Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP, 66: String — yes, s-t-r-i-n-g — data structures as key information storage arrays (thus the significance of DNA and mRNA)

Categories
Academic Freedom
Agitprop
DNA
Intelligent Design
Logic and Reason
specified complexity
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

One of the more peculiar objections to the design inference is the strident, often repeated claim that the genetic code is not a code, and that DNA and mRNA are not storing algorithmic, coded information used in protein synthesis. These are tied to the string (yes, s-t-r-i-n-g) data structure, a key foundational array for information storage, transfer and application. So, it seems useful to address the string as a key first principles issue, with the onward point being that strings of course can and do store coded information.

Let us begin with, what a string — yes, s-t-r-i-n-g — is (though that should already be obvious from even the headline):

Wikipedia illustrates a string data structure

Geeks for Geeks: A string is a sequence of characters, often used to represent text. In programming, strings are a common data type and are used for a variety of tasks, such as representing names, addresses, and other types of information.

Wikipedia confesses: In computer programming, a string is traditionally a sequence of characters, either as a literal constant or as some kind of variable. The latter may allow its elements to be mutated and the length changed, or it may be fixed (after creation). A string is generally considered as a data type and is often implemented as an array data structure of bytes (or words) that stores a sequence of elements, typically characters, using some character encoding. String may also denote more general arrays or other sequence (or list) data types and structures . . . . A primary purpose of strings is to store human-readable text, like words and sentences. Strings are used to communicate information from a computer program to the user of the program. A program may also accept string input from its user. Further, strings may store data expressed as characters yet not intended for human reading . . . . Example strings and their purposes . . . Alphabetical data, like “AGATGCCGT” representing nucleic acid sequences of DNA . . .

So, it should not be surprising to see that DNA and RNA can store strings of information-bearing elements:

Where, of course, the genetic code is expressed in such strings. The (standard) code, mRNA form is:

The Genetic code uses three-letter codons to specify the sequence of AA’s in proteins, specifying start/stop, and using six bits per AA

For very simple example, HT Khan Academy:

The basic algorithmic process for protein synthesis [HT Khan, fair use edu]

Of course, the above is the mRNA form, which would be transcribed and edited to cut out introns, and it leaves out onward complexities. For example, we can see how Insulin has two strands of AA’s interconnected through di-sulphide bonds, making up a 51 AA protein:

The 51 aa, double chain protein, human insulin (fair use edu)

The end-product insulin protein is put together from the preproinsulin produced stepwise in the ribosome, by way of a clever alignment that uses a third, “scaffolding,” chain C sequence:

Assembling Insulin (fair use)

Using the code one could in principle back-translate to mRNA, however, in the DNA there are intervening Introns between the Exons expressed in the ribosome, so the human genome sequence is:

The underlying DNA sequence in the human genome (fair use)

So, as usual, we see how sophisticated life is at molecular level. That said, we also see that as a key stage of protein synthesis, as ribosomes, mRNA and tRNA interact (with a complex cast of supporting molecules) AA chains are assembled with start, elongate, stop, executing a code driven algorithm. Where, AmHD defines:

[Algorithm:] A finite set of unambiguous instructions that, given some set of initial conditions, can be performed in a prescribed sequence to achieve a certain goal and that has a recognizable set of end conditions.

Illustrating:

Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)

That should be enough to show the unbiased mind that coded algorithms are in the cell, and that DNA and mRNA act as string data structures. However, there are those who have proved resistant to such commonplace summaries or to citations from the sort of panels of experts who write major textbooks in biochemistry. For record, notwithstanding, here are Lehninger and heirs:

A page capture from Lehninger and heirs, Principles of Biochemistry, (fair use)

Lehninger and heirs go on to say, pp. 194 – 5:

Augmented citation from Lehninger and heirs, on mRNA in protein synthesis (fair use)

We may also now observe a Nobel Prize Laureate, Sydney Brenner, in his article, Life’s code script . . . yes, it’s that obvious, published in 2012 in the leading Science Journal, Nature:

[Brenner:] ” . . . The most interesting connection with biology, in my view, is in Turing’s most important paper: ‘On computable numbers with an application to the Entscheidungsproblem’5, published in 1936, when Turing was just 24.

Computable numbers are defined as those whose decimals are calculable by finite means. [–> that is, effectively, by algorithms] Turing introduced what became known as the Turing machine to formalize the computation. The abstract machine is provided with a tape [–> with marks on it], which it scans one square at a time, and it can write, erase or omit symbols. The scanner may alter its mechanical state, and it can ‘remember’ previously read symbols. Essentially, the system is a set of instructions written on the tape, which describes the machine. Turing also defined a universal Turing machine, which can carry out any computation for which an instruction set can be written — this is the origin of the digital computer. [–> there is also, a more powerful oracle machine, capable of one step decisions]

Turing’s ideas were carried further in the 1940s by mathematician and engineer John von Neumann, who conceived of a ‘constructor’ machine capable of assembling another according to a description. A universal constructor with its own description would build a machine like itself. To complete the task, the universal constructor needs to copy its description and insert the copy into the offspring machine. Von Neumann noted that if the copying machine made errors, these ‘mutations’ would provide inheritable changes in the progeny.

Arguably the best examples of Turing’s and von Neumann’s machines are to be found in biology. Nowhere else are there such complicated systems, in which every organism contains an internal description of itself. The concept of the gene as a symbolic representation of the organism — a code script — is a fundamental feature of the living world and must form the kernel of biological theory. [–> note, again, author, context and publisher]

Turing died in 1954, one year after the discovery of the double-helical structure of DNA by James Watson and Francis Crick, but before biology’s subsequent revolution. Neither he nor von Neumann had any direct effect on molecular biology, but their work allows us to discipline our thoughts about machines, both natural and artificial.

Turing invented the stored-program computer, and von Neumann showed that the description is separate from the universal constructor. [–> that ‘description’ of course is encoded] This is not trivial. Physicist Erwin Schrödinger confused the program and the constructor in his 1944 book What is Life?, in which he saw chromosomes as “architect’s plan and builder’s craft in one”. This is wrong. The code script contains only a description of the executive function, not the function itself.

That’s why Yockey adapted Shannon’s architectural diagram for communication systems:

Yockey’s analysis of protein synthesis as a code-based communication process

So, we may freely understand that DNA and associated molecules such as mRNA express string data structures, store coded biological information, that such information as used in protein synthesis expresses algorithms, and that therefore we are dealing with computation and associated computer language in the course of protein synthesis.

We may quote a Wiki confession:

[Wiki confesses:] Since 2001, 40 non-natural amino acids have been added into proteins by creating a unique codon (recoding) and a corresponding transfer-RNA:aminoacyl – tRNA-synthetase pair to encode it with diverse physicochemical and biological properties in order to be used as a tool to exploring protein structure and function or to create novel or enhanced proteins.[22][23]

H. Murakami and M. Sisido extended some codons to have four and five bases. Steven A. Benner [–>another guy] constructed a functional 65th (in vivo) codon.[24]

In 2015 N. Budisa, D. Söll and co-workers reported the full substitution of all 20,899 tryptophan residues (UGG codons) with unnatural thienopyrrole-alanine in the genetic code of the bacterium Escherichia coli.[25]

In 2016 the first stable semisynthetic organism was created. It was a (single cell) bacterium with two synthetic bases (called X and Y). The bases survived cell division.[26][27]

In 2017, researchers in South Korea reported that they had engineered a mouse with an extended genetic code that can produce proteins with unnatural amino acids.[28]

In May 2019, researchers reported the creation of a new “Syn61” strain of the bacterium Escherichia coli. This strain has a fully synthetic genome that is refactored (all overlaps expanded), recoded (removing the use of three out of 64 codons completely), and further modified to remove the now unnecessary tRNAs and release factors. It is fully viable and grows 1.6× slower than its wild-type counterpart “MDS42”

Indeed, the function of DNA as an information storage entity is so well established, that as Wiki also confesses, it has been adapted to general archival storage:

DNA digital data storage is the process of encoding and decoding binary data to and from synthesized strands of DNA.[1][2]

While DNA as a storage medium has enormous potential because of its high storage density, its practical use is currently severely limited because of its high cost and very slow read and write times.[3]

In June 2019, scientists reported that all 16 GB of text from Wikipedia’s English-language version had been encoded into synthetic DNA.[4] In 2021, scientists reported that a custom DNA data writer had been developed that was capable of writing data into DNA at 18 Mbps.[5]
Encoding methods

Countless methods for encoding data in DNA are possible. The optimal methods are those that make economical use of DNA and protect against errors.[6] If the message DNA is intended to be stored for a long period of time, for example, 1,000 years [–> a lot longer than most of our digital storage media will likely last], it is also helpful if the sequence is obviously artificial and the reading frame is easy to identify.[6]

CNet gives details:

the next storage technology might use an approach as old as life on earth: DNA. Startup Catalog announced Friday it’s crammed all of the text of Wikipedia’s English-language version onto the same genetic molecules our own bodies use.

It accomplished the feat with its first DNA writer, a machine that would fit easily in your house if you first got rid of your refrigerator, oven and some counter space. And although it’s not likely to push aside your phone’s flash memory chips anytime soon, the company believes it’s useful already to some customers who need to archive data.

DNA strands are tiny and tricky to manage, but the biological molecules can store other data than the genes that govern how a cell becomes a pea plant or chimpanzee. Catalog uses prefabricated synthetic DNA strands that are shorter than human DNA, but uses a lot more of them so it can store much more data.

Relying on DNA instead of the latest high-tech miniaturization might sound like a step backward. But DNA is compact, chemically stable — and given that it’s the foundation of the Earth’s biology, it’s arguably not as likely to become as obsolete as the spinning magnetized platters of hard drives or CDs that are disappearing today . . .

In short, they used a different encoding and have stored Wikipedia in DNA.

At this point, we need to ask, why is it that we have seen certain objectors from the penumbra of attack sites making strident, unyielding objections to understanding DNA and mRNA as string data structure information storage entities, part of a wider information processing, protein synthesis process in the cell?

The manifest answer is simple and sad: because such things point to design, which is being ideologically locked out at all costs.

So, it is time to recognise a key first fact about DNA and mRNA and let the chips lie where they fly. END

Comments
… that will not change the point that the relevant information, knowledge, design decisions, system architecture etc would have been in the intelligence of the designer before it would be put on the ground.
So, the designer is well adapted for the purpose of designing bacterium. You cannot change it significantly without a corresponding significant reduction in its ability to design bacterium. It has the appearance of design.
A designer with intelligence and knowledge to write the code for thousands of proteins required for a bacterium, and to set up a self replicating architecture, is obviously quite capable.
So, it's well adapted for the purpose of designing bacterium.critical rationalist
March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
06:19 AM
6
06
19
AM
PDT
Origenes, reduction of rational, intuitive, imaginative and creative thought to computation on a substrate fails. Not least, as computation is inherently non rational, it is an action of dynamic-stochastic process limited by GIGO, where errors of architecture and of programming or patching will be blindly carried forward. Witness, the Pentium bug and others. KF PS, Wikipedia has been shown the thumb screws again:
Consciousness, at its simplest, is sentience and awareness of internal and external existence.[1] However, its nature has led to millennia of analyses, explanations and debates by philosophers, theologians, linguists, and scientists. Opinions differ about what exactly needs to be studied or even considered consciousness. In some explanations, it is synonymous with the mind, and at other times, an aspect of mind. In the past, it was one's "inner life", the world of introspection, of private thought, imagination and volition.[2] Today, it often includes any kind of cognition, experience, feeling or perception. It may be awareness, awareness of awareness, or self-awareness either continuously changing or not.[3][4] The disparate range of research, notions and speculations raises a curiosity about whether the right questions are being asked.[5] Examples of the range of descriptions, definitions or explanations are: simple wakefulness, one's sense of selfhood or soul explored by "looking within"; being a metaphorical "stream" of contents, or being a mental state, mental event or mental process of the brain . . . . Western philosophers since the time of Descartes and Locke have struggled to comprehend the nature of consciousness and how it fits into a larger picture of the world. These questions remain central to both continental and analytic philosophy, in phenomenology and the philosophy of mind, respectively. Consciousness has also become a significant topic of interdisciplinary research in cognitive science, involving fields such as psychology, linguistics, anthropology,[6] neuropsychology and neuroscience. The primary focus is on understanding what it means biologically and psychologically for information to be present in consciousness—that is, on determining the neural and psychological correlates of consciousness. In medicine, consciousness is assessed by observing a patient's arousal and responsiveness, and can be seen as a continuum of states ranging from full alertness and comprehension, through disorientation, delirium, loss of meaningful communication, and finally loss of movement in response to painful stimuli.[7] Issues of practical concern include how the presence of consciousness can be assessed in severely ill, comatose, or anesthetized people, and how to treat conditions in which consciousness is impaired or disrupted.[8] The degree of consciousness is measured by standardized behavior observation scales such as the Glasgow Coma Scale.
We can start from there but that is an onward, separate matter. The point for this thread is, that we can observe in the cell symbolic, coded, algorithmic information, strong signs of design.kairosfocus
March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
06:16 AM
6
06
16
AM
PDT
CR, why not do an in page search for say, "in the intelligence"? You will find for example 302:
As for designing a bacterium, I suggest, start with Venter et al and go on from there to more advanced technology, that will not change the point that the relevant information, knowledge, design decisions, system architecture etc would have been in the intelligence of the designer before it would be put on the ground. Which is actually pretty much basic common sense.
This, you cited in 347, so you should have noted the force of the point long since. And more, but that is enough to make the point. A designer with intelligence and knowledge to write the code for thousands of proteins required for a bacterium, and to set up a self replicating architecture, is obviously quite capable. The notion that such wrote itself incrementally by trial and error and differential reproductive success, does not even pass the giggle test, once one recognises how complex a challenge is involved. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
06:02 AM
6
06
02
AM
PDT
KF @416
… the underlying incoherence is dismissiveness to the observed and/or experienced. Once self evident first truths are denied, chaos is let loose. KF
Consciousness, the free rational person, the intelligent designer, cannot be explained by mindless physical stuff. If we are not self-moved, if blind particles in the void are behind the steering wheel of rationality, then nothing makes sense. As you wrote:
Designers are intelligent, self moved agents able to carry out purposeful contrivance or configuration, the ART-ifacts so created are different in kind, not degree. KF
Truth. CR’s insistence that the designer of the watch must itself be designed by some A, which, in turn, no doubt, must be designed by a B, and so on, only stops when we arrive at matter. Only when we arrive at physical stuff CR will stop asking for an explanation. So, his unsupported (and self-defeating) assumption that everything is physical is what is driving his ‘rational’ inquiry. - - - edit #419 ! Hear! Hear!Origenes
March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
05:53 AM
5
05
53
AM
PDT
CR, the FIRST -- branch on which we all sit [so of first principle character] -- fact of experience is self awareness, a key aspect of consciousness. There is no need to play hyperskeptical games with it, it is undeniable and self evidently real. It is through self awareness that we experience other things and reflect on them. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
05:52 AM
5
05
52
AM
PDT
@KF
Drumbeat repetition of an answered assertion, pretending that it was not answered repeatedly.
Ok, then which comment(s)? Please quote from them, etc.critical rationalist
March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
05:41 AM
5
05
41
AM
PDT
If consciousness is fundamental and cannot be explained by something else, then this is where we must base our explanations of things on.
That's great, assuming we actually knew this to be true. But this reflects arbitrarily deciding when to stop looking for explanations. Even if there were a finite number of explanations, we might not even be close to reaching the end. So, why should we stop looking there, instead of somewhere else? We don't know is a perfectly good response. Not to mention, that the idea that consciousness is fundamental depends on things like specific interpretations of quantum theory. Other interpretations, make the same predictions, yet do not suggest consciousness is fundamental. Both of those interpretations make the very same predictions. They do not compete with quantum theory. Why stop there, in particular, instead of somewhere else? What ever reason could you have?
If consciousness is a fundamental entity as a brute fact, then reality is what it is. Deal with it, because reality does not comply with your epistemological preferences.
My epistemological preference for explanations doesn't make that brute fact any less of an a non-explanation, which would push the problem up a level without improving, it from an explanatory perspective. For example, saying quantum theory is fundamental doesn't exclude there being more fundamental theories that underlie it, etc. What you mean by fundamental is to effectively decide to abandon explanations. Let's not pretend they are the same thing. That preference, by the way, is baed on an explanation for the relatively recent growth of knowledge. Good explanations are what make the crucial difference. It's unclear how "an inexplicable mind that exists in an inexplicable realm, that operates via inexplicable means and methods, driven by inexplicable motivations" reflects a good explanation. Also, I'm still waiting for where this assumption is spelled out in the supposedly scientific theory of ID. But again, you've ignored my second question, which accepts this for the purpose of argument.
Even if we were to to accept this, merely for the purpose of argument, I asked about swapping the designer that supposedly designed bacterium with some other designer – whom’s conscious experience would also supposedly “couldn’t be reduced non-conscious events”, or whatever you want to propose about designers, etc.
Assuming this brute facts being equal among them, we still cannot just swap out a current human designer for ID's designer and still get bacterium. Right? Why not? After all, there are crucial differences been a watch and a rock, right? And there are crucial difference between strings as KF has indicated. After all, human beings are conscious, and according to you, consciousness is fundamental. So, why can't we currently be swapped out with ID's designer and get bacterium? What is it that makes the the crucial difference in designers?critical rationalist
March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
05:39 AM
5
05
39
AM
PDT
Origenes, the underlying incoherence is dismissiveness to the observed and/or experienced. Once self evident first truths are denied, chaos is let loose. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
05:06 AM
5
05
06
AM
PDT
I wrote…
If the recipe for a bacterium is one of these entities that exhibit reliable signs of design, and a designer put that recipe into bacterium when it designed them, then where was that recipe before it ended up in bacterium? Where was it instantiated, at the outset?
Apparently, no one here wants to touch this question with a 10 foot pole. Not even a response to indicate why it’s not relevant to taking ID seriously. Would that not be a consequence of ID being true, given that a bacterium are von-Neumann replicators? If not, why? What gives? [ANS: Drumbeat repetition of an answered assertion, pretending that it was not answered repeatedly. As soon as it was raised, it was answered on the obvious, readily observed and experienced facts. A design is in the intelligence of the designer before it is put on the ground, just ask a patent or copyright office -- that is how intellectual property is created. Glorified common sense. I am forced to take a drastic step, answering by adding an edit to your objection, in hope that at last you will pay heed and will refrain from such stunts in future. KF, thread owner.]critical rationalist
March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
04:56 AM
4
04
56
AM
PDT
CR, do you understand what you clipped? Notice, ". . . A class of machine we have analysed since 1948, buthave yet to actually create, much less, using molecular nanotech at micron scale," which is miles different from your suggestion that I said we cannot create a vNSR. Perhaps, you were not noticing when I suggested many times over years that we likely will create de novo life within this century. As for self referentiality, almost any key question is self referential, but that does not make such question begging or incoherent. Apparently you are immune to empirical evidence, where we OBSERVE designers, many human, others like beavers and dams adapted to circumstances. I stand by the observable distinction between CR and his objections, Mitchell et al and the Spitfire, Pyramid builders and pyramids, Euclid and his Elements. Designers are intelligent, self moved agents able to carry out purposeful contrivance or configuration, the ART-ifacts so created are different in kind, not degree. Intelligence generally refers to "the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly" [Webster's]. We are contingent beings so cannot exhaust the category, and there are serious candidate necessary beings capable of design. As for pretences about FSCO/I, the 500 - 1,000 bit threshold has to do with configuration spaces too big for sol system or observed cosmos resources to more than negligibly sample. We could go on and on and on, tangent after tangent, obfuscation after obfuscation, but it would predictably be of no avail, this is enough to show why. Meanwhile, the force of the point in the OP stands: there is code, there are algorithms, so, too, linguistic phenomena, in the cell. You would be well advised to change your epistemological approach. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
04:45 AM
4
04
45
AM
PDT
CR @405
First, if conciseness cannot be explained, then it’s unclear how this reflects any more of an explanation for the knowledge in living things.
If consciousness is fundamental and cannot be explained by something else, then this is where we must base our explanations of things on. As I said before, it cannot be the case that everything has a more fundamental explanation. Turtles (fundamental explanations) all the way down is incoherent.
You have an inexplicable mind that exists in an inexplicable realm, that operates via inexplicable means and methods and is driven by inexplicable motivations. It’s unclear how appealing to it actually adds to the explanation.
If consciousness is a fundamental entity as a brute fact, then reality is what it is. Deal with it, because reality does not comply with your epistemological preferences. The good news is that you are also conscious, so you may very well come to know it intimately.Origenes
March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
04:40 AM
4
04
40
AM
PDT
AF, sadly predictable. I suggest that the serious minded onlooker consults the likes of Habermas on that topic, probably the first written record of the church's official summary, which names or identifies some 20 of the 500 and (this being a decade before Nero's persecution) invites people to speak with the then living majority. As for "ambiguous," that is laughably off base. But then, AF, you are the objector who set out to assert away the Nobel Prize winning, evidence based scientific consensus that there is coded algorithmic information in DNA. That alone suffices to establish your negative credibility driven by ideology. Tangent fails. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
04:27 AM
4
04
27
AM
PDT
CR, you keep twisting things and trying more tangents.
First, my core criticism has been consistent. Nor does it reflect tangents. Clarifications are not new and pointing out how ID would reflect a contradiction is not “twisting things.”
Nowhere have I said we cannot design a vNSR, just we have not yet done so
Now who’s twisting things? You wrote…
JVL, self replicating, von Neumann, kinematic self replicator context. A class of machine we have analysed since 1948, but have yet to actually create, much less, using molecular nanotech at micron scale. KF
I clarified this when I wrote…
IOW, Currently, human designers could not be swapped with the supposed designer of bacterium. We have yet to create the necessary knowledge. (It’s a question of knowledge, not desire.) So, if we were put in ID’s designer’s place, the result would be, well, the lack of bacterium. Right? So, no, not just any designer would do. We are not well adapted for the purpose of designing bacterium, while ID’s designer supposedly is.
So, this objection has already been addressed. Again, If you replace id’s designer of bacterium with a human being, today, will you get a bacterium? If you can replace one string with another, without reducing its ability to serve a purpose, then that string is not well adapted to serve that purpose. It’s like using a rock to tell time. You can replace it with some other rock, or even a non-rock, like a stick, tree, etc. They also serve the purpose of telling time just as well. The knowledge of how to use a rock as a sun dial is in us, not the rock. This is unlike a watch, which is well adapted to serve a purpose. Right? IOW, do you have some criticism of this? You have not address this beyond saying it’s vague, without elaborating on how and why. You wrote….
As for the difference between a designer and a watch, it is much the same as that between said designer and the objecting text he composes.
Great, but again, how is that relevant to Paley’s criteria for the appearance of design? How does that difference exclude it from being applicable to IDs designer as well?
There are things you cannot not know, like that and playing rhetorical games like that will simply confirm you as lacking in seriousness.
Apparently, I cannot know it does or does not apply to designers? It’s unclear how this does not reflect special pleading.
Go get a dictionary and look up key words. Even something as humble as Wikipedia would help if you genuinely do not know what intelligence is or designers are and the substantial difference between a designer and the result of her design. Go try that stunt at the Patents Office and see how far it gets you, or a plagiarism review panel.
See above. Again, the question is relevance, not if there is a difference. Now who’s not being serious? if you think ID’s designer is God, then you might think Paley’s criteria would not apply. But, that’s creationism, not ID. Right? And, even then, it’s unclear how God works in any meaningful sense of the word,. God is some inexplicable mind in some inexplicable realm, etc. How does that add to the explanation of that knowledge?
As for nonsense strawman redefinitions of ID, they are running away from the focal issue, observable, reliable signs of design manifested by entities.
See above. I’m still waiting for that Venn diagram that shows how being well adapted to serve a purpose does not overlap some yet to be provided example from ID, such as the algorithms and information you referenced in this post. Again,, I’m merely trying to take the claims of ID seriously, as if it’s true in reality and that all observations should conform to it. Am I not supposed to take ID seriously? If the recipe for a bacterium is one of these entities that exhibit reliable signs of design, and a designer put that recipe into bacterium when it designed them, then where was that recipe before it ended up in bacterium? Where was it instantiated, at the outset? If it just appeared spontaneously when the first bacterium appeared, wouldn’t that be the spontaneous appearance of that recipe? At which point, in what way does it make sense to say ID’s designer designed bacterium? Again, if you think ID’s designer is God, then God would have been the origin of that knowledge. But, now you’ve hopped the fence and are clearly in creationist territory again. IOW, all these objections to applying Paley’s criteria to ID’s designer seem to implicitly concede that ID’s designer is actually God, not, say, aliens. Or they make a bunch of assumptions about designers, such as intelligent agents can be completely immaterial beings, observers cause collapse in quantum mechanics, etc. But ID is supposedly agnostic about designers. To rule out designers being subject to Paley’s criteria, you’d have to at least expand ID to include what ID’s designer is not, such as not being subject to Paley’s criteria. Of course, making this explicit would be problematic at multiple levels. It would codify the very problem I’m referring to. If we assume the distant past will resemble the past, the we could ”induce” that ID’s designer would be like us, as we are the only designers we’ve observed. And we exhibit the appearance of design. This is why we cannot actually use induction. No one has formulated a principle of induction that actually can provide guidance, in practice. You’ve merely arbitrarily “induced” one part the past that the distant past would resemble, while not “inducing” the others.critical rationalist
March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
04:25 AM
4
04
25
AM
PDT
...the 500 witnesses to Jesus’ resurrection.
One isolated claim, ambiguously worded, that refers to a round number of unnamed people? And what has this to do with "Intelligent Design"? I thought ID was a scientific approach that will one day supplant evolution as an explanation for common descent etc.Alan Fox
March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
02:03 AM
2
02
03
AM
PDT
...the 500 witnesses to Jesus’ resurrection.
One isolated claim, ambiguously worded, that refers to a round number of unnamed people? And what has this to do with "Intelligent Design"? I thought ID was a scientific approach that will one day supplant evolution as an explanation for common descent etc.Alan Fox
March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
02:03 AM
2
02
03
AM
PDT
...the 500 witnesses to Jesus’ resurrection.
One isolated claim, ambiguously worded, that refers to a round number of unnamed people? And what has this to do with "Intelligent Design"? I thought ID was a scientific approach that will one day supplant evolution as an explanation for common descent etc.Alan Fox
March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
02:03 AM
2
02
03
AM
PDT
...the 500 witnesses to Jesus’ resurrection.
One isolated claim, ambiguously worded, that refers to a round number of unnamed people? And what has this to do with "Intelligent Design"? I thought ID was a scientific approach that will one day supplant evolution as an expkanation for common descent etc.Alan Fox
March 25, 2023
March
03
Mar
25
25
2023
02:03 AM
2
02
03
AM
PDT
CR, you keep twisting things and trying more tangents. Nowhere have I said we cannot design a vNSR, just we have not yet done so. As for the difference between a designer and a watch, it is much the same as that between said designer and the objecting text he composes. There are things you cannot not know, like that and playing rhetorical games like that will simply confirm you as lacking in seriousness. Go get a dictionary and look up key words. Even something as humble as Wikipedia would help if you genuinely do not know what intelligence is or designers are and the substantial difference between a designer and the result of her design. Go try that stunt at the Patents Office and see how far it gets you, or a plagiarism review panel. As for nonsense strawman redefinitions of ID, they are running away from the focal issue, observable, reliable signs of design manifested by entities. And the tangents that keep pulling away from the focal concern in the OP keep coming. Backhanded evidence, that it is unanswerable. But, the zero concessions policy must continue, never mind how outlandishly. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2023
March
03
Mar
24
24
2023
09:39 PM
9
09
39
PM
PDT
What I actually wrote was....
So, perhaps you can explain exactly what way the designer and watch are in different categories and how that’s actually relevant to Paley’s definition of the appearance of design?
Was there some particular reason why you didn't quote the entire sentence? The text box scrolls to make more room, it's just a few characters more and it would even be harder to just select part of the sentence. Specially, you can simply triple click anywhere in the sentence to select the whole thing. This is in contrast to single clicking, then dragging the cursor to select just that specific part of the entire sentence at the level of individual characters , etc. This seems like a rather specific omission. What gives? You replied....
I would say that it is obvious that they are. However, it is clearly not obvious to you. WRT the fundamental nature of consciousness, perhaps this article by Bill Vallicella is relevant. Here he explains that consciousness cannot be explained in non-conscious events without “explaining it away” which, as he argues, is not an explanation.
Ahh.. it makes sense now. You didn't actually explain why that supposed difference is relevant in regards to Paley's criteria for the appearance of design. I guess that's supposedly obvious too? But, again, then why not just quote my entire sentence? Why is it absent? Speaking of absence, to clarify I asked a follow up question to clarify the issue.
Perhaps the better question would be, do ID proponents think its designer is not well adapted for the purpose of designing bacterium?
Should I respond by saying, "I would say that it is obvious there would be a difference. However, it is clearly not obvious to you"? But, I even took the time to clarify that with follow up questions, in case it, well, wasn't obvious? Yet, you completely ignored them to. What gives? Then you quoted an article by Bill Vallicella, which you seem to find relevant as to why watches and designers are different. (But, apparently not relevant in regards to Paley's criteria for the appearance of design, since you carefully omitted that part of my sentence?)
Here he explains that consciousness cannot be explained in non-conscious events without “explaining it away” which, as he argues, is not an explanation.
First, if conciseness cannot be explained, then it's unclear how this reflects any more of an explanation for the knowledge in living things. Negating a theory doesn't automatically result in a replacement theory that explains the same thing. In fact, it's worse. You have an inexplicable mind that exists in an inexplicable realm, that operates via inexplicable means and methods and is driven by inexplicable motivations. It's unclear how appealing to it actually adds to the explanation. It's almost as if you see being inexplicable as a feature instead of a bug. Second, you still haven't pointed out where this is actually part of ID, the supposedly scientific theory. At best, there is talk about designers, but the theory is careful to present them as utterly and completely abstract and to exclude defining anything that could be construed to be a limitation. IOW designers reflect a essentialist position. Designers design things by nature of being an intelligent agency. Which doesn't refer to how designers work, or the lack there of. After all, specifying too much detail about how the designer works could be problematic. It must leave a hole big enough to drive through their preferred designer. From Pandas and People...
"Intelligent design means that various forms of life began abruptly through an intelligent agency, with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, wings, etc."
Absent is anything about the "intelligent agency" being immaterial, design being fundamental, consciousness causing collapse in quantum mechanics, etc. But that's about 15 years old. Again, by all means, feel free to reference an update version of the supposedly scientific theory ID that does? Third, I anticipated this sort of response. My second question, along with all the ones that followed (the you know, the ones you ignored) was directed at it. Even if we were to to accept this, merely for the purpose of argument, I asked about swapping the designer that supposedly designed bacterium with some other designer - whom's conscious experience would also supposedly "couldn't be reduced non-conscious events", or whatever you want to propose about designers, etc.
For example, could the supposed designer of bacterium be replaced with a designer that lacked the ability, knowledge and eventual design of bacterium, at the outset? Or, to rephrase, would replacing the designer make no difference in the outcome, or would it necessarily result in the lack of bacterium? If the latter, it seems the designer of bacterium would be well adapted to the purpose of designing bacterium. If modified in the way above, it wouldn’t serve that purpose nearly as well. Right? In the case of the former, if it can be arbitrarily replaced with some other designer, it’s unclear in what sense the designer actually played the role of design bacterium? Apparently any old designer would do?
Strangely, or completely predictably, this question went utterly unanswered. Why might that be the case? So which is it? The former or the latter? And, as KF keeps reminding us, we cannot design von-neumann replicators. So swapping the supposed designer of bacterium with a human designer will result in the lack of a bacterium. This is despite our consciousness also supposedly "not being reducible to non-conscious events." Apparently we're not well adapted for the purpose of designing bacterium, while ID's designer apparently is? Otherwise, how do explain the outcome? So, again, how is this relevant to Paley's criteria for the appearance of design?critical rationalist
March 24, 2023
March
03
Mar
24
24
2023
08:45 PM
8
08
45
PM
PDT
Critical Rationalists is playing games with people and they are falling for it. He is not serious. He makes up nonsense and people foolishly answer the nonsense as if it were serious. It is a game played by all the anti ID people here. And they easily get what they are after in return. They are not serious in any of the questions they are asking.jerry
March 24, 2023
March
03
Mar
24
24
2023
06:31 PM
6
06
31
PM
PDT
CR, again, you are refusing to recognise the empirical base of designed objects and manifest, observable, reliable signs of design. By simply recognising such, the matter becomes simple and the relevance of coded information in the cell becomes clear. I stand by what else I have noted, but by this time it is obvious that this is for record and the pattern of arguments you have used become an example for those wanting to know how the plain and simple can be obfuscated. KF PS, design is intelligently directed configuration. We exemplify and typ[ify but do not exhaust possibilities for intelligence. As we are contingent creatures. Absent the ID debates, these would not even be controversial, but the zero concessions policy is manifest. And of course the coded information in the cell cries out to highest heavens. PPS, again and again, you have been told the obvious but have side stepped it to double down as if questions are unanswered. Before being put on paper or the ground, designs -- start with the text for your objecting comments -- are in the intelligence of the designer. Something readily recognised in say patent law which credits inventors. The zero concessions willful obtuseness involved in such doubling down is that obvious and that inexcusable.kairosfocus
March 24, 2023
March
03
Mar
24
24
2023
05:22 PM
5
05
22
PM
PDT
Kirk Durston on "intelligent design."
Intelligent design: an effect that required an intelligent mind to produce. Examples of intelligent design that satisfy the above definition include smartphones, genetically modified plants, a text message, Beethoven’s Fifth, a flint spear point, and CERN’s Large Hadron Collider. [Source]
Origenes
March 24, 2023
March
03
Mar
24
24
2023
05:09 PM
5
05
09
PM
PDT
Critical Rationalist @399,
What I do not understand is how a logical argument that the theory of ID is self-referential is both dismissed without any attempt a rebuttal, while the very self-referential claim is doubled down.
To gain understanding, YOU will, first of all, need to define ID and define creationism. Let's see how far you get. -QQuerius
March 24, 2023
March
03
Mar
24
24
2023
04:48 PM
4
04
48
PM
PDT
CR
CR: So, perhaps you can explain exactly what way the designer and watch are in different categories ….
I would say that it is obvious that they are. However, it is clearly not obvious to you. WRT the fundamental nature of consciousness, perhaps this article by Bill Vallicella is relevant. Here he explains that consciousness cannot be explained in non-conscious events without “explaining it away” which, as he argues, is not an explanation. Excerpt:
…. if one were to explain the conscious event in terms of unconscious events as Dennett recommends, the explanation would fail: (….) The upshot would be an elimination of the datum to be explained rather than an explanation of it. To reiterate the obvious, a successful explanation cannot consign the explanandum to oblivion. It must explain it, not explain it away. I conclude that consciousness cannot be explained, given Dennett's demand that a successful explanation of consciousness must be in terms of unconscious events. What he wants is a reduction to the physical. He wants that because he is convinced that only the physical exists. But in the case of consciousness, such a reduction must needs be an elimination.
Origenes
March 24, 2023
March
03
Mar
24
24
2023
04:47 PM
4
04
47
PM
PDT
@KF I was going to address your comment in detail, but in an effort not to distract you, I'll just simply repeat the questions that have remained unanswered. Incredulity does not addressed ID's attempt to explain being well adapted to serve a purpose with, well, being well adapted to serve a purpose, which is a contradiction. Again, do ID proponents think its designer is not well adapted for the purpose of designing bacterium? Could the supposed designer of bacterium be replaced with, say, a human being? What would be the outcome and why? It's unclear how any designer capable of designing a bacterium would not also "[transcend] the FSCO/I threshold" transcended by a bacterium. And, as you keep reminding us, we transcend this threshold, despite not being able to design bacterium. How could any such designer of bacterium not exceed that threshold by some significant margin? if not, then how did it mange to design bacterium? Also, as you pointed out, for information to exist, specific physical tasks must be possible. We can explain information in respect to which physical transformations must be possible, which must be impossible and why. This includes transformations necessarily to allow information to be copied, the principle of the interoperability of information, etc. So, again, where was this same knowledge instantiated before some designer put in into bacterium? Did that knowledge spontaneously appear out of thin air when the designer created the first bacterium? If not then how did that recipe get copied into the first bacterium? ID’s designer would itself be a complicated, knowledge-laden entity. IOW, no. I'm not side stepping the OP. The content of our ideas don't always end up getting used ways we intend. Apparently, you can't possibly imagine this happening? As for sidestepping, I've asked these questions multiple times, making clarification after clarification along the way. What I get in return is, at best, circular claims of exceeding FSCO/I and, at worst, incredulity, instead of answers. What gives? What I do not understand is how a logical argument that the theory of ID is self-referential is both dismissed without any attempt a rebuttal, while the very self-referential claim is doubled down. It's as if the entire FSCO/I threshold doesn't actually play a role in your conclusion. It just's trotted out when it suites your purpose. It's unclear how ID can actually play the role you claim it does.critical rationalist
March 24, 2023
March
03
Mar
24
24
2023
04:19 PM
4
04
19
PM
PDT
AF, first, on track record you refuse to entertain the force of testimony, good chain of custody record and other evidence that would transcend your antisupernaturalist ideological tendencies; including the empirically founded consensus that cells have coded algorithmic information, so we point to ideological question begging, dismissiveness and strawman caricatures of those you object to. Second, it is rather readily seen that empirical observation cannot establish universal necessity. So we can note that from the foundational era of modern science it was known that it is a highly reasonable view that the usual operation of the world sustained by the power of the Creator [hence, LAWS of nature] can be suspended or transcended for good cause. Transcended means, there is a higher law acting. As for actual miracles good and bad, I have personally experienced predictive, life shaping prophecies and healing. On the other side [evil], I have seen levitation of someone in a dead faint in clear transcending of basic gravity, as did many other witnesses; this has revised my estimation of many other reports. Going to a core case, Babbage in his 9th Bridgewater Thesis draws out how sufficient weight of witnesses can rapidly reduce likelihood of error of witnesses to negligible proportions, with particular reference to the 500 witnesses to Jesus' resurrection. But of course, if you find ways to deny and dismiss the empirically warranted conclusion that there is algorithmic code in the cell, you will predictably dismiss all other cases that do not suit your preferences. So, kindly reconsider your epistemological habits. KF PS, the fine tuning of Weasel programs shows latching with rare slips, readily. You were corrected on this, but of course the problem is not balance of evidence but your epistemological habits. And there is no need for yet another tangent. Until you correct the crooked yardstick thinking you have shown consistently, there is only correction for record. As is the case on coded information in the cell.kairosfocus
March 24, 2023
March
03
Mar
24
24
2023
04:01 PM
4
04
01
PM
PDT
Where, fundamental thermodynamics is not so much overthrown as transcended, at a price, as the entropy cost must be paid.
So, are the laws of this universe ever violated? Your equivocation reminds me of quazi-latching. :)Alan Fox
March 24, 2023
March
03
Mar
24
24
2023
03:33 PM
3
03
33
PM
PDT
Sainthood is based on evidence.
I suspect the word "evidence" means something different to Relatd than it does to Alan Fox.Alan Fox
March 24, 2023
March
03
Mar
24
24
2023
03:26 PM
3
03
26
PM
PDT
Critical Rationalist @369, In addition to what Kairosfocus explained to you, let me add my comments.
Specifically, God has supposedly always known everything that could possibly be known.
This is an example of the logical error of “binary superlatives” with respect to God. It leads to stupidities such as “Can God create a rock that He cannot lift?” If God can’t create such a rock, He’s not all powerful and if He can’t lift such a rock He’s not all powerful. Or better yet, can God make Himself to cease to exist? Same binary superlative logic.
And where did the information in the genome of organisms come from according to creationists? God, of course. Apparently, that knowledge always “just was”, along with God, at the outset. So, this denies that anything genuinely, fundamentally new was created.
Did God create everything in this universe that could possibly exist? (No) Or did God instantiate some possibilities into a designed subset? (Yes)
Creationism is effectively like last Thursday-ism. After all, if God created the universe last Thursday, he would have been the actual origin of general relativity, not Einstein.
Nonsense. God created space-time. Our human theories are very likely to be approximations of a reality that we ASSUME we have the IQ to understand.
And the theory would have always existed, along with God. Which denies that creation actually took place.
Nonsense. Could God create a universe in which Einstein’s Theory of Relativity would be false? (Sure. Why not?)
Creationism, in regards to living things, just pushes the boundary further in the distant past. It denies that the knowledge in living things was genuine created, just like last thursday-ism denies that scientists genuinely created any of their theories, before last Thursday.
No, because our space-time did not exist until God created it (including last Thursdayism). So, can you even begin imagine what it’s like for God to exist outside of time? He described himself to Moses as “I AM.” I have no idea. Maybe it might be analogous to a finite (or infinite) state machine.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. - Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV
Could it be true that God is a lot smarter and thinks entirely different than we do? Can your mind encompass the entirety of God? Of course I’m sure you could continue by arguing, “How did God breathe before He created air?” O.o -QQuerius
March 24, 2023
March
03
Mar
24
24
2023
02:56 PM
2
02
56
PM
PDT
CR, it is obvious that you are recirclulating and doubling down on long since answered objections. Indeed, the answer traces to Thaxton et al in TMLO, 1984. On your attempt to get a regress of designers, notice, we are designers and are contingent creatures. The recognition of our designs and the pattern of observable signs of design is utterly independent of our ontological status. Your regress is irrelevant to the inductively founded, empirically based inference to key causal explanation, designed. However, we also know that our cosmos is temporally bound in the past and exhibits fine tuning that fosters C Chem, aqueous medium, cell based life. These are signs of design that point onward to another class of designer. For, as we saw here at UD over a three year period, step by step, temporal-causal, thermodynamically constrained successive stages [time in a cosmologically relevant sense] cannot be past infinite, as such a stepwise traverse on logic of structure and quantity, cannot mount up to the implicitly or explicitly transfinite. So, even through speculative multiverses, there is a hard beginning at finite remove. As a world does not come from non being and circular retrocausation is another form of appeal to the causal power of non being, we can rule both out. However, there is a third class of being, readily seen from the futile exercise of trying to imagine a distinct possible world W that does not embed duality, twoness, the number 2. That is, there are necessary being entities, framework to any possible [thus, actual] world. So, once a world is, we may readily recognise that something causally adequate always was. A necessary being, here, one capable of causing the sort of fine tuned world we inhabit. So, recognising design from empirically warranted sign does not lead to the sort of regress you imagine. You have been corrected for record. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2023
March
03
Mar
24
24
2023
02:14 PM
2
02
14
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 16

Leave a Reply