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Larry Moran needs to do some more reading

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I had intended to write a post on whales as products of Intelligent Design. But the whales will have to wait. In the space of just three hours, Professor Larry Moran has put up two remarkably silly posts. And in both cases, Professor Moran could have spared himself the embarrassment if he had done just a little more reading.

The first post, titled, Can theology produce true knowledge?, critiques Dr. Denis Alexander’s claim that there are other, equally valid, ways of knowing besides science. Professor Moran thinks this is flawed on three counts: first, natural theology is question-begging because “you have to assume the existence of a creator god before you would even think of interpreting the natural world as the produce of his creative mind”; second, “faith cannot be falsified as easily as scientific hypotheses and models,” since alleged falsifications can easily be rationalized away by reinterpreting the Bible in a metaphorical sense, and in any case, “much of what’s written in the Bible has been falsified” (especially with regard to human origins); and thirdly, religious experience does not count as a legitimate way of knowing, owing to the human capacity for self-delusion: you have to “prove to an outside observer that you are not deluded,” and the only way to do that is to “provide evidence that your god is real and that’s the scientific way of knowing.” Professor Moran concludes that Dr. Alexander has failed to make a case for “the ability of theology to produce true knowledge.” After this devastating triple refutation, Moran gleefully chortles:

Strike three.

You’re out, Dr. Alexander. This is a baseball analogy… You have lost your wicket. You are dismissed.

Perhaps someone should tell Professor Moran that there are no wickets in the game of baseball, and that the image which he has attached to the end of his post is not one of a batter being struck out in the game of baseball, but of a batsman being bowled out in the game of cricket.

This is what a strikeout looks like, Professor Moran:

(In the photo above, taken in 2006, Cincinnati Reds outfielder Adam Dunn strikes out swinging to Atlanta Braves pitcher John Smoltz. Braves’ catcher Brian McCann catches the pitch behind the plate. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.)

Why Professor Moran’s three strikes fail miserably

Let’s return to Professor Moran’s “three strikes” against Dr. Denis Alexander. What about Moran’s first strike: his claim that natural theology is question-begging, because it begins with the assumption that God exists? That would be news to St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274), the foremost theologian of the Catholic Church, who begins his article, Whether God exists? (Summa Theologica I, q.2, art.3) by marshaling two arguments against God’s existence – the argument from evil and Occam’s razor – before proceeding to argue that “the existence of God can be proved in five ways.” Don’t believe me? Go on, have a look:

Objection 1. It seems that God does not exist; because if one of two contraries be infinite, the other would be altogether destroyed. But the word “God” means that He is infinite goodness. If, therefore, God existed, there would be no evil discoverable; but there is evil in the world. Therefore God does not exist.

Objection 2. Further, it is superfluous to suppose that what can be accounted for by a few principles has been produced by many. But it seems that everything we see in the world can be accounted for by other principles, supposing God did not exist. For all natural things can be reduced to one principle which is nature; and all voluntary things can be reduced to one principle which is human reason, or will. Therefore there is no need to suppose God’s existence.

You can’t get a fairer statement of the case for atheism than that.

Now, I’m sure Professor Moran will respond that he doesn’t find Aquinas’ Five Ways convincing – although he really should peruse Ed Feser’s short and highly readable book, Aquinas: A Beginner’s Guide (Oneworld Publications, paperback, 2009) before venturing an opinion on the subject. Be that as it may, Moran is manifestly wrong in asserting that natural theology assumes the existence of God. It doesn’t: Aquinas’ Five Ways, for instance, merely assume the existence of change, causation, contingent states of affairs, grades of perfection, and things that tend to produce certain characteristic effects. (And in case Moran is interested, there are cogent contemporary arguments for God’s existence – see here, here and here.)

I think any fair-minded umpire would rule against Moran’s strike one, calling it a foul instead.

What of Moran’s second strike: that faith isn’t falsifiable in the same way as science is, because statements in the Bible which are contradicted by scientific discoveries can always be reinterpreted metaphorically? Wrong on two counts. First, Moran is assuming that Christianity is tied to the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy. It isn’t. You could believe in all of the doctrines of the Apostles’ Creed – and the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds as well, which are much more explicit about the Trinity – without believing in the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy. That was C.S. Lewis’s position, for instance.

What, then, is Christianity tied to? The most logical way to define Christianity is to look at the credal statements drawn up by the early Christians themselves – notably, the Apostles’ Creed, which, in its Old Roman form, is probably the oldest known statement of the Christian faith, dating back to before 200 A.D.. What the creed affirms is the following: that God created the universe (“heaven and earth”); that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, named Mary; that He was crucified under Pontius Pilate, rose again on the third day, and ascended to be with His Heavenly Father; that He will return to judge the living and the dead; that in addition to the Father and the Son, there is a Holy Spirit; that there is a communion of saints in Heaven as well as a holy catholic church on earth; that sins can be forgiven; and that there will one day be a resurrection of the dead to everlasting life. Some of these statements are obviously falsifiable: if it turned out, for instance, that the universe had no beginning (and hence no Creator), or that the doctrine of the Virgin birth was a second-century addition to the Christian faith; or that no individual named Jesus of Nazareth, professing to be a king, was ever crucified under Pontius Pilate; or that such an individual was crucified, but his body was dug up next week by archaeologists in Palestine, then it would be curtains for Christianity. The early Christian Fathers thought likewise, which is why they went to such lengths to refute attacks on their faith by skeptics. And herein lies Moran’s second error: when he suggests that Christianity is immune to falsification because its teachings can always be reinterpreted metaphorically, he never asks himself the vital question: reinterpreted by whom? The Bible itself never asks us to believe in God, even if He didn’t create the universe; nor does it ask us to believe in Jesus Christ, even if He didn’t rise from the grave. The notion that religious faith ought to be unfalsifiable is a theological novelty, which seems to have arisen in Christian circles a mere 220 years ago, in the writings of Friedrich Schleiermacher (1768-1834), who was heavily influenced by the philosopher Spinoza’s naturalistic critique of miracles. However, Schleiermacher’s position is a minority view among Christians to this day, and to his credit, Dr. Denis Alexander (the molecular biologist who is the object of Moran’s scorn) roundly rejects such a compromise view: for him, the discovery of Jesus’ bones in Palestine would falsify Christianity.

The Arnolfini Portrait, by Jan van Eyck (c. 1390-1441). Date: 1434. National Gallery, London. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.

So much for Professor Moran’s first two strikes. What of his third strike: his claim that you can’t know anything from religious experience unless you can “prove to an outside observer that you are not deluded”? What Moran’s argument implicitly assumes is that you can’t know something is true unless you can prove it to an unbiased outsider. But knowing and proving are very different things, and in the course of everyday life, there are many things that we can properly claim to know, even though we cannot prove them. We do not (and should not) need a scientist to tell us that someone whom we know very well is trustworthy, or that someone in our family loves us. These judgments that we make about particular individuals are intuitive rather than scientific: often we may be quite certain of them, even though we are unable to articulate the grounds for our certainty. Professor Moran might respond that our intuitive judgments about others are nevertheless empirically testable: for instance, the behavior of your spouse over the course of time can lend strong evidential support to the hypothesis that s/he loves you. But even if statements like “My spouse loves me” are testable, we typically come to believe in their truth long before we have subjected them to systematic testing. And we are right to do so.

Professor Moran could argue that at least an unbiased outsider can be satisfied by the evidence that my spouse exists: he can see her and talk to her, for instance. However, the situation is quite different when it comes to God: many people (including people who would like to believe in God) have never had an experience of Him, and therefore doubt or deny His existence. But what this argument illicitly assumes is that religious experience is uniformly accessible to everyone. Perhaps it isn’t; maybe it requires a certain aptitude on the part of the recipient. Just as some otherwise normal people are quite tone-deaf, it may be the case that some people are (through no particular fault of their own) deaf to the “still, small voice of God.” I can quite sympathize; in my entire life, I’ve had only a couple of experiences that I might describe as a sense of the presence of God, and I certainly haven’t heard any voices or seen any visions. But if other people are convinced that they have, then who am I to say that they have no right to be sure they’ve seen God until I can see what they claim to have seen? That would be extremely presumptuous of me. It could be that I’m just religiously tone-deaf – or very hard of hearing. Should I be wary of visionaries’ claims? Certainly – especially when different people claim to see different things. But that has no bearing on the question of whether these people’s experiences count as a valid source of knowledge – at least for them.

What’s wrong with Moran’s claim that science is the only way of knowing?

In his post, Can theology produce true knowledge?, Professor Moran concludes that “for the time being, science is the only proven way to arrive at true knowledge.” If he had taken the trouble to read Associate Professor Edward Feser’s short article in Public Discourse, Blinded by Scientism (March 9, 2010), he would have seen why this statement is simply ridiculous. Here’s how Feser (an ex-atheist) demolishes the view that all real knowledge is scientific knowledge (scientism):

Despite its adherents’ pose of rationality, scientism has a serious problem: it is either self-refuting or trivial. Take the first horn of this dilemma. The claim that scientism is true is not itself a scientific claim, not something that can be established using scientific methods. Indeed, that science is even a rational form of inquiry (let alone the only rational form of inquiry) is not something that can be established scientifically. For scientific inquiry itself rests on a number of philosophical assumptions: that there is an objective world external to the minds of scientists; that this world is governed by causal regularities; that the human intellect can uncover and accurately describe these regularities; and so forth. Since science presupposes these things, it cannot attempt to justify them without arguing in a circle. And if it cannot even establish that it is a reliable form of inquiry, it can hardly establish that it is the only reliable form. Both tasks would require “getting outside” science altogether and discovering from that extra-scientific vantage point that science conveys an accurate picture of reality—and in the case of scientism, that only science does so.

The rational investigation of the philosophical presuppositions of science has, naturally, traditionally been regarded as the province of philosophy. Nor is it these presuppositions alone that philosophy examines. There is also the question of how to interpret what science tells us about the world. For example, is the world fundamentally comprised of substances or events? What is it to be a “cause”? Is there only one kind? (Aristotle held that there are at least four.) What is the nature of the universals referred to in scientific laws — concepts like quark, electron, atom, and so on — and indeed in language in general? Do they exist over and above the particular things that instantiate them? Scientific findings can shed light on such metaphysical questions, but can never fully answer them. Yet if science must depend upon philosophy both to justify its presuppositions and to interpret its results, the falsity of scientism seems doubly assured. As the conservative philosopher John Kekes (himself a confirmed secularist like Derbyshire and MacDonald) concludes: “Hence philosophy, and not science, is a stronger candidate for being the very paradigm of rationality.”

Here we come to the second horn of the dilemma facing scientism. Its advocate may now insist: if philosophy has this status, it must really be a part of science, since (he continues to maintain, digging in his heels) all rational inquiry is scientific inquiry. The trouble now is that scientism becomes completely trivial, arbitrarily redefining “science” so that it includes anything that could be put forward as evidence against it. Worse, it makes scientism consistent with views that are supposed to be incompatible with it. For example, a line of thought deriving from Aristotle and developed with great sophistication by Thomas Aquinas holds that when we work out what it is for one thing to be the cause of another, we are inexorably led to the existence of an Uncaused Cause outside time and space which continually sustains the causal regularities studied by science, and apart from which they could not in principle exist even for a moment.

If “scientism” is defined so broadly that it includes (at least in principle) philosophical theology of this kind, then the view becomes completely vacuous. For the whole point of scientism — or so it would seem given the rhetoric of its loudest adherents — was supposed to be to provide a weapon by which fields of inquiry like theology might be dismissed as inherently unscientific and irrational.

(The bolding in the above passage is mine – VJT.)

Of course, it might turn out that biochemist Larry Moran has a crushing rejoinder to Edward Feser, who is a professional philosopher. And for that matter, pigs might fly. But I certainly wouldn’t bet on either proposition.

Why Moran’s critique of the fine-tuning argument fails

Professor Moran’s second silly post of February 8 is titled, Intelligent Design Creationism and the fine-tuning argument. Moran thinks that biochemist Michael Denton (who is a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture) is “not a trustworthy source of information” when it comes to the fine-tuning argument. So who does he turn to instead? The late physicist Victor Stenger, author of God the Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist. Moran writes:

I have to trust an authority on this one. I choose to trust physicist Igor (sic) Stenger who has actually done an experiment to test the hypothesis of fine tuning.

I conclude that fine tuning is not a valid argument for the existence of gods.

Evidently Professor Moran has not read (or heard of) the devastating refutation of Victor Stenger’s “take-down” of the fine-tuning argument by cosmologist Dr. Luke Barnes, in a 2011 ARXIV paper titled, The Fine-Tuning of the Universe for Intelligent Life. For the benefit of readers who dislike mathematics, I’ve written a non-technical overview of Dr. Barnes’ paper, titled, Is fine-tuning a fallacy? (January 5, 2012). In his paper, Dr. Barnes takes care to avoid drawing any metaphysical conclusions from the fact of fine-tuning. He has no religious axe to grind. His main concern is simply to establish that the fine-tuning of the universe is real, contrary to the claims of Professor Stenger, who asserts that all of the alleged examples of fine-tuning in our universe can be explained without the need for a multiverse.

Not only has Professor Moran not heard of Dr. Luke Barnes, but he hasn’t even picked the best critique of the fine-tuning argument for the existence of God, which was made by physicist Dr. Sean Carroll in a debate with Dr. William Lane Craig. I’ve responded to Dr. Carroll in a post titled, Debunking the debunker: How Sean Carroll gets the fine-tuning argument wrong.

I might add that Professor Stenger’s denial of the very existence of fine-tuning puts him at odds with most experts in the field. Here is a list of prominent scientists (compiled by Dr. Barnes) who acknowledge the reality of fine-tuning:

Barrow, Carr, Carter, Davies, Hawkins,
Deutsch, Ellis, Greene, Guth, Harrison,
Hawking, Linde, Page, Penrose,
Polkinghorne, Rees, Sandage, Smolin,
Susskind, Tegmark, Tipler, Vilenkin,
Weinberg, Wheeler, Wilczek

Commenting on these scientists’ religious perspectives, Dr. Barnes remarks: “The list is a roughly equal mix of theist, non-theist and unknown.”

Now, if Professor Moran thinks that Victor Stenger is a more trustworthy source than these eminent scientists, then he is entitled to his opinion; however, he cannot credibly claim to be listening to what the experts have to say.

Dr. Barnes’ conclusions at the end of his paper, The Fine-Tuning of the Universe for Intelligent Life, are well worth quoting:

We conclude that the universe is fine-tuned for the existence of life. Of all the ways that the laws of nature, constants of physics and initial conditions of the universe could have been, only a very small subset permits the existence of intelligent life. (p. 62)

It is not true that fine-tuning must eventually yield to the relentless march of science. Fine-tuning is not a typical scientific problem, that is, a phenomenon in our universe that cannot be explained by our current understanding of physical laws. It is not a gap. Rather, we are concerned with the physical laws themselves. In particular, the anthropic coincidences are not like, say, the coincidence between inertial mass and gravitational mass in Newtonian gravity, which is a coincidence between two seemingly independent physical quantities. Anthropic coincidences, on the other hand, involve a happy consonance between a physical quantity and the requirements of complex, embodied intelligent life. The anthropic coincidences are so arresting because we are accustomed to thinking of physical laws and initial conditions as being unconcerned with how things turn out. Physical laws are material and efficient causes, not final causes. There is, then, no reason to think that future progress in physics will render a life-permitting universe inevitable. When physics is finished, when the equation is written on the blackboard and fundamental physics has gone as deep as it can go, fine-tuning may remain, basic and irreducible. (p. 63)

Perhaps the most optimistic scenario is that we will eventually discover a simple, beautiful physical principle from which we can derive a unique physical theory, whose unique solution describes the universe as we know it, including the standard model, quantum gravity, and (dare we hope) the initial conditions of cosmology. While this has been the dream of physicists for centuries, there is not the slightest bit of evidence that this idea is true. It is almost certainly not true of our best hope for a theory of quantum gravity, string theory, which has “anthropic principle written all over it” (Schellekens, 2008). The beauty of its principles has not saved us from the complexity and contingency of the solutions to its equations. Beauty and simplicity are not necessity. (p.63)

At the end of his post, Professor Moran asks:

Can Intelligent Design Creationists refute the views of Stenger and other physicists or have they just convinced themselves that what they say to each other is true?

I hope that Professor Moran will have the grace to own that his critique of the fine-tuning argument was uninformed, and that Intelligent Design proponents have done their homework on this argument.

Professor Moran’s scientism lies tattered in shreds; his critique of the fine-tuning argument has been thoroughly eviscerated; and his “three strikes” against Dr. Denis Alexander turned out to be fouls. Would a retraction be out of the question, Professor?

Comments
Why must earth be the only "fine tuned speck?" Nobody knows how many of them exist.mike1962
February 12, 2016
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Me_Think, #55 "Why create the Universe if the aim was to fine tune a small speck (0.5 µm ) – which is what Earth is,when compared to the universe?" It reminds me of an old joke. A man lost his watch in the street at night. In order to try to find it, he came near a street light because there it was brighter than anywhere else and more convenient for him to search. Do you think there must be a pragmatic purpose in creating a world? How are you measuring the pragmatic gain of creating a smaller universe? Is it a gain in terms of saved resources? What kind of resources? Energy? What if the source of the universe is not a material one? Why do you think there must be a scientific answer to your question? Will you accept any other answer e.g. aesthetic or theological? Will you accept a possibility of there being no answer for a human being to ever know at all?EugeneS
February 12, 2016
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Matspirit
think the BB was a low information event because we observe that the universe had very little information in it at the beginning. There were no stars, planets, galaxies, certainly no life forms, just pure blinding energy so hot it would incinerate any atoms present.
So you were there to witness this? I'm going to burst your bubble...... if we don't even know what triggers lightning then how exactly do you know this? Yes look it up, we don't know what triggers lightning might as well be Thor or Zeus.Andre
February 12, 2016
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MatSpirit. So Newton and some reverend worked it out to 6000 years, you think there is a multiverse neither of you are correct. Do you actually understand the problem with a multiverse or do I have to repeat it to you? If the multiverse is true, then everything is true and science is pointless...... Jesus is true, Darth Vader is true, Freddie is true, Ewoks are true, flying pink unicorns are true the FSM is true..... absolutely nothing is false..... That is the problem with the multiverse.Andre
February 12, 2016
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"If there are lots and lots more universes, the ones that get the hydrogen bond right will have life." Pretty informative ;)EugeneS
February 12, 2016
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Why create the Universe if the aim was to fine tune a small speck (0.5 µm ) - which is what Earth is,when compared to the universe ?Me_Think
February 12, 2016
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Querius, Whether it was forced through a hole, tunneled in, appeared in a puff of smoke, whatever - at the beginning of the Big Bang the universe seems to have been squeezed into a ball of Planck dimensions and I don't think much survived that. I think the BB was a low information event because we observe that the universe had very little information in it at the beginning. There were no stars, planets, galaxies, certainly no life forms, just pure blinding energy so hot it would incinerate any atoms present. What kind of info would you need to duplicate our early universe? Some details on sub atomic particles and their properties, how gravity works, how photons are made and behave - what else? It's only after sub atomic particles have formed from the original energy and atoms from the particles that gravity starts drawing them into stars etc and real complexity starts to develop. I hope to be discussing multiverse with Dr. Torley later, so til then.MatSpirit
February 11, 2016
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bill cole: Thanks for the Yocky link, but its behind a $40 pay wall for me. What little I can glean from the abstract is not encouraging. I'll look around for some articles from him though. If the hydrogen bonds aren't right for DNA, you won't have DNA. If they're not even good enough for simple life, that universe will be lifeless. If there are lots and lots more universes, the ones that get the hydrogen bond right will have life.MatSpirit
February 11, 2016
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Andre, I hope to discuss the multiverse and the origins of physical laws with VJT soon so I'll hold off discussing them now. The Bible doesn't give a date for Creation, but in message 24 I give dates calculated by several theologians and scholars that cluster around 4000 BC. Two of them, Venerable Bede and Archbishop Ussher are still revered today, four centuries later. Toss in Newton's estimate of 4000 BC and I think you can be pretty sure that the Bible dates the Creation to circa 4000 BC.MatSpirit
February 11, 2016
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VJT, Koonen is one of those people I mentioned in a previous message who hold up a MODERN organism and declare that, "The odds against this baby forming by chance are 1 in 10 to the 1018 against!" To which, the proper answer is something like, "No kidding? Was that organism present four billion years ago? No? Well, what WAS present and what are the odds that IT formed randomly?" Dr. Koonen is not involved in Origin Of Life studies, doesn't seem to know jack about the subject and made a bit of a fool of himself. He committed Hoyles Fallacy by deciding against all evidence and expert knowledge in the OOL field that the first living thing was as complex as a 747 when everybody who actually works in the field and knows something about it thinks it's complexity was closer to that of a dead leaf. I used a short polymer (not a protein) in my example because I didn't want to make the same mistake. As for Dr Axe, I haven't followed his work personally, but I've read the opinions of some biologists who have and they don't seem to be impressed. He also seems to have made no impression on the rest of biology at all.MatSpirit
February 11, 2016
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This is such a troll.
If you think that the universe had any structure at all at the Big Bang, how did it survive being forced through a hole one Planck Length in diameter? A Planck length is 1/100 trillion trillionth of the diameter of a proton. It’s advertised as the smallest possible distance. Even space itself is supposed to be composed of independent Planck sized pieces according to some theories. I don’t think much would squeeze through that tiny hole intact.
LOLOLOLOL! Haven't ever heard of quantum mechanics, have you? Nothing has to squeeze "through" anything, let alone stretch what you incorrectly imagine is Planck distance.
Personally, I don’t think that any information beyond a little noise made it through the BB at all. This universe certainly contained very little information at Time=0. Instructions for making a handful of subatomic particles and a handful of laws of physics are about it. I’m betting that the laws formed spontaneously and are totally or at least partially random and therefore we exist in this universe at least partially through sheer luck.
Groundless speculation that's scientifically equivalent to believing in the Easter bunny. Except that your term would be something like a trans-dimensional lagomorph of the spring equinox, which makes it sound less ludicrous.
Getting back to Professor Moran for a moment, I read one of Professor Stenger’s books a few years ago and his point is that if you vary ALL of the constants, you find that a surprisingly large percentage of all the possible settings will provide long lived stars and chemistry complex enough to support life. Those universes wouldn’t be much like this one and we wouldn’t want to live in most of them, but some kind of life would be possible. The percentage was small, but much better than you would think from reading the religeous press.
The multiverse idea is pure mythology. It's not observable, testable, or scientific. These are Magical Universes that were spawned by other Magical Universes that might have appeared nested in a matrix of vibrational axes in five and a half dimensions that folded over onto themselves, while time oscillated randomly until a dominant vector established itself by means of strange attractors that compressed time into an ever-tightening double helix until it became a line. Complete baloney.
I don’t worry about fine tuning arguments because a multiverse consisting of an infinite number of universes with randomly varying physics in each of them will take care of the problem and thats the way physics is trending.
Of course you don't worry. The irreconcilable problems will solve themselves through pure faith that defies all logic, reason, or scientific process. Or as J.M. Barrie had Peter Pan warn, “The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” I gotta stop before I get any closer to your Schwarzschild radius. -QQuerius
February 11, 2016
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Matspirit Nowhere does the Bible say the universe started a few thousand years ago. If you have a biblical reference for such a wild and crazy statement please let us have it.Andre
February 11, 2016
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Matspirit says says it's a multiverse... 1. Do you have proof for this alledged multiverse? 2. Do you understand the problem of a multiverse? If it is true then everything is true.... Batman, Ewoks, Jason and Jesus.... nothing is false and science is pointless.Andre
February 11, 2016
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Matspirit says the laws started spontaneously...... haha hahahahahaha!!!!! Here is an undeniable fact; Every law has a lawmaker.Andre
February 11, 2016
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VJT, starting with (i), I have no problem with a contingent universe. It's pretty well established that this one popped into existence about 14 billion years ago. The interesting question is what caused that. If you think that the universe had any structure at all at the Big Bang, how did it survive being forced through a hole one Planck Length in diameter? A Planck length is 1/100 trillion trillionth of the diameter of a proton. It's advertised as the smallest possible distance. Even space itself is supposed to be composed of independent Planck sized pieces according to some theories. I don't think much would squeeze through that tiny hole intact. Personally, I don't think that any information beyond a little noise made it through the BB at all. This universe certainly contained very little information at Time=0. Instructions for making a handful of subatomic particles and a handful of laws of physics are about it. I'm betting that the laws formed spontaneously and are totally or at least partially random and therefore we exist in this universe at least partially through sheer luck. Getting back to Professor Moran for a moment, I read one of Professor Stenger's books a few years ago and his point is that if you vary ALL of the constants, you find that a surprisingly large percentage of all the possible settings will provide long lived stars and chemistry complex enough to support life. Those universes wouldn't be much like this one and we wouldn't want to live in most of them, but some kind of life would be possible. The percentage was small, but much better than you would think from reading the religeous press. I don't worry about fine tuning arguments because a multiverse consisting of an infinite number of universes with randomly varying physics in each of them will take care of the problem and thats the way physics is trending. Regarding Genesis, oh my! Jacking up Genesis and writing a new story under it may "solve" some problems, but replacing Genesis with a human story strips it of all authority. At least your story isn't quite as immoral as the original. In your story, the people at least get to vote on eating the fruit so at least the ones who voted "Yes" are guilty of rebellion. (But the "No" voters get punished too - mad morals again.) In Genesis, nobody in subsequent generations even gets to vote, yet they're punished anyway. Of course, in your story that's true for subsequent generations too. Bad morals there. Worse still, in Genesis (and I think in your story too, though you don't specify), the "rebellion" is to learn the difference between good and evil! (Genesis 2:16,17) Now compare either story to the null hypothesis: Several thousand years ago, a human (possibly named Adam) tried to figure out why a world supposedly run by a loving and all powerful God was filled with so much undeserved nastiness and decided to blame it all on a woman. That's a very simple story that answers all of the important questions. That great Christian philosopher, William of Ockham, could shave by it. By the way, did you know that collective punishments are outlawed by the Geneva convention? What does that say about God's morals, as depicted in Genesis?MatSpirit
February 11, 2016
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VJTorley,
OK. Here’s my question for you. At the moment of the Big Bang, when the universe was one and undivided, was it also indivisible?
Fascinating question, and worthy of a Greek philosopher as well. :-) -QQuerius
February 11, 2016
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36@ Andre "Intellectually Prof Moran is a big disappointment, I’m forever hoping he has something reasonable to say and then he deflates my hope." He is laughable. It is funny how highly Professor Moran rates his bilge. Mr Torley ripped LM's post to shreds but LM will probably appeal to the village Atheists.Jack Jones
February 11, 2016
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Larry Moran, "The point is that if you are going to use fine-tuning as support for your belief in gods then you’d better make sure your facts are correct." Dr. Moran, I really don't get this. If I hold to a belief in "gods" and am wrong, so what? What the heck difference does it make. Consider the case where there is "gods","gods" is actually one God, and he actually cares about what I believe. Now, if I don't believe, this may be a major crisis. 'Seems therefore, that clamouring to some hope based upon the speculation of a few scientists so that the "no gods" position can be maintained is truly the risky position. Therefore, sir, it is you who "better make sure your facts are correct."bFast
February 11, 2016
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MatSpirit
Given atoms and gravity, stars, galaxies and assorted rubble will appear through pretty well understood means. Life is a little more complicated.
I would add to VJT's points that the structure of the hydrogen bond (first element out of the big bang) from a random event being an exact force so that DNA can be easily transcribed and proteins be easily recycled seems hard to attribute to a random accident. Also atoms having so much flexibility to work together like transistors in a computer to create all the diversity in the universe including life. Attached is Yonkey's 1977 paper that backs up VJT's points. I propose that this paper when well understood makes the emergence of all new specie's difficult to describe with any cause involving a random search. I understand your hypothesis now, Thanks. I do, however, think it is very difficult to defend with scientific evidence at this point. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/0022-5193(77)90044-3bill cole
February 11, 2016
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Max Born: "Those who say that the study of science makes a man an atheist, must be rather silly people". An honest scientist, a real scientist that is, can never answer the question, is there God?, in the negative. Being an honest intelligent person means you either answer 'yes' (if you have personally experienced a meeting with God) or 'I don't know' (if you haven't yet). If these people want to live in their caricature 2D reality without a meaning or purpose, so be it. As St John of the Ladder said, pride of this calibre can be healed only by God Himself, not by a mortal or even by an Angel.EugeneS
February 11, 2016
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Interesting - Belief in all-knowing, punitive gods aided the growth of human societies, study says “Empirical evidence that supernatural beliefs promote cooperation is mounting, but has tended to rely on qualitative, society-level or proxy measures of beliefs,” Johnson wrote. “Study participants have also typically been university students in developed nations, thus omitting the small-scale societies most relevant to the evolutionary problem at hand: how human groups achieved cooperation and made the transition from small to large societies in the first place.” http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-gods-punishment-society-spread-20160210-story.htmlbuffalo
February 11, 2016
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MatSpirit: Compare that with Genesis's 4004 BC date for the creation of the world and Adam and Eve. Ignorant or lying. Neither one is a good thing.Mung
February 11, 2016
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Hi MatSpirit, Thank you for your post. Your response to my argument (iv) misses the point of the argument. All your argument establishes is that simple self-reproducers that replicate very quickly are likely to evolve somewhere in the universe. But that's not what my argument was about. It was about replication and translation systems ALL life on Earth today is dependent on such systems. Evolutionary biologist Eugene Koonin's argument here (which I discuss in detail here) shows that even in a toy model that "assumes a deliberately inflated rate of RNA production, the probability that a coupled translation-replication emerges by chance in a single O-region [i.e. an observable universe such as our own] is P < 10-1018." (And no, Koonin is not committing Hoyle's fallacy.) Faced with such astronomical odds, Koonin takes refuge in the multiverse - a move which won't work, for reasons I've explained here. Likewise, the fact that some proteins are short in no way undermines Dr. Douglas Axe's point that ALL life-forms today require at least some long-chain amino acid sequences, and that it isn't possible to find one which folds up in order to do a useful biological task (i.e. a protein rather than a mere polypeptide) via an unguided search process, even if you have billions of years to search for it. If you want to argue that long, long ago, life's proteins were very simple, that's fine. But you still have to explain how we got the long-chain proteins we find today which are ubiquitous in living things. I discuss these points at further length in my post, The dirty dozen: Twelve fallacies evolutionists make when arguing about the origin of life. Hope that helps.vjtorley
February 11, 2016
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@MatSpirit 24 The Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve are supernatural and fall outside of sciences own definition. Science cannot empirically rule these out. Science can say nothing about the supernatural except deny it. This paints one in a corner and for anyone to deny the possibility of something existing outside of the purview of methodological naturalism is irrational. When it is all said and done we are all faced with this choice: The God of creation or the god of BUC (blind unguided chance).buffalo
February 11, 2016
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Intellectually Prof Moran is a big disappointment, I'm forever hoping he has something reasonable to say and then he deflates my hope. I actually like him, narcissist and all.Andre
February 11, 2016
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VTJorley, A very good list of arguments!EugeneS
February 11, 2016
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MatSpirit @16 The earth may well be billions of years old however by the method of detection you prefer (science) then the fossils themselves throw up a serious question about the age of the fossil record. Do we bin forensic science so you may have your cock sure swagger? Not very scientific if I may say. If this was just a search for the truth then the best evidence (the fossils themselves) with our current level of observable scientific understanding should give you good reason to be more humble in your approach to the age of the fossil record and therefore your entire belief system. Luckily we all know that humility and truth searching are not the prime concern for IE proponents. Rhetoric and swagger are the means to an end.DillyGill
February 11, 2016
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bill cole, your response touches on VJT's point (iv) in Msg 10: "(iv) the fact that back-of-the-envelope calculations suggest that the emergence of a self-replicating translation system is a fantastically improbable event (Koonin), coupled with the fact that the only plausible non-theistic hypothesis attempting to explain this fact (i.e. the multiverse) fails, since it paradoxically entails that our own universe is probably a computer simulation created by aliens (Davies)" You're right that the Big Bang made the sub-atomic particles and those combined to make hydrogen, deuterium, helium and a little lithium. This process is believed to have happened in the first 20 minutes after the BB, after which things had cooled down too much to make more. This is pretty non controversial today and in fact the close agreement between calculations and observations of element abundances was a major factor in the acceptance of the Big Bang. Now as for how these particles were produced - the exact mechanism involved - that's for the high energy physicists to answer, but the fact is that if you concentrate a lot of energy into a minute space (and that's the Big Bang in spades), you will produce an array of sub atomic particles. That's what atom smashers do every day. Given atoms and gravity, stars, galaxies and assorted rubble will appear through pretty well understood means. Life is a little more complicated. First of all, when talking about FIRST life, forget about DNA, proteins, nucleic acids and possibly RNA and amino acids. You can also forget about "translations" (Whatever they are), systems and that von Neumann stuff KF goes on about. Those are all way too complex for FIRST life. When discussing FIRST life, think more of a short stringy polymer whose sole ability is to make copies of itself faster than the universe destroys it. Think short strings because long ones are too unlikely to form and polymers because they're simple (atoms strung together), easily changed, can embed useful information in their sequences and because that's what just about every molecule of every living thing is made of today. As an example of what I'm getting at, think of several differently colored pop beads plugged together to make a string of beads. If each bead could latch on to another bead of the same color when Brownian motion slams it into its side and each new bead connected to the beads in front of it and behind it, the original string would have copied itself as soon as the new one split off. This is what most scientists think of when they think "first life". Something very simple, probably a polymer and maybe inside a bubble of some kind. It might have been individual atoms strung together, it might have been small molecules such as amino acids. We don't have any fossils, so we don't know. Whatever it's made of, once you have one and it's copying itself faster than nature breaks it, you have the two things you need to start life rolling: (1) You have GAIN. If you put ONE of those self reproducers in an empty cup, along with whatever molecules they need to copy themselves, in a while you will have TWO of them! You have GAINED a molecule! In another while, both self reproducers will have copied themselves and now you will have FOUR molecules. Call that the First Law of Life: If you have a self reproducer and conditions are right, you will soon get more of them. They will make their numbers increase. (2) If one of the self reproducers changes and the change makes it copy itself faster, it's numbers will increase faster than the original reproducer. All of its descendants will carry the new, faster reproducing change. You will have two different species of self reproducers growing in your cup. They may exist in harmony or the new ones may replace the old ones someday. (3) If one of the self reproducers changes and the change makes it copy itself slower, it's numbers will increase, but more slowly than the originals. Its proportion of the population will decrease. Eventually it will probably gets crowded out and the new change that causes slower reproduction will dissappear with it And of course, if the change stops the new organism from reproducing at all, it will disappear and take the lethal change with it. The other 17 billion originals will carry on. This, of course, is ordinary Darwinian evolution. It's powered by life's ability to increase its numbers. (2) and (3) constitute Darwin's natural selection. They form a double ratchet that saves mutations that aid copying and get rid of mutations that hinder copying and they are powered by life's gain - it's ability to increase or decrease an organism's numbers. One of the biggest frustrations in beginning of life studies are the many people who hold up a modern organism, like an amoeba, and say, "Something this complex could never form spontaneously! Look at that DNA, those proteins, those enzymes, that multi layered cell wall!" They're right of course. Anything living today is the product of billions of years of evolution and has gained it's information the hard way, bit by bit over the aeons. The odds against somehow acquiring the information needed to make an amoeba over night are beyond astronomical. Instead, when it comes to FIRST life, think "simple molecule that does only one thing - makes copies of itself". It's two am. More on Koonen, the multiverse and Davies tomorrow.MatSpirit
February 11, 2016
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Hi MatSpirit, A quick response to your claim that "sections of the bible that are absolutely vital to Christianity have been shown to be wildly false" - for example, "there was no Garden of Eden, hence no Adam and Eve, hence no Original Sin, hence no reason for Jesus to die, hence no reason for Christianity." Even if we assumed that science has disproved the existence of Adam and Eve (which it hasn't yet - see here), it would still be possible to believe that the human race was descended from a tribe of individuals who appointed one man (Adam) as their leader, and who agreed to abide by his decision as to whether to accept or reject God's commands. That being the case, Adam's fall would have constituted the fall of the entire human race, and the Original Sin of Adam (and his assenting fellow humans) would have been passed on to all people of future generations: they suffered the terrible consequences of the human race's collective "no" to God. Let me be clear that I don't favor this scenario myself, but I think it's still a tenable option: I wouldn't rule it out as absolutely incompatible with Christian theology. I understand that the conservative Catholic theologian Germain Grisez proposed something like this view, several decades ago.vjtorley
February 10, 2016
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Hi MatSpirit, Thank you for your posts. I am entirely agreeable to your proposal. I just want you to know that I wasn't doing a Gish gallop. People often say that my responses are too lengthy, so I was trying to summarize, as briefly as possible, my multiple reasons for belief in God. Let's start with (i), as you proposed: my argument that since the universe is composite and internally complex, it must be contingent, requiring a cause to sustain it in being. Your reply, as I understand it, is that the complexity of the universe is merely apparent. At the moment of the Big Bang, the universe was compressed into a single point or a very tiny space, too small to be composite. Also, the four forces of Nature were unified at the very high temperatures that then obtained. OK. Here's my question for you. At the moment of the Big Bang, when the universe was one and undivided, was it also indivisible? If you answer "yes," then how do you account for the obvious fact that its unity was subsequently fractured, as four different force emerged and the point (or very tiny region) turned into space-time? That which is indivisible cannot divide, by definition. But if you answer "no," then you are conceding that the universe, even at the moment of the Big Bang, was capable of being divided. And if it was capable of being divided, then it must have already had parts, or some kind of internal structure. So it wasn't simple, after all. I might add that even cosmologists would allow that the universe, at the moment of the Big Bang, had multiple fundamental physical properties (temperature, entropy, energy density, etc.) If it had multiple fundamental properties, then once again, I put it to you that it wasn't absolutely simple. It may have been a lot simpler than it was now. But is was still composite to some degree, and therefore contingent, rendering its existence in need of an explanation.vjtorley
February 10, 2016
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