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Larry Moran is a Desperate Man

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Larry Moran is desperate.  He said I do not understand Darwinism.  I called him out and challenged him to demonstrate his claim.  He has now put up two posts in response, and they both fail miserably.

In the first post he flails about over the term “Darwinism” and says I mistakenly equate that term with “Neo-Darwinism” and the “Modern Synthesis.”  As evidence of my confusion he points to the UD glossary.  But that very glossary entry states that on this site we use the term “Darwinism” as shorthand for Neo-Darwinism or the modern synthesis, and then goes on to define those terms.

Note that Larry does not say UD’s definition of Neo-Darwinism or the modern synthesis is wrong.*  He says that when I use the word “Darwinism” as shorthand for Neo-Darwinism, it proves I don’t understand the difference between those two terms.  Astoundingly, the very glossary entry he points to proves him wrong.

In the second post he jumps on his favorite hobby horse, junk DNA:

He [i.e., Arrington] said that “Darwinists” predicted junk DNA and he states clearly that junk DNA is supposed to be “practically irrefutable evidence for the Darwinian hypothesis.”   But, as most Sandwalk readers know, nobody predicted junk DNA, certainly not Darwinists. 

(Emphasis added)

No Darwinist ever said the theory predicts junk DNA?  What about world famous Darwinist Francis Collins:

Darwin’s theory predicts that mutations that do not affect function, (namely, those located in “junk DNA” ) will accumulate steadily over time. Mutations in the coding region of genes, however, are expected to be observed less frequently, and only a rare such event will provide a selective advantage and be retained during the evolutionary process.” That is exactly what is observed.

Francis Collins, The Language of God, 2006

How about world famous Darwinist Jerry A. Coyne:

Perfect design would truly be the sign of a skilled and intelligent designer. Imperfect design is the mark of evolution; in fact, it’s precisely what we expect from evolution. . . .when a trait is no longer used or becomes reduced, the genes that make it don’t instantly disappear from the genome: Evolution strops their action by inactivating them, not snipping them out of the DNA. From this we can make a prediction. We expect to find, in the genomes of many species, silenced, or ‘dead,’ genes: genes that once were useful but re no longer intact or expressed. In other words, there should be vestigial genes. . . . the evolutionary prediction that we’ll find pseudogenes has been fulfilled – amply. Virtually ever species harbors dead genes, many of them still active in its relatives. This implies that some of those genes were also active in a common ancestor, and were killed off in some descendants but not in others. Out of about thirty thousand genes, for example, we humans carry more than two thousand pseudogenes. Our genome, – and that of other species – are truly well populated graveyards of dead genes

Jerry Coyne, Why Evolution is True, 2009

Examples could be multiplied, but you get the picture.

How embarrassing that biologist Larry has to be schooled on this subject by a lawyer.  Ouch.  That’s gotta smart.

Finally, notice how Larry lies about what I said just a few short paragraphs after he quotes me.  First he quotes me:

For years Darwinists touted “junk DNA” as not just any evidence but powerful, practically irrefutable evidence for the Darwinian hypothesis. ID proponents disagreed and argued that the evidence would ultimately demonstrate function.  Not only did both hypotheses make testable predictions, the Darwinist prediction turned out to be false and the ID prediction turned out to be confirmed.

Yes, I did write that.

Now notice Larry’s distortion later in the post:

Barry Arrington says that Darwinism predicted junk DNA and that junk DNA is strong evidence of the Darwinian hypothesis

No, I did not say that Darwinism predicted junk DNA.  I said Darwinists said the theory predicted junk DNA, and as I demonstrated above, they did.  And no, I did not say that junk DNA is strong evidence for the Darwinian hypothesis.  Those same Darwinists made that claim.  I said exactly the opposite, i.e., that ID proponents disagreed.

Larry, I have a question for you.  Why do you think making obviously false statements helps your case?  I’m not one of your poor captive students whom you can bully and give failing marks if I don’t toe your line.  This is not your classroom.  You can’t just make up facts to suit you as you go.

Things are not looking good for you Larry.  Two blog posts in and you have yet to provide a smidgen of evidence for your claim.

 

_________________

*To be sure, as is his wont, he engages is some genetic fallacy smears, but he never says a single word of the UD definition is wrong.

Comments
Andre, Lamarican evolution surely has some validity. However, it is a mechanism that is presumably developed via the magic of RM+NS. I know of nobody who seriously sees lamaricanism to be the fundamental driving force of evolution. Orthogenesis and Deterministic Evolution are bosom buddies. The are variants of the front loading hypothesis. They are telic, presumed to be "designed to evolve". goodusername, "Do you equate Darwinian with “evolutionary”?" No. Evolution is change over time. As such we all have evolutionary views. Darwinian is "via purely natural processes", specifically the processes of random (non-foresighted) variation + natural selection. RM+NS are presumed to be capable of developing sub-processes including human genetic engineering. (All of human engineering actually.)bFast
November 9, 2015
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Goodusername Non-Darwinian evolution; Lamarckism Orthogenesis Deterministic Evolution There are examples of non-Darwinian evolution, I personally agree with Lamarckism or better known today as Epigenetics. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140918141448.htmAndre
November 9, 2015
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Ha! So genetic drift is Darwinian.
What does that even mean? How are you defining "Darwinian"? Do you equate Darwinian with "evolutionary"? If not, is there any evolutionary change that you wouldn't say is Darwinian?goodusername
November 9, 2015
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Ha! So genetic drift is Darwinian. Larry Moran is a Darwinist and that is a fact. Does the avarage Darwinist know what facts are?Andre
November 9, 2015
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Daniel pufferfish @ 47-
Variations neither useful nor injurious would not be affected by natural selection, and would be left either a fluctuating element, as perhaps we see in certain polymorphic species, or would ultimately become fixed, owing to the nature of the organism and the nature of the conditions.- On the Origins of Species sixth edition chapter 4, end of paragraph 1
Variations neither useful nor injurious would not be affected by natural selection, and would be left a fluctuating element, as perhaps we see in the species called polymorphic.- first edition
Virgil Cain
November 9, 2015
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Larry Moran:
How do you know this? Did some “Darwinists” tell you about alternative splicing? Why do you believe them when you don’t believe anything else they say?
Sorry but I only accept what there is evidence for.
What if it turns out that only a small percentage of mammalian genes are alternatively spliced, do you have another theory?
All I know is natural selection can't account for it. Drift can't account for it. Neutral theory can't account for it and creative neutral theory can't account for it. Did you read your own article on creative neutral theory? It is all contingent serendipity! Is that really your idea of science? But I digress, I don't know the number of different proteins in the human body. The number of genes is 20,000(ish) but I have read varying numbers on the protein side. And not knowing enough about the design of the genome I couldn't say why only a small fraction would utilize alternative splicing. But if you think that natural selection and drift- creative or not- can produce a spliceosome it is up to you to come up with some way to test that claim. Thank you for telling me that there are scientists who actually think that contingent serendipity/constructive neutral evolution, is a viable mechanism for creating adaptations. Please let Futuyma know as all his textbooks proudly proclaim that NS is the only known mechanism to produce adaptations. Unfortunately we don't even have evidence that it can. It is all done by proclamation- "Natural selection is the only mechanism capable of producing adaptations. Here are some adaptations produced by natural selection." Now he has to add contingent serendipity.Virgil Cain
November 9, 2015
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Thirdly, the alternative splicing code is 'species-specific'
Canadian Team Develops Alternative Splicing Code from Mouse Tissue Data Excerpt: “Our method takes as an input a collection of exons and surrounding intron sequences and data profiling how those exons are spliced in different tissues,” Frey and his co-authors wrote. “The method assembles a code that can predict how a transcript will be spliced in different tissues.” http://www.genomeweb.com/informatics/canadian-team-develops-alternative-splicing-code-mouse-tissue-data
And yet these supposed 'junk intron sequences', that Darwinists use to ignore (as Moran is desperately trying to do now), that were used to decipher the splicing code of different tissue types in an organism, are found to be exceptionally different between chimpanzees and Humans:
Modern origin of numerous alternatively spliced human introns from tandem arrays – 2006 Excerpt: A comparison with orthologous regions in mouse and chimpanzee suggests a young age for the human introns with the most-similar boundaries. Finally, we show that these human introns are alternatively spliced with exceptionally high frequency. http://www.pnas.org/content/104/3/882.full Characterization and potential functional significance of human-chimpanzee large INDEL variation - October 2011 Excerpt:,,, we categorized human-chimpanzee INDEL (Insertion, Deletion) variation mapping in or around genes and determined whether this variation is significantly correlated with previously determined differences in gene expression. Results: Extensive, large INDEL (Insertion, Deletion) variation exists between the human and chimpanzee genomes. This variation is primarily attributable to retrotransposon insertions within the human lineage. There is a significant correlation between differences in gene expression and large human-chimpanzee INDEL variation mapping in genes or in proximity to them. http://www.mobilednajournal.com/content/pdf/1759-8753-2-13.pdf
Jonathan Wells comments on the fallacious 'Darwinian Logic', within the preceding paper, that falsely tried to attribute the major differences that were found in INDEL variation to unguided Darwinian processes:
Darwinian Logic: The Latest on Chimp and Human DNA – Jonathan Wells - October 2011 Excerpt: Protein-coding regions of DNA in chimps and humans are remarkably similar -- 98%, by many estimates -- and this similarity has been used as evidence that the two species are descended from a common ancestor. Yet chimps and humans are very different anatomically and behaviorally, and even thirty years ago some biologists were speculating that those differences might be due to non-protein-coding regions, which make up about 98% of chimp and human DNA. (In other words, the 98% similarity refers to only 2% of the genome.) Now a research team headed by John F. McDonald at Georgia Tech has published evidence that large segments of non-protein-coding DNA differ significantly between chimps and humans,,,, If the striking similarities in protein-coding DNA point to the common ancestry of chimps and humans, why don’t dissimilarities in the much more abundant non-protein-coding DNA point to their separate origins? http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/10/the_latest_on_chimp_and_human052291.html
This following, more recent, paper also found that Alternative Splicing patterns are 'species specific':
Evolution by Splicing - Comparing gene transcripts from different species reveals surprising splicing diversity. - Ruth Williams - December 20, 2012 Excerpt: A major question in vertebrate evolutionary biology is “how do physical and behavioral differences arise if we have a very similar set of genes to that of the mouse, chicken, or frog?”,,, A commonly discussed mechanism was variable levels of gene expression, but both Blencowe and Chris Burge,,, found that gene expression is relatively conserved among species. On the other hand, the papers show that most alternative splicing events differ widely between even closely related species. “The alternative splicing patterns are very different even between humans and chimpanzees,” said Blencowe.,,, http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view%2FarticleNo%2F33782%2Ftitle%2FEvolution-by-Splicing%2F Gene Regulation Differences Between Humans, Chimpanzees Very Complex – Oct. 17, 2013 Excerpt: Although humans and chimpanzees share,, similar genomes, previous studies have shown that the species evolved major differences in mRNA (messenger RNA) expression levels.,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131017144632.htm ,,,Alternative splicing,,, may contribute to species differences - December 21, 2012 Excerpt: After analyzing vast amounts of genetic data, the researchers found that the same genes are expressed in the same tissue types, such as liver or heart, across mammalian species. However, alternative splicing patterns—which determine the segments of those genes included or excluded—vary from species to species.,,, The results from the alternative splicing pattern comparison were very different. Instead of clustering by tissue, the patterns clustered mostly by species. "Different tissues from the cow look more like the other cow tissues, in terms of splicing, than they do like the corresponding tissue in mouse or rat or rhesus," Burge says. Because splicing patterns are more specific to each species, it appears that splicing may contribute preferentially to differences between those species, Burge says,,, Excerpt of Abstract: To assess tissue-specific transcriptome variation across mammals, we sequenced complementary DNA from nine tissues from four mammals and one bird in biological triplicate, at unprecedented depth. We find that while tissue-specific gene expression programs are largely conserved, alternative splicing is well conserved in only a subset of tissues and is frequently lineage-specific. Thousands of previously unknown, lineage-specific, and conserved alternative exons were identified; http://phys.org/news/2012-12-evolution-alternative-splicing-rna-rewires.html
Of related interest: The position and organization of genes on the chromosome is not arbitrary
Refereed scientific article on DNA argues for irreducible complexity - October 2, 2013 Excerpt: This paper published online this summer is a true mind-blower showing the irreducible organizational complexity (author’s description) of DNA analog and digital information, that genes are not arbitrarily positioned on the chromosome etc.,, ,,,First, the digital information of individual genes (semantics) is dependent on the the intergenic regions (as we know) which is like analog information (syntax). Both types of information are co-dependent and self-referential but you can’t get syntax from semantics. As the authors state, “thus the holistic approach assumes self-referentiality (completeness of the contained information and full consistency of the different codes) as an irreducible organizational complexity of the genetic regulation system of any cell”. In short, the linear DNA sequence contains both types of information. Second, the paper links local DNA structure, to domains, to the overall chromosome configuration as a dynamic system keying off the metabolic signals of the cell. This implies that the position and organization of genes on the chromosome is not arbitrary,,, http://www.christianscientific.org/refereed-scientific-article-on-dna-argues-for-irreducibly-complexity
bornagain
November 9, 2015
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Alternative splicing is another evidence that falsifies Darwinian evolution. First off, codes must be implemented top down. It is physically impossible to evolve a code from the bottom up. All of our empirical evidence confirms this fact. In fact, so solid is this scientific fact that Perry Marshall has organized a 3 million dollar prize for the first person who can prove to the contrary that codes can possibly evolve in a bottom up Darwinian fashion without a mind. In other words, it ain’t going to happen. A technical way of understanding this fact is ‘Shannon channel capacity’
“Because of Shannon channel capacity that previous (first) codon alphabet had to be at least as complex as the current codon alphabet (DNA code), otherwise transferring the information from the simpler alphabet into the current alphabet would have been mathematically impossible” Donald E. Johnson – Bioinformatics: The Information in Life
But an easier way of understanding why a code will never evolve in a gradual bottom up Darwinian fashion is elucidated by Dawkins himself:
Venter vs. Dawkins on the Tree of Life – and Another Dawkins Whopper – March 2011 Excerpt:,,, But first, let’s look at the reason Dawkins gives for why the code must be universal: “The reason is interesting. Any mutation in the genetic code itself (as opposed to mutations in the genes that it encodes) would have an instantly catastrophic effect, not just in one place but throughout the whole organism. If any word in the 64-word dictionary changed its meaning, so that it came to specify a different amino acid, just about every protein in the body would instantaneously change, probably in many places along its length. Unlike an ordinary mutation…this would spell disaster.” (2009, p. 409-10) OK. Keep Dawkins’ claim of universality in mind, along with his argument for why the code must be universal, and then go here (linked site listing 23 variants of the genetic code). Simple counting question: does “one or two” equal 23? That’s the number of known variant genetic codes compiled by the National Center for Biotechnology Information. By any measure, Dawkins is off by an order of magnitude, times a factor of two. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/03/venter_vs_dawkins_on_the_tree_044681.html
The bottom line is that if any code is ‘randomly changed’ in part, it throws a huge monkey wrench into the code and will be ‘instantly catastrophic’, to use Richard Dawkins most appropriate term, to the species thus rendering gradual change to the code impossible. In other words, the entire code must be implemented ‘top down’! Please note, this is not randomly changing sequences within the code that we are talking about, this is talking about making changes to a code itself. The reason I bring this non-evolvability of codes up is because of alternative splicing codes. Namely, alternative splicing codes are found to be ‘species-specific’. First off, there is an alternative splicing code:
Deciphering the splicing code - May 2010 Excerpt: Here we describe the assembly of a ‘splicing code’, which uses combinations of hundreds of RNA features to predict tissue-dependent changes in alternative splicing for thousands of exons. The code determines new classes of splicing patterns, identifies distinct regulatory programs in different tissues, and identifies mutation-verified regulatory sequences.,,, http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v465/n7294/full/nature09000.html Breakthrough: Second Genetic Code Revealed - May 2010 Excerpt: The paper is a triumph of information science that sounds reminiscent of the days of the World War II codebreakers. Their methods included algebra, geometry, probability theory, vector calculus, information theory, code optimization, and other advanced methods. One thing they had no need of was evolutionary theory,,, http://crev.info/content/breakthrough_second_genetic_code_revealed Researchers Crack 'Splicing Code,' Solve a Mystery Underlying Biological Complexity - May 2010 Excerpt: "Understanding a complex biological system is like understanding a complex electronic circuit. Our team 'reverse-engineered' the splicing code using large-scale experimental data generated by the group," http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100505133252.htm
Secondly, alternative splicing is astonishing:
Researchers Crack ‘Splicing Code,’ Solve a Mystery Underlying Biological Complexity Excerpt: “For example, three neurexin genes can generate over 3,000 genetic messages that help control the wiring of the brain,” says Frey. “Previously, researchers couldn’t predict how the genetic messages would be rearranged, or spliced, within a living cell,” Frey said. “The splicing code that we discovered has been successfully used to predict how thousands of genetic messages are rearranged differently in many different tissues. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100505133252.htm Design In DNA – Alternative Splicing, Duons, and Dual coding genes – video (5:05 minute mark) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm67oXKtH3s#t=305 The Extreme Complexity Of Genes – Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8593991/ Time to Redefine the Concept of a Gene? - Sept. 10, 2012 Excerpt: As detailed in my second post on alternative splicing, there is one human gene that codes for 576 different proteins, and there is one fruit fly gene that codes for 38,016 different proteins! While the fact that a single gene can code for so many proteins is truly astounding, we didn’t really know how prevalent alternative splicing is. Are there only a few genes that participate in it, or do most genes engage in it? The ENCODE data presented in reference 2 indicates that at least 75% of all genes participate in alternative splicing. They also indicate that the number of different proteins each gene makes varies significantly, with most genes producing somewhere between 2 and 25. Based on these results, it seems clear that the RNA transcripts are the real carriers of genetic information. This is why some members of the ENCODE team are arguing that an RNA transcript, not a gene, should be considered the fundamental unit of inheritance. http://networkedblogs.com/BYdo8 Landscape of transcription in human cells – Sept. 6, 2012 Excerpt: Here we report evidence that three-quarters of the human genome is capable of being transcribed, as well as observations about the range and levels of expression, localization, processing fates, regulatory regions and modifications of almost all currently annotated and thousands of previously unannotated RNAs. These observations, taken together, prompt a redefinition of the concept of a gene.,,, Isoform expression by a gene does not follow a minimalistic expression strategy, resulting in a tendency for genes to express many isoforms simultaneously, with a plateau at about 10–12 expressed isoforms per gene per cell line. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v489/n7414/full/nature11233.html
bornagain
November 9, 2015
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constructive neutral evolution
Michael Behe on the theory of constructive neutral evolution - February 2012 Excerpt: I don’t mean to be unkind, but I think that the idea seems reasonable only to the extent that it is vague and undeveloped; when examined critically it quickly loses plausibility. The first thing to note about the paper is that it contains absolutely no calculations to support the feasibility of the model. This is inexcusable. - Michael Behe https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/michael-behe-on-the-theory-of-constructive-neutral-evolution/
bornagain
November 9, 2015
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Virgil Cain says,
Darwin only said that the appearance of design was to be attributed to natural selection. He wrote about random drift but he knew it isn’t a creative mechanism. So yes, drift is part of Darwinism and neo-Darwinism and has been since 1859.
If it's important, maybe you should ask Barry Arrington to put it into the glossary entry on "Darwinism" so everyone will know that this is what Darwin said? As for drift being creative, have you read ... Constructive Neutral Evolution (CNE) Do you understand it? Is it part of your "Darwinism" theory? I'm not asking to to accept or believe in something like constructive neutral evolution but you should at least know about it before you say what you think evolutionary biologists believe. It's simply not true to say that natural selection is the only possible, unguided, way to create the appearance of design and complexity.Larry Moran
November 9, 2015
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Virgil Cain says,
Mammals have introns and exons. This is for alternative splicing.
How do you know this? Did some "Darwinists" tell you about alternative splicing? Why do you believe them when you don't believe anything else they say? What if it turns out that only a small percentage of mammalian genes are alternatively spliced, do you have another theory? Alternative Splicing and Why IDiots Don't Understand How Science Works How much intron sequence is needed for alternative splicing? I have estimated that it's no more than 80 bp. That only accounts for a tiny percentage of the human genome. Why Do the IDiots Have So Much Trouble Understanding Introns? Larry Moran
November 9, 2015
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Darwin, 1859Virgil Cain
November 9, 2015
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He [Darwin] wrote about random drift but he knew it isn’t a creative mechanism. So yes, drift is part of Darwinism and neo-Darwinism and has been since 1859.
You made that up. Prove it.Daniel King
November 9, 2015
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It is interesting to note that Darwinists have been postulating, theorizing, and hypothesizing, galore for years as to how information just might arise by unguided material processes, but in all this postulating, theorizing, and hypothesizing galore, by Darwinists you will never find an empirical demonstration of unguided material processes ever actually creating any information. In other words, all the postulating, theorizing, and hypothesizing, galore by Darwinists is all smoke and mirrors to cover up the embarrassing fact that material processes cannot create information. Just one observed instance of unguided material processes creating non-trivial functional information would falsify ID.
The Origin of Information: How to Solve It - Perry Marshall Where did the information in DNA come from? This is one of the most important and valuable questions in the history of science. Cosmic Fingerprints has issued a challenge to the scientific community: “Show an example of Information that doesn’t come from a mind. All you need is one.” “Information” is defined as digital communication between an encoder and a decoder, using agreed upon symbols. To date, no one has shown an example of a naturally occurring encoding / decoding system, i.e. one that has demonstrably come into existence without a designer. A private equity investment group is offering a technology prize for this discovery. We will financially reward and publicize the first person who can solve this;,,, To solve this problem is far more than an object of abstract religious or philosophical discussion. It would demonstrate a mechanism for producing coding systems, thus opening up new channels of scientific discovery. Such a find would have sweeping implications for Artificial Intelligence research. http://cosmicfingerprints.com/solve/ The Law of Physicodynamic Incompleteness - David L. Abel Excerpt: "If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise." If only one exception to this null hypothesis were published, the hypothesis would be falsified. Falsification would require an experiment devoid of behind-the-scenes steering. Any artificial selection hidden in the experimental design would disqualify the experimental falsification. After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: "No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone." https://www.academia.edu/Documents/in/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Incompleteness
Whereas ID can easily be falsified by experimental observation, Darwinists, on the other hand, have no such falsification criteria:
“The National Academy of Sciences has objected that intelligent design is not falsifiable, and I think that’s just the opposite of the truth. Intelligent design is very open to falsification. I claim, for example, that the bacterial flagellum could not be produced by natural selection; it needed to be deliberately intelligently designed. Well, all a scientist has to do to prove me wrong is to take a bacterium without a flagellum, or knock out the genes for the flagellum in a bacterium, go into his lab and grow that bug for a long time and see if it produces anything resembling a flagellum. If that happened, intelligent design, as I understand it, would be knocked out of the water. I certainly don’t expect it to happen, but it’s easily falsified by a series of such experiments. Now let’s turn that around and ask, How do we falsify the contention that natural selection produced the bacterial flagellum? If that same scientist went into the lab and knocked out the bacterial flagellum genes, grew the bacterium for a long time, and nothing much happened, well, he’d say maybe we didn’t start with the right bacterium, maybe we didn’t wait long enough, maybe we need a bigger population, and it would be very much more difficult to falsify the Darwinian hypothesis. I think the very opposite is true. I think intelligent design is easily testable, easily falsifiable, although it has not been falsified, and Darwinism is very resistant to being falsified. They can always claim something was not right.” - Dr Michael Behe "Now, one can’t have it both ways. One can’t say both that ID is unfalsifiable (or untestable) and that there is evidence against it. Either it is unfalsifiable and floats serenely beyond experimental reproach, or it can be criticized on the basis of our observations and is therefore testable. The fact that critical reviewers advance scientific arguments against ID (whether successfully or not) shows that intelligent design is indeed falsifiable. In fact, my argument for intelligent design is open to direct experimental rebuttal. Here is a thought experiment that makes the point clear. In Darwin’s Black Box (Behe 1996) I claimed that the bacterial flagellum was irreducibly complex and so required deliberate intelligent design. The flip side of this claim is that the flagellum can’t be produced by natural selection acting on random mutation, or any other unintelligent process. To falsify such a claim, a scientist could go into the laboratory, place a bacterial species lacking a flagellum under some selective pressure (for mobility, say), grow it for ten thousand generations, and see if a flagellum--or any equally complex system--was produced. If that happened, my claims would be neatly disproven." Michael Behe - clipped from: Confirmation of intelligent design predictions http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1659-confirmation-of-intelligent-design-predictions
Without such a rigid falsification criteria, Darwinian evolution, sans Popper, does not even really qualify as a science:
"In so far as a scientific statement speaks about reality, it must be falsifiable; and in so far as it is not falsifiable, it does not speak about reality." Karl Popper - The Two Fundamental Problems of the Theory of Knowledge (2014 edition), Routledge “On the other hand, I disagree that Darwin’s theory is as `solid as any explanation in science.; Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?” - Berlinski, D., “A Scientific Scandal?: David Berlinski & Critics,” Commentary, July 8, 2003
Also of note, despite all the mathematical theorizing that Moran prides himself in, the fact of the matter is that Darwinian evolution has no rigid mathematical basis to test against:
Active Information in Metabiology – Winston Ewert, William A. Dembski, Robert J. Marks II – 2013 Except page 9: Chaitin states [3], “For many years I have thought that it is a mathematical scandal that we do not have proof that Darwinian evolution works.” In fact, mathematics has consistently demonstrated that undirected Darwinian evolution does not work.,, Consistent with the laws of conservation of information, natural selection can only work using the guidance of active information, which can be provided only by a designer. http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2013.4/BIO-C.2013.4
Chaitin is quoted at 10:00 minute mark of following video in regards to Darwinism lack of a mathematical proof - Dr. Marks also comments on the honesty of Chaitin in personally admitting that his long sought after mathematical proof for Darwinian evolution failed to deliver the goods.
On Algorithmic Specified Complexity by Robert J. Marks II - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No3LZmPcwyg&feature=player_detailpage#t=600 WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? Evolution is True - Roger Highfield - January 2014 Excerpt:,,, Whatever the case, those universal truths—'laws'—that physicists and chemists all rely upon appear relatively absent from biology. Little seems to have changed from a decade ago when the late and great John Maynard Smith wrote a chapter on evolutionary game theory for a book on the most powerful equations of science: his contribution did not include a single equation. http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25468 “It is our contention that if ‘random’ is given a serious and crucial interpretation from a probabilistic point of view, the randomness postulate is highly implausible and that an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the discovery and elucidation of new natural laws—physical, physico-chemical, and biological.” Murray Eden, “Inadequacies of Neo-Darwinian Evolution as a Scientific Theory,” Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution, editors Paul S. Moorhead and Martin M. Kaplan, June 1967, p. 109. Pauli’s ideas on mind and matter in the context of contemporary science - Harald Atmanspacher Excerpt: “In discussions with biologists I met large difficulties when they apply the concept of ‘natural selection’ in a rather wide field, without being able to estimate the probability of the occurrence in a empirically given time of just those events, which have been important for the biological evolution. Treating the empirical time scale of the evolution theoretically as infinity they have then an easy game, apparently to avoid the concept of purposesiveness. While they pretend to stay in this way completely ‘scientific’ and ‘rational,’ they become actually very irrational, particularly because they use the word ‘chance’, not any longer combined with estimations of a mathematically defined probability, in its application to very rare single events more or less synonymous with the old word ‘miracle.’” Wolfgang Pauli (pp. 27-28) http://www.igpp.de/english/tda/pdf/paulijcs8.pdf
ID suffers no such embarrassment as Darwinian evolution suffers for having no rigid mathematical basis within science
Evolutionary Computing: The Invisible Hand of Intelligence - June 17, 2015 Excerpt: William Dembski and Robert Marks have shown that no evolutionary algorithm is superior to blind search -- unless information is added from an intelligent cause, which means it is not, in the Darwinian sense, an evolutionary algorithm after all. This mathematically proven law, based on the accepted No Free Lunch Theorems, seems to be lost on the champions of evolutionary computing. Researchers keep confusing an evolutionary algorithm (a form of artificial selection) with "natural evolution." ,,, Marks and Dembski account for the invisible hand required in evolutionary computing. The Lab's website states, "The principal theme of the lab's research is teasing apart the respective roles of internally generated and externally applied information in the performance of evolutionary systems." So yes, systems can evolve, but when they appear to solve a problem (such as generating complex specified information or reaching a sufficiently narrow predefined target), intelligence can be shown to be active. Any internally generated information is conserved or degraded by the law of Conservation of Information.,,, What Marks and Dembski prove is as scientifically valid and relevant as Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem in mathematics. You can't prove a system of mathematics from within the system, and you can't derive an information-rich pattern from within the pattern.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/06/evolutionary_co_1096931.html
bornagain
November 9, 2015
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My apologies to John Lennon: Imagine all mutations It’s easy if you try With no limitations They gave us you & I Imagine all mutations occurring every day Imagine there’s no mutant It isn’t hard to do Exact clones to kill or die for And equilibrium too Imagine all that stasis clogging up the tree You may say it’s evolution When it is all said and done Natural selection is just impotent And drift gets nothing done (work in progress)Virgil Cain
November 9, 2015
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Larry Moran:
Lynch and Marinov show that the cost is significant in bacterial populations but insignificant in the populations of large multicellular species.
So it isn't costly.
It’s perfectly understandable according to modern evolutionary theory that includes population genetics, Neutral Theory, and random genetic drift.
Can you please reference this modern evolutionary theory so we can read what it says?
How do you account for the purging of short non-functional DNA sequences in bacteria but not in mammals?
Bacteria don't need extra DNA to fill for the DNA coils. They don't need extra memory for the added programming required to run eukaryotes. They are streamlined for fast reproduction. Spiegelman's monster applies. Mammals have introns and exons. This is for alternative splicing. They have their DNA wrapped into coils and the extra DNA is used for spacing along those coils.Virgil Cain
November 9, 2015
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Virgil Cain asks,
What is that cost, Larry? Please show your work.
The cost of a new gene Lynch and Marinov show that the cost is significant in bacterial populations but insignificant in the populations of large multicellular species. It's perfectly understandable according to modern evolutionary theory that includes population genetics, Neutral Theory, and random genetic drift. How do you account for the purging of short non-functional DNA sequences in bacteria but not in mammals? Can you show me where that fits into your understanding of Darwinism as outlined in the glossary? Please try hard to answer the question.Larry Moran
November 9, 2015
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"Why do evos insist up on the term evolutionary theory, which only leads to confusion (because there isn’t any such thing)?" Spot on Mr Cain. When Evolutionists can't agree on what the theory is, then it is ridiculous for evolutionists to use the term "evolutionary theory"Jack Jones
November 9, 2015
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Zachriel:
Why do IDers insist up on the term Darwinism, which only leads to confusion?
Why do evos insist up on the term evolutionary theory, which only leads to confusion (because there isn't any such thing)?Virgil Cain
November 9, 2015
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Larry Moran doesn't understand darwinism:
That’s a problem for Darwinists because carrying that extra DNA is costly...
What is that cost, Larry? Please show your work. Thanks to the ever efficient intelligent design of ATP synthase my bet is the cost is low and unnoticed. But that is because the alleged junk is actually used for something and the cost accounted for.
...and should be selected against by natural selection.
Whatever is good enough gets to survive and reproduce, Larry. Natural selection isn't an anal-retentive perfectionist. It doesn't optimize. It eliminates and due to cooperation what gets eliminated is often those that have no chance at all. Natural selection is just the only mechanism posited to explain the appearance of design in living organisms. Drift boils down to luck and there is only so much luck science can accept in an explanation.Virgil Cain
November 9, 2015
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Barry Arrington says,
No, I did not say that Darwinism predicted junk DNA. I said Darwinists said the theory predicted junk DNA, and as I demonstrated above, they did. And no, I did not say that junk DNA is strong evidence for the Darwinian hypothesis. Those same Darwinists made that claim. I said exactly the opposite, i.e., that ID proponents disagreed.
This seems like unnecessary quibbling to me. True, you said that "Darwinists" predicted junk DNA not that "Darwinism" predicted junk DNA. Presumably you have in mind some sort of Venn diagram where there's an incomplete overlap between "Darwinists" and proponents of "Darwinism." When I said ...
Barry Arrington says that Darwinism predicted junk DNA and that junk DNA is strong evidence of the Darwinian hypothesis.
I did not mean to imply that YOU predicted junk DNA and YOU think that junk DNA is strong evidence of Darwinism. Nor did I mean to imply that anyone but "Darwinists" make such a claim, according to YOUR view of the field. I'm not sure what your problem is. Do you think that Darwinists are wrong and Darwinism DOESN'T predict the existence of junk DNA? Do you think that the "Darwinists" are wrong and junk DNA is NOT strong evidence of Darwinism? Because if that's what you think then we agree. Junk DNA refutes Darwinism. Problem is, no true "Darwinist" will disagree. It's all very confusing. Can you answer my questions?Larry Moran
November 9, 2015
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Pseudogenes- if evolution proceeds by breaking things and keeping them around then I am sure everyone can understand the problem.Virgil Cain
November 9, 2015
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Zachriel:
Someone can support evolutionary theory without making such a claim about the origin of life.
How? If the OoL was designed then organisms were designed to evolve. Only if the OoL was due to physicochemical processes would we say that is how evolution proceeds.Virgil Cain
November 9, 2015
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The quotation from Jerry Coyne is about pseudogenes. Again, this is a minor part of the junk DNA debate. Jerry is saying that when a gene is rendered inactive by mutation it is not immediately purged from the genome. This seems pretty obvious—I don't know anyone who thinks otherwise. I think we can all understand why new pseudogenes don't disappear right away but the question is why do they persist for millions of years? That's a problem for Darwinists because carrying that extra DNA is costly and should be selected against by natural selection. They persist because they are effectively neutral in populations with a small population size like mammals. They are invisible to natural selection and will only be eliminated by random genetic drift—a low probability event. They are purged from bacterial genomes because bacterial species have huge population sizes. This concept is not covered in the glossary entry on "Darwinism" so I assume that it's something the ID version of Darwinism can't explain. Of course, this has nothing to do with the real debate over junk DNA because pseudogenes are a minor player in that debate. One thing puzzles me, though. Barry Arrington said ...
This statement [by Elizabeth Liddle] is breathtakingly false. Let us take just one example. For years Darwinists touted “junk DNA” as not just any evidence but powerful, practically irrefutable evidence for the Darwinian hypothesis. ID proponents disagreed and argued that the evidence would ultimately demonstrate function. Not only did both hypotheses make testable predictions, the Darwinist prediction turned out to be false and the ID prediction turned out to be confirmed.
If the discussion is going to focus on pseudogenes then what is Barry's stance? Does he believe that there's no such thing as pseudogenes and all of them has been shown to be functional according to ID predictions? That's the implication from what he said to Elizabeth Liddle and the fact that he concentrates on pseudogenes in this post. So, is it fair to say that ID proponents reject the idea of pseudogenes and claim that they all have a function? Is that in conflict with the kind of Darwinism described in the glossary or is it compatible with a strong emphasis on the role of natural selection? If pseudogenes are really pseudogenes, do ID proponents admit that at least some parts of the genome are junk? What part of the glossary entry on "Darwinism" predicts such a thing?Larry Moran
November 9, 2015
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"Moran reserves ... " I don't include Moran in the camp of "we". Moran's position is infantile. Bornagain uses it to refer to “reductive materialism” How does "reductive materialism" differ from my definition? "Coyne argues it should refer to modern evolutionary theory." And how does that differ to my definition with the exception of scope? (One could argue that by including OOL, I have stepped beyond the scope of MET.) Oh, and, is there any evidence anywhere that Coyne holds any view of OOL other than the definition I use when referring to Darwinism?bFast
November 9, 2015
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The quotation from Francis Collins is irrelevant. What he's saying is that IF there is junk DNA THEN mutations will accumulate in that stretch of DNA. The reason they will occur and become fixed is because they are neutral with respect to selection so they will be fixed by random genetic drift. Collins says that this is predicted by Darwin's theory but this is clearly false since Darwin never described such a situation. It's also false according to the glossary entry on "Darwinism" since there's no mention there of neutral alleles or random genetic drift. Besides, Francis Collins reverted to the traditional "Darwinist" view of complex genomes over a decade ago. He now believes that most of the human genome is functional and that we shouldn't use the term "junk DNA." Classical pseudogenes are a minor exception. They are junk but they make up less than 1% of the genome if you only count exons. They just don't count for very much in the junk DNA debate. Even encode acknowledges them.Larry Moran
November 9, 2015
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bFast: While it is true that OOL is the purview of a different branch of science, those who hold to the Darwinian model hold to the assumption that RV+NS explains the origin of life as well as its development. That's not necessarily the case. Someone can support evolutionary theory without making such a claim about the origin of life. bFast: A term is needed. Philosophical naturalists may be what you are looking for. bFast: “Darwinism” is a compact, four-syllable term for “modern evolutionary theory,” Jerry Coyne. Unfortunately, it leads to confusion. Furthermore, it is not the same as the definition you just provided. bFast: When we write Darwinist, you know exactly what we mean. No. It varies too much between people. Moran reserves it for those who think most of evolution is explained by natural selection, which is how it is mostly used in biology. Bornagain uses it to refer to "reductive materialism". You claim it refers to all aspects of life including its origin. Coyne argues it should refer to modern evolutionary theory.Zachriel
November 9, 2015
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Zachriel, "As evolutionary theory only concerns the diversification of life and not its origin, that would not be a suitable definition." RRRRR, Error! While it is true that OOL is the purview of a different branch of science, those who hold to the Darwinian model hold to the assumption that RV+NS explains the origin of life as well as its development. Zachriel, "Why do IDers insist up on the term Darwinism, which only leads to confusion?" A term is needed. I have asked frequently for another term. Your side has offered such loaded responses as "evolutionary scientists". A bit wordy, but mostly a very loaded term. When we write Darwinist, you know exactly what we mean. Therefore the confusion is in your determination to declare it confusing, not with our term. Lastly: " “Darwinism” is a compact, four-syllable term for “modern evolutionary theory,” Jerry Coyne. If its good enough for the great guru Coyne, it is good enough for me.bFast
November 9, 2015
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bFast: Darwinism: a: Those who propose that non-foresighted variation + natural selection, along with its products, can explain all of life. As evolutionary theory only concerns the diversification of life and not its origin, that would not be a suitable definition. Why do IDers insist up on the term Darwinism, which only leads to confusion?Zachriel
November 9, 2015
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Zachriel:
A Darwinist would generally accept some vestigialism in the genome, but many would probably think that it gets weeded out over time, rather than accumulating.
A Darwinist can accept as much junk DNA as is allowed, ie isn't fatal.Virgil Cain
November 9, 2015
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