such early-acting mutations of global effect are those least likely to be tolerated by the embryo.

Losses of structures are the only exception to this otherwise universal generalization about animal development and evolution. Many species will tolerate phenotypic losses if their local (environmental) circumstances are favorable. Hence island or cave fauna often lose (for instance) wings or eyes.

What that means is that even after 100 years of careful investigation, there’s no way known to science that unguided changes are capable of generating new, viable body plans for animals. And yet at some point in the past, these plans must have been generated: there are dozens of different phyla of animals, each with its own body plan. Dr. Nelson concludes that only a foresighted mechanism – intelligence – could have done the job.

Professor Coyne’s piqued response to Nelson

One person who hasn’t watched Dr. Nelson’s presentation (but who really should have) is Professor Jerry Coyne, who forthrightly declared in a recent post entitled, A Marshall McLuhan moment with creationist Paul Nelson: “I haven’t yet watched Nelson’s talk (some reader please do it and report back).” Among the 141 comments (as at the time of writing), I couldn’t find one which even attempted to provide a synopsis of Dr. Nelson’s talk. I found one sneering putdown which accused Nelson of mis-representing evolution, but made no attempt to refute his arguments, and another post by someone who admitted that (s)he was still “trying to at least have a general understanding of what biology is and how it works,” and who described the video as “extremely deceptive” (which it certainly wasn’t).

One thing I should mention about Dr. Nelson is that he has a Ph.D. in philosophy of biology and evolutionary theory from the University of Chicago, where Professor Coyne teaches. It is fair to assume, then, that Dr. Nelson is familiar with the views of leading thinkers in the field of evolutionary biology.

In his post, Professor Coyne quoted from an email that he’d received last week from Dr. Nelson, inviting him to comment on the presentation he gave at Saddleback Church. For Coyne’s benefit, Dr. Nelson summarized his argument as follows:

… I made a case (a) that natural selection is quite real, but (b) that the process faces genuine limits, set by the logic of selection itself, to explain macroevolution. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

Clear enough, one would have thought. In the same email, Dr. Nelson also criticized Professor Coyne for declaring, in recent posts on Why Evolution Is True, that the views of Dr. James Shapiro on natural selection are unrepresentative of biologists. Here’s the relevant excerpt:

Skepticism about the efficacy of natural selection is widespread within evolutionary biology (see below). Jim Shapiro is hardly alone in this regard. So when you tell your WEIT audience that natural selection is the only game in town for building complex adaptations, you can expect two consequences:

1. Readers who already know about the thinking of workers such as Eric Davidson, Michael Lynch, Andreas Wagner, John Gerhart & Marc Kirschner, or Scott Gilbert (all of whom, among many others, have recently expressed frank doubts about selection) must discount what you say about the centrality of natural selection to evolutionary theory — because they know that just isn’t so.

2. Readers who do not already know about Davidson, Lynch, etc. — upon coming across their ideas — must wonder why you told them that natural selection is the sine qua non of evolutionary explanation.

Either outcome is bad.

Nowhere in his email did Dr. Nelson deny the reality of natural selection, or its role in accounting for adaptations. What Nelson did deny is the proposition that all evolutionary biologists regard it as central to evolutionary theory, and view it as the only “game in town” for building complex adaptations.

Professor Moran defends Dr. Nelson

Even Intelligent Design critic Professor Larry Moran, of the University of Toronto, thought that Dr. Nelson had correctly paraphrased the views of the five scientists listed above. In a comment to Coyne’s post, he wrote:

I think this is basically correct. All of these authors question in some way or another the “centrality” of natural selection to evolutionary theory. We can quibble about the exact meaning of words and sentences but I, for one, don’t think Nelson is way off base here. Perhaps Nelson shouldn’t have said “expressed doubts about selection” because it could be taken to mean that the authors deny that positive natural selection exists. I don’t think that’s what Paul Nelson meant. He may be an IDiot but he’s not that stupid.

Sadly, however, Professor Coyne appears to have misconstrued Dr. Nelson’s email from the start, as belittling the importance of natural selection, when Dr. Nelson was really attacking its centrality in accounting for complex adaptations. In his post, he wrote:

True, I’ve had scientific disagreements with Davidson, Gerhart, and Kirschner about theories of “evolvability” and “modularity,” but I never saw them claiming that natural selection is unimportant in forging the adaptations of organisms. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

Circling the wagons

But Coyne went further. He then emailed five of the biologists listed by Nelson (Davidson, Lynch, Wagner, Gerhart and Kirschner) and asked them to comment on Dr. Nelson’s claims. (Coyne enclosed Nelson’s email with his own.) Here is a selection from Professor Coyne’s email:

… I have read the papers of many of you, and while I know that several of you question aspects of modern evolutionary theory, I wasn’t aware that any of you denied the efficacy of selection in accounting for adaptations….

At any rate, if Nelson has accurately characterized your views, do let me know….

Professor Moran defends Dr. Nelson again!

Am I the only one who thinks that Professor Coyne was asking these scientists a loaded question? Evidently not. Professor Larry Moran was of the same opinion. In a comment to Coyne’s post, he wrote:

I don’t think Jerry’s question is fair. Paul Nelson was not accusing these authors of denying a role for natural selection in “obvious adaptations.”

The replies that Professor Coyne got back from these biologists affirmed their belief in the importance of natural selection to evolution – which Nelson had never contested in the first place! Rather, what Nelson claimed was that these scientists denied that natural selection was “the only game in town for building complex adaptations.” None of the replies Coyne received showed that Nelson was wrong on this vital point. I’ve quoted key excerpts from these scientists’ responses, so that readers can judge for themselves. Emphases are mine.

Davidson:

Of course I would not disagree for one second about the importance of adaptive selection for species specific characters of all kinds, whether on protein or regulatory sequences.

Lynch:

The ID crowd tends to misinterpret my embracing of what I call “nonadaptive” mechanisms of evolution (drift, mutation, and recombination) as implying a rejection of Darwinian processes.

You are correct that it is wrong to characterize me as someone who doesn’t believe in the efficacy of natural selection.

Wagner

I do believe that natural selection is essential for evolutionary adaptation. I also believe that we can understand the diversity of life through entirely natural causes, natural selection being an important one of them.

Gerhart

I haven’t tracked down what Dr. Nelson said we said about natural selection — presumably that we don’t think it’s important. We do think it’s important, and our writing about the means by which organisms generate phenotypic variation wouldn’t make any sense without it.

Kirschner

I really do not know why any thinking person would believe that I question natural selection or the role of genetic change in evolution as agreed upon by population biologists… Whether evolutionary biologists dismisses what we write as beside the point, I still endorse the basic idea of genetic variation and selection. It is just that to go beyond the genes to the phenotype, which after all is under selection, we may want to learn how the phenotype is created.

Coyne’s Marshall McLuhan moment

There is a famous scene in Annie Hall in which Woody Allen and Diane Keaton are waiting in line for a movie, when an academic behind them starts pontificating about Fellini and Beckett. Allen is getting more and more annoyed by the pretentious bore. Finally, when the man starts talking about Marshall McLuhan, Allen steps out of the movie frame and confronts him with the real Marshall McLuhan, who tells the academic, “You know nothing about my work.” Allen then says, “Wouldn’t it be great if life were really like this?”

Professor Coyne evidently thought he’d had a Marshall McLuhan moment, for he seized on the responses he got from the five scientists he emailed, and waved them in front of his readers, concluding his post with the following message:

Nelson can consider himself pwned, though of course he’ll take the above and somehow make it seem that they agree with him… Nelson is either an outright liar or is completely ignorant of the views of these biologists. Nelson either hasn’t read their work, hasn’t understood it, or has read it and understood it but distorted it. Regardless, it’s ignorance, willful or not. But this is what creationists must do if they want to make their ridiculous views seem respectable.

Memo to Professor Coyne: there’s a big, big difference between saying that natural selection is “important” or even “essential” for evolutionary adaptation, and saying it’s “the only game in town for building complex adaptations.” And speaking of willful ignorance, why did you make no attempt to present Dr. Nelson’s case against neo-Darwinian evolution and then refute it? If I didn’t know better, I’d say you were hiding something.

UPDATE:
When Dr. Nelson, in one of his replies to Professor Coyne’s post, adduced quotes from one of the scientists he’d cited (Michael Lynch) demonstrating that Lynch is much more of a skeptic of natural selection than most people would allow, Professor Moran began to get cold feet about his defense of Nelson. In a follow-up comment, he challenged Nelson, saying:

… I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Do you, or do you not, claim that Lynch and the others deny the existence of natural selection? Do you, or do you not, claim that all of these authors deny that adaptations are caused primarily by natural selection?

I will take your refusal to answer as evidence that Jerry was right and you really are ignorant (or lying) about the works of these authors.

Dr. Nelson’s reply was direct and to the point:

Seriously, Larry — nowhere did I say that any of the authors under discussion denied (a) the existence of natural selection, or that (b) natural selection produces adaptations.

Please re-read my original email to Jerry, which he quotes above. My point concerned the central role or relative strength of selection, as compared to other possible processes, in the thinking of workers such as Michael Lynch. Anyone still reading this thread should familiarize themselves with Lynch’s now-classic 2007 paper on the topic, “The frailty of adaptive hypotheses for the origins of organismal complexity,” PNAS May 15, 2007, available as open access here:

http://www.pnas.org/content/104/suppl.1/8597.full

Is Dr. Nelson misquoting Lynch? You be the judge

I’d like to close with a collection of quotes from The frailty of adaptive hypotheses for the origins of organismal complexity (PNAS 2007 104 (Suppl 1) 8597-8604; published ahead of print May 9, 2007, doi:10.1073/pnas.0702207104) by Professor Michael Lynch, one of the scientists cited by Dr. Nelson in his email. My thanks to Dr. Nelson for providing the link in the comment above. Let readers judge whether Dr. Nelson has quoted him fairly:

…It has long been known that natural selection is just one of several mechanisms of evolutionary change, but the myth that all of evolution can be explained by adaptation continues to be perpetuated by our continued homage to Darwin’s treatise (6) in the popular literature. For example, Dawkins’ (7–9) agenda to spread the word on the awesome power of natural selection has been quite successful, but it has come at the expense of reference to any other mechanisms, a view that is in some ways profoundly misleading…

What is in question is whether natural selection is a necessary or sufficient force to explain the emergence of the genomic and cellular features central to the building of complex organisms…

First, evolution is a population-genetic process governed by four fundamental forces. Darwin (6) articulated one of those forces, the process of natural selection, for which an elaborate theory in terms of genotype frequencies now exists (10, 11). The remaining three evolutionary forces are nonadaptive in the sense that they are not a function of the fitness properties of individuals: mutation is the ultimate source of variation on which natural selection acts, recombination assorts variation within and among chromosomes, and genetic drift ensures that gene frequencies will deviate a bit from generation to generation independent of other forces. Given the century of work devoted to the study of evolution, it is reasonable to conclude that these four broad classes encompass all of the fundamental forces of evolution.

Second, all four major forces play a substantial role in genomic evolution. It is impossible to understand evolution purely in terms of natural selection, and many aspects of genomic, cellular, and developmental evolution can only be understood by invoking a negligible level of adaptive involvement (12, 13).

Natural selection is just one of four primary evolutionary forces. [Quote from Table 1]

There is no evidence at any level of biological organization that natural selection is a directional force encouraging complexity. In contrast, substantial evidence exists that a reduction in the efficiency of selection drives the evolution of genomic complexity.[Quote from Table 1]

The literature is permeated with dogmatic statements that natural selection is the only guiding force of evolution, with mutation creating variation but never controlling the ultimate direction of evolutionary change (for a review, see ref. 17)…

Most biologists are so convinced that all aspects of biodiversity arise from adaptive processes that virtually no attention is given to the null hypothesis of neutral evolution, despite the availability of methods to do so (32–34)…

The hypothesis that expansions in the complexity of genomic architecture are largely driven by nonadaptive evolutionary forces is capable of explaining a wide range of previously disconnected observations (13, 40) (Table 2). This theory may be viewed as overly simplistic. However, simply making the counterclaim that natural selection is all powerful (without any direct evidence) is not much different from invoking an intelligent designer (without any direct evidence)…

Certainly, many of the above-mentioned embellishments of eukaryotic genes have adaptive functions in today’s multicellular species, but observations on current deployment may have little bearing on matters of initial origins…

Multicellularity is widely viewed as a unique attribute of eukaryotes, somehow made possible by the origin of a more complex cellular architecture and, without question, with the assistance of natural selection. However, it is difficult to defend this assertion in any formal way…

Nevertheless, King (45) states that “this historical predisposition of eukaryotes to the unicellular lifestyle begs the question of what selective advantages might have been conferred by the transition to multicellularity;” and Jacob (46) argues that “it is natural selection that gives direction to changes, orients chance, and slowly, progressively produces more complex structures, new organs, and new species.” The vast majority of biologists almost certainly agree with such statements. But where is the direct supportive evidence for the assumption that complexity is rooted in adaptive processes? No existing observations support such a claim, and given the massive global dominance of unicellular species over multicellular eukaryotes, both in terms of species richness and numbers of individuals, if there is an advantage of organismal complexity, one can only marvel at the inability of natural selection to promote it. Multicellular species experience reduced population sizes, reduced recombination rates, and increased deleterious mutation rates, all of which diminish the efficiency of selection (13). It may be no coincidence that such species also have substantially higher extinction rates than do unicellular taxa (47, 48)…

…[C]ontrary to popular belief, natural selection may not only be an insufficient mechanism for the origin of genetic modularity, but population-genetic environments that maximize the efficiency of natural selection may actually promote the opposite situation, alleles under unified transcriptional control…

Although those who promote the concept of the adaptive evolution of the above features are by no means intelligent-design advocates, the burden of evidence for invoking an all-powerful guiding hand of natural selection should be no less stringent than one would demand of a creationist…

If complexity, modularity, evolvability, and/or robustness are entirely products of adaptive processes, then where is the evidence? What are the expected patterns of evolution of such properties in the absence of selection, and what types of observations would be acceptable as a falsification of a null, nonadaptive hypothesis?

Neutral evolution to the rescue?

Lynch, it seems, is a big fan of neutral evolution as an explanation for complexity. And it looks like Professor P.Z. Myers agrees with him, for in a recent post entitled, Complexity is not usually the product of selection, which criticizes evolutionist John Wilkins, Myers writes:

[C]omplex traits are the product of selection? Come on, John, you know better than that. Even the creationists get this one right when they argue that there may not be adaptive paths that take you step by step to complex innovations, especially not paths where fitness doesn’t increase incrementally at each step. Their problem is that they don’t understand any other mechanisms at all well (and they don’t understand selection that well, either), so they think it’s an evolution-stopper — but you should know better.

This is the trap Michael Behe falls into, too. It’s the assumption that you have to have an adaptive scenario for every step, and an inability to imagine non-adaptive solutions. I think if selection were always the rule, then we’d never have evolved beyond prokaryotes — all that fancy stuff eukaryotes added just gets in the way of the one true business of evolution, reproduction.

So let’s work through a hypothetical scenario of increasing complexity, and you try to see where selection is essential. And then I’ll give some real world examples….

The bottom line is that you cannot easily explain most increases in complexity with adaptationist rationales. You have to consider chance as far more important, and far more likely to produced elaborations…

Even in something as specific as the physiological function of a biochemical pathway, adaptation isn’t the complete answer, and evolution relies on neutral or nearly neutral precursor events to produce greater functional complexity.

Readers who want to check out Professor Michael Behe’s responses to Thornton (a critic of Behe’s work, whom Myers cites in his article) can go here and here (the latter link has a good collection of articles).

Professor Larry Moran has endorsed P.Z.Myers’ article, in a recent post of his own, entitled, On the Evolution of Complexity (11 December 2012), in which he writes:

Can you go from some simple character to a more complex feature without invoking natural selection? Yes, you can. Complex features can evolve by nonadaptive means.

Missing the point of Dr. Nelson’s argument?

While I appreciate the general point that these scientists are trying to make, that neutral or nearly neutral random events can sometimes generate functional complexity, it seems to miss the whole point of Dr. Nelson’s argument, that mutations in the genes that control animals’ body plan aren’t just neutral – they’re deleterious. Either that, or they’re mutations that reduce functionality, rather than increasing it. If Dr. Nelson is right about these points, then his argument for the necessity of Intelligent Design is a telling one, not only against neo-Darwinists but also against advocates of a greater role for random, neutral evolutionary changes, such as Lynch.

Would it be too much to hope that one of the evolutionary biologists mentioned in this post will actually take the time and trouble to address Dr. Nelson’s original argument, which he made in his video presentation, that unguided processes – whether they be natural selection, mutation, recombination or genetic drift – are incapable of explaining the origin of animal body plans? Or would that be too difficult? Time will tell. Meanwhile, I’m not holding my breath. Expect a lot more academic obfuscation in the days to come.

Comments
blockquote>I did not speak of Aristotle. I know you didn't and didn't say so. Others have suggested Aristotle could be proposed as "the first scientist" who left detailed notes on his observations. You know, looking at your recommendations for reading, they uncannily follows the suggestions of a book I have to hand (it's by Philip Stokes) ;) Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all survivors of the end of the World!!!Alan Fox
December 20, 2012
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Alan: You aren't reading my posts carefully before you respond. I did not speak of Aristotle. I spoke of early modern philosophers whose work on epistemology and metaphysics laid the groundwork for modern science. I mentioned the 17th century (2,000 years after Aristotle!), and examples including Bacon and Descartes. Paine's thought was derivative of earlier writers, including Locke. And more important thinkers came afterward, including Mill. Your knowledge in this area seems almost nonexistent (which is the reason I suggested you refrain from offering opinions). You might pick up some histories of political philosophy by Sabine, Wolin, Strauss, etc. before forming any fixed opinions. And reading the primary sources never hurts -- Locke, Two Treaties of Government, Mill, On Liberty, Rousseau, The Social Contract and the two Discourses, etc. Next, unless you explain why the distinction between "philosophy" and "philosophers" is relevant, I can't comment on whatever you are trying to say about that. Finally, I don't know how you would know my politics, since I haven't offered any political opinions, but my comment about Hume indicates nothing in that regard. I was merely stating the general consensus of scholars in the area that Hume is not one of the leading *political* philosophers. His contributions to political philosophy -- as measured by fundamentally new ideas -- are much less significant than those of Hobbes, Locke, and Mill, not to mention non-Englishmen such as Machiavelli, Rousseau, and Hegel. This has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with any particular teaching of Hume; I'm simply reporting the generally held view that Hume's great contributions to philosophy lie elsewhere, e.g., in epistemology.Timaeus
December 19, 2012
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PS @ Timaeus Lest my further typos offend you, let me say I have a slow connection and there is a delay before letters appear. Occasionally, I don't notice, a letter is omitted et voilà!Alan Fox
December 19, 2012
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Timaeus:
Do you accept my two main examples? They were: 1. Philosophers laid down the foundational principles for modern science. 2. Philosophers laid down the foundational principles of modern liberal democracy.
Well, that depnds. There has been a subtle change from philophy to philosophers Regarding 1. I would agree with the proposal for Aristotle to be regarded as the first to make and record scientific observations. Whether scientific progress depended on this input is less clear and was Aristotle doing philosophy when observing the natural world around him? So, no, I wouldn't argue with "philosophers contributed to the progress of science" but "laid down the foundations" only inasmuch as astrologers did so with astronomy. Similarly, re 2. Payne was pivotal for the development of the American constitution but maybe is the exception that proves the rule. Re Hume, I suspect we are not only divided by a common language but also our politics.Alan Fox
December 19, 2012
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Alan Fox: Regarding Hume, there was no need for me to mention every British philosopher in what was intended as only a suggestive list of examples. But I did add "and others" -- you must have missed that. In any case, I don't regard Hume as particularly important for liberal democratic theory, in comparison with the others named. He is an important philosopher, and he did write some things on politics, but his writing on politics is not as historically important as his writing on other things. As for the French Revolution, anything done in the name of high principles can be corrupted by those with lower principles, or no principles at all. The abuse of the Revolution has nothing to do with my point. My point was that philosophy has real effects on the world. It has helped to topple regimes, in America, France, Russia, and elsewhere. You were saying that philosophy is of little or no practical use. But it is immensely practical. (That is the problem: misused, it becomes ideology, and justifies the tyranny of some over others. So it can be practical in a bad way as well as a good way. But still it is practical.)Timaeus
December 19, 2012
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Alan Fox: You have just given several short answers, none of which deal with the thrust of my questions. I ask you again: Do you accept my two main examples? They were: 1. Philosophers laid down the foundational principles for modern science. 2. Philosophers laid down the foundational principles of modern liberal democracy. If you had time enough compose 50-52 above, you have time enough to answer this question. So if I don't hear an answer from you, I will assume that you are ducking the question, and the most logical reason for ducking it is that you recognize that they are very important counterexamples to your reckless generalization against the usefulness of philosophy.Timaeus
December 19, 2012
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And obvioulsy Alan doesn't place any priority on posting anything of any actual substance, but that is to be expected...Joe
December 19, 2012
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Does your silence betoken consent, or disagreement?
No, time poverty. I don't regard commenting on this blog as high priority though I enjoy the opportunity when I can.Alan Fox
December 19, 2012
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Timaeus You don't mention David Hume.Alan Fox
December 19, 2012
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I don’t understand your reference to current French government — are you complaining against it?
Somewhat, socialism and a decent healthcare system has to be paid for.The French education system is apparently now worse than the US! But my point was that the French Revolution was exploited by radicals and extremists who used whatever justified obtaining their own ends. The philosophy was lost in the maelstrom and France ended up with the ultimate disaster of Napoleon, Russia and Waterloo. I see parallels with many dictatorships, Hitler of course, Stalin, Mao.Alan Fox
December 19, 2012
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F/N 2: Such, of course, inadvertently underscores the point Craig made in his recent WaPo article, and long before that the one Plato made on how evolutionary materialism opens doors to radical relativism and onward to nihilism.kairosfocus
December 16, 2012
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F/N: Pardon a note that has to speak to behaviour. For on current track record, AF's "don't take seriously" talking point seems to imply that he feels free to make and ignore correction of false accusations and irresponsible declarations, cf here etc.kairosfocus
December 16, 2012
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Alan Fox (44): I don't understand your reference to current French government -- are you complaining against it? If so, understand that I was only trying to show that philosophy was "useful" in the sense of "having been put to use" in the "real world." I was not arguing that all uses of philosophy were good ones. The point is that philosophy has had tangible effects upon the way modern people live, for good and ill. Its ideas shape institutions, morals, perceptions of beauty and truth, etc. In both Britain and North America the ideas of Locke have been extremely influential in shaping liberal democracy, and arguably the greatest versions of liberal democracy. So there is a clear philosophical influence right there. (And of course, Locke did not do it alone -- his ideas were augmented by those of Mill, Bentham, Russell and others. But Locke was the fountainhead -- though many of his premises came from Hobbes.) You did not answer either the above point about liberal democracy or the other point about the rise of modern science out of the philosophy of Bacon, Descartes, etc. Does your silence betoken consent, or disagreement? Or do you not think you know enough about the history of ideas to comment? I'd like an answer -- either agree that philosophy had those real effects on modern society, or show me why it didn't, or indicate that you weren't aware of these historical connections and that you therefore aren't at the moment equipped to respond to them.Timaeus
December 15, 2012
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Excuse HTML error.Alan Fox
December 15, 2012
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You will learn a lot more about what is “real” from Dostoevsky, Tchaikovsky, Plato, or Augustine than from Donald Trump...>/blockquote> Apart from your use of the future tense for Dostoevsky, Tchaikovsky, Plato, or Augustine, I totally agree!
Alan Fox
December 15, 2012
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>a href="https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-defends-paul-nelson/#comment-441398">Timaeus
Alan Fox (36): You’re joking, right?
No. I freely admit to not taking IDs eriously but I am serious when I suggest philosophers have had no impact on modern life.
You’ve heard of the French Revolution?
Oh yes. I live in France. I'm subject to the code Napoléon. I'm cradled in le berceau of the Enlightenment. Try a better argument. :)Alan Fox
December 15, 2012
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Mung: Never trust a computer sim, especially if the one who wrote it hopes to profit by it. Always insist on getting the dynamics and chain of warrant as well as validation and the cross checks involved. If you were to see how a lot of "observational" data got to that exalted state, you would throw fits and bring in the Fraud squad. KFkairosfocus
December 15, 2012
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Timaeus: Very well said. KFkairosfocus
December 15, 2012
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If I can't force it into a computer, it's not real.Mung
December 15, 2012
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Alan Fox (36): You're joking, right? Philosophical insights that have proved useful in the real world? (Of course, "the real world" is already an equivocal term, but I assume you are using "real" in the vulgar, uncritical, middle-class way of the scientific positivist or corporate capitalist. I'll answer on that basis.) You drive a car, right? You turn on a light in your bedroom, right? Where do you think the science that drives those things came from? It came from decisions taken by philosophers in the 17th century -- Bacon, Descartes and others -- to study nature in a new way. That decision arose out of philosophical critique of Aristotelianism. I recommend some good books on the history of science -- many of them focus on the philosophical roots of science. You've heard of the French Revolution? The American Constitution? The principles enunciated in the American Constitution came from Founding Fathers who were steeped in the philosophical writings of John Locke and other European writers. The French Revolution was inspired by the Rights of Man tradition set forth by various Enlightenment philosophers. And the development of democracy in the West since then owes much to the philosophical writings of Mill, Rousseau, Kant, Hegel and others. Any good volume on the history of political philosophy should show you this. The world we live in is in large measure the product of modern Western philosophy. (And that world, it turns out, has been deeply influenced by Biblical and theological notions, but that's another story.) However, there is much more to "reality" than the world uncovered by modern science or the world as lived in bourgeois democracy. I generally find that, whenever I meet someone who talks about "the real world," that the person doing the talking understands "the real world" to be the narrow mental construct held by secular, Western, urban (often suburban), middle-class people who have no connection with rural life, non-Western cultures, the creative and expressive arts, a personal religious tradition, or the history of Western culture. And I generally find that the sort of person who talks about "the real world" is already contemptuous of philosophy -- those who take philosophy seriously almost never use the phrase -- and that nothing will convince him to change that attitude. Philosophy (like theology, poetry and other things) is not for people who want all of intellectual life arranged in tidy, precise questions with unambiguous "right" and "wrong" answers of the sort that students learn to give in Math or Geography class. Philosophy is for people who are reflective and see the many-sidedness of life (and who therefore don't speak in cliches like "the real world"). The deepest truths aren't answers of the type that make the fortunes of scientists, engineers, computer programmers, corporate managers, medical specialists, etc. The deepest truths are life-shaping truths. You will learn a lot more about what is "real" from Dostoevsky, Tchaikovsky, Plato, or Augustine than from Donald Trump or from some geeky biochemist or psychologist who thinks he can prove that thought, will, reason, love, etc. are mere epiphenomena. So I reject the phrasing of the question itself, though, as already indicated, even on the narrower understanding of "real" philosophy has proved quite useful.Timaeus
December 15, 2012
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Natural Selection- What is it and what does it do?: Well let's look at what natural selection is-
“Natural selection is the result of differences in survival and reproduction among individuals of a population that vary in one or more heritable traits.” Page 11 “Biology: Concepts and Applications” Starr fifth edition
“Natural selection is the simple result of variation, differential reproduction, and heredity—it is mindless and mechanistic.” UBerkley
“Natural selection is the blind watchmaker, blind because it does not see ahead, does not plan consequences, has no purpose in view.” Dawkins in “The Blind Watchmaker”?
“Natural selection is therefore a result of three processes, as first described by Darwin: Variation Inheritance Fecundity which together result in non-random, unequal survival and reproduction of individuals, which results in changes in the phenotypes present in populations of organisms over time.”- Allen McNeill prof. introductory biology and evolution at Cornell University
OK so it is a result of three processes- ie an output. But is it really non-random as Allen said? Nope, whatever survives to reproduce survives to reproduce. And that can be any number of variations that exist in a population. What drives the output? The inputs. The variation is said to be random, ie genetic accidents/ mistakes. With sexually reproducing organisms it is still a crap-shoot as to what gets inherited. For example if a male gets a beneficial variation to his Y chromosome but sires all daughters, that beneficial variation gets lost no matter how many offspring he has. Fecundity/ differential reproduction- Don't know until it happens. Can't tell what variation will occur. Can't tell if any of the offspring will inherit even the most beneficial variation and the only way to determine differential reproduction is follow the individuals for their entire reproducing age. Then there can be competing "beneficial" variations. In the end it all boils down to whatever survives to reproduce, survives to reproduce. Evolutionists love to pretend that natural selection is some magical ratchet. So what does it do? The Origin of Theoretical Population Genetics (University of Chicago Press, 1971), reissued in 2001 by William Provine:
Natural selection does not act on anything, nor does it select (for or against), force, maximize, create, modify, shape, operate, drive, favor, maintain, push, or adjust. Natural selection does nothing….Having natural selection select is nifty because it excuses the necessity of talking about the actual causation of natural selection. Such talk was excusable for Charles Darwin, but inexcusable for evolutionists now. Creationists have discovered our empty “natural selection” language, and the “actions” of natural selection make huge, vulnerable targets. (pp. 199-200)
Thanks for the honesty Will. Chapter IV of prominent geneticist Giuseppe Sermonti's book Why is a Fly Not a Horse? is titled "Wobbling Stability". In that chapter he discusses what I have been talking about in other threads- that populations oscillate. The following is what he has to say which is based on thorough scientific investigation:
Sexuality has brought joy to the world, to the world of the wild beasts, and to the world of flowers, but it has brought an end to evolution. In the lineages of living beings, whenever absent-minded Venus has taken the upper hand, forms have forgotten to make progress. It is only the husbandman that has improved strains, and he has done so by bullying, enslaving, and segregating. All these methods, of course, have made for sad, alienated animals, but they have not resulted in new species. Left to themselves, domesticated breeds would either die out or revert to the wild state—scarcely a commendable model for nature’s progress.
(snip a few paragraphs on peppered moths)
Natural Selection, which indeed occurs in nature (as Bishop Wilberforce, too, was perfectly aware), mainly has the effect of maintaining equilibrium and stability. It eliminates all those that dare depart from the type—the eccentrics and the adventurers and the marginal sort. It is ever adjusting populations, but it does so in each case by bringing them back to the norm. We read in the textbooks that, when environmental conditions change, the selection process may produce a shift in a population’s mean values, by a process known as adaptation. If the climate turns very cold, the cold-adapted beings are favored relative to others.; if it becomes windy, the wind blows away those that are most exposed; if an illness breaks out, those in questionable health will be lost. But all these artful guiles serve their purpose only until the clouds blow away. The species, in fact, is an organic entity, a typical form, which may deviate only to return to the furrow of its destiny; it may wander from the band only to find its proper place by returning to the gang.
Everything that disassembles, upsets proportions or becomes distorted in any way is sooner or later brought back to the type. There has been a tendency to confuse fleeting adjustments with grand destinies, minor shrewdness with signs of the times.
It is true that species may lose something on the way—the mole its eyes, say, and the succulent plant its leaves, never to recover them again. But here we are dealing with unhappy, mutilated species, at the margins of their area of distribution—the extreme and the specialized. These are species with no future; they are not pioneers, but prisoners in nature’s penitentiary.
Not such a powerful designer mimic after all. But there is one thing it can do- it can undo what artificial selection has done.Joe
December 15, 2012
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For all the evo-ranting about Paul Nelson it is very telling that not one can produce any evidence that demonstrates he is wrong.Joe
December 15, 2012
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Alan Fox, The philosophical "insight" of materialism and evolutionism haven't proved useful in the real world. So what should we do with those?Joe
December 15, 2012
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Well, perhaps a bit more than that. A philosophical insight that has proved useful in the real world, say.Alan Fox
December 15, 2012
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Alan, you mean you'd like an example of a philosophical thesis or position that I take to be basically correct?Kantian Naturalist
December 14, 2012
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Or even an example!Alan Fox
December 14, 2012
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I of course do think that there are, indeed, correct philosophical answers.
Ok, so... would you like to suggest an exampe?Alan Fox
December 14, 2012
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But if evolutionary theory can be harmonized with some sort of teleology built into natural processes, whether that teleology is interpreted in terms of self-organization theory or something else, then I think a more philosophically acceptable form of evolution could emerge (no pun intended).
Interesting. That's basically my view. I like the idea of Neo-platonic evolution. That's very cool. I like Plato and Neoplatonism generally, actually. I'm a bit of an Aristotelian, but I tend to think of Aristotle as offering fairly minor corrections to Plato, and Plato is a far deeper thinker.
While philosophers may be credited with asking some interesting questions, lately they have not been very helpful in finding answers.
Yes, we philosophers often hear that from non-philosophers. :) I hope you'll forgive my sarcasm; it's just that I hear that a lot and it wears on my nerves. I of course do think that there are, indeed, correct philosophical answers. It's just that, as someone with a philosophical temperament, I try and second-guess my own dogmatism as much as possible.Kantian Naturalist
December 14, 2012
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...how promising is it, do you think, to develop and promote non-Epicurean interpretations of Darwinism? Is an Aristotelian Darwinism viable? A Platonic Darwinism? How about a Hegelian Darwinism (if one can avoid Haeckel’s mistakes)?
From a scientific perspective, it would depend on the usefulness of such an approach. While philosophers may be credited with asking some interesting questions, lately they have not been very helpful in finding answers.Alan Fox
December 14, 2012
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Kantian: Understood about protecting your identity. I didn't mean to be nosy. I was just impressed with your philosophical acumen, and it struck me that you had some training, and I was wondering how you acquired it. But it doesn't matter. As for your current question: "how promising is it, do you think, to develop and promote non-Epicurean interpretations of Darwinism? Is an Aristotelian Darwinism viable? A Platonic Darwinism? How about a Hegelian Darwinism (if one can avoid Haeckel’s mistakes)?" I can answer it fairly easily. I understand "Darwinism" (and later variant neo-Darwinism) to refer to more than the claim of transformation of species over time, and more than the claim of common descent. I understand it to imply a particular mechanism of species change -- variation / random mutations plus "natural selection" (which is metaphorical, as "nature" is not an agent that can "select" anything). So my answer goes as follows: I can imagine Aristotelian, Platonic or Hegelian forms of *evolution* (though the Aristotelian one would be a toughie to work out!), but I can't imagine Aristotelian or Platonic versions of *Darwinism*. Maybe a Hegelian version of Darwinism would be possible, with the various trial forms as the "thesis" and death due to biological unfitness as the "antithesis" with the successful species being the "synthesis" -- I don't know Hegel well enough to be sure -- but I'd be suspicious even of that. (It's probably true as a point of history, however, that Hegel's generally non-static and progressive notion of history created an atmosphere in which Darwinian theory could be born. But I would think that Schelling's "temporalization of the chain of being" (Lovejoy) was at least as important as Hegel's philosophy in that regard.) I think the Darwinian approach to evolution, no matter how dressed up and re-presented, is essentially mechanistic and ultimately as irrationalist in its foundations as Epicureanism. But if evolutionary theory can be harmonized with some sort of teleology built into natural processes, whether that teleology is interpreted in terms of self-organization theory or something else, then I think a more philosophically acceptable form of evolution could emerge (no pun intended). My own inclination being Platonist, I tend to be attracted by notions such as are found in Sternberg and Denton, whereby features of life such as the protein folds are understood as the concretization of a finite set of geometrical "forms" laid up in the mind of -- God, the Demiurge, whoever. The historical process of evolution would then be the temporal stringing out of the actualization of all the possible eternal forms, each "new" (actually eternal) form emerging (becoming instantiated physically) at the suitable time. So Platonic *evolution* of a kind would be fine for me; but Platonic *Darwinism* is for me an oxy-moron -- with the Darwin half referring to the "moron."Timaeus
December 14, 2012
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