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L&FP, 66: String — yes, s-t-r-i-n-g — data structures as key information storage arrays (thus the significance of DNA and mRNA)

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One of the more peculiar objections to the design inference is the strident, often repeated claim that the genetic code is not a code, and that DNA and mRNA are not storing algorithmic, coded information used in protein synthesis. These are tied to the string (yes, s-t-r-i-n-g) data structure, a key foundational array for information storage, transfer and application. So, it seems useful to address the string as a key first principles issue, with the onward point being that strings of course can and do store coded information.

Let us begin with, what a string — yes, s-t-r-i-n-g — is (though that should already be obvious from even the headline):

Wikipedia illustrates a string data structure

Geeks for Geeks: A string is a sequence of characters, often used to represent text. In programming, strings are a common data type and are used for a variety of tasks, such as representing names, addresses, and other types of information.

Wikipedia confesses: In computer programming, a string is traditionally a sequence of characters, either as a literal constant or as some kind of variable. The latter may allow its elements to be mutated and the length changed, or it may be fixed (after creation). A string is generally considered as a data type and is often implemented as an array data structure of bytes (or words) that stores a sequence of elements, typically characters, using some character encoding. String may also denote more general arrays or other sequence (or list) data types and structures . . . . A primary purpose of strings is to store human-readable text, like words and sentences. Strings are used to communicate information from a computer program to the user of the program. A program may also accept string input from its user. Further, strings may store data expressed as characters yet not intended for human reading . . . . Example strings and their purposes . . . Alphabetical data, like “AGATGCCGT” representing nucleic acid sequences of DNA . . .

So, it should not be surprising to see that DNA and RNA can store strings of information-bearing elements:

Where, of course, the genetic code is expressed in such strings. The (standard) code, mRNA form is:

The Genetic code uses three-letter codons to specify the sequence of AA’s in proteins, specifying start/stop, and using six bits per AA

For very simple example, HT Khan Academy:

The basic algorithmic process for protein synthesis [HT Khan, fair use edu]

Of course, the above is the mRNA form, which would be transcribed and edited to cut out introns, and it leaves out onward complexities. For example, we can see how Insulin has two strands of AA’s interconnected through di-sulphide bonds, making up a 51 AA protein:

The 51 aa, double chain protein, human insulin (fair use edu)

The end-product insulin protein is put together from the preproinsulin produced stepwise in the ribosome, by way of a clever alignment that uses a third, “scaffolding,” chain C sequence:

Assembling Insulin (fair use)

Using the code one could in principle back-translate to mRNA, however, in the DNA there are intervening Introns between the Exons expressed in the ribosome, so the human genome sequence is:

The underlying DNA sequence in the human genome (fair use)

So, as usual, we see how sophisticated life is at molecular level. That said, we also see that as a key stage of protein synthesis, as ribosomes, mRNA and tRNA interact (with a complex cast of supporting molecules) AA chains are assembled with start, elongate, stop, executing a code driven algorithm. Where, AmHD defines:

[Algorithm:] A finite set of unambiguous instructions that, given some set of initial conditions, can be performed in a prescribed sequence to achieve a certain goal and that has a recognizable set of end conditions.

Illustrating:

Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)

That should be enough to show the unbiased mind that coded algorithms are in the cell, and that DNA and mRNA act as string data structures. However, there are those who have proved resistant to such commonplace summaries or to citations from the sort of panels of experts who write major textbooks in biochemistry. For record, notwithstanding, here are Lehninger and heirs:

A page capture from Lehninger and heirs, Principles of Biochemistry, (fair use)

Lehninger and heirs go on to say, pp. 194 – 5:

Augmented citation from Lehninger and heirs, on mRNA in protein synthesis (fair use)

We may also now observe a Nobel Prize Laureate, Sydney Brenner, in his article, Life’s code script . . . yes, it’s that obvious, published in 2012 in the leading Science Journal, Nature:

[Brenner:] ” . . . The most interesting connection with biology, in my view, is in Turing’s most important paper: ‘On computable numbers with an application to the Entscheidungsproblem’5, published in 1936, when Turing was just 24.

Computable numbers are defined as those whose decimals are calculable by finite means. [–> that is, effectively, by algorithms] Turing introduced what became known as the Turing machine to formalize the computation. The abstract machine is provided with a tape [–> with marks on it], which it scans one square at a time, and it can write, erase or omit symbols. The scanner may alter its mechanical state, and it can ‘remember’ previously read symbols. Essentially, the system is a set of instructions written on the tape, which describes the machine. Turing also defined a universal Turing machine, which can carry out any computation for which an instruction set can be written — this is the origin of the digital computer. [–> there is also, a more powerful oracle machine, capable of one step decisions]

Turing’s ideas were carried further in the 1940s by mathematician and engineer John von Neumann, who conceived of a ‘constructor’ machine capable of assembling another according to a description. A universal constructor with its own description would build a machine like itself. To complete the task, the universal constructor needs to copy its description and insert the copy into the offspring machine. Von Neumann noted that if the copying machine made errors, these ‘mutations’ would provide inheritable changes in the progeny.

Arguably the best examples of Turing’s and von Neumann’s machines are to be found in biology. Nowhere else are there such complicated systems, in which every organism contains an internal description of itself. The concept of the gene as a symbolic representation of the organism — a code script — is a fundamental feature of the living world and must form the kernel of biological theory. [–> note, again, author, context and publisher]

Turing died in 1954, one year after the discovery of the double-helical structure of DNA by James Watson and Francis Crick, but before biology’s subsequent revolution. Neither he nor von Neumann had any direct effect on molecular biology, but their work allows us to discipline our thoughts about machines, both natural and artificial.

Turing invented the stored-program computer, and von Neumann showed that the description is separate from the universal constructor. [–> that ‘description’ of course is encoded] This is not trivial. Physicist Erwin Schrödinger confused the program and the constructor in his 1944 book What is Life?, in which he saw chromosomes as “architect’s plan and builder’s craft in one”. This is wrong. The code script contains only a description of the executive function, not the function itself.

That’s why Yockey adapted Shannon’s architectural diagram for communication systems:

Yockey’s analysis of protein synthesis as a code-based communication process

So, we may freely understand that DNA and associated molecules such as mRNA express string data structures, store coded biological information, that such information as used in protein synthesis expresses algorithms, and that therefore we are dealing with computation and associated computer language in the course of protein synthesis.

We may quote a Wiki confession:

[Wiki confesses:] Since 2001, 40 non-natural amino acids have been added into proteins by creating a unique codon (recoding) and a corresponding transfer-RNA:aminoacyl – tRNA-synthetase pair to encode it with diverse physicochemical and biological properties in order to be used as a tool to exploring protein structure and function or to create novel or enhanced proteins.[22][23]

H. Murakami and M. Sisido extended some codons to have four and five bases. Steven A. Benner [–>another guy] constructed a functional 65th (in vivo) codon.[24]

In 2015 N. Budisa, D. Söll and co-workers reported the full substitution of all 20,899 tryptophan residues (UGG codons) with unnatural thienopyrrole-alanine in the genetic code of the bacterium Escherichia coli.[25]

In 2016 the first stable semisynthetic organism was created. It was a (single cell) bacterium with two synthetic bases (called X and Y). The bases survived cell division.[26][27]

In 2017, researchers in South Korea reported that they had engineered a mouse with an extended genetic code that can produce proteins with unnatural amino acids.[28]

In May 2019, researchers reported the creation of a new “Syn61” strain of the bacterium Escherichia coli. This strain has a fully synthetic genome that is refactored (all overlaps expanded), recoded (removing the use of three out of 64 codons completely), and further modified to remove the now unnecessary tRNAs and release factors. It is fully viable and grows 1.6× slower than its wild-type counterpart “MDS42”

Indeed, the function of DNA as an information storage entity is so well established, that as Wiki also confesses, it has been adapted to general archival storage:

DNA digital data storage is the process of encoding and decoding binary data to and from synthesized strands of DNA.[1][2]

While DNA as a storage medium has enormous potential because of its high storage density, its practical use is currently severely limited because of its high cost and very slow read and write times.[3]

In June 2019, scientists reported that all 16 GB of text from Wikipedia’s English-language version had been encoded into synthetic DNA.[4] In 2021, scientists reported that a custom DNA data writer had been developed that was capable of writing data into DNA at 18 Mbps.[5]
Encoding methods

Countless methods for encoding data in DNA are possible. The optimal methods are those that make economical use of DNA and protect against errors.[6] If the message DNA is intended to be stored for a long period of time, for example, 1,000 years [–> a lot longer than most of our digital storage media will likely last], it is also helpful if the sequence is obviously artificial and the reading frame is easy to identify.[6]

CNet gives details:

the next storage technology might use an approach as old as life on earth: DNA. Startup Catalog announced Friday it’s crammed all of the text of Wikipedia’s English-language version onto the same genetic molecules our own bodies use.

It accomplished the feat with its first DNA writer, a machine that would fit easily in your house if you first got rid of your refrigerator, oven and some counter space. And although it’s not likely to push aside your phone’s flash memory chips anytime soon, the company believes it’s useful already to some customers who need to archive data.

DNA strands are tiny and tricky to manage, but the biological molecules can store other data than the genes that govern how a cell becomes a pea plant or chimpanzee. Catalog uses prefabricated synthetic DNA strands that are shorter than human DNA, but uses a lot more of them so it can store much more data.

Relying on DNA instead of the latest high-tech miniaturization might sound like a step backward. But DNA is compact, chemically stable — and given that it’s the foundation of the Earth’s biology, it’s arguably not as likely to become as obsolete as the spinning magnetized platters of hard drives or CDs that are disappearing today . . .

In short, they used a different encoding and have stored Wikipedia in DNA.

At this point, we need to ask, why is it that we have seen certain objectors from the penumbra of attack sites making strident, unyielding objections to understanding DNA and mRNA as string data structure information storage entities, part of a wider information processing, protein synthesis process in the cell?

The manifest answer is simple and sad: because such things point to design, which is being ideologically locked out at all costs.

So, it is time to recognise a key first fact about DNA and mRNA and let the chips lie where they fly. END

Comments
CR, refusal to acknowledge the evident and attempts to obfuscate functionally specific complex organisation and associated information underscore the unvelcome cogency of FSCO/I. KF
I'm confused. Are you saying we cannot make sense of out those characters in the context I provided? Or are we just somehow forced to consider it as being random? It seems that you're anti-design in this case. Are people not the best explanation? critical rationalist
CR, refusal to acknowledge the evident and attempts to obfuscate functionally specific complex organisation and associated information underscore the unvelcome cogency of FSCO/I. KF kairosfocus
5ovhea3tzari.udz n,dagk;kj
happens to reflect hitting keys on a QWERTY keyboard pressed without hitting the shift key. Again, it seems that a person would hit those keys given time, effort, etc as some kind of example of randomness. critical rationalist
Yes, KF. Some strings are well adapted to serve a purpose, while other are not. They can be distinguished in this fundamental way. Your point? Infinite monkeys would eventually reproduce Shakespeare because there would be an infinity of time. But this isn't applicable to ID, as evolution is only random to any particular problem to solve. And the genomes of living things do not contain explanatory concepts like love, loyalty, rivalry, refer to other intelligent agents. etc. Only people can create explanations. So, this simply is a flawed analogy. critical rationalist
CR, you know asasasas is a repettitive pattern, comparable to the repetitive unit cell order of a crystal explicable on mechanical necessity, which is of course not random. You know that random text of significant length 5ovhea3tzari.udz n,dagk;kj etc is overwhelmingly likely to be non functional gibberish without discernible overall pattern. You know functional text organised to communicate a message is distinct from both of these. That has long been documented, and the Wikipedia summary on Infinite Monkeys further tells us much by way of admission compelled by undeniable facts. So, you know that randomness, order and organisation can properly be distinguished. KF kairosfocus
CR, if you cannot distinguish asasasasas from this is organised text and you refuse to recognise the difference between hello world and the linux OS as a matter of scale, you have instantly lost on the merits as of fifty years ago when Orgel penned those words.
I recognize it as being a special case of being well adapted to serve a purpose. Also, asasasasa happens to fit the first two keys where we put our fingers on a keyboard when touch typing. So, this seems to be likely something a person generated to for the purpose of some kind of example. It's not random. critical rationalist
CR, if you cannot distinguish asasasasas from this is organised text and you refuse to recognise the difference between hello world and the linux OS as a matter of scale, you have instantly lost on the merits as of fifty years ago when Orgel penned those words. And frankly, I think you are putting up a hyperskeptical rhetorical pretence not to know, we both know better. That obstructionism tells us, backhanded concession on the merits. KF kairosfocus
‘Organized’systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems.
This still overlaps. Only organized systems are well adapted to serve a purpose. Strings that are random, in they merely have some order, are adapted, but not well adapted. If you can swap one string's content with the content of some other random string and it has no impact on how well it serves purpose of, say, being the recipe of a bacterium, then it wasn't well adapted to serve that purpose in the first place. Both strings are both equally poorly adapted at serving that purpose. Their ability to serve that purpose does not get any worse. However, if a string that is well adapted to serve the purpose of being the recipe for a bacterium, then you cannot replace it with just any other string. Right? You cannot change it without causing a significant reduction in its ability to serve that purpose. If you could, then it's unclear how the string was actually playing the role of the recipe of a bacterium in the first place. Again, a rock can be used to tell time by using it as a sun dial. But it's not well adapted to serve that purpose. You could replace it with some other rock, or even some non-rock, like a stick, tree, even a person. The knowledge of how to tell time is in us, not the rock. However, this is not the case with the watch. It is well adapted to serve the purpose of telling time. You cannot vary it significantly without a corresponding reduction in its ability to tell time. Well, you could use a broken or operational watch, if it large enough, as a sundial, to tell time. But, again, the knowledge of how to do that is, in this case, is in us, not the watch. critical rationalist
CR, First, real world things have to intervene, just back. I see:
if we replace one string with any other string, would that have no impact on the string serving the purpose of representing that information? Or will function will vanish? The entire argument how improbable it is that we would end up with a string that is well adapted to represent that information and result in that function. Other strings would not serve that purpose nearly as well. Right?
Obviously chance replacement of complex bit strings is likely to break function based on specific organisation, as we readily know from broken down machinery. Adaptation etc does not capture the specifically informational context on the table for fifty years now. K-complexity is an index of how much information, but of course the function is a matter of what is said in the description language statement E, which is normally quite sensitive to perturbation. Where, 367:
random strings have higher information content in terms of Kolmogorov-Chaitin complexity. So, it is more or less?
If one implicitly defines a random string as a single point target in a configuration space, of course it will have K-Complexity about equal to its length in bits, along with say bits to say print this following ______ END. In effect, lottery prize number. However, feed that into a 3-DP/C and the result for any string at least 500 - 1,000 bits will be gibberish. The information carrying capacity in bits is different from the specific functionality of the string. That functionality was well expressed by Wicken, 1979:
‘Organized’systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems. Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions and/or repetitive stepwise procedures] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [ --> originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and notes added. Nb: “originally” is added to highlight that for self-replicating systems, the blue print can be built-in.)]
This is actually the context of the abbreviation, FSCO/I. The blueprint or wiring diagram here is d(E).. Now, consider a string of 500 coins, to hold d(E). The configs from 000 . . . 0 to 111 . . . 1 have in them every possibility for 500 bits. So, all expressions in a description language will be there. However as that is 3.27*10^150, that is not practically searchable at blind strategies. This is why complex functionality is typically produced by intelligently directed configuration. In trillions of observed cases at or beyond this threshold, every time. This blind walk in a large search space approach then allows us to understand why that is. We are far beyond Paley and Cicero here. Where, well adapted just does not give enough to have these insights. For example, in the follow on thread, I take d(E) as expressing the cosmological physics of a cosmos and allow a random walk perturbation process. 3-DP/C then issues in effect virtual universes, and allows us to examine what results. As the fine tuning studies show, we are at a locally isolated functional point. Try perturbing d(E) for a fishing reel, or the like and we will soon enough see why islands of fine tuned function are real issues. And as Paley saw, adding self replication drastically compounds functional complexity. So, it reproduces does not escape the point. How do we get there. And more. KF kairosfocus
CR, adaptation to serve a purpose does not give a way to see information content
Information content is not well adapted to serve a purpose? Huh? Are you saying that information content is not well adapted? How would that work?
Then, inject random changes in d(E) and observable sensitivity to perturbation would be an index of functional specificity of organisation. As a simple case try text strings in English as d(E) and a noisy, lossy transmission medium, giving d*(E). 3-DP/C can put out text strings on d*(E) but soon enough function will vanish as d(E) becomes gibberish.
Again, if we replace one string with any other string, would that have no impact on the string serving the purpose of representing that information? Or will function will vanish? The entire argument how improbable it is that we would end up with a string that is well adapted to represent that information and result in that function. Other strings would not serve that purpose nearly as well. Right? The argument is, some designer must have "specified" them in that very specific way. So, no. You still haven't given an example of ID that falls outside Paley's criteria of being well adapted to serve a purpose. critical rationalist
CR, adaptation to serve a purpose does not give a way to see information content thence search challenge and why FSCO/I is a useful sign of design. I suggest you look at the 3-DP/C and K-Complexity where I = L[d(E)]. KF kairosfocus
living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . .
This is not a counter example. IOW, they are well adapted to serve a purpose. The relevance of what you started out with, what your intentions were, how you want it to be used, etc. is unclear. Either it fits in the circle / criteria of being "well adapted to serve a purpose" or it does not. Right? See #367.
On the other hand, crystals are not well adapted to serve a purpose. They form spontaneously and lack a recipe that describes it, is used to construct new instances of it, etc. Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . But, again, complex, random structures have a higher Kolmogorov-Chaitin complexity. They take more instructions to represent exactly. So, what gives? On the other hand, complex, random structures are not well adapted to serve a purpose. If truly random, in that you can replace them with some other random string in respect to some purpose, then you can vary them without a corresponding significant reduction in their ability to serve that purpose, Right? This fits the example of comparing a watch and a rock. The rock is not well adapted to serve the purpose of telling time. You can vary it significantly and it will play the role of a sundial just as well. In fact, you can replace it with something that is a non-rock, such as a stick, plant, etc. The knowledge of how to use a rock to tell time is in us, not the rock. This is in contrast to the case of the watch. You cannot vary it without reducing its ability to tell time. It’s a rare instantiation of matter. All of its parts play a hard to vary role in telling time.
IOW, it seems that your objection isn't the the shoe doesn't fit, but that it's not intentioned to be worn that way. It's unclear how that's relevant. critical rationalist
PS, Orgel:
living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . . [HT, Mung, fr. p. 190 & 196:] These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure.
[--> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant J S Wicken "wiring diagram" for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002, also cf here, -- here and -- here -- (with here on self-moved agents as designing causes).]
One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [--> so if the q's to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions.  [--> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . . . Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes [--> Orgel had high hopes for what Chem evo and body-plan evo could do by way of info generation beyond the FSCO/I threshold, 500 - 1,000 bits.] [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189, p. 190, p. 196.]
Where, K-Complexity is summarised by Wikipedia, as a first level point of reference that would have been immediately accessible all along:
In algorithmic information theory (a subfield of computer science and mathematics), the Kolmogorov complexity of an object, such as a piece of text, is the length of a shortest computer program (in a predetermined programming language) that produces the object as output. It is a measure of the computational resources needed to specify the object, and is also known as algorithmic complexity, Solomonoff–Kolmogorov–Chaitin complexity, program-size complexity, descriptive complexity, or algorithmic entropy. It is named after Andrey Kolmogorov, who first published on the subject in 1963 [1][2] and is a generalization of classical information theory. The notion of Kolmogorov complexity can be used to state and prove impossibility results akin to Cantor's diagonal argument, Gödel's incompleteness theorem, and Turing's halting problem. In particular, no program P computing a lower bound for each text's Kolmogorov complexity can return a value essentially larger than P's own length (see section § Chaitin's incompleteness theorem); hence no single program can compute the exact Kolmogorov complexity for infinitely many texts.
From this, it is but a short step to imagine a universal constructor device which, fed a compact description in a suitable language, will construct and present the object. Let us call this the universal 3-D printer/constructor, 3-DP/C. Thus, in principle, reduction of an organised entity to a description in a suitably compact language is formally equivalent in information terms to the object, once 3-DP/C is present as a conceptual entity. So, WLOG, reduction to compact description in a compact language d(E) is readily seen as identifying the information content of any given entity E. For, d(E) is a program though it can simply be a functional organisational specification, as, causally in this logic-model world: d(E) + 3-DP/C + n ==> E1, E2, . . . En. Obviously, n is an auxiliary instruction setting the number of copies to be made. I write ==> to imply a constructive causal process effected by a 3-DP/C. From this we may come back to Orgel and notice his summary:
These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure.
We thus have a formal framework to reduce any entity to a description d(E), which is informational and has as metric I = length[d(E)], where chain of Y/N q[s will yield I in bits, on the Kolmogorov assumption of compactness. I use compact, to imply that we can get a good enough estimator of I by using something compact. We do not have to actually build a most compact language. Then, inject random changes in d(E) and observable sensitivity to perturbation would be an index of functional specificity of organisation. As a simple case try text strings in English as d(E) and a noisy, lossy transmission medium, giving d*(E). 3-DP/C can put out text strings on d*(E) but soon enough function will vanish as d(E) becomes gibberish. d(E) --> lossy, noisy medium --> d*(E) + 3-DP/C + 1 ==> E*1 d*(E) --> LNM --> d**(E) + 3-DP/C + 1 ==> E**1 etc. After a few generations, gibberish predictably will destroy configuration based functional organisation, starting with text in English. And so forth. I trust this will help you understand what FSCO/I is about more clearly. kairosfocus
CR, above you tried to frame me as derivative from Paley, which would imply or at least invite that his remarks on the self replicating watch are a root source. This is not the case, period. Click on my handle [present in every comment I have made at UD] and you will see my actual root of thought, thermodynamics and related areas. Paley is a remote antecedent to modern design thought but so is Cicero [who I actually cite at the top of my online note]. What happened is in the course of debates I took time to look at Paley and was surprised to see his self replicating watch in Ch 2, and instantly connected this to von Neumann's kinematic self replicator. (In turn, note von Neumann propagated the dominant Computer Architecture a few years before, i.e. he thought in systems architecture terms.) My deeper antecedent is Hippocrates of Cos and reasoning on signs, one of the first approaches to inductive reasoning in our civilisation, antecedent to inference to the best explanation. On the wider framework, comparative difficulties analysis on factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power is pivotal. Thaxton et al in TMLO are in fact the key antecedents to modern design theory, with key injections from Hoyle et al on the cosmological side and from Denton on the Biological side. Dembski, Behe et al came along later. As for the design inference on FSCO/I as sign, the point you find it hard to accept despite repeated correction is that Kolmogorov-Chaitin complexity is a key concept, alluded to in Orgel's corpus by 1973. A chain of Y/N q's in a compact description language can give a reasonable index of complexity, thus configuration or state space, a cut down phase space [a key statistical thermodynamics and dynamics concept] as momentum is not relevant. Combinatorial, exponential growth is thus obvious. And this is anticipated in Orgel 1973 and in Wicken 1979, then built on in Thaxton et al 1984. This is how constructions like the slander pieces at Wikipedia are utterly wrong headed, they don't even get the basic time line right. From this, take the simple observation of configurational particularity with some tolerance to achieve function, and we see fine tuned islands of function in the configuration space. The implied idea in incrementalist trial and error is that there is a grand continent of fitness forming a vast landscape, which is empirically and conceptually ill founded. The search challenge vs sol system or observed cosmos scope resources comes to bear. And in fact on trillions of cases FSCO/I is a reliable sign of intelligently directed configuration as cause. In the focal case above, we are not even inferring information from organisation, but we are dealing with string data structure, symbolic, algorithmic code for assembling the AA chains for thousands of proteins at the heart of cell based life. So, it is not just FSCO/I but coded string data structure information, a linguistic phenomenon. It is manifest, that the best explanation for such is intelligently directed configuration by language using intelligence. Where, on Venter et al, a molecular nanotech lab is an obvious reference model. That is, cell based life is credibly designed but it does not in itself require design by God as such, not directly. Paley would not have known of this, and would not have known that much more would be required to infer God is the direct author of cell based life, on observable evidence. Inference to design is not inference to designer, something too many objectors have not been able to recognise, despite its being repeatedly pointed out. They have been tilting at strawmen. Notice, a very specific disagreement with Paley. Where things get interesting is, cosmological fine tuning. We are at a tiny operating point in configuration space for cosmological physics. That Op Point sets up the most abundant elements as H, He, O, C, with N, that gets us stars, the periodic table, Water, Organic Chemistry, Fats and Sugars, Proteins. That points to design towards cell based life. By extracosmic designer. Bring in ourselves as responsible, rational, morally governed creatures and we go further. That is, the best serious candidate root of reality is a necessary being, inherently good and utterly wise creator God, further understood as maximally great. But that is far afield of the design inference on empirically observable signs. Your alleged implications, built on a strawman caricature imposed over objection, fail. Your perceived contradictions are not there, save in your strawman caricatures. In the follow up thread, we can readily see where there are serious contradictions, in Popperian thought. Phil of Science has gone on a full generation or two since then. KF kairosfocus
CR, my discussion of the design inference is not founded on Paley or assumptions tied to him.
I’m not following you. The design inference does not fall under Paley’s perfected argument because you didn’t copy it? Or it wasn’t your intention to end up as Paley’s argument? Huh? How is that relevant? Do you think the Vienna Circle intended logical positivism to be self contradictory? Logical positivism is contradictory because, when we try to take it seriously, for the purpose of criticism, it rules itself out. Not because of what anyone intended or stated out with. Right? In the same sense, your intent or what you might have starred out with is not relevant. The design inference either reflects Paley’s argument (or an approximation of it) or it doesn’t. Right? This is why I keep asking you for that Venn diagram. Specifically, what part of the “design inference” circle would not also fit in the “well adapted to serve a purpose circle”. All you have to do is provide an example. If it’s not Paley’s argument, this should be easy-peasy, right? As for the rest, see above. Attempting to explain something being well adapted to serve a purpose with, well, being well adapted to serve a purpose is self contradictory. For example…
bearing reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration. Such is actually common sense…
If it’s reliable, then It has universal reach for anything that has, by that criterion, the appearance of design. Otherwise, why is a relatable sign of design? That you didn’t intend the design inference circle to overlap with the well adapted to serve a purpose circle is not relevant. Right? None of us can choose what our ideas imply. critical rationalist
CR, my discussion of the design inference is not founded on Paley or assumptions tied to him. I do acknowledge that he was historically antecedent to von Neumann in Ch 2, but that is more to say he was not properly responded to. As for your further proposing a loaded redefinition, no, the acceptance of multiple signs of design is fine, thank you, especially that functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information beyond a threshold is a reliable sign of design. As for your attempt to define ontology of all possible designers to manufacture an infinite regress, you have already been answered repeatedly on that. You give me no reason to believe further correction will be heeded, but for record, a contingent designer is a designer and often leaves signs of intelligently directed configuration in artifacts. As archaeologists say, natural vs archaeology [thousands of cases in point, immediately]. But intelligence and knowledge or skill to direct configuration is not dependent on contingent being ontological status, you are making a strawman caricature. There is a coherent concept, necessary being designer, one that is longstanding in our civilisation and many others. So, designers can responsibly be conceived as contingent or necessary being entities. The sense in which the past of origins we did not observe would resemble our observed past is that both are stages in which designers could or did act, and in acting could provide entities bearing reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration. Such is actually common sense so the objection is contrived and hyperskeptical, not substantial. Doubtless more and more can be spun but predictably they will be just as contrived, hyperskeptical, ineffective. KF kairosfocus
CR, this force, the base of say medical diagnosis:
TESTED, RELIABLE SIGN --> SIGNIFIED STATE OF AFFAIRS OR ENTITY e.g. under general conditions: smoke --> fire
Beyond that, there is excellent reason to reject the hyperskepticism that has been attached to empirically founded reasoning by support rather than assertion, entailment chain, conclusion. 99+ percent of practical reasoning is materially inductive and to cast a pall of hyperskeptical doubt is to try to discredit reasoning. KF PS, the design inference on reliable sign is not a contradictory claim. kairosfocus
Q, obviously, an empirical inference on tested, reliable sign speaks with immediate force.
Immediate force of what exactly? An universal explanation? Inductivism?
However, the upshot of all of this is plain, it is clear that cells have linguistic phenomena and this points to design, even as cosmological fine tuning [that sets the stage on which we find cell based life] also points to design.
If you're referring to inductivism, no one has formulated a principle of induction we can actual use to provided guidance, in practice. The future is unlike the past in a vast number of ways. And inductive argument in the case of ID is a variation of this, in that the unobserved distant past would resemble the observed past. See <a href="https://xkcd.com/1122/"this example from xkcd regarding electoral precedent. It beings with "No one has been elected president before." and ends with "No nominee with a first name that contains a "k" has lost. Both of those things had never been observed before. For example, every designer we have observed is a highly complicated, knowledge laden entry. So, someone could just as well argue that the distant past will resemble the past. But this is not my argument. My point is, you're implicitly assuming Paley's argument would be universal in that it's also applicable to whatever would have designed us. Being explanatory, it would have reach. Otherwise, it would be an approximation that would be incomplete. So, how do we know it's applicable to what designed us? At best, you'd have to make ID's designer more concrete by defining it as non-material. But that would be an artificially narrow application of Paley's argument. IOW, I'm suggesting ID is a special case of being well adapted to serve a purpose. It doesn't scale. But, by all means, see this diagram. What fits in the second circle that doesn't fit in the first? Give a specific example. I've only asked for this, what, at least three times? What gives? critical rationalist
ID being a contradiction does not require the lack of an end to determination.
This means exactly what I wrote. To rephrase, the ideas “Paley’s argument for design is contradictory” and “there is an end to determination” are not mutually exclusive. If you think this, then you seem to be confused about, well, how ID is contradictory. If you do not think this, it’s unclear how this is relevant to my criticism.
What rules out an ultimate designer?
Paiey’s argument. It has universal reach for anything that has the appearance of design. This is what I mean when I suggested Paley perfected the argument for design. However, in doing so, he ruled out an ultimate designer. While this is the opposite that Paley believed he had achieved, we cannot choose what our ideas imply. What do I mean by contradictory? Here's a few examples.... Empiricism is the idea that all knowledge comes to us from the senses. While this seemed like a good foundation roughly 100 years ago, when empiricism was conceived, it turns out that sense impressions are actually complex things that are themselves, well, not observed. Right? The idea that our senses relay accurate information to us depends on a long chain of hard to vary explanatory theories. IOW, this is what I mean when I say “observations are theory laden.” So, empiricism rules itself out by nature of being a contradiction. Logical positivism is the idea that only scientific statements are meaningful. It gained significant adoption until someone pointed out that logical positivism is, itself, not scientific, rending itself meaningless. Being a contradiction, this rules out Logical positivism. Now, back to Paley. From an earlier comment…
“The inference we think is inevitable, that the watch must have had a maker…There cannot be design without a designer; contrivance without a contriver; order without choice; arrangement without anything capable of arranging; subserviency and relation to a purpose without that which could intend a purpose; means suitable to an end…without the end ever having been contemplated or the means accommodated to it. Arrangement, disposition of parts, subserviency of means to an end, relation of instruments to a use imply the presence of intelligence and mind.”
However, if we substitute “ultimate designer” for “watch” in Paley’s argument, we force Paley to ‘the [inevitable] inference…that the ultimate designer must have had a maker’. As a contradiction, that argument for design rules itself out.
You wrote…
Am I supposed to conceive of the ultimate cause as a NON-being?
Knowledge grows via conjecture and criticism. So, we guess what people mean when they write x, then we attempt to correct errors in our ideas about what x means, etc. So, what you’re “supposed to do” is elaborate on how “there is an end to determination” is mutually exclusive with ID being contradictory, or explain how it’s reliant to that criticism. Are the ideas of “an ultimate cause” and “and end to determination” completely unrelated? Or perhaps you think ID isn’t based on Paley’s argument?
Where did we discuss the ultimate cause of everything?
When you referred to “an end to causation”?
Who is to say that there can be no more than one fundamental entity?
So, you meant to write “end(s) of causation” instead of “end of causation”? Given that ideas like "necessary being" seems like a solution in search of a problem, I guess this there could just as well be multiple necessary beings? critical rationalist
Q, obviously, an empirical inference on tested, reliable sign speaks with immediate force. In this case, per OP, it is the actual, Nobel Prize winning, empirically backed consensus that the cell has in it string data structure, symbolic, coded algorithmic information used to assemble AAs towards proteins. An objector, for months, has tried to suggest that this is our ignorance, and other objectors tip-toe around. Some have raised distractions. There may be somewhat to the suggestion it is anti-theism, not evidence and logic that drives some of the objections above, certainly Lewontin suggested that long ago now. However, the upshot of all of this is plain, it is clear that cells have linguistic phenomena and this points to design, even as cosmological fine tuning [that sets the stage on which we find cell based life] also points to design. KF kairosfocus
Origenes @432, Good points all. The problem is that “Critical Rationalist” has conflated the ID with theism, being unwilling or unable to define or distinguish the two in a mad rush to rule out an ultimate Designer. The subject of the OP is about data structures in comparison to the information stored in DNA and RNA, but CR seems to be obsessed with arguing about whether God exists or not. Personally, I wouldn't waste any more time on CR's side-track comments and obvious evasiveness. -Q Querius
CR I stand squarely with what I say here:
Ori: At some point, CR, there is an end to determination. Not everything can be determined by something else. It is not turtles (causes) all the way down.
This is based on general reflection. I argue that It cannot be the case that there is an infinite chain of causation. In my view, an infinite chain of causes is incoherent. Now, your response to this is completely bonkers. Let's read it together:
You seem to be confused.
I am confused because I consider a beginningless infinite chain of causes to be an incoherent concept. How can that be?
ID being a contradiction does not require the lack of an end to determination.
This sentence is bonkers. ID is a contradiction? What are you talking about? "does not require the lack of an end to determination"? My God, what is wrong with you? What do these tortured words even mean?
It just rules out an ultimate designer.
What rules out an ultimate designer? What could possibly rule out an ultimate designer? Again, what are you talking about?
Apparently you cannot conceive of a case where the ultimate cause of things is not a being?
I don't know how this connects with the previous. But what are you even asking here? Am I supposed to conceive of the ultimate cause as a NON-being?
Why is it that the ultimate cause of everything is actually a person?
Where did we discuss the ultimate cause of everything? Who is to say that there can be no more than one fundamental entity? Origenes
F/N: the evasiveness towards eminently quantifiable information is yet another back handed admission on the significance of FSCO/I as a sign of design. KF kairosfocus
Kairosfocus @427, Irrespective of the massive blah-blah you're receiving in response, "Critical Rationalist," has not been able to produce a coherent definition of ID. Thus, all the criticisms and unsupported assertions that we have to wade through boils down to meaningless rhetoric in light of this fundamental failure. Frankly, I don't think you'll receive anything more meaningful than a smokescreen of words. I'm not going to bother with further answers in light of a complete lack of meaningful communication. I see glaring shortfalls and objections in every unsupported assertion. For example, let's say we find a stack of three rocks or a bunch of rocks spelling out "Help me!" We'll have to endure endless speculations about how we don't know the identity of the person who stacked the rocks or spelled out the message, and therefore there must be some sort of infinite regress. Or maybe the rocks were OBVIOUSLY put in place randomly by the tide and so it's likely we'll eventually see the Tower of London or "Methinks it is like a weasel" from such random rocks over billions and billions of years. What a stupid waste of time! This is why I appreciate Dr. Tour's response of, "Okay, show me." -Q Querius
A designer is “adapted” by who? And whose purpose is fulfilled by that adaptation?
That would be ID’s designer. Who else? Apparently, this entire abstract designer thing is just for show? When we ask, where is the designer now, how does the designer work, where are the tools it used, etc. we get push back. So what’s with all the specifics now? Furthermore, this is an odd question because, according to ID, we appear to be well designed to serve multiple purposes. In fact, that’s supposedly the criteria for being designed. For example, we seem to be designed to reproduce biologically among many other things.
At some point, CR, there is an end to determination. Not everything can be determined by something else. It is not turtles (causes) all the way down.?
You seem to be confused. ID being a contradiction does not require the lack of an end to determination. It just rules out an ultimate designer. Apparently you cannot conceive of a case where the ultimate cause of things is not a being? Why is it that the ultimate cause of everything is actually a person? This question isn't new, so it's unclear why you did not incorporate it into your question.
So, I would suggest that, assuming that it is coherent to say that a designer is “adapted” and serves a “purpose”, that a designer adapts himself, and serves his own purpose by creating bacterium. IOW explanations start and end with the designer.?
We’re communicating with each other via a number of complex systems designed by human beings. Are you suggesting we’ve adapted ourselves to the purpose of designing those things on our own, completely independent of any purpose our designer would have had for us? Or, to rephrase, do you think we were not designed to design things? Somehow I don’t think this is actually your position. I know that you desperately want explanations to start & end with physical stuff, but you cannot rationally ground your intense desire. My criticism is that ID’s criteria for design is arbitrary narrow. It doesn’t scale. Being well adapted to serve a purpose does. It scales beyond the physical. From #347
…I pointed out that the means by which you might choose to represent the watch, in bits, would vary wildly depending on the particular digital format you choose to represent it. Right? For example, the very same watch could appear to have wildly more or less of the appearance of design depending on what format you happened to chose to represent it, digitally. If you store it as a 12K by 12K png, that would be vastly more bits than, say, parametric format. You’d have to somehow use the most efficient digital representation possible, and that format might not have even been invented yet. For example, someone just recently invented a way to reduce the size of a Neural Radiance Field by 100 times. As such, did a watch represented as an NRF suddenly just have much less of the appearance of design? And what about a description in a string of text? Words are shortcuts for ideas, which would represent other information in the receiver, etc. As such, it’s unclear how this could be accurately used, in practice, to identify how much a thing has the appearance of design. Being well adapted to serve a purpose does not have this problem, as it would be format independent and wouldn’t even require a digital representation at all. It simply scales in ways FSCO/I cannot.
Again, a watch is well adapted to the purpose of telling time. A rock is not, despite the fact that you can use it to tell time as a sundial. We are well adapted to use a rock to tell time, not the rock. I don’t even need to appeal to Auto CAD, etc. Perhaps this will clarify things for you? I know you desperately want Paley’s criteria for the appearance of design to start and end with physical stuff, but you cannot rationally ground you intense desire? Take memes, for example. Memes that are well adapted to replicate go viral, while other memes do not. Their content plays a causal role in whether they will be retained or not, when embedded in a storage medium. Can we replace one meme with another and get the same result, despite memes being non-material? There must be some crucial aspect of a meme that causes it to go viral. Otherwise, we could replace one meme with any other meme and get the same result. But this doesn’t seem to the case. Right? This is despite the fact that being non-material, memes are instantiated in brains, books, hard drives, etc. So what the heck is going on here? Here’s a thought experiment. Could there be some kind of non-material Internet in some non-material realm, where some non-material memes go viral, but not others, when shard by some non-material beings? How do they get copied from one non-material being to another? The very idea of sharing between them seems to be incoherent, as the copyablility of information has very specific physical requirements in respect to possible and impossible physical laws. But there are no physical laws. How could memes play a causal role in being retained in, well, what exactly, so some memes are retained but others are not? The very idea of being retained at all seems, well highly problematic. Are they retained in some non-material beings, but not others, until the ones that go viral get copied? If so, how and where? At a minimum it seems there must be some kind of non-material “laws” that must be possible for non-material memes to get copied, that plays the same role. Otherwise, it’s unclear what would prevent every non-material being from knowing about every meme when created. Or even what it means to say a meme was created by any particular non-material being. etc. Everything could be defined by fiat, but in a very specific fiat that reflected non-material “laws” playing the same roles as our physical laws. Otherwise, why would some memes go viral in this non-material realm, but others would not, just as some memes go viral in our material realm, but others would not? Again, being well adapted to serve a purpose scales. critical rationalist
F/N: CR has already been answered as to how a compact description language can give a measure of FSCO/I in cases where it is implicit. But that is not convenient rhetorically so the now habitual doubling down is seen. KF kairosfocus
CR, we may not know everything about a designer, especially a contingent being designer, but one thing we do know. Namely, the self moved rational creative being cannot be reduced to inherently non rational, dynamic-stochastic, GIGO driven computation on a substrate. For, just to reason, we need responsible freedom or else the self referentiality of our utterances will lead to self discredit. Rational action rests on freedom to infer and judge i/l/o sound first principles of right reason. And again, ever more tangents pulling away from the focus of the OP, that in the cell -- despite objections -- we find symbolic, algorithmic code, a key sign of design. We can take the tangential responses as backhanded concession of the decisive point, backed by utter unwillingness to go there. KF PS, how long and hard you labour to deflect the force of a conclusion driven by trillions of cases in point and high reliability, there are signs of design that let us know entities were designed. kairosfocus
CR @
So, it’s well adapted for the purpose of designing bacterium.
A designer is "adapted" by who? And whose purpose is fulfilled by that adaptation? At some point, CR, there is an end to determination. Not everything can be determined by something else. It is not turtles (causes) all the way down. So, I would suggest that, assuming that it is coherent to say that a designer is "adapted" and serves a "purpose", that a designer adapts himself, and serves his own purpose by creating bacterium. IOW explanations start and end with the designer. I know that you desperately want explanations to start & end with physical stuff, but you cannot rationally ground your intense desire. Origenes
Consciousness, the free rational person, the intelligent designer, cannot be explained by mindless physical stuff.
Already addressed. "We don't know all the details" seems like a reasonable response. Otherwise, we've decided to arbitrarily abandon explanations.
Truth. CR’s insistence that the designer of the watch must itself be designed by some A, which, in turn, no doubt, must be designed by a B, and so on, only stops when we arrive at matter.
First, for the sake of argument, let's assume that is true for a moment. So, the theory of ID is that all life on earth was designed by some immaterial designer? And that designer is a mind that exists in some inexplicable realm, which operates by some inexplicable means and methods and is driven by some inexplicable motives? When should I expect the supposedly scientific theory of ID to be update to match this? I won't be holding my breath. Second, information can be brought into fundamental physics via constructor theory. Specifically, we can reformulate the theory of information into constructor theoretic terms of what physical transformations must be possible, which physical transformations be impossible and why. This includes which transformations of matter are necessary for copying information, the interoperability principle of information, etc. All of these aspects have physical requirements. If that information is instanced was in a designer and was coped into bacterium, then was that information not instantiated if not in some physical system? Seems fine if you're one of the few ID proponents who think the designer was aliens. The rest, no so much. Third, let's ignore this for the moment. You still haven't address my question.
After all, human beings are conscious, and according to you, consciousness is fundamental. So, why can’t we currently be swapped out with ID’s designer and get bacterium? What is it that makes the the crucial difference in designers?
If there is a crucial difference, then ID's designer is well adapted to design organism. This is why I pointed out FSCO/I's scalability problem earlier..
... I pointed out that the means by which you might choose to represent the watch, in bits, would vary wildly depending on the particular digital format you choose to represent it. Right? For example, the very same watch could appear to have wildly more or less of the appearance of design depending on what format you happened to chose to represent it, digitally. If you store it as a 12K by 12K png, that would be vastly more bits than, say, parametric format. You’d have to somehow use the most efficient digital representation possible, and that format might not have even been invented yet. For example, someone just recently invented a way to reduce the size of a Neural Radiance Field by 100 times. As such, did a watch represented as an NRF suddenly just have much less of the appearance of design? And what about a description in a string of text? Words are shortcuts for ideas, which would represent other information in the receiver, etc. As such, it’s unclear how this could be accurately used, in practice, to identify how much a thing has the appearance of design. Being well adapted to serve a purpose does not have this problem, as it would be format independent and wouldn’t even require a digital representation at all. It simply scales in ways FSCO/I cannot. Again, a watch is well adapted to the purpose of telling time. A rock is not, despite the fact that you can use it to tell time as a sundial. We are well adapted to use a rock to tell time, not the rock. I don’t even need to appeal to Auto CAD, etc.
To say there is no crucial "difference" between designers, which plays a hard to vary difference in the outcomes, yet we would end up with radically different outcomes, consistently, appears to be a contradiction. There must be some other crucial difference, other than consciousness is fundamental, as we are all conscious. I'm conscious. So, why can't I create universes, bacterium, etc? IOW, I'm suggesting ID is using a rather arbitrarily narrow conception of Paley's criterial for the appearance of design, that doesn't scale. And that is, well, by design. critical rationalist
CR, how you love loaded terms. By obvious definition, a successful designer is CAPABLE of carrying out said design. Reginald Mitchell, having designed a series of racers, used knowledge and experience based skills to design the Spitfire, in two bites. A first, gull winged try was unimpressive. A drastic revision, with elliptical wings, was a breakthrough. Long before, dragonflies were subtle, powerful designs. There is no need for infinite regresses, as the point is that for many designs we find empirical signs that reliably indicate design. This frees us from needing to directly observe the design and development to credibly know something was designed. Further, contingent designers design. And there is reason to take as serious candidate designers, serious candidate necessary beings. Such a designer would be ultimate. The focus is, capability. KF kairosfocus
… that will not change the point that the relevant information, knowledge, design decisions, system architecture etc would have been in the intelligence of the designer before it would be put on the ground.
So, the designer is well adapted for the purpose of designing bacterium. You cannot change it significantly without a corresponding significant reduction in its ability to design bacterium. It has the appearance of design.
A designer with intelligence and knowledge to write the code for thousands of proteins required for a bacterium, and to set up a self replicating architecture, is obviously quite capable.
So, it's well adapted for the purpose of designing bacterium. critical rationalist
Origenes, reduction of rational, intuitive, imaginative and creative thought to computation on a substrate fails. Not least, as computation is inherently non rational, it is an action of dynamic-stochastic process limited by GIGO, where errors of architecture and of programming or patching will be blindly carried forward. Witness, the Pentium bug and others. KF PS, Wikipedia has been shown the thumb screws again:
Consciousness, at its simplest, is sentience and awareness of internal and external existence.[1] However, its nature has led to millennia of analyses, explanations and debates by philosophers, theologians, linguists, and scientists. Opinions differ about what exactly needs to be studied or even considered consciousness. In some explanations, it is synonymous with the mind, and at other times, an aspect of mind. In the past, it was one's "inner life", the world of introspection, of private thought, imagination and volition.[2] Today, it often includes any kind of cognition, experience, feeling or perception. It may be awareness, awareness of awareness, or self-awareness either continuously changing or not.[3][4] The disparate range of research, notions and speculations raises a curiosity about whether the right questions are being asked.[5] Examples of the range of descriptions, definitions or explanations are: simple wakefulness, one's sense of selfhood or soul explored by "looking within"; being a metaphorical "stream" of contents, or being a mental state, mental event or mental process of the brain . . . . Western philosophers since the time of Descartes and Locke have struggled to comprehend the nature of consciousness and how it fits into a larger picture of the world. These questions remain central to both continental and analytic philosophy, in phenomenology and the philosophy of mind, respectively. Consciousness has also become a significant topic of interdisciplinary research in cognitive science, involving fields such as psychology, linguistics, anthropology,[6] neuropsychology and neuroscience. The primary focus is on understanding what it means biologically and psychologically for information to be present in consciousness—that is, on determining the neural and psychological correlates of consciousness. In medicine, consciousness is assessed by observing a patient's arousal and responsiveness, and can be seen as a continuum of states ranging from full alertness and comprehension, through disorientation, delirium, loss of meaningful communication, and finally loss of movement in response to painful stimuli.[7] Issues of practical concern include how the presence of consciousness can be assessed in severely ill, comatose, or anesthetized people, and how to treat conditions in which consciousness is impaired or disrupted.[8] The degree of consciousness is measured by standardized behavior observation scales such as the Glasgow Coma Scale.
We can start from there but that is an onward, separate matter. The point for this thread is, that we can observe in the cell symbolic, coded, algorithmic information, strong signs of design. kairosfocus
CR, why not do an in page search for say, "in the intelligence"? You will find for example 302:
As for designing a bacterium, I suggest, start with Venter et al and go on from there to more advanced technology, that will not change the point that the relevant information, knowledge, design decisions, system architecture etc would have been in the intelligence of the designer before it would be put on the ground. Which is actually pretty much basic common sense.
This, you cited in 347, so you should have noted the force of the point long since. And more, but that is enough to make the point. A designer with intelligence and knowledge to write the code for thousands of proteins required for a bacterium, and to set up a self replicating architecture, is obviously quite capable. The notion that such wrote itself incrementally by trial and error and differential reproductive success, does not even pass the giggle test, once one recognises how complex a challenge is involved. KF kairosfocus
KF @416
… the underlying incoherence is dismissiveness to the observed and/or experienced. Once self evident first truths are denied, chaos is let loose. KF
Consciousness, the free rational person, the intelligent designer, cannot be explained by mindless physical stuff. If we are not self-moved, if blind particles in the void are behind the steering wheel of rationality, then nothing makes sense. As you wrote:
Designers are intelligent, self moved agents able to carry out purposeful contrivance or configuration, the ART-ifacts so created are different in kind, not degree. KF
Truth. CR’s insistence that the designer of the watch must itself be designed by some A, which, in turn, no doubt, must be designed by a B, and so on, only stops when we arrive at matter. Only when we arrive at physical stuff CR will stop asking for an explanation. So, his unsupported (and self-defeating) assumption that everything is physical is what is driving his ‘rational’ inquiry. - - - edit #419 ! Hear! Hear! Origenes
CR, the FIRST -- branch on which we all sit [so of first principle character] -- fact of experience is self awareness, a key aspect of consciousness. There is no need to play hyperskeptical games with it, it is undeniable and self evidently real. It is through self awareness that we experience other things and reflect on them. KF kairosfocus
@KF
Drumbeat repetition of an answered assertion, pretending that it was not answered repeatedly.
Ok, then which comment(s)? Please quote from them, etc. critical rationalist
If consciousness is fundamental and cannot be explained by something else, then this is where we must base our explanations of things on.
That's great, assuming we actually knew this to be true. But this reflects arbitrarily deciding when to stop looking for explanations. Even if there were a finite number of explanations, we might not even be close to reaching the end. So, why should we stop looking there, instead of somewhere else? We don't know is a perfectly good response. Not to mention, that the idea that consciousness is fundamental depends on things like specific interpretations of quantum theory. Other interpretations, make the same predictions, yet do not suggest consciousness is fundamental. Both of those interpretations make the very same predictions. They do not compete with quantum theory. Why stop there, in particular, instead of somewhere else? What ever reason could you have?
If consciousness is a fundamental entity as a brute fact, then reality is what it is. Deal with it, because reality does not comply with your epistemological preferences.
My epistemological preference for explanations doesn't make that brute fact any less of an a non-explanation, which would push the problem up a level without improving, it from an explanatory perspective. For example, saying quantum theory is fundamental doesn't exclude there being more fundamental theories that underlie it, etc. What you mean by fundamental is to effectively decide to abandon explanations. Let's not pretend they are the same thing. That preference, by the way, is baed on an explanation for the relatively recent growth of knowledge. Good explanations are what make the crucial difference. It's unclear how "an inexplicable mind that exists in an inexplicable realm, that operates via inexplicable means and methods, driven by inexplicable motivations" reflects a good explanation. Also, I'm still waiting for where this assumption is spelled out in the supposedly scientific theory of ID. But again, you've ignored my second question, which accepts this for the purpose of argument.
Even if we were to to accept this, merely for the purpose of argument, I asked about swapping the designer that supposedly designed bacterium with some other designer – whom’s conscious experience would also supposedly “couldn’t be reduced non-conscious events”, or whatever you want to propose about designers, etc.
Assuming this brute facts being equal among them, we still cannot just swap out a current human designer for ID's designer and still get bacterium. Right? Why not? After all, there are crucial differences been a watch and a rock, right? And there are crucial difference between strings as KF has indicated. After all, human beings are conscious, and according to you, consciousness is fundamental. So, why can't we currently be swapped out with ID's designer and get bacterium? What is it that makes the the crucial difference in designers? critical rationalist
Origenes, the underlying incoherence is dismissiveness to the observed and/or experienced. Once self evident first truths are denied, chaos is let loose. KF kairosfocus
I wrote…
If the recipe for a bacterium is one of these entities that exhibit reliable signs of design, and a designer put that recipe into bacterium when it designed them, then where was that recipe before it ended up in bacterium? Where was it instantiated, at the outset?
Apparently, no one here wants to touch this question with a 10 foot pole. Not even a response to indicate why it’s not relevant to taking ID seriously. Would that not be a consequence of ID being true, given that a bacterium are von-Neumann replicators? If not, why? What gives? [ANS: Drumbeat repetition of an answered assertion, pretending that it was not answered repeatedly. As soon as it was raised, it was answered on the obvious, readily observed and experienced facts. A design is in the intelligence of the designer before it is put on the ground, just ask a patent or copyright office -- that is how intellectual property is created. Glorified common sense. I am forced to take a drastic step, answering by adding an edit to your objection, in hope that at last you will pay heed and will refrain from such stunts in future. KF, thread owner.] critical rationalist
CR, do you understand what you clipped? Notice, ". . . A class of machine we have analysed since 1948, buthave yet to actually create, much less, using molecular nanotech at micron scale," which is miles different from your suggestion that I said we cannot create a vNSR. Perhaps, you were not noticing when I suggested many times over years that we likely will create de novo life within this century. As for self referentiality, almost any key question is self referential, but that does not make such question begging or incoherent. Apparently you are immune to empirical evidence, where we OBSERVE designers, many human, others like beavers and dams adapted to circumstances. I stand by the observable distinction between CR and his objections, Mitchell et al and the Spitfire, Pyramid builders and pyramids, Euclid and his Elements. Designers are intelligent, self moved agents able to carry out purposeful contrivance or configuration, the ART-ifacts so created are different in kind, not degree. Intelligence generally refers to "the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly" [Webster's]. We are contingent beings so cannot exhaust the category, and there are serious candidate necessary beings capable of design. As for pretences about FSCO/I, the 500 - 1,000 bit threshold has to do with configuration spaces too big for sol system or observed cosmos resources to more than negligibly sample. We could go on and on and on, tangent after tangent, obfuscation after obfuscation, but it would predictably be of no avail, this is enough to show why. Meanwhile, the force of the point in the OP stands: there is code, there are algorithms, so, too, linguistic phenomena, in the cell. You would be well advised to change your epistemological approach. KF kairosfocus
CR @405
First, if conciseness cannot be explained, then it’s unclear how this reflects any more of an explanation for the knowledge in living things.
If consciousness is fundamental and cannot be explained by something else, then this is where we must base our explanations of things on. As I said before, it cannot be the case that everything has a more fundamental explanation. Turtles (fundamental explanations) all the way down is incoherent.
You have an inexplicable mind that exists in an inexplicable realm, that operates via inexplicable means and methods and is driven by inexplicable motivations. It’s unclear how appealing to it actually adds to the explanation.
If consciousness is a fundamental entity as a brute fact, then reality is what it is. Deal with it, because reality does not comply with your epistemological preferences. The good news is that you are also conscious, so you may very well come to know it intimately. Origenes
AF, sadly predictable. I suggest that the serious minded onlooker consults the likes of Habermas on that topic, probably the first written record of the church's official summary, which names or identifies some 20 of the 500 and (this being a decade before Nero's persecution) invites people to speak with the then living majority. As for "ambiguous," that is laughably off base. But then, AF, you are the objector who set out to assert away the Nobel Prize winning, evidence based scientific consensus that there is coded algorithmic information in DNA. That alone suffices to establish your negative credibility driven by ideology. Tangent fails. KF kairosfocus
CR, you keep twisting things and trying more tangents.
First, my core criticism has been consistent. Nor does it reflect tangents. Clarifications are not new and pointing out how ID would reflect a contradiction is not “twisting things.”
Nowhere have I said we cannot design a vNSR, just we have not yet done so
Now who’s twisting things? You wrote…
JVL, self replicating, von Neumann, kinematic self replicator context. A class of machine we have analysed since 1948, but have yet to actually create, much less, using molecular nanotech at micron scale. KF
I clarified this when I wrote…
IOW, Currently, human designers could not be swapped with the supposed designer of bacterium. We have yet to create the necessary knowledge. (It’s a question of knowledge, not desire.) So, if we were put in ID’s designer’s place, the result would be, well, the lack of bacterium. Right? So, no, not just any designer would do. We are not well adapted for the purpose of designing bacterium, while ID’s designer supposedly is.
So, this objection has already been addressed. Again, If you replace id’s designer of bacterium with a human being, today, will you get a bacterium? If you can replace one string with another, without reducing its ability to serve a purpose, then that string is not well adapted to serve that purpose. It’s like using a rock to tell time. You can replace it with some other rock, or even a non-rock, like a stick, tree, etc. They also serve the purpose of telling time just as well. The knowledge of how to use a rock as a sun dial is in us, not the rock. This is unlike a watch, which is well adapted to serve a purpose. Right? IOW, do you have some criticism of this? You have not address this beyond saying it’s vague, without elaborating on how and why. You wrote….
As for the difference between a designer and a watch, it is much the same as that between said designer and the objecting text he composes.
Great, but again, how is that relevant to Paley’s criteria for the appearance of design? How does that difference exclude it from being applicable to IDs designer as well?
There are things you cannot not know, like that and playing rhetorical games like that will simply confirm you as lacking in seriousness.
Apparently, I cannot know it does or does not apply to designers? It’s unclear how this does not reflect special pleading.
Go get a dictionary and look up key words. Even something as humble as Wikipedia would help if you genuinely do not know what intelligence is or designers are and the substantial difference between a designer and the result of her design. Go try that stunt at the Patents Office and see how far it gets you, or a plagiarism review panel.
See above. Again, the question is relevance, not if there is a difference. Now who’s not being serious? if you think ID’s designer is God, then you might think Paley’s criteria would not apply. But, that’s creationism, not ID. Right? And, even then, it’s unclear how God works in any meaningful sense of the word,. God is some inexplicable mind in some inexplicable realm, etc. How does that add to the explanation of that knowledge?
As for nonsense strawman redefinitions of ID, they are running away from the focal issue, observable, reliable signs of design manifested by entities.
See above. I’m still waiting for that Venn diagram that shows how being well adapted to serve a purpose does not overlap some yet to be provided example from ID, such as the algorithms and information you referenced in this post. Again,, I’m merely trying to take the claims of ID seriously, as if it’s true in reality and that all observations should conform to it. Am I not supposed to take ID seriously? If the recipe for a bacterium is one of these entities that exhibit reliable signs of design, and a designer put that recipe into bacterium when it designed them, then where was that recipe before it ended up in bacterium? Where was it instantiated, at the outset? If it just appeared spontaneously when the first bacterium appeared, wouldn’t that be the spontaneous appearance of that recipe? At which point, in what way does it make sense to say ID’s designer designed bacterium? Again, if you think ID’s designer is God, then God would have been the origin of that knowledge. But, now you’ve hopped the fence and are clearly in creationist territory again. IOW, all these objections to applying Paley’s criteria to ID’s designer seem to implicitly concede that ID’s designer is actually God, not, say, aliens. Or they make a bunch of assumptions about designers, such as intelligent agents can be completely immaterial beings, observers cause collapse in quantum mechanics, etc. But ID is supposedly agnostic about designers. To rule out designers being subject to Paley’s criteria, you’d have to at least expand ID to include what ID’s designer is not, such as not being subject to Paley’s criteria. Of course, making this explicit would be problematic at multiple levels. It would codify the very problem I’m referring to. If we assume the distant past will resemble the past, the we could ”induce” that ID’s designer would be like us, as we are the only designers we’ve observed. And we exhibit the appearance of design. This is why we cannot actually use induction. No one has formulated a principle of induction that actually can provide guidance, in practice. You’ve merely arbitrarily “induced” one part the past that the distant past would resemble, while not “inducing” the others. critical rationalist
...the 500 witnesses to Jesus’ resurrection.
One isolated claim, ambiguously worded, that refers to a round number of unnamed people? And what has this to do with "Intelligent Design"? I thought ID was a scientific approach that will one day supplant evolution as an explanation for common descent etc. Alan Fox
...the 500 witnesses to Jesus’ resurrection.
One isolated claim, ambiguously worded, that refers to a round number of unnamed people? And what has this to do with "Intelligent Design"? I thought ID was a scientific approach that will one day supplant evolution as an explanation for common descent etc. Alan Fox
...the 500 witnesses to Jesus’ resurrection.
One isolated claim, ambiguously worded, that refers to a round number of unnamed people? And what has this to do with "Intelligent Design"? I thought ID was a scientific approach that will one day supplant evolution as an explanation for common descent etc. Alan Fox
...the 500 witnesses to Jesus’ resurrection.
One isolated claim, ambiguously worded, that refers to a round number of unnamed people? And what has this to do with "Intelligent Design"? I thought ID was a scientific approach that will one day supplant evolution as an expkanation for common descent etc. Alan Fox
CR, you keep twisting things and trying more tangents. Nowhere have I said we cannot design a vNSR, just we have not yet done so. As for the difference between a designer and a watch, it is much the same as that between said designer and the objecting text he composes. There are things you cannot not know, like that and playing rhetorical games like that will simply confirm you as lacking in seriousness. Go get a dictionary and look up key words. Even something as humble as Wikipedia would help if you genuinely do not know what intelligence is or designers are and the substantial difference between a designer and the result of her design. Go try that stunt at the Patents Office and see how far it gets you, or a plagiarism review panel. As for nonsense strawman redefinitions of ID, they are running away from the focal issue, observable, reliable signs of design manifested by entities. And the tangents that keep pulling away from the focal concern in the OP keep coming. Backhanded evidence, that it is unanswerable. But, the zero concessions policy must continue, never mind how outlandishly. KF kairosfocus
What I actually wrote was....
So, perhaps you can explain exactly what way the designer and watch are in different categories and how that’s actually relevant to Paley’s definition of the appearance of design?
Was there some particular reason why you didn't quote the entire sentence? The text box scrolls to make more room, it's just a few characters more and it would even be harder to just select part of the sentence. Specially, you can simply triple click anywhere in the sentence to select the whole thing. This is in contrast to single clicking, then dragging the cursor to select just that specific part of the entire sentence at the level of individual characters , etc. This seems like a rather specific omission. What gives? You replied....
I would say that it is obvious that they are. However, it is clearly not obvious to you. WRT the fundamental nature of consciousness, perhaps this article by Bill Vallicella is relevant. Here he explains that consciousness cannot be explained in non-conscious events without “explaining it away” which, as he argues, is not an explanation.
Ahh.. it makes sense now. You didn't actually explain why that supposed difference is relevant in regards to Paley's criteria for the appearance of design. I guess that's supposedly obvious too? But, again, then why not just quote my entire sentence? Why is it absent? Speaking of absence, to clarify I asked a follow up question to clarify the issue.
Perhaps the better question would be, do ID proponents think its designer is not well adapted for the purpose of designing bacterium?
Should I respond by saying, "I would say that it is obvious there would be a difference. However, it is clearly not obvious to you"? But, I even took the time to clarify that with follow up questions, in case it, well, wasn't obvious? Yet, you completely ignored them to. What gives? Then you quoted an article by Bill Vallicella, which you seem to find relevant as to why watches and designers are different. (But, apparently not relevant in regards to Paley's criteria for the appearance of design, since you carefully omitted that part of my sentence?)
Here he explains that consciousness cannot be explained in non-conscious events without “explaining it away” which, as he argues, is not an explanation.
First, if conciseness cannot be explained, then it's unclear how this reflects any more of an explanation for the knowledge in living things. Negating a theory doesn't automatically result in a replacement theory that explains the same thing. In fact, it's worse. You have an inexplicable mind that exists in an inexplicable realm, that operates via inexplicable means and methods and is driven by inexplicable motivations. It's unclear how appealing to it actually adds to the explanation. It's almost as if you see being inexplicable as a feature instead of a bug. Second, you still haven't pointed out where this is actually part of ID, the supposedly scientific theory. At best, there is talk about designers, but the theory is careful to present them as utterly and completely abstract and to exclude defining anything that could be construed to be a limitation. IOW designers reflect a essentialist position. Designers design things by nature of being an intelligent agency. Which doesn't refer to how designers work, or the lack there of. After all, specifying too much detail about how the designer works could be problematic. It must leave a hole big enough to drive through their preferred designer. From Pandas and People...
"Intelligent design means that various forms of life began abruptly through an intelligent agency, with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, wings, etc."
Absent is anything about the "intelligent agency" being immaterial, design being fundamental, consciousness causing collapse in quantum mechanics, etc. But that's about 15 years old. Again, by all means, feel free to reference an update version of the supposedly scientific theory ID that does? Third, I anticipated this sort of response. My second question, along with all the ones that followed (the you know, the ones you ignored) was directed at it. Even if we were to to accept this, merely for the purpose of argument, I asked about swapping the designer that supposedly designed bacterium with some other designer - whom's conscious experience would also supposedly "couldn't be reduced non-conscious events", or whatever you want to propose about designers, etc.
For example, could the supposed designer of bacterium be replaced with a designer that lacked the ability, knowledge and eventual design of bacterium, at the outset? Or, to rephrase, would replacing the designer make no difference in the outcome, or would it necessarily result in the lack of bacterium? If the latter, it seems the designer of bacterium would be well adapted to the purpose of designing bacterium. If modified in the way above, it wouldn’t serve that purpose nearly as well. Right? In the case of the former, if it can be arbitrarily replaced with some other designer, it’s unclear in what sense the designer actually played the role of design bacterium? Apparently any old designer would do?
Strangely, or completely predictably, this question went utterly unanswered. Why might that be the case? So which is it? The former or the latter? And, as KF keeps reminding us, we cannot design von-neumann replicators. So swapping the supposed designer of bacterium with a human designer will result in the lack of a bacterium. This is despite our consciousness also supposedly "not being reducible to non-conscious events." Apparently we're not well adapted for the purpose of designing bacterium, while ID's designer apparently is? Otherwise, how do explain the outcome? So, again, how is this relevant to Paley's criteria for the appearance of design? critical rationalist
Critical Rationalists is playing games with people and they are falling for it. He is not serious. He makes up nonsense and people foolishly answer the nonsense as if it were serious. It is a game played by all the anti ID people here. And they easily get what they are after in return. They are not serious in any of the questions they are asking. jerry
CR, again, you are refusing to recognise the empirical base of designed objects and manifest, observable, reliable signs of design. By simply recognising such, the matter becomes simple and the relevance of coded information in the cell becomes clear. I stand by what else I have noted, but by this time it is obvious that this is for record and the pattern of arguments you have used become an example for those wanting to know how the plain and simple can be obfuscated. KF PS, design is intelligently directed configuration. We exemplify and typ[ify but do not exhaust possibilities for intelligence. As we are contingent creatures. Absent the ID debates, these would not even be controversial, but the zero concessions policy is manifest. And of course the coded information in the cell cries out to highest heavens. PPS, again and again, you have been told the obvious but have side stepped it to double down as if questions are unanswered. Before being put on paper or the ground, designs -- start with the text for your objecting comments -- are in the intelligence of the designer. Something readily recognised in say patent law which credits inventors. The zero concessions willful obtuseness involved in such doubling down is that obvious and that inexcusable. kairosfocus
Kirk Durston on "intelligent design."
Intelligent design: an effect that required an intelligent mind to produce. Examples of intelligent design that satisfy the above definition include smartphones, genetically modified plants, a text message, Beethoven’s Fifth, a flint spear point, and CERN’s Large Hadron Collider. [Source]
Origenes
Critical Rationalist @399,
What I do not understand is how a logical argument that the theory of ID is self-referential is both dismissed without any attempt a rebuttal, while the very self-referential claim is doubled down.
To gain understanding, YOU will, first of all, need to define ID and define creationism. Let's see how far you get. -Q Querius
CR
CR: So, perhaps you can explain exactly what way the designer and watch are in different categories ….
I would say that it is obvious that they are. However, it is clearly not obvious to you. WRT the fundamental nature of consciousness, perhaps this article by Bill Vallicella is relevant. Here he explains that consciousness cannot be explained in non-conscious events without “explaining it away” which, as he argues, is not an explanation. Excerpt:
…. if one were to explain the conscious event in terms of unconscious events as Dennett recommends, the explanation would fail: (….) The upshot would be an elimination of the datum to be explained rather than an explanation of it. To reiterate the obvious, a successful explanation cannot consign the explanandum to oblivion. It must explain it, not explain it away. I conclude that consciousness cannot be explained, given Dennett's demand that a successful explanation of consciousness must be in terms of unconscious events. What he wants is a reduction to the physical. He wants that because he is convinced that only the physical exists. But in the case of consciousness, such a reduction must needs be an elimination.
Origenes
@KF I was going to address your comment in detail, but in an effort not to distract you, I'll just simply repeat the questions that have remained unanswered. Incredulity does not addressed ID's attempt to explain being well adapted to serve a purpose with, well, being well adapted to serve a purpose, which is a contradiction. Again, do ID proponents think its designer is not well adapted for the purpose of designing bacterium? Could the supposed designer of bacterium be replaced with, say, a human being? What would be the outcome and why? It's unclear how any designer capable of designing a bacterium would not also "[transcend] the FSCO/I threshold" transcended by a bacterium. And, as you keep reminding us, we transcend this threshold, despite not being able to design bacterium. How could any such designer of bacterium not exceed that threshold by some significant margin? if not, then how did it mange to design bacterium? Also, as you pointed out, for information to exist, specific physical tasks must be possible. We can explain information in respect to which physical transformations must be possible, which must be impossible and why. This includes transformations necessarily to allow information to be copied, the principle of the interoperability of information, etc. So, again, where was this same knowledge instantiated before some designer put in into bacterium? Did that knowledge spontaneously appear out of thin air when the designer created the first bacterium? If not then how did that recipe get copied into the first bacterium? ID’s designer would itself be a complicated, knowledge-laden entity. IOW, no. I'm not side stepping the OP. The content of our ideas don't always end up getting used ways we intend. Apparently, you can't possibly imagine this happening? As for sidestepping, I've asked these questions multiple times, making clarification after clarification along the way. What I get in return is, at best, circular claims of exceeding FSCO/I and, at worst, incredulity, instead of answers. What gives? What I do not understand is how a logical argument that the theory of ID is self-referential is both dismissed without any attempt a rebuttal, while the very self-referential claim is doubled down. It's as if the entire FSCO/I threshold doesn't actually play a role in your conclusion. It just's trotted out when it suites your purpose. It's unclear how ID can actually play the role you claim it does. critical rationalist
AF, first, on track record you refuse to entertain the force of testimony, good chain of custody record and other evidence that would transcend your antisupernaturalist ideological tendencies; including the empirically founded consensus that cells have coded algorithmic information, so we point to ideological question begging, dismissiveness and strawman caricatures of those you object to. Second, it is rather readily seen that empirical observation cannot establish universal necessity. So we can note that from the foundational era of modern science it was known that it is a highly reasonable view that the usual operation of the world sustained by the power of the Creator [hence, LAWS of nature] can be suspended or transcended for good cause. Transcended means, there is a higher law acting. As for actual miracles good and bad, I have personally experienced predictive, life shaping prophecies and healing. On the other side [evil], I have seen levitation of someone in a dead faint in clear transcending of basic gravity, as did many other witnesses; this has revised my estimation of many other reports. Going to a core case, Babbage in his 9th Bridgewater Thesis draws out how sufficient weight of witnesses can rapidly reduce likelihood of error of witnesses to negligible proportions, with particular reference to the 500 witnesses to Jesus' resurrection. But of course, if you find ways to deny and dismiss the empirically warranted conclusion that there is algorithmic code in the cell, you will predictably dismiss all other cases that do not suit your preferences. So, kindly reconsider your epistemological habits. KF PS, the fine tuning of Weasel programs shows latching with rare slips, readily. You were corrected on this, but of course the problem is not balance of evidence but your epistemological habits. And there is no need for yet another tangent. Until you correct the crooked yardstick thinking you have shown consistently, there is only correction for record. As is the case on coded information in the cell. kairosfocus
Where, fundamental thermodynamics is not so much overthrown as transcended, at a price, as the entropy cost must be paid.
So, are the laws of this universe ever violated? Your equivocation reminds me of quazi-latching. :) Alan Fox
Sainthood is based on evidence.
I suspect the word "evidence" means something different to Relatd than it does to Alan Fox. Alan Fox
Critical Rationalist @369, In addition to what Kairosfocus explained to you, let me add my comments.
Specifically, God has supposedly always known everything that could possibly be known.
This is an example of the logical error of “binary superlatives” with respect to God. It leads to stupidities such as “Can God create a rock that He cannot lift?” If God can’t create such a rock, He’s not all powerful and if He can’t lift such a rock He’s not all powerful. Or better yet, can God make Himself to cease to exist? Same binary superlative logic.
And where did the information in the genome of organisms come from according to creationists? God, of course. Apparently, that knowledge always “just was”, along with God, at the outset. So, this denies that anything genuinely, fundamentally new was created.
Did God create everything in this universe that could possibly exist? (No) Or did God instantiate some possibilities into a designed subset? (Yes)
Creationism is effectively like last Thursday-ism. After all, if God created the universe last Thursday, he would have been the actual origin of general relativity, not Einstein.
Nonsense. God created space-time. Our human theories are very likely to be approximations of a reality that we ASSUME we have the IQ to understand.
And the theory would have always existed, along with God. Which denies that creation actually took place.
Nonsense. Could God create a universe in which Einstein’s Theory of Relativity would be false? (Sure. Why not?)
Creationism, in regards to living things, just pushes the boundary further in the distant past. It denies that the knowledge in living things was genuine created, just like last thursday-ism denies that scientists genuinely created any of their theories, before last Thursday.
No, because our space-time did not exist until God created it (including last Thursdayism). So, can you even begin imagine what it’s like for God to exist outside of time? He described himself to Moses as “I AM.” I have no idea. Maybe it might be analogous to a finite (or infinite) state machine.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. - Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV
Could it be true that God is a lot smarter and thinks entirely different than we do? Can your mind encompass the entirety of God? Of course I’m sure you could continue by arguing, “How did God breathe before He created air?” O.o -Q Querius
CR, it is obvious that you are recirclulating and doubling down on long since answered objections. Indeed, the answer traces to Thaxton et al in TMLO, 1984. On your attempt to get a regress of designers, notice, we are designers and are contingent creatures. The recognition of our designs and the pattern of observable signs of design is utterly independent of our ontological status. Your regress is irrelevant to the inductively founded, empirically based inference to key causal explanation, designed. However, we also know that our cosmos is temporally bound in the past and exhibits fine tuning that fosters C Chem, aqueous medium, cell based life. These are signs of design that point onward to another class of designer. For, as we saw here at UD over a three year period, step by step, temporal-causal, thermodynamically constrained successive stages [time in a cosmologically relevant sense] cannot be past infinite, as such a stepwise traverse on logic of structure and quantity, cannot mount up to the implicitly or explicitly transfinite. So, even through speculative multiverses, there is a hard beginning at finite remove. As a world does not come from non being and circular retrocausation is another form of appeal to the causal power of non being, we can rule both out. However, there is a third class of being, readily seen from the futile exercise of trying to imagine a distinct possible world W that does not embed duality, twoness, the number 2. That is, there are necessary being entities, framework to any possible [thus, actual] world. So, once a world is, we may readily recognise that something causally adequate always was. A necessary being, here, one capable of causing the sort of fine tuned world we inhabit. So, recognising design from empirically warranted sign does not lead to the sort of regress you imagine. You have been corrected for record. KF kairosfocus
CR, fairly roughly put, but intelligently directed configuration is a way of talking about a rather respectable physical quantity, work. This, being, forced, ordered motion, elementally, the dot product F*dx. Here, intelligence points to constructive or configurational work, towards a problem solving, goal directed purpose. Something as familiar as construction of the text of your objecting comment. Where, fundamental thermodynamics is not so much overthrown as transcended, at a price, as the entropy cost must be paid. That is, when configurational work that transcends the FSCO/I threshold is done . . . and yes, we are seeing a fluctuation threshold here . . . energy has come from a source, has gone through shaft work towards a goal of intelligent purpose and has to exhaust to a heat sink, the due waste heat. For us, the main source is the sun and sometimes the source of radioactive energy stored in certain earth minerals. All of this leads to the exposure of the blind chance and/or blind mechanical necessity thesis, sometimes dressed up in the notion that open systems solve all thermodynamic problems. This is a fallacy, as uncoordinated -- raw -- energy injected into a system normally INCREASES entropic degradation. Where, further, though the laws of physics and chemistry are compatible with creation of complex functional organisation, they do not foster the sort of arranging, orienting, coupling and configuration required to achieve complex function. Typing a coherent sentence or two is very different from the gibberish or crystal like repetitive patterns due to blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. As we well know. And, refocussing the OP you obviously wish to sidestep, algorithmic, coded, complex information in the cell leading to proteins, metabolic and structural operations, not to mention self replication, are cases in point of FSCO/I. Where, we can of course see that cells are self replicating, so the von Neumann kinematic self replicator model is relevant to the involved architecture, though we have not fully elucidated it, much less construction of body plans. KF kairosfocus
Alan Fox Simplifying. Are miracles happening now? Where’s the evidence?
Hahaha! You should ask where are the evidences of your childish beliefs that chemistry creates functional informations and codes that produce life .
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, “Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.” But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Sandy
The designer and the watch do not fall into the same category.
In some form or another, everything doesn't fall in the same category of everything else. Otherwise, it would be the same thing. For example, we can be in the same category of human beings, yet not in the category of being in the same city, or a specific age, or a particular height, etc. Right? So, perhaps you can explain exactly what way the designer and watch are in different categories and how that's actually relevant to Paley's definition of the appearance of design? Perhaps the better question would be, do ID proponents think its designer is not well adapted for the purpose of designing bacterium? For example, could the supposed designer of bacterium be replaced with a designer that lacked the ability, knowledge and eventual design of bacterium, at the outset? Or, to rephrase, would replacing the designer make no difference in the outcome, or would it necessarily result in the lack of bacterium? If the latter, it seems the designer of bacterium would be well adapted to the purpose of designing bacterium. If modified in the way above, it wouldn't serve that purpose nearly as well. Right? In the case of the former, if it can be arbitrarily replaced with some other designer, it's unclear in what sense the designer actually played the role of design bacterium? Apparently any old designer would do? But, as KF likes to remind us ....
Replicating, von Neumann, kinematic self replicator context. A class of machine we have analysed since 1948, but have yet to actually create, much less, using molecular nanotech at micron scale. KF
IOW, Currently, human designers could not be swapped with the supposed designer of bacterium. We have yet to create the necessary knowledge. (It's a question of knowledge, not desire.) So, if we were put in ID's designer's place, the result would be, well, the lack of bacterium. Right? So, no, not just any designer would do. We are not well adapted for the purpose of designing bacterium, while ID's designer supposedly is. Furthermore, since bacterium do not appear out of thin air or come of a bacterium factory, wouldn't that design necessarily include the recipe that bacterium use to make copies of themselves? Where was that recipe instantiated before there were bacterium? Otherwise, how did that recipe end up in the bacterium? Again, if that recipe just appeared spontaneously, when the designer created bacterium, it's unclear how it makes sense to say the designer, well, deigned bacterium. Finally, this recipe is the very thing that ID claims exhibits the appearance of design. That recipe is also well adapted to serve a purpose and therefore necessitates a designer. So, it's unclear why the bacterium's supposed designer wouldn't also necessitate a designer as well, etc. critical rationalist
AF at 388, I have no idea what you want. Sainthood is based on evidence. Pope John Paul II: https://www.magiscenter.com/blog/the-miracle-that-made-pope-john-paul-ii-a-canonized-saint relatd
The only argument against ID has been mockery or nonsense. That's all we have seen since it started. This thread is a case in point. So a couple people have said they will not respond to someone. Wish that were true for all those who mock or provide nonsense. But that would eliminate 95% of the comments here and probably 98% of the words. That would be a step forward because then maybe some positive things could be discussed. jerry
Yes, they are happening right now.
And what can you tell me? 19th century stuff (Lourdes, Fatima) looks a little doubtful in hindsight. Bernadette Soubirous ? Alan Fox
Otherwise, the question of who designed the designer would be valid.
*chuckles* Alan Fox
Why shouldn’t just respond with “we don’t know”, rather than be ID proponents? IOW, this seems to be a case of the cart pulling the horse, so to speak.
Indeed, the default to "therefore 'ID' " is understandable but unscientific. Alan Fox
A scientific theory is based on the laws of physics. ID is based on the ability of an intelligence to counteract those laws.
Exactly which ability are you referring to? Are you suggesting there is scientific evidence of intelligence actually counteracting those laws? if it were true that intelligence regularly violates the laws of physics, that would, in and of itself, reflect a regularity in nature. So, it would reflect a new law of physics. Right? Or does ID just suppose that intelligence counteracts laws because there is supposedly no coherent explanation about how intelligence works? If so, seems to be a "designer" of the gaps argument. Furthermore, ID seems to treat intelligence as some kind of ultimate essence, which is quote problematic in a number of ways. For example, how does intelligence work? Is having adopted this philosophical view yet another attribute of ID proponents? It's unclear how this reflects a coherent explanation of intelligence. Why shouldn't just respond with "we don't know", rather than be ID proponents? IOW, this seems to be a case of the cart pulling the horse, so to speak. critical rationalist
Origenes @368,
The designer and the watch do not fall into the same category. Similarly, the thinker and his thoughts do not fall into the same category. From ‘thoughts are explained by a thinker who thinks them’ does not follow that a thinker is also explained by some other thinker who “thinks” him. Also, I note that the idea that everything can be explained by something more fundamental leads to an infinite regress of fundamental causes, which is incoherent. In this context, the designer is provisionally taken to be fundamental.
Great point! Otherwise, the question of who designed the designer would be valid. -Q Querius
AF at 380, Yes, they are happening right now. The Congregation for the Causes of Saints investigates miracles. It is an exacting process where evidence is collected, arguments against it are made and outside experts in relevant areas are brought in. https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/251319/pope-francis-advances-sainthood-cause-of-filipino-bishop-known-for-bilocation relatd
Origenes @360,
WRT Alan Fox I will ignore Alan Fox from now on, for deliberately misquoting Querius in #267; see also #290. He refused to apologize and in #324 went so far as to blame others for his own mistake. In my book, this is unacceptable behavior.
Agreed. -Q Querius
Kairosfocus @353, Great post!
One would hope that in 50 years, objectors would acknowledge basic points, but that has patently been a vain hope. The rhetorical advantages of selectively hyperskeptical, double standards, zero concession, you are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked implicit ad hominem tactics have been far too tempting to the ideologues.
Yep, because one cannot reason someone out of a position that they didn’t reason themselves into. The bottom line is that the rhetoric and “any day now” promises haven’t delivered in 50 years. One would think that by now they would start losing hope in a failed 19th century racist, colonialist, and genocidal rationalization. And some scientists have indeed been questioning the abysmal record of failure in Darwinism. But not the Darwinian Fundamentalists because this is their quasi religion in which they frequently call on their gods-of-the-gaps MUSTA, MIGHTA, and EMERGED. -Q Querius
Simplifying. Are miracles happening now? Where's the evidence? Alan Fox
Can we estimate, given, for the sake of arguments that deviations from the laws of the universe happen to living organisms that result in change, how often such events occur?
100% in accord with ID.
Almost everyone in the developed World carries a phone capable of taking pics and videos. Should people be encouraged to keep watch and report?
they already are. They end up as click bait on social media. One of the biggest wastes of time in everyone’s life these days. jerry
Why don’t you pursue it?
I will certainly keep an eye out for such an event but gathering evidence might be problematic. Can we estimate, given, for the sake of arguments that deviations from the laws of the universe happen to living organisms that result in change, how often such events occur? Nothing miraculous has been spotted with Richard Lenski's bacteria yet, notwithstanding the close eye kept on them. Grants' finches? Almost everyone in the developed World carries a phone capable of taking pics and videos. Should people be encouraged to keep watch and report? Alan Fox
The necessary discontinuity with say the second law of thermodynamics being violated would be Earth-shattering news
Why don’t you pursue it? I’m sure no one in ID will oppose you. So have at it. jerry
There is no scientific theory of ID.
Bold of you to say so, Jerry. Explains why no-one had been able to offer one.
If anyone suggest there is, they do not know what they are saying. A scientific theory is based on the laws of physics. ID is based on the ability of an intelligence to counteract those laws.
Ah but then the task is obvious. Seek out the interface where "an intelligence" counteracts physical laws. The necessary discontinuity with say the second law of thermodynamics being violated would be Earth-shattering news. Alan Fox
You should probably let KF, BA, UB, etc. know
They know. Anyone who believes ID is a scientific theory confuses logic with science. The word theory has many meanings. ID is definitely not a theory in the scientific sense. It may be theory in the sense “the butler did it” in a crime mystery. In the early days of UD Dembski was involved in trying to mathematically prove certain things were intelligence based. So pushing ID as a theory became part of his attempt to establish a discipline. It probably has done more harm than good. ID definitely uses science but as I said focuses on origin phenomena that have no coherent explanation due to the laws of physics. ID accepts just about all other science. In fact ID promotes better science than taught in nearly all the universities on the planet. That is the greatest irony yet. jerry
There is no scientific theory of ID.
You should probably let KF, BA, UB, etc. know. It would save them a lot of time arguing the contrary. critical rationalist
AF at 359, You're very good at it. I suggest you stop... relatd
the supposedly scientific theory of ID
There is no scientific theory of ID. If anyone suggest there is, they do not know what they are saying. A scientific theory is based on the laws of physics. ID is based on the ability of an intelligence to counteract those laws. As such it could be a single occurrence. ID uses traditional science to analyze the physical world and then makes conclusions based on logic what the evidence from scientific enquiry means. In nearly all cases it will agree with traditional conclusions made by science. But for a small set usually having to do with origins and where science has no coherent set of conclusions ID speculates that the best explanation may be an intelligence. jerry
@Origenes I'd again ask, can you point to any of this in the supposedly scientific theory of ID? Please be specific.
Also, I note that the idea that everything can be explained by something more fundamental leads to an infinite regress of fundamental causes, which is incoherent. In this context, the designer is provisionally taken to be fundamental.
So, apparently, somethings can have the appearance of design, yet not actually be designed? Also, this implies, some designer, "just was" complete with the knowledge of which genes would result in use the right proteins, which would result in just the right features, already present. This does not serve an explanatory purpose, as we could more efficiently state that the knowledge of which genes would result in just the right proteins, that would result in just the right features, "just appeared" when the first bacterium was formed. If we're going to accept bad explanations, we can just skip the designer. Both are bad explanations. critical rationalist
Kairosfocus: self replicating, von Neumann, kinematic self replicator context. A class of machine we have analysed since 1948, but have yet to actually create, much less, using molecular nanotech at micron scale. Sigh. Can you show me somewhere in DNA a sequence that embodies programming more complicated that Python or C? JVL
So if Alan Fox himself is not responsible for writing his own sentences, then how much less can anyone else possibly be responsible for creating watches?
Creationism is misleadingly named. This is because it actually denies creation actually took place. Specifically, God has supposedly always known everything that could possibly be known. And where did the information in the genome of organisms come from according to creationists? God, of course. Apparently, that knowledge always "just was", along with God, at the outset. So, this denies that anything genuinely, fundamentally new was created. Creationism is effectively like last Thursday-ism. After all, if God created the universe last Thursday, he would have been the actual origin of general relativity, not Einstein. And the theory would have always existed, along with God. Which denies that creation actually took place. Creationism, in regards to living things, just pushes the boundary further in the distant past. It denies that the knowledge in living things was genuine created, just like last thursday-ism denies that scientists genuinely created any of their theories, before last Thursday. critical rationalist
CR @367
However, if we substitute “ultimate designer” for “watch” in Paley’s argument, we force Paley to ‘the [inevitable] inference…that the ultimate designer must have had a maker’. As a contradiction, that argument for design rules itself out.
The designer and the watch do not fall into the same category. Similarly, the thinker and his thoughts do not fall into the same category. From ‘thoughts are explained by a thinker who thinks them’ does not follow that a thinker is also explained by some other thinker who "thinks" him. Also, I note that the idea that everything can be explained by something more fundamental leads to an infinite regress of fundamental causes, which is incoherent. In this context, the designer is provisionally taken to be fundamental. Origenes
CR, you started with, analogue.
And you have yet to address the actual criticism. This is hand waving.
Next, I pointed out compact description. It can be presumed we are both aware of the issue of Kolmogorov-Chaitin complexity and metrics indicating randomness.
It's unclear how this helps, as random strings have higher information content in terms of Kolmogorov-Chaitin complexity. So, it is more or less? Also this pushes the problem around, as different Turing machines are more or less efficient in regards to the number of instructions and even trade more instructions for performance. Nor have you addressed the issue that the means by which you decided to represent a watch digitally, beforehand, would result in a widely different number of bits. So, the watch would have a widely varying appearance of design depending on what choices you happen to make, what Turing machine you happen to use, etc. it's unclear how this can be applied in a meaningful way, in practice.
We also know that a threshold metric is at such a scale relative to actual cases that compressibility is irrelevant, a distraction.
And what is the threshold actually based on? How did you calculate it? How is it explanatory, as opposed to based on the flawed assumption that the distant past will resemble the recent past? And, strangely enough, you're only willing to apply this threshold when it suits your purpose. ID's designer would, by nature of having designed living things, as ID claims, itself exhibit the appearance of design. It too would be well adapted to serve a purpose: design organisms.
living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity.
They are well adapted to serve a purpose. Unless you somehow think specified things are not well adapted to serve a purpose. I'm still waiting for that Venn diagram that indicates otherwise.
The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . .
I'm confused as, depending on what post you read on UD, we either cannot define what life is, therefore God, or we can define what life is not, therefore God. Which is it? You and News should really get your stories straight. On the other hand, crystals are not well adapted to serve a purpose. They form spontaneously and lack a recipe that describes it, is used to construct new instances of it, etc.
Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all .
But, again, complex, random structures have a higher Kolmogorov-Chaitin complexity. They take more instructions to represent exactly. So, what gives? On the other hand, complex, random structures are not well adapted to serve a purpose. If truly random, in that you can replace them with some other random string in respect to some purpose, then you can vary them without a corresponding significant reduction in their ability to serve that purpose, Right? This fits the example of comparing a watch and a rock. The rock is not well adapted to serve the purpose of telling time. You can vary it significantly and it will play the role of a sundial just as well. In fact, you can replace it with something that is a non-rock, such as a stick, plant, etc. The knowledge of how to use a rock to tell time is in us, not the rock. This is in contrast to the case of the watch. You cannot vary it without reducing its ability to tell time. It's a rare instantiation of matter. All of its parts play a hard to vary role in telling time. Now, what of a designer of living things? From the perspective of a vehicle, replicator, recipe, the design of the first bacterium must have contained the recipe the bacterium itself would use make copies of itself. And that recipe is the very thing you claim that needs to be explained in living things. So, the designer would self need a designer, etc. To quote Paley...
“The inference we think is inevitable, that the watch must have had a maker…There cannot be design without a designer; contrivance without a contriver; order without choice; arrangement without anything capable of arranging; subserviency and relation to a purpose without that which could intend a purpose; means suitable to an end…without the end ever having been contemplated or the means accommodated to it. Arrangement, disposition of parts, subserviency of means to an end, relation of instruments to a use imply the presence of intelligence and mind.”
However, if we substitute "ultimate designer" for "watch" in Paley’s argument, we force Paley to ‘the [inevitable] inference…that the ultimate designer must have had a maker’. As a contradiction, that argument for design rules itself out. But, by all means, could the designer of bacterium be replaced with a designer that did not already possess the bacterium's design, at the outset, including the recipe bacterium use to make copies of themselves? That recipe is the very thing that ID proponents claim necessitates a designer.
One would hope that in 50 years, objectors would acknowledge basic points,
First, you just conflated one of those basic points. Again random strings have higher Kolmogorov-Chaitin complexity, not lower. That's a rather basic error? Second, again, can you provide an example of something you think is designed that does not fit the more fundamental characterization of being "well adapted to serve a purpose"? This should be trivial for you, based on your objection. So, why haven't you provided an example of it yet? critical rationalist
For the sake of rational coherence, can we all agree that a watch does not “appear” to be designed, but, instead, *is* designed?
Watches, such as the one Paley was referring to are both designed and have the appearance of design. Without a hard to vary definition of the appearance of design, that actually scales, how can it actually be used, in practice? IOW, this just seems like an attempt to change the subject. I'd also point out that human beings are good explanations for said watch for a vast number of reasons. For example, they emphasize the concept of time in a way that is conceptual / explanatory and are optimized to provide an affordance to people. Explanatory knowledge can only be created by people. This is addition to there being a vast history of watch makers, books on the subject, tools, repair shops, etc. Also, advances in watches have grown in sync with advances in human knowledge. IOW, we can explain the ability for watches to tell time more accurately now, than in the past, because human knowledge of how to do so had not been created yet. However ID's designer is abstract and has no defined limitations. As such, it has no limit on what it knew, when it knew it, etc. this makes that trend completely unexplainable by IDs designer. The best an ID proponent could say is that watches follow that trend because "that's just what the designer wanted". This abstraction neuters design as a means of explaining things. When you remove all of that explanatory context, what you're left with is some essentialist view of design, which removes its explanatory power. In addition, watches are not self replicators. They do not contain the knowledge of how to transform raw materials into copies of themselves. Rather, when they wear out, another watch must be constructed. Watches are not also self-replicators. The knowledge in watchmakers is explained by variation and criticism. It was either copied from some earlier knowledge, or was genuinely created. critical rationalist
Welp, I’m not part of that conversation!
The word (design) has been kidnapped. I just want it to be free. Alan Fox
I should have wrote:
Now, imagine someone wrote a description that could be sent to one model of 3D printer, which would result in printing a second model of 3D printer. Furthermore, that second 3D Printer could print copies of itself. The first description must contain the second description, but translated into a form that could be printed using the first 3D printer. When printed, it would result in the description the second printer used to print copies of itself. This too reflects the interoperability of information. IOW, if the first description did not contain the second, translated so it would eventually be the result of the original printing process, then how did the second description find its way into the second 3D printer, enabling it to print copes of itself? Did it just appear when the first printer printed it?
critical rationalist
@362
Come off it, Origenes, all three of us, you, Querius and Alan Fox, we all agree that everything is designed so why not just admit it. We just differ on how, when, where, design happens and especially on what is doing the designing.
Welp, I'm not part of that conversation! PyrrhoManiac1
Re Origenes @ 360, Come off it, Origenes, all three of us, you, Querius and Alan Fox, we all agree that everything is designed so why not just admit it. We just differ on how, when, where, design happens and especially on what is doing the designing. Let's move on from point zero. Alan Fox
You folks want to own design. Well , you can't. It's a perfectly normal word with an everyday meaning. Using it equivocally is dishonest. By all means use "Design" so everyone is clear on the identity of the "Designer" and which processes "He" is 'Designing". OK? Alan Fox
WRT Alan Fox I will ignore Alan Fox from now on, for deliberately misquoting Querius in #267; see also #290. He refused to apologize and in #324 went so far as to blame others for his own mistake. In my book, this is unacceptable behavior. Origenes
And I'm the one chided for misrepresentation! Alan Fox
Origenes: For the sake of rational coherence, can we all agree that a watch does not “appear” to be designed, but, instead, *is* designed? Alan Fox: I thought everyone agrees with me that everything is designed. That is trivial. As is whether the design agent is intelligent. The important questions are what did the designing, when, how (why is for philosophers to tackle).
Alan Fox then chides ID proponents for supposedly failing to grasp the 'nuances' of evolutionary theory. Yet, apparently, Alan Fox himself does not really understand the 'nuances' of his own evolutionary theory. In evolutionary theory there simply is no design. PERIOD. There is only the appearance, (or more appropriately), the "illusion" of design. Moreover, with their denial of free will, there simply is no intelligent agent causality, human or otherwise, within evolutionary theory. There are only blind physical laws, and/or unintelligent forces, producing these illusions of design. Whether it be producing the illusion that nature and life overwhelmingly appear to be intelligently designed, or whether it be the illusion that watches, computers, iPhones, etc, overwhelmingly appear to be intelligently designed by humans. Intelligent agent causality, human or otherwise, simply does not exist within the methodological naturalism that atheists falsely insist is the 'ground rule' for doing science. As Paul Nelson put it, under methodological naturalism, "You didn’t write your email to me. Physics did, and informed you of that event after the fact."
Do You Like SETI? Fine, Then Let’s Dump Methodological Naturalism Paul Nelson - September 24, 2014 Excerpt: Assessing the Damage MN Does to Freedom of Inquiry Epistemology — how we know — and ontology — what exists — are both affected by methodological naturalism. If we say, "We cannot know that a mind caused x," laying down an epistemological boundary defined by MN, then our ontology comprising real causes for x won’t include minds. MN entails an ontology in which minds are the consequence of physics, and thus, can only be placeholders for a more detailed causal account in which physics is the only (ultimate) actor. You didn’t write your email to me. Physics did, and informed you of that event after the fact. "That’s crazy," you reply, "I certainly did write my email." Okay, then — to what does the pronoun "I" in that sentence refer? Your personal agency; your mind. Are you supernatural?,,, You are certainly an intelligent cause, however, and your intelligence does not collapse into physics. (If it does collapse — i.e., can be reduced without explanatory loss — we haven’t the faintest idea how, which amounts to the same thing.) To explain the effects you bring about in the world — such as your email, a real pattern — we must refer to you as a unique agent.,,, ,,, some feature of "intelligence" must be irreducible to physics, because otherwise we’re back to physics versus physics, and there’s nothing for SETI to look for. https://evolutionnews.org/2014/09/do_you_like_set/
Even as Alan Fox himself honestly admitted, under evolutionary theory Alan Fox himself is not responsible for writing his own sentences, but the 'niche' is.
BA77: “So AF holds that the ‘niche”, not AF himself, is responsible for the information that he himself is writing in his posts?” Alan Fox: “Yes, sort of, though I don’t know,,,,” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-evolution-news-for-darwinism-pregnancy-is-the-mother-of-all-chicken-and-egg-problems/#comment-771084
So if Alan Fox himself is not responsible for writing his own sentences, then how much less can anyone else possibly be responsible for creating watches? Shoot, to show just how unscientific 'methodological naturalism' actually is, and as George Ellis pointed out, Einstein himself "could not have been responsible for the theory of relativity – it would have been a product of lower level processes but not of an intelligent mind choosing between possible options."
Physicist George Ellis on the importance of philosophy and free will - July 27, 2014 Excerpt: And free will?: Horgan: Einstein, in the following quote, seemed to doubt free will: “If the moon, in the act of completing its eternal way around the Earth, were gifted with self-consciousness, it would feel thoroughly convinced that it was traveling its way of its own accord…. So would a Being, endowed with higher insight and more perfect intelligence, watching man and his doings, smile about man’s illusion that he was acting according to his own free will.” Do you believe in free will? Ellis: Yes. Einstein is perpetuating the belief that all causation is bottom up. This simply is not the case, as I can demonstrate with many examples from sociology, neuroscience, physiology, epigenetics, engineering, and physics. Furthermore if Einstein did not have free will in some meaningful sense, then he could not have been responsible for the theory of relativity – it would have been a product of lower level processes but not of an intelligent mind choosing between possible options. I find it very hard to believe this to be the case – indeed it does not seem to make any sense. Physicists should pay attention to Aristotle’s four forms of causation – if they have the free will to decide what they are doing. If they don’t, then why waste time talking to them? They are then not responsible for what they say. http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/physicist-george-ellis-on-the-importance-of-philosophy-and-free-will/
To put it mildly, to deny Einstein was responsible for the theory of relativity is madness! In short, if you believe humans, not unintelligent forces, are responsible for writing sentences and for creating watches, and if you believe Einstein, not unintelligent forces, was responsible for the theory of relativity, then it necessarily follows that you believe in intelligent agent causality, and therefore it necessarily follows that you believe in intelligent design. So thus in conclusion, and as Granville Sewell succinctly put it, "The argument for intelligent design could not be simpler or clearer: Unintelligent forces alone cannot rearrange atoms into computers and airplanes and nuclear power plants and smartphones, and any attempt to explain how they can must fail somewhere because they obviously can’t. "
Three Realities Chance Can’t Explain That Intelligent Design Can Granville Sewell - June 6, 2022 Excerpt: "The argument for intelligent design could not be simpler or clearer: Unintelligent forces alone cannot rearrange atoms into computers and airplanes and nuclear power plants and smartphones, and any attempt to explain how they can must fail somewhere because they obviously can’t. " https://evolutionnews.org/2022/06/three-realities-chance-cant-explain-that-intelligent-design-can/
Verse:
Acts 3:15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.
bornagain77
JVL, self replicating, von Neumann, kinematic self replicator context. A class of machine we have analysed since 1948, but have yet to actually create, much less, using molecular nanotech at micron scale. KF kairosfocus
PS, on a red herring, algorithm does not require loops to be algorithmic. A common but not universal feature is not a defining feature; this is obvious, algorithms are finite, stepwise goal directed processes with start and halting. This red herring was corrected months ago when it appeared, showing a misunderstanding of algorithms. Just, ignored as usual through the zero concessions rhetorical strategy. Objections are to be spread [frustrating actual progress], not responsibly adjusted to evidence is the clear subtext. kairosfocus
Querius: Yeah, programming DNA and epigenetics are far more complicated than Python, Javascript, or C++. Give me an example of genetic programming in DNA that is 'far more complicated than Python' etc. JVL
AF, you continue to be incorrigible. We both know that if everything is presumed "designed," including by blind chance and blind mechanical necessity -- which are maxed out by 500 - 1,000 bits of FSCO/I, design is robbed of meaning. The obvious rhetorical agenda. One that ignores the configurationally sensitive nature of FSCO/I, thus fine tuned islands of function. But again selective ignoring is part of the strawman tactic. No, setting aside yet another strawman tactic, the issue is, are there observable, reliable signs of design as cause. The answer to which is plainly yes, for watches, gears, text of objecting comments and the algorithmic, string data structure code in the cell that you spent months trying to dismiss alike. KF kairosfocus
CR, you started with, analogue. Next, I pointed out compact description. It can be presumed we are both aware of the issue of Kolmogorov-Chaitin complexity and metrics indicating randomness. We also know that a threshold metric is at such a scale relative to actual cases that compressibility is irrelevant, a distraction. And more, maybe you may find Orgel a useful reminder. KF PS, Orgel, 1973, yes 50 years ago:
living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . . [HT, Mung, fr. p. 190 & 196:] These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure.
[--> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant J S Wicken "wiring diagram" for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002, also cf here, -- here and -- here -- (with here on self-moved agents as designing causes).]
One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [--> so if the q's to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions.  [--> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . . . Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes [--> Orgel had high hopes for what Chem evo and body-plan evo could do by way of info generation beyond the FSCO/I threshold, 500 - 1,000 bits.] [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189, p. 190, p. 196.]
One would hope that in 50 years, objectors would acknowledge basic points, but that has patently been a vain hope. The rhetorical advantages of selectively hyperskeptical, double standards, zero concession, you are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked implicit ad hominem tactics have been far too tempting to the ideologues. kairosfocus
For the sake of rational coherence, can we all agree that a watch does not “appear” to be designed, but, instead, *is* designed?
I thought everyone agrees with me that everything is designed. That is trivial. As is whether the design agent is intelligent. The important questions are what did the designing, when, how (why is for philosophers to tackle). Evolution (backed up by molecular phylogenetics) explains common descent, change over time, fossils, extant species and so much more. Now I know some ID proponents scoff at evolutionary theory, even though they appear not to have grasped the nuances. But what else can they offer? A better explanation for the observed facts? Don't think so. Alan Fox
Code as in what computer programmers do is not at all like what is seen in DNA. In DNA there are no loops or if-then-else constructs. DNA does no exhibit input and output functions. DNA does not write things to memory or send things to a printer.
Using quite simple chemistry, phenol is the key reagent (so don't do this at home), you can extract DNA from a tissue sample, collecting the DNA precipitate on a glass rod. It looks magical as it forms glistening strings with an iridescent banding effect across the strings. This preparation is what Rosalind Franklin used in her x-ray crystallography investigation that demonstrated the double strand helix. It never occurred to me how similar hydrated shimmering banded iridescent DNA molecules are to computers, especially how the inherent emerging properties of the DNA molecules show up at the visible scale. Just like computers. Alan Fox
JVL @345,
Code as in what computer programmers do is not at all like what is seen in DNA. In DNA there are no loops or if-then-else constructs. DNA does no exhibit input and output functions. DNA does not write things to memory or send things to a printer.
Yeah, programming DNA and epigenetics are far more complicated than Python, Javascript, or C++. But genetics does have a memory, though not a *printer* in the sense of printing on paper (gasp). -Q Querius
Origenes @347,
For the sake of rational coherence, can we all agree that a watch does not “appear” to be designed, but, instead, *is* designed?
But that's the rub. We have no way of scientifically measuring design, which does impact archaeology in some cases. For example, how do you evaluate the intelligent design that went into these stone tools: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/monkeys-make-stone-ldquo-tools-rdquo-that-bear-a-striking-resemblance-to-early-human-artifacts/ Maybe a better example might be a space alien to comes across a "church key" bottle and can opener. How can one be certain that an artifact is natural or intelligently designed? Is it merely a religious artifact or a work of art? -Q Querius
CR @347
For example, the very same watch could appear to have wildly more or less of the appearance of design ...
For the sake of rational coherence, can we all agree that a watch does not "appear" to be designed, but, instead, *is* designed? Origenes
CR, you tried to suggest that a watch is an analogue instrument so bits are irrelevant. I simply pointed out that FSCO/I rich entities are informationally reducible to bits using compact description languages, and gave AutoCAD as a rough illustration.
No, I pointed out that the means by which you might choose to represent the watch, in bits, would vary wildly depending on the particular digital format you choose to represent it. Right? For example, the very same watch could appear to have wildly more or less of the appearance of design depending on what format you happened to chose to represent it, digitally. If you store it as a 12K by 12K png, that would be vastly more bits than, say, parametric format. You’d have to somehow use the most efficient digital representation possible, and that format might not have even been invented yet. For example, someone just recently invented a way to reduce the size of a Neural Radiance Field by 100 times. As such, did a watch represented as an NRF suddenly just have much less of the appearance of design? And what about a description in a string of text? Words are shortcuts for ideas, which would represent other information in the receiver, etc. As such, it's unclear how this could be accurately used, in practice, to identify how much a thing has the appearance of design. Being well adapted to serve a purpose does not have this problem, as it would be format independent and wouldn't even require a digital representation at all. It simply scales in ways FSCO/I cannot. Again, a watch is well adapted to the purpose of telling time. A rock is not, despite the fact that you can use it to tell time as a sundial. We are well adapted to use a rock to tell time, not the rock. I don't even need to appeal to Auto CAD, etc.
As for designing a bacterium, I suggest, start with Venter et al and go on from there to more advanced technology ...
Again, it seems like your objection isn't that the shoe does not fit, but that you just only want to wear it when it's convent for you.
... that will not change the point that the relevant information, knowledge, design decisions, system architecture etc would have been in the intelligence of the designer before it would be put on the ground.
So, the designer is well adapted for the purpose of designing bacterium. You cannot change it significantly without a corresponding significant reduction in its ability to design bacterium. It has the appearance of design. In my example, the printer is sent a recipe that will print the bacterium. However that recipe cannot just contain the vehicle aspect of the bacterium. If it did, the bacterium would wear out and a new bacterium would need to be printed. Right? But we do not see bacterium rolling out of bacterium factories. Rather the printer is sent a design that contains the bacterium vehicle, replicator and the recipe the replicator will use to make copies of itself. Specially, there are two physical instantiations of the same design. The first design will construct the first bacterium via the 3D printer. The second design will eventually be used by the bacterium to "print" copies of itself. The first design must contain the second design so it will be printed into the first bacterium. Not accounting for errors, regardless if the printer or the bacterium does the “printing”, the result would be a new bacterium. Right? So, the knowledge in the bacterium would reflect the same knowledge in the designer's design. It's just translated to work with the printer to print the first bacterium. That knowledge is constructor independent, but still is instantiated either in the design of the first bacterium printed using the printer or the recipe in the genome of the bacterium. To use an analogy, Apple is transitioning from Intel CPUs to their custom ARM CPU. Existing Applications compiled to use Intel CPUs can be run on ARM CPUs - they may run slower. How does this work? When an application is launched the binary's Intel instructions are translated to use corresponding ARM instructions on the fly, which allows the application to run on the ARM CPU. This is the interoperability of information, specific in the field of computation. Both the Intel and ARM CPUs are universal Turing machines. So, we have two different instantiations of the same underlying application. When run, they are effectively the same knowledge. Now, imagine someone wrote If that knowledge reflects the appearance of design in the bacterium, then it also reflects the appearance of design in the designer. Both reflect being well adapted to serve a purpose.
The assembly of a bacterium would be manufacturing, not strictly design, which is conceptual, that is not contradictory, you are raising needless rhetorical obstacles. And so forth. KF
The bacterium is well adapted for the purpose of manufacturing copies of themselves. It must be able to manufacture copies of itself by self-assembling another bacterium. That recipe must be in the design of the first bacterium printed. If the very same recipe sent by to the printer, to print the first bacterium, did not contain the the recipe the bacterium will eventually use, then how did it end up in the first bacterium when it was initially printed? Where did it come from? critical rationalist
How life changes itself: the Read-Write (RW) genome. - 2013 Excerpt: Research dating back to the 1930s has shown that genetic change is the result of cell-mediated processes, not simply accidents or damage to the DNA. This cell-active view of genome change applies to all scales of DNA sequence variation, from point mutations to large-scale genome rearrangements and whole genome duplications (WGDs). This conceptual change to active cell inscriptions controlling RW genome functions has profound implications for all areas of the life sciences. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23876611 Evolution With and Without Multiple Simultaneous Changes William A. Dembski - June 29, 2022 Excerpt: Granted, (James) Shapiro is not a fan of intelligent design. But in personal conversation I’ve found him more anti-Darwinian, if that were possible, than my intelligent design colleagues. Specifically, I (William Dembski) remarked to him that I thought the Darwinian mechanism offered at least some useful insights. (James) Shapiro responded by saying that Darwin’s effect on biology was wholly negative. https://evolutionnews.org/2022/06/evolution-with-and-without-multiple-simultaneous-changes/
bornagain77
Kairosfocus: , typified by algorithmic code in string data structures in the cell. Code as in what computer programmers do is not at all like what is seen in DNA. In DNA there are no loops or if-then-else constructs. DNA does no exhibit input and output functions. DNA does not write things to memory or send things to a printer. JVL
as to:
Harvard’s Richard Lewontin summarized it, organisms ” … appear to have been carefully and artfully designed.” 4 He calls the “perfection of organisms” both a challenge to Darwinism and, on a more positive note, “the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer.” 4. Lewontin, Richard, “Adaptation,” Scientific American. V. 239. No. 3, 1978, pp. 212-230. https://www.icr.org/article/creation-selection-variation Adaptation – by Richard C. Lewontin – 1978 Excerpt: Organisms fit remarkably well into the external world in which they live. They have morphologies, physiologies and behaviors that appear to have been carefully and artfully designed to enable each or­ganism to appropriate the world around it for its own life. It was the marvelous fit of organisms to the environment, much more than the great diversity of forms, that was the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer.,,, ,,, Nevertheless, such a conclusion, even if well founded, would be unsatisfactory, until it could be shown how the innumerable species in­habiting this world have been modified, so as to acquire that perfection of struc­ture and coadaptation which most just­ly excites our admiration." https://dynamics.org/~altenber/LIBRARY/REPRINTS/Lewontin_Adaptation.1978.pdf
I would like to just simply note that the “perfection of organisms”, which is “the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer”, is now known to be far, far, more extreme than Lewontin knew about in 1978 when he wrote those words, As physicist William Bialek stated, "Scientists have identified and mathematically anatomized an array of cases where optimization has left its fastidious mark,,, In each instance, biophysicists have calculated, the system couldn’t get faster, more sensitive or more efficient without first relocating to an alternate universe with alternate physical constants."
William Bialek: More Perfect Than We Imagined - March 23, 2013 Excerpt: photoreceptor cells that carpet the retinal tissue of the eye and respond to light, are not just good or great or phabulous at their job. They are not merely exceptionally impressive by the standards of biology, with whatever slop and wiggle room the animate category implies. Photoreceptors operate at the outermost boundary allowed by the laws of physics, which means they are as good as they can be, period. Each one is designed to detect and respond to single photons of light — the smallest possible packages in which light comes wrapped. “Light is quantized, and you can’t count half a photon,” said William Bialek, a professor of physics and integrative genomics at Princeton University. “This is as far as it goes.” … Scientists have identified and mathematically anatomized an array of cases where optimization has left its fastidious mark, among them the superb efficiency with which bacterial cells will close in on a food source; the precision response in a fruit fly embryo to contouring molecules that help distinguish tail from head; and the way a shark can find its prey by measuring micro-fluxes of electricity in the water a tremulous millionth of a volt strong — which, as Douglas Fields observed in Scientific American, is like detecting an electrical field generated by a standard AA battery “with one pole dipped in the Long Island Sound and the other pole in waters of Jacksonville, Fla.” In each instance, biophysicists have calculated, the system couldn’t get faster, more sensitive or more efficient without first relocating to an alternate universe with alternate physical constants. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2013/03/william-bialek-more-perfect-than-we.html
Dr. Bialek even notes that these findings of perfection are counterintuitive to the Darwinian view of "biological mechanisms as an historical record of evolutionary and developmental compromises".,,,
William Bialek Excerpt: A central theme in my research is an appreciation for how well things ‘work’ in biological systems. It is, after all, some notion of functional behavior that distinguishes life from inanimate matter, and it is a challenge to quantify this functionality in a language that parallels our characterization of other physical systems. Strikingly, when we do this (and there are not so many cases where it has been done!), the performance of biological systems often approaches some limits set by basic physical principles. While it is popular to view biological mechanisms as an historical record of evolutionary and developmental compromises, these observations on functional performance point toward a very different view of life as having selected a set of near optimal mechanisms for its most crucial tasks.,,, The idea of performance near the physical limits crosses many levels of biological organization, from single molecules to cells to perception and learning in the brain, and I have tried to contribute to this whole range of problems. https://www.princeton.edu/~wbialek/wbialek.html William Bialek is the John Archibald Wheeler/Battelle Professor in Physics, and a member of the multidisciplinary Lewis-Sigler Institute for Integrative Genomics, at Princeton University.
And as to the title of Lewontin's article "Adaptation", and to show how widespread 'perfect adaptation' is in biology, in the following study it was found that “There are a surprisingly limited number of ways a network could be constructed to perform perfect adaptation.”,,, Moreover, the "amazing and surprising" outcome of the study is applicable to any living organism or biochemical network of any size.,,,”
Math sheds light on how living cells 'think' - May 2, 2018 Excerpt: "Proteins form unfathomably complex networks of chemical reactions that allow cells to communicate and to 'think' --,,, "We could never hope to measure the full complexity of cellular networks -- the networks are simply too large and interconnected and their component proteins are too variable. "But mathematics provides a tool that allows us to explore how these networks might be constructed in order to perform as they do.,,, Dr Araujo's work has focused on the widely observed function called perfect adaptation -- the ability of a network to reset itself after it has been exposed to a new stimulus. "An example of perfect adaptation is our sense of smell," she said. "When exposed to an odour we will smell it initially but after a while it seems to us that the odour has disappeared, even though the chemical, the stimulus, is still present. "Our sense of smell has exhibited perfect adaptation. This process allows it to remain sensitive to further changes in our environment so that we can detect both very faint and very strong odours. "This kind of adaptation is essentially what takes place inside living cells all the time. Cells are exposed to signals -- hormones, growth factors, and other chemicals -- and their proteins will tend to react and respond initially, but then settle down to pre-stimulus levels of activity even though the stimulus is still there. "I studied all the possible ways a network can be constructed and found that to be capable of this perfect adaptation in a robust way, a network has to satisfy an extremely rigid set of mathematical principles. There are a surprisingly limited number of ways a network could be constructed to perform perfect adaptation.,,, Professor Lance Liotta, said the "amazing and surprising" outcome of Dr Araujo's study is applicable to any living organism or biochemical network of any size.,,, https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180502094636.htm
And seeing that Darwinian processes are excellent at breaking things, and are miserable at creating things, much less perfecting things,
Michael Behe: Darwin Devolves - Eric Metaxas interviews biochemist Michael Behe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNe-syuDJBg
,,, then I hold that this widespread "perfect adaptation' and/or “perfection of organisms”, which is “the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer”, is far, far, stronger today than it was in 1978 when Lewontin wrote his article "Adaptation".
Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
bornagain77
Kairosfocus @341,
Complex design comes from competent, intelligently directed configuration, here, typified by algorithmic code in string data structures in the cell. The source of such is well known, just ideologically unwelcome in this context.
Yes, exactly! A few years ago, I posed a question something like this: "If you're in a desert and find a stack of three stones, is this enough to determine that an intelligent agent stacked the stones?" A participant here with experience in desert regions commented that even two stones stacked on each other indicated intelligent intervention! This despite thousands of random, purposeless earthquakes, wind, and some floods. So, if one finds a watch in a desert, there's no question of whether it was designed, even though the designer is not present. But a finding a leopard lizard or kangaroo rat that's FAR more complex in its behavioral programming, organs, and cellular machinery results in a Darwinist claiming that it MUSTA "evolved" naturally--and that without any observable or repeatable mechanism nor any novel component that can be shown to be only partly functional. MUSTA is nothing but a leap of faith! And then one can ask HOW the DNA evolved (presumably from RNA which in turn MUSTA evolved from primordial soup)? And how did chromosomes, epigenetics, and the nuclear envelope evolve? All of these are answered using the Darwinist gods-of-the-gaps, MUSTA, MIGHTA, and EMERGED. The Darwinist bio-alchemists then hide behind the dark magician's cloak of billions of years and a mythical lost recipe. In other words science fantasy. -Q Querius
Querius, You're still missing the basic idea. Machines can never exist without people to make them. You seem to be enthralled with "modern." "... the most modern methods start with a 3D model..." Again, I am running a prestigious design studio. I give my designers an assignment. I expect drawings the next day. On paper. I've seen this process in action. As the project head, there will be NO 3-D models until the best design is chosen. You make machines sound like they're intelligent. They aren't. Just like computers being used instead of pencil and paper to draw with. If you have no skill, the computer will not do the job for you. You are far more likely to make bad choices. You - not any machine - had better thoroughly understand design principles and THINK - on your own. I understand deadlines, but leaving more and more non-thinking to machines creates the idea that the actual designers can do less actual thinking. The pressure of coming up with ideas - on your own - unaided is like building a muscle. The more you do it the stronger your design muscles become. Design work is not like mathematics where only one answer is possible. A lot of things were invented without computer aids. relatd
AF, after decades of attempting to deny recognition of design, now we see oh the issue is source. Complex design comes from competent, intelligently directed configuration, here, typified by algorithmic code in string data structures in the cell. The source of such is well known, just ideologically unwelcome in this context. There is but one empirically warranted source, coders and hardware designers for required hardware. We even see practitioners, Venter et al. The denial in the face of manifest evidence exposes the ideology. KF kairosfocus
Relatd @332,
You are completely missing the big picture. Before Computer Aided Design there was pencil and paper – still is the case. The idea for any design was committed to paper, parts were described, engineering drawings/blueprints were made and these were sent on to machine shops for fabrication.
Actually, I'm very familiar with CAD/CAM/CAE having used it in my professional work, teaching, and consulting since 1980 in for several applications--and even after I "retired."
The problem with so-called unguided evolution is that a BLIND watchmaker can make a watch with nothing to work with. Evolution has NO brain, and NO goals.
Yes, I agree completely.
If I was teaching a Design/Engineering class today, I would tell all students to put away their laptops, hand out pencils and paper, and give them a design assignment. That is still being done at a premiere design company today.
There are some good reasons to do this, foremost is an understanding that a drawing is both a communication tool (a machinist's "language") and a contractual (legal) document. However, the most modern methods start with a 3D model, or even with a spreadsheet in some cases and this is a completely different process!
“automated design iteration”? Seriously?
Yes, seriously. See the following for examples. https://www.autodesk.com/solutions/generative-design https://www.ptc.com/en/technologies/cad/generative-design For example, I worked with our local city manager for employing generative design in city planning. He was completely blown away by the results!
No machine can invent. And even with programs that exist – made by people – to assist, they contain no brain and no creativity.
More or less true, but "machines" can apply and enforce design rules and behavioral specifications. They do this very well, but the "design intelligence" is built into the program by external sources of designers/programmers. -Q Querius
Q, information is readily defined and measured, this is part of telecommunications theory, that is where bits comes from. Design is intelligently directed configuration, and it can be inferred from reliable signs developed through inductive study of a wide enough set of cases. What has happened is that through willful selective hyperskepticism, what is well established has been made to seem obscure. As for the philosophical, logic is a main branch of philosophy so it cannot be escaped, just not done carefully. KF kairosfocus
Relatd: How did unguided evolution invent body plans? Via a process of inheritable variation and cumulative selection. As I have already mentioned many times the book Some Assembly Required by Neil Shubin describes several well documented cased of development of major body parts. I know you won't read it but you should stop asking for evidence if you're not willing to consider it. JVL
JVL at 336, How did unguided evolution invent body plans? relatd
Ralatd: Can unguided evolution show “… actual observations of some biological structure being designed”? Why would an unguided evolution supporter see observations of biological structures being designed? JVL
Suppose a committed atheist holds that consciousness, free will, and design in nature are all Illusions. So, what we have then is an illusionary "I" that does not go with the illusion that he freely chooses to hold that design in nature is but an illusion. Origenes
JVL at 333, Can unguided evolution show "... actual observations of some biological structure being designed"? relatd
Kairosfocus: ID was long since defined as the scientific research programme that investigates whether entities can and do have in them observable, reliable signs of design. Can you link to an ongoing ID research programme or an ID research agenda? in real science, claims need to be warranted through empirical observation. What empirical observations can you offer that show that any biological structure was designed? Not similar things, not analogies but actual observations of some biological structure being designed. JVL
Querius at 330, You are completely missing the big picture. Before Computer Aided Design there was pencil and paper - still is the case. The idea for any design was committed to paper, parts were described, engineering drawings/blueprints were made and these were sent on to machine shops for fabrication. The problem with so-called unguided evolution is that a BLIND watchmaker can make a watch with nothing to work with. Evolution has NO brain, and NO goals. If I was teaching a Design/Engineering class today, I would tell all students to put away their laptops, hand out pencils and paper, and give them a design assignment. That is still being done at a premiere design company today. "automated design iteration"? Seriously? No machine can invent. And even with programs that exist - made by people - to assist, they contain no brain and no creativity. relatd
Alan Fox @324,
My comment 267 does not quote Querius, it is my interpretation.
So isn't it odd that you would add quotation marks around my misrepresented quote and then ask Relatd whether he agreed? Oops, busted! -Q Querius
Critical Rationalist @298,
Kairosfocus: "The design description of the analogue watch reduces it to bits, compare AutoCAD."
Critical Rationalist: This is incredibly vague. You don’t need to use AutoCad to describe a watch. You can draw it on a piece of paper. The means by which you choose convert it to digital would result in wildly varying number of bits. Parametric? Polygons? 2D vectors? Neural radiance fields? You could simply describe it to someone. In all cases, the end result will be well adapted to the purpose of telling time.
No, it isn't vague, and here's the problem. An AutoCAD drawing or model of a watch is NOT the watch. It cannot tell time and its function is to communicate design intent and manufacturing instructions to a machinist or to be converted into G-code for CNC manufacture . . . or for a rendering in an advertisement . . . or to illustrate a design proposal . . . or to check for mechanical interferences or other analysis. AutoCAD (or any CAD system) is functional code created by programmers for execution on a computer for use as a symbolic visual representation along with any attached data to the component parts. As such, it's a "visual language" created with double-precision floating-point accuracy for additional analysis and computation. Some CAD models also support "parametric design constraints" that establish geometric and numeric relationships between geometric and data elements. Such models can be versioned by changing the numbers in an associated spreadsheet. So, yes! Such a 2D CAD drawing or 3D model is coded, structured information and a design language that's comparable to (a) the interaction between organisms and their ecosystems (i.e. epigenetics), and (b) design data extracted for the biological equivalent to automated design iteration (as in "generative design" technology) and with automated manufacturing (as in DNA). -Q Querius
Evolution explains zero - less than zero. God creates designs. He builds living things. He creates without using pre-existing matter. Origin of Life claims that inorganic chemicals can spontaneously become organic - with zero demonstration of such today. Evolution cannot explain the origin of any body plan. The how aspect boils down to assertions without step by step explanations of how a gain of information occurs or the apparent and obvious design present in all living things. relatd
I have a sock launcher locked on your position. Don’t make me use it…
Well, you have nothing in the way of evidence or reasoned argument, so fire away. Alan Fox
Anyway, moving on... Design, real or imagined, is not the issue. The question is what is the source of design in biological entities. Evolution explains what designs, when design happens and how it happens. ID proponents spend most of their time knocking over straw-men un an effort to deny the facts of evolution and none in explaining how "Intelligent Design" is supposed to work. Alan Fox
AF at 325, I have a sock launcher locked on your position. Don't make me use it... relatd
The deliberate misquote is simply being brushed off as inconsequential, but it was obviously being used to bait Relatd against me. This is a pathetic and deplorable tactic.
Motes and beams. Alan Fox
Your point with this seems to be that because you quote Querius correctly in #264, it should be no problem that you misquote him in #267
My comment 267 does not quote Querius, it is my interpretation. My mistake was to take my lead from the style most ID proponents adopt here, who set rather a low bar for civility and integrity. Alan Fox
Origenes @290,
Your point with this seems to be that because you quote Querius correctly in #264, it should be no problem that you misquote him in #267. Is that your idea?
The deliberate misquote is simply being brushed off as inconsequential, but it was obviously being used to bait Relatd against me. This is a pathetic and deplorable tactic. -Q Querius
Kairosfocus @300,
PM1, I suggest you ponder Mr Dawkins’ observation that biology studies complex entities that appear to have been designed, but in his view were created by a BLIND watchmaker, an obvious allusion to Paley . . .
Yes, exactly. See above. -Q Querius
Kairosfocus @287, PyrrhoManiac1 @ 291 Okay, I think the following statements deserve to be differentiated: 1. Querius: “If it looks designed, let’s study it as if it were designed.” This represents the ID approach to poorly understood biological structures, features and cycles. Pragmatically, this approach has been far more successful than the continuously revised, racist science fantasy called Darwinism. In contrast, imagine someone trying to reverse engineer a watch, where each new gear supposedly evolved as a “hopeful monster” within the movement. 2. Kairosfocus: “if it shows known, reliable observable signs of design, then it is reasonable to acknowledge that design is a very good candidate explanation.” This is a philosophical inference involving two poorly understood concepts: a. what is information and how can it be measured, and b. what is design and how can it be measured or detected. The onus is on the skeptic because they haven’t ever shown a repeatable instance of spontaneous increase in design complexity. This was tacitly admitted by Dawkins and also noted by PyrroManiac1. For example, few people advocate that watches or jet aircraft formed spontaneously from natural causes, yet biological systems are FAR more complex than these, but supposedly formed spontaneously. -Q Querius
Ba77, Here's the problem. People are fine with alien beings - who we have never seen - and science fiction stories about them. When it comes to a Supreme Designer, there's a problem. He sounds too much like God. For them, the evidence for design can be crystal clear but they must look away. They might see themselves as they really are. relatd
Live link:
Adaptation - by Richard C. Lewontin - 1978 Excerpt: Organisms fit remarkably well into the external world in which they live. They have morphologies, physiologies and behaviors that appear to have been carefully and artfully designed to enable each or­ganism to appropriate the world around it for its own life. It was the marvelous fit of organisms to the environment, much more than the great diversity of forms, that was the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer.,,, https://dynamics.org/~altenber/LIBRARY/REPRINTS/Lewontin_Adaptation.1978.pdf
bornagain77
Asauber @274
Look! A paragraph full of assertions! Wow! How do they do it?
Yes, this lack of supporting information seems so common in many (not all) skeptical posts that it made me conclude that some skeptics seem to believe that their unsupported assertions constitute irrefutable truth. Or maybe that some are simply trollbots that generate assertions. -Q Querius
"Do you think Richard Dawkins yells at flowers as he walks by? “You are not designed! You are not designed!” Relatd, I hope he allows himself to enjoy them. That's one of the reasons they are there. Andrew asauber
Andrew, Do you think Richard Dawkins yells at flowers as he walks by? "You are not designed! You are not designed!" relatd
"More nonsense peddling. It was Richard Dawkins who said that living things only look designed. They are not actually designed. This is in conflict with observed reality." Relatd, And PM1 takes it a step farther. I think he claims he doesn't see the appearance of design at all, because he has defined it out of existence. But he can correct me if I'm wrong about what he thinks. ;) Andrew asauber
CR at 298, More nonsense peddling. It was Richard Dawkins who said that living things only look designed. They are not actually designed. This is in conflict with observed reality. relatd
PM1:
one would need a general theory of design that explains what human-built artifacts have in common with beaver dams and spider webs
No, only recognition that designers exist, act and produce observable artifacts in sufficient numbers that we may see patterns. The base of artifacts we have seen creation of is in the trillions. Those observed patterns are well known and give the answer you obviously wish to not admit. Namely, yes. Precisely the patterns long since recognised at common sense level since Cicero's remarks on random text, which have been given greater precision over several decades. These patterns are evident in life, such as in algorithmic, string data structure, complex symbolic information in the cell. They are also present in the world of life in fine tuning connected to enabling cell based life. Consequently, for cause, we may freely take the design inference seriously. KF kairosfocus
"I’m still flummoxed at your insistence that you know my own mind better than I do." PM1, I don't know your mind better than you, but I do know that people generally see design in nature, and do not go to extravagant lengths to deny it. You know a lot of philosophy, but do you know people? Not very well, I have to conclude. Andrew asauber
@306
PM1, Deny, deny, deny. Andrew
I'm still flummoxed at your insistence that you know my own mind better than I do. And here I thought the only person who I thought knew me better than I know myself is my wife. Darling, is that you? If so, please get some bagels on your way home from work. Love you! PyrrhoManiac1
Lewontin’s abstract for article.
ADAPTATION is exemplified by "industrial melanism" in the peppered moth (Biston betu­ laria). Air pollution kill the lichens that would normally colonize the bark of tree trunks. On the dark, lichenless bark of an oak tree near Liverpool in England the melanic (black) form is better adapted: it is better camouflaged against predation by birds than the light, peppered wild type (top photograph on opposite page), which it largely replaced through natural selec­tion in industrial areas of England in the late 19th century. Now air quality is improving. On a nearby beech tree colonized by algae and the lichen Lecanora conizaeoides, which is itself par­ticularly well adapted to low levels of pollution, the two forms of the moth are equally conspic­uous (middle). On the lichened bark of an oak tree in rural Wales the wild type is almost in­ visible (bottom), and in such areas it predominates. The photographs were made by J. A. Bish­op of the University of Liverpool and Laurence M. Cook of the University of Manc
A case study in genetics or perfectly in sync with ID. So should the ID motto be Let’s Go Moths jerry
Exploring every angle to attack the truth. How very noble. Origenes
@301
You will be mightily disappointed then to read the following:
Not disappointed, only somewhat surprised. I would need to read more Lewontin to know if that line is a concession to a semi-popular audience (the article "Adaptation" appeared in Scientific American) or if he changed his views between 1978 (when that article appeared) and 1985 (when he and Levins published The Dialectical Biologist). PyrrhoManiac1
Actual Lewontin quote from article. He emphasizes the ecology. So does Darwin.
Life forms are more than simply mul­tiple and diverse, however. Organisms fit remarkably well into the external world in which they live. They have morphologies, physiologies and behaviors that appear to have been carefully and artfully designed to enable each or­ganism to appropriate the world around it for its own life. It was the marvelous fit of organisms to the environment, much more than the great diversity of forms, that was the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer. Darwin realized that if a naturalistic theory of evolution was to be successful. it would have to explain the apparent perfection of organisms and not simply their variation. At the very beginning of the Origin of Species he wrote: "In con­sidering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist ...might come to the conclusion that each spe­cies ...had descended, like varieties, from other species. Nevertheless, such a conclusion, even if well founded, would be unsatisfactory, until it could be shown how the innumerable species in­habiting this world have been modified, so as to acquire that perfection of struc­ture and coadaptation which most just­ly excites our admiration."
More from Lewontin
Moreover, Darwin knew that "organs of extreme perfection and complication" were a critical test case for his theory, and he took them up in a section of the chap­ter on "Difficulties of the Theory." He wrote: "To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for ad­mitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest de­gree.
That’s all I read so far but CSI is the issue they cannot get around. Lewontin was 50 years old when he wrote the above. Hardly a kid. The entire issue of Scientific American was about Evolution. It makes no difference what Lewontin wrote afterwards if he cannot provide any justification for any changes in his views. He certainly justified his statements here. But again the diversions are on full display. Don’t deal with the obvious when you can generate nonsense and pretend it’s sophisticated. jerry
"You can know what it is that I see, even though I don’t know what I see? Wow. Well, so much for first-person authority!" PM1, Deny, deny, deny. Andrew asauber
- Harvard's Richard Lewontin summarized it, organisms " … appear to have been carefully and artfully designed." 4 He calls the "perfection of organisms" both a challenge to Darwinism and, on a more positive note, "the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer." 4. Lewontin, Richard, "Adaptation," Scientific American. V. 239. No. 3, 1978, pp. 212-230. https://www.icr.org/article/creation-selection-variation
bornagain77
@294
PM1, Just simple denial on your part. Of course you see it. Andrew
You can know what it is that I see, even though I don't know what I see? Wow. Well, so much for first-person authority! @295
PM1, are there certain observable signs, that reliably indicate design? Why or why not? Empirically, not speculatively.
The short answer is, "I don't know." To answer that, one would need a general theory of design that explains what human-built artifacts have in common with beaver dams and spider webs. I have some guesses as to how one might go about constructing such a theory, but I haven't done the work and I don't know who has. PyrrhoManiac1
It is so easy to hide our ignorance under such expressions as the “plan of creation,” “unity of design,” &c., and to think that we give an explanation when we only re-state a fact. Any one whose disposition leads him to attach more weight to unexplained difficulties than to the explanation of a certain number of facts will certainly reject the theory.
This is incredible irony, the only time the word “design” is used in The Origin of Species. It is facts that destroy Darwin’s theory of Evolution. It is facts that say it is nothing more than modern genetics and essentially a minor observation. Aside: But the basic objective has been accomplished here as the discussion has moved to answering nonsense rather than discuss the obvious. For example, we get nonsense such as
explains what human-built artifacts have in common with beaver dams and spider webs
Answer: All are examples of design. But the commenter knows this but brings it up anyway. And all are illustrations of CSI. jerry
CR, you tried to suggest that a watch is an analogue instrument so bits are irrelevant. I simply pointed out that FSCO/I rich entities are informationally reducible to bits using compact description languages, and gave AutoCAD as a rough illustration. That same point has been made any number of times, it is not just explicit code that is informational and WLOG description can be reduced to bits. As for designing a bacterium, I suggest, start with Venter et al and go on from there to more advanced technology, that will not change the point that the relevant information, knowledge, design decisions, system architecture etc would have been in the intelligence of the designer before it would be put on the ground. Which is actually pretty much basic common sense. The point about functional, configuration based specificity and precision will be obvious to anyone who has needed a particular, hard to find car part. The assembly of a bacterium would be manufacturing, not strictly design, which is conceptual, that is not contradictory, you are raising needless rhetorical obstacles. And so forth. KF kairosfocus
PM1 @296
PM1: Meyer claims that Richard Lewontin would have agreed with Modern Synthesis theorists that living things appear as if they were designed. I would be very interested to see his evidence for that specific claim. …. I think of Lewontin as pretty much single-handedly keeping alive for a whole generation the contrary position!
You will be mightily disappointed then to read the following:
S.Meyer: As Dawkins notes: “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose” (The Blind Watchmaker, 1). Crick likewise explains: “Organisms appear as if they had been designed to perform in an astonishingly efficient way, and the human mind therefore finds it hard to accept that there need be no Designer to achieve this” (What Mad Pursuit, 30). Lewontin also observes that living organisms “appear to have been carefully and artfully designed” (“Adaptation”).
Origenes
PM1, I suggest you ponder Mr Dawkins' observation that biology studies complex entities that appear to have been designed, but in his view were created by a BLIND watchmaker, an obvious allusion to Paley . . . but one where as usual Ch 2 is skipped over. Likewise, it is obvious that Darwin wrote in the context of Paley and that he used artificial selection -- a clear act of design -- as a foil to advance artificial [-->] natural selection. KF kairosfocus
So, again, my question for ID proponents is: what is the origin is that knowledge? Where was it instantiated before the first bacterium existed?
More nonsense. But the text editors will be at work to answer this ludicrous diversion from someone who has not presented anything coherent yet. jerry
The design description of the analogue watch reduces it to bits, compare AutoCAD.
This is incredibly vague. You don't need to use AutoCad to describe a watch. You can draw it on a piece of paper. The means by which you choose convert it to digital would result in wildly varying number of bits. Parametric? Polygons? 2D vectors? Neural radiance fields? You could simply describe it to someone. In all cases, the end result will be well adapted to the purpose of telling time.
FSCO/I is about thresholds of complexity for things where function relies on fairly precise configuration, merely being well adapted is far too vague.
First, it’s being well adapted to serve a purpose, not merely well adapted. Second, see above. Being well adapted to serve a purpose scales. "FSCO/I" does not. But, if you doubt this, create a Venn diagram of "FSCO/I" and "being well adapted to serve a purpose". Where would two circles diverge? IOW, if it's too vague then, by all means, please provide examples.
The zero concessions policy is quite manifest, that any particular objector is not using it does not change its sad reality.
And you lack a zero concessions policy? It's unclear how this can be used in a critical way as it's applicable to, well, everyone. Despite the genome being well adapted, in the form of all those precise configurations, codes and algorithms, you have not used it to change your sad reality? What is the difference between “a fairly precise configuration” and being well adapted to serve a purpose?
Next, your bacterium example is a case of manufacturing not design, observe Paley on the issue of a chain of self replicated entities.
This sentence is self-contradictory, as the design of the bacterium must include its means of self-replication. From the perspective of von-Neumann’s replicator-vehicle, the design of a bacterium cannot just contain the design of the bacterium vehicle as it would eventually wear out and require the designer to print another bacterium. We do not see bacterium appearing out of thin air or rolling out of some designer’s factory. Right? Rather, the design of a bacterium must contain the entire replicator-vehicle, along with the recipe the replicator will use to build copies of it self. After all, the bacterium itself, reflects “a chain of self replicating entitles.” So, the designer would have not only possessed the knowledge of how to convert functional specifications into transformations the printer would use to convert raw materials into a single bacterium, but also the knowledge of how to both convert raw materials into a replicator, in the form of the bacterium itself, and a copy of the recipe as well. If the bacterium did not evolve, as ID claims, then the bacterium came out of the printer with the recipe already present. How did it get into the bacterium, if it wasn’t part of the designer’s design? IOW, the bacterium is effectively a printer of itself. So, any design for the bacterium must have contained the same information, in the form of a recipe, the bacterium would eventually use to make copies of itself - even if instantiated in some other form, or translated - so it would appear in the eventual output of the bacterium when printed. That recipe reflects the very algorithms and specified information you’re referring to in this post. . So, we have a vast amount of knowledge that was instantiated before the first bacterium existed, as part of the bacterium’s design, which according to ID, exhibits the appearance of design. So, again, my question for ID proponents is: what is the origin is that knowledge? Where was it instantiated before the first bacterium existed? IOW, it seems ID's explanation for being well adapted to serve a purpose is, well, being well adapted to serve a purpose. Namely, ID's designer would itself be a complex, knowledge laden entity that exhibits the appearance of design. critical rationalist
I don’t read Darwin as thinking that natural selection assumes that organisms look as if they were designed
More nonsense. You are getting good at writing it. Darwin knew squat about biology and chemistry. So why refer to him at all. He is known for one concept only and that is “natural selection.” And natural selection is a tautology. That’s obvious. Yet, both are used in a single sentence. A tautology from someone who knows nothing is held up in high regard. That should be the focus. jerry
@293 I don't read Darwin as thinking that natural selection assumes that organisms look as if they were designed, and I think that the whole Modern Synthesis (Mayr, Ayala, Dawkins) was a wrong turn in the development of evolutionary theory. Meyer claims that Richard Lewontin would have agreed with Modern Synthesis theorists that living things appear as if they were designed. I would be very interested to see his evidence for that specific claim. It's not something that I got from reading The Dialectical Biologist -- on the contrary, I think of Lewontin as pretty much single-handedly keeping alive for a whole generation the contrary position! PyrrhoManiac1
PM1, are there certain observable signs, that reliably indicate design? Why or why not? Empirically, not speculatively. KF kairosfocus
"we do not even see living things as if they were designed" PM1, Just simple denial on your part. Of course you see it. Andrew asauber
PM1 @291
PM1: And yet people who have been trained in biology, and who have background in complexity theory and theories of self-organizing systems, second-order cybernetics, general systems theory, etc. — we do not even see living things as if they were designed.
Weird, because, as Meyer points out in 'Darwin's Doubt', many famous biologists readily admit that living things have the appearance of being designed.
S.Meyer: Darwinism and modern neo-Darwinism also affirm what neo-Darwinist Richard Dawkins has called the “blind watchmaker” hypothesis. This hypothesis holds that the mechanism of natural selection acting on random genetic variations (and mutations) can produce not just new biological form and structure, but also the appearance of design in living organisms.1 Darwin argued for this idea in The Origin of Species as well as in his letters. Recall the sheep breeding illustration from Chapter 1 where I described how both intelligent human breeders and environmental change (a series of bitterly cold winters) might produce an adaptive advantage in a population of sheep. During the nineteenth century, biologists regarded the adaptation of organisms to their environment as one of the most powerful pieces of evidence of design in the living world. By observing that natural selection had the power to produce such adaptations, Darwin not only affirmed that his mechanism could generate significant biological change, but that it could explain the appearance of design—without invoking the activity of an actual designing intelligence. In doing so, he sought to refute the design hypothesis by providing a materialistic explanation for the origin of apparent design in living organisms. Modern neo-Darwinists also affirm that organisms look as if they were designed. They also affirm the sufficiency of an unintelligent natural mechanism—mutation and natural selection—as an explanation for this appearance. Thus, in both Darwinism, and neo-Darwinism, the selection/variation (or selection/mutation) mechanism functions as a kind of “designer substitute.” As the late Harvard evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr explains: “The real core of Darwinism . . . is the theory of natural selection. This theory is so important for the Darwinian because it permits the explanation of adaptation, the ‘design’ of the natural theologian, by natural means.”2 Or as another prominent evolutionary biologist, Francisco Ayala, has put it succinctly, natural selection explains “design without a designer.”3 Other contemporary neo-Darwinian biologists including Richard Dawkins, Francis Crick, and Richard Lewontin have also emphasized that biological organisms only appear to have been designed.4 They recognize that many biological structures—whether the chambered nautilus, the compound eye of a trilobite, the electrical system of the mammalian heart, or numerous molecular machines—attract our attention because the sophisticated organization of such systems is reminiscent of our own designs. Dawkins has noted, for example, that the digital information in DNA bears an uncanny resemblance to computer software or machine code.5 He explains that many aspects of livings systems “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”6
Origenes
No, I really don’t understand it
The sad thing is two fold. First, that the remark was made Second, someone or more than one will answer this nonsense. With a long answer. It’s probably already in their text editor. I suggest everyone become intimately familiar with the “Availability Cascade” concept. It would eliminate nonsense like the previous comment. Aside: The original paper on the Availability Cascade is long and tedious. Just read the conclusions. At least to start. jerry
@273
PyrrhoManiac1 @271, Let me ask you if you understand my simple definition of Intelligent Design as “If it looks designed, let’s study it as if it were designed.”
No, I really don't understand it. One of the most persistent features of the discussions at Uncommon Descent is that there are some people who simply don't see living things as if they were designed, and then there are others who cannot help but see living things as if they were designed. At this point it may be helpful to mention a well-known (at least well-known within academic philosophy) critique of empiricism: that what we experience is strongly influenced by (not determined by!) the concepts that we know how to use. As a simple example: someone who knows what a computer is, will experience a computer very differently than someone who has never seen or heard of one. (Not that the latter person would experience nothing, only that her experience would be very different.) We've seen in the conversations here at Uncommon Descent that people who are trained in engineering and computer science see living things as if they were designed -- because that perception is shaped by the conceptual framework they acquired in the course of their education and professional development. And yet people who have been trained in biology, and who have background in complexity theory and theories of self-organizing systems, second-order cybernetics, general systems theory, etc. -- we do not even see living things as if they were designed. (This is perhaps even more pronounced in my case because of decades of reading Aristotle, Kant, Hegel, Hans Jonas, and others who insist on the reality of biological teleology.) As I see it, there is no substance to ID if it were simply, "if it looks designed, treat as if it were designed." ID as a scientific theory of life needs to have some mathematically rigorous, experimentally verified criterion by which to distinguish the limits of what self-organizing systems can accomplish, in order to provide a genuinely objective basis for demarcating systems that are overwhelmingly likely to be have intelligently designed from systems that are probably not. A further complication is that intelligent design needs to be, as well, a theory of intelligence and a theory of design. ID needs to be informed by what we know about what intelligence is, and by what we understand about the principles and practices of good design (design theory). PyrrhoManiac1
Alan Fox @283, Querius Alan Fox, in post #267 you misquote Querius. In #272 Querius points out that you are misquoting him. In #276 I said that "the misquote is reprehensible" and that you must explain yourself. Your response #283:
Alan Fox: Oh please! See my comment 264. That is a direct quote.
Your point with this seems to be that because you quote Querius correctly in #264, it should be no problem that you misquote him in #267. Is that your idea? Origenes
The best illustration of the previous comment is Darwin’s finches. Millions of years and some dramatic niche changes and what do we get. The same finches. Make them the mascot of ID. Instead of Darwin’s Finches, there will be ID’s Finches.       Let’s Go Finches Aside: This will be ignored. But perhaps the short thread at https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/does-the-order-of-nature-point-to-a-divine-mind/#comment-778453 Should be explored. jerry
The foolishness of long involved answers will not do it. Simple illustrations is what will win the argument. The niche which is an ecology will prevent change not be the source of it. It is thousands of stable chemical compounds, environmental conditions as well as life forms. All resisting change. Yes, there are changes but even severe changes in one or several will only allow minor changes in the others. To suggest that simple allele changes will upset this stability in any major way is absurd when all that has been witnessed is the inability for any natural forces to create a new set of alleles but just changes in the frequencies of current alleles. Change is allele frequencies is not Evolution with a capital”E.” It is evolution with a small “e” which ID 100% endorses.      Niches prevent Evolution not cause it. Aside: Natural selection is just what the forces of nature cause, whether it’s a chemical compound, an environmental condition or the allele frequencies of the thousands of life forms. It provides stability. It is what we see in the history of the world. Change, yes, but mostly stability. Nature seems to have built in mechanisms for stability. Natural selection resists anything but very small change. That’s what adaptation is all about. jerry
AF, why not modify, if it shows known, reliable observable signs of design, then it is reasonable to acknowledge that design is a very good candidate explanation. Such as, coded, complex, prong height using* string data structure information in the cell, or a cosmos with heavy fine tuning amenable to C-chem, aqueous medium, cell based life. One, that starts with the first four most abundant elements: H, He, O, C which get us stars, gateway to the rest of the periodic table, water, organic chem. Bring on N and a sprinkling of other elements and we have proteins, carbohydrates/sugars [base of DNA and RNA], fats/oils, cellulose, and more. No wonder Sir Fred Hoyle thought someone had monkeyed with physics. KF * Similar to a Yale type, pin tumbler lock. Which, is thus a string data structure. PS, Hoyle's key remark:
>>[Sir Fred Hoyle, In a talk at Caltech c 1981 (nb. this longstanding UD post):] From 1953 onward, Willy Fowler and I have always been intrigued by the remarkable relation of the 7.65 MeV energy level in the nucleus of 12 C to the 7.12 MeV level in 16 O. If you wanted to produce carbon and oxygen in roughly equal quantities by stellar nucleosynthesis, these are the two levels you would have to fix, and your fixing would have to be just where these levels are actually found to be. Another put-up job? . . . I am inclined to think so. A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has "monkeyed" with the physics as well as the chemistry and biology, and there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. [F. Hoyle, Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics, 20 (1982): 16.]>> . . . also, in the same talk at Caltech: >>The big problem in biology, as I see it, is to understand the origin of the information carried by the explicit structures of biomolecules. The issue isn't so much the rather crude fact that a protein consists of a chain of amino acids linked together in a certain way, but that the explicit ordering of the amino acids endows the chain with remarkable properties, which other orderings wouldn't give. The case of the enzymes is well known . . . If amino acids were linked at random, there would be a vast number of arrange-ments that would be useless in serving the pur-poses of a living cell. When you consider that a typical enzyme has a chain of perhaps 200 links and that there are 20 possibilities for each link,it's easy to see that the number of useless arrangements is enormous, more than the number of atoms in all the galaxies visible in the largest telescopes. [ --> 20^200 = 1.6 * 10^260] This is for one enzyme, and there are upwards of 2000 of them, mainly serving very different purposes. So how did the situation get to where we find it to be? This is, as I see it, the biological problem - the information problem . . . . I was constantly plagued by the thought that the number of ways in which even a single enzyme could be wrongly constructed was greater than the number of all the atoms in the universe. So try as I would, I couldn't convince myself that even the whole universe would be sufficient to find life by random processes - by what are called the blind forces of nature . . . . By far the simplest way to arrive at the correct sequences of amino acids in the enzymes would be by thought, not by random processes . . . . Now imagine yourself as a superintellect working through possibilities in polymer chemistry. Would you not be astonished that polymers based on the carbon atom turned out in your calculations to have the remarkable properties of the enzymes and other biomolecules? Would you not be bowled over in surprise to find that a living cell was a feasible construct? Would you not say to yourself, in whatever language supercalculating intellects use: Some supercalculating intellect must have designed the properties of the carbon atom, otherwise the chance of my finding such an atom through the blind forces of nature would be utterly minuscule. Of course you would, and if you were a sensible superintellect you would conclude that the carbon atom is a fix. >> . . . and again: >> I do not believe that any physicist who examined the evidence could fail to draw the inference that the laws of nuclear physics have been deliberately designed with regard to the [--> nuclear synthesis] consequences they produce within stars. ["The Universe: Past and Present Reflections." Engineering and Science, November, 1981. pp. 8–12]>>
Notice, Hoyle [a life long agnostic, so religious bias is off the table as a dismissive gambit] here acknowledges the force of signs of design. kairosfocus
Alan Fox claims that, "The niche environment designs organisms and the process is the change in allele frequency in populations due to selection." Yet Natural Selection is now shown, mathematically and empirically, to be extremely limited in its ability to explain changes in 'allele frequency'.
The waiting time problem in a model hominin population – 2015 Sep 17 John Sanford, Wesley Brewer, Franzine Smith, and John Baumgardner Excerpt: The program Mendel’s Accountant realistically simulates the mutation/selection process,,, Given optimal settings, what is the longest nucleotide string that can arise within a reasonable waiting time within a hominin population of 10,000? Arguably, the waiting time for the fixation of a “string-of-one” is by itself problematic (Table 2). Waiting a minimum of 1.5 million years (realistically, much longer), for a single point mutation is not timely adaptation in the face of any type of pressing evolutionary challenge. This is especially problematic when we consider that it is estimated that it only took six million years for the chimp and human genomes to diverge by over 5 % [1]. This represents at least 75 million nucleotide changes in the human lineage, many of which must encode new information. While fixing one point mutation is problematic, our simulations show that the fixation of two co-dependent mutations is extremely problematic – requiring at least 84 million years (Table 2). This is ten-fold longer than the estimated time required for ape-to-man evolution. In this light, we suggest that a string of two specific mutations is a reasonable upper limit, in terms of the longest string length that is likely to evolve within a hominin population (at least in a way that is either timely or meaningful). Certainly the creation and fixation of a string of three (requiring at least 380 million years) would be extremely untimely (and trivial in effect), in terms of the evolution of modern man. It is widely thought that a larger population size can eliminate the waiting time problem. If that were true, then the waiting time problem would only be meaningful within small populations. While our simulations show that larger populations do help reduce waiting time, we see that the benefit of larger population size produces rapidly diminishing returns (Table 4 and Fig. 4). When we increase the hominin population from 10,000 to 1 million (our current upper limit for these types of experiments), the waiting time for creating a string of five is only reduced from two billion to 482 million years. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4573302/ Why All Critiques of the Waiting Time Problem Fail - Günter Bechly - September 30, 2022 Excerpt: An Ongoing Multidisciplinary Research Project The waiting time problem is the subject of an ongoing multidisciplinary research project funded by Discovery Institute. We have already published the theoretical ground work in two peer-reviewed papers in mainstream science outlets (Hössjer et al. 2018, 2021). An application on the example of whale origins is forthcoming by Bechly et al. (in prep.).,,, the waiting time problem has a long history and has been much discussed in mainstream science (especially population genetics). It even plays an important role in cancer research. They should talk to Harvard professor Martin Nowak, who is an evolutionary biologist and expert on the waiting time problem. Here are just a few references of renowned scientists publishing about this “crazy stuff” as Farina (2022) calls it: Bodmer (1970), Karlin (1973), Christiansen et al. (1998), Schweinsberg (2008), Durrett et al. (2009), Behrens et al. (2012), and Chatterjee et al. (2014). It was not before Behe & Snoke (2004, 2005) and Behe (2007, 2009) that the waiting time problem was recognized as an argument for intelligent design. Durrett & Schmidt (2008) attempted to refute Behe but arrived at a prohibitive waiting time of 216 million years for a single coordinated mutation in human evolution,,, https://evolutionnews.org/2022/09/fossil-friday-walking-whales-and-why-all-critiques-of-the-waiting-time-problem-fail/ More from Ann Gauger on why humans didn’t happen the way Darwin said – July 2012 Excerpt: Each of these new features probably required multiple mutations. Getting a feature that requires six neutral mutations is the limit of what bacteria can produce. For primates (e.g., monkeys, apes and humans) the limit is much more severe. Because of much smaller effective population sizes (an estimated ten thousand for humans instead of a billion for bacteria) and longer generation times (fifteen to twenty years per generation for humans vs. a thousand generations per year for bacteria), it would take a very long time for even a single beneficial mutation to appear and become fixed in a human population. You don’t have to take my word for it. In 2007, Durrett and Schmidt estimated in the journal Genetics that for a single mutation to occur in a nucleotide-binding site and be fixed in a primate lineage would require a waiting time of six million years. The same authors later estimated it would take 216 million years for the binding site to acquire two mutations, if the first mutation was neutral in its effect. Facing Facts But six million years is the entire time allotted for the transition from our last common ancestor with chimps to us according to the standard evolutionary timescale. Two hundred and sixteen million years takes us back to the Triassic, when the very first mammals appeared.,,, http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/more-from-ann-gauger-on-why-humans-didnt-happen-the-way-darwin-said/ Genome-wide analysis of a long-term evolution experiment with Drosophila – 2010 Excerpt of concluding paragraph: “Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles. This is notable because in wild populations we expect the strength of natural selection to be less intense and the environment unlikely to remain constant for ~600 generations. Consequently, the probability of fixation in wild populations should be even lower than its likelihood in these experiments.” https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311852574_Genome-wide_analysis_of_long-term_evolutionary_domestication_in_Drosophila_melanogaster “The Third Way” – James Shapiro, Denis Noble, etc.. etc..,,, Excerpt: “some Neo-Darwinists have elevated Natural Selection into a unique creative force that solves all the difficult evolutionary problems without a real empirical basis.” http://www.thethirdwayofevolution.com/
In fact, because of such a limited ability for natural selection to explain 'allele frequency', many leading Darwinists who are aware of these problems, (and other problems), for natural selection have opted for 'neutral theory', wherein natural selection has been cast to the wayside as a major driving force.
Austin Hughes and Neutral Theory – Laurence A. Moran – June 19, 2017 Excerpt: Originally proposed by Motoo Kimura, Jack King, and Thomas Jukes, the neutral theory of molecular evolution is inherently non-Darwinian. Darwinism asserts that natural selection is the driving force of evolutionary change. It is the claim of the neutral theory, on the other hand, that the majority of evolutionary change is due to chance. https://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2017/06/austin-hughes-and-neutral-theory.html
So, according to some leading Darwinists, the design we see in life is not to be considered the result of natural selection but is now considered to be the result of pure chance? with natural selection playing a very negligible role, if any role at all? Even Richard Dawkins himself finds this claim to be patently absurd. In the following video Dawkins states that the appearance of design in life, “cannot come about by chance. It's absolutely inconceivable that you could get anything as complicated or well designed as a modern bird or a human or a hedgehog coming about by chance. That's absolutely out.,,, It's out of the question.,,,"
4:30 minute mark: "It cannot come about by chance. It's absolutely inconceivable that you could get anything as complicated or well designed as a modern bird or a human or a hedgehog coming about by chance. That's absolutely out.,,, It's out of the question.,,, So where (does the appearance of design)) it come from? The process of gradual evolution by natural selection.” Richard Dawkins - From a Frog to a Prince - video https://youtu.be/ClleN8ysimg?t=267
To put it even more bluntly than Richard Dawkins did, Jay Homnick states, “Once you allow the intellect to consider that an elaborate organism with trillions of microscopic interactive components can be an accident… you have essentially “lost your mind.”
“It is not enough to say that design is a more likely scenario to explain a world full of well-designed things. It strikes me as urgent to insist that you not allow your mind to surrender the absolute clarity that all complex and magnificent things were made that way. Once you allow the intellect to consider that an elaborate organism with trillions of microscopic interactive components can be an accident… you have essentially “lost your mind.” Jay Homnick – American Spectator 2005
Contrary to what proponents of neutral theory may want to believe, with natural selection cast to the wayside as the supposed designer substitute for the appearance of design we see in life, then the explanation for that 'appearance of design' in life does not automatically default to pure chance as the explanation for life but instead the explanation reverts back to the original assumption that life is designed since it appears to be designed. As Richard Sternberg states, “Darwinism provided an explanation for the appearance of design, and argued that there is no Designer — or, if you will, the designer is natural selection. If that’s out of the way — if that (natural selection) just does not explain the evidence — then the flip side of that is, well, things appear designed because they are designed.”
“Darwinism provided an explanation for the appearance of design, and argued that there is no Designer — or, if you will, the designer is natural selection. If that’s out of the way — if that (natural selection) just does not explain the evidence — then the flip side of that is, well, things appear designed because they are designed.” - Richard Sternberg – Living Waters documentary Whale Evolution vs. Population Genetics – Richard Sternberg and Paul Nelson – (excerpt from Living Waters video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0csd3M4bc0Q
Verse:
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
bornagain77
AF, you are invited to provide empirical actual observation that warrants the existence of a prior, RNA based life architecture, with a minimum of speculation and without resort to speculations that entities such as Ribosomes, mRNA, tRNA and DNA which are all part of the protein world, have unobserved ancestors. As part of that answer, account for homeostasis and linked smart gated encapsulation, also replication from one generation to the next, with metabolism of energy and materials. Prediction, you cannot do so, hence justifying, imaginary RNA worlds. AKA dressing ideological imposition in a lab coat. KF kairosfocus
...imaginary RNA worlds.
Yet you are full of it. RNA, I mean. Alan Fox
Alan Fox must explain himself. As it stands now, the misquote is reprehensible.
Oh please! See my comment 264. That is a direct quote. Alan Fox
PS, once truth is a focal aim of science, identifying a state of affairs on reliable science is valid. Newton made no premature speculations about inverse square law gravitation. He just identified its unrivalled explanatory power and sealed the deal on a major scientific revolution. We cannot responsibly impose criteria for scientific advances that would lock out a key case like that. And of course, history and philosophy of science, thus historians and philosophers, have their voice and vote too. While mechanisms of origin or operation are desirable, they are not demarcation criteria. In the case of origins sciences, it is clear that blind chemical evolution has put forward unsubstantiated speculation and that OoL is pointing to dubious mechanisms such as imaginary RNA worlds. Likewise, origin of main body plans is being "explained" on grossly inadequate incremental chance variation and differential reproductive success that fails to understand things like, there is no incremental path between Hello world code and an operating system or office productivity suite. In short, unwarranted extrapolation of a means of modest adaptation into a grand origins just so story. Meanwhile, you have studiously side stepped the fact of actual design of modified life forms in molecular nanotech labs by the like of a Venter. Yes, intelligent design is a fact and we know from personal experience and observation, not to mention patent law that it is no lame -- latest dismissive loaded word fallacy -- assertion to make the obvious note that before putting a design on the ground it is in the imagination of the designer. The story of the elliptical Spitfire wing is a case in point, and the presence of a strategically placed pterostigma on the Dragonfly wing draws out just how significant fine tuning can be. Here, 10 to 25% speed increase through a subtle adjustment to the leading edge. kairosfocus
...you have no good reason to reject a key case in point for such signs of design, found in the core of the world of life.
But I don't reject that living organisms show evidence of a design process. The niche environment designs organisms and the process is the change in allele frequency in populations due to selection. Alan Fox
...it is obvious that there is a substantial definition on the table long since, one that would satisfy any reasonable person.
Seems to me there are as many attempts at definitions of "Intelligent Design" as there are folks offering them. I have to say Querius' attempt is the one I shall treasure. “If it looks designed, let’s study it as if it were designed.” Alan Fox
AF & circle, it is obvious that there is a substantial definition on the table long since, one that would satisfy any reasonable person. One wonders if you instead would put up a loaded misdefinition such as was attempted in courts and in the hostile press. Thus, it is clear that, yet again, we are seeing a tangent tactic. Meanwhile, after months, you have no good reason to reject a key case in point for such signs of design, found in the core of the world of life. Namely, the living cell. For, in it we find string data structure, complex algorithmic coded information. That is actually decisive on merits but merits often do not prevail in the teeth of power backed ideological agendas, ruthless agit prop, lawfare and linked polarisation. Divide and [mis-]rule is an ancient tactic. One that often works in the short term but in the end is self defeating and ruinous. KF kairosfocus
“If it looks designed, let’s study it as if it were designed.”
OK, then, Querius, explain how you study something as if it were designed. Bear in mind that evolutionary biologists already study the process of design by the environment. They would seem to way ahead of ID "scientists" (whoever they may be) in establishing how, when, and where the evolutionary design takes place. What additional insights will your approach bring? Alan Fox
Origenes @276,
Alan Fox must explain himself. As it stands now, the misquote is reprehensible.
Sadly true. Considering that a copy-paste would have been easy, the misquote seems deliberate and for the purpose of trying to bait Relatd. Nevertheless, let me note that Relatd saw through the ploy and responded with
Time for you to leave. You’re obviously not here to discuss.
I expect that Alan Fox and any sock puppets will certainly remain, but his intentions are clear. I'd also expect that If he has any genuine questions to ask in good faith, people here would be willing to answer them. -Q Querius
Querius @272 Alan Fox Alan Fox must explain himself. As it stands now, the misquote is reprehensible. Origenes
Andrew at 274, Hey. I've got pictures of my great, great, great, etc. grandparents as lemur-like creatures. :) :) relatd
"What you are asking is in fact an interesting question. Rhesus Macaques share s common ancestor with us going back some thirty million years. They are social animals and use vocal communication using a vocabulary of around thirty sounds. NMR studies have shown they have a homologous (to human) region of the brain involved in sound processing, Broca’s area. So the evolution of speech in the human line started millions of years ago. Selection had to favour all the necessary co-adaptive changes, morphological and cognitive, in both speaking and listening. Anatomically modern humans show up around 200,000 years ago, so it’s fair to assume that talking and listening was happening then. What delayed the emergence of cultural evolution for another 180,000 years is (to me at least) a fascinating question." Look! A paragraph full of assertions! Wow! How do they do it? Andrew asauber
PyrrhoManiac1 @271, Let me ask you if you understand my simple definition of Intelligent Design as "If it looks designed, let’s study it as if it were designed." -Q Querius
Alan Fox @264,
That’s it? Your personal wishful thinking? That’s past simple into simplistic.
No, not personal wishful thinking. Since you said you struggled with the definition for "nearly twenty years," I thought you might be able to understand a simple definition of "If it looks designed, let’s study it as if it were designed."
Do you agree with Querius that “it looks designed so it is designed” is the definition of “Intelligent Design”?
Oh, cool! Now you're misquoting me! No, that's NOT what I wrote! Check it for yourself. The difference is significant. So, once again . . . I wrote, "If it looks designed, let’s study it as if it were designed." -Q Querius
Time for you to leave. You’re obviously not here to discuss.
So what? Are you here to discuss? What, if anything, is up for discussion by your lights? PyrrhoManiac1
AF at 269, Time for you to leave. You're obviously not here to discuss. relatd
“Intelligent design refers to a scientific research program"
O'rly! More wishful thinking! Alan Fox
AF at 267, Oh brother. "Intelligent design refers to a scientific research program as well as a community of scientists, philosophers and other scholars who seek evidence of design in nature. The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. Through the study and analysis of a system’s components, a design theorist is able to determine whether various natural structures are the product of chance, natural law, intelligent design, or some combination thereof. Such research is conducted by observing the types of information produced when intelligent agents act. Scientists then seek to find objects which have those same types of informational properties which we commonly know come from intelligence. Intelligent design has applied these scientific methods to detect design in irreducibly complex biological structures, the complex and specified information content in DNA, the life-sustaining physical architecture of the universe, and the geologically rapid origin of biological diversity in the fossil record during the Cambrian explosion approximately 530 million years ago." Source: https://intelligentdesign.org/whatisid/ relatd
Why?
Why what?
You’ve gotten the answer many times.
An answer perhaps. But the answers vary depending on who is answering. Do you agree with Querius that "it looks designed so it is designed" is the definition of "Intelligent Design"? Alan Fox
AF at 265, Why? You've gotten the answer many times. relatd
...designs are present in the intelligent thought and action of the relevant designer before they are put on the ground so to speak.
Is this going to be the lame analogy with human designers?
For example, where was the design behind the text strings of your objection before they were put up in your comment boxes?
What you are asking is in fact an interesting question. Rhesus Macaques share s common ancestor with us going back some thirty million years. They are social animals and use vocal communication using a vocabulary of around thirty sounds. NMR studies have shown they have a homologous (to human) region of the brain involved in sound processing, Broca's area. So the evolution of speech in the human line started millions of years ago. Selection had to favour all the necessary co-adaptive changes, morphological and cognitive, in both speaking and listening. Anatomically modern humans show up around 200,000 years ago, so it's fair to assume that talking and listening was happening then. What delayed the emergence of cultural evolution for another 180,000 years is (to me at least) a fascinating question. Mind you Querius has the simple answer. Looks designed, so it is! Let's not worry about by what, when, where, how and why? Alan Fox
See @246 for a simple definition of ID that apparently has eluded you for nearly twenty years.
Oh, wow, *scrolls back in excited anticipation*.
If it looks designed, let’s study it as if it were designed.
That's it? Your personal wishful thinking? That's past simple into simplistic. Alan Fox
Alan Fox @260, See @246 for a simple definition of ID that apparently has eluded you for nearly twenty years. -Q Querius
AF, first, ID was long since defined as the scientific research programme that investigates whether entities can and do have in them observable, reliable signs of design. Your refusal to take that seriously does not change the fact or the success on the actual merits: there are signs, they are observable in codes and ciphers, they are present in coherent texts, they are present in the cell [see the genetic, protein building code], they are present in body plans, they are present in the cosmos. The import of that is monumental, many features of the natural world are replete with signs that they are a result of intelligently directed configuration, rather than blind wandering about in configuration spaces utterly dominated by seas of non functional gibberish, but with islands of function. Next, the truth is, for months you tried to claim that there is no code in DNA and mRA by extension, all you are doing above is repeating a claim in the teeth of the empirically founded consensus of science over the past seventy years. Indeed, in the teeth of a Nobel Prize winning consensus, cf: https://uncommondescent.com/darwinist-debaterhetorical-tactics/protein-synthesis-what-frequent-objector-af-cannot-acknowledge/ And, as Relatd highlighted: https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/fact-sheets/Chromosomes-Fact-Sheet
Chromosomes are thread-like structures located inside the nucleus of animal and plant cells. Each chromosome is made of protein and a single molecule of deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA). Passed from parents to offspring, DNA contains the specific [--> coded] instructions that make each type of living creature unique.
Third, combining 1 and 2, we readily see why you now want to entertain yourself (fetching popcorn and all) on where did the code come from. The answer, that you skipped over, is obvious: designs are present in the intelligent thought and action of the relevant designer before they are put on the ground so to speak. For example, where was the design behind the text strings of your objection before they were put up in your comment boxes? The triviality of this last goes to the underlying lack of careful consideration behind too many objections. KF kairosfocus
...I keep asking, what is the explanation for the algorithmic code in DNA and mRNA, not a claim that it’s inconvenient.
There's no code, just copying by direct templating due to the hydrogen bond pair matching between adenine and thymine/uracil and between cytosine and guanine. The genetic code, where triplet codons cash out as amino-acid residues, evolved later.
The question is, what is the origin of it? Where was it before some designer supposedly put in in the genomes of organisms? If the explanation for that knowledge is merely “that information was instantiated in some designer” then you have just pushed the problem up a level because the very same knowledge was instantiated in the designer, instead of the biosphere. At which point, the designer has the very same propriety we’re trying to explain in living things.
*gets popcorn* Alan Fox
As is obvious, detractors of ID cannot actually define what they’re mocking.
Isn't that the job of "Intelligent Design" proponents? I've spent nearly twenty years asking what "Intelligent Design" amounts to, the first time directly to Bill Dembski not long after he set up this blog as his "personal playground". I suggested he offer his definition of ID as clarification. Unfortunately due to some glitch, my comment containing the question disappeared and the account I had registered became unusable. Alan Fox
Querius at 258, You're splitting hairs. There's no need. Man is not perfect?! Really??? You appear to hold science up not as a tool to be used but as a kind of god. Don't do that. Science can be corrupted as well. Jesus didn't die for a concept but for all men. relatd
Related @48,
Our religious faith is based on truth. All truth. Do you understand? Some want to believe that “faith” does not contain truth. That it is something completely outside of it.
Yes, and I treasure John 14:6 as well. However, I don't dare mix scientific "truth" with the reality of the Messiah Yeshua, the Word of God. Why? It's because science is always changing. The scientific method as an experimental and intellectual discipline remains the same (and is actually described in in the Bible), but many so-called "truths" such as those I was taught in grade school (for example, that Jupiter has 12 moons and Saturn 10), is not considered truth anymore. Darwin's racist theory continues to implode under the weight of mounting evidence against it, and even the quantum mechanics and astrophysics that I learned in college is obsolete and no longer considered anywhere near "the truth." Additionally . . . • Legal outcomes for the "truth" only approximate justice and are often miscarriages. • Political "truth," if it exists at all, resembles farcical fantasies promoted by groups of people with ulterior motives. Pontius Pilate lamented, "What is truth?" • All human institutions including religion, education, scientific research, benevolent organizations, business, etc. are plagued with phonies, charlatans, corruption, lies, toxic abuses of power, and the power hungry. So, when Yeshua speaks of Himself as THE truth, this is a very profound statement about the nature of our existence. I still love science, but recognize that science should never be syncretized with my faith--or vice versa. -Q Querius
CR, so many points. The design description of the analogue watch reduces it to bits, compare AutoCAD. FSCO/I is about thresholds of complexity for things where function relies on fairly precise configuration, merely being well adapted is far too vague. The zero concessions policy is quite manifest, that any particular objector is not using it does not change its sad reality. Next, your bacterium example is a case of manufacturing not design, observe Paley on the issue of a chain of self replicated entities. The logical first place a design is, is in the imagination and reasoning of the designer, such is a non issue readily seen from where your objection was before it was typed. And so forth. Meanwhile, it is quite clear that objectors have been unable to undermine the algorithmic, complex code in DNA and mRNA in the cell, even as we have seen tangential issue after tangential issue. The reality of coded algorithmic information in the cell speaks for itself. KF kairosfocus
CR at 255, The same old same old. Using a lot of words does not hide the core problem. "... well adapted to serve a purpose." Adapted how? I need to eat today, not 1,000 or a million years from now. I can't wait for some new adaptation. The knowledge you ask about was part of a being that is far, far beyond its human creations. Romans 9:20 "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”' relatd
Observed tested, reliable signs such as FSCO/I [= functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information, “fun-skee”] beyond 500 – 1,000 bits point to design as cause for cases we have not observed.
Are you suggesting the above would not, at a more fundamental level, reflect being well adapted to serve a purpose? The more bits you have, the more well adapted the storage medium is. Furthermore a mechanical watch is analog. It has zero bits in the digital sense. Nor does it self reproduce. So, watches do not have the appearance of design, but a digital watch would? Replicating organisms are even more well adapted to serve a purpose. Or, to rephrase, are things that exhibit FSCO/I not well adapted for a purpose? If you were to create a venn diagram of (1) reliable signs of design and (2) being well adapted to serve a purpose, would anything in (1) fall outside (2)? If so, why? If the order of something is important, that reflects being well adapted, right? We can reformulate "Functional information" as information that plays a causal role when embedded in a storage medium. All of those bits of information in the genomes of living things reflect a storage medium that has been well adapted for the purpose of, well, storing that particular information, allowing it self replicate, etc. If you modified it, it wouldn’t serve that purpose nearly as well. Specifically, it would refer to some other information. Right? Some prior knowledge was used to adapt the medium to have the right bits set. That reflects a copying process. And copying information requires specific physical tasks are possible so the destination medium can, well, become well adapted to hold a copy of that information. So, I'll again ask, in the case of ID’s designer, where was all that knowledge instantiated previously? That instantiation would reflect being well adapted to serve the purpose of designing organisms. If you modified said designer in respect to that instantiated knowledge, it couldn’t serve the purpose of designing those organisms as well. Right? At which point, it's unclear how that designer wouldn't itself have the appearance of design. Explaining being well adapted for a purpose via being well adapted for a purpose is circular. It too would need s designer, etc. IOW, what I’m not hearing is an objection to whether the shoe fits or not. Rather, it seems that you just only want to wear it when it’s convenient.
Meanwhile, we still see a zero concessions policy, here directed against the actual — but obviously ideologically inconvenient — scientific consensus that there is indeed algorithmic code in DNA and mRNA.
Except, I've exhibited no such policy. So, what gives? Rather, I keep asking, what is the explanation for the algorithmic code in DNA and mRNA, not a claim that it's inconvenient. The question is, what is the origin of it? Where was it before some designer supposedly put in in the genomes of organisms? If the explanation for that knowledge is merely "that information was instantiated in some designer" then you have just pushed the problem up a level because the very same knowledge was instantiated in the designer, instead of the biosphere. At which point, the designer has the very same propriety we're trying to explain in living things. As an analogy, hypothetically, imagine I found a computer with an application on it and a 3-D printer. When I boot up the system, it asks me which bacterium I want to print. I pick a specific bacterium and click "OK". The computer sends commands to the printer which indicates how to transforms raw materials into the bacterium. Did I design the bacterium? It's unclear how this is the case as I just ran an existing application that exercised some existing knowledge. The origin of the bacterium is not its proximate cause. It's the knowledge in the computer itself. That's what would need to be explained. So, the question is, what is the origin of the knowledge in the computer? Right? After all, it would be well adapted for the purpose of printing bacterium, not me. Hypothetically, I'm clueless about the design of bacteria. I just clicked a button. Now, I'd point out that the computer, software, etc has affordances that target human beings. Specifically, it refers to concepts like Users, printing, offers the ability to confirm my choices, displays information in English or may even be localized, etc. Only people can create explanatory knowledge. So, people would be the explanation for that knowledge. However, no one person was just born with the knowledge of how to do any of those things. Knowledge grows via variation and criticsm. Or, in the case of people, conjecture and criticism. The knowledge in the system wasn't already present somewhere, such as in the laws of physics, at the outset. That would imply all knowledge comes from the senses, etc. Rather that knowledge would reflect hard earned, decades worth of work by people. So, across the board, the explanation for the knowledge in the system would be variation and criticism. The bacterium has a recipe. Some person would have created the knowledge of how to translate the recipe from instructions the bacterium would execute to a recipe that the printer could execute. This would reflect the interoperability of information (in the same sense that a IBM G3 chip could run an appellation designed for an Intel Xenon chip.) The origin of that original recipe in the bacteria was variation and selection in nature. And the origin of the knowledge in the system itself was conjecture and criticism. So, the entire thing reflects the growth of knowledge. It was genuinely created in that it may not have every existed anywhere but on earth. Furthermore, the system would need to include the recipe for the bacterium in its original form, so the printer could include it as part of the bacterium. Otherwise, the bacterium could not reproduce itself once printed. Right? In the case of ID, where was this knowledge located before it was put into the genomes of organisms? critical rationalist
CR, in addition to matters empirical, there is a logic of being challenge in your arguments about designers. We are designers, empirical fact with your own comments as cases in point of FSCO/I, and we are contingent beings with signs of being designed ourselves. So, were life on earth the product of an ancient biotech lab long since disposed of in Sol, that would just be a similar case of design. However, it is seriously arguable that the cosmos shows signs of design, and we know that a necessary being root of reality is a viable cause of our world. But, there is nothing in being a necessary being that would preclude being an intelligent agent able to direct configuration of entities up to and including say a universe. So, too, the validity of the design inference is separate from the ontological status of the designer in question. KF PS, a necessary being, reality root designer comes up on matters of cosmological design, not design of cell based life. All the way back to Thaxton et al, that was public record in TMLO, 1984. kairosfocus
I doubt that life ever boiled down to a single, self replicating cell
if life evolved naturally, it had to require probably thousands of steps of stable compounds that slowly took on more complicated forms till it evolved into an extremely complicated form we call the first life but was itself just a simple cell. So far no one can isolate one of these thousands of steps, all of which must be stable. All we get is speculation about one or two possibly simple compounds that could be the start of this long process, a process that apparently happened very quickly. Seems a contradiction. jerry
Martin_r, The next time someone claims there are no codes or instructions in a cell, send them this. https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/fact-sheets/Chromosomes-Fact-Sheet relatd
KF
I doubt that life ever boiled down to a single, self replicating cell. Just the need for smart gated encapsulation points to a first big problem.
I completely agree ... moreover, the cell division itself is a highly orchestrated process full of check-points. Of course, that makes sense, you have to make sure, that all the data from mother cell are transferred to daughter cell 1:1. How on earth can you do that without those check-points ? :)))))))) What is worse, Darwinists trying to trick lay public that a cell membrane division occurs by some natural law ... like oil bubbles .... Of course not. Even the simplest bacterial cell is using molecular machines for membrane division. Cell membranes do not divide by itself AT ALL --- they get cut in half by nanomachines !!! martin_r
CR at 249, Nothing was absent in my reply. You seem to be very, very concerned about ID, but not as science. ID as science is well established. And yes, the attributes of the Designer are not reducible to Darwinian processes. In fact, as has been pointed out numerous times by Ba77, the required attributes correspond to existing knowledge about God. The two ideas are not separate. Sure, some want ID to be completely stuck in the lab. But others, like Richard Dawkins, want you to enjoy life by not "worrying" about God who he claims probably does not exist. You see, people are "afraid" of God because He might judge them based on their actions in life. relatd
@Relatd Absent in your reply is pointing out where ID indicates the designer is outside space and time. Try again? critical rationalist
Querius at 247, Our religious faith is based on truth. All truth. Do you understand? Some want to believe that "faith" does not contain truth. That it is something completely outside of it. John 14:6 'Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.' Was Jesus talking about a faith concept as opposed to actual truth? Our "human experience"? Which means what? Something that does not include God? Or man is isolated completely from God? God is off limits since only human understanding, as defined by other humans, is all there is? John 16:13 "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. So the "all the truth" mentioned above does not include all truth? relatd
Relatd @245,
Just because the science called ID doesn’t name the Designer, the average person will.
Average people include Christians, Muslims, and Jews. There are also cosmic humanists and panpsychists who hold different views than those of the Bible, such as a brilliant physics professor with whom I've had some interesting discussions. After retiring, this professor has been on speaking tours promoting his mystical views. He impressed me once when we talked about the maximum practical precision of Pi, depending on application (NASA-JPL uses 16 decimals). My question to him was how many decimal places for Pi is necessary to differentiate between points that are a Planck length apart on the circumference of the known universe. I happen to remember Pi to 78 decimals and wanted to know whether it was sufficient. The professor quickly SOLVED IT out loud in his head. Wow! But his panpsychism was truly weird. A friend of mine claims that such brilliant people often "go gaga" in their later years for some reason. So, you can see why ID pragmatically stays away from any source of the design. Besides, our religious faith is not based on scientific knowledge or a high IQ, but our human experiences. -Q Querius
Kairosfocus @ 243 and Martin_r, As is obvious, detractors of ID cannot actually define what they're mocking. Also unaddressed is their uncritical support for an historically racist, colonialist, and genocidal theory! This is the scientific mask of the Victorian Age and they cannot bring themselves to denounce it, nor Darwin's noxious theories about white supremacy! Since neither Critical Rationalist nor Alan Fox can come up with a coherent definition of Intelligent Design as applied to Biology, let me put forward a simple version:
If it looks designed, let's study it as if it were designed.
That's it. • There's no appeal to the Darwinist gods of the gaps: MUSTA, MIGHTA, and EMERGED. • There's nothing in ID that assigns any particular Designer. • There's no science fantasy, only reverse bio-engineering that consistently leads to breakthroughs. Let me also continue to encourage the rational folks here not to "feed the trolls" who simply splatter vacuous, generic phlegm all over UD topics, somehow believing that their unsupported assertions constitute irrefutable proof. -Q Querius
CR at 232, Back to politics? Darwinism left the lab and became a guide for Communists and others. ID is not some abstract thing. It tells people that they, and all living things, were designed. Period. Once people hear that, what are they supposed to think? The Designer - the source of Design - is nothing? Nobody? Just because the science called ID doesn't name the Designer, the average person will. relatd
Alan Fox
Now you people (Darwinists, biologists, microbiologists, archeologists, paleontologists, anthropologists and all the other “-logists”) have to show us ONLY ONE EXAMPLE of such a system where no intelligence was involved. Classic burden shift. Martin_r makes stuff up and challenges everyone to prove him wrong.
what did I make up ? Could you be more specific ? You asked for intelligent design definition. I gave you one. And it is so simple so even you can understand that ... martin_r
AF & circle, ID as theory is a research programme, which would be defined by core theses; in other forms, it is stated on core focal research questions, as that scientific research programme which seeks to explore and answer the question as to whether entities, processes etc can and do exhibit reliable signs of cause by intelligently directed configuration. As inference, we note a key regularity:
first we must mark out a matter of inductive reasoning and epistemology. Observed tested, reliable signs such as FSCO/I [= functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information, “fun-skee”] beyond 500 – 1,000 bits point to design as cause for cases we have not observed. This is the design INFERENCE.
These are not hard to understand, nor are they unreasonable. Save, to those dedicated to ideologically driven selective hyperskepticism. As a commonplace example, a major metric in telecommunications is signal to noise ratio, which pivots on identifiable differences between signals and noise. Where, those same characteristics obtain for the algorithmic code in the cell that you spent months trying to dismiss. And now we see snide dismissiveness towards engineering. Where it is obviously being forgotten that engineering is applied science, and that engineers therefore have extensive scientific training, involving core and specifically engineering sciences, with of course a fair slice of Mathematics and some economics. The readily accessible answer to the thematic question is, yes, there are several strong signs of design as cause. Some are found in cells, in body plans, and in the physics of the cosmos. Such raises onward, revolutionary questions on the approach we should take to understand the past of origins. It is that challenging of a dominant, deeply flawed and too often domineering school of thought that is the real locus of debates. Meanwhile, we still see a zero concessions policy, here directed against the actual -- but obviously ideologically inconvenient -- scientific consensus that there is indeed algorithmic code in DNA and mRNA. Obviously, for some objectors, evolutionary materialistic scientism and/or fellow travellers comes first, not actual empirically founded evidence. KF kairosfocus
AF & Circle, strawman with ad hom. M_r is simply saying, very reasonably, that in real science, claims need to be warranted through empirical observation. There are trillions of examples of FSCO/I that are observed, in every case they come from intelligently directed configuration, which is backed by needle in haystack, blind wandering in a configuration space issues. Your reaction tells us, you have no counter examples but wish to impose Lewontin's a priori evolutionary materialism and/or fellow travellers. That is ideological question begging. And meanwhile, you have been in similarly ideological denial of the well warranted conclusion that there is complex, string data structure, algorithmic code in DNA and mRNA, showing again how ideology is taking priority over evidence. KF kairosfocus
From KF's link:
The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection.
That's a mission statement, not a definition. Alan Fox
M_r, I doubt that life ever boiled down to a single, self replicating cell. Just the need for smart gated encapsulation points to a first big problem. For, such a complex entity would be vulnerable and needs to be in a protective environment. Where, smart gating and bilipid layers etc show how complex that is instantly, involving many types of molecule already, and soon, we are looking at metabolic, process-flow networks with materials and energy issues. With of course, von Neuman's kinematic self replicator peeking in. KF kairosfocus
Now you people (Darwinists, biologists, microbiologists, archeologists, paleontologists, anthropologists and all the other “-logists”) have to show us ONLY ONE EXAMPLE of such a system where no intelligence was involved.
Classic burden shift. Martin_r makes stuff up and challenges everyone to prove him wrong. Alan Fox
AF & circle, further distractive tangents. As a first step, the Resources Tab, accessible from this and every UD page, for perhaps a decade, has had a page, ID Defined: https://uncommondescent.com/id-defined/ Similarly, almost a year ago, as part of this L%FP series, I discussed the design inference, theory and movement https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/lfp-55-defining-clarifying-intelligent-design-as-inference-as-theory-as-a-movement/ Meanwhile, there is the significance of complex algorithmic, symbol using code in DNA and mRNA to be assessed, in the context of a causal circle including tRNA and asociated enzymes, part of a wider metabolic system in a self replicating cell. KF kairosfocus
KF, these metabolic networks ... I would like to understand, how something like that can evolve by random mutations, copying errors, and trial-error process :)))))))))))) Darwinists believe in never ending series of miracles :))))))))))))) PS: I admit, I am not a chemist, but I would like to understand, how the first self-replicating molecule should have worked .... to keep self-replicating, when you don't have these building blocks floating around ... in other words, when you don't have the materials/compounds needed for the self-replication -- moreover, this self-replicating molecule has to be encapsulated in some membrane and sort of isolated from the outside materials ... martin_r
Alan Fox
Let’s see whether you can provide an accurate definition of ID. Can anyone do that?
Intelligent design definition: A system of multiple parts working in concert for a purpose. So simple.. Now you people (Darwinists, biologists, microbiologists, archeologists, paleontologists, anthropologists and all the other "-logists") have to show us ONLY ONE EXAMPLE of such a system where no intelligence was involved. Of course, your example has to be outside biology - because we consider biology designed. martin_r
Querius
A scientist stands before God in the judgment. God asks the scientist, “Didn’t the complexity of life on earth, especially in yourself as a human cause you to consider the Source of this human from mere clay? The scientist responds, “Pshaw, I can make a human from the elements and compounds found in clay. God replies, “Okay show me.” The scientist says, “Sure, give me some clay.” God replies, “No, make your own clay.”
Haha ... a good one! Never heard before. anyway, there is a small bug ... Darwinian scientist in this joke is lying again ... this time directly in God's face. This Darwinian scientist can't make a simplest life form even if given all "the elements and compounds", let alone to assembly a human out of it :))))))))))))))) PS: this joke perfectly illustrates Darwinism.... they can do anything ... in theory :))))))) martin_r
Let’s see whether you can provide an accurate definition of ID.
Can anyone do that? It would certainly be a useful development to have a definition of what "Intelligent Design" is. Can anyone do that? Alan Fox
Critical Rationalist @229,
According to ID, we exhibit the appearance of design. Which exactly the thing that ID is trying to explain. So, I’m at a loss here as to what I’ve forgotten.
It's amazing to me that someone would try to debunk ID without actually understanding ID. All you've done is torch a strawman. So, how about this for a change? Let's see whether you can provide an accurate definition of ID. We can go from there. -Q Querius
A sad state of affairs. The Designer is outside of space and time and creates without using pre-existing matter.
Can you point to this in the supposedly scientific theory of ID? Last time I checked, ID says nothing about its designer operating outside space and time. Rather, what you seem to be describing is creationism. critical rationalist
Martin_r @223,
CR, replication requires materials and components, properly arranged, oriented and coupled; You know what any replication requires? THE MATERIALS in the first place. Look how many chemical building blocks are freely floating in cytoplasm — just waiting to be used for e.g. replication or similar molecular assembly … All these needful materials ARE ALWAYS AVAILABLE like a miracle :)))))))
Well said! Reminds me of a joke. A scientist stands before God in the judgment. God asks the scientist, "Didn't the complexity of life on earth, especially in yourself as a human cause you to consider the Source of this human from mere clay? The scientist responds, "Pshaw, I can make a human from the elements and compounds found in clay. God replies, "Okay show me." The scientist says, "Sure, give me some clay." God replies, "No, make your own clay." -Q Querius
CR at 229, A sad state of affairs. The Designer is outside of space and time and creates without using pre-existing matter. Again, He is reduced to a man. A very smart man but with capabilities far beyond any man. The Universe and Earth was designed for human life. Viewed from your perspective, things happen spontaneously. How is that possible? Without internal instructions, it is not possible. relatd
CR, the circle is yours. You forget that we are designers and observers.
I have? According to ID, we exhibit the appearance of design. Which exactly the thing that ID is trying to explain. So, I'm at a loss here as to what I've forgotten.
Patterns such as complex fine tuning, functionally specific complex organisation and associated information, applications of linguistic ability. This last points to cases such as composition of extensive original speech or text that reduces that to writing, such as your own.
First, the claim that "the distant past will resemble the past" is just a reformation of the flawed argument that "the future will resemble the past." The future is unlike the past in many ways, which I've addressed earlier in this thread. Second, my own writing refers to other living subjects, designed things, explanatory concepts, etc. The works of Shakespeare refers to human beings, concepts and emotions such as love, loss, betrayal, etc. This reflects explanatory knowledge, which is unique to people. So, only people would be able to create them. IOW, comparing the knowledge in the genomes of living things, which isn't explanatory, to Shakespeare is a highly flawed argument. But, this is a distraction, as your response does not address the criticism presented. Probability claims of alternative theories, which are based of a dubious calculus at best, does not pull the plank out of the ID's eye. Namely that ID's designer would, according to ID, itself exhibit the appearance of design.
PPS: Can you bring yourself to acknowledge that complex, algorithmic code has been identified in the cell? Why or why not?
First, 2+2=4 can be reformulated as 2*2=4. Right? In the same sense, all that complex, algorithmic code can be reformulated into constructor theoretic terms: which physical tasks are possible, which physical tasks are impossible and why. See section 3.2 above. Constructor theory is the generalization / unification of catalysts, information and even quantum computation. It allows us to bring them into fundamental physics. Second, those interactions and complexity reflects being well adapted to serve a purpose. It's a more fundamental description of the vague "Functionally Specified Information", etc. To quote Paley....
If the different parts had been differently shaped from what they are, of a different size from what they are, or placed after any other manner, or in any other order, than that in which they are placed, either no motion at all would have been carried on in the machine, or none which would have answered the use that is now served by it.
What Paley just described, fundamentally, reflects being well adapted to serve a purpose. So, my question is, where was all of those algorithms, etc. before some designer put them in living things? Was it in the designer? If so, it too would have the very same attributes ID is trying to explain in living things. It too would have the appearance of design. How can being well adapted to serve a purpose be the explanation for being well adapted to serve a purpose? If not, then where was it? How did it end up in living things? Did that knowledge just "appear" when the designer created them? But that would reflect spontaneous generation, would it not? At which point it's unclear what we need ID's designer for, as apparently all of that complexity can appear fully formed, spontaneously. critical rationalist
CR, replication requires materials and components, properly arranged, oriented and coupled; requisites of configuration based function. That has to come from somewhere, by adequate cause, so no it is not merely copying a blueprint (passive information) but replication of the means by which a self-sustaining, self replicating entity can proceed with operating now and preparing the next generation.
As von Neumann pointed out, replication cannot merely copy the cell itself to be high-fidelity. If it did, there would be an error catastrophe, as all of the mutations of the cell would be copied. Also error correction must be limited to the blueprint, instead of trying to correct errors across the entire cell, before replication. The scope of the latter would be exponentially greater than applying error correction to the blueprint. Specifically the blueprint is in a format where the information can be corrected, instead of the expressed outcome. From this paper on the constructor theory of life....
3.2 The logic of self-reproduction I shall now apply the results of section 3.1 to self-reproduction, to conclude that no-design laws permit an accurate self-reproducer, provided that it op- erates via what I call, adapting Dawkins’ terminology [7], the replicator- vehicle logic. A self-reproducer S (of the kind (2)) is a constructor for its own construction, from generic resources only. From the argument in 3.1 it follows that for S to be a good approximation to a constructor for another S, it must consist of: a modular replicator, R = (r1,r2,...,rn), instantiating the recipe for S (the elementary units ri have attributes in an information variable ?, corresponding to instructions); a programmable constructor, the vehicle V , executing the recipe blindly, i.e., implementing non-specific sub-tasks. The recipe instantiated by the replicator R must contain all the knowledge about how to construct S, specifying a procedure for its construction. Note, however, that the recipe is in one sense incomplete: as remarked in section 3.1, the recipe is not required to include instructions for the elementary tasks, which occur spontaneously in nature. These are indeed relied upon during actual cell development - they constitute epigenetics and environmental context. As remarked by George C. Williams, “Organisms, wherever possible, delegate jobs to useful spontaneous processes, much as a builder may temporarily let gravity hold things in place and let the wind disperse paint fumes”, [29]. Under no-design laws, maintenance and error-correction are necessary for a high and improvable accuracy to be achieved; and in self-reproduction, crucially, it must be S only that brings about the new instance of S. Therefore, since the maintenance cannot be performed by the laws of physics either, because of the no-design conditions, it must be executed by S. As in the general case of section 3.1, maintenance must be achieved via copying the recipe and constructing the vehicle V. These are enacted, respectively, by two sub-constructors in the vehicle, C and B, which implement the replicator-vehicle logic that von Neumann discovered, [15]. In the construction phase B executes R to construct a new vehicle V : N =? (V,W). In bacteria B includes the mechanisms for constructing the daughter cell, such as the ribosome which uses DNA instructions (translated into RNA) to construct proteins. Blind error-correction is possible via checks on the sub-tasks of the recipe; however, construction errors are not propagated, because the new vehicle is the result of executing the recipe in the replicator, not a copy of the former vehicle. In the copy phase, the blind replication of R is performed by C, a copier of the information variable ?: C This happens by replicating the configuration of R blindly, one elementary unit at a time. It follows that C is a universal copier for the set of replicators consisting of elementary units drawn from ? (a property called heredity [32]). Error-correction can happen blindly too, for instance via mismatch-repair. In bacteria this phase is DNA replication and C includes all the relevant enzymes in the cell. (10) For the two phases to perform maintenance, the recipe for the vehicle V , instantiated in the replicator R, must be copied in the copy-phase. This requires the elementary instructions of the recipe to be (sets of) the elementary units ri of the replicator. In bacteria they are the codons - triplets of the elementary units of the replicator (the nucleotides), coding for the building blocks of proteins (aminoacids). The replication of each sub-unit ri constitutes a measurement of which at- tribute ri holds, followed by constructing a new instance of it. Since the replicator R must contain all the knowledge about S, the attributes in ?, of which R is made, must be generic resources, so as to require no recipe (other than R) to be constructed from generic resources. I call a modular replicator such as R whose subunits are made of generic resources a template replicator. A DNA strand is one: the information variable ? is the set of nucleotides - they are simple enough to have been naturally occurring in pre-biological environments. (10)I do not model details irrelevant to the self-reproduction logic (e.g. DNA semi- conservative replication). 16 B[R] (R,N) =? (R,R,W). (3) We thus see that the two maintenance phases achieve self-reproduction, as they amount to bringing about a new R, by copying the former R, and a new V , by construction - controlled by R. Thus, self-reproduction is stable precisely because copying and construction automatically execute the maintenance of S, by replicating the recipe and re-constructing the vehicle before the former instance of S wears out; and they permit error-correction. For arbitrarily high accuracy, both phases implement elementary sub-recipes that are non-specific to self-reproducers, and do not bear design. Therefore arbitrarily accurate self-reproduction is permitted by no-design laws, provided that the latter allow replicators - i.e., information media. Rewriting the copy phase, (3), as N =? (R,W), to highlight that C executes R, we see that a template replicator has a special property. It instantiates a recipe for its own construction from generic resources only (C does not need to contain any additional recipe to construct the subunits of R: it blindly copies the pattern, subunit by subunit; and the units are generic resources). This is unique to template replicators. No other object could be a recipe for the construction of itself to a high accuracy. For the argument in section 3.1 implies that an instance (or a blueprint) of an object is not, in general, a recipe for its construction from generic substrates. A 3-D raster-scanner provided with an instance of, say, a bacterium could not re-produce it accurately from generic substrates only: without a recipe containing the knowledge about the bacterium’s structure, there would be no criterion for error-correction, resulting in a bound on the achievable accuracy. Likewise, an entire organism could not self-reproduce to a high accuracy via self-copying: without the recipe informing error-correction, an “error catastrophe” [30] would occur. This also provides a unifying descriptions of the two phases: the replicator R is a recipe for another instance of itself, when instructing C; a recipe for the construction of another vehicle, when instructing B. Overall, it instantiates the full recipe for S - see the figure 3.2. R is an active, germ line replicator [7], because it instantiates all the knowledge necessary to achieve its own replication. It is a consequence of the above argument that high-fidelity replication is possible under no-design laws too, provided that there is a vehicle that performs blind copying and error-correction. [diagram of construction tasks] Figure 2: The logic of self-reproduction An accurate self-reproducer (top of the figure) consists of the replicator R (blue outline) and the vehicle V (green outline) - which contains the copier C and the constructor B. In the copy phase C copies the replicator R - C[R] (red outline) acts as a constructor. In the construction phase B executes the recipe in R to build a vehicle from generic resources N - B[R] (red outline) acts as a constructor. Finally (bottom) the copy of R and the newly constructed vehicle form the offspring. Moreover, for the replicator to preserve its ability to be an accurate replicator across generations, its vehicle must be reproduced too - together, they must constitute a self-reproducer. Hence self-reproduction is essential to high-fidelity replication under no-design laws.
critical rationalist
CR, the circle is yours. You forget that we are designers and observers. So we know designers are possible and that it often produces recognisable patterns. Patterns such as complex fine tuning, functionally specific complex organisation and associated information, applications of linguistic ability. This last points to cases such as composition of extensive original speech or text that reduces that to writing, such as your own. These are reliable signs, tested against observation. Paley's time keeping self replicating watch is a thought exercise extension, one that in key parts anticipated von Neumann's kinematic self replicator. Now, too, we know that design is an act of intelligence, in relevant part, intelligently directed configuration. So, all we need to accept is that intelligence with that capability is real, and that acts of design may and often do, reflect reliable signs of design. Relevant cases in the natural world include the fine tuned physics of the cosmos or aspects of it, the living cell, body plans, discovery of complex coded algorithmic information in the cell. On the strength of such, we have every epistemic right to infer design on such signs, then to ask about onward issues. Where, as we are only using that inductive, abductive form, inference to the best explanation reasoning that is a good slice of our reasoning, we have no need to be cowed by attempts to pretend that such reasoning should not be trusted. In fact, such attempts become self referential and incoherent, very quickly, as we ask on what basis we claim knowledge of our world. KF PS, Dallas Willard and heirs provide a good dose of corrective regarding knowledge:
To have knowledge in the dispositional sense—where you know things you are not necessarily thinking about at the time—is to be able to represent something as it is on an adequate basis of thought or experience, not to exclude communications from qualified sources (“authority”). This is the “knowledge” of ordinary life, and it is what you expect of your electrician, auto mechanic, math teacher, and physician. Knowledge is not rare, and it is not esoteric . . . no satisfactory general description of “an adequate basis of thought or experience” has ever been achieved. We are nevertheless able to determine in many specific types of cases that such a basis is or is not present [p.19] . . . . Knowledge, but not mere belief or feeling, generally confers the right to act and to direct action, or even to form and supervise policy. [p. 20] In any area of human activity, knowledge brings certain advantages. Special considerations aside, knowledge authorizes one to act, to direct action, to develop and supervise policy, and to teach. It does so because, as everyone assumes, it enables us to deal more successfully with reality: with what we can count on, have to deal with, or are apt to have bruising encounters with. Knowledge involves assured [--> warranted, credible] truth, and truth in our representations and beliefs is very like accuracy in the sighting mechanism on a gun. If the mechanism is accurately aligned—is “true,” it enables those who use it with care to hit an intended target. [p. 4, Dallas Willard & Literary Heirs, The Disappearance of Moral Knowledge, Routledge|Taylor& Francis Group, 2018. ]
PPS: Can you bring yourself to acknowledge that complex, algorithmic code has been identified in the cell? Why or why not? (At this stage, litmus test. Which brings to bear the related question, when litmus paper goes red, do we have an epistemic right to infer on such a sign, acid? Why or why not? Extending, why do we accept the indications of a pH Meter or a Digital Caliper, or a speedometer, or a coincidence artillery range finder?) kairosfocus
@KF It's unclear how you've managed to create a probability calculus. For example, you're probably assumed that human beings were intentional outcome, which would significantly affect any vague calculation you might have come up with. But, this doesn't address the argument I'm presenting. Paley's argument is, the watch is well adapted to serve the purpose. Specifically, that of telling time. If you vary it, it will not serve that purpose nearly as well. It's a rare configuration of matter. This is what it means to have the appearance of design. You could use a rock to tell time, by using it as a sun dial, but it's not well adapted for that purpose. The knowledge of how to tell time is in us, not the rock. Right? ID's designer would itself be well adapted to serve a purpose: designing organisms. It too would have the appearance of design, which is exactly the thing ID is trying to explain via, well, a designer. IOW, ID is trying to explain being well adapted to serve a purpose with being well adapted to serve a purpose. This leaves us with the same problem we started out with. This is like stirring the food around on your plate, then claiming to have ate it. Yet it's still right there staring you in the face. critical rationalist
CR: IOW, Paley’s big contribution here is to describe the appearance of design. Namely, something has the appearance of design when it is well adapted to serve a purpose. If it was less well adapted, it wouldn’t serve that purpose nearly as well. The watch is a hard to vary configuration of matter. You can’t modify it without reducing its ability to serve that purpose.
To serve a person’s purpose of knowing the time.
First, if I didn't know any better, you seem to be suggesting the appearance of design can only be attributed to something unless it is known, at the outset, to have a purpose in mind by whatever designed it? But whether people were designed, is the very thing that's in question. So, apparently we cannot attribute the appearance of design to living things? IOW, you seem to be suggesting that until the first person stumbled upon something and devised some use for it, that something didn't the appearance of design. At which point it suddenly gained that attribute? More relevant to Paley's essay, we can compare a watch, which is well adapted to serve the purpose of telling time, and a stone, which a person can use as a sundial. The knowledge of how to tell time is embodied in the watch itself. It is a rare, hard to vary configuration of matter. However, in the case of the rock, the knowledge of how to use it to tell time is within us. The rock is not well adapted to serve the purpose of telling time as the role of casting a shadow can be performed by a wide variety of rocks, or even thinks that are non-rocks, like sticks, plants, etc. living things are vastly more like watches, not stones.
There is no purpose without a person.
Indeed. The very idea that something serves a purpose reflects an explanation. And only people can create explanatory knowledge. So, yes. There is no purpose without people. For example, plants cannot conceive of problems, like we can. We are universal explainers. This includes the ideas that plants need energy, that photosynthesis serves the purpose of solving that problem for plants, etc. That reflects a long chain of hard to vary explanations, and only people can create explanatory knowledge.
If so, tell me whose purpose you are talking about.
In the context of the appearance of design, "serves a purpose" is referring to something that could serve a designer's purpose, should someone intend it to. You could say , it has the appearance of having been designed to serve a purpose. In the case of photosynthesis, it cannot serve a purpose to plants because plants cannot create explanatory knowledge. Yet, I'm guessing you do not think photosynthesis did not have the appearance of design until we discovered it, came up with some use for it, like as an alternative form of generating energy using algae, etc. Right? The appearance of design refers to the attribute of solving a problem that could have been intentionally targeted to solve.
A cat’s eye has no function, has nothing to serve, and has no purpose if there is no cat.
A cat's eye solves a problem for a cat, even though a cat cannot conceive of problems like we can. It's possible that, in the future, we could stitch the genes of a cat into our DNA so we could see much better at night. Furthermore, a cat's eye represents a long chain of hard to vary explanations. This includes the use of rods, cones, optic nerves, etc. It works on the same principles of human eyes, such as geometry, optics, electromagnetism, etc. So, it's unclear why a cat's eye wouldn't detect light if it was kept in a nutrient bath and exposed to photons. Assuming we do not destroy ourselves first, decide to stop looking for explanations, etc. we will discover how to perform eye transplants in human beings. And with the right knowledge we could adopt a cat's eye to be used as a replacement, not unlike how kidney, livers and even lungs are becoming viable transplant sources for human beings.
CR: As such, would that not imply ID’s designer would, itself, exhibit the appearance of design? ORI: You seem to think that a designed object and the designer of the object fall into the same category. They do not.
I made an argument that they did. Your argument just said I was wrong without actually making a counter argument. Specifically, they would both have the appearance of design, as opposed to both being a human being, instead of an alien, or breathing air, or being a specific age, etc. All of those differences are, well, actually different categories. But they are not relevant to the argument I'm presenting.
Perhaps you mean functional specified organization because knowledge does not exist distinct from consciousness (the knower).
Ohh.. That's right. I think we agreed to call it CTKnowldge? Words are shortcuts for ideas. And despite not disagreeing with the more fundamental reformulation, you seem to object on the grounds of semantics. But, as long as we know we're talking about information that plays a causal role in being retained when embedded in a storage medium, it doesn't really matter to me. So, I'll rephrase the question so it's more to your liking... Where was that CTKnowledge, KF was referring to, before it was placed in living things by ID’s designer? critical rationalist
M_r, the metabolic network dwarfs a petroleum refinery. KF kairosfocus
KF @222
CR, replication requires materials and components, properly arranged, oriented and coupled;
You know what any replication requires? THE MATERIALS in the first place. Look how many chemical building blogs are freely floating in cytoplasm -- just waiting to be used for e.g. replication or similar molecular assembly ... All these needful materials ARE ALWAYS AVAILABLE like a miracle :))))))) martin_r
CR, replication requires materials and components, properly arranged, oriented and coupled; requisites of configuration based function. That has to come from somewhere, by adequate cause, so no it is not merely copying a blueprint (passive information) but replication of the means by which a self-sustaining, self replicating entity can proceed with operating now and preparing the next generation. But as Paley highlighted, we have to explain the origin of the contrivance, where beyond 500 - 1.000 bits, blind watchmaker becomes utterly implausible. Adequate, empirically grounded cause is required and just so stories and handwaving over earth is a one point sample do not cut it, nor does success filtered lucky noise. As for mutations, with exceedingly complex systems, accidental changes are overwhelmingly likely to be either trivial or deleterious. In any case, we are back at the recorded blueprint, which in context is of course based on strings and information recorded in a description language of some form. Which means, the constructor must have a machine language. What is the empirically grounded source of linguistic phenomena? Are we putting up just so stories, not empirically testable inferences? KF kairosfocus
Martin_r @202,
This is typical Darwinian. They call things machines, but they don’t mean machines. They call things engineering, but they don’t mean engineering. They call things design, but they don’t mean design. They call things codes, but they don’t mean literal codes … :))))))) It is like in a madhouse.
Haha, so true! Jerry @212,
You have stumbled on the basis for ID.
Yep, Ford Prefect nailed it. But ID is much LESS than any assertion about God. All ID suggests is that it’s far more pragmatic and dependable to investigate a poorly understood biological structure, feature, or function AS IF it were designed rather than presuming it must be random junk (“junk” DNA) or useless vestiges of evolution (“vestigial” organs). -Q Querius
What you are missing is any evidence from other than the Earth as we know it.
I read the article. It is irrelevant to anything I said. Based on what we know if life had a natural origin, life had to evolve from chemical compounds probably using thousands of steps, each step being stable. jerry
@KF, An accurate self replicator requires a blueprint, as opposed to replicating the organism itself, which is the replicator vehicle. If the vehicle itself was replicated, this would result in an error catastrophe, as all of the damage to the cell would be copied as well. The blueprint is first copied, then the cell divides. And, while copying is high-fidelity, it is still prone to errors. So there must be a means in which errors can be repaired in the blueprint. IOW, the knowledge in play is in living things, not some external designer. Nor is it maintained by an intervening designer. That’s the thing that needs to be explained. What is the origin of that knowledge according to ID? critical rationalist
CR @217
Ori: The watch is well adapted to serve the purpose of a person.
CR: The watch is well adapted to serve the purpose of keeping time
To serve a person’s purpose of knowing the time. There is no purpose without a person.
Ori: You say that the designer is also well-adapted to serve a purpose. What purpose and whose purpose would that be?
CR: You’re the one claiming ID’s designer, well, designed life on earth. That would reflect serving a purpose, right?
If so, tell me whose purpose you are talking about. A cat’s eye has no function, has nothing to serve, and has no purpose if there is no cat.
CR: As such, would that not imply ID’s designer would, itself, exhibit the appearance of design?
You seem to think that a designed object and the designer of the object fall into the same category. They do not.
Where was that knowledge before it was placed in living things by ID’s designer?
Perhaps you mean functional specified organization because knowledge does not exist distinct from consciousness (the knower). “Function”, “purpose”, and “service” are also terms that require a specific context. Origenes
The watch is well adapted to serve the purpose of a person.
The watch is well adapted to serve the purpose of keeping time.
You say that the designer is also well-adapted to serve a purpose. What purpose and whose purpose would that be?
You’re the one claiming ID’s designer, well, designed life on earth. That would reflect serving a purpose, right? As such, would that not imply ID’s designer would, itself, exhibit the appearance of design? If not, why? To rephrase, can ID’s designer be significantly modified without impacting its ability to design living things? If so, then how does it achieve its purpose - designing organisms? To start, there’s all that knowledge KF keeps referring to. How could ID’s designer have been said to design life if it did not possess that knowledge, at the outset? IOW, it too would be, well adapted to design organisms. If not, it’s unclear what it means to say it designed life on earth. In what sense? And ID would still leave the of the origin of the knowledge in living thinks unaccounted for. Where was that knowledge before it was placed in living things by ID’s designer? critical rationalist
Jerry:
ID is based on the fine tuning of the universe so OOL and Evolution are minor things for the creator of the universe to accomplish. It then asks what would be the purpose to tinker with the original creation in probably a countless number of ways?
What you are missing is any evidence from other than the Earth as we know it. What we need is a second data point. That should be available in a few years now if all goes to plan. http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/abiogenesis-the-second-data-point/ Alan Fox
CR, Paley pretty well anticipated von Neumann's kinematic self replicator of 1948, in 1802. His cam bar idea was a stored program technique. KF kairosfocus
CR
his designer would itself be a complicated entity that itself is well adapted to serve a purpose.
The watch is well adapted to serve the purpose of a person. You say that the designer is also well-adapted to serve a purpose. What purpose and whose purpose would that be? Origenes
@KF
the most relevant part of Paley is in his ch 2, which has been dodged ever since the 1850s.
Friedrich Miescher isolated DNA in 1967. And, even then, that was just the beginning. IOW, your argument is counter productive because you have undermined Paley's perspective. Why? Because Paley didn't have access to all of the details which you just outlined. At which point, his designer would itself be a complicated entity that itself is well adapted to serve a purpose. It too would have the appearance of design. So, how can being well adapted to serve a purpose be the explanation for being well adapted to serve a purpose? To use an analogy, Empiricism was the idea that all knowledge comes from the senses. However, this is problematic because, as it turns out, we discovered our senses operate via complicated, long chains of hard to vary explanations, such as geometry, optics, electromagnetic radiation, etc. And, you'd have to admit, those theories are, well, not observed. Right? So our observations are themselves theory laden. IOW, we do not observe things even when they are right in front of us. As such, how can all knowledge come from our senses? In the same sense, you've claimed the fact that living things are well adapted to serve a purpose is explained by a designer. However, this is problematic because, as it turns out, we've discovered designers are themselves well adapted to the purpose of designing things. They are complicated, knowledge laden entities. Their contrivances depend on complicated, long chains of hard to vary explanations. If you vary them significantly, they do not serve that purpose nearly as well. Furthermore, as you've illustrated, there is no designer inside a living thing that constantly provides explanatory knowledge of just the right genes that will result in just the right proteins that will result in just the right features. That knowledge exists independent of a knowing subject, in the form of non-explanatory knowledge. So, the very thing that needs to be explained is that knowledge. As, such the real question is what is the origin of that knowledge? How does knowledge grow? Or does it even grow at all? Is there any genuinely new knowledge in an organism, or was it always in some designer, or even in the laws of physics? So, what is ID's account for the origin of that knowledge? Apparently, that designer "just was" complete with that knowledge already present? But this does not serve an explanatory purpose. if we're willing to accept bad explanations, we could more efficiently state that life "just appeared" with that knowledge already present, then skip the designer. Both fail to account for the knowledge in organisms. critical rationalist
The fact that something can happen does not mean that it did happen. Scientists can never prove that life arose without god. The most they will ever be able to achieve is to theorize highly plausible mechanism for it to happen. This always leaves the door open (a gap) for god.
You have stumbled on the basis for ID. ID does not say the life did not arise by natural means. It says that it is highly unlikely that it did. In fact ID admits that because the creator of the universe is one of massive intelligence and power this creator could definitely find a way to make life appear naturally and for life to advance in the way it did. All it would take would be carefully designed initial and boundary conditions. No meddling after the fact. But ID looks at the science and logic and then says there are likely no natural ways we can observe that could do either. ID is based on the fine tuning of the universe so OOL and Evolution are minor things for the creator of the universe to accomplish. It then asks what would be the purpose to tinker with the original creation in probably a countless number of ways? The people who endorse ID rarely ask that question but some have. On UD they avoid it like the plague. The people commenting here are not the B team or the C team, but the Z team. Also those who oppose ID and are in good faith are non existent here. Only one has ever contributed anything worthwhile and he left over 15 years ago. As far as what science can do, is be honest. If life arose, it arose by natural selection of non life compounds and the number of steps were probably in the thousands. Which is why it is unlikely. But science is not honest. jerry
Ford @209
The most they [scientists] will ever be able to achieve is to theorize ...
:)))))) I agree with you on that one :))))))) martin_r
PPS, CR, I am saying, without warrant, there is nothing but just so stories and that the cell has in it strings, codes and algorithms. If you wish to posit a past in which something comes from nothing, let us know on what empirically founded warrant. KF kairosfocus
Martin-r writes:
All what you have to do is to demonstrate, that life can emerge from a chemical soup or from whatever you want (ocean’s hot vents, Yellowstone ponds, rotten meat, thin air ) … In that moment, I will publicly admit, that I was a stupid creationist who believed in fairy tales.
The fact that something can happen does not mean that it did happen. Scientists can never prove that life arose without god. The most they will ever be able to achieve is to theorize highly plausible mechanism for it to happen. This always leaves the door open (a gap) for god. Ford Prefect
M_r, well warranted, too. Take me as adding wood for the bonfire. KF kairosfocus
CR, the most relevant part of Paley is in his ch 2, which has been dodged ever since the 1850s. More later. KF PS, I excerpt:
Suppose, in the next place, that the person who found the watch [in a field and stumbled on the stone in Ch 1 just past, where this is 50 years before Darwin in Ch 2 of a work Darwin full well knew about] should after some time discover that, in addition to
[--> here cf encapsulated, gated, metabolising automaton, and note, "stickiness" of molecules raises a major issue of interfering cross reactions thus very carefully controlled organised reactions are at work in life . . . ]
all the properties [= specific, organised, information-rich functionality] which he had hitherto observed in it, it possessed the unexpected property of producing in the course of its movement another watch like itself [--> i.e. self replication, cf here the code using von Neumann kinematic self replicator that is relevant to first cell based life] -- the thing is conceivable [= this is a gedankenexperiment, a thought exercise to focus relevant principles and issues]; that it contained within it a mechanism, a system of parts -- a mold, for instance, or a complex adjustment of lathes, baffles, and other tools -- evidently and separately calculated for this purpose [--> it exhibits functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information; where, in mid-late C19, cell based life was typically thought to be a simple jelly-like affair, something molecular biology has long since taken off the table but few have bothered to pay attention to Paley since Darwin] . . . . The first effect would be to increase his admiration of the contrivance, and his conviction of the consummate skill of the contriver. Whether he regarded the object of the contrivance, the distinct apparatus, the intricate, yet in many parts intelligible mechanism by which it was carried on, he would perceive in this new observation nothing but an additional reason for doing what he had already done -- for referring the construction of the watch to design and to supreme art
[--> directly echoes Plato in The Laws Bk X on the ART-ificial (as opposed to the strawman tactic "supernatural") vs the natural in the sense of blind chance and/or mechanical necessity as serious alternative causal explanatory candidates; where also the only actually observed cause of FSCO/I is intelligently configured configuration, i.e. contrivance or design]
. . . . He would reflect, that though the watch before him were, in some sense, the maker of the watch, which, was fabricated in the course of its movements, yet it was in a very different sense from that in which a carpenter, for instance, is the maker of a chair -- the author of its contrivance, the cause of the relation of its parts to their use [--> i.e. design]. . . . . We might possibly say, but with great latitude of expression, that a stream of water ground corn ; but no latitude of expression would allow us to say, no stretch cf conjecture could lead us to think, that the stream of water built the mill, though it were too ancient for us to know who the builder was. What the stream of water does in the affair is neither more nor less than this: by the application of an unintelligent impulse to a mechanism previously arranged, arranged independently of it and arranged by intelligence, an effect is produced, namely, the corn is ground. But the effect results from the arrangement. [--> points to intelligently directed configuration as the observed and reasonably inferred source of FSCO/I] The force of the stream cannot be said to be the cause or the author of the effect, still less of the arrangement. Understanding and plan in the formation of the mill were not the less necessary for any share which the water has in grinding the corn; yet is this share the same as that which the watch would have contributed to the production of the new watch . . . . Though it be now no longer probable that the individual watch which our observer had found was made immediately by the hand of an artificer, yet doth not this alteration in anywise affect the inference, that an artificer had been originally employed and concerned in the production. The argument from design remains as it was. Marks of design and contrivance are no more accounted for now than they were before. In the same thing, we may ask for the cause of different properties. We may ask for the cause of the color of a body, of its hardness, of its heat ; and these causes may be all different. We are now asking for the cause of that subserviency to a use, that relation to an end, which we have remarked in the watch before us. No answer is given to this question, by telling us that a preceding watch produced it. There cannot be design without a designer; contrivance, without a contriver; order [--> better, functionally specific organisation], without choice; arrangement, without any thing capable of arranging; subserviency and relation to a purpose, without that which could intend a purpose; means suitable to an end, and executing their office in accomplishing that end, without the end ever having been contemplated, or the means accommodated to it. Arrangement, disposition of parts, subserviency of means to an end, relation of instruments to a use, imply the presence of intelligence and mind. No one, therefore, can rationally believe that the insensible, inanimate watch, from which the watch before us issued, was the proper cause of the mechanism we so much admire m it — could be truly said to have constructed the instrument, disposed its parts, assigned their office, determined their order, action, and mutual dependency, combined their several motions into one result, and that also a result connected with the utilities of other beings. All these properties, therefore, are as much unaccounted for as they were before. Nor is any thing gained by running the difficulty farther back, that is, by supposing the watch before us to have been produced from another watch, that from a former, and so on indefinitely. Our going back ever so far brings us no nearer to the least degree of satisfaction upon the subject. Contrivance is still unaccounted for. We still want a contriver. A designing mind is neither supplied by this supposition nor dispensed with. If the difficulty were diminished the farther we went back, by going back indefinitely we might exhaust it. And this is the only case to which this sort of reasoning applies. "Where there is a tendency, or, as we increase the number of terms, a continual approach towards a limit, there, by supposing the number of terms to be what is called infinite, we may conceive the limit to be attained; but where there is no such tendency or approach, nothing is effected by lengthening the series . . . , And the question which irresistibly presses upon our thoughts is. Whence this contrivance and design ? The thing required is the intending mind, the adapted hand, the intelligence by which that hand was directed. This question, this demand, is not shaken off by increasing a number or succession of substances destitute of these properties; nor the more, by increasing that number to infinity. If it be said, that upon the supposition of one watch being produced from another in the course of that other's movements, and by means of the mechanism within it, we have a cause for the watch in my hand, namely, the watch from which it proceeded — I deny, that for the design, the contrivance, the suitableness of means to an end, the adaptation of instruments to a use, all of which we discover in the watch, we have any cause whatever. It is in vain, therefore, to assign a series of such causes, or to allege that a series may be carried back to infinity; for I do not admit that we have yet any cause at all for the phenomena, still less any series of causes either finite or infinite. Here is contrivance, but no contriver; proofs of design, but no designer. [Paley, Nat Theol, Ch 2]
kairosfocus
Kairofocus @24, didn't you notice my sarcasm @202 ? martin_r
KF, I'm confused, as your argument appears to be counter productive. First, someone might assume that you're making the flawed argument that distant past will resemble the past. That's flawed because has the same problem as the idea that the future will resemble the past. Surely, that's not what you're suggesting, right? The problem is, there are multitude of ways the future does not resemble the past. No one has formulated a principle of induction that actually provides guidance that we can use in the sense induction implies. So, how could you use in in the case of the origin of organisms? So, if we rule out an argument that "the distant pass would resemble the past", then surely you must be referring to explanations, right? IOW, the times we thought we were using induction, we were actually referring to explanations or even useful rules of thumb, regardless how poor they were. However, this seems particularly problematic for your argument, should we try to take it seriously, for the purpose of criticism. The appearance of design is being well adapted to serve a purpose. This is what Paley was referring to in regards to a watch he stumbled upon.....
In crossing a heath, suppose I pitched my foot against a stone, and were asked how the stone came to be there; I might possibly answer, that, for anything I knew to the contrary, it had lain there forever: nor would it perhaps be very easy to show the absurdity of this answer. But suppose I had found a watch upon the ground, and it should be inquired how the watch happened to be in that place; I should hardly think of the answer I had before given, that for anything I knew, the watch might have always been there. ... There must have existed, at some time, and at some place or other, an artificer or artificers, who formed [the watch] for the purpose which we find it actually to answer; who comprehended its construction, and designed its use. ... Every indication of contrivance, every manifestation of design, which existed in the watch, exists in the works of nature; with the difference, on the side of nature, of being greater or more, and that in a degree which exceeds all computation.
IOW, Paley's big contribution here is to describe the appearance of design. Namely, something has the appearance of design when it is well adapted to serve a purpose. If it was less well adapted, it wouldn't serve that purpose nearly as well. The watch is a hard to vary configuration of matter. You can't modify it without reducing its ability to serve that purpose. Now, let's try to take your claim seriously, in that it's true in reality and that all observations should conform to it. Specifically, you're claiming a designer designed all life on earth. However, part of that design includes all of those strings, algorithms, etc. They themselves reflect hard to vary configurations of matter. So, where was all this complexity before said designer supposedly put it in organisms when creating them? IOW, any such designer would, itself, have the very same properties we're trying to explain in the biosphere. Or to rephrase, how can being well adapted to serve a purpose be the explanation for being well adapted to serve a purpose? It's the knowledge in living things that needs to be explained as living things start out as balls of cells, which then transform raw materials into proteins, features, etc. They do not poof into existence. They are programmable constructors. That knowledge is where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. What is the origin of that knowledge? So, there must be some assumption you're making which isn't present in the above. Otherwise, it seems that you're merely pushed the problem up a level without improving it. Perhaps you can fill in the gaps? In addition. constructor theory is a generalization of catalysts, information and even the theory of computation. It provides a way to bring them into fundamental physics by reformulating them into which physical transformations are possible, which physical transformations are impossible and why. The entire process of replication, including aaRSs, etc can be presented as a tree of constructor tasks. Are you suggesting reformulation isn not possible? critical rationalist
M_r, parts that do not have codes for proteins. There are other functions involved and of course a debate over junk. Slide up to the OP and notice in making insulin, there is a chain c that acts as scaffolding. Is that non functional? Junk? I suggest not, nor the signal sequence also snipped off. Then, we have RNA sequences, e.g. those that make differing tRNAs, and so forth. Then there is what we do not yet know. KF PS, Wiki sees the thumbscrews again, and confesses:
Non-coding DNA (ncDNA) sequences are components of an organism's DNA that do not encode protein sequences. Some non-coding DNA is transcribed into functional non-coding RNA molecules (e.g. transfer RNA, microRNA, piRNA, ribosomal RNA, and regulatory RNAs). Other functional regions of the non-coding DNA fraction include regulatory sequences that control gene expression; scaffold attachment regions; origins of DNA replication; centromeres; and telomeres. Some non-coding regions appear to be mostly nonfunctional such as introns, pseudogenes, intergenic DNA, and fragments of transposons and viruses. In bacteria, the coding regions typically take up 88% of the genome.[1] The remaining 12% does not encode proteins, but much of it still has biological function through genes where the RNA transcript is functional (non-coding genes) and regulatory sequences, which means that almost all of the bacterial genome has a function.[1] The amount of coding DNA in eukaryrotes is usually a much smaller fraction of the genome because eukaryotic genomes contain large amounts of repetitive DNA not found in prokaryotes. The human genome contains somewhere between 1–2% coding DNA.[2][3] The exact number is not known because there are disputes over the number of functional coding exons and over the total size of the human genome. This means that 98–99% of the human genome consists of non-coding DNA and this includes many functional elements such as non-coding genes and regulatory sequences.
kairosfocus
Alan Fox So we know
Nope,you know nothing. Atheistic imagination is not knowledge. Sandy
Relatd
Relatd: “The non-coding genome” is the title of an upcoming conference. So, even though the word code is there it does not mean code?
This is typical Darwinian. They call things machines, but they don't mean machines. They call things engineering, but they don't mean engineering. They call things design, but they don't mean design. They call things codes, but they don't mean literal codes ... :))))))) It is like in a madhouse. martin_r
Ford @191
Martin_r writes: So …. as for today, a special creation/creationism has not been falsified, right ? A special creation/creationism cannot be falsified. That is why it is not science.
What ???? Sometimes I really think that all Darwinists are hoaxers/trolls, or don't use their heads ... It is nothing easier than to falsify a special creation/creationism. All what you have to do is to demonstrate, that life can emerge from a chemical soup or from whatever you want (ocean's hot vents, Yellowstone ponds, rotten meat, thin air ) ... In that moment, I will publicly admit, that I was a stupid creationist who believed in fairy tales. martin_r
AF, nonsense. The loading of tRNAs which have the in common CCA tool tip is how the encoding is effected, not in opposition to encoding. As you know but have consistently side stepped, chemically, any given tRNA chemically matches any other. The encoding then goes on to be used create the aaRS enzymes, which are of course proteins. That is, the going concern system is reflexive; the issue is its origin, and the nature of codes, algorithms and strings is relevant to that. On this, the matter is utterly clear, symbolic, coded information and its use in algorithms are strong signs of design by language using intelligence. That is what you tried to evade by denying existence of codes, which is manifestly false. KF kairosfocus
So we know that the inherent structure of RNA results in the molecule acting as a template for its own replication. In fact RNA viruses still use RNA as genes. We know that RNA sequences are at the heart of protein synthesis in living organisms. The ribosome's active site is RNA. We know that aa tRNA synthetases "recognize" and charge tRNAs accurately based on their shape rather than any code. So much for RNA World being a just-so story. Alan Fox
...it has long since been put up that aaRS enzymes recognise general conformations of tRNAs, not merely particular anticodons...
Ah, so you do know what I am pointing out. The code is secondary to the shape matching. Alan Fox
AF, one of the et als pops up, with a red herring. There is already on the table a suggestion regarding redundancy in the codon table. Where, it has long since been put up that aaRS enzymes recognise general conformations of tRNAs, not merely particular anticodons, so this is a distractive side issue. And oh yes, the codon table summarises how the loading enzymes work collectively. Of course side stepped, it is oh so easy to pretend that what is on the table is not. Meanwhile, the months-long pretence that there is no code in the cell stands shattered. KF kairosfocus
We see here how there is a repeated refusal to acknowledge basic facts on the table, part of the negative credibility zero concessions policy for certain objectors.
What you quote in that comment is OK as far as it goes. But it doesn't cover the fact that there are six leucine tRNAs and only one leucine tRNA synthetase. How can leucine tRNA synthetase "recognize" all six leucine tRNAs and charge them all with leucine? Alan Fox
FP et al, you are now resorting to typical Alinsky style personalise-polarise well poisoning tactics, hence derogatory labelling and the like, confirming your negative credibility. Similarly, in the face of actual cases in point you are pretending that nothing is on the table. And of course all of this is intended to be distractive and obfuscatory regarding what is established through the OP. For that, we can simply note that not one objector has been able to touch the Nature article by Sydney Brenner published in 2012. The title, duly approved by Nature, the leading scientific journal family in the world, is already decisive. Namely, "Life’s code script." It is duly noted, that objectors and detractors have nothing to say in answer to the leading Journal and a Nobel Prize winner who affirm the scientific consensus that the cell contains coded information. Coded algorithms and string data structures are a fact of life in the cell, thus linguistic phenomena. A viable inference, therefore, is that the cell is a product of intelligently directed configuration by language using intelligent agents. Indeed, with Venter et al, we are beginning the journey of engineering on cell technologies. DNA has been repurposed for archival storage, and all 16 GB of English language Wikipedia at the time has been stored using DNA strings. The zero concession, you are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked rhetorical gambits by your circle of et als have collapsed. But predictably this will never be acknowledged. You would be well advised to retire such tactics. Next, you know or should know that up to 50 or so years ago, the alleged incoherence of the core concept of God was a standard skeptic's tactic. It fell apart when Plantinga's free will defence shattered the problem of evil, but the mere existence of the failed attack itself shows a first falsifiability criterion for theism, thus necessarily for creationism. So, the approach that creationism [which is not being advocated as part of the design inference but needs someone to speak up for it] is unfalsifiable and meaningless, falls apart at once. Speaking of which, the underlying invitation to implicitly use logical positivism is also a failure of similar vintage. For, the verification principle intended to discredit metaphysics, ethics and theology cannot meet its own criterion. Recall, I have been highlighting how self referentiality is core to the hard problem nature of philosophy. It is not an analytic truth, nor is it an operationally testable proposition, that what is not so testable is meaningless. It's not the 50's and 60's anymore. Those are over, too, they fail; it's a settled matter anchored on history. BTW, Mathematics is not a science no more than a sheep's tail can be labelled its fifth leg. Mathematics does not warrant in the way that sciences do, even though post Godel, it cannot claim perfect inexhaustible coherence or completenes. Trying to call Mathematics a Science fails. Now, we turn to actual science and the issue of falsifiability, thence the issue of ideologies and agendas. For, Popper's falsifiability as popularised is simplistic as a criterion of science, vs non science vs pseudo science etc. And, in particular, there are no hard and fast definable criteria for science vs not science vs pseudo science and so forth. Why do I say that? Because, the proper focus of science is a positive one: empirical warrant supporting the best current explanation. Absent such warrant, a claim falters, and the need for such warrant automatically gives a criterion of epistemic merit. However, this also means that reliability of observations is pivotal, and that no explanatory construct of science, whether theory or model, can rise above provisionality. You and your et al have been around when this has been thrashed out at UD. But obviously, the penumbra of objectors assumes it needs not pay attention to those ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked ID-iots. Where, too, as Feyerabend et al long since recognised, there are no definable methods of particular reliability that are unique to and definitive on identifying sciences. This is one of the many points of failure for scientism. What we have is responsible, evidence and observation anchored prudence towards warrant. Something that extends to history, finance/investment, management, essay writing and the like. And, Cicero long ago highlighted that we are governed by built in first duties of reason: to truth, right reason, warrant and wider prudence etc. (Another point of zero concession denialism, of course.) The subtext of contempt lies exposed and it has led to failure. Negative credibility, utter unreliability again. That means, scientific theories and models are not true, they are empirically tested as reliable so far, due to the logic of implication and the use of implication in abductive reasoning. So, for instance, Newtonian Dynamics once ruled the roost but now is known to be a limited framework for large, slow moving bodies. Now, we can turn to evolutionary materialistic scientism and its fellow travellers. Already, Haldane is instantly decisive:
[JBSH, REFACTORED AS SKELETAL, AUGMENTED PROPOSITIONS:] "It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For
if [p:] my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain [–> taking in DNA, epigenetics and matters of computer organisation, programming and dynamic-stochastic processes; notice, "my brain," i.e. self referential] ______________________________ [ THEN] [q:] I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. [--> indeed, blindly mechanical computation is not in itself a rational process, the only rationality is the canned rationality of the programmer, where survival-filtered lucky noise is not a credible programmer, note the functionally specific, highly complex organised information rich code and algorithms in D/RNA, i.e. language and goal directed stepwise process . . . an observationally validated adequate source for such is _____ ?] [Corollary 1:] They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence [Corollary 2:] I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. [--> grand, self-referential delusion, utterly absurd self-falsifying incoherence] [Implied, Corollary 3: Reason and rationality collapse in a grand delusion, including of course general, philosophical, logical, ontological and moral knowledge; reductio ad absurdum, a FAILED, and FALSE, intellectually futile and bankrupt, ruinously absurd system of thought.]
In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. Cf. here on (and esp here) on the self-refutation by self-falsifying self referential incoherence and on linked amorality.]
Thus, evolutionary materialistic scientism is a self refuting non starter, taking down its fellow travellers with it. Turning to actual warrant and empirical evidence, not side debates on revelation and textual exposition, we can start with the key evidence on the table your et al circle from the penumbra are so desperate to deny: cell based life, in key part, is based on string data structure, coded algorithmic information used to synthesise proteins. Established knowledge, with Nobel Prizes. The irresponsible denialism we have seen only serves to show, by inadvertently exposing cognitive dissonance, that this is decisive. Why reject the notion that lucky noise filtered by somehow hitting on islands of function, assembled cell based life in some darwin pond or the like? Easy, there is no adequate empirical warrant for it, speculations on RNA worlds etc notwithstanding. FSCO/I -- as close to hand as the English text of your objections -- does not come from nowhere by grossly inadequate sources. It is the known signature of design, on trillions of actually observed cases. I care not, for this, whether or not, we are looking at a molecular nanotech lab in orbit, long since disposed of by crashing into a handy star, Sol. The point is, evident design on reliable sign. Similarly, body plans (evident from the forms and patterns of life that drove taxonomy), are full of FSCO/I and that needs to be accounted for. Design is the best explanation, minor adaptive radiation does not account for body plans. As for various outdated but still popularised or even imposed claims:
>>If you mean unguided evolution rather than your lame derogatory labelling of anyone you disagree with,>> 1: A lie of turnabout projection, it is manifest that for over a decade I and others have focussed on substance only to be subjected to Alinsky tactics. 2: Correcting trollish abuse on warrant is being wrenched and twisted into an ad hominem doused strawman, to be set alight to cloud, choke, poison and polarise the atmosphere, frustrating serious discussion. 3: To see the force of this, notice how objectors above have all run away from Sydney Brenner and Nature. >> there would be any number of things that could make me reconsider it.>> 4: Predictably and that on track record over a decade, not so. >>1) A fossil record consistently showing increased complexity as you go back in time.>> 5: Strawman, the actual issue is, to account for the FSCO/I in life, starting with OoL. 6: Where, as Gould admitted, the actual record, after 1/4 million fossil species, millions of specimens in museums and billions in the ground, is sudden appearances and the preservation or disappearance of main body plans, the Cambrian life revolution being notorious. 7: Where, of course, as the OP highlights, from the cell on, there are no simple life forms. 8: Of course, evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers have long since been undermined by Haldane. >>2) significant differences between morphological cladistics and genomic comparisons.>> 9: The issue being dodged is origin of FSCO/I, commonality and modification is readily explained by common design, which also accounts for the underlying FSCO/I, which is the main explanatory gap. >>3) proof that geological dating significantly overestimated the ages of various strata.>> 10: Utterly irrelevant to the design inference. What is to be explained is the functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information, and just 500 bits is beyond the blind search capability of our sol system of 10^57 atoms in 10^17 s. 11: But of course, dismissive., distractive rhetoric will be trotted out to pull away from the core challenge in the OP. Notics, Sydney Brenner and Nature are nowhere addressed by objectors. >>4) the presence of mammalian fossils from the Cambrian.>> 12: A strawman, you still have not accounted for the FSCO/I in OoL, much less in the main body plans in the Cambrian fossil beds. After over 150 years. >>5) a significant trend amongst researchers towards ID.>> 13: Institutional domination and domineering tactics do not answer to the substantial question, where did the FSCO/I in the cell and in body plans come from. >>6) plausible and testable mechanisms by which the “designers” could have realized their designs. >> 14: You have already been directed to Venter et al, as examples of early stages engineering of life. You and your circle have studiously ignored facts like that on the ground. 15: Therefore, there is no reason to believe that this objection is sincere.
In short, empty, distractive rhetoric. KF PS, just for record, Brenner, in Nature, 2012:
[Brenner:] ” . . . The most interesting connection with biology, in my view, is in Turing’s most important paper: ‘On computable numbers with an application to the Entscheidungsproblem’5, published in 1936, when Turing was just 24. Computable numbers are defined as those whose decimals are calculable by finite means. [–> that is, effectively, by algorithms] Turing introduced what became known as the Turing machine to formalize the computation. The abstract machine is provided with a tape [–> with marks on it], which it scans one square at a time, and it can write, erase or omit symbols. The scanner may alter its mechanical state, and it can ‘remember’ previously read symbols. Essentially, the system is a set of instructions written on the tape, which describes the machine. Turing also defined a universal Turing machine, which can carry out any computation for which an instruction set can be written — this is the origin of the digital computer. [–> there is also, a more powerful oracle machine, capable of one step decisions] Turing’s ideas were carried further in the 1940s by mathematician and engineer John von Neumann, who conceived of a ‘constructor’ machine capable of assembling another according to a description. A universal constructor with its own description would build a machine like itself. To complete the task, the universal constructor needs to copy its description and insert the copy into the offspring machine. Von Neumann noted that if the copying machine made errors, these ‘mutations’ would provide inheritable changes in the progeny. Arguably the best examples of Turing’s and von Neumann’s machines are to be found in biology. Nowhere else are there such complicated systems, in which every organism contains an internal description of itself. The concept of the gene as a symbolic representation of the organism — a code script — is a fundamental feature of the living world and must form the kernel of biological theory. [–> note, again, author, context and publisher] Turing died in 1954, one year after the discovery of the double-helical structure of DNA by James Watson and Francis Crick, but before biology’s subsequent revolution. Neither he nor von Neumann had any direct effect on molecular biology, but their work allows us to discipline our thoughts about machines, both natural and artificial. Turing invented the stored-program computer, and von Neumann showed that the description is separate from the universal constructor. [–> that ‘description’ of course is encoded] This is not trivial. Physicist Erwin Schrödinger confused the program and the constructor in his 1944 book What is Life?, in which he saw chromosomes as “architect’s plan and builder’s craft in one”. This is wrong. The code script contains only a description of the executive function, not the function itself.
That is what is being dodged and distracted from, the utter collapse of the credibility of FP and the et al circle. kairosfocus
Kairosfocus writes:
FP et al, what practical conditions would lead you to seriously reconsider evolutionary materialistic scientism and/or fellow travellers?
If you mean unguided evolution rather than your lame derogatory labelling of anyone you disagree with, there would be any number of things that could make me reconsider it. 1) A fossil record consistently showing increased complexity as you go back in time. 2) significant differences between morphological cladistics and genomic comparisons. 3) proof that geological dating significantly overestimated the ages of various strata. 4) the presence of mammalian fossils from the Cambrian. 5) a significant trend amongst researchers towards ID. 6) plausible and testable mechanisms by which the “designers” could have realized their designs. I’m sure if I thought about it there would be many more.
So, were it the case that an inherently good, utterly wise creator God, a necessary and maximally great being were incoherent as a square circle is, then creationism would necessarily be falsified.
And what conditions would convince you that this being were incoherent? If it was conclusively demonstrated that humans evolved from an earlier ancestor without any intelligent intervention? No, that doesn’t apply because they could have designed life such that all subsequent life could evolve in an unguided fashion. Maybe if it could be conclusively demonstrated that life arose without intelligent intervention? No, that wouldn’t do it either; god could simply have created the universe such that life could arise without further intervention. Please provide a concrete example of a condition by which a creator would be incoherent. Keeping in mind that science, other than math, does not deal with proofs. Ford Prefect
FP et al, what practical conditions would lead you to seriously reconsider evolutionary materialistic scientism and/or fellow travellers? Not, the self refuting undermining of freedom required to credibly warrant things as knowable. Not the undermining of moral government of reasoning that founds a devotion to sound reasoning. Not, the utter want of an empirically anchored means to produce the required functionally complex organisation at OOL, just so RNA world stories and the like notwithstanding. Not, the utter want of an empirically anchored means to produce the FSCO/I for the body plans that are foundational to the taxonomical tree of life. So, we see here a classic bit of projection. KF PS, just for starters, Creationism would require, a creator. So, were it the case that an inherently good, utterly wise creator God, a necessary and maximally great being were incoherent as a square circle is, then creationism would necessarily be falsified. So, instantly your talking point that it is not falsifiable fails. As a matter of fact, up to 50 years ago it was common for atheists and fellow travellers to try to argue such incoherence, but post Plantinga that collapsed. So, your assertion is grossly ill founded. Not, that such is likely to faze you. kairosfocus
AF, notice, you were already answered that the table summarises what is in the enzymes that load tRNA. KF PS, Wiki confesses:
While the specific nucleotide sequence of an mRNA specifies which amino acids are incorporated into the protein product of the gene from which the mRNA is transcribed, the role of tRNA is to specify which sequence from the genetic code corresponds to which amino acid.[4] The mRNA encodes a protein as a series of contiguous codons, each of which is recognized by a particular tRNA. One end of the tRNA matches the genetic code in a three-nucleotide sequence called the anticodon. The anticodon forms three complementary base pairs with a codon in mRNA during protein biosynthesis. On the other end of the tRNA is a covalent attachment to the amino acid that corresponds to the anticodon sequence. Each type of tRNA molecule can be attached to only one type of amino acid, so each organism has many types of tRNA.
[--> of course, chemically, the CCA end of the tRNA couples to the AA, and is a universal joint, so we see: "The CCA tail is a cytosine-cytosine-adenine sequence at the 3? end of the tRNA molecule. The amino acid loaded onto the tRNA by aminoacyl tRNA synthetases, to form aminoacyl-tRNA, is covalently bonded to the 3?-hydroxyl group on the CCA tail.[10] This sequence is important for the recognition of tRNA by enzymes and critical in translation.[11][12] [==> in short the pivot is how the CCA is loaded] In prokaryotes, the CCA sequence is transcribed in some tRNA sequences. In most prokaryotic tRNAs and eukaryotic tRNAs, the CCA sequence is added during processing and therefore does not appear in the tRNA gene.[13]"]
Because the genetic code contains multiple codons that specify the same amino acid, there are several tRNA molecules bearing different anticodons which carry the same amino acid. The covalent attachment to the tRNA 3’ end is catalysed by enzymes called aminoacyl tRNA synthetases. During protein synthesis, tRNAs with attached amino acids are delivered to the ribosome by proteins called elongation factors, which aid in association of the tRNA with the ribosome, synthesis of the new polypeptide, and translocation (movement) of the ribosome along the mRNA. If the tRNA's anticodon matches the mRNA, another tRNA already bound to the ribosome transfers the growing polypeptide chain from its 3’ end to the amino acid attached to the 3’ end of the newly delivered tRNA, a reaction catalysed by the ribosome.
Also:
An aminoacyl-tRNA synthetase (aaRS or ARS), also called tRNA-ligase, is an enzyme that attaches the appropriate amino acid onto its corresponding tRNA. It does so by catalyzing the transesterification of a specific cognate amino acid or its precursor to one of all its compatible cognate tRNAs to form an aminoacyl-tRNA. In humans, the 20 different types of aa-tRNA are made by the 20 different aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases, one for each amino acid of the genetic code. This is sometimes called "charging" or "loading" the tRNA with an amino acid. Once the tRNA is charged, a ribosome can transfer the amino acid from the tRNA onto a growing peptide, according to the genetic code. [ --> so, the loading is where the coding happens, as noted and as was brushed aside] Aminoacyl tRNA therefore plays an important role in RNA translation, the expression of genes to create proteins.
We see here how there is a repeated refusal to acknowledge basic facts on the table, part of the negative credibility zero concessions policy for certain objectors. kairosfocus
Martin_r writes:
So …. as for today, a special creation/creationism has not been falsified, right ?
A special creation/creationism cannot be falsified. That is why it is not science. Ford Prefect
Follow up #189 Meyer makes a lot more sense than Moran:
Genes and proteins are made from simple building blocks—nucleotide bases and amino acids, respectively—arranged in specific ways. Similarly, distinctive cell types are made of, among other things, systems of specialized proteins. Organs are made of specialized arrangements of cell types and tissues. And body plans comprise specific arrangements of specialized organs. Yet the properties of individual proteins do not fully determine the organization of these higher-level structures and patterns. 12 Other sources of information must help arrange individual proteins into systems of proteins, systems of proteins into distinctive cell types, cell types into tissues, and different tissues into organs. And different organs and tissues must be arranged to form body plans. (...) Note that the information necessary to build the lower-level electronic components does not determine the arrangement of those components on the circuit board or the arrangement of the circuit board and the other parts necessary to make a computer. That requires additional informational inputs. Two analogies may help clarify the point. At a construction site, builders will make use of many materials: lumber, wires, nails, drywall, piping, and windows. Yet building materials do not determine the floor plan of the house or the arrangement of houses in a neighborhood. Similarly, electronic circuits are composed of many components, such as resistors, capacitors, and transistors. But such lower-level components do not determine their own arrangement in an integrated circuit (see Fig. 14.2). In a similar way, DNA does not by itself direct how individual proteins are assembled into these larger systems or structures—cell types, tissues, organs, and body plans—during animal development. 13 Instead, the three-dimensional structure or spatial architecture of embryonic cells plays important roles in determining body-plan formation during embryogenesis. Developmental biologists have identified several sources of epigenetic information in these cells.
Origenes
Alan Fox
AF: Multicellular organisms develop from the embryo in a process of cell differentiation ,... under the control of Hox genes. There is no encoded body plan.
Ori: Then what codes the Hox genes?
AF: They are DNA sequences, part of the genome. No coding is involved.
The Hox genes control the building process from zygote to adult. They orchestrate the build of all the different organs, but they don't require any information. Really? Do they do it *just like that*? You and Moran must be kindred spirits then. Origenes
"The non-coding genome" is the title of an upcoming conference. So, even though the word code is there it does not mean code? https://www.embl.org/about/info/course-and-conference-office/events/ees23-10/ relatd
Regarding bioelectrics, I'll respond in that thread. Alan Fox
Then what codes the Hox genes?
They are DNA sequences, part of the genome. No coding is involved. Alan Fox
Alan Fox <
Professor Moran is right. Multicellular organisms develop from the embryo in a process of cell differentiation, growth, migration and dieback under the control of Hox genes. There is no encoded body plan.
Then what codes the Hox genes? Besides this Hox genes concept is now outdated and replaced by bioelectric-code. Try to keep up. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/bioelectric-code-gains-new-recognition-as-body-organizer-and-form-of-intelligence/ Origenes
...how on earth could YOU make any claims about linguistic or computer codes?
Well, I speak French reasonably well, living there for the last twenty years. Alan Fox
Origenes quoting Larry Moran
(…) experts do not see a need to encode body plans and brain in our genome (…)
Professor Moran is right. Multicellular organisms develop from the embryo in a process of cell differentiation, growth, migration and dieback under the control of Hox genes. There is no encoded body plan. Alan Fox
Alan Fox
So Dr Meyer has no professional expertise in biology or biochemistry.
I would like to note that it is not always the case that those who have that particular professional expertise make any sense. Take for instance Larry Moran who is a Professor Emeritus in the Department of Biochemistry at the University of Toronto, who holds that virtually all of our genome is junk. Once I asked him:
Ori: If most of our genome is junk, then where is the information stored for the (adult) body plan? Where is the information stored for e.g. the brain? And where is the information stored for how to build all this?
Larry Moran’s “answer”:
(…) experts do not see a need to encode body plans and brain in our genome (…)
- - - Good points by Whistler #178 ----
Where in the cell is the table?
Where in your computer is the table? Origenes
Alan fox
What codes? I’m pointing out the genetic code is not a code in the language or computer sense
You said that you are a biochemist … so how on earth could YOU make any claims about linguistic or computer codes? martin_r
The table is implicit in the loading operations of the tRNAs, so our laying out a matrix represents and summarises the relevant tRNA loading rules.
You should try to answer my question in comment 142. It is very relevant to your misconception. Alan Fox
An excellent question …. It got to be somewhere, that is for sure … most probably hardcoded in transcription enzymes ….
If you are referring to RNA polymerase, not so. Transcription from DNA to mRNA does not involve codes. The mRNA is an anti-sense copy that relies on the complementary A to T/U and G to C base pairing which is inherent to nucleotide stereo chemistry. Alan Fox
Alan Fox A Stephen Meyer video? Good grief, Jerry! His Ph D is in philosophy.
His Ph D is in philosophy of science. Good grief . Indeed. Look at these people considered as "competent" but not knowing what they are talking about: In 1976 Richard Dawkins summarized this view in his book The Selfish Gene. “The simplest way to explain the surplus DNA is to suppose that it is a parasite, or at best a harmless but useless passenger, hitching a ride in the survival machines created by the other DNA.” Lesley Orgel and Francis Crick, 1980: “Much DNA in higher organisms is little better than junk and can be compared to the spread of a not-too-harmful parasite within its host.” Douglas Futuyma, 2005: “Only Darwinian evolution can explain why the genome is full of ‘fossil’ genes.” Michael Shermer, 2006: “The human genome looks more and more like a mosaic of mutations, fragment copies, borrowed sequences, and discarded strings of DNA that were jerry-built over millions of years of evolution.” Jerry Coyne, 2009: “We expect to find, in the genomes of many species, silenced, or ‘dead,’ genes: genes that once were useful but are no longer intact or expressed.” John C. Avise, 2010: “Noncoding repetitive sequences—‘junk DNA’—comprise the vast bulk (at least 50%, and, probably much more) of the human genome.” whistler
Thanks, Jerry. So Dr Meyer has no professional expertise in biology or biochemistry. Alan Fox
Alan fox
Where in the cell is the table?
An excellent question …. It got to be somewhere, that is for sure … most probably hardcoded in transcription enzymes …. It is similar problem like genome map. How does a cell know what is the location of a particular gene in order to read it when needed …. martin_r
His Ph D is in philosophy.
Stephen Meyer Ph.D. in the History and Philosophy of Science. University of Cambridge, England, 1991. Thesis: “Of Clues and Causes: A Methodological Interpretation of Origin-of-Life Research.” Analyzed scientific and methodological issues in origin-of-life biology. M.Phil. in the History and Philosophy of Science. University of Cambridge, England, 1987. Emphases: History of Molecular Biology, History of Physics, Evolutionary Theory. Six hours of graduate applied mathematics, 1983-84, Southern Methodist University, Dallas, Texas B.S. in Physics/Earth Science (double major program), Minors in Philosophy and Math. Graduated Cum Laude 1981, Whitworth College. Lot of science courses. Then there were books on science. For example, Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design - 620 pages all science - It was about the coding of DNA.
Where in the cell is the table?
It's in the closet behind the chairs. Actually I believe it is connected to the Ribosome. jerry
AF, still twisting on the hook? The table is implicit in the loading operations of the tRNAs, so our laying out a matrix represents and summarises the relevant tRNA loading rules. Quite similar, BTW, to the tables of machine language instructions for processors. KF kairosfocus
M_r, codes are of linguistic character and yes it takes a lot more to create a code or a language than to use one that is a going concern, or to recognise that such a code is in use. Machine codes are serious achievements, as are high level languages or communication codes for telecommunication and artificial languages such as Esperanto. I suspect, people who haven't a clue about computer organisation and linked execution units or what goes into communication systems etc are trying to dismiss an obvious, observed case of machine code driven operations in the cell. Probably, as that opens dreaded doors they would rather be kept locked. KF kairosfocus
AF et al, that there is a code expressed in a table, is the real — and decisive — issue.
Where in the cell is the table? Alan Fox
... languages are not created by minds
Good point. As we all know, languages are created by blind particles in the void. Origenes
if I am not mistaken, you are a biologist
I trained in biochemistry but did not make a career of it. I just keep an active interest in developments.
So why on earth are you commenting on codes ?
What codes? I'm pointing out the genetic code is not a code in the language or computer sense. Alan Fox
AF et al, that there is a code expressed in a table, is the real -- and decisive -- issue. That is, there is a code, a symbolic system of rules that is used to express algorithms for assembling AAs toward proteins. Codes expressing symbols, rules etc are inherently linguistic and point to language using intelligence as cause, certainly, with many examples, that is the known cause. As to why there is one start code, why there are three stop codes, why some AAs have multiple codes and others have but few, at most, those are onward questions that can be investigated with profit, with the utility of redundancy likely relevant. At worst, squid ink cloud rhetorical tactics to evade accountability over trolling UD for months pretending there is not a code in this context and that it is ignorance and bias to suggest that there is a scientific consensus based on well known work that there is a code. Code there is, expressing algorithms, code that is linguistic in character, pointing to language using intelligence as the design source of life. KF kairosfocus
PM1 at 157, "My point was that codes are not languages and also that languages are not created by minds." How did human beings learn to talk or develop hand signals? relatd
Alan Fox
I don’t know anyone in mainstream science who claims to know how life got started on Earth. Not even Nick Lane!
So .... as for today, a special creation/creationism has not been falsified, right ? martin_r
Alan Fox
A Stephen Meyer video? Good grief, Jerry! His Ph D is in philosophy
if I am not mistaken, you are a biologist ... So why on earth are you commenting on codes ? martin_r
I think it’s far more scientific to admit that we’re completely clueless about the OOL as does Dr. James Tour than to pretend we understand it to any extent beyond pure speculation.
I don't know anyone in mainstream science who claims to know how life got started on Earth. Not even Nick Lane! Alan Fox
I don't agree with those who claim that code = language. To create/invent a code is way more complex, it requires higher knowledge and higher intelligence. martin_r
A Stephen Meyer video? Good grief, Jerry! His Ph D is in philosophy. Alan Fox
pyrro
Even if we accept that the transcription-translation process involves encoding and decoding, that does not show that this process was created by a mind.
how much self-deception is required to write something like that ? :))))))) martin_r
Ford Prefect
Kairosfocus writes: breeding is not engineering. Sure it is. It is just indirect genetic engineering.
I like how you people see engineering everywhere ... the only engineering you can't see is the cell :)))))))) martin_r
Kairosfocus @119,
Q, actually, it’s been about 100 years since Oparin, though we did have earlier fringe stuff and fantasies such as Frankenstein.
Ideally, science should be immune from fantasies, from Oparin’s soup to Dr. Frankenstein’s monster to Darwin’s racist and colonialist rationale that directly lead to eugenic exterminations.
Where, we can draw a comparison to ignorance of information as a key force. We are seeing engineering of life in preliminary stages through Venter and Co, which of course respects the informational nature of life and of DNA.
Indeed! Here are two questions regarding the appearance of design. 1. If the earth was a genetic experiment by some highly advanced interstellar civilization, how could we differentiate that compared to the current presumed OOL. 2. What measurable evidence do we have for spontaneous dramatic increases in complexity such as is present in a cell or the presumed evolution of RNA or DNA? Ram @126,
I feel I should point out that it is not the job for those of us who can clearly see the obvious, to convince the nincompoop anti-ID crowd of their error. Our job is not to convince the nincompoops but to expose their lunacy.
Agreed! I think it’s far more scientific to admit that we’re completely clueless about the OOL as does Dr. James Tour than to pretend we understand it to any extent beyond pure speculation. I delight in science, not science fantasy. -Q Querius
Martin_r
Natural selection did it.
Well done, sir. My apologies for underestimating your abilities. Alan Fox
A long undecipherable OP and a 157 comments and all that was needed is
Stephen Meyer Unmasks The Coding Of Human DNA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxhuxg3WRfg
that languages are not created by minds
But codes certainly are even if this is an incredibly dumb statement. And then an even dumber one
Even if we accept that the transcription-translation process involves encoding and decoding, that does not show that this process was created by a mind.
jerry
so you accept that the information stored in DNA molecule is encoded. You agree that it is a literal code. Who created the encoding/decoding table ?
I have no idea. My point was that codes are not languages and also that languages are not created by minds. Even if we accept that the transcription-translation process involves encoding and decoding, that does not show that this process was created by a mind. PyrrhoManiac1
...code and language should be first appreciated in computational context.
Why should it? As far as I can see, it has led ID proponents, you most of all, into much error. Alan Fox
Pyrro so you accept that the information stored in DNA molecule is encoded. You agree that it is a literal code. Who created the encoding/decoding table ? Let me guess .... Natural selection did it :))))))))))) martin_r
Ram
Our job is not to convince the nincompoops but to expose their lunacy.
Touche. martin_r
Try my question at 142, KF. Alan Fox
FP/AF et al, ignoring abusive commentary to try to obfuscate, code and language should be first appreciated in computational context. Wikipedia confesses a few things here:
In computer programming, machine code is any low-level programming language, consisting of machine language instructions, which are used to control a computer's central processing unit (CPU). Each instruction causes the CPU to perform a very specific task, such as a load, a store, a jump, or an arithmetic logic unit (ALU) operation on one or more units of data in the CPU's registers or memory.
Machine code or language is what is executed by the physical machine, extending obviously to numerically controlled machines including the ribosome. Which, as is well known, executes algorithms to assemble AA chains towards proteins. To make it clear, symbolic codes are used, and such codes are of linguistic character. Hence talk of things like register transfer language, used to be RT Algebra way back. They come from language using agents and are a strong sign of such designers having been at work. In short, the root problem is in the 1940s - 70s, on parallel tracks, we were developing computers that work by executing machine code and found out that key features of the cell were working in the same fundamental way, but using 4-state elements. (There was a Russian effort to build 3-state computers.) KF kairosfocus
During transcription, a section of DNA encoding a protein, known as a gene, is converted into a template molecule called messenger RNA (mRNA). This conversion is carried out by enzymes, known as RNA polymerases, in the nucleus of the cell.
Whereas this description is fine directed at a high school or undergraduate audience. How KF can quote reasonable descriptions yet transcribe it into the nonsense he writes himself is a mystery. Alan Fox
AUG does not chemically force a tRNA with anticodon to have Met on it, that is loaded by a separate enzyme beforehand, loaded at the CCA tool tip at the end away from the anticodon. The instructions are given to the ribosome, an execution unit, which initialises, acts in symbolically controlled steps then halts, using mRNA as a string data structure code tape and tRNA as both AA taxis and position-arm devices to aid in chaining, where the tRNAs have a universal CCA tool tip opposite to their anticodons. The key point of coding, as Yockey notes [cf OP] is loading tRNA with loading enzymes, using the universal CCA tool tip. Chemically, obviously, CCA can bind with any AA [and as Yockey notes misloading does happen], it is the aaRS that determines the particular, correct loading. And more.
This is pretty much garbled nonsense. Alan Fox
FP/AF/ et al, this is not a matter of Alinsky tactics. There are established facts on decades of experiment and analysis which, for months you have set out to obfuscate and pretend are not so. You are in denial of an established scientific consensus, while pretending to defend science, so it means the problem is ideology, specifically evolutionary materialistic scientism and/or fellow travellers. Congratulations, you have succeeded, you have shown yourself to have negative credibility, especially on the genetic code and protein synthesis. On this, you have been less credible than what Wikipedia confesses, a new low. We may freely use cognitive dissonance to infer that your projections to the other show that the actual facts are fatal to your ideology, and so you have irresponsibly set out to create rhetorical chaos. KF PS, to date you have failed to soundly address what Sydney Brenner had to say, as publ;shed by Nature's editors and reviewers. This is after you tried to obfuscate what Lehninger and heirs were so insistent on that they put a comparison of a cuneiform artifact and a bacterium on the table. Even Wikipedia does better:
The genetic code is the set of rules used by living cells to translate information encoded within genetic material (DNA or RNA sequences of nucleotide triplets, or codons) into proteins. Translation is accomplished by the ribosome, which links proteinogenic amino acids in an order specified by messenger RNA (mRNA), using transfer RNA (tRNA) molecules to carry amino acids and to read the mRNA three nucleotides at a time. The genetic code is highly similar among all organisms and can be expressed in a simple table with 64 entries. The codons specify which amino acid will be added next during protein biosynthesis. With some exceptions,[1] a three-nucleotide codon in a nucleic acid sequence specifies a single amino acid. The vast majority of genes are encoded with a single scheme (see the RNA codon table). That scheme is often referred to as the canonical or standard genetic code, or simply the genetic code, though variant codes (such as in mitochondria) exist.
and:
Protein synthesis can be divided broadly into two phases - transcription and translation. During transcription, a section of DNA encoding a protein, known as a gene, is converted into a template molecule called messenger RNA (mRNA). This conversion is carried out by enzymes, known as RNA polymerases, in the nucleus of the cell.[2] In eukaryotes, this mRNA is initially produced in a premature form (pre-mRNA) which undergoes post-transcriptional modifications to produce mature mRNA. The mature mRNA is exported from the cell nucleus via nuclear pores to the cytoplasm of the cell for translation to occur. During translation, the mRNA is read by ribosomes which use the nucleotide sequence of the mRNA to determine the sequence of amino acids. The ribosomes catalyze the formation of covalent peptide bonds between the encoded amino acids to form a polypeptide chain. Following translation the polypeptide chain must fold to form a functional protein; for example, to function as an enzyme the polypeptide chain must fold correctly to produce a functional active site.
A new low for ID objectors. kairosfocus
Jerry at 147, That's impossible! I've lost my faith in Unguided Evolution! What will I do!? I know - Intelligent Design. relatd
While everyone here is fiddling and Rome is burning, I will add to the fire.
Scientists Discover Parallel Codes In Genes Summary: Researchers from the Weizmann Institute of Science report the discovery of two new properties of the genetic code. Their work, which appears online in Genome Research, shows that the genetic code -- used by organisms as diverse as reef coral, termites, and humans -- is nearly optimal for encoding signals of any length in parallel to sequences that code for proteins.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070208230116.htm jerry
Is there symbolism and machine language at work in the computer you are typing on? Origenes
@Jerry Thanks for sharing your experience in semiotics and using codes. Apart from questioning that a language is itself a code, I agree with you. ETA I'd also wonder whether people use "code" when they mean "cipher". Alan Fox
I wrote:
With the DNA “code,” the weakness is that some people, due to their religious views, misrepresent the term to argue that an intelligence must be behind the “code.”
KF writes:
And more. The dragged out objections have simply shown that we are not dealing with sober minded objections but with ideology.
If imitation is the highest form of flattery, what is projection? Ford Prefect
Sandy at 134, Exactly right. In order to reproduce successfully, signals from within a cell must be triggered correctly, and the genetic code must be transferred correctly. During its life, a cell contains molecular switches that turn on and off, while some stay on for a specific time period in order for the correct amount of water and nutrients to enter the cell and for waste products to exit. This information is coded but it is specific information designed to work as designed. It did not get there through random events. relatd
Did I already ask how it is there are six codons and six leucine tRNAs that result in a leucine residue being added to a growing polypeptide when there is only one leucine tRNA synthetase? Alan Fox
Certain strings of DNA undergo chemical reactions to form a specific protein. The arrangement of amino acids in the protein is dependent on arrangement of nucleotides in the DNA/RNA.
Slight nitpick: DNA in the cell nucleus being transcribed into mRNA do not undergo chemical reactions, only the physical breaking and reforming of hydrogen bonds. Also individual DNA nucleotides act as templates for the mRNA sequences being copied. The triplet code is not involved in transcription. A pairs with T/U, C pairs with G, and vice versa. No codes, just templates. Alan Fox
Jerry (attn PM!, AF et al, Sandy etc), there is a grammar and there is a syntax sufficient to express step by step AA chaining, with start and stop, i.e. algorithms. The string structure and three character codon establish a reading framework. The code is not a general purpose language but it is a meaningful, SVO oriented symbolic character adequate to execute algorithms; AUG does not chemically force a tRNA with anticodon to have Met on it, that is loaded by a separate enzyme beforehand, loaded at the CCA tool tip at the end away from the anticodon. The instructions are given to the ribosome, an execution unit, which initialises, acts in symbolically controlled steps then halts, using mRNA as a string data structure code tape and tRNA as both AA taxis and position-arm devices to aid in chaining, where the tRNAs have a universal CCA tool tip opposite to their anticodons. The key point of coding, as Yockey notes [cf OP] is loading tRNA with loading enzymes, using the universal CCA tool tip. Chemically, obviously, CCA can bind with any AA [and as Yockey notes misloading does happen], it is the aaRS that determines the particular, correct loading. And more. The dragged out objections have simply shown that we are not dealing with sober minded objections but with ideology. KF PS, to correct a strawman, codes are of linguistic character, they do not have to be complete languages to be effective. In context *** - - - *** means SOS, a code for rescue us, similar to Mayday. But being of linguistic character, they are observed and known to be signatures of language using agents. kairosfocus
There is no way around there is no known code that is created by a natural process. All the codes are designed by a mind. DNA is a code therefore is designed by a Mind.
Why direct this comment at me? That's exactly what I said. I just said that all codes are not a language but are created by an intelligence. A language is a code but not all codes are a language. Aside: I was a communication officer in the Navy so I know the various ways that are used to communicate to other living entities. We used flashing light, flags, semaphore and even hand signals occasionally in addition to radios. jerry
PM1, codes used in information processing, storage, communication and computation systems, especially machine codes use arbitrary symbols and implied patterns of meaning. As the Khan Academy example in the OP shows (scroll up, it was there all along), for mRNA, AUG means start, load Met, when in initial position or simply load Met otherwise. Various other codes [and there are about 2 dozen dialects] mean, elongate with particular AAs. There are three classic stop codes. Variants have been created as the OP mentions, dozens of AAs have been added artificially. The codons have been refocussed to store up to 16 GB of Wikipedia, illustrating the string data structure framework. I doubt that any of the main points is new to you. KF kairosfocus
AF et al, The genetic code is a symbolic code, which is inherently linguistic, having characteristics of language. Where, we see that DNA and mRNA use the code to express algorithms for AA chaining towards protein synthesis. You have repeatedly ignored the consensus based on Nobel Prize winning experiments, because of ideological reasons, just as you have tried to pretend for months that to suggest that the genetic code is a code just as the label on the tin says, reflects ignorance, and you refused to be corrected from Lehninger and heirs, Brenner and the reviewers and editors of Nature, or just simply the well known facts. You had ample opportunity, you doubled down on denial. You shattered your own credibility, live with the consequences. KF kairosfocus
Living entities use signals all the time to indicate a particular situation. It doesn't have grammar or syntax but definitely there is communication going on about a particular state of the organism or the environment in which the entity is currently in. Is this a language. I would say so but trying to use human language to analyze it is absurd. In a cell or very primitive life form it could be a chemical signal indicating a state of the cell or life form. We have all witnessed birds singing or making noises. That is communication and a language. But not all codes are life based but all codes are intelligent or life based. The more complicated the code, the higher is the intelligence that created it. Codons are definitely highly complicated codes. But here we are wasting time commenting on the obvious. But this is UD where ID gets ignored and obvious minutiae gets discussed in detail. jerry
FP/AF/KM/AF, drop it, we have the receipts. KF kairosfocus
Jerry, codes are languages and languages are codes. It's about the (functional ) information that is encoded ,transmitted - received and decoded. It's not important the way :spoken or written words,smoke signals, flashlight signals, morse signals or transcription translation signals. There is no way around there is no known code that is created by a natural process. All the codes are designed by a mind. DNA is a code therefore is designed by a Mind. ;) Sandy
@131
The genetic code is not a language. Using words carelessly and anthropomorphically doesn’t change the fact that talking of codes and languages is an exercise in poor analogy.
I'm certainly no expert in linguistics or in philosophy of language, but from what I've read over the years, natural languages have some features in common, including syntax, semantics, and pragmatics. 1. Recursive grammar that encodes morphosyntatic alignment. 2. A topic/comment distinction that marks the difference between what one is talking about and what one is saying about that topic. 3. A range of utterances including declaratives, indicatives, interrogatives, and imperatives. 4. Pragmatics including use of language to track avowals, commitments, attributions amongst inferences 5. Distinction between indexical and non-indexical terms to indicate what assertions are agent-relative and which ones are not. 6. Syntactical devices such as anaophora and deixis to indicate context-dependent senses and references. Again, I'm no expert in any this stuff. I've read a few books and it's come up in my research over the years. Regardless, my understanding is that these are found in all natural languages, which makes sense if one considers the importance of language in facilitating social learning in hominids. Needless to say, I don't see how there's anything like a natural language when it comes to genetic information. How would one identify whether a genetic sequence is an interrogative or a declarative? What would be the nucleotide analogue of anaphora or deixis? I honestly think that anyone who insists that the genetic code is a language, needs to take some time to study linguistics and find out what actually makes something a language. PyrrhoManiac1
Alan Fox (not Ford Prefect or Ken Middlebrook) writes:
The genetic code is not a language. Using words carelessly and anthropomorphically doesn’t change the fact that talking of codes and languages is an exercise in poor analogy.
Not to mention an exercise in misdirection. When describing a scientific observation, we are limited by the language we use to describe it. Certain strings of DNA undergo chemical reactions to form a specific protein. The arrangement of amino acids in the protein is dependent on arrangement of nucleotides in the DNA/RNA. For lack of a better word, biologists refer to the DNA “code.” Which, as an analogy to describe the link between DNA triplet nucleotides and amino acids, is a reasonable analogy. But all analogies have their weaknesses. With the DNA “code,” the weakness is that some people, due to their religious views, misrepresent the term to argue that an intelligence must be behind the “code.” Which is a leap of faith, not of science. Ford Prefect
Codes are linguistic phenomena (as I noted), not necessarily full orbed languages themselves.
The genetic code is not a language. Using words carelessly and anthropomorphically doesn't change the fact that talking of codes and languages is an exercise in poor analogy. Alan Fox
PS, that makes four aliases in one thread.
Who isn't using an alias in this thread? I'm in the minority using my real name. Fair enough, I was posting using the pseudonym Fred Hickson until I gathered the current moderation policy here at UD has relaxed a bit compared to other times, when I reverted to my much-preferred real name. I have never posted comments concurrently under more than one user name. Alan Fox
Codes are linguistic phenomena
No, they are not necessarily. They may be most of the time but there is no necessity that a code be a language. I can imagine someone creating a series of steps based on physical entities which have the only purpose of controlling other physical entities. So they are not a language unless you want to say a physical entity controlling another physical entity is a language. Unless you are saying that anything controlling something else is a language. It is certainly like a language but is definitely not a language in how anyone uses the term. Suppose I construct a series of water channels that lead water out of a valley. As the water get higher, the water goes to a different valley. But if the water gets too high it cuts off all the water coming into a valley through the main source by some sort of mechanism. Maybe a mud slide or maybe some other physical event that is reversible when the water level goes down. Tell me how that is different than your code and why it is a language. There is definitely information in the water flow construction and It's definitely intelligent made. No one would deny that. But no one would call it a language. Language is reserved for live entities communicating with other live entities. Codons while in a live entity are not a live entity. jerry
More generally, the burden of proof requires that a claimant provide evidence and arguments to support their claim if they are concerned about persuading an audience of the merits of such claims. Seversky
Kairosfocus writes:
breeding is not engineering.
Sure it is. It is just indirect genetic engineering. From our friends at Wiki:
The term engineering is derived from the Latin ingenium, meaning "cleverness" and ingeniare, meaning "to contrive, devise"
How does artificial selection not fall under this umbrella? Ford Prefect
I feel I should point out that it is not the job for those of us who can clearly see the obvious, to convince the nincompoop anti-ID crowd of their error. Our job is not to convince the nincompoops but to expose their lunacy. ram
Kairosfocus writes:
PS, that makes four aliases in one thread.
Do you ever get tired of seeing conspiracies everywhere? I admit posting as KM (my real name btw). I am toying with the idea of dumping anonymity. But I have never posted as AF or FH. Ford Prefect
Jerry (& attn PM1): Codes are linguistic phenomena (as I noted), not necessarily full orbed languages themselves. They may appear in machines and systems without someone who is a conscious language user immediately acting, but that is about function not causal origin. We empirically know the causal origin of symbolic codes, language using intelligence, so I for cause read the code as a sign pointing to the causal source. If PM1 wishes to object, let him highlight an actually observed case of complex symbolic encoding of known origin that was not caused by a language using intelligence; instead of pretending that he is dealing with faulty syllogisms. As he is at that task, let him also identify the distinction between what is linguistic and what is a language. Let him further explain how symbolic frameworks and protocols associated with algorithms are not acts of language using intelligence. Indeed, the design of such a complex code based system is a case of FSCO/I. KF kairosfocus
FP/AH/KM/FH, breeding is not engineering. And of course yet again, you duck the string data structure, coded information issue, refuse to acknowledge the body of evidence leading to the consensus on the genetic code and its role in protein synthesis. You cannot even acknowledge the manifest fact that engineering of life by Venter et al is intelligent design. KF PS, that makes four aliases in one thread. kairosfocus
1. The relationship between nucleotide triplets and amino acids is a code. 2. If something is a code, then it is a language. 3. Therefore, the relationship between nucleotide triplets and amino acids is a language. 4. If something is a language, then it was created by a mind. 5. Therefore, the relationship between nucleotide triplets and amino acids was created by a mind.
it should be
1. The relationship between nucleotide triplets and amino acids is a code. 2. If something is a code, then it was created by a mind. 3. Therefore, the relationship between nucleotide triplets and amino acids was created by a mind.
The problem with the original is that language is a code but a code is not necessarily a language because it could be some inanimate entity controlling another inanimate entity by the code. They are similar but not identical. jerry
. We know that cell based life uses string data structure components, specifically using molecular, prong height based information technology as we see from DNA complementarity and tRNA-mRNA anti-codon codon coupling. The same illustrated by AF/KM/FH’s “lame” diagrams in the OP. Where, too, this is based on code, which is inherently linguistic. Absent ideological imposition, the best explanation for cell based life and of associated body plans, from the root of the taxonomic tree on up, is design.
I take the argument be roughly as follows: 1. The relationship between nucleotide triplets and amino acids is a code. 2. If something is a code, then it is a language. 3. Therefore, the relationship between nucleotide triplets and amino acids is a language. 4. If something is a language, then it was created by a mind. 5. Therefore, the relationship between nucleotide triplets and amino acids was created by a mind. I have no objection to (1). But premises (2) and (4) are false. Therefore (3) and (5) are false. PyrrhoManiac1
Kairosfocus writes:
We are seeing engineering of life in preliminary stages through Venter and Co, which of course respects the informational nature of life and of DNA.
No, we have been engineering life for many centuries. And, strangely enough, using selection processes. And the fact that we can now manipulate DNA is no more proof of ID as the best explanation for life than our probable future ability to create life would be. Ford Prefect
Q, actually, it's been about 100 years since Oparin, though we did have earlier fringe stuff and fantasies such as Frankenstein. Ironically, through nuclear bombardment, Au has been made from Hg. And of course there is a vast store of Au in ocean water, so in principle ocean water can be turned into Au. Though, that is refining not transmuting, the alchemists did not know that they did not know of a world of particle and nuclear forces required for transmutation of elements. Where, we can draw a comparison to ignorance of information as a key force. We are seeing engineering of life in preliminary stages through Venter and Co, which of course respects the informational nature of life and of DNA. However, this thread is a marker of decisive high ground. We know that cell based life uses string data structure components, specifically using molecular, prong height based information technology as we see from DNA complementarity and tRNA-mRNA anti-codon codon coupling. The same illustrated by AF/KM/FH's "lame" diagrams in the OP. Where, too, this is based on code, which is inherently linguistic. Absent ideological imposition, the best explanation for cell based life and of associated body plans, from the root of the taxonomic tree on up, is design. The case against the design inference for the world of life has collapsed for want of merits, and those backing ideological censorship have some 'splaining to do. KF kairosfocus
And just as the alchemists of old were never able to achieve their promises, so also are the bio-alchemists of the last few hundred years, who still haven't made progress let alone demonstrate spontaneous generation. Dr. Tour points out in his brilliant videos that pre-biotic evolution is NOT possible. Kairosfocus once again points out the characteristics of structured code, data, and compression in DNA. Others here have demonstrated innumerable times how ID is far more pragmatic than Darwinism. That a number of people here are simply sock puppets of one (maybe two) real people is no surprise to me. In a technical forum some years ago, we exposed someone who also resorted to this tactic. And Ram, the more I've learned about science, the more amazed and humbled I've become at the brilliant genius of the Creator! It's made me far more respectful, appreciative., and honored that Hashem chose to make us. And if the biochemistry and DNA design data is so phenomenally complex, how much more so the thoughts of the Creator! -Q Querius
Jerry, actually, this OP was about the presence of string data structure, coded information in DNA/mRNA. This is the scientific consensus, and we can see how we get the strings by inspection of what has been found out about DNA and mRNA chains, including, first, what a string is. What this thread established, is that we are dealing with objectors who deny, evade or refuse to acknowledge readily ascertained, empirically well founded facts, so we further know that we cannot trust them to be inrtellectually responsible much less truthful on matters that are less direct, such as the course of events in the remote past of origins. We may then freely point out the consensus fact and then from such, infer as to the known cause of codees, string data structures, algorithms and execution machinery. Intelligently directed configuration by language using knowledgeable designers. Where, for infancy stage cases in point we may call forth Venter et al. When we go on to see noise about how ID has no testable hypotheses or the like, we know now to utter certainty, that we are dealing with untrustworthy ideologues who must know their preferred partyline doctrine cannot stand up to the fact of coded algorithms in DNA and mRNA in the cell. The substantial matter is over, on the merits. The design inference won. But, the ideologues will never admit inconvenient truth. Negative credibility. ====== M_r, Sadly, we are dealing with a multiple personality objector, KM, FH and AF, demonstrably, are one and the same. The refusal to acknowledge evident facts has been clearly established, this objector is of negative credibility. Sadly, other objectors, evade the fact, showing that they are more interested in debate points in support of their side than truth. At this point, we know that the design inference has won on the merits. ====== Ram, it is obvious that we are dealing with those who refuse to be accountable before inconvenient, evidence backed truth. With string data structures in DNA and mRNA holding algorithms we may freely infer to the known cause of such phenomena, language using intelligence. At baby stage, we have genetic engineering and the work of Venter et al. In the case of algorithmic code in DNA, we are not telling the scientific community they are wrong, as this is a well evidenced knowable fact. Indeed it is now being turned into a technology. What we are doing is to infer to the known cause of such, design by language using intelligences. Where, as this applies to OOL and OO main body plans (simply to make the proteins for the tissues, organs, limbs etc) we have good reason to hold that design is the best explanation of the world of life we observe. The ideological lockout we also see, then, stands exposed as intellectually irresponsible and abusive. We may now freely proceed on that basis. And, DV, we shall. KF kairosfocus
Ram @115 Touche. by the way, my dog can see it too ... Basically, these OOL-researchers use gold alchemy methods to re-create the most advanced technology on this planet, perhaps in the whole universe. martin_r
Alan Fox: The reason “ID” proponents are ignored because all “ID” arguments boil down to arguments from personal incredulity. Incredulity is a good thing to possess in the face of "scientists" peddling [SNIP]. The scientific mainstream has no need of “ID” hypotheses. The OOL "scientists" are a fairly small, and pathetic group, who make a lot of idiotic claims that are lapped up and amplified by their colluders in the popular press. Anyone with at least 1/2 a brain including my dog can see the con. There is also the issue there are no “ID” scientifically testable hypotheses to be had. The probabilities involved are a very strong argument. The condition of the early earth is a very strong argument. A theory isn't needed. All available evidence point to intelligence as the only plausible cause. Just telling the scientific community their ideas are wrong is not enough. Says who? You? Pointing out their foolishness and paucity of anything close to an explanation for OOL is a good and righteous thing. And enjoyable. ram
Ken Middlebrook @4
Rearranging your word salad and lame graphics doesn’t make your arguments any more compelling ... You hear the word “code” and assume the verb tense of the word. Not the way in which Crick and all other scientists use it.
Ken is a typical Darwinist. He doesn't care about reality and facts. He ignores reality and facts like all Darwinists do. Ken, let me repeat why the information stored in DNA is A LITERAL CODE. This is not an argument with you or with any other Darwinist. I won't argue with you people about facts. I am just telling you. I am telling you what the facts are ... Information in DNA is encoded -- therefore it is a code -- In order to decode it, you need a decoding table/key. Do you get it Ken ? This information is useless without the decoding table. For encoding/decoding you need that decoding table. Here are decoding tables: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_and_RNA_codon_tables Therefore, the information stored in DNA molecule is a literal code. P E R I O D. And it doesn't matter what some Ken or any other Darwinist says. It doesn't matter at all. Ken, you people are so brainwashed, that you deny simple facts. martin_r
Reposted from another current thread that was mainly about OOL. This thread is also about OOL but mainly focuses on the information content that must have arisen to reach life. So the thinking is the same. --------- ID people have to start thinking in a new direction, one that uses logic. There is too much emotion involved on both sides. This discussion is mainly about OOL. But OOL uses natural selection just as Darwinian Evolution does. However, people are in a straight jacket on just what natural selection is. They think if only refers to the final state of a population of live entities called a species. But we readily use if for viruses which are nothing more than a combination of proteins and not alive. So why not chemical compounds? Natural selection is essentially a tautology. Whatever ends up as a stable situation is what natural selection is, that is it cannot be temporary but has to be stable and enduring. It is what ever nature says is a stable situation. This was explained over a month ago as an attempt to discuss natural selection. See https://uncommondescent.com/origin-of-life/paul-davies-on-the-gap-between-life-and-non-life/#comment-775881 No one was interested in trying to understand just what natural selection is. If there is a natural origin to life, it had to follow a natural selection path to the first cell. In other words, it had to evolve or pass through an extremely high number of stable states to become life. For example, if it was a hundred steps, then each step must lead to a stable state, not one that is temporary. My guess it would require thousands of steps, and each step along the way has to be a stable end point. Because it became stable, it was an example of natural selection. In other words nature kept this state as a permanent state for a long period of time. It could also require that two or more separate processes are working to reach the state called life. For example, one process could be the nucleotide accumulation and another could be the cellular wall building independently of each other. But each would have to have many step all of which are stable because it represents some process of many steps that leaves a stable end product. The above has to be logically true, if life was assembled somehow naturally. The search for an OOL solution is then reduced to a search for the possible various steps. The end product is easily done by a superior intelligence but almost impossible for a natural process. Until everyone starts thinking logically and not emotionally, there will be no progress. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/bob-marks-knocks-it-out-of-the-park-on-ai/#comment-778097 jerry
origenes
That would be a fair critique if ID’ers in general would claim that an organism is nothing but a computer or a machine. I say that this is not the case. Here is Jonathan Wells, a wellknown ID figure, writing about Stephen Talbott:
From what I could see and understand so far, I, as an engineer can only repeat that biology is all about engineering. Or, most of the biology is about engineering and I hope and believe that there is something more than a hardcore engineering. But you need that hardcore engineering in the first place. There is no other way around it. Despite Jonathan Wells is one of my most favorite creationists, but biologists should not comment on design and engineering in biology. Doesn't matter whether it is a creationist or darwinian biologist. This is beyond absurd. These people -- natural science graduates -- are not qualified to comment on design and engineering in biology. They don't understand what they are looking at. That is the reason why are all these natural science graduates permanently wrong, and it started with Darwin. The fact that biology is so complex it is not a coincidence. There is no other way around it, these systems have to be that complex, to meet all the requirements we see in nature. Again, biology has to be that complex. It is like wondering, why are Boston Dynamics's humanoid robots that complex :)))))))) Boston Dynamics's engineers wish there will be some other -- a simpler -- way around this complexity :)))))) Only biologists think that complex species can be built on simple footing ... PS: JVL suggested to read some book. If the author of that book is a biologist or any other natural science graduate, it is a time waste. Just another just-so story. I would suggest, that JVL reads YOUR DESIGNED BODY book, written by an engineer. JVL complains that we don't want to read his book, but he never reads "our" books :))))))) JVL, I hope that one day you will finally get it, that reading our books makes way more sense ... martin_r
O, I agree that an organism is not a simple machine, but it does have in it key features that we can examine that function as biological technologies. For an example, our vocal tract is a wind instrument and our hearing effects a fourier transform of sounds using the hairs along the spiral of the cochlea. Our elbows have a hinge joint and our arms and legs are in key parts levers in chains that make up position-arm devices, and our head and neck can be similarly analysed -- for birds, fish and many animals, the head and mouth are key manipulators. Our hips have ball and socket joints. Turning to the cell, the specific feature DNA/mRNA clearly stores information using a four state per character, prong height using string data structure. This is further seen to involve coded algorithmic information used to assemble AA chains towards creating proteins. That can be responsibly taken as empirically anchored fact. That we find persistent denial and evasion in response is sadly telling. KF kairosfocus
JVL (attn, Jerry): We have now passed a sad but significant threshold, which is not a waste of time. The OP documents quite clearly that there is observationally backed reason to accept the consensus that there is coded string data structure information in the cell, but objectors are in at least one case [confirmed, multi label] case denied and on others evaded. And so we have reason to freely conclude not only that it is warranted but is fatal to objectors to the design inference. We have a further case where another objector is unwilling to acknowledge the manifest fact of body plans, something at the root of taxonomy. The veneer of science for objections is shattered; we are dealing with ideology. We may freely hold that the presence of complex coded algorithmic information in the cell is a strong sign of language using design as its best causal explanation. And of course the many evident body plans point to relevant FSCO/I involved in their manifestation. KF kairosfocus
JVL @ 100
Origenes: Read #83
I did. When you can address the actual evidence let me know.
The actual evidence that there is a body plan is in the experiments. The "Picasso-frogs" turn into normal frogs every time. The body plan has real causal power. https://uncommondescent.com/biology/tufts-biologist-asks-where-is-anatomy-coded-in-living-systems/
“So how would something like this work? How could we have a navigating system that can have goals in anatomical space?” — Michael Levin – Where is Anatomy Encoded in Living Systems? – 11:33 minute mark
Origenes
Jerry: This is not new so why address it and waste everyone’s time? Because it's becoming clear that many commenters here are not actually interested in considering the data and evidence even though they continually request it be present to them. What is the point of this forum? If it's just to promote ID then tell everyone who tries to present an alternative view to forget it. JVL
PM1 @29
The concept of genes is helpful, of course. But it is unfortunately also tempting to give in to what Whitehead called ‘the fallacy of misplaced concreteness’, and to miss the fact that the actually existing entity is the biological organism, of which the cell is the minimal unit.
What an organism is, is not the issue here. The focus is on D/RNA as a string data structure. Kairosfocus does not claim that an organism is exhaustively explained by this code or any other code. It cannot be the case that aspects of an organism, such as information in DNA, cannot be discussed because of the glorious insight that the organism is not a machine.
my chief objection to ID at this point is that it is so enamored of engineering metaphors, esp computer engineering metaphors, that it ends up failing to grasp the very category of life as such.
That would be a fair critique if ID’ers in general would claim that an organism is nothing but a computer or a machine. I say that this is not the case. Here is Jonathan Wells, a wellknown ID figure, writing about Stephen Talbott:
I first became acquainted with Talbott’s work by reading some articles by him in The New Atlantis a few years ago. Talbott argued convincingly that living things cannot be adequately understood as combinations of machine-like mechanisms, nor are they controlled by genetic programs in their DNA. There is something very special about them: Organisms exhibit an inner teleology that cannot be reduced to mechanisms or programs. [ Source ]
Origenes
the denial or evasion of the manifest is a telling sign, and that is what we are seeing
This is not new so why address it and waste everyone’s time? jerry
Kairosfocus: the body plans are manifested in the bodies, so where are they is relevant., Fine. Show us where the body plans are in the genome and end the argument. Nothing to do with 'the manifest', just show us the evidence. JVL
Jerry, the denial or evasion of the manifest is a telling sign, and that is what we are seeing. KF kairosfocus
JVL, the body plans are manifested in the bodies, so where are they is relevant. And again, you need to answer say Brenner in Nature. KF kairosfocus
That there is coded information in the genome is obvious. No serious person denies that. When someone does, let them stew in their intellectual cul de sac. It’s what led Crick to the codon/amino acid relationship. However, the most interesting thing is not the codon specifying an amino acid but how it is physically done and assembled. It is similar to an ascii string being interpreted into a machine code instruction inside a computer. jerry
Querius: It would be different if some of them came up with substantive, coherent information and supported objections rather than unsupported assertions and ad hominem attacks. It would raise the level of discourse rather than reducing it to the equivalent of conversational flatulence. When we do you ignore them. I've suggested you read an easily found book and you and other just keep assessing that we haven't stepped up to the plate. You are intentionally ignoring my responses. Why? JVL
Origenes: Read #83 I did. When you can address the actual evidence let me know. JVL
Bornagain77: JVL, nor any other Darwinists, have ANY real-time empirical evidence that body plans are reducible to mutations to DNA. Darwinists haven’t even changed one species of bacteria into another species of bacteria, I think some of the evidence you request is present in Neil Shubin's book. But since you are clearly averse to actually reading that book then I have to ask: why are you asking for evidence which you refuse to consider? It is all ‘just-so story’ telling on the part of Darwinists. And it is certainly NOT empirical science. Again, if we present a source of evidence and you refuse to consider it then . . . Why you want to get off your copy-and-paste train and are willing to engage in a real question and answer session let me know. JVL
@91
PM1, evasive in the teeth of the actual consensus that there is indeed coded information in DNA/mRNA. The that’s the wrong question gambit just shows us how you set out to evade it. That act of evasion tells us a lot. KF
I presented my reasoning above for why I think it's the wrong question. You have (thus far) evaded my reasoning. That act of evasion tells us a lot. PyrrhoManiac1
Kairosfocus: telling people to shut up is quite rude, kindly refrain from doing so again. When I think people are being disingenuous, saying things they don't actually believe or are willing to stand behind, what do you think I should say? You have reconfirmed that you are unwilling to examine even massively obvious evidence that there are well defined architectures for various life forms. The issue is not whether they exist but where they are stored and how they are expressed. It's clear there are no body plans stored in DNA and anyone who says otherwise needs to support their claim with hard, solid, clear evidence. Please, prove me wrong. I am responding to the questions raised to me. Whether or not they relate to the OP is not what I am considering. JVL
Bornagain77 @95,
Sorry, for the ‘distractive tangent’, I will refrain from ‘feeding the trolls’ on your thread.
It would be different if some of them came up with substantive, coherent information and supported objections rather than unsupported assertions and ad hominem attacks. It would raise the level of discourse rather than reducing it to the equivalent of conversational flatulence. My advice is not to respond to troll and trollbot posts. -Q Querius
KF, of course I know "there is coded and esp string data structure information in the living cell". We have been debating Darwinists on this subject on UD for how long now? Sorry, for the 'distractive tangent', I will refrain from 'feeding the trolls' on your thread. bornagain77
JVL @
There is no body plan. What is the matter with you? Support your own beliefs. Or shut up.
Read #83 Origenes
Martin_r @ 28, also Origenes, Kairosfocus, Bornagain77, Great points! Earthquakes or differential erosion never create new buildings. Highly engineered and structured code (including structured DXF data, Kairosfocus), mechanical designs, aeronautic and chemical engineering, along with other human engineering display human brilliance, but they ALL pale against the massive complexity of even so-called "simple" life! To draw other conclusions is simply wishful thinking resulting in science fantasy. Dr. Tour's simple challenge of "Okay, show me," has resulted in vacuous MUSTA, MIGHTA, and EMERGED blah blah along with pathetic ad hominem attacks such as we're seeing here. Such responses exhibit the desperation of some people trying to defend their flimsy ideologies. I was surprised and disappointed that even Pyrrhomanic1 indulged in such blather @71, rather than his more usual, substantive objections and contributions. In contrast, many people with an ID perspective were once Darwinists, myself included. I would have absolutely no trouble in believing that God could have initiated an evolutionary development of life on earth. Actually, I think that would be pretty cool! But beyond some microevolutionary variation, there really isn't any support for Darwinist macroeveolutionary theory and plenty of falsifying evidence, not to mention its disgusting use in justifying racism, European colonialism, and eugenics. Origenes . . . yes, it does seem like we're in some sort of twilight zone regarding the OBVIOUS morphological and genetic evidence for the existence of body plans. Anyone who has ever used a taxonomic key would know this (yes, I have done this many times). -Q Querius
"I’m not going to answer a question..." Drop the mic. PM1 is just another politician at a press conference. Andrew asauber
PM1, evasive in the teeth of the actual consensus that there is indeed coded information in DNA/mRNA. The that's the wrong question gambit just shows us how you set out to evade it. That act of evasion tells us a lot. KF PS, we need not confine string data structure to our mechanically constructed machines. We observe sonar systems with bats and whales not just ships. We see that hearing uses a mechanical fourier transform in the cochlea. We see that vision uses networks of sensors sensitive to light and to differing specta, and more. There is a lot of chemistry in biochemistry. That string data structures would be present in DNA/mRNA and that there is a genetic code can be elucidated from molecular biology and was from the 1950s on. The issue here is where that might point, given that codes are fundamentally a matter of language used with communication systems. kairosfocus
BA77, interesting points, however on what is clearly a distractive tangent. Can you answer for us the focal question in the OP, whether there is coded and esp string data structure information in the living cell, specifically in DNA/mRNA. KF kairosfocus
I do sense this place is strong with the Dark Side of The Force.
More like the Dork Side of the Farce.
PM1, I ask you the same essential question: i/l/o evidence and indicative authorities as cited [and more] is it the case that we have coded information in DNA and mRA, in accord with what is generally called the genetic code? Which, extends to, the use of string data structures to carry said code. KF
I've explained why I think you're asking the wrong question. In any event I'm not going to answer a question that I'm convinced is the wrong question to ask. PyrrhoManiac1
JVL and Seversky definitely do exist in the twilight zone of 'just-so story telling'. Not in the real world of empirical science. JVL, nor any other Darwinists, have ANY real-time empirical evidence that body plans are reducible to mutations to DNA. Darwinists haven't even changed one species of bacteria into another species of bacteria,
Rapid Evolution of Citrate Utilization by Escherichia coli by Direct Selection Requires citT and dctA. - Minnich - Feb. 2016 The isolation of aerobic citrate-utilizing Escherichia coli (Cit(+)) in long-term evolution experiments (LTEE) has been termed a rare, innovative, presumptive speciation event. We hypothesized that direct selection would rapidly yield the same class of E. coli Cit(+) mutants and follow the same genetic trajectory: potentiation, actualization, and refinement. This hypothesis was tested,,, Potentiation/actualization mutations occurred within as few as 12 generations, and refinement mutations occurred within 100 generations.,,, E. coli cannot use citrate aerobically. Long-term evolution experiments (LTEE) performed by Blount et al. (Z. D. Blount, J. E. Barrick, C. J. Davidson, and R. E. Lenski, Nature 489:513-518, 2012, http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature11514 ) found a single aerobic, citrate-utilizing E. coli strain after 33,000 generations (15 years). This was interpreted as a speciation event. Here we show why it probably was not a speciation event. Using similar media, 46 independent citrate-utilizing mutants were isolated in as few as 12 to 100 generations. Genomic DNA sequencing revealed an amplification of the citT and dctA loci and DNA rearrangements to capture a promoter to express CitT, aerobically. These are members of the same class of mutations identified by the LTEE. We conclude that the rarity of the LTEE mutant was an artifact of the experimental conditions and not a unique evolutionary event. No new genetic information (novel gene function) evolved. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26833416
,,, Much less do Darwinists have any evidence that it is even possible to change bacteria into a multi-cellular creature.
"We go from single cell protozoa. Which would be ameoba and things like that. Then you get into some that are a little bit bigger, still single cell, and then you get aggregates, they're still individual cells that aggregate together. They don't seem to have much in the way of cooperation,,, but when you really talk about a functioning organism, that has more than just one type of cell, you are talking about a sponge and you can have hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of cells. So we don't really have organisms that function with say two different types of cells, but there is only five total. We don't have anything like that." - Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin - quote taken from 31:00 minute mark of this following video Natural Limits to Biological Change 2/2 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo3OKSGeFRQ Natural Selection: The Evolution of a Mirage - Neil Thomas - March 7, 2023 Excerpt: As Professor Nick Lane has recently explained, "It is generally assumed that once simple life has emerged, it gradually evolves into more complex forms, given the right conditions. But that’s not what happens on Earth (…) If simple cells had evolved slowly into more complex ones over billions of years, all kinds of intermediate forms would have existed and some still should. But there are none (…) This means that there is no inevitable trajectory from simple to complex life. Never-ending natural selection, operating on infinite populations of bacteria over millions of years, may never give rise to complexity. Bacteria simply do not have the right architecture."16 https://evolutionnews.org/2023/03/natural-selection-the-evolution-of-a-mirage/ 16. Nick Lane, “Lucky to Be There,” in Michael Brooks, ed., Chance: The Science and Secrets of Luck, Randomness and Probability (London: Profile/New Scientist, 2015), pp. 22-33, citations pp. 28, 32.
Shoot, even giving Darwinists the benefit of a multicellular organism as a head start, Darwinists do not even have any empirical evidence that it is even possible to change one multicellular organism into another one.
Response to John Wise - October 2010 Excerpt: But there are solid empirical grounds for arguing that changes in DNA alone cannot produce new organs or body plans. A technique called “saturation mutagenesis”1,2 has been used to produce every possible developmental mutation in fruit flies (Drosophila melanogaster),3,4,5 roundworms (Caenorhabditis elegans),6,7 and zebrafish (Danio rerio),8,9,10 and the same technique is now being applied to mice (Mus musculus).11,12. None of the evidence from these and numerous other studies of developmental mutations supports the neo-Darwinian dogma that DNA mutations can lead to new organs or body plans–,,, (As Jonathan Wells states),,, We can modify the DNA of a fruit fly embryo in any way we want, and there are only three possible outcomes: A normal fruit fly; A defective fruit fly; or A dead fruit fly. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/10/response_to_john_wise038811.html
It is all 'just-so story' telling on the part of Darwinists. And it is certainly NOT empirical science. Darwinists simply have no real-time empirical evidence to back up any of their grandiose claims that it is even possible to change one body plan into another. In fact, they simply ignore many lines of empirical evidence that directly challenge, if not falsify, their claims.
Ask an Embryologist: Genomic Mosaicism - Jonathan Wells - February 23, 2015 Excerpt: I now know as an embryologist,,,Tissues and cells, as they differentiate, modify their DNA to suit their needs. It's the organism controlling the DNA, not the DNA controlling the organism. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/02/ask_an_embryolo093851.html
Moreover, the failure of the reductive materialism of Darwinian evolution to be able to explain the basic form and/or shape of any particular organism occurs at a very low level. Much lower than DNA itself. In the following article entitled 'Quantum physics problem proved unsolvable: Gödel and Turing enter quantum physics', which studied the derivation of macroscopic properties from a complete microscopic description, the researchers remark that even a perfect and complete description of the microscopic properties of a material is not enough to predict its macroscopic behaviour.,,, The researchers further commented that their findings challenge the reductionists' point of view, as the insurmountable difficulty lies precisely in the derivation of macroscopic properties from a microscopic description."
Quantum physics problem proved unsolvable: Gödel and Turing enter quantum physics - December 9, 2015 Excerpt: A mathematical problem underlying fundamental questions in particle and quantum physics is provably unsolvable,,, It is the first major problem in physics for which such a fundamental limitation could be proven. The findings are important because they show that even a perfect and complete description of the microscopic properties of a material is not enough to predict its macroscopic behaviour.,,, "We knew about the possibility of problems that are undecidable in principle since the works of Turing and Gödel in the 1930s," added Co-author Professor Michael Wolf from Technical University of Munich. "So far, however, this only concerned the very abstract corners of theoretical computer science and mathematical logic. No one had seriously contemplated this as a possibility right in the heart of theoretical physics before. But our results change this picture. From a more philosophical perspective, they also challenge the reductionists' point of view, as the insurmountable difficulty lies precisely in the derivation of macroscopic properties from a microscopic description." http://phys.org/news/2015-12-quantum-physics-problem-unsolvable-godel.html
Simply put, Darwinists will NEVER have a 'bottom-up' materialistic explanation for biological form. Of supplemental note to 'bottom-up' vs. 'top-down' causation
Recognising Top-Down Causation - George Ellis Excerpt: Causation: The nature of causation is highly contested territory, and I will take a pragmatic view: Definition 1: Causal Effect If making a change in a quantity X results in a reliable demonstrable change in a quantity Y in a given context, then X has a causal effect on Y.?Example: I press the key labelled “A” on my computer keyboard; the letter “A” appears on my computer screen.,,, Definition 2: Existence If Y is a physical entity made up of ordinary matter, and X is some kind of entity that has a demonstrable causal effect on Y as per Definition 1, then we must acknowledge that X also exists (even if it is not made up of such matter). This is clearly a sensible and testable criterion; in the example above, it leads to the conclusion that both the data and the relevant software exist. If we do not adopt this definition, we will have instances of uncaused changes in the world; I presume we wish to avoid that situation.,,, Excerpt: page 5: A: Both the program and the data are non-physical entities, indeed so is all software. A program is not a physical thing you can point to, but by Definition 2 it certainly exists. You can point to a CD or flashdrive where it is stored, but that is not the thing in itself: it is a medium in which it is stored. The program itself is an abstract entity, shaped by abstract logic. Is the software “nothing but” its realisation through a specific set of stored electronic states in the computer memory banks? No it is not because it is the precise pattern in those states that matters: a higher level relation that is not apparent at the scale of the electrons themselves. It’s a relational thing (and if you get the relations between the symbols wrong, so you have a syntax error, it will all come to a grinding halt). This abstract nature of software is realised in the concept of virtual machines, which occur at every level in the computer hierarchy except the bottom one [17]. But this tower of virtual machines causes physical effects in the real world, for example when a computer controls a robot in an assembly line to create physical artefacts. Excerpt page 7: The assumption that causation is bottom up only is wrong in biology, in computers, and even in many cases in physics,,,, The mind is not a physical entity, but it certainly is causally effective: proof is the existence of the computer on which you are reading this text. It could not exist if it had not been designed and manufactured according to someone’s plans, thereby proving the causal efficacy of thoughts, which like computer programs and data are not physical entities. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1212.2275.pdf
bornagain77
JVL, telling people to shut up is quite rude, kindly refrain from doing so again. As for:
There is no body plan. What is the matter with you? If you think it exists then find it.
You have reconfirmed that you are unwilling to examine even massively obvious evidence that there are well defined architectures for various life forms. The issue is not whether they exist but where they are stored and how they are expressed. Next, I cannot but observe that you have steadfastly ignored the central question posed from the OP on. I am on the verge of inferring that you know the correct answer is, yes there is coded info, but to answer yes would violate the now obvious zero concessions policy of too many objectors to the design inference. Please, prove me wrong. KF kairosfocus
Asauber: I have a laundry list of books you should read about my position and I’m sure you’ll go right out and get them and read them as soon as I provide you the list. Not exactly the point is it? You keep asking me and other for evidence so we expect you to respect our responses. Which you don't. I haven't asked you for evidence for your stance but please tell me the top book on your list. JVL
the same?
Pretty much. Though, I will definitely say that I have been introduced to some new things by you over the years. So thank you for that. And a couple comments by others have led me to some interesting ideas, especially diet and health. Aside: I post here to mainly leave a record of what I believe are interesting ideas I come across. Many of them are from UD that were discussed several year ago. I am interested in truth and learning so I leave a record of my thoughts here, a lot of it based on what others have said elsewhere and in the past. I will continue to do so. Am currently going over comments made here 16 years ago as well as several written pieces by the most knowledgeable on ID. I have little expectation that anything I say will lead anyone here to some better insight. Most of those who post here are not interested in anything new. That's obvious. jerry
Origenes: My question is: where is the body plan stored? My question is not about evolution. There is no body plan. What is the matter with you? If you think it exists then find it. Support your own beliefs. Or shut up. Is this the twilight zone? Find it if you think it exists. Or shut up. JVL
~ Body Plan in Action !! ~ Tufts Biologist Asks, Where Is Anatomy Coded In Living Systems?
So here’s a tadpole, the gut, the brain, the nostrils, and the eyes here. This tadpole needs to become a frog. In order for a tadpole face to become a frog face, things have to move. So the jaw has to move, the eyes have to move forward, everything has to move. And it used to be thought that this process was hardwired because if you are a standard tadpole and you want to be a standard frog, all you have to remember is which direction and by how much every piece of the face moves. We suspected that there was more intelligence to this process than that, and so we did an experiment. We created so-called “Picasso’ frogs. So these are tadpoles in which everything is messed up. The eyes are on the side of the head, the jaws are off to the side, the nostrils are too far back. I mean everything is in the wrong position. And we found that these animals still, largely, make pretty normal frogs. Because all of these pieces will move in novel paths, sometimes they go too far and have to double back, to give you a normal frog.
Origenes
Seversky, is there coded information in the cell, including string data structures? Jerry, the same? Relatd, you too? KF kairosfocus
Jerry at 79, Then why do you post here? relatd
Seversky at 78, [said with a Stormtrooper voice] This is the Seversky we've been looking for. You're under arrest! No trip to Alderaan for you... relatd
79 comments - approximate - a typical thread of a few people talking with each other over nothing Kairosfocus - 16 Querius - 1 Bornagain77 - 1 Qrigines - 9 Alan Fox -10 JVL - 21 Relatd - 7 Seversky - 1 Other - 13 jerry
Origenes/75
Is this the twilight zone?
Could be. I do sense this place is strong with the Dark Side of The Force. Seversky
JVL, I already did, you just ignored what I pointed to. As in, look all around you starting with the five-fingered appendages on your fore limbs (also, your alimentary canal from input end on), and going to contrast between sea urchins, fungi, pine trees, flying birds (and penguins), whales, seals, lizards vs dinosaurs, sponges, molluscs, prokaryotes vs eukaryotes -- and what are viruses -- etc, just to list out various templates manifest in body forms. The issue is not whether there are evident deeply stamped body plans but where they are stored and how they are effected. Body plans are key FSCO/I and need to be adequately explained. This comes down to things as basic as the differences between us and chimps etc or how our teeth mesh together. Meanwhile, is there coded information in the cell needs to be addressed, not least as this is a calibration of your responsiveness to strongly empirically founded conclusions. KF kairosfocus
OK, JVL. I have a laundry list of books you should read about my position and I'm sure you'll go right out and get them and read them as soon as I provide you the list. Let me know when you are ready. I can start with a list of ten, so you aren't overwhelmed. If you don't want to, I can only conclude you are deathly afraid. Andrew asauber
Kairosfocus: there is no body plan?
JVL: Yup. If you think there is one then please support that claim.
Is this the twilight zone? Origenes
PM1, I ask you the same essential question: i/l/o evidence and indicative authorities as cited [and more] is it the case that we have coded information in DNA and mRA, in accord with what is generally called the genetic code? Which, extends to, the use of string data structures to carry said code. KF kairosfocus
JVL
as is apparent, you’re not interested in read a book which addresses a lot of your concerns. Which means you might be incorrect that we don’t have a viable, empirically well-founded theory that you ask for.
My question is: where is the body plan stored? My question is not about evolution. Origenes
Kairosfocus: there is no body plan? Yup. If you think there is one then please support that claim. You are the one saying the accepted view is incorrect; it's up to you to support that claim. Can you support that claim? Yes or no? JVL
@61 I wouldn't say that the ID supporters here are afraid of having their beliefs challenged. It's rather that they are completely incurious and lazy. To read something for themselves requires effort. They want everything spoon-fed to them. PyrrhoManiac1
Origenes: Starting with a single cell, the body builds itself without an explanation then. No, not without explanation. Are you sure you really do understand the unguided evolutionary argument 'cause you make some really dumb comments for someone who claims to know the argument. These control genes cannot do whatever they want, they must operate strictly according to a body plan. Just like other genes they can be changed by mutations. So, please, stop the evasion, and tell us where the body plan is stored. Right, I get it now. You don't actually care or want to hear anything which disagrees with your view. You're not being scientific. You're not going to read anything which might established something which you think isn't true. I got it now. There is no point in talking to you. You are absolutely convinced of your view and are closed to anything which says otherwise. Whew. That's going to save me some time. JVL
AS, the elephant hurling and want of citation imply that the evidence being claimed is probably underwhelming, once the ideological imposition of evolutionary materialistic scientism is off the table. KF kairosfocus
JVL, there is no body plan? Really, we can and do infer such from massively evident patterns that are reflected in taxonomy but more particularly show up in major structural patterns. The issue is, that there is far too much complex, functionally specific information in hosts of body structures to be explained on a few twists with regulatory genes. And indeed, it is readily seen from genome patterns that an original cell needed 100 - 1,000 k bases in genomes but we jump to 10 - 100 million bases for basic body plans. And more. Meanwhile, going back to the focal question, can you agree with say Sydney Brenner and Nature's editors or Lehninger and heirs, that there is coded information in the cell? That, for protein synthesis, we have an identified genetic code with some 20 dialects, that such involves initiation, onward steps and halting, i.e. is algorithmic? That is what some objectors have tried to suggest is a gross error. If you think that the consensus that there is code is right, can you let us know, and if you join with AF/KM/FH in denial, kindly explain why the consensus is wrong. KF kairosfocus
Kairosfocus: in short, you do not have a viable, empirically well founded theory of origin of body plans from a unicellular ancestor, to join with absence of an empirically founded theory of origin of cell based life by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. OR, as is apparent, you're not interested in read a book which addresses a lot of your concerns. Which means you might be incorrect that we don't have a viable, empirically well-founded theory that you ask for. If you won't look at the evidence when we present it then how serious are you? Really? Do you really want to find out what the recent evidence and data and lab results point to or not? JVL
JVL @
The book says there is no body plan. Just like a lot of other books.
Starting with a single cell, the body builds itself without an explanation then. Why should I read that book?
What you need is to have the control genes change.
These control genes cannot do whatever they want, they must operate strictly according to a body plan. So, please, stop the evasion, and tell us where the body plan is stored. Origenes
Asauber: I’m not saying you are lying. I’m saying you are lazy, which would probably indicate whatever it is isn’t that important to you, and us. If it was, you would present it to us. Oh, right. Because there are no massive quotes from the book that I can reproduce on this blog (given the posting limits) I'm lazy? Really? Because I can't find a quote which encapsulates a whole book I'm lazy. Really? I guess you expect me to spend hours and hours and hours converting my hard copy into text I can post here. Yes? Because otherwise I'm not sincere. Yes? The whole point of recommending the book is because it's a coherent and concise summary of a lot of research (including lab research) which addressed a lot of the concerns you raise about unguided evolution. AND, guess what, you keep finding reasons to avoid saying: thanks, I'll look for that book and read it. Why is that? Are you really interested in the data and evidence (including lab results) or not? It's your call. Oh, by the way: even reviews are limited by copyright laws in what they can reproduce online. But you knew that which makes me wonder why you think I'm lazy for not having given you more text. JVL
"Are you saying if I can’t reproduce or link to a quote from the actual book which says everything in the book I’m lying?" JVL, I'm not saying you are lying. I'm saying you are lazy, which would probably indicate whatever it is isn't that important to you, and us. If it was, you would present it to us. Andrew asauber
PM1 & JVL, in short, you do not have a viable, empirically well founded theory of origin of body plans from a unicellular ancestor, to join with absence of an empirically founded theory of origin of cell based life by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. Meanwhile, it is massively empirically well warranted that cells use coded, algorithmic information in protein synthesis, which directly lends strong support to inferring that the best explanation is the known cause of such, language using intelligence. The difference in institutional preference, meanwhile, is best explained on ideology. Specifically, the dominance of evolutionary materialistic scientism. KF kairosfocus
Asauber: I submit that if you can’t quote or link to the quote what it is you think is significant, then you are just playing games. I did link to a review which has a good summary of some of what is discussed in the book. Are you saying if I can't reproduce or link to a quote from the actual book which says everything in the book I'm lying? Really? That's your scientific criteria? You won't read something because someone can't provide an online resource which says everything in the book? Really? This is the level of scientific reasoning that you guys use? Really? JVL
Relatd: My review: Clearly, clearly, clearly… The author ignores a number of posts made here, including this thread, which refute unguided evolution. He’s clearly afraid to read them. Okay, you're afraid to read the book. Noted. Playing games? Here? Who would… oh wait. Like I said: you're afraid to read the book. JVL
Origenes: A book that says where the body plan is stored? Where is the body plan stored according to this book? The book says there is no body plan. Just like a lot of other books. Does that mean you aren't going to read it? Because it doesn't agree with you? What if you're wrong? Are you NOT going to read everything which you think (ahead of time) isn't correct? JVL
Andrew at 58, Playing games? Here? Who would... oh wait. relatd
"IF you really want to get a good explanation then you should read it." JVL, I submit that if you can't quote or link to the quote what it is you think is significant, then you are just playing games. Andrew asauber
JVL at 55, My review: Clearly, clearly, clearly... The author ignores a number of posts made here, including this thread, which refute unguided evolution. He's clearly afraid to read them. :) relatd
JVL @
In fact, there is a very good book written for non-specialists explaining it all pretty well.
A book that says where the body plan is stored? Where is the body plan stored according to this book? Origenes
Relatd: Morphological? No, there isn’t. The Designer – the Christian God – reused design instructions. Evolution? No, not as presented here. Clearly you are not interested in the actual evidence that you are always saying doesn't exist. Clearly you are not even going to put yourself in a position of having to even make a small attempt to understand that which you claim is false. Clearly you are not actually operating in any kind of scientific mode. Clearly you should stop pretending that you care about the evidence, that you understand the unguided evolution theory, that you have any kind of open mind about the issues. I’ve got photos of my lemur-like ancestor if you want to see them… So, you invented a Time Machine as well? It is pretty astonishing to me that ID supporter after ID supporter says: read this article, watch this video, read this book and everyone thinks how lovely that is. When I say: here's a book that addresses some of your concerns I'm shouted down as being some kind of idiot or insincere agent. IF not one of you actually cares to consider the evidence you've asked for when you are told where you can find it then why do you ask in the first place? Is it all just some kind of game you're playing to make yourselves feel good? Are you afraid to actually look at the arguments and evidence? Are you being scientific at all? JVL
JVL at 52, Morphological? No, there isn't. The Designer - the Christian God - reused design instructions. Evolution? No, not as presented here. I've got photos of my lemur-like ancestor if you want to see them... :) :) relatd
Relatd: He left out: Only in my imagination. This doesn’t even qualify as science fiction. Vaguely science fantasy… You're quoting a reviewer! You really are afraid to read the actual book aren't you? You really don't want to hear the actual argument and learn about the actual evidence INCLUDING lab work do you? IF you're going to ignore actual evidence then please stop saying there isn't any. If you are going to put your fingers in your ears and chant LA LA LA LA when someone tells you where to find some of the answers you are looking for then please stop asking for it. “Hey Bob, what’s a shibboleth?” So, you haven't got a dictionary either? JVL
Relatd: I do wish you’d realize that unguided means unguided. And the human and ape common ancestor, when did it live (+/- 10,000 years)? I suspect you have no actual evidence. Of course I know what unguided means. Are you intentionally being insulting or just rude? Which 'ape' and human common ancestor are you talking about? There's fossil and genomic evidence of course. And morphologic. Which you probably know but are denying for some reason. (Oh and, by the way, when did it live is super easy to find out . . . IF you really want to know. Do you really want to know or are you just changing the subject because you've got nothing to say about what I said before?) JVL
JVL at 49, Fear. That's it. Thank you Doctor JVL... your credibility is not good. "Hey Bob, what's a shibboleth?" What? :) :) relatd
JVL at 46, "Shubin reveals there is a plethora of pathways to rapid evolution and sudden transformations." He left out: Only in my imagination. This doesn't even qualify as science fiction. Vaguely science fantasy... relatd
Relatd: The usual “you don’t understand.” Oh, I understand alright. Long before coming here I dealt with similar non-arguments elsewhere. Based on some things you say you don't seem to understand what the real argument is. You seem to replace the real argument with your version of it thereby creating a straw-man version which no one actually supports. IF you really want to know what the real argument is then you should spend more time trying to learn what it is. I would recommend Dr Shubin's book: it's inexpensive (maybe free at your local library), it's easy to read and understand, AND it's more up-to-date than many of the quotes that get copy-and-pasted here. I'm quite sure you won't actually read the book which makes me wonder if you're afraid to read it in case some of your shibboleths are undercut. JVL
Change your mind *click* Change your mind. I do wish you'd realize that unguided means unguided. And the human and ape common ancestor, when did it live (+/- 10,000 years)? I suspect you have no actual evidence. relatd
Asauber: “Go read a book” sucks as argumentation. You can recommend a book. That’s all you can do. The idea here is to present your perspective. If the game changer is in a book, quote it or link it or something. I have presented my perspective, many times. When asked why I think that way or what evidence there is SOMETIMES I tell you about an easy to find and read book which lays it out nicely. IF you really want to get a good explanation then you should read it. Unless you're afraid. Are you afraid? JVL
From https://inquisitivebiologist.com/2020/03/25/book-review-some-assembly-required-decoding-four-billion-years-of-life-from-ancient-fossils-to-dna/
When Charles Darwin formulated his ideas, he was candid about weaknesses and gaps in his thinking. Shubin opens the book with one vocal critic, St. George Jackson Mivart, who thought Darwin’s ideas were flawed. If evolution is a process of gradual changes via mutation and natural selection, then how are major transitions supposed to arise? It sounds like a sensible question and to this day creationists like to trot out this argument. Darwin had five words for Mivart (and I am not building up to an obscenity-laden punchline here): by a change of function. Shubin beautifully clarifies this on page 27: “innovations never come about during the great transitions they are associated with”. I am just going to step back while you read that sentence again. What Shubin gets at is that evolution takes shortcuts. Rather than inventing new traits from scratch, it repurposes existing ones. Examples Shubin gives are air-breathing in fish, which was repurposed to make lungs in land animals, and feathers on dinosaurs that originally evolved in a different context, but were repurposed for flight. Shubin has spent a research career working on our fishy ancestor, Tiktaalik rosaea, which was the subject of his previous book. This is but one of the many ways in which evolution can achieve rapid and major transitions. Subtle changes during embryonic development can have large impacts later in life. Shubin introduces German naturalists Karl Ernst von Baer, who observed that early-stage embryos of different species looked very similar, and Ernst Haeckel, who took that idea too far with his motto “ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny” and took some liberties with his famous embryo drawings.
Time and again, Shubin shows how evolution can reuse, repurpose, or rejiggle already existing structures and processes. I don’t know about you, but these kinds of spine-tingling revelations were what drew me to study biology.
Another powerhouse of innovation is DNA, and genetics can tell us much about evolution. These sections are a giddy ride where Shubin highlights one after another stupendous concept. Take the huge similarity between e.g. chimps and humans: genome sequencing revealed some 95%-98% similarity. Why are we so different then? Because DNA is not just a molecule containing gene after gene. Like a circuit board, it is a network, where some pieces of DNA function as switches that turn other genes on and off. This is the field of evolutionary development or evo-devo and offers another way for small changes to have big effects. (On a side-note, it would offer a possible mechanism for Noam Chomsky’s proposed single mutation that led to human language, see my review of Why Chimpanzees Can’t Learn Language and Only Humans Can.) Hox genes control the development of whole body segments and can be repurposed to make other structures, such as limbs. Most DNA does not even code for anything and Susumu Ohno surmised it results from copying processes gone wild, whether gene, chromosome or whole-DNA duplication (biologists call this last one polyploidy, it is common in plants). And then there is Barbara McClintock’s discovery of jumping genes: selfish genetic elements that multiply and willy-nilly insert themselves all over a DNA molecule. If rogue replication sounds an awful lot like cancer, well, that is because it is – evolution and cancer are closely linked. And how about this? If such a jumping gene mutates and becomes a genetic switch, they can insert switches all over a genome. Dramatic new traits that at first sight would require an unlikely number of separate mutations suddenly become a whole lot more plausible. One example Shubin provides is the evolution of pregnancy.
Shubin reveals there is a plethora of pathways to rapid evolution and sudden transformations. Some Assembly Required is a very pleasant mix of the latest science, the historical roots of ideas, and the people behind them. Not infrequently, these stories of discovery show multiple people converging on the same idea at the same time (as was the case for Darwin and Wallace). Or show people being far ahead of their time, resulting in them being ignored or even ostracized for heretical views. The latter, sadly, involves a fair share of brilliant women whose ideas were initially not taken seriously.
I do not understand why any of you who claim to want to understand how all this unguided evolution is supposed to work would not want to read an explanation about how some of it does work. Unless you're afraid of having to change your mind. Are you afraid of having to change your mind? Are you? Anyway, at the very least stop saying that no one has provided you with some evidence. It's there and easy to get, possibly even in your local library. JVL
JVL at 35, The usual "you don't understand." Oh, I understand alright. Long before coming here I dealt with similar non-arguments elsewhere. relatd
Pyrrho @29
So, my chief objection to ID at this point is that it is so enamored of engineering metaphors, esp computer engineering metaphors, that it ends up failing to grasp the very category of life as such. It is not a theory of biological organisms; it is a theory of very fancy machinery.
You see? This is how you Darwinists have been misinterpreting reality for 150+ years. The fact is, that biology is ALL ABOUT ENGINEERING. Why ? It is pretty simple. There is no other way around it :))))) ONCE AGAIN - THERE IS NO OTHER WAY AROUND IT ! Look at octopus and its real time adaptive camouflage. HOW ON EARTH CAN YOU GET SUCH FEATURES WITHOUT ENGINEERING ???????? Let me guess: YOU DON'T KNOW OF COURSE YOU DON'T :)))))) Because you CAN NOT :))))) (Only biologists can, when they dream and making up their fairy tales/just-so stories .... ) You people (Darwinists) invented this term "Biology". As if using this word solves all the engineering problems we see on biology :)))))) You people are so confused .... because species are not made of steel, plastic and copper wires, it is not engineering ? :)))))))) you people are so confused ... You people (Darwinists) have been misinterpreting reality for 150 years. martin_r
Bornagain77: Bluff and Bluster, Thy name is JVL! You could read the book and find out . . . or are you afraid you'd have to change your mind about something if you did read it? JVL
JVL, "Go read a book" sucks as argumentation. You can recommend a book. That's all you can do. The idea here is to present your perspective. If the game changer is in a book, quote it or link it or something. Andrew asauber
Sandy: I’m reading Neil Shubin quotes . ? 99% atheist darwinist nonsense. So, you're not reading all the pages of explanation and checking out the references? And you're being scientific? JVL
Bluff and Bluster, Thy name is JVL!
The Evolution of the Darwin Fish - February 17, 2018 - David F. Coppedge Excerpt: Darwinians believe that fish crawled out onto land—their fins becoming pentadactyl limbs—then returned back to the sea multiple times in the form of ichthyosaurs, pinnipeds and whales.,,, After Darwin, various ‘transitional’ fish with bony fins were subsequently proposed and deposed (see sign, above), but Darwinians didn’t become excited until Neil Shubin’s Tiktaalik fossil (6 April 2006), though some disagreed (4 December 2008).,,, Subsequently, though, tetrapod tracks were found a full 10 million Darwin Years earlier (6 January 2010), undermining Shubin’s claim to have found a transitional form. Darwinians are still hunting. Some of their claims seem outlandish (if you’ll pardon the pun). Who would think that rays and skates would be candidates? Sharks and rays—cartilaginous fish—don’t look ready to crawl onto the land. Science Daily, though, jumps on a new idea coming out of the New York University School of Medicine: “Walking fish suggests locomotion control evolved much earlier than thought.” [Thought by whom? See tontology.] Cartoons that illustrate evolution depict early vertebrates generating primordial limbs as they move onto land for the first time. But new findings indicate that some of these first ambulatory creatures may have stayed under water, spawning descendants that today exhibit walking behavior on the ocean floor. The results appear February 8 in the journal Cell. “It has generally been thought that the ability to walk is something that evolved as vertebrates transitioned from sea to land,” says senior author Jeremy Dasen, a developmental neurobiologist in the Department of Neuroscience and Physiology at the New York University School of Medicine. “We were surprised to learn that certain species of fish also can walk. In addition, they use a neural and genetic developmental program that is almost identical to the one used by higher vertebrates, including humans.“ https://crev.info/2018/02/evolution-darwin-fish/ Attenborough, read your mail: Evolution is messier than TV - February 2014 - with video Excerpt: The Polish trackways establish that Tiktaalik wasn’t anywhere near the first tetrapod, so the most important information about the transition to land doesn’t even include Tiktaalik at present.,,, Some fish today routinely spend time out of the water, using a variety of mechanisms. But there is no particular reason to believe that they are on their way to becoming full time tetrapods or land dwellers. So we would need to be cautious about assuming that specific mechanisms that might be useful on land are definitive evidence of a definite, permanent move to full-time land dwelling. A friend writes to point out a modern-day examples that illustrates this, the walking shark: http://www.uncommondescent.com/evolution/attenborough-read-your-mail-evolution-is-messier-than-tv/ Debunking “Professor Dave’s” Hit Piece Against Stephen Meyer Günter Bechly - November 28, 2022 Excerpt: Fish-tetrapod transition: This transition is far from being resolved in a gradual way, which is why a recent study concluded that “the fish-to-tetrapod transition is one of the fundamental problems in evolutionary biology” (Wood & Nakamura 2018). Is there a series of transitional fossils morphologically connecting lobe-finned fish and tetrapods? Yes, they are often called fishapods, and include famous taxa like Tiktaalik and Ichthyostega. Do tetrapods appear gradually from these fishapods? No, not by any stretch of the imagination! Actually, the oldest evidence for tetrapods (the Zachelmie tracks from Poland) predates the oldest fishapods by 10 million years (Ahlberg 2019). It even predates fish-like forms such as Eusthenopteron that rather resembled a salmon. Of course, this inconvenient truth can be explained away with ad hoc hypotheses like ghost lineages and an incomplete fossil record. What cannot be explained away is the simple fact of an extremely sudden appearance of tetrapods. But there is not just this temporal paradox of assumed descendants being older than their assumed ancestors. There are also large gaps in the morphological transition. This holds true especially for the transition from typical pectoral and pelvic lobe-fins to the typical tetrapod hand and foot skeleton with phalanges, for which the first evidence was just recently discovered in a well-preserved specimen of Elpistostege (Cloutier et al. 2020). https://evolutionnews.org/2022/11/debunking-professor-daves-hit-piece-against-stephen-meyer/
Casey Luskin quoted Shubin himself in his rebuttal of Falk's claim about fish fins being proof for Darwinian evolution:
Revealing Darrel Falk’s Overstatements about Limb Bones in Fish Fins Casey Luskin - June 3, 2021 Excerpt: Deep Homology or Deep Trouble for Neo-Darwinism? As noted above, the authors of the Cell paper (as well as Yano and Tamura, 2013) cite Shubin et al. (2009) to claim that the common developmental pathways that produce these mutant bones in fish fins and normal bones in tetrapod limbs show “deep homology.” But Shubin et al. reveal that the very concept of “deep homology” was born out of data that was unexpected under a neo-Darwinian evolutionary paradigm: "One of the most important, and entirely unanticipated, insights of the past 15 years was the recognition of an ancient similarity of patterning mechanisms in diverse organisms, often among structures not thought to be homologous on morphological or phylogenetic grounds. In 1997, prompted by the remarkable extent of similarities in genetic regulation between organs as different as fly wings and tetrapod limbs, we suggested the term ‘deep homology’ to describe the sharing of the genetic regulatory apparatus that is used to build morphologically and phylogenetically disparate animal features." In other words, there are some structures — they give examples of bird wings vs. fly wings, insect legs vs. vertebrate legs, or insect eyes vs. jellyfish eyes vs. vertebrate eyes — that have no obvious homology but use similar genes for their construction. Neo-Darwinism did not predict this data, which is why Shubin et al. called this discovery “entirely unanticipated.” From a design standpoint, we might have expected this data under the idea of common design, where there is re-usage of common genetic programs in widely diverse organisms. Could the same thing be going on here, where similar genetic programs were intelligently designed in fish and tetrapods to control fin or limb growth, even though there is not necessarily an evolutionary link between these structures? https://evolutionnews.org/2021/06/revealing-darrel-falks-overstatements-about-limb-bones-in-fish-fins/
etc.. etc.. etc.. bornagain77
Neil Shubin’s book
https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/767633.Neil_Shubin I'm reading Neil Shubin quotes . :) 99% atheist darwinist nonsense. Sandy
Kairosfocus: show us some body plan origin based on “What you need is to have the control genes change . . . ” As I have already said quite a few times I recommend starting with Neil Shubin's book Some Assembly Required. It's a good introduction to the basic idea. IF you choose not to read it that's your call but you can't keep saying no one has tried to provide at least some of what you ask for. It's up to you to actually spend the time to so some work and some reading. Predictably, you will not be able to do so. Read the book. You might even be able to get it from your local library at no additional cost to yourself. JVL
Origenes: In their magical world, the body builds itself without explanation, just like grandma’s fridge fills itself up. I didn't say it happened without explanation (unlike the design inference which did just happen at some undisclosed time and place). In fact, there is a very good book written for non-specialists explaining it all pretty well. And I have suggested it to many people on this forum. Clearly no one actually cares to find out. It is actual science even if you choose to not learn about it. JVL
PM1 & JVL, show us some body plan origin based on “What you need is to have the control genes change . . . ” starting from unicellular organisms, and embracing the main kingdoms and phyla etc of life. Predictably, you will not be able to do so.
It's easy to "predict" that someone won't be able to do something when no one is able to do it.
Meanwhile, can you agree that we find algorithmic, protein AA chain building code and associated execution molecular scale machinery in the cell?
No; as per my 29, this whole way of thinking about molecular biology is fundamentally confused because it relies on a category mistake: that of failing to apprehend the categorial distinction between organisms and machines.
That is the actual pivotal point for it points to the need for an empirically adequate cause at the root of biological life. The only empirically observed cause of algorithms, code and associated execution machinery is language using designers.
The fact that symbol-manipulating intelligent minded animals can collaboratively learn how to construct algorithms and codes and can also, individually and cooperatively, improve and refine algorithms and codes, and do so in order to solve tasks they face in coping with their physical and social environments tells us nothing at all about whether any of those features of empirically observable algorithm generation were necessary for the origin of biological information during abiogenesis. PyrrhoManiac1
Relatd: VL has lost his credibility as a commentator. Well, clearly you don't understand how the system works. Which means you haven't read any decent book explaining it. Which is kind of sad since you think you understand it so well. JVL
JVL has lost his credibility as a commentator. relatd
JVL: There is no ‘body plan’ in the genome, no blueprint or schematic.
There are people, like JVL, who do not see any problem with this. They do not question things, because, in their child-like mindset, things are what they are, and simply take care of themselves. In their magical world, the body builds itself without explanation, just like grandma's fridge fills itself up. Origenes
PM1 & JVL, show us some body plan origin based on "What you need is to have the control genes change . . . " starting from unicellular organisms, and embracing the main kingdoms and phyla etc of life. Predictably, you will not be able to do so. Meanwhile, can you agree that we find algorithmic, protein AA chain building code and associated execution molecular scale machinery in the cell? That is the actual pivotal point for it points to the need for an empirically adequate cause at the root of biological life. The only empirically observed cause of algorithms, code and associated execution machinery is language using designers. KF kairosfocus
r_M, yes, there is an obvious code, but -- give them their due -- that is generally accepted. The issue at UD is that some objectors . . . aware of implications . . . have taken to pretending there is no code, and are suggesting to those who do not know better, that to point to the code is a gross blunder of our alleged ignorance [and/or stupidity, insanity or wickedness, doubtless]. That speaks sad volumes on the willingness to suppress the force of the substance that yes, cell based life manifestly rests on code. As for the willingness to mislead those who do not know better and are inclined to be hostile to the design inference, that too speaks even sadder volumes. KF kairosfocus
Origenes: Let that sink in. There is no 'body plan' in the genome, no blueprint or schematic. What there is is a bunch of sequences which create various proteins and other sequences which turn those off and on based on environmental data and input. You can't look at the human genome and find a single sequence that 'builds' the brain or a leg. Also, this is why you don't need massive number of mutations to get different body plans. What you need is to have the control genes change. All the basic building blocks are already available but changing when they are made is key. JVL
I don't have any objections to the fact that genetic information can be described with a code, though I think that focusing too much on genes is a mistake. The concept of genes is helpful, of course. But it is unfortunately also tempting to give in to what Whitehead called 'the fallacy of misplaced concreteness', and to miss the fact that the actually existing entity is the biological organism, of which the cell is the minimal unit. The debate between the Modern Synthesis and the Extended Synthesis is whether evolution should be understood as a gene-centered or as an organism-centered process. The Modern Synthesis treats genes as the "atoms" of biology, passively reshuffled by mutation and selection. It is therefore an "object theory": it is a theory of evolution that understands biology in terms of a distinct class of objects. The Extended Synthesis is an organism-centered theory and allows (in some versions!) that organisms are agentsor subjects. One of the important lessons from 20th century cybernetics is that agency requires self-control, or more precisely, an endogenous locus of modulation that can guide what an agent does in its environment and how it responds to environmental changes. For cells, genetic information plays that role as part of overall cellular metabolism. But computers have nothing at all like metabolism, because a computer will be at thermodynamic equilibrium with its environment unless someone plugs it in and uses it. Cells do not need to be plugged in, because what it is to be alive is to be engaged in the activity necessary to maintain the system at far from equilibrium with its environment. Genetic transcription and translation are necessary for that self-sustaining, self-maintaining agency. So, my chief objection to ID at this point is that it is so enamored of engineering metaphors, esp computer engineering metaphors, that it ends up failing to grasp the very category of life as such. It is not a theory of biological organisms; it is a theory of very fancy machinery. PyrrhoManiac1
I, as an engineer with decent IT background could talk about data strings all night long. MAIN REASON why the information stored in DNA molecule is a literal code is the following: The information in DNA molecule is ENCODED. PERIOD. During transcription is being DECODED based on decoding table. PERIOD. (decoding table: UAA stands for Phenylalanine .... CUU stands for Leucine ... etc .... ) It is so simple, but obviously, natural science graduates having hard time to understand very simple things ... or they do understand, but intentionally lie to lay public (because they hate religious people??) Again, the information in DNA is encoded and you need a decoder with decoding table/key in order to extract the real data from it -- in order to produce a protein ... someone had to design this decoding table, then encode the information and to store it in DNA, and then, to design the whole transcription/decoding process ... All claims that DNA isn't a literal code are beyond absurd ... it is a literal code and doesn't matter what biologists, paleontologists, archeologists, and all the other "-logists" think or claim ... they should finally shut up, because the damage is already done ... martin_r
KF @
How do you get to encapsulation with smart gating, no answer. How do you get to the cellular, metabolic process flow network, no answer. How do you record all this and create an integrated von Neumann kinematic self replicator — update to Paley’s time keeping, self replicating watch — no answer. How do you get to codes, strings, underlying language, no answer.
Allow me to add the question: how is the body plan encoded in DNA? Once I asked professor Larry Moran:
Ori: If most of our genome is junk, then where is the information stored for the (adult) body plan? Where is the information stored for e.g. the brain? And where is the information stored for how to build all this?
Larry Moran’s "answer":
(…) experts do not see a need to encode body plans and brain in our genome (…)
Let that sink in. Origenes
AF/12 Thanks....... chuckdarwin
AF/KM/FH, I am pretty sure you full well understand the outline of a living cell but choose to mock to not have to address substance. That bluster and dodging is a bluff, duly called. How do you get to encapsulation with smart gating, no answer. How do you get to the cellular, metabolic process flow network, no answer. How do you record all this and create an integrated von Neumann kinematic self replicator -- update to Paley's time keeping, self replicating watch -- no answer. How do you get to codes, strings, underlying language, no answer. Venter et al show that design is capable of doing these things. KF kairosfocus
KF @20 It's horrific and incredibly stupid what's going on, and I hope that one day there will be an explanation for all of this. Origenes
Fox flees henhouse for weekend away before snow melts. Alan Fox
You are of course correct that complex self sustaining functional oeganisation of a smart gated envelope protected metabolising, self replicating entity using coded information in key processes needs to be explained adequately.
The above paragraph needs to be explained - or at least turned into meaningful English. Alan Fox
For you it’s all “just chemistry”
There's a lot I don't know, much more than professional biochemists, certainly. I'm learning stuff I never knew and stuff I forgot about where the knowledge has expanded in the ( more-than) half-century since I was a biochemistry undergraduate. I can assure you chemistry is a lot more than "just". Alan Fox
O, notice, AF/KM/FH cannot take up Tour substantially on the chemistry of a Darwin pond or the like, resorting instead to RNA world just so stories. You are of course correct that complex self sustaining functional oeganisation of a smart gated envelope protected metabolising, self replicating entity using coded information in key processes needs to be explained adequately. But it is now clear that we are dealing with zero concessions denialism and a subtext of closed minded contempt driven ideological polarisation in service to agendas that by virtue of such resorts cannot stand on their merits, not a serious engagement of substance. KF kairosfocus
Alan Fox @17 This time I wasn't talking about evolution, Alan. In #16, I was expressing my awe for homeostasis. How, within one yeast cell, is it possible that 10^79,000,000,000 protein-protein interactome combinations are orchestrated such that homeostasis is maintained? For you it's all "just chemistry", but there are people, like me, who see things differently. Origenes
AF/KM/FH, mockery does not answer to substance. Again, what is a s-t-r-i-n-g? With each element in a DNA/mRNA chain taking up one of four possible values, with prong height differences creating a readable pattern, we have the molecular base for coded information storage using this molecular technology. This has been extended to the point where some have stored 16 GB worth of Wikipedia, in exploring DNA as an archival technology. Where, too, as Turing showed 90 years ago, strings as storage elements are at the core of digital computation. From the 1950s on, the genetic code that uses this capability was elucidated, as was its use in AA chaining algorithms used in protein synthesis. This has been widely noted on and is the consensus, summarised in landmark textbooks such as Lehninger and heirs, and of course with approval of the editors of Nature -- the most prestigious scientific journal -- by Nobel Laureate Sydney Brenner as cited. This, you have rhetorically side stepped, utterly and now irretrievably discrediting yourself, not even a final opportunity to reconsider could move you. Meanwhile you wish to spin tales on the fantasy RNA world. Sad, but all too tellingly real. KF PS, further rhetoric to sidestep combinatorial challenge has much the same defects, nor is it remotely capable of making the issues go away. kairosfocus
Good grief, Origenes, the old one in a gadzillion routine. Evolution is not a search. You don't know how many untested (theoretical) protein sequences have function and you don't need an exhaustive search to find one. And you don't need to find the useful sequence all at once. You can stumble on something that works and tune it - promiscuity to specificity. Alan Fox
Querius @3
Now, Dr. Tour points out that the estimated number of elemental particles in the universe is 10^90, which most people would agree is monumentally large. However, the number 10^79,000,000,000 is the estimated number of protein-protein interactome combinations within one yeast cell.
So many opportunities for things to go wrong, but somehow they usually don't, somehow homeostasis is maintained. Origenes
Another question regarding, randomness, promiscuity, and specificity. What if the cellular metabolism we see now evolved from a less complex system? Say at first there was just one amino-acid. Let's pick the simplest: glycine. What is the simplest way to string glycine units together to form polyglycine? What use is polyglycine in a metabolic system? Alan Fox
Q, Tour is as usual deeply informed, informative, entertaining, thought provoking. KF
Then maybe Professor Tour can answer the question I posed to KF and UB. There are six codons that result in leucine being incorporated into a polypeptide sequence yet only one aminoacyl tRNA synthetase that charges all six tRNAs with leucine. What’s the ID explanation? Anyone can answer. In fact delete "ID" from the question, otherwise it's unanswerable. Alan Fox
A question for KF and UB. There are six codons that result in leucine being incorporated into a polypeptide sequence yet only one aminoacyl tRNA synthetase that charges all six tRNAs with leucine. What's the ID explanation? Alan Fox
Who are these objectors? Where is this “penumbra” of attack sites exactly? What does that even mean?
I think KF is referring to After the Bar Closes, originally a thread at The Panda's Thumb that span off into a forum for poking fun at discussions here and for recording the various bans and disappearances of ID critics that used to happen here on a regular basis. Things are a lot quieter these days now ID has virtually disappeared from mainstream radar. Alan Fox
Notice paragraphs,too, KF. Alan Fox
I see here, what UB has been facing.
UB's "semiotic hypothesis" fails because there were no codons needed in RNA World. The reason "ID" proponents are ignored because all "ID" arguments boil down to arguments from personal incredulity. The scientific mainstream has no need of "ID" hypotheses. There is also the issue there are no "ID" scientifically testable hypotheses to be had. Just telling the scientific community their ideas are wrong is not enough. Please take note, KF and UB. Alan Fox
F/N: strings are of course foundational in computing as the Turing machine tape illustrates. And a s-t-r-i-n-g is readily recognisable. KF kairosfocus
Q, Tour is as usual deeply informed, informative, entertaining, thought provoking. KF kairosfocus
Q, I find it interesting that the number of atoms is usually given as about 10^80. Then, while text is linear, at least in languages such as English, the existence of description languages such as AutoCAD's embedded format, means that alphanumeric text can and does describe 3 d entities. But that points to the core: language, with implicit or explicit rules for representing and communicating information that expresses adequate description. And yes, chains of elements in strings give exponential growth to possibilities, for n elements in a 4 state per element system, 4 * 4 * . . . 4 n times, i.e. 4^n. The configuration space for 250 4-state elements is, for example, 3.27*10^150, unsurprising as 4 is the square of 4. Of that space, only a small fraction will be neaningful, coherent and accurate in describing or specifying a relevant state of affairs for configuration based, complex functional entities. That's where blind search challenge comes from, yet another manifest issue that is stridently objected to. KF kairosfocus
CD, scroll down to 4 to see an example. As we all know, UD faces a circle of attack sites that have been around for years. KF kairosfocus
KM/FH/AF, dismissive, insubstantial rhetoric; I see here, what UB has been facing. Where of course, there is considerable fresh information on the table that you overlooked, starting with explanation of what a string is, going on eventually to cases where DNA strings are being used as general digital storage elements, including all 16 GB of Wikipedia being so stored. Meanwhile, your quarrel is not with me or some other arbitrary design thinker, but with the consensus of relevant fields and experts on the subject -- I thought your party was that of science? And some of those experts were cited above, including one certain Sydney Brenner in Nature, in 2012. Nor, do I assume a verbal tense, I am looking at substance, at nouns that describe entities and states of affairs, at definitions, at elucidated facts of the matter: linear chains of four possible state elements used to effect stepwise creation of AA chains for proteins, where Insulin is given as a real world example. Similarly the relevant actions involved include transcription of DNA, post transcription editing to mature mRNA, translation as AA chains are created step by step in the ribosome, involving start, elongate, stop (after a finite set of steps). That is a case of an algorithm and it is a case of code in action. Code in the cell (a generally acknowledged phenomenon) requires an adequate causal explanation. Yours is: ______? KF PS, Do you have a substantial disagreement with the reviewers and editors of Nature, in publishing Brenner's article? Kindly note this vest pocket bio:
[Wiki confesses:] Sydney Brenner CH FRS FMedSci MAE (13 January 1927 – 5 April 2019)[15][16] was a South African biologist. In 2002, he shared the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine with H. Robert Horvitz and Sir John E. Sulston.[1] Brenner made significant contributions to work on the genetic code, and other areas of molecular biology while working in the Medical Research Council (MRC) Laboratory of Molecular Biology in Cambridge, England. He established the roundworm Caenorhabditis elegans as a model organism for the investigation of developmental biology,[2][17] and founded the Molecular Sciences Institute in Berkeley, California, United States.
PPS, Definition of code, AmHD:
code (k?d) n. 1. a. A system of signals used to represent letters or numbers in transmitting messages. b. A system of symbols, letters, or words given certain arbitrary meanings, used for transmitting messages requiring secrecy or brevity. c. An access code. d. A special command, such as a sequence of keystrokes, that allows a user to activate a hidden or accidental feature in a computer program or video game. 2. a. The information that constitutes a specific computer program. b. A system of symbols and rules that serve as instructions for a computer. 3. Genetics The genetic code.
kairosfocus
Rearranging your word salad and lame graphics doesn’t make your arguments any more compelling. You hear the word “code” and assume the verb tense of the word. Not the way in which Crick and all other scientists use it. Yes, DNA sequences align amino acids in a way that functional proteins are made. But that does not mean that they were “programmed” to do this. You see what you want to see, not what is actually there to be seen. Confirmation bias, thy name is [SNIP, a simple security request often trollishly ignored]. Ken Middlebrook
Kairosfocus @OP and 1, I wouldn’t be worried if Chuck Darwin got hopelessly lost on your post. He’s going to be even more confused after my comment. After watching Dr. James Tour’s most recent video: Origin of Life: Controversial Chemist Shakes up Scientific Community | Problems with Primordial Soup https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZugOrSD7YL4 some thoughts occurred to me regarding the nature of the linear strings of code in DNA and RNA. 1. First off, linear code is only one dimensional while biochemistry involves interactions between 3D organic compounds. This means that the linear code has no direct correlation with utility, but represents the manufacture and repair of cellular components and biochemical cycles. 2. Second, non-trivial code is organized in modules that are designed to optimize maintenance and variation. These modules can be more easily modified and recombined. 3. Next, Dr. Tour points out the combinatorial richness within a single yeast cell. To do this, consider the numbers 90 and 79,000,000,000. While 90 is respectfully large, even Chuckdarwin might be forced to concede that 79,000,000,000 is somewhat larger. Now, Dr. Tour points out that the estimated number of elemental particles in the universe is 10^90, which most people would agree is monumentally large. However, the number 10^79,000,000,000 is the estimated number of protein-protein interactome combinations within one yeast cell. 4. What this understanding highlights is the temporal inaccessibility of protein-protein interactome combinations from random changes to a linear code. Thus, it’s reasonable to conclude that organisms appear to be designed top down rather than bottom up. The code analogy would be that non-trivial functional code is a top-down design with a bottom-up implementation. -Q Querius
At this point, we need to ask, why is it that we have seen certain objectors from the penumbra of attack sites making strident, unyielding objections to understanding DNA and mRNA as string data structure information storage entities, part of a wider information processing, protein synthesis process in the cell?
Who are these objectors? Where is this “penumbra” of attack sites exactly? What does that even mean? chuckdarwin
L&FP, 66: String — yes, s-t-r-i-n-g — data structures as key information storage arrays (thus the significance of DNA and mRNA) kairosfocus

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