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Larry Moran needs to do some more reading

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I had intended to write a post on whales as products of Intelligent Design. But the whales will have to wait. In the space of just three hours, Professor Larry Moran has put up two remarkably silly posts. And in both cases, Professor Moran could have spared himself the embarrassment if he had done just a little more reading.

The first post, titled, Can theology produce true knowledge?, critiques Dr. Denis Alexander’s claim that there are other, equally valid, ways of knowing besides science. Professor Moran thinks this is flawed on three counts: first, natural theology is question-begging because “you have to assume the existence of a creator god before you would even think of interpreting the natural world as the produce of his creative mind”; second, “faith cannot be falsified as easily as scientific hypotheses and models,” since alleged falsifications can easily be rationalized away by reinterpreting the Bible in a metaphorical sense, and in any case, “much of what’s written in the Bible has been falsified” (especially with regard to human origins); and thirdly, religious experience does not count as a legitimate way of knowing, owing to the human capacity for self-delusion: you have to “prove to an outside observer that you are not deluded,” and the only way to do that is to “provide evidence that your god is real and that’s the scientific way of knowing.” Professor Moran concludes that Dr. Alexander has failed to make a case for “the ability of theology to produce true knowledge.” After this devastating triple refutation, Moran gleefully chortles:

Strike three.

You’re out, Dr. Alexander. This is a baseball analogy… You have lost your wicket. You are dismissed.

Perhaps someone should tell Professor Moran that there are no wickets in the game of baseball, and that the image which he has attached to the end of his post is not one of a batter being struck out in the game of baseball, but of a batsman being bowled out in the game of cricket.

This is what a strikeout looks like, Professor Moran:

(In the photo above, taken in 2006, Cincinnati Reds outfielder Adam Dunn strikes out swinging to Atlanta Braves pitcher John Smoltz. Braves’ catcher Brian McCann catches the pitch behind the plate. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.)

Why Professor Moran’s three strikes fail miserably

Let’s return to Professor Moran’s “three strikes” against Dr. Denis Alexander. What about Moran’s first strike: his claim that natural theology is question-begging, because it begins with the assumption that God exists? That would be news to St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274), the foremost theologian of the Catholic Church, who begins his article, Whether God exists? (Summa Theologica I, q.2, art.3) by marshaling two arguments against God’s existence – the argument from evil and Occam’s razor – before proceeding to argue that “the existence of God can be proved in five ways.” Don’t believe me? Go on, have a look:

Objection 1. It seems that God does not exist; because if one of two contraries be infinite, the other would be altogether destroyed. But the word “God” means that He is infinite goodness. If, therefore, God existed, there would be no evil discoverable; but there is evil in the world. Therefore God does not exist.

Objection 2. Further, it is superfluous to suppose that what can be accounted for by a few principles has been produced by many. But it seems that everything we see in the world can be accounted for by other principles, supposing God did not exist. For all natural things can be reduced to one principle which is nature; and all voluntary things can be reduced to one principle which is human reason, or will. Therefore there is no need to suppose God’s existence.

You can’t get a fairer statement of the case for atheism than that.

Now, I’m sure Professor Moran will respond that he doesn’t find Aquinas’ Five Ways convincing – although he really should peruse Ed Feser’s short and highly readable book, Aquinas: A Beginner’s Guide (Oneworld Publications, paperback, 2009) before venturing an opinion on the subject. Be that as it may, Moran is manifestly wrong in asserting that natural theology assumes the existence of God. It doesn’t: Aquinas’ Five Ways, for instance, merely assume the existence of change, causation, contingent states of affairs, grades of perfection, and things that tend to produce certain characteristic effects. (And in case Moran is interested, there are cogent contemporary arguments for God’s existence – see here, here and here.)

I think any fair-minded umpire would rule against Moran’s strike one, calling it a foul instead.

What of Moran’s second strike: that faith isn’t falsifiable in the same way as science is, because statements in the Bible which are contradicted by scientific discoveries can always be reinterpreted metaphorically? Wrong on two counts. First, Moran is assuming that Christianity is tied to the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy. It isn’t. You could believe in all of the doctrines of the Apostles’ Creed – and the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds as well, which are much more explicit about the Trinity – without believing in the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy. That was C.S. Lewis’s position, for instance.

What, then, is Christianity tied to? The most logical way to define Christianity is to look at the credal statements drawn up by the early Christians themselves – notably, the Apostles’ Creed, which, in its Old Roman form, is probably the oldest known statement of the Christian faith, dating back to before 200 A.D.. What the creed affirms is the following: that God created the universe (“heaven and earth”); that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, named Mary; that He was crucified under Pontius Pilate, rose again on the third day, and ascended to be with His Heavenly Father; that He will return to judge the living and the dead; that in addition to the Father and the Son, there is a Holy Spirit; that there is a communion of saints in Heaven as well as a holy catholic church on earth; that sins can be forgiven; and that there will one day be a resurrection of the dead to everlasting life. Some of these statements are obviously falsifiable: if it turned out, for instance, that the universe had no beginning (and hence no Creator), or that the doctrine of the Virgin birth was a second-century addition to the Christian faith; or that no individual named Jesus of Nazareth, professing to be a king, was ever crucified under Pontius Pilate; or that such an individual was crucified, but his body was dug up next week by archaeologists in Palestine, then it would be curtains for Christianity. The early Christian Fathers thought likewise, which is why they went to such lengths to refute attacks on their faith by skeptics. And herein lies Moran’s second error: when he suggests that Christianity is immune to falsification because its teachings can always be reinterpreted metaphorically, he never asks himself the vital question: reinterpreted by whom? The Bible itself never asks us to believe in God, even if He didn’t create the universe; nor does it ask us to believe in Jesus Christ, even if He didn’t rise from the grave. The notion that religious faith ought to be unfalsifiable is a theological novelty, which seems to have arisen in Christian circles a mere 220 years ago, in the writings of Friedrich Schleiermacher (1768-1834), who was heavily influenced by the philosopher Spinoza’s naturalistic critique of miracles. However, Schleiermacher’s position is a minority view among Christians to this day, and to his credit, Dr. Denis Alexander (the molecular biologist who is the object of Moran’s scorn) roundly rejects such a compromise view: for him, the discovery of Jesus’ bones in Palestine would falsify Christianity.

The Arnolfini Portrait, by Jan van Eyck (c. 1390-1441). Date: 1434. National Gallery, London. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.

So much for Professor Moran’s first two strikes. What of his third strike: his claim that you can’t know anything from religious experience unless you can “prove to an outside observer that you are not deluded”? What Moran’s argument implicitly assumes is that you can’t know something is true unless you can prove it to an unbiased outsider. But knowing and proving are very different things, and in the course of everyday life, there are many things that we can properly claim to know, even though we cannot prove them. We do not (and should not) need a scientist to tell us that someone whom we know very well is trustworthy, or that someone in our family loves us. These judgments that we make about particular individuals are intuitive rather than scientific: often we may be quite certain of them, even though we are unable to articulate the grounds for our certainty. Professor Moran might respond that our intuitive judgments about others are nevertheless empirically testable: for instance, the behavior of your spouse over the course of time can lend strong evidential support to the hypothesis that s/he loves you. But even if statements like “My spouse loves me” are testable, we typically come to believe in their truth long before we have subjected them to systematic testing. And we are right to do so.

Professor Moran could argue that at least an unbiased outsider can be satisfied by the evidence that my spouse exists: he can see her and talk to her, for instance. However, the situation is quite different when it comes to God: many people (including people who would like to believe in God) have never had an experience of Him, and therefore doubt or deny His existence. But what this argument illicitly assumes is that religious experience is uniformly accessible to everyone. Perhaps it isn’t; maybe it requires a certain aptitude on the part of the recipient. Just as some otherwise normal people are quite tone-deaf, it may be the case that some people are (through no particular fault of their own) deaf to the “still, small voice of God.” I can quite sympathize; in my entire life, I’ve had only a couple of experiences that I might describe as a sense of the presence of God, and I certainly haven’t heard any voices or seen any visions. But if other people are convinced that they have, then who am I to say that they have no right to be sure they’ve seen God until I can see what they claim to have seen? That would be extremely presumptuous of me. It could be that I’m just religiously tone-deaf – or very hard of hearing. Should I be wary of visionaries’ claims? Certainly – especially when different people claim to see different things. But that has no bearing on the question of whether these people’s experiences count as a valid source of knowledge – at least for them.

What’s wrong with Moran’s claim that science is the only way of knowing?

In his post, Can theology produce true knowledge?, Professor Moran concludes that “for the time being, science is the only proven way to arrive at true knowledge.” If he had taken the trouble to read Associate Professor Edward Feser’s short article in Public Discourse, Blinded by Scientism (March 9, 2010), he would have seen why this statement is simply ridiculous. Here’s how Feser (an ex-atheist) demolishes the view that all real knowledge is scientific knowledge (scientism):

Despite its adherents’ pose of rationality, scientism has a serious problem: it is either self-refuting or trivial. Take the first horn of this dilemma. The claim that scientism is true is not itself a scientific claim, not something that can be established using scientific methods. Indeed, that science is even a rational form of inquiry (let alone the only rational form of inquiry) is not something that can be established scientifically. For scientific inquiry itself rests on a number of philosophical assumptions: that there is an objective world external to the minds of scientists; that this world is governed by causal regularities; that the human intellect can uncover and accurately describe these regularities; and so forth. Since science presupposes these things, it cannot attempt to justify them without arguing in a circle. And if it cannot even establish that it is a reliable form of inquiry, it can hardly establish that it is the only reliable form. Both tasks would require “getting outside” science altogether and discovering from that extra-scientific vantage point that science conveys an accurate picture of reality—and in the case of scientism, that only science does so.

The rational investigation of the philosophical presuppositions of science has, naturally, traditionally been regarded as the province of philosophy. Nor is it these presuppositions alone that philosophy examines. There is also the question of how to interpret what science tells us about the world. For example, is the world fundamentally comprised of substances or events? What is it to be a “cause”? Is there only one kind? (Aristotle held that there are at least four.) What is the nature of the universals referred to in scientific laws — concepts like quark, electron, atom, and so on — and indeed in language in general? Do they exist over and above the particular things that instantiate them? Scientific findings can shed light on such metaphysical questions, but can never fully answer them. Yet if science must depend upon philosophy both to justify its presuppositions and to interpret its results, the falsity of scientism seems doubly assured. As the conservative philosopher John Kekes (himself a confirmed secularist like Derbyshire and MacDonald) concludes: “Hence philosophy, and not science, is a stronger candidate for being the very paradigm of rationality.”

Here we come to the second horn of the dilemma facing scientism. Its advocate may now insist: if philosophy has this status, it must really be a part of science, since (he continues to maintain, digging in his heels) all rational inquiry is scientific inquiry. The trouble now is that scientism becomes completely trivial, arbitrarily redefining “science” so that it includes anything that could be put forward as evidence against it. Worse, it makes scientism consistent with views that are supposed to be incompatible with it. For example, a line of thought deriving from Aristotle and developed with great sophistication by Thomas Aquinas holds that when we work out what it is for one thing to be the cause of another, we are inexorably led to the existence of an Uncaused Cause outside time and space which continually sustains the causal regularities studied by science, and apart from which they could not in principle exist even for a moment.

If “scientism” is defined so broadly that it includes (at least in principle) philosophical theology of this kind, then the view becomes completely vacuous. For the whole point of scientism — or so it would seem given the rhetoric of its loudest adherents — was supposed to be to provide a weapon by which fields of inquiry like theology might be dismissed as inherently unscientific and irrational.

(The bolding in the above passage is mine – VJT.)

Of course, it might turn out that biochemist Larry Moran has a crushing rejoinder to Edward Feser, who is a professional philosopher. And for that matter, pigs might fly. But I certainly wouldn’t bet on either proposition.

Why Moran’s critique of the fine-tuning argument fails

Professor Moran’s second silly post of February 8 is titled, Intelligent Design Creationism and the fine-tuning argument. Moran thinks that biochemist Michael Denton (who is a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture) is “not a trustworthy source of information” when it comes to the fine-tuning argument. So who does he turn to instead? The late physicist Victor Stenger, author of God the Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist. Moran writes:

I have to trust an authority on this one. I choose to trust physicist Igor (sic) Stenger who has actually done an experiment to test the hypothesis of fine tuning.

I conclude that fine tuning is not a valid argument for the existence of gods.

Evidently Professor Moran has not read (or heard of) the devastating refutation of Victor Stenger’s “take-down” of the fine-tuning argument by cosmologist Dr. Luke Barnes, in a 2011 ARXIV paper titled, The Fine-Tuning of the Universe for Intelligent Life. For the benefit of readers who dislike mathematics, I’ve written a non-technical overview of Dr. Barnes’ paper, titled, Is fine-tuning a fallacy? (January 5, 2012). In his paper, Dr. Barnes takes care to avoid drawing any metaphysical conclusions from the fact of fine-tuning. He has no religious axe to grind. His main concern is simply to establish that the fine-tuning of the universe is real, contrary to the claims of Professor Stenger, who asserts that all of the alleged examples of fine-tuning in our universe can be explained without the need for a multiverse.

Not only has Professor Moran not heard of Dr. Luke Barnes, but he hasn’t even picked the best critique of the fine-tuning argument for the existence of God, which was made by physicist Dr. Sean Carroll in a debate with Dr. William Lane Craig. I’ve responded to Dr. Carroll in a post titled, Debunking the debunker: How Sean Carroll gets the fine-tuning argument wrong.

I might add that Professor Stenger’s denial of the very existence of fine-tuning puts him at odds with most experts in the field. Here is a list of prominent scientists (compiled by Dr. Barnes) who acknowledge the reality of fine-tuning:

Barrow, Carr, Carter, Davies, Hawkins,
Deutsch, Ellis, Greene, Guth, Harrison,
Hawking, Linde, Page, Penrose,
Polkinghorne, Rees, Sandage, Smolin,
Susskind, Tegmark, Tipler, Vilenkin,
Weinberg, Wheeler, Wilczek

Commenting on these scientists’ religious perspectives, Dr. Barnes remarks: “The list is a roughly equal mix of theist, non-theist and unknown.”

Now, if Professor Moran thinks that Victor Stenger is a more trustworthy source than these eminent scientists, then he is entitled to his opinion; however, he cannot credibly claim to be listening to what the experts have to say.

Dr. Barnes’ conclusions at the end of his paper, The Fine-Tuning of the Universe for Intelligent Life, are well worth quoting:

We conclude that the universe is fine-tuned for the existence of life. Of all the ways that the laws of nature, constants of physics and initial conditions of the universe could have been, only a very small subset permits the existence of intelligent life. (p. 62)

It is not true that fine-tuning must eventually yield to the relentless march of science. Fine-tuning is not a typical scientific problem, that is, a phenomenon in our universe that cannot be explained by our current understanding of physical laws. It is not a gap. Rather, we are concerned with the physical laws themselves. In particular, the anthropic coincidences are not like, say, the coincidence between inertial mass and gravitational mass in Newtonian gravity, which is a coincidence between two seemingly independent physical quantities. Anthropic coincidences, on the other hand, involve a happy consonance between a physical quantity and the requirements of complex, embodied intelligent life. The anthropic coincidences are so arresting because we are accustomed to thinking of physical laws and initial conditions as being unconcerned with how things turn out. Physical laws are material and efficient causes, not final causes. There is, then, no reason to think that future progress in physics will render a life-permitting universe inevitable. When physics is finished, when the equation is written on the blackboard and fundamental physics has gone as deep as it can go, fine-tuning may remain, basic and irreducible. (p. 63)

Perhaps the most optimistic scenario is that we will eventually discover a simple, beautiful physical principle from which we can derive a unique physical theory, whose unique solution describes the universe as we know it, including the standard model, quantum gravity, and (dare we hope) the initial conditions of cosmology. While this has been the dream of physicists for centuries, there is not the slightest bit of evidence that this idea is true. It is almost certainly not true of our best hope for a theory of quantum gravity, string theory, which has “anthropic principle written all over it” (Schellekens, 2008). The beauty of its principles has not saved us from the complexity and contingency of the solutions to its equations. Beauty and simplicity are not necessity. (p.63)

At the end of his post, Professor Moran asks:

Can Intelligent Design Creationists refute the views of Stenger and other physicists or have they just convinced themselves that what they say to each other is true?

I hope that Professor Moran will have the grace to own that his critique of the fine-tuning argument was uninformed, and that Intelligent Design proponents have done their homework on this argument.

Professor Moran’s scientism lies tattered in shreds; his critique of the fine-tuning argument has been thoroughly eviscerated; and his “three strikes” against Dr. Denis Alexander turned out to be fouls. Would a retraction be out of the question, Professor?

Comments
hrun0815, You haven't read my posts, have you? Go and take a look. If David Copperfield could duplicate St. Joseph of Cupertino's feats using 17th century technology than I'd be mighty impressed.vjtorley
February 21, 2016
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MatSpirit casts doubt on the Exodus:
Exodus 12:37 says, “And the children of Israel journeyed from Ramses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, besides children.” I get 2,000,000 by doubling the number of men to get 1,200,000 men and women and the children will easily bring the number up to 2,000,000. I don’t know why Numbers says 22,273. Maybe a man came up with that figure. The important Point is that we can find the campfires of individual Bedouin families living in the desert, but there is no sign of the entire Israeli nation living there for 40 years, whether their numbers were 20 thousand or 2 million.
For the umpteenth time, MatSpirit, "six hundred thousand" is a mistranslation. Dr. Bryant Wood writes:
At the heart of the issue is the meaning of the Hebrew word eleph. It is usually translated “thousand,” but has a complex semantic history. The word is etymologically connected with “head of cattle,” like the letter aleph, implying that the term was originally applied to the village or population unit in a pastoral-agricultural society. From that it came to mean the quota supplied by one village or “clan” (Hebrew Mišp?h?? ) for the military muster (Malamat 1967: 135). Originally the contingent was quite small, five to fourteen men in the quota lists of Numbers 1 and 26, as shown by Mendenhall (1958). Finally the word became a technical term for a military unit of considerable size, which together with the use of the same word for the number 1,000 has tended to obscure its broader semantic range. See also Humphreys 1998 and 2000, and Hoffmeier 2005: 153–59.
Re your point that "we can find the campfires of individual Bedouin families living in the desert, but there is no sign of the entire Israeli nation living there for 40 years," I have to ask: what percentage of the Arabian desert has been dug up? Close to zero. It's like looking for a needle in a haystack - especially if the original population of the Israelites was closer to 20,000 than 2 million.vjtorley
February 21, 2016
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I’ve presented evidence for the supernatural in two previous posts, where I discussed the levitations of St. Joseph of Cupertino, which were witnessed by thousands, on no less than 1,500 occasions, over a period of decades
I'm pretty sure that David Copperfield has performed for longer and witnessed by more people!hrun0815
February 21, 2016
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MatSpirit asks:
Show me the steps primitive life took to a DNA based reproductive system and show me which step contains a jump too great for evolution to bridge.
Please see this post of mine, which quotes from the relevant section of Koonin's paper. The logic is not hard to follow: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/hoyles-fallacy-i-think-not/vjtorley
February 21, 2016
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You’ve been informed of about twelve hundred (1,200) scientific studies from top tier universities on the remarkable effect of prayer . . .
Now this is stunningly laughable--even for UD.hrun0815
February 21, 2016
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MatSpirit writes:
If God wants us to believe in Him, let Him show Himself. If He’s shy, He can appear as a pillar of cloud during the day and a pillar of fire at night. If a pillar of cloud appeared over the Capital and started to issue commands, most atheists would start believing immediately.
I've presented evidence for the supernatural in two previous posts, where I discussed the levitations of St. Joseph of Cupertino, which were witnessed by thousands, on no less than 1,500 occasions, over a period of decades: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/no-evidence-for-gods-existence-you-say-a-response-to-larry-moran/ https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/what-evidence-is/vjtorley
February 21, 2016
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Hi MatSpirit, Re your assertion that God doesn't heal Alzheimer's, please see here: http://www1.cbn.com/doctors-amazed-pastors-recovery-dementia You might like to have a look at this article, too, especially the last paragraph: http://www.ltlmagazine.com/article/pentecostal-moments-long-term-care-part-2vjtorley
February 21, 2016
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You know, you see it coming, you know what the reply is going to be, but when it actually comes you're still disgusted. You only quoted it. Well, what else can you say? Certainly not, "I was wrong."MatSpirit
February 21, 2016
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Except I didn't write the passage, it was a quotation. There are over a thousand scientific studies verifying the effectiveness of prayer that you can pick from, but maybe you don't care that much about scientific studies or your mom. Too bad. Why don't you try a scientific experiment of your own? Read the Bible and pray for your mom for maybe 20 minutes a day. Keep a diary. Start with one of the Gospels, such as John. -QQuerius
February 19, 2016
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Querious Msg 110: "Why am I not surprised that you’re now fabricating what I wrote? The only book I recommended was the Bible, along with some prayer for your mother." Querious Msg 100: "Traditional religious beliefs have a variety of effects on personal health, says Koenig, senior author of the Handbook of Religion and Health, a new release that documents nearly 1,200 studies done on the effects of prayer on health."MatSpirit
February 19, 2016
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MatSpirit, Why am I not surprised that you're now fabricating what I wrote? The only book I recommended was the Bible, along with some prayer for your mother. I'm sure if you were honestly concerned about your mother, you might follow up with a few of the actual studies, which would provide you with the scientific evidence amassed from over a thousand studies. You said a 10% difference would have you on your knees. However, apparently you instead prefer to find fault with the compilation. Sorry, but you have no credibility. Locate a few of the actual studies, and do what you promised to do. -QQuerius
February 18, 2016
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MatSpirit believes:
If God wants us to believe in Him, let Him show Himself. If He’s shy, He can appear as a pillar of cloud during the day and a pillar of fire at night. If a pillar of cloud appeared over the Capital and started to issue commands, most atheists would start believing immediately.
As far as I'm concerned that is a ridiculous expectation. Part of a straw-man argument. You even have a gender picked out for an entity in the image and likeness of all in creation, including female. You sure have a dim view of what reasonable people believe. Not that I am saying all coming from UD is reasonable, if that were true then I would not need to be here right now.GaryGaulin
February 18, 2016
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Querious, if you're going to recommend a book, please read it first to see if it actually says what you think it does. You can sample it here: https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=m5RoAgAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PP1&dq=koenig+1200+studies+prayer+religion+health&ots=rnQxmnMSu2&sig=QVQLEIJNCnbd5g06FJZDamIcXvM#v=snippet&q=prayer&f=false Good luck finding 1200 studies on the efficacy of prayer in this book. There're a very few mentions of studies on the affects of prayer on the non-prayer - nothing to get excited about. One of the studies appears to have had the patient listen to a prayer on a CD - while under anaesthesia. All I could find in the table of contents, the bits the web site lets me read and doing searches is the stuff I've been telling you about: live clean, have all the friends you can get, keep in frequent touch with them, get out of the house and be seen regularly, keep a positive attitude - thats the kind of stuff that helps keep you alive and healthy. It works if you do it via religion, as in this book, and it works just as well if you do it by secular means, although you wouldn't know it by reading "Handbook of Religion and Health." By the way, did you see the price of that thing? $155.99 for the e-book! For an academic publication! There's a button if you want to but a paper version. I didn't press it.MatSpirit
February 18, 2016
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MatSpirit, You've been informed of about twelve hundred (1,200) scientific studies from top tier universities on the remarkable effect of prayer . . . and you can't be bothered to pray for your own mom because, contrary to over a thousand scientific studies, you've decided all by yourself with all scientific evidence to the contrary that prayer doesn't work? Oh. My. Gosh. I think you've just demonstrated to everyone what kind of person you are! You were given a ton of scientific evidence, (and I bet you haven't even looked at one of them let alone a dozen). You promised that if the evidence of even a 10% effect were presented to you, you'd be on your knees. Hogwash! -QQuerius
February 17, 2016
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You quoted me statistics on church attendence and religion leading to longer life. Mom's a great believer and church attender. But the subject was prayer, which has been tested and failed. Anything that gets you out of the house and meeting with others regularly will add to longevity. We're social animals and we don't do well alone. Joining a bowling league, taking a class or joining the Lions club works as well as going to church. To get a few clues here, if you're a homeless refugee your life will be shortened by years - and you won't be going to church. If you've been bed-ridden for a decade your life expectancy is going to be shortened and you won't go to church. If you live alone and spend all your time reading your Bible, nobody will see you fall with a heart attack and call an ambulance. Do you think Mr. Koenig knows all this? Then why doesn't he mention it? Ignorance or dishonesty? Since he's probably religious, I'm betting the former. After all, if you find some facts that support your religeous beliefs, why investigate them further?MatSpirit
February 17, 2016
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MatSpirit @ 102, You said that you'd be on your knees at a 10% positive influence. I quoted you 1,200 scientific studies that did far more than that. But you broke your promise even as your mother suffers from Alzheimer's. Try an experiment. Read the Bible. Pray for her seriously every day. Ask God to halt or reverse this horrible disease. Are you willing to try for your mom's sake? I'm just taking you at YOUR word. -QQuerius
February 17, 2016
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Hi, vjtorley. Getting back to the five other arguments against the multiverse: "first, it merely shifts the fine-tuning problem up one level, as a multiverse capable of generating even one life-supporting universe would still need to be fine-tuned;" Not really. Properties of the new universes are expected to be randomized. You just spew out a huge number of new randomized universes and the Law of Big Numbers will assure a few of them will be suitable for life. Precision is not only not needed, it would probably screw things up by preventing the wide range of universes necessary to get one that supports life. (And if the number of all universes is infinite and any proportion of them are life supporting then there are an infinite number of life supporting universes.) Second the multiverse hypothesis implies that a substantial proportion of universes were intelligently designed. Could you please remind me why this is so? You may have explained it, but there's a hundred messages to search through. Or is from that Davies'? If so, I've covered it above. Third: Boltzmann Brains. Covered above. Fourth: our universe should be much smaller. Is that the Boltzmann Brain again? I see that William Lane Craig argues that in "On Guard: Defending Your Faith With Reason and Precision", "Second Scientific Argument: The Beginning of the Universe" If so, covered above. Fifth: Elegant physics and math. Hardly convincing. I think the laws and math are elegant because they're simple. I probably missed some challenges, but its late. Please remind me if I did.MatSpirit
February 16, 2016
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Hi, vjtorley. I notice in 62 you included this: "The argument does not focus on the (unimaginably large) totality of all possible universes; instead, it is concerned only with those in our immediate neighborhood, which differ only slightly from our own: perhaps one or two parameters are altered, while the other parameters continue to be held at the values which obtain in this universe. The point is that if we confine ourselves to the possible universes within our neighborhood, it turns out that the number of changes in physical parameters which are fatal to life vastly outnumbers the changes that can be made which are compatible with life." What would you say is the ratio of livable to fatal universes? One in a hundred? One in a thousand? A million? A trillion? A gazillion? A Wolf! number? Every multiverse theory I'm aware of says that there are an infinite number of universes in existence, past and present. ANY number, no matter how small, divided into infinity gives infinity. The Multiverse adds an actual infinity to the equations. That makes math do surprising things.MatSpirit
February 16, 2016
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Querious, Alzheimers is taking my mother's mind away, bit by bit. If I thought that prayer would give even a ten percent chance of healing her, I sure as hell WOULD be on my knees every day, praying for her recovery. But we know that it won't work. Even the religeous know it won't work. They've stopped doing any kind of tests that night provide a trustworthy estimate of the effectiveness of prayer because they know perfectly well what the answer is going to be. If you disagree, try getting ANY religeous organization to pay for more tests.MatSpirit
February 16, 2016
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Boltzmann Brains redux: Boltzmann hypothesized that the universe as we see it today might have appeared in an instant as a fluctuation in an otherwise chaotic universe. This would be extremely unlikely because the information on the exact position and velocity (and lots more) of every atom, photon and whatnot of every star, planet and dust mote in the universe, along with every atom etc in every living organism would have to be produced at the same time. That's a staggering amount of information. Boltzmann's contemporaries pointed out that it would be much simpler, and thus more likely, if that fluctuation merely produced a single thinking brain because then you'd just have to specify the location, velocity and whatnot of the atoms in that brain and you could forget about the atoms in stars, planets, etc. It would still take a monstrously huge amount of information to produce that brain, but it would be still be insignificant compared to the amount of information you'd need to specify the entire universe. Consequently, you would expect uncountable gazillions of Boltzmann Brains to appear out of the chaos before you'd see a single universe appear. But today we know that the universe did not appear, fully formed, in an instant. Instead, about 14 billion years ago an indeterminate ammout of pure energy came into existence, along with a few laws and forces. We also have good reason to believe that some of the exact strengths of some of the forces were randomly selected and maybe all of them and the laws too. Those low information laws and forces, especially gravity, then produced the stars and planets and evolution produced the information for all life slowly, a bit at a time through the ordinary workings of physical laws. We no longer worry about the information needed to specify a brain or a universe with a brain because we know the information for those was produced after the Big Bang by ordinary physical laws. This means that we'll see an uncountably high number of Big Bangs appear before we see the first Boltzmann Brain and a much much larger number of Boltzmann Brains appear before we get our first universe. You say that a Boltzmann Brain isn't fine tuned, but that's wrong. The position and velocity of every atom in that brain has to be exactly right or you get a few kilos of mush. You couldn't even write down the number of bits you'd have to specify if the entire universe was paper.MatSpirit
February 16, 2016
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MatSpirit @ 98,
If He doesn’t want to do that, then just tipping the survival rate for those patients who are prayed for by ten percent would give us pause. In fact, I’d be down on my knees praying right now. Ten percent is nothing to sneeze at. But prayer is clinically proven to make no difference.
No, you wouldn't. And there you go again just making up "facts" to suit your opinion.
Traditional religious beliefs have a variety of effects on personal health, says Koenig, senior author of the Handbook of Religion and Health, a new release that documents nearly 1,200 studies done on the effects of prayer on health. These studies show that religious people tend to live healthier lives. "They're less likely to smoke, to drink, to drink and drive," he says. In fact, people who pray tend to get sick less often, as separate studies conducted at Duke, Dartmouth, and Yale universities show. Some statistics from these studies: Hospitalized people who never attended church have an average stay of three times longer than people who attended regularly. Heart patients were 14 times more likely to die following surgery if they did not participate in a religion. Elderly people who never or rarely attended church had a stroke rate double that of people who attended regularly. In Israel, religious people had a 40% lower death rate from cardiovascular disease and cancer. Also, says Koenig, "people who are more religious tend to become depressed less often. And when they do become depressed, they recover more quickly from depression. That has consequences for their physical health and the quality of their lives."
Are you on your knees? Of course not. -QQuerius
February 16, 2016
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MatSpirit, Apparently, your tiny brain still cannot conceive of God as anything but a human being! God created life and he can take it away. In fact, everybody and everything dies in the end. So why aren't you complaining about the *horrible immorality* of Nature and Evolution where baby ducks get eaten by crocodiles? Nevertheless, you seem to cling to a concept of absolute good and evil. 1. Aren't you basing this belief on some absolute Moral Law? 2. Where there's an absolute Moral Law, there's a Moral Lawgiver. If on the other hand Moral Law is the result of consensus, then you could theoretically find yourself in a society where betrayal and murder is a positive attribute such as was the case with the Sawi people of New Guinea. What right do you have in assuming the position of Ultimate Lawgiver and Judge over the Sawi people? 3. If YOU aren't claiming to be the Ultimate Lawgiver, then who determines absolute good and evil? If you say society, then go back to 2. Rinse and repeat. -QQuerius
February 16, 2016
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VJT: "Finally, you ask why God doesn’t reveal Himself through scientific experiments that show prayer works. Short answer: even if He did, a skeptic might still argue that the miracle was not the work of God, but some alien prankster. With fine-tuning, on the other hand, that could only be the work of some Intelligence outside our universe." Such as an alien prankster in another universe. Or a multiverse containing a huge number of universes with randomized physics. Or any other of a hundred reasons that are more likely than the Judeo/Christian/Muslim God. Why do you insist God must jump through such a high hoop to prove his existance? Lady Gaga didn't and I'll bet you believe she exists. Ditto for Donald Trump, Jeb Bush, Tamerlan Tsarnaev and gravitational attraction. None of them fine tuned anything, so why do do you believe they exist or existed? If God wants us to believe in Him, let Him show Himself. If He's shy, He can appear as a pillar of cloud during the day and a pillar of fire at night. If a pillar of cloud appeared over the Capital and started to issue commands, most atheists would start believing immediately. If He doesn't want to do that, then just tipping the survival rate for those patients who are prayed for by ten percent would give us pause. In fact, I'd be down on my knees praying right now. Ten percent is nothing to sneeze at. But prayer is clinically proven to make no difference.MatSpirit
February 16, 2016
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VJT: "If a back-of-the-envelope calculation suggests that the molecules required for the evolution of a replication-translation system are far beyond the reach of chance, by many orders of magnitude, then that’s a strong prima facie reason for at least provisionally accepting that modern-day life-forms were intelligently designed." Really? If I give you a back of the envelope calculation showing Christ was an ordinary human who just wanted Jews to be better Jews because the world was ending soon, would you at least provisionally accept that he was just a human and get a better religion? I'm betting that you would want a good long look at those calculations and all the factors that went into them. Ditto. Show me the steps primitive life took to a DNA based reproductive system and show ne which step contains a jump too great for evolution to bridge.MatSpirit
February 16, 2016
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Querious, I'm taking God AND HIS ACTIONS as they are reported in the Bible. I'm pointing out that THE THINGS GOD DOES, as reported in the Bible, are grossly immoral. The Bible isn't talking about building a house and tearing it down, it tells us God personaly KILLED the oldest boy in every family in Egypt. (Ex 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.) God kills the oldest son of Pharoah, of every peasant, of every prisoner in the dungeon and their cattle too! Your "defense" of this is to say that God doesn't have to answer to any court. Well, neither did Stalin, Hitler or Pol Pot. Will you defend them too? Christians say that atheists have no grounds for their morality. Atheists read the Bible, see the foundation of Christian morality and shudder.MatSpirit
February 16, 2016
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MatSpirit @ 92 snarked,
Speaking of under specified arguments, there’s an even worse type that comes up. You can see an example in 82 where Querious tells us that God has a justification for His actions, but He is just too gosh darned mighty and intelligent for us to understand it.
You just can't or won't break free from a caricature of God as a very old man, a capricious, murderous idiot with a big white beard, sitting on a chair in the clouds. This might come as a shock, but God is not a human. God is not bound by time. God exists in the past, the present, and the future simultaneously. God creates life and he can take it away. At any time. For his own purposes. And he doesn't have to answer to you or any court. But you call the court into session and you are the righteous judge, lawyer, and jury rolled into one. All things are revealed to you, and God is on trial. He is charged with building a house and then (gasp) tearing it down, creating life in a test tube and then (gasp) flushing it away. "In my opinion," you argue, "there is no defense against such travesty!" "Guilty," you cry! "Who gave you the right to tear down the house you built or flush away the life you created?" With smug satisfaction you have found fault with God. And since God is no longer perfect by your standards, you reason, then he cannot possibly judge you by his standards. "It wouldn't be fair, you reason." But it doesn't work like that. Because God is not a man, and he can tear down what he made. He also made a way out for you. -QQuerius
February 16, 2016
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From #88 Assume fake universes vastly outnumber the real ones. It would be rational for someone living in one of the fakes to assume it was a fake. He would therefore not be able to tell if real universes generate multiple universes. The real universes, meanwhile, would know nothing of his plight and would happily continue generating new universes. Important takeaway: Nothing in a fake universe will affect anything in any real universe except the one that spawned it. More important conclusion: Our theories can always be wrong, often in ways we never expected. Most important conclusion: never the less, we struggle on and darn, but this universe certainly looks like it was manufactured by some not particularly intelligent process about 14 billion years ago. I have one other criticism of Davies' theory. He thinks the fake (from now on "digital") universes would greatly outnumber the real ones. I'm not so sure. (1) All the multiverse theories I've heard of assume the laws and other properties of each universe are going to be partly or completely random and therefore the vast, vast majority of all universes will be chaotic, lifeless messes. See any discussion of fine tuning for details. (2) That means the vast, vast majority of all universes will contain no intelligent creatures capable of creating digital universes, but they may be very well able to produce more natural universes. (3) Davie's assumes that digital universes are much cheaper to produce than real ones. Actually, simulating a universe would require a lot of digital resources and those cost money, take up space, and consume power. They'll get cheaper and there are ways you can reduce the resources used, but you're always going to need a lot of them for each universe and you're going to have to pay for them. It's impossible to estimate how many digital universes might be built, but looking at video games today might give an idea. (4) under some multiverse theories, making a new universe might be cheap. It may not take much energy to create a universe. Some physicists think the process is free. Some wild cards to consider: Multiverse theories that allow unending production of new universes effectively introduce real infinity to the equations, often with unexpected results.MatSpirit
February 15, 2016
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)$&&@?! I had a message replying to #86 2/3 written, I go to another tab to look up a number in Exodus and I come back and everything I wrote is gone. I no longer trust my tablet. Ok, from memory and on an older tablet: Lakatos argues that a high level scientific theory (such as evolution) cannot be falsified by a single experiment (as the Big Numbers / Wolf! arguments try to do.). Rather such theories are falsified by the research programs devoted to them (such as the Old Testament is From God theory and ID theory) grinding to a halt (as those did in the 19th century). No argument from me on this. Then you essentially go for the Null Hypothesis and argue that a man wrote the stories. Again, no argument from me. Then you bring up Dr. Lydia McGrew who begins her paper with a caution that she's a layman in biology. Good on her for that. She also provides a link to a post by Paul McBride, a PhD candidate in evolutionary biology and thus not a layman. Good again. But then she mentions favorably "Science and Human Origins", Ann Gauger and Casey Luskin! I wonder if she thinks Casey left a good paying job at the Discovery Institute to further his education? Do you? Anyhow, McBride's paper looks like a good one, McGrew, Science and Origins, Gauger and Luskin have no credibility, so I recommend McBride. Exodus 12:37 says, "And the children of Israel journeyed from Ramses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, besides children." I get 2,000,000 by doubling the number of men to get 1,200,000 men and women and the children will easily bring the number up to 2,000,000. I don't know why Numbers says 22,273. Maybe a man came up with that figure. The important Point is that we can find the campfires of individual Beduin families living in the desert, but there is no sign of the entire Israeli nation living there for 40 years, whether their numbers were 20 thousand or 2 million. I think the null hypothesis is much more likely.MatSpirit
February 15, 2016
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Hi VJT. "You’re asking me to believe in abiogenesis simply because it hasn’t been mathematically proved to be impossible, in a rigorous fashion. You’ve got to be kidding me." You misunderstand the argument. Professor Koonin obviously believes that life exists today and that it hasn'talways existed. Furthermore, he seems to believe that at some point between fhe first super simple living thing and present day life features came into being too quickly for evolution to have produced them. Fine. What were the DNA sequences in the living things that came between First Life and today's life? (Since First Life didn't use DNA he'd also need to tell us how life acquired DNA.) Once Professor Koonin provides that information (and gets it out from behind that $40.00 paywall), we will be in a position to evaluate his argument Until then, it's just another Big Numbers! / Wolf! Style argument. You might feel that providing that amount of information is impossible, but ID fans demand it of science all the time. Speaking of under specified arguments, there's an even worse type that comes up. You can see an example in 82 where Querious tells us that God has a justification for His actions, but He is just too gosh darned mighty and intelligent for us to understand it. Can you imagine a mass murderer in the dock, accused of killing the oldest boy in, say, every family in Helsinki, with the evidence of his crimes being overwhelmingly convincing and his telling the Judge, "Your honor, I freely admit I killed every one of those kids, but I was perfectly justified in murdering them. However, you and everybody else in this court are too stupid and ignorant to understand the explanation so just let me go." Would you give ANY credence to that non - explanation?MatSpirit
February 15, 2016
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@matspirit @85 Suppose you live in closed box that you cannot see out of. Inside you do all kinds of testing and conclude nothing exists outside the box. One day you find written on the wall that something exists outside the box, signed by someone that actually was outside the box. Do you disregard because you yourself has not been outside the box? Do you take the writers word for it?buffalo
February 15, 2016
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