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Larry Moran is a Desperate Man

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Larry Moran is desperate.  He said I do not understand Darwinism.  I called him out and challenged him to demonstrate his claim.  He has now put up two posts in response, and they both fail miserably.

In the first post he flails about over the term “Darwinism” and says I mistakenly equate that term with “Neo-Darwinism” and the “Modern Synthesis.”  As evidence of my confusion he points to the UD glossary.  But that very glossary entry states that on this site we use the term “Darwinism” as shorthand for Neo-Darwinism or the modern synthesis, and then goes on to define those terms.

Note that Larry does not say UD’s definition of Neo-Darwinism or the modern synthesis is wrong.*  He says that when I use the word “Darwinism” as shorthand for Neo-Darwinism, it proves I don’t understand the difference between those two terms.  Astoundingly, the very glossary entry he points to proves him wrong.

In the second post he jumps on his favorite hobby horse, junk DNA:

He [i.e., Arrington] said that “Darwinists” predicted junk DNA and he states clearly that junk DNA is supposed to be “practically irrefutable evidence for the Darwinian hypothesis.”   But, as most Sandwalk readers know, nobody predicted junk DNA, certainly not Darwinists. 

(Emphasis added)

No Darwinist ever said the theory predicts junk DNA?  What about world famous Darwinist Francis Collins:

Darwin’s theory predicts that mutations that do not affect function, (namely, those located in “junk DNA” ) will accumulate steadily over time. Mutations in the coding region of genes, however, are expected to be observed less frequently, and only a rare such event will provide a selective advantage and be retained during the evolutionary process.” That is exactly what is observed.

Francis Collins, The Language of God, 2006

How about world famous Darwinist Jerry A. Coyne:

Perfect design would truly be the sign of a skilled and intelligent designer. Imperfect design is the mark of evolution; in fact, it’s precisely what we expect from evolution. . . .when a trait is no longer used or becomes reduced, the genes that make it don’t instantly disappear from the genome: Evolution strops their action by inactivating them, not snipping them out of the DNA. From this we can make a prediction. We expect to find, in the genomes of many species, silenced, or ‘dead,’ genes: genes that once were useful but re no longer intact or expressed. In other words, there should be vestigial genes. . . . the evolutionary prediction that we’ll find pseudogenes has been fulfilled – amply. Virtually ever species harbors dead genes, many of them still active in its relatives. This implies that some of those genes were also active in a common ancestor, and were killed off in some descendants but not in others. Out of about thirty thousand genes, for example, we humans carry more than two thousand pseudogenes. Our genome, – and that of other species – are truly well populated graveyards of dead genes

Jerry Coyne, Why Evolution is True, 2009

Examples could be multiplied, but you get the picture.

How embarrassing that biologist Larry has to be schooled on this subject by a lawyer.  Ouch.  That’s gotta smart.

Finally, notice how Larry lies about what I said just a few short paragraphs after he quotes me.  First he quotes me:

For years Darwinists touted “junk DNA” as not just any evidence but powerful, practically irrefutable evidence for the Darwinian hypothesis. ID proponents disagreed and argued that the evidence would ultimately demonstrate function.  Not only did both hypotheses make testable predictions, the Darwinist prediction turned out to be false and the ID prediction turned out to be confirmed.

Yes, I did write that.

Now notice Larry’s distortion later in the post:

Barry Arrington says that Darwinism predicted junk DNA and that junk DNA is strong evidence of the Darwinian hypothesis

No, I did not say that Darwinism predicted junk DNA.  I said Darwinists said the theory predicted junk DNA, and as I demonstrated above, they did.  And no, I did not say that junk DNA is strong evidence for the Darwinian hypothesis.  Those same Darwinists made that claim.  I said exactly the opposite, i.e., that ID proponents disagreed.

Larry, I have a question for you.  Why do you think making obviously false statements helps your case?  I’m not one of your poor captive students whom you can bully and give failing marks if I don’t toe your line.  This is not your classroom.  You can’t just make up facts to suit you as you go.

Things are not looking good for you Larry.  Two blog posts in and you have yet to provide a smidgen of evidence for your claim.

 

_________________

*To be sure, as is his wont, he engages is some genetic fallacy smears, but he never says a single word of the UD definition is wrong.

Comments
Darwin only said that the appearance of design was to be attributed to natural selection. He wrote about random drift but he knew it isn't a creative mechanism. So yes, drift is part of Darwinism and neo-Darwinism and has been since 1859.Virgil Cain
November 9, 2015
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Zachriel, "Darwinism ... often refers to someone who thinks that evolution proceeds primarily by natural selection." Zachriel, "Darwinism is a word with several related meanings." Yes, Zachriel, the latter is correct. Darwinism is a word with several related meanings. You know right well which meaning is used by the supporters of this site. For you to disrespect that position is just equivocation, obfuscation. From dictionary of bfast: Darwinism: a: Those who propose that non-foresighted variation + natural selection, along with its products, can explain all of life. b: Someone who thinks that evolution proceeds primarily by natural selection. For the purposes of productive dialog, please use definition a above for all general discussion purposes on this blog. Then productivity may happen, rather than a bunch of equivocation.bFast
November 9, 2015
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Barry, The irony.... Jack Jones:
Larry Moran is pathetic. He deletes comments of the opposition that show him up but allows his minions who contribute nothing to the discussion, to attack people for not accepting Moran’s claims as pearls of wisdom that must remain unchallenged.
Carpathian
November 9, 2015
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Zachriel, whatever splitting hairs view you want to adopt on Darwinism, it is still wrong. Primarily the reason Darwinism, and all its current many headed snake versions, are wrong is because the reductive materialism upon which Darwinism rests is now empirically shown to be wrong. The empirical falsification of Darwinism is as such. Darwinian presuppositions hold that all the information, (and even consciousness), in life is merely an ‘emergent’ property of a material basis, but it is now found that beyond space and time, non-local, ‘quantum information’, which is not reducible to a material basis, is in molecular biology. First, it is important to learn that ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, quantum entanglement (A. Aspect, A. Zeilinger, etc..) can be used as a ‘quantum information channel’,,,
Quantum Entanglement and Information Quantum entanglement is a physical resource, like energy, associated with the peculiar nonclassical correlations that are possible between separated quantum systems. Entanglement can be measured, transformed, and purified. A pair of quantum systems in an entangled state can be used as a quantum information channel to perform computational and cryptographic tasks that are impossible for classical systems. The general study of the information-processing capabilities of quantum systems is the subject of quantum information theory. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-entangle/
And this non-local quantum information is now found in molecular biology on a massive scale, in every DNA and Protein molecule
Classical and Quantum Information in DNA – Elisabeth Rieper – video (Longitudinal Quantum Information along the entire length of DNA discussed at the 19:30 minute mark; at 24:00 minute mark Dr Rieper remarks that practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it) https://youtu.be/2nqHOnVTxJE?t=1176 Classical and Quantum Information Channels in Protein Chain - Dj. Koruga, A. Tomi?, Z. Ratkaj, L. Matija - 2006 Abstract: Investigation of the properties of peptide plane in protein chain from both classical and quantum approach is presented. We calculated interatomic force constants for peptide plane and hydrogen bonds between peptide planes in protein chain. On the basis of force constants, displacements of each atom in peptide plane, and time of action we found that the value of the peptide plane action is close to the Planck constant. This indicates that peptide plane from the energy viewpoint possesses synergetic classical/quantum properties. Consideration of peptide planes in protein chain from information viewpoint also shows that protein chain possesses classical and quantum properties. So, it appears that protein chain behaves as a triple dual system: (1) structural - amino acids and peptide planes, (2) energy - classical and quantum state, and (3) information - classical and quantum coding. Based on experimental facts of protein chain, we proposed from the structure-energy-information viewpoint its synergetic code system. http://www.scientific.net/MSF.518.491 Quantum coherent-like state observed in a biological protein for the first time - October 13, 2015 Excerpt: If you take certain atoms and make them almost as cold as they possibly can be, the atoms will fuse into a collective low-energy quantum state called a Bose-Einstein condensate. In 1968 physicist Herbert Fröhlich predicted that a similar process at a much higher temperature could concentrate all of the vibrational energy in a biological protein into its lowest-frequency vibrational mode. Now scientists in Sweden and Germany have the first experimental evidence of such so-called Fröhlich condensation (in proteins).,,, The real-world support for Fröhlich's theory (for proteins) took so long to obtain because of the technical challenges of the experiment, Katona said. http://phys.org/news/2015-10-quantum-coherent-like-state-biological-protein.html
Of related note, like entanglement, quantum coherence is a 'non-local', beyond space and time, effect:
Coherence and nonlocality Usually quantum nonlocality is discussed in terms of correlated multiparticle systems such as those discussed by John Bell in his famous 1964 theorem and then later clarified by GHZ, David Mermin and others. But more striking and significant is the qualitative nonlocal phenomena associated with coherent states,,,, In fact, theoretically these two kinds of nonlocality have precisely the same basis: the unmeasured singlet state uncovered by EPR is a coherent 'pure state' despite its spacial extension, and when the parts are realized in a measurement (a la Bell) this coherence is harvested or cashed in. Whereas the "EPR" connections are ephemeral and fragile, some forms of nonlocal coherence are robust. http://www.nonlocal.com/hbar/nonlocalcoherence.html
And although Naturalists have proposed various, far fetched, naturalistic scenarios to try to get around the Theistic implications of quantum non-locality, none of the ‘far fetched’ naturalistic solutions, in themselves, are compatible with the reductive materialism that undergirds neo-Darwinian thought.
"[while a number of philosophical ideas] may be logically consistent with present quantum mechanics, ...materialism is not." Eugene Wigner Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism - video playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TViAqtowpvZy5PZpn-MoSK_&v=4C5pq7W5yRM Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism By Bruce L Gordon, Ph.D Excerpt: The underlying problem is this: there are correlations in nature that require a causal explanation but for which no physical explanation is in principle possible. Furthermore, the nonlocalizability of field quanta entails that these entities, whatever they are, fail the criterion of material individuality. So, paradoxically and ironically, the most fundamental constituents and relations of the material world cannot, in principle, be understood in terms of material substances. Since there must be some explanation for these things, the correct explanation will have to be one which is non-physical – and this is plainly incompatible with any and all varieties of materialism. http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbscience.aspx?pageid=8589952939
Thus, as far as empirical science itself is concerned, Neo-Darwinism is falsified in its claim that the information in molecular biology is ‘emergent’ from a reductive material basis. If Darwinism were a real science, instead of a religion for atheists, this finding, (as well as many other findings in the past), should have relegated Darwinism to the dustbin of disproven scientific theories
Snake bites its own body after head is severed - video http://www.metro.us/news/video-watch-this-snake-bite-itself-after-decapitation/tmWmho---95YYDy6SDAQ4w/ Top 10 Most Famous Scientific Theories (That Turned out to be Wrong) http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-most-famous-scientific-theories-that-turned-out-to-be-wrong.php
bornagain
November 9, 2015
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Zachriel Watch the debate and hear with your own earsAndre
November 9, 2015
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bornagain: Zach claims Dawkins is not a Darwinist? Didn't say that. Dawkins takes a gene-centric view of Darwinism.Zachriel
November 9, 2015
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So now, apparently to draw attention away from the elephant in the living room, Zach claims Dawkins is not a Darwinist? Incredible! Yes folks, this is absurdity dealt with day in and day out from Darwinists. Matthew 23:24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.bornagain
November 9, 2015
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bornagain: Junk DNA is just what a Darwinist would expect, in other words. No, not in other words. Darwinism is a word with several related meanings, but most often refers to someone who thinks that evolution proceeds primarily by natural selection. A Darwinist would generally accept some vestigialism in the genome, but many would probably think that it gets weeded out over time, rather than accumulating.Zachriel
November 9, 2015
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bFast: While your challenge is correct, Dawkins didn’t appear to say what was attributed to him, the dent you make in the argument is miniscule. The reason it's relevant is because the view was ascribed to a "Darwinist", which is not in the original quote.Zachriel
November 9, 2015
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Sorry Zach, I quoted Klinghoffer paraphrasing Dawkins. My mistake. Here is the cite.
Back in 2009, in The Greatest Show on Earth (pp. 332-333), he was presenting the supposed junkiness of the vast majority of the genome as an assured scientific reality and one that is, in the specific case of "pseudogenes," "useful for. . . embarrassing creationists." It stretches even their creative ingenuity to make a convincing reason why an intelligent designer should have created a pseudogene -- a gene that does absolutely nothing and gives every appearance of being a superannuated version of a gene that used to do something -- unless he was deliberately setting out to fool us. Dawkins goes on: Leaving pseudogenes aside, it is a remarkable fact that the greater part (95 percent in the case of humans) of the genome might as well not be there, for all the difference it makes. That was in 2009, just three years ago. Back then, the purported fact that 95 percent of the human genome "might as well not be there" was an embarrassment "for creationists," whom in typical Darwinian fashion Dawkins conveniently conflates with intelligent-design advocates. Junk DNA is just what a Darwinist would expect, in other words. Cut to 2012, and now the evident fact that "junk DNA" isn't junk at all but is instead vital for life has become "exactly what a Darwinist would hope for," namely, "to find usefulness in the living world." That is, heads you lose, tails I win. A wonderful man like Rabbi Sacks would probably have to shed his courtliness for a moment to properly call out Dawkins on this blatant, unacknowledged and suspiciously convenient self-contradiction. Ah well, as we knew already, being a Darwinist means never having to say "I was wrong." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/09/in_debate_brita_1064521.html
Lest anyone think Dawkins, the author of 'The Selfish Gene", did not actually expect junk DNA in that quote, here a few more quotes from Dawkins which people can look up for themselves'
Richard Dawkins The Selfish Gene, page 45 Oxford University Press, 1976 "A large fraction of DNA is never translated into protein... Biologists are racking their brains trying to think what useful task this apparently surplus DNA is doing. But from the point of view of the selfish genes themselves, there is no paradox. The true "purpose" of DNA is to survive, no more and no less. The simplest way to explain the surplus DNA is to suppose that it is a parasite, or at best a harmless but useless passenger." Richard Dawkins The Information Challenge Australian Skeptics, 1998 In a response to a creationist challenge regarding evolution producing information, Richard Dawkins wrote: " Can we measure the information capacity of that portion of the genome which is actually used? We can at least estimate it. In the case of the human genome it is about 2%?—?considerably less than the proportion of my hard disc that I have ever used since I bought it... The true information content is what’s left when the redundancy has been compressed out of the message, by the theoretical equivalent of Stuffit."
and again the 2009 reference
Richard Dawkins The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution, pages 332-333 Free Press, 2009 "What pseudogenes are useful for is embarrassing creationists... Leaving pseudogenes aside, it is a remarkable fact that the greater part (95 per cent in the case of humans) of the genome might as well not be there, for all the difference it makes. The neutral theory applies even to many of the genes in the remaining 5 per cent--the genes that are read and used.... None of this is to downgrade the all-important tip of the iceberg--the minority of mutations that are not neutral." http://notascientist.d512.com/worldview/biology/evolution/junk-dna/sources
i.e. Dawkins was wrong!bornagain
November 9, 2015
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Zachriel, I found the source of this quote: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/09/in_debate_brita_1064521.html reporting on BBC debate between Dawkins and Jonathan Sacks. The evolutionnews.org article states: Dawkins goes on: Leaving pseudogenes aside, it is a remarkable fact that the greater part (95 percent in the case of humans) of the genome might as well not be there, for all the difference it makes. ... evolutionnews.org then editorializes: Junk DNA is just what a Darwinist would expect, in other words. While your challenge is correct, Dawkins didn't appear to say what was attributed to him, the dent you make in the argument is miniscule.bFast
November 9, 2015
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Virgil said "The “theory” doesn’t predict anything beyond change when change is good and stasis when staying the same is good." Evolution is more of a philosophy that accommodates everything. It is philosophical dogma.Jack Jones
November 9, 2015
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bornagain: Dawkins, 2009: on “junkDNA” “Junk DNA is just what a Darwinist would expect,” Do you have a primary citation for this quote?Zachriel
November 9, 2015
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The "theory" doesn't predict anything beyond change when change is good and stasis when staying the same is good.Virgil Cain
November 9, 2015
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Sorry, but Larry is right on this one. The theory did not predict junk DNA, but when junk DNA was discovered, it was exactly what the theory would have predicted.Mung
November 9, 2015
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Larry Moran is pathetic. He deletes comments of the opposition that show him up but allows his minions who contribute nothing to the discussion, to attack people for not accepting Moran's claims as pearls of wisdom that must remain unchallenged.Jack Jones
November 9, 2015
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BA77 provides overwhelming evidence @ 8. Thank you sir.Barry Arrington
November 9, 2015
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Richard Dawkins on junk DNA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bjKH43pRB0 At 0:44, discussing the ENCODE results, he declares:
...Whereas we thought that only a minority of the genome was actually doing something - namely, the minority that actually codes for protein - now we find that actually the majority of it is doing something. What it's doing i calling into action the protein-coding genes.
Later (at 1:43) Dawkins says that this result "is exactly what a Darwinist would hope for." But the video clips show him referring to genes that are "vestigial relics," during talks he gave only two years earlier (in 2011). How many genes are we talking about? A lot, it seems: he refers to "massive, massive, massive quantities of evidence," in the genomes of "every species of creature that's ever been looked at." Finally, Dawkins exults that the vestigial genes belonging to various kinds of creatures yield the same family tree as the functional genes. Selective video editing, you say? Think again. The following quotes from Dawkins are taken from an ENV post (September 20, 2012) by David Klinghoffer, titled, "In Debate, Britain's Chief Rabbi Tweaks Richard Dawkins with the Myth of "Junk DNA." Here's Richard Dawkins in 2009:
It stretches even their creative ingenuity to make a convincing reason why an intelligent designer should have created a pseudogene -- a gene that does absolutely nothing and gives every appearance of being a superannuated version of a gene that used to do something -- unless he was deliberately setting out to fool us... Leaving pseudogenes aside, it is a remarkable fact that the greater part (95 percent in the case of humans) of the genome might as well not be there, for all the difference it makes.
And here he is in 2012, after ENCODE announced its results:
I have noticed that there are some creationists who are jumping on [the ENCODE results] because they think that's awkward for Darwinism. Quite the contrary it's exactly what a Darwinist would hope for, to find usefulness in the living world.... Whereas we thought that only a minority of the genome was doing something, namely that minority which actually codes for protein, and now we find that actually the majority of it is doing something. What it's doing is calling into action the protein-coding genes. So you can think of the protein-coding genes as being sort of the toolbox of subroutines which is pretty much common to all mammals -- mice and men have the same number, roughly speaking, of protein-coding genes and that's always been a bit of a blow to self-esteem of humanity. But the point is that that was just the subroutines that are called into being; the program that's calling them into action is the rest [of the genome] which had previously been written off as junk.
It seems to me that Darwinism is a highly malleable theory.vjtorley
November 9, 2015
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Nick @ 2: For your statements to be true, Jerry Coyne would have to not be a Darwinist. Jerry Coyne is a Darwinist. Therefore, your statements is false. It really is as simple as that.Barry Arrington
November 9, 2015
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NickMatzke_UD: "typically ‘DARWINISTS’ ASSUMED THAT MOST DNA WAS FUNCTIONAL." What a liar. Darwinists have always, since Darwin, predicted that randomness and evolution would produce a lot of dysfunctional crap. And Darwinists still continuously gleefully point out crappy inefficiency, vestigal uselessness, and junk dna. Point out any influential Darwinist who says that "most DNA is functional." Even in the present day, you cannot point to a single one, otherwise you would have quoted them saying it.mohammadnursyamsu
November 9, 2015
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Earth to NickMatzke, Both you and larry Moran constantly and consistently misrepresent ID. You also both oversell evolutionism. You have steadfastly refused to say how it was determined that gene duplications are genetic accidents, errors and mistakes. Also in what way is neutral theory non-Darwinian seeing that darwin talked about drift in "On the Origins of Species..."? Darwin just didn't see it as a creative force and rightly so.Virgil Cain
November 9, 2015
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as to Moran's claim,
"nobody predicted junk DNA, certainly not Darwinists."
Dawkins, 2009: on “junkDNA”
“Junk DNA is just what a Darwinist would expect,”
Dawkins, 2012: on non-junkDNA (after ENCODE)…
“"junk DNA" isn’t junk at all but is instead "exactly what a Darwinist would hope for," http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/09/in_debate_brita_1064521.html
Further notes:
Jonathan Wells on his book, The Myth of Junk DNA – yes, it is a Darwinist myth and he nails it as such - March 2011 Excerpt: Some people revise history by claiming that no mainstream biologists ever regarded non-protein-coding DNA as “junk.” This claim is easily disproved: Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel published an article in Nature in 1980 (284: 604-607) arguing that such DNA “is little better than junk,” and “it would be folly in such cases to hunt obsessively” for functions in it. Since then, Brown University biologist Kenneth R. Miller, Oxford University biologist Richard Dawkins, University of Chicago biologist Jerry A. Coyne, and University of California–Irvine biologist John C. Avise have all argued that most of our DNA is junk, and that this provides evidence for Darwinian evolution and against intelligent design. National Institutes of Health director Francis Collins argued similarly in his widely read 2006 book The Language of God. It is true that some biologists (such as Thomas Cavalier-Smith and Gabriel Dover) have long been skeptical of “junk DNA” claims, but probably a majority of biologists since 1980 have gone along with the myth. The revisionists are misinformed (or misinforming). https://uncommondescent.com/junk-dna/jonathan-wells-on-his-book-the-myth-of-junk-dna-yes-it-is-a-darwinist-myth-and-he-nails-it-as-such/#more-18154 Susumu Ohno, 1972, Ford Doolittle, 1980, Francis Crick & Leslie Orgel, 1980, Carl Sagan, 1992 Kenneth Miller, 1994 Sydney Brenner, 1998 Francis Collins, 2006 Michael Shermer, 2006 PZ Myers, 2008 Richard Dawkins, 1979, 1998, 2009 John Avise, 2010 Dan Graur et al, 2012, 2013 Don Prothero, 2013 T. Ryan Gregory, & Alexander Palazzo, 2014 http://notascientist.d512.com/worldview/biology/evolution/junk-dna/
A Short History Of The Junk DNA Argument Of Darwinists
Haldane's Dilemma Excerpt: Haldane was the first to recognize there was a cost to selection which limited what it realistically could be expected to do. He did not fully realize that his thinking would create major problems for evolutionary theory. He calculated that in man it would take 6 million years to fix just 1,000 mutations (assuming 20 years per generation).,,, Man and chimp differ by at least 150 million nucleotides representing at least 40 million hypothetical mutations (Britten, 2002). So if man evolved from a chimp-like creature, then during that process there were at least 20 million mutations fixed within the human lineage (40 million divided by 2), yet natural selection could only have selected for 1,000 of those. All the rest would have had to been fixed by random drift - creating millions of nearly-neutral deleterious mutations. This would not just have made us inferior to our chimp-like ancestors - it surely would have killed us. Since Haldane's dilemma there have been a number of efforts to sweep the problem under the rug, but the problem is still exactly the same. ReMine (1993, 2005) has extensively reviewed the problem, and has analyzed it using an entirely different mathematical formulation - but has obtained identical results. John Sanford PhD. - "Genetic Entropy and The Mystery of the Genome" - pg. 159-160 Kimura's Quandary Excerpt: Kimura realized that Haldane was correct,,, He developed his neutral theory in response to this overwhelming evolutionary problem. Paradoxically, his theory led him to believe that most mutations are unselectable, and therefore,,, most 'evolution' must be independent of selection! Because he was totally committed to the primary axiom (neo-Darwinism), Kimura apparently never considered his cost arguments could most rationally be used to argue against the Axiom's (neo-Darwinism's) very validity. John Sanford PhD. - "Genetic Entropy and The Mystery of the Genome" - pg. 161 - 162 Kimura (1968) developed the idea of “Neutral Evolution”. If “Haldane’s Dilemma” is correct, the majority of DNA must be non-functional. - Sanford
(i.e. neutral theory is actually the result of a theoretical failure of Darwinism within mathematics!) A graph featuring 'Kimura's Distribution' being ‘properly used’ is shown in the following video:
Evolution vs Genetic Entropy – Andy McIntosh – video – 59:27 minute mark https://youtu.be/-GLJE4FbHnk?t=3567
At the 2:45 minute mark of the following video, the mathematical roots of the junk DNA argument, that is still used by many Darwinists today, can be traced through Haldane, Kimura, and Ohno's work in the late 1950’s, 60’s through the early 70’s:
What Is The Genome? It's Not Junk! - Dr. Robert Carter - video - (Notes in video description) http://www.metacafe.com/w/8905583 Carter: Why Evolutionists Need Junk DNA - Robert W. Carter - 2009 Excerpt: Junk DNA is not just a label that was tacked on to some DNA that seemed to have no function, but it is something that is required by evolutionary theory. Mathematically, there is too much variation, too much DNA to mutate, and too few generations in which to get it all done. This was the essence of Haldane's work. Without junk DNA, evolutionary theory cannot currently explain how everything works mathematically. Think about it; in the evolutionary model there have only been 3-6 million years since humans and chimps diverged. With average human generation times of 20-30 years, this gives them only 100,000 to 300,000 generations to fix the millions of mutations that separate humans and chimps. This includes at least 35 million single letter differences, over 90 million base pairs of non-shared DNA, nearly 700 extra genes in humans (about 6% not shared with chimpanzees), and tens of thousands of chromosomal rearrangements. Also, the chimp genome is about 13% larger than that of humans, but mostly due to the heterochromatin that caps the chromosome telomeres. All this has to happen in a very short amount of evolutionary time. They don't have enough time, even after discounting the functionality of over 95% of the genome--but their position becomes grave if junk DNA turns out to be functional. Every new function found for junk DNA makes the evolutionists' case that much more difficult. Robert W. Carter - biologist
Susumu Ohno, a leader in the field of genetics and evolutionary biology, explained in 1972 in an early study of non-coding DNA that, "they are the remains of nature's experiments which failed. The earth is strewn with fossil remains of extinct species; is it a wonder that our genome too is filled with the remains of extinct genes?"
“The chance of acquiring a new function by unrestricted accumulation of mutations, however, should be as small as that of an isolated population emerging triumphant as a new species. Degeneracy is the more likely fate. The creation of every new gene must have been accompanied by many other redundant copies joining the ranks of silent DNA base sequences, and these silent DNA base sequence may now be serving the useful but negative function of spacing those which have succeeded. Triumphs as well as failures of nature’s past experiments appear to be contained in our genome.” [From, “So much ‘junk’ DNA in our Genome”, Susumu Ohno, 1972]
Sternberg traces how the junk DNA argument developed through the mid 1970’s to the early 80’s and beyond in the following article:
How The Junk DNA Hypothesis Has Changed Since 1980 - Richard Sternberg - October 8, 2009 Excerpt: Two papers appeared back to back in the journal Nature in 1980: "Selfish Genes, the Phenotype Paradigm and Genome Evolution" by W. Ford Doolittle and Carmen Sapienza and "Selfish DNA: The Ultimate Parasite" by Leslie Orgel and Francis Crick. These laid the framework for thinking about nonprotein-coding regions of chromosomes, judging from how they are cited. What these authors effectively did was advance Dawkins's 1976 selfish gene idea in such a way that all the genomic DNA evidence available up to that time could be accounted for by a plausible scenario. The thesis presented in both articles is that the only specific function of the vast bulk of "nonspecific" sequences, especially repetitive elements such as transposons, is to replicate themselves -- this is the consequence of natural selection operating within genomes, beneath the radar of the cell. These junk sequences, it was postulated, can duplicate and disperse throughout chromosomes because they have little or no effect on the phenotype, save for the occasional mutation that results from their mobility. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/how_the_junk_dna_hypothesis_ha026421.html Biologists are racking their brains trying to think what useful task this apparently surplus DNA is doing. But from the point of view of the selfish genes themselves, there is no paradox. The true “purpose” of DNA is to survive, no more and no less. The simplest way to explain the surplus DNA is to suppose that it is a parasite, or at best a harmless but useless passenger, hitching a ride in the survival machines created by the other DNA. …. “creationists…might spend some earnest time speculating on why the Creator should bother to litter genomes with untranslated pseudogenes and junk tandem repeat DNA.” Richard Dawkins - Selfish Gene (mid 1970’s) Selfish DNA: the ultimate parasite. Orgel LE, Crick FH. - 1980 The DNA of higher organisms usually falls into two classes, one specific and the other comparatively nonspecific. It seems plausible that most of the latter originates by the spreading of sequences which had little or no effect on the phenotype. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7366731
Dr. Wells also gives some historical background:
Why All the Fuss Over Some Junk? - Jonathan Wells - September 25, 2012 Excerpt: Some historical context might help. After James Watson and Francis Crick discovered the molecular structure of DNA in 1953, Crick announced that they had found "the secret of life," a popular formulation of which became "DNA makes RNA makes protein makes us." But biologists discovered that about 98% of our DNA does not code for protein, and in 1972 Susumu Ohno and David Comings independently used the term "junk" to refer to non-protein-coding DNA (though neither man excluded the possibility that some of it might turn out to be functional). Why didn't biologists simply call non-protein-coding sequences "DNA of unknown function" rather than "junk DNA?" For some, it was because "junk DNA" seemed more suited to the defense of Darwinism and survival of the fittest. In 1976, Richard Dawkins wrote in The Selfish Gene that "the true 'purpose' of DNA is to survive, no more and no less. The simplest way to explain the surplus [i.e., non-protein-coding] DNA is to suppose that it is a parasite, or at best a harmless but useless passenger, hitching a ride in the survival machines created by the other DNA." In 1980, W. Ford Doolittle and Carmen Sapienza wrote in Nature (284:601) that many organisms contain "DNAs whose only 'function' is survival within genomes," and that "the search for other explanations may prove, if not intellectually sterile, ultimately futile." In the same issue of Nature (284:604), Leslie Orgel and Francis Crick wrote that "much DNA in higher organisms is little better than junk," and its accumulation in the course of evolution "can be compared to the spread of a not-too-harmful parasite within its host." Since it is unlikely that such DNA has a function, Orgel and Crick concluded, "it would be folly in such cases to hunt obsessively for one." Two biologists then wrote to Nature (285:617,618) expressing their disagreement. Thomas Cavalier-Smith considered it "premature" to dismiss non-protein-coding DNA as junk, and Gabriel Dover wrote that "we should not abandon all hope of arriving at an understanding of the manner in which some sequences might affect the biology of organisms in completely novel and somewhat unconventional ways." Cavalier-Smith and Dover were not criticizing evolutionary theory; they were merely questioning the claim that non-protein-coding DNA is non-functional. After the rise of intelligent design (ID) in the 1990s, "junk DNA" became a favorite weapon against ID in the hands of some Darwinists, including Richard Dawkins and the four bloggers mentioned above. According to ID, it is possible to infer from evidence in nature that some features of the world, including some features of living things, are explained better by an intelligent cause than by unguided natural processes. The Darwinists' argument was that an intelligent designer would not have filled our genomes with so much junk, but that it could have accumulated as an accidental by-product of unguided evolution. In 2004, Dawkins wrote in A Devil's Chaplain that much of our genome "consists of multiple copies of junk, 'tandem repeats,' and other nonsense which may be useful for forensic detectives but which doesn't seem to be used in the body itself." Dawkins suggested that creationists (among whom he included ID advocates) "might spend some earnest time speculating on why the Creator should bother to litter genomes with untranslated pseudogenes and junk tandem repeat DNA." Dawkins continued to rely on junk DNA in his 2009 book The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution. "It is a remarkable fact," he wrote, "that the greater part (95 per cent in the case of humans) of the genome might as well not be there, for all the difference it makes." In particular, pseudogenes "are genes that once did something useful but have now been sidelined and are never transcribed or translated." Dawkins concluded: "What pseudogenes are useful for is embarrassing creationists. It stretches even their creative ingenuity to make up a convincing reason why an intelligent designer should have created a pseudogene... unless he was deliberately setting out to fool us." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/09/why_all_the_fus_1064721.html
In 1994, the authoritative textbook, Molecular Biology of the Cell, co-authored by National Academy of Sciences president Bruce Alberts, suggested (incorrectly!) that introns are "largely genetic 'junk'": Unlike the sequence of an exon, the exact nucleotide sequence of an intron seems to be unimportant. Thus introns have accumulated mutations rapidly during evolution, and it is often possible to alter most of an intron’s nucleotide sequence without greatly affecting gene function. This has led to the suggestion that intron sequences have no function at all and are largely genetic “junk”. Soon thereafter, the 1995 edition of Voet & Voet's Biochemistry textbook explained that "a possibility that must be seriously entertained is that much repetitive DNA serves no useful purpose whatever for its host. Rather, it is selfish or junk DNA, a molecular parasite that, over many generations, has disseminated itself throughout the genome..."
Will Darwinists try to Rewrite the History of Junk-DNA? Excerpt: In 1996, leading origin of life theorist Christian de Duve wrote: "The simplest way to explain the surplus DNA is to suppose that it is a parasite or at best a harmless but useless passenger, hitching a ride in the survival machines created by the other DNA." (Richard Dawkins makes similar pronouncements that DNA is junk in an article after 1998) per ENV
Another leading biologist, Sydney Brenner argued in a biology journal in 1998 that:
"The excess DNA in our genomes is junk, and it is there because it is harmless, as well as being useless, and because the molecular processes generating extra DNA outpace those getting rid of it."
A decade before ENCODE, John Mattick said the junk DNA argument "may well go down as one of the biggest mistakes in the history of molecular biology.”
“I think this will come to be a classic story of orthodoxy derailing objective analysis of the facts, in this case for a quarter of a century,” Mattick says. “The failure to recognize the full implications of this—particularly the possibility that the intervening noncoding sequences may be transmitting parallel information in the form of RNA molecules—may well go down as one of the biggest mistakes in the history of molecular biology.” (John S. Mattick Scientific American (November, 2003)
bornagain
November 9, 2015
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BA, It seems that the rhetorical, dismissive talking points go and come in a cycle of waves. Just now, I noted to DK as follows: _______ >> . . . do you seriously expect us to believe something as close to hand as a Wiki article is not understood as to fundamental claims from Darwin forward? In effect:
chance, non-foresighted, blind watchmaker variation [someone once posted 47 engines of variation, and this includes neutral drifting etc] [= CV] + differential reproductive success of varieties in environments [= DRS, aka "natural selection"] + other filtering out of variations [= OF] --> extinction of less successful varieties [= XLSV] --> incremental descent with modification [= IDWM] --> similarly incremental branching tree evolution [= BTE] --> tree of life pattern of life forms [= TOL]
Or, CV + DRS + OF --> XLSV --> IDWM --> BTE --> TOL So summed up it is soon evident that the vaunted natural selection is in fact only an after the fact description of the LOSS of varieties and associated information. It is therefore not a SOURCE of information, it is a lossy filter. The only actually posited source is chance variation, which is simply not up to the job of accounting for the FSCO/I required to give dozens of main body plans requirinf 10 - 100+ mn bits of information here on earth in a window of 600 MY or less. In the case of humans vs chimps, on the 98% similarity claim, one needs to account for 60 mn bases or 120 mn bits of crucially diverse information in 6 - 10 mn years with pop bases probably of order 10,000 and generation times 5 - 20 years. Worse, this does not address the FSCO/I in the root of the tree, in which context existing reproduction is not to be assumed. Indeed, the von Neumann kinematic self replicator coded info using complex system has to be accounted for. VC is right to highlight that an actual, empirically warranted comprehensive macro level theory of body plan origin by evolution that -- without imposition of ideological a priori evolutionary materialism -- is testable and tested, does not exist. Johnson's remark is apt:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence.
[--> notice, the power of an undisclosed, question-begging, controlling assumption . . . often put up as if it were a mere reasonable methodological constraint; emphasis added. Let us note how Rational Wiki, so-called, presents it:
"Methodological naturalism is the label for the required assumption of philosophical naturalism when working with the scientific method. Methodological naturalists limit their scientific research to the study of natural causes, because any attempts to define causal relationships with the supernatural are never fruitful, and result in the creation of scientific "dead ends" and God of the gaps-type hypotheses."
Of course, this ideological imposition on science that subverts it from freely seeking the empirically, observationally anchored truth about our world pivots on the deception of side-stepping the obvious fact since Plato in The Laws Bk X, that there is a second, readily empirically testable and observable alternative to "natural vs [the suspect] supernatural." Namely, blind chance and/or mechanical necessity [= the natural] vs the ART-ificial, the latter acting by evident intelligently directed configuration. [Cf Plantinga's reply here and here.] And as for the god of the gaps canard, the issue is, inference to best explanation across competing live option candidates. If chance and necessity is a candidate, so is intelligence acting by art through design. And if the latter is twisted into a caricature god of the gaps strawman, then locked out, huge questions are being oh so conveniently begged.]
That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
It is time for a serious re-think.>> _________ KFkairosfocus
November 9, 2015
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Is Jerry Coyne a darwinist? In Biology online he said
Still, these advances amount to refinements of Darwinism rather than its Kuhnian overthrow. Evolutionary biology hasn’t suffered the equivalent of quantum mechanics. But some biologists, chafing in their Darwinian straitjacket, periodically announce new worldviews that, they claim, will overturn our view of evolution, or at least force its drastic revision. During my career I have heard this said about punctuated equilibrium, molecular drive, the idea of symbiosis as an evolutionary force, evo-devo, and the notion that evolution is driven by the self-organization of molecules. Some of these ideas are worthwhile, others simply silly; but none do more than add a room or two to the Darwinian manse. Often declared dead, Darwinism still refuses to lie down. So by all means let’s retain the term. It is less of a jawbreaker than “modern evolutionary biology,” and has not, as was feared, misled people into thinking that our field has remained static since 1859. What better honorific than “Darwinism” to fête the greatest biologist in history?
Andre
November 8, 2015
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Then in why evolution is True, Professor Emeritus Jerry Coyne says
When a trait is no longer used, or becomes reduced, the genes that make it don’t instantly disappear from the genome: evolution stops their action by inactivating them, not snipping them out of the DNA. From this we can make a prediction. We expect to find, in the genomes of many species, silenced, or ‘dead,’ genes: genes that once were useful but are no longer intact or expressed. In other words, there should be vestigial genes…Our genome—and that of other species—are truly well populated graveyards of dead genes.
Andre
November 8, 2015
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NM_UD, "NEUTRAL THEORY IS NON-DARWINIAN" Wrong! How many times to I have to explain to yous guys that neutral theory answers the question of what happens to mutations that are selectively neutral (or near neutral in the case of near neutral theory). Now it is true that most mutations are selectively neutral, but all mutations must submit to the test of Darwinian selection, therefore neutral theory is a subset of neo-Darwinian theory. To pretend otherwise is just semantics. We do understand, you and yours try to pretend that we don't. NM_UD, "“Junk DNA” only started to become a popular idea because of reasons like ..." You are correct, and this is known by me, and surely by BA. However, when the junk theory became known, it began to sail rather quickly. It did so because it was a natural prediction of neo-Darwinan theory. The fact that it was not predicted by the theorists earlier only shows that their understanding of the theory lacked richness, not that the theory didn't predict "junk". Ie, the theory properly predicted "junk" prior to the theorists figuring out that it did so. NM_UD, "You, like most ID/creationists, have your own special definition of “Darwinist”, which is, basically, anyone you don’t like, or anyone who is against ID." No! No! We use the term Darwinist, or neo-Darwinist to indicate all those whose theory falls within the scope of RM+NS. (Where Random is read as random with respect to fitness, or as Dr. MacNeill said, "non-foresighted".) The term properly extends to any mechanism which ostensibly developed via RM+NS.bFast
November 8, 2015
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Nick_Matzke Lets test your claim
You, like most ID/creationists, have your own special definition of “Darwinist”, which is, basically, anyone you don’t like, or anyone who is against ID. Your misunderstanding of the definition of “Darwinist”, and the epic mistakes this leads to (you getting the position of “Darwinists” on Junk DNA exactly backwards) is what Larry is complaining about. Why is it so hard for you to get it?
Is Richard Dawkins a Darwinist? Based on the article I linked he most certainly is. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2008/feb/09/darwin.dawkins1 So if he is a Darwinist and he said;
“It stretches even their creative ingenuity to make a convincing reason why an intelligent designer should have created a pseudogene — a gene that does absolutely nothing and gives every appearance of being a superannuated version of a gene that used to do something — unless he was deliberately setting out to fool us… Leaving pseudogenes aside, it is a remarkable fact that the greater part (95 percent in the case of humans) of the genome might as well not be there, for all the difference it makes.”
Then your opening statmenet is obviously false
What you aren’t getting is that, in the way the term ‘Darwinists’ was traditionally used, typically ‘DARWINISTS’ ASSUMED THAT MOST DNA WAS FUNCTIONAL. Basically they thought natural selection regulated everything, and if something wasn’t performing a useful function, it would be eliminated by natural selection. This described a common position up until the 1960s.
Why? Because that comment was made by Dawkins in 2009. So clearly you are confused.Andre
November 8, 2015
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Barry, What you aren't getting is that, in the way the term 'Darwinists' was traditionally used, typically 'DARWINISTS' ASSUMED THAT MOST DNA WAS FUNCTIONAL. Basically they thought natural selection regulated everything, and if something wasn't performing a useful function, it would be eliminated by natural selection. This described a common position up until the 1960s. "Junk DNA" only started to become a popular idea because of reasons like (a) data started coming in indicating that genomes were way bigger than they had to be to specify genes and regulation, (b) genome sizes were ridiculously variable between similar organisms, and (c) the development of neutral theory, which explained how "junk" could accumulate without causing major harm to organisms. NEUTRAL THEORY IS NON-DARWINIAN. NEUTRAL THEORY IS ALSO NOW EXTREMELY WELL ACCEPTED IN EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY. SO ITS BIZARRE FOR YOU TO GO AROUND SAYING "DARWINISTS" PREDICTED JUNK DNA. You, like most ID/creationists, have your own special definition of "Darwinist", which is, basically, anyone you don't like, or anyone who is against ID. Your misunderstanding of the definition of "Darwinist", and the epic mistakes this leads to (you getting the position of "Darwinists" on Junk DNA exactly backwards) is what Larry is complaining about. Why is it so hard for you to get it?NickMatzke_UD
November 8, 2015
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Barry To hop onto the Junk DNA Band Wagon here is high priest Dawkins....
"It stretches even their creative ingenuity to make a convincing reason why an intelligent designer should have created a pseudogene -- a gene that does absolutely nothing and gives every appearance of being a superannuated version of a gene that used to do something -- unless he was deliberately setting out to fool us... Leaving pseudogenes aside, it is a remarkable fact that the greater part (95 percent in the case of humans) of the genome might as well not be there, for all the difference it makes."
Andre
November 8, 2015
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