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Larry Moran Teaches Us Why We Should be Skeptical of Even Longstanding Orthodoxy

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Yesterday UD News reported on Kevin Laland’s comments about the controversies currently roiling in the materialist evolutionist community.  See The Royal Society Meeting: Keeping the lid on for now.  Larry Moran, prominent professor of biochemistry at the University of Toronto and inveterate defender of materialist evolution, dropped by and commented:

The problem with Kevin Laland and his colleagues is not that there’s no debate … it’s that there IS a furious debate and they’ve missed it entirely. The real ongoing debate is between adaptationists and those pluralists who accept Neutral Theory and the importance of random genetic drift.

Dr. Moran is certainly correct.  There is a furious debate between old-school “adaptationists” and those, like Moran, who reject the “gene-centric neo-darwinist paradigm.”  But my purpose in this post is not to take sides in that debate.  Instead, Moran’s observation put me in mind of a post I put up almost exactly two years ago:  Berlinski’s Question Remains Unanswered 

In a preceding post to that one I had asked evolutionists the following question:

I have a question for non-ID proponents only and it is very simple: Is there even one tenet of modern evolutionary theory that is universally agreed upon by the proponents of modern evolutionary theory?

I suspected that evolutionists would not be able to agree on any such tenant and sat back and waited for the responses to come in.  Responses did come in, and my suspicion was confirmed.  I reported on the conclusion of my little experiment as follows:

What I was really trying to get at was this: Is there any “core” proposition on which all proponents of modern evolutionary theory agree.  By “core” proposition, I do not mean basic facts of biology that pretty much everyone from YECs to Richard Dawkins agrees are true.  I mean a proposition upon which the theory stands or falls and [] sets it apart from other theories and accounts for its unique purported explanatory power.

I have in mind a proposition that would answer David Berlinski’s famous question:

“I disagree [with Paul R. Gross’ assertion] that Darwin’s theory is as “solid as any explanation in science.” Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?”

Indeed. What does modern evolutionary theory offer in comparison? How can the theory ever hope to be as “solid as any explanation in science” when its proponents cannot seem to agree on a single tenet, the falsification of which would, in Berlinski’s words, shatter the theory?

Dr. Moran’s comments today confirm that Berlinski is still waiting for an answer to his question.

Dr. Moran has also written:

The 1940s version of evolutionary theory (“Modern Synthesis”) is no longer sufficient to explain what we know in the 21st century. For many biologists, the most important extensions to evolutionary theory took place in the 1970s with the incorporation of Neutral Theory (actually Nearly-Neutral Theory) and recognition of the importance of random genetic drift, especially in molecular evolution. Most people also realized that there was more to macroevolution than just lots of microevolution.

This is, of course, a corollary to my conclusion.  When the new school, as represented by Moran, and the old school (which Moran often uses Richard Dawkins to exemplify) cannot even agree on the relative importance of Darwin’s proposed mechanism for evolution (i.e., natural selection), we can be sure there is no universally agreed upon tenant of materialist evolution.

All of which brings me to a series of questions for Dr. Moran:

  1. Will he admit that Berlinski’s question remains unanswered?

 

  1. For decades Darwinists such as Dawkins got red in the face, stamped their feet, and shouted that their adaptationist theory of evolution was not just a theory but a fact fact fact!  Will Moran admit that they were wrong wrong wrong?

 

  1. And if the adapationist view – which was a rigid monolithic orthodoxy for decades – turned out to be wrong, shouldn’t we be skeptical when someone else comes along with their pet theory, gets red in the face, stamps their feet and shouts that it is fact fact fact?

 

Comments
rvb8,
Now, it makes no odds if evolutionary biologists vehemently argue on the details, or even the fundamentals of evolution
Of course it doesn't. Because your commitment to the materialist evolutionary account has nothing to do with the details or even the fundamentals. Yours is a faith-based commitment that compels you to believe the materialist creation myth, even if the orthodox myth today is fundamentally different from the orthodox myth on offer yesterday. OK. We get it.Barry Arrington
May 11, 2017
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Barry, your word salad is just that, let me be as clear as I can. Finding supposed contradictory statements does not prove anything. Shall we wander through the Bible and systematically list all the contradictions, counter prophecies, unfulfilled predictions, nonsensical naturalist observations, (the Flood, and Pi spring to mind, not to mention floating persons). It is similar to the silly arguments against planet hunting: You know? Your POV, that God made the earth and the universe, and the entire universe is barren, because we're special.If scientists followed this criteria for investigation, there would be no science, merely self congratulatory religious boobs saying, 'I told you so!' Now, it makes no odds if evolutionary biologists vehemently argue on the details, or even the fundamentals of evolution, (the primacy of NS or not), the simple fact remains that these driven men, and women, simply won't stop Barry. They will go where the evidence drags them, despite your and DI's, and Religion's nay saying. It's the most important thing that draws me to these enlightened folk, thier insatiable curiosity, as upposed to your, and DI's, and Religion's, 'head in the sand' approach.rvb8
May 11, 2017
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Larry Moran is perhaps blithely unaware of the mathematical problems behind a system relying on Darwinian blind search... Thankfully, biology today is a cross-disciplinary field. Biology is no longer a property of complacent Victorian scientists theorizing in rocking chairs while holding a glass of wine in one hand and a cigar in the other. So any machination with decimal places orders of magnitude can be clearly seen by specialists across different fields. Haeckel drawings.. Spot on, Origenes.EugeneS
May 11, 2017
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Neither side can agree on which is the fundamental driver of evolution
You still seem more interested in scoring internet detate points than understanding what this debate actually is. Everyone agrees that, say, most of the DNA changes that occur in animal lineages are not the result of selection. So we can say drift (neutral evolution) is the fundamental driver of molecular evolution. On the other hand, no one disagrees that selection is the reason organisms fit their environment or that a large proportion of the protein coding genes found in all species are being conserved by natural selection. So, people that are only interested in those aspects of evolution will point to selection as a fundamental driver. This is really no debate about the importance of both of these forces (hyper-adaptationists are more likely to be popular writers like Dawkins, molecular biologists or evolutionary psychologist than evolutionary biologists these days). So the core evolutionary theory that you are searching for includes these forces of evolutionary change, even if particular evolutionary biologists may think one or the other is responsible for more of the traits we see in modern animals.
What exactly makes common descent a fact? What evidence elevated the case for common descent beyond any reasonable doubt?
There are many lines of evidence. Fossils, biogeography, the nested heirchahcy than can be made from morphological and biochemical traits and DNA evidence. It is the consilience of all these lines of evidence that makes common descent a scientific fact.wd400
May 11, 2017
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The one thing that both sides agree on is that common descent is a "fact". In post #39 I ask why this is the case. I would like to know. Larry, Richard and others, you know that I hate to be the person who throws gloom over social enjoyment, but it has to be said: there are some very very serious problems common descent. One tiny example:
Evolution expects the species to fall into a common descent pattern. Therefore a particular lineage should not have highly differentiated, unique and complex designs, when compared to neighboring species. But this has been increasingly found to be the case, so much so that this pattern now has its own name—lineage-specific biology. For example .... (more at dr. Hunter's website)
- - - mike1962 :)Origenes
May 11, 2017
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Continuing from #42 Said another way, it appears that in order to find any kind of core tenants on which all evolutionists can agree, you have to go so broad and uncontroversial that nearly everyone in the opposing camps (ID, creationists, etc.) also agree. So it can hardly be said that these are the core tenants of the evolutionists.Phinehas
May 11, 2017
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Bob OH:
I was responding to your quote, in particular “we can be sure there is no universally agreed upon tenant of materialist evolution.”. We both now agree that all sides agree that both drift and selection occur. This seems to me like this would be a universally agreed up on tenant of evolution.
Yes, but you've only managed to state biological facts that are so broad and benign that virtually everyone from YECs to Richard Dawkins believes they are uncontroversially true. It may be a universally agreed upon tenant of the kind of evolution that no one objects to, but what does that have to do with the kind of evolution that many (and ID in particular) argue against? That kind of evolution appears to remain with no such core for which there is any kind of broad agreement, which is what Barry asked for.Phinehas
May 11, 2017
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Origenes @35 :D +1000mike1962
May 11, 2017
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Recall that cartoon with two groups of equations scrawled on a chalkboard and between them is written “Then a miracle occurs.” Two professorial looking guys are examining this intricate formula. One points at what is written in the middle and says to the other “I think you should be more explicit here in step two.” Remember that? “Then a miracle occurs,” in terms of life's origin and evolution is the instantiation of the necessary biological information to direct the construction of the protein “machines” required for cellular metabolism and reproduction, and for the eventual construction of new tissue types required for visual and auditory systems in multicellular organisms, and much more – too much more to mention here. A massive quantity of functionally complex, digitally stored, extremely precise biological information was required in that first single-celled, reproducing life form, and much, much more new biological information was required in order to get from there to humanity. There is simply no plausible explanation for the instantiation of massive quantities of digitally stored, functionally complex, extremely precise information other than intelligent agency. Randomly selected letters of the alphabet occasionally producing two or three letter words does not mean Gone With the Wind could have been composed by randomly selecting letters of the alphabet. How did we end up with much, much more than Gone With the Wind written in the human genome mindlessly and accidentally? We didn't.harry
May 11, 2017
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WD400: So, evolutionary biologists can quite happily agree that evolution is a fact (modern creatures are related to ancient ones by common descent, and have arrived at their current traits by inheritance of ancient traits and modification over time)...
What exactly makes common descent a fact? What evidence elevated the case for common descent beyond any reasonable doubt?Origenes
May 11, 2017
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Bob O'H @ 37. Both sides agree that drift and natural selection occur. Neither side can agree on which is the fundamental driver of evolution. Yes, Bob, the data on the ground is the same for everyone. How that data is explained in a coherent theory is hotly disputed, which is my point. Your crowing leads me to believe you do not understand that point, because it should not cause crowing on your side.Barry Arrington
May 11, 2017
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Barry: 1. Will he admit that Berlinski’s question remains unanswered?”
Moran: Yes, of course I’ll admit that.
rvb8: I can answer the question for Mr Berlinski; ‘Yes!
rvb8, you and Larry are not on the same page. Funny that.Barry Arrington
May 11, 2017
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This seems to support the professor's persuasive point of view, doesn't it? Just out of the oven: https://www.evolutionnews.org/2017/05/molecular-machines-reach-perfection/ :)Dionisio
May 11, 2017
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I have an affiliation with both sides: I agree with adaptionists, like Dawkins, that drift is a terrible search engine. And I agree with neutralists, like Larry Moran, that selection elimination is a terrible hindrance to evolution.Origenes
May 11, 2017
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Bary @ 6 - sorry, i should have been less cryptic. I was responding to your quote, in particular "we can be sure there is no universally agreed upon tenant of materialist evolution.". We both now agree that all sides agree that both drift and selection occur. This seems to me like this would be a universally agreed up on tenant of evolution. Which is good news: we don't have to shout and snark at each other. We agree!Bob O'H
May 11, 2017
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RVB8, in order to try to sneer at the concept of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information, you had to provide a textual s-t-r-i-n-g that exemplifies the matter, and of why its only credible source -- on trillions of cases in point all around us -- is design. That irony seems lost on you and on those whose hyperskeptical dismissals you follow. I simply challenge you and those you enable to provide a counter-example to the trillions of cases I just adverted to, by giving us a clearly and actually observed case where blind chance and/or mechanical necessity as actually seen, gave rise to FSCO/I without intelligently directed configuration: ______. I predict, you and those you enable, predictably, will not be able to provide such a case in point. KF PS: Kindly note as well, this from Orgel all the way back to 1973:
living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . . [HT, Mung, fr. p. 190 & 196:] These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure.
[--> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant J S Wicken "wiring diagram" for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002, also cf here, here and here (with here on self-moved agents as designing causes).]
  One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [--> so if the q's to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions.  [--> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . . . Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes. [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189, p. 190, p. 196.]
PPS: Just as a footnote, your comment has 172 or so ASCII characters, at 7 bits or 128 states per character. Converting to bits, 1,204. This specifies a config space of 2.756 * 10^362 possibilities, well beyond 10^301 at the 1,000 bit upper threshold for FSCO/I. In effect if the atomic resources of our cosmos of about 10^80 atoms working at fast chem rxn rates were used and the scope of search in 10^17 s were viewed as a straw, the config space would be a haystack dwarfing our observed cosmos and the blind needle in haystack search implied would be negligibly different from no search. That is what you and those you follow are ducking and diverting attention from.kairosfocus
May 10, 2017
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Kairos, they say that if you repeat something loud enough, and as many times as possible, then it will eventually be accepted as truth. FSCO/I, has a hell of a long way to go.rvb8
May 10, 2017
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BA, Over at News' thread on the Royal Society meeting, I just commented as follows, for cause:
I have a fundamental problem trying to have a serious discussion with those whose first move is to try to dismiss, disqualify, denigrate, smear and even slander, which unfortunately, we can see all too plainly at the Sandwalk blog. In the above, News is patently right that “[w]hat the fossils told us in their own words is not the official history.” Given the extreme informational requisites of functionally specific, complex organisation as the fossils point to in their oh so many body plan level persistent gaps, we need to focus on the source of the required FSCO/I, and on the associated facts of implied vast configuration spaces and narrow, isolated islands of function in these spaces imposing beyond astronomical blind chance and/or mechanical necessity driven search challenges. Namely, that for cause, we know just one adequate source for such FSCO/I, intelligently directed configuration. AKA, design. Where also, in an information age, readily available facts open up the debate way beyond the closed shops of evolutionary materialist scientism dominated, forcibly taxpayer funded guilds in high positions. The real debate is on the streets, in the pubs and in the nooks and crannies of cyber space beyond where the guilds’ thought police can control. Such gestapo-ists of the mind need to understand that labelling is IDiots does not answer to the merits.
As Bob Marley used to sing, Who de cap fit, let 'im wear it. KFkairosfocus
May 10, 2017
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Barry, this is a classic tactic by deniars of evolutionary science; 1) Claim there is descension in the evolutionary biologist's ranks. 2) Extrapolate, that said descencion implies disagreement on fundamental concepts in Biology. 3) Produce psudo-expert (in this case Berlinski), asking oversimplified questions on topics of depth and complexity. In this case, the silly question is; 'Is there anything in evolutionary biology they can all agree upon?' 4) After slam dunk silly question, ignore respected evolutionary biologists when they come on the site and say; 'That's a really silly question, and has been answered.' I can answer the question for Mr Berlinski; 'Yes! Evolutionary biologists can all agree with Darwin's definition that evolution is, "Descent with modification!" Origenes, a debunked one hundred year old observation, (Haeckel got some things wrong), is just that a debunked one hundred year old argument.(Debunked BTW, by other real scientists.) Then again for an idea that is still trying to legitimise IC, SC, FSC, and Design Inferrance, I suppose old arguments are your staplervb8
May 10, 2017
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Seversky @25:
And I’d rather it was not like that distinctly unpleasant character in the OT.
By "OT" did you mean "Old Testament" of the Christian Bible? Who is that "distinctly unpleasant character"? Why didn't you write "And I’d rather it was not like that distinctly unpleasant character in the Bible."?Dionisio
May 10, 2017
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Larry Moran: Here's an item from Phys.Org about a study where they found that over time genetic diversity of "damaging mutations" decreased with time. This is not good for neutral theory. It surely indicates that mutations within the genome swirl around some kind of mean. It's not pure "drift." Selection is involved. So, yes, "selection and neutral theory" work together; however, together they eliminate damaging mutations, decreasing genetic diversity. Hence, the next needed genetic innovation is not just sitting there 'on the shelf.' Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.PaV
May 10, 2017
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Over at Sandwalk, Larry Moran, good Canadian that he is, slams adaptationists like Darwkins against the boards like he is playing smash mouth hockey. But this is what he looks like at UD when he is called out: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Slater_rolled_up_for_wiki.jpgBarry Arrington
May 10, 2017
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WD400 @ 21. You claims to understand the clash between Dawkins and Moran and to have even articulated it in t his thread. Nope. Here's a hint: http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2011/02/dawkins-darwin-drift-and-neutral-theory.htmlBarry Arrington
May 10, 2017
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ppolish @ 23
Larry, are you worried of an encounter with extra-terrestrials? ET’s who reveal proof the universe was designed for life yikes duh. “Darwin, seriously? Meep”.
I can't speak for Professor Moran but if the ETs could provide compelling evidence for a "designer" then I for one would be fascinated. I've got nothing against a designer, I'd just like to see some good evidence for one. And I'd rather it was not like that distinctly unpleasant character in the OT. Now, would you be worried by ETs who landed and announced that actually it was they who had set the ball rolling for life on Earth a little over 3 billion years ago? They just wanted to see what would happen and no god involved.Seversky
May 10, 2017
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#13 lolUpright BiPed
May 10, 2017
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Larry, are you worried of an encounter with extra-terrestrials? ET's who reveal proof the universe was designed for life yikes duh. "Darwin, seriously? Meep".ppolish
May 10, 2017
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Larry, what is the correct definition of "natural selection"?Origenes
May 10, 2017
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Do you?
Yes. I mean.. I just described it. And I'm an evolutionary biologist, so I might know a little bit about this.wd400
May 10, 2017
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Saw a very amusing cartoon the other day : that sequence of primates from hunched and almost knuckle-dragging to homo erectus. Only the fully evolved homo erectus was clearly a homo sapiens in modern clothing... kneeling at a prie-dieu. From the ridiculous to the sublime. Very funny. Perhaps you have to see the cartoon to fully appreciate how funny it was, though.Axel
May 10, 2017
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wd400 @ 15:
Do you understand what neutralist and adaptationists argue about?
Do you? Moran and Dawkins have a fundamental disagreement. Can you articulate the nature of that disagreement? BTW, don't try to convince us that they are arguing about nuance. Barry Arrington
May 10, 2017
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