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LPA

Life Project Architecture

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A point that Darwinists make is that anti-Darwinists have not developed any theory for the origins of species, and think that is a weakness. But for an IDer/creationist is not so difficult to have ideas about solutions of the problem of origins. I for one developed a proposal for a theory, and I will illustrate it here. I called it “LPA” (Life Project Architecture). See below its simple schema, where the x-axis is time and the y-axis the top-down intelligent causation:

LPA model for origins is cent percent design based. The role of natural selection, about the creation of biological information and complexity, is null. To grasp LPA one must entirely invert the reasoning of evolutionism. This means in the same time to assume a solid informatics engineering perspective and apply it to biology.

 

An axiom of Darwinism is the corporeal descent of all species from a simple unique corporeal common ancestor, by means of unintelligent processes. To pass to LPA this axiom has to be somehow inverted and becomes: abstract descent of all kinds from a unique complex abstract common archetype-kind, in the context of a global integrated project of life on Earth. While in Darwinism all the core stuff happens only at the corporeal level, in LPA it happens at the incorporeal level. The inversion of LPA compared to Darwinism not only substitutes non intelligent causes with intelligence but considers two layers upon the corporeal layer, the only one considered by materialist evolutionism. Darwinism is one-dimensional, LPA is three-dimensional.

 

This inversion of LPA vs. Darwinism (which in a sense is a restoration of truth) immediately removes the major absurdities and problems of evolutionism:

(1) Intelligence, able to create information and organization, substitutes chance and necessity, which are unable.

(2) The “less” comes from the “more” and not the opposite, as in evolutionism.

(3) The corporeal macroevolution, which is a real “engineering suicide”, is substituted with an abstract incorporeal derivation, done at a higher layer than the material one. The bodies have no more to materially and monstrously morph, with all the countless complications one can imagine.

(4) The Darwinian material common ancestor of minimal complexity becomes the immaterial template of the more complex being, from which all the simpler beings abstractly derive as sub-projects, when some major characteristics and architectural plans are changed.

(5) What is intelligent is created by intelligence. It is obvious that the unintelligent cannot produce the intelligent, as evolutionism pretends.

(6) The incapability of chance and necessity to create semiotic processing, sophisticated molecular machinery, CSI, correlated CSI, irreducible complexity, functional hierarchies, etc.

Who is the more complex living being that can pretend to be the “maximum project template” in LPA? Answer: man. Before this answer Darwinists object that man arose last in history, then cannot be first. In LPA man can well be the first in the order of design and last in the order of time. Conversely, bacteria, which are the simplest organisms, are last in the order of design and first in the time order. In fact, you can see in the middle of the schema, at the incorporeal layer, the possibility of a total scrambling between design order and time order. This is the flexibility that informatics shows so well. By the way, it is indeed the appearance over time from the simplest to the more complex species that caused the illusion of an evolution from simplicity to complexity, while instead it was simply a specific order of execution of a complexity already fully present from the beginning in the design incorporeal layer.

The LPA explains also all homologies, analogies and similarities between all living beings, at the genetic, morphological, functional and system levels, because LPA implements very strong “common design” “shared libraries” “high level integration” “software reuse” paradigms. In fact, in the schema, at the top level, you see the shared libraries (genotypic and phenotypic) strongly interrelated each other and in turn with the core design, by means of a tri-way bus/channel.

LPA entails three layers: archetypical, incorporeal and corporeal (on the left side of the schema). They are related in the informatics jargon (on the right side) to: design, installation and deployment, execution. The design phase deals with the “sources”, the installation phase deals with “executables” and the execution phase involves “processes” and outputs. Any computer programmer will recognize the standard iter of informatics engineering. LPA could quite well represent how an informatics or robotics engineer, in charge of developing a series of different robots, would organize the overall project, according to a high-level integrated vision. Warning: here I don’t affirm that living beings are simple robots. They are far higher and more complex than robots. But this, to greater reason, reinforces the ID argument, because this implies that their design and construction must be far more sophisticated than modern robotics.

The shift of the job from matter to abstractness, which greatly increases the flexibility, is a fundamental engineering principle, which LPA implements. The history of engineering and technology shows us that engineers have always strived to shift their job from matter to mind. Today engineers use high level abstract tools (CAE, CAD, CAM, etc.). No engineer would use directly low level Darwinian material evolution. Darwinism is a decrepit bankrupt way of thinking, unable to construct the least system. ID LPA is a modern and technologically sound way to construct complex systems.

Another point about LPA is that it agrees with engineering and in the same time is consistent with traditional cosmogony (when is correctly interpreted), according to which the manifestation of macrocosms and microcosms (which are analogous and share the same layering) is a top-down causation ID process that starts from archetypical principles, passes trough an intermediate incorporeal formation and finally concludes into the corporeal world. In LPA the teaching of tradition about creation and engineering meet. Not by chance or by my invention, rather because both describe complex constructions of intelligence. All sciences of construction necessarily share some basic principles that are universal. LPA meets such principles.

Also about the position of man in nature LPA is inverted respecting evolutionism because is “man-centric”. Here again tradition and engineering meet. In any traditional doctrine man is the “imago-Dei” “center of creation”, the hierarchically higher being who synthesizes in himself all others lower peripheral beings. Analogously, if an engineer wants to construct – say – a computer, he starts to think about the central processing unit, then he will develop the peripheral devices.

An important point is why I called the living beings as “kinds”, K0, K1, K2… in the LPA model. The high level design at the archetype layer doesn’t need to specify in advance and in details all the countless species, variants and races of a kind. These variants will differ from the parent kind only in some minor details, while kinds differ in major architectural body plan aspects. What is sufficient is to carefully design and insert into a set of main kinds the complex potentialities needed to generate their minor variants during reproduction of populations in history, by means of endogen and hexogen triggering signals or factors at run time. In few words, the biological “software” must be highly flexible and parametrized, scalable, allowing plasticity and micro-evolvability. I called “microevolution trees” the trees of variants for each kind K and I symbolized them with triangles inside the final corporeal layer. I believe it is sensible to identify the Ks to what in the classic taxonomy are families/kinds. Also most creationists agree on that. As example, Nathaniel T. Jeanson writes “reproductive compatibility identifies membership within a kind. Breeding experiments identify the classification rank of family (kingdom-phylum-class-order-family-genus-species) as roughly defining the boundaries of each kind”. This level is roughly the threshold below which microevolution trees begin.

What evidences support LPA? To my knowledge, the main biological data known so far – if you dismiss the evolutionist eyeglasses – fit well with LPA, because common design explains all things that Darwinian common descent seems to explain. With the difference that LPA has not the absurdities and contradictions that Darwinism has.

Comments
Shogun #31 Thanks, you ask:
I think the most mysterious part is the “how” of implementation. Is it possible that the library of information had a corporeal existence in the past as a unicellular organism that had all the information required to build all subsequent life forms? Such that the appearance of a major body plan is simply a matter of choosing which genes to express?
LPA is a stack of a three-layer top-down intelligent causation, which cause is the First Cause. This hierarchy cannot be stored simply in a flat one-layer body. In a sense this question is related to what I wrote in #17, to answer Box. IOW, agency/intelligence of beings (which always implies the higher layers of the LPA hierarchy) would be lost, if LPA is flattened to matter only.niwrad
March 13, 2013
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A very interesting and thought provoking theory niward. You must have put a lot of thought into it. Here is an interesting thought, given the centrality of humans in this picture, this could also mean that the incorporeal design phase can be stretched back all the way to the initial fine-tuning of the big bang. Which means that the designing process deals with not only Earth-bound biological variables, but also with a much larger array of universal variables. But this would be off topic for now. I think the most mysterious part is the "how" of implementation. Is it possible that the library of information had a corporeal existence in the past as a unicellular organism that had all the information required to build all subsequent life forms? Such that the appearance of a major body plan is simply a matter of choosing which genes to express? Just a thought.Shogun
March 13, 2013
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Genomicus, Eric has previously noted the evolutionist propensity for failure to note that the paradigm shift requires a shift in the thought process. In that vein, are you so fixated on the evolutionary explanations and how good you think they are that you are incapable of shifting your perspective and meeting the LPA proposal on its own terms? Have you deigned to put the shoe on the other foot and see how it fits, so to speak? Just askin', Stephen PS. I'm still chewing in spite of the extraction of a wisdom tooth just yesterday. Really.sterusjon
March 13, 2013
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A point that Darwinists make is that anti-Darwinists has not developed any theory for the origins of species, and think that is a weakness.
Even if ID has none were true, I think no theory would be a stronger position than having a false one.JGuy
March 13, 2013
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Genomicus #25
a. Why will we never find an example of an ERV that is only shared between humans and dogs, while we often find ERVs that are shared between humans and chimps? To put this differently: if we find the same ERV in a dog and human, we can predict, based on common descent, that chimps will also have this ERV. But if we find an ERV shared between chimps and humans, we cannot predict we will find this ERV in dogs. Why is this the case, given the LPA model?
LPA doesn't exclude at all that at the corporeal run-time layer genomic material (also viruses, retroviruses, etc.) be exchanged (and eventually become ERVs or provirus and pass to offspring) between kinds (and their variants trees). It is possible that, at this layer, ERVs be shared between humans and chimps and not shared between humans and dogs (likely for complex reasons related to the proximity of humans and chimps just at the design level – after all, as body, chimps are the animals more similar to humans – nobody deny that).
b. The ID hypothesis of front-loading specifically predicts that key eukaryotic proteins will share deep homology with functional but unnecessary prokaryotic proteins (that is, proteins unnecessary to the survival of the prokaryotic cell plan). Thus, if we find a protein conserved throughout eukaryotes, we can predict that prokaryotes will have homologs of this protein. How does LPA account for this?
I see no principle reasons why, in LPA, prokaryotic cells cannot have, just at the design level, functional but unnecessary proteins shared with eukaryotic cells. After all, dormant software in informatics is everywhere.niwrad
March 13, 2013
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Genomicus:
"It’s predicted based on our understanding of population genetics."
And exactly where are the population genetics equations published that predict these specific finding?
Macroevolution, microevolution and chemistry: the devil is in the details - Dr. V. J. Torley - February 27, 2013 Excerpt: Evolutionary biology has certainly been the subject of extensive mathematical theorizing. The overall name for this field is population genetics, or the study of allele frequency distribution and change under the influence of the four main evolutionary processes: natural selection, genetic drift, mutation and gene flow. Population genetics attempts to explain speciation within this framework. However, at the present time, there is no mathematical model – not even a “toy model” – showing that Darwin’s theory of macroevolution can even work, much less work within the time available. Darwinist mathematicians themselves have admitted as much.,,, We have seen that there’s currently no good theory that can serve as an adequate model for Darwinian macroevolution – even at a “holistic” level. As we saw, Professor Gregory Chaitin’s toy models don’t go down to the chemical level requested by Professor James Tour, but these models have failed to validate Darwin’s theory of evolution, or even show that it could work. At this point, there is an alternative line that (Nick) Matzke might want to take. He could claim that macroevolution is ultimately explicable in terms of bottom-level laws and physical processes, but that unfortunately, scientists haven’t discovered what they are yet. From a theoretical perspective, reductionism would then be true after all, and the chemical explanation of macroevolution demanded by Professor Tour could be given. From a practical standpoint, however, it would be impossible for scientists to provide such an explanation within the foreseeable future. If Matzke wishes to take this road, then he is tacitly admitting that scientists don’t yet know either the scientific laws (which are written in the language of mathematics) or the physical processes that ultimately explain and drive macroevolution. But if they don’t know either of these, then I would ask him: why should we believe that it actually occurs? After all, mathematics, scientific laws and observed processes are supposed to form the basis of all scientific explanation. If none of these provides support for Darwinian macroevolution, then why on earth should we accept it? Indeed, why does macroevolution belong in the province of science at all, if its scientific basis cannot be demonstrated? https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/macroevolution-microevolution-and-chemistry-the-devil-is-in-the-details/ The next evolutionary synthesis: from Lamarck and Darwin to genomic variation and systems biology Excerpt: If more than about three genes (nature unspecified) underpin a phenotype, the mathematics of population genetics, while qualitatively analyzable, requires too many unknown parameters to make quantitatively testable predictions [6]. The inadequacy of this approach is demonstrated by illustrations of the molecular pathways that generates traits [7]: the network underpinning something as simple as growth may have forty or fifty participating proteins whose production involves perhaps twice as many DNA sequences, if one includes enhancers, splice variants etc. Theoretical genetics simply cannot handle this level of complexity, let alone analyse the effects of mutation.. http://www.biosignaling.com/content/pdf/1478-811X-9-30.pdf Oxford University Admits Darwinism's Shaky Math Foundation - May 2011 Excerpt: However, mathematical population geneticists mainly deny that natural selection leads to optimization of any useful kind. This fifty-year old schism is intellectually damaging in itself, and has prevented improvements in our concept of what fitness is. - On a 2011 Job Description for a Mathematician, at Oxford, to 'fix' the persistent mathematical problems with neo-Darwinism within two years. Peer-Reviewed Paper Concludes that Darwinism "Has Pretty Much Reached the End of Its Rope" - Jonathan M. - February , 2012 Excerpt: Contrary to the Darwin lobby's oft-repeated assertion that there are absolutely no weaknesses in Darwinian theory, the paper offers the concession that the modern synthesis has never provided an account of "how major forms of life evolved" -- an omission that is not unsubstantial, to put it mildly. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/02/has_darwinism_p055941.html More from Ann Gauger on why humans didn’t happen the way Darwin said - July 2012 Excerpt: Each of these new features probably required multiple mutations. Getting a feature that requires six neutral mutations is the limit of what bacteria can produce. For primates (e.g., monkeys, apes and humans) the limit is much more severe. Because of much smaller effective population sizes (an estimated ten thousand for humans instead of a billion for bacteria) and longer generation times (fifteen to twenty years per generation for humans vs. a thousand generations per year for bacteria), it would take a very long time for even a single beneficial mutation to appear and become fixed in a human population. You don’t have to take my word for it. In 2007, Durrett and Schmidt estimated in the journal Genetics that for a single mutation to occur in a nucleotide-binding site and be fixed in a primate lineage would require a waiting time of six million years. The same authors later estimated it would take 216 million years for the binding site to acquire two mutations, if the first mutation was neutral in its effect. Facing Facts But six million years is the entire time allotted for the transition from our last common ancestor with chimps to us according to the standard evolutionary timescale. Two hundred and sixteen million years takes us back to the Triassic, when the very first mammals appeared. One or two mutations simply aren’t sufficient to produce the necessary changes— sixteen anatomical features—in the time available. At most, a new binding site might affect the regulation of one or two genes. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/more-from-ann-gauger-on-why-humans-didnt-happen-the-way-darwin-said/ Why Evolution Is Misunderstood - P.J. Levi - March 4, 2013 Excerpt: Consider the evolution of humans and chimps from a common ancestor, to which Coyne in his talk referred several times. Rather than offering evidence for such common ancestry, Coyne simply took it as a fact and then used it to support Darwinian selection. Yet the ubiquity of selection in creating these species makes little sense at the level of DNA -- the very level at which heritable change (evolution) occurs. By current estimates, the genomes of these two species differ by at least 300 million nucleotides. Given the premise that humans and chimps shared a common ancestor 6 million years ago, such a degree of divergence can only be accounted for by an average of 25 nucleotide changes per year in each line of descent. For Coyne's gradual version of the Darwinian mechanism to account for these differences, 25 new mutations would have to appear, conferring a reproductive advantage, and spread through each population every year. Yet even 25 advantageous substitutions per generation is unfathomable. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/03/why_evolution_i069771.html Using Numerical Simulation to Test the Validity of Neo-Darwinian Theory - 2008 Abstract: Evolutionary genetic theory has a series of apparent “fatal flaws” which are well known to population geneticists, but which have not been effectively communicated to other scientists or the public. These fatal flaws have been recognized by leaders in the field for many decades—based upon logic and mathematical formulations. However population geneticists have generally been very reluctant to openly acknowledge these theoretical problems, and a cloud of confusion has come to surround each issue. Numerical simulation provides a definitive tool for empirically testing the reality of these fatal flaws and can resolve the confusion. The program Mendel’s Accountant (Mendel) was developed for this purpose, and it is the first biologically-realistic forward-time population genetics numerical simulation program. This new program is a powerful research and teaching tool. When any reasonable set of biological parameters are used, Mendel provides overwhelming empirical evidence that all of the “fatal flaws” inherent in evolutionary genetic theory are real. This leaves evolutionary genetic theory effectively falsified—with a degree of certainty which should satisfy any reasonable and open-minded person. http://www.icr.org/i/pdf/technical/Using-Numerical-Simulation-to-Test-the-Validity-of-Neo-Darwinian-Theory.pdf
bornagain77
March 13, 2013
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Genomicus, Thanks for putting me on the straight and narrow. Also, thanks for you expansion of your two criticisms. That was helpful. I'll have to chew on it for a bit. Stephensterusjon
March 13, 2013
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Hi Stephen, I see where the confusion lies. Points a and b in #7 are the same as b and c in number 2. My critique of the LPA model based on the fossil record appears to have been irrelevant and tangential. Thus, I am offering the following criticisms of the LPA view for analysis:
a. Why will we never find an example of an ERV that is only shared between humans and dogs, while we often find ERVs that are shared between humans and chimps? To put this differently: if we find the same ERV in a dog and human, we can predict, based on common descent, that chimps will also have this ERV. But if we find an ERV shared between chimps and humans, we cannot predict we will find this ERV in dogs. Why is this the case, given the LPA model? b. The ID hypothesis of front-loading specifically predicts that key eukaryotic proteins will share deep homology with functional but unnecessary prokaryotic proteins (that is, proteins unnecessary to the survival of the prokaryotic cell plan). Thus, if we find a protein conserved throughout eukaryotes, we can predict that prokaryotes will have homologs of this protein. How does LPA account for this?
Genomicus
March 13, 2013
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Genomicus, Just seeking a clarification. In #18 did you intend to claim "points a and b in #7 are relevant critiques of this view" or "points b and c in #2 are relevant critiques of this view"? Not being hypercritical. Just don't want to leave any confusion lying around on the table. Heaven knows, I make more than my share of slup ips. Stephen Stephensterusjon
March 13, 2013
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Genomicus
Among primates, we would predict some phylogenetic incongruities of ERV sequences precisely because of lineage-specific sorting.
To clarify, I'm referring to an ERV fixed at the root of a primate tree, but missing in only certain descendents. Conservation and loss of the ERV3 open reading frame in primates. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15081124 ERV3 sequences were amplified by PCR from genomic DNA of great ape and Old World primates but not from New World primates or gorilla, suggesting an integration event more than 30 million years ago with a subsequent loss in one species. Now to what extent is this incongruence permitted? If you can excuse it in primate lineages, what difference does it make to extend further down the tree? Where is the cut-off point for falsifiability, and what empirical criteria determines this? Additionally, as BA77 referred you to in his links, ERVs are found to play crucial roles in early development in the species in which they are present. How reasonable is it to conclude then, that they will be selected out of a population?lifepsy
March 13, 2013
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PTERV1 in chimpanzee, African great apes and old World monkeys but not in humans and asian apes (orangutan, siamang, and gibbon). http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....174826.htm
I already answered that though:
Among primates, we would predict some phylogenetic incongruities of ERV sequences precisely because of lineage-specific sorting.
It's predicted based on our understanding of population genetics. For all practical purposes, you're spamming me with links. Choose one article you'd like to discuss that you think refutes my points.Genomicus
March 13, 2013
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Some (inconsistencies) ERVs that don't fit into the naturalistic evolutionary assumption of common descent: PTERV1 in chimpanzee, African great apes and old World monkeys but not in humans and asian apes (orangutan, siamang, and gibbon). http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050328174826.htm The Human Lineage Was Somehow “Purged” - Cornelius Hunter - April 2012 Excerpt: Another such feature is the lack of endemic infectious retroviruses in humans. The problem is that these viruses are present in the other primates, and so according to evolutionists these viruses must be present in their common ancestor which, again according to evolution, would be an ancestor of humans as well.,, In other words, when evolution spontaneously created humans our DNA must have been “purged.” We got a do-over! Hilarious. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/04/unbelievableevolution-in-complete-free.html More Counterpoints on ERVs - JonathanM - May 2011 Excerpt: 'In the absence of a feasible naturalistic mechanism to account for how evolution from a common ancestor could have occurred, how can we be so sure that it did occur? In such a case, one ought to reasonably expect there to be some quite spectacular evidence for common ancestry. Unfortunately for Darwinists, however, the evidence for common ancestry is paper thin on the ground.' http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/more_points_on_ervs046761.html Retroviruses and Common Descent: And Why I Don’t Buy It - September 2011 Excerpt: If it is the case, as has been suggested by some, that these HERVs are an integral part of the functional genome, then one might expect to discover species-specific commonality and discontinuity. And this is indeed the case. https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/retroviruses-and-common-descent-and-why-i-dont-buy-it/ moreover,, Refutation Of Endogenous Retrovirus - ERVs - Richard Sternberg, PhD Evolutionary Biology - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4094119 Sternberg, R. v. & J. A. Shapiro (2005). How repeated retroelements format genome function. Cytogenet. Genome Res. 110: 108-116. Endogenous retroviruses regulate periimplantation placental growth and differentiation - 2006 http://www.pnas.org/content/103/39/14390.abstract. Retrovirus in the Human Genome Is Active in Pluripotent Stem Cells - Jan. 23, 2013 Excerpt: "What we've observed is that a group of endogenous retroviruses called HERV-H is extremely busy in human embryonic stem cells," said Jeremy Luban, MD, the David L. Freelander Memorial Professor in HIV/AIDS Research, professor of molecular medicine and lead author of the study. "In fact, HERV-H is one of the most abundantly expressed genes in pluripotent stem cells and it isn't found in any other cell types. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130123133930.htm Transposable Elements Reveal a Stem Cell Specific Class of Long Noncoding RNAs - (Nov. 26, 2012) Excerpt: The study published by Rinn and Kelley finds a striking affinity for a class of hopping genes known as endogenous retroviruses, or ERVs, to land in lincRNAs. The study finds that ERVs are not only enriched in lincRNAs, but also often sit at the start of the gene in an orientation to promote transcription. Perhaps more intriguingly, lincRNAs containing an ERV family known as HERVH correlated with expression in stem cells relative to dozens of other tested tissues and cells. According to Rinn, "This strongly suggests that ERV transposition in the genome may have given rise to stem cell-specific lincRNAs. The observation that HERVHs landed at the start of dozens of lincRNAs was almost chilling; that this appears to impart a stem cell-specific expression pattern was simply stunning!" http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121125192838.htmbornagain77
March 13, 2013
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And what if we’ve found the same ERV in basal primates and humans...
What do you mean by "basal primates" exactly? Among primates, we would predict some phylogenetic incongruities of ERV sequences precisely because of lineage-specific sorting.
If we do find an ERV in a basal mammal and human, but not other primates, will it falsify common descent?
Yes.Genomicus
March 13, 2013
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Genomicus (7)
To put this differently: if we find the same ERV in a dog and human, we can predict, based on common descent, that chimps will also have this ERV. But if we find an ERV shared between chimps and humans, we cannot predict we will find this ERV in dogs. Why is this the case, given the LPA model?
And what if we've found the same ERV in basal primates and humans, but missing somewhere in-between primate evolution? To what extent are your predictions allowed to fail and still be used as evidence? If we do find an ERV in a basal mammal and human, but not other primates, will it falsify common descent? Or will it be absorbed with an ad-hoc explanation?lifepsy
March 13, 2013
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I see that Genomicus is taking something away from your schematic differently than I am.
You're right, of course. I misread the figure. Nevertheless, my points a and b in #7 are relevant critiques of this view.Genomicus
March 13, 2013
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Box #16
"Are living beings [...] without agency? If not, where in LPA is the input of our own agency? Is the Designer doing everything?"
Living beings are different from robots because DO have agency. The "input of our own agency" is not illustrated in the LPA schema, because is metaphysical while LPA is cosmological. Of course "our own agency" comes directly from the Designer.niwrad
March 13, 2013
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Eric Anderson #5 Thanks, I largely agree with your comment.niwrad
March 13, 2013
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Niwrad:
Warning: here I don’t affirm that living beings are simple robots. They are far higher and more complex than robots. But this, to greater reason, reinforces the ID argument, because this implies that their design and construction must be far more sophisticated than modern robotics.
You say that living beings are not simple robots, but far higher, more complex and far more sophisticated than modern robots. But robots nonetheless? IOW is only the design process top-down, but are living beings themselves without top-down control; without agency? If not, where in LPA is the input of our own agency? Is the Designer doing everything?Box
March 13, 2013
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G:
But ID is not creationism.
Yet if Creation is true, ID is true. (However if Creation is false ID is not false)Joe
March 13, 2013
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niwrad, After posting my previous comment, it occurred to me that a good way to view the corporeal layer is as the execution of run-time code that is inherently time sequence dependent. While time is irrelevant to the design and incorporeal layers and the sequence of "events" is driven by the logistics of design. Not the time driven execution sequence. Stephensterusjon
March 13, 2013
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sterusjon #10 Thanks, good note, you have understood my intentions correctly. Also if the time scale (x-axis) seems to apply to the entire surface of the Cartesian plane representing the LPA, the time scale in the two upper layers (archetypic and incorporeal – i.e. design and installation) somehow loses its meaning. In the analogy of informatics, the process time (or run time) is NOT the time of design and installation. Any schema is necessarily symbolic and defective respecting reality ...niwrad
March 13, 2013
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William J Murray #6 Thanks, your "how the LPA heuristic can be used to make more useful predictions?" is really a good question. I don't know in details (I will think about). LPA is a general model. As you say, it, with its three main phases, decouples design and implementation by mean of an intermediate interface that gives flexibility. Anyway, the easy prediction of a strong design integration and flexibility, for example, is that molecular and also system similarities will be found again and again, likely also where now it is unthinkable.niwrad
March 13, 2013
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niwrad, I see that Genomicus is taking something away from your schematic differently than I am. His is failing to understand that the time scale (at least not the same time scale) that is applicable to the corporeal layer is not applicable to the incorporeal and design layers. I trust I have understood your intentions correctly. An edit to the schematic may be in order so as to make that clear. Stephensterusjon
March 13, 2013
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Genomicus, Since I am one of the a dastardly Creationists that supports intelligent design arguments based on empirical data as a way to conduct a discourse with the evolutionist, allow me explain why I do not see the Creationist tone as inappropriate. In spite of the fact that I would prefer to stick with the empirical observables in the intelligent design vs. natural processes only discussion, the opponent, oft’ times, charges that there is no coherent, thoughtful attempt at an intelligent design mechanism put forth by anyone, anywhere, ever. The very fact that niwrad has put forth something that has obviously been given some consideration on his part, belies that canard. I do not expect his proposal to be acceptable to the opponents. It is not likely to be received with open arms by many on our side. However, the fact that it has been articulated is valuable. For myself, at first blush, I found it intriguing. It parallels much of my own thinking. I am glad niwrad has made the post. It may serve to help me crystallize some of my far more amorphous thoughts on the subject. Stephen PS. Eric, your point about the evolutionist's real challenge- "Give me your answer to "How?" is right on point.sterusjon
March 13, 2013
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William J. Murray:
Designed “at once” doesn’t mean “implemented at once”. Indeed, certain organisms are required to exist for long periods of time before certain other organisms can be inserted because the environment must be conditioned in some way by the preceding organism. Otherwise, the following organisms cannot survive.
See the figure in the OP. The taxa are implemented at once.Genomicus
March 13, 2013
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ID is a big tent.
But ID is not creationism. Why, then, use creationist terms? This only makes it seem like ID really is trying to further the creationist cause.
Fossil record is after the scrambling.
So you don't accept the validity of dates obtained by radiometric dating? Why not?
I don’t see where molecular data refutes LPA.
See below on ERVs.
Shared libraries and common design don’t imply that all must share all.
This does not address the specific problems I outlined: a. Why will we never find an example of an ERV that is only shared between humans and dogs, while we often find ERVs that are shared between humans and chimps? To put this differently: if we find the same ERV in a dog and human, we can predict, based on common descent, that chimps will also have this ERV. But if we find an ERV shared between chimps and humans, we cannot predict we will find this ERV in dogs. Why is this the case, given the LPA model? b. The ID hypothesis of front-loading specifically predicts that key eukaryotic proteins will share deep homology with functional but unnecessary prokaryotic proteins (that is, proteins unnecessary to the survival of the prokaryotic cell plan). Thus, if we find a protein conserved throughout eukaryotes, we can predict that prokaryotes will have homologs of this protein. How does LPA account for this?Genomicus
March 13, 2013
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First, niwrad: what a great addition to ID resources! This needs to be pinned somewhere. Second: besides solving the same evolutionary issues that Darwinism cannot without employing absurdity (convergence, sudden appearance, lack of "junk" DNA, ORFan genes, stasis, etc.), have you thought much about how the LPA heuristic can be used to make more useful predictions or retrodictions? Because it looks to me like you've laid out the basic working premise for making significant ID-based "evolutionary" (in the general sense) predictions. Genomicus said:
a. If I understand the LPA idea correctly, all species were designed at once. This is not only refuted by the fossil record, but also by molecular data.
Designed "at once" doesn't mean "implemented at once". Indeed, certain organisms are required to exist for long periods of time before certain other organisms can be inserted because the environment must be conditioned in some way by the preceding organism. Otherwise, the following organisms cannot survive.William J Murray
March 13, 2013
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Interesting OP, and some good thoughts worth thinking about. Just one thing I want to expand on a bit:
A point that Darwinists make is that anti-Darwinists has not developed any theory for the origins of species, and think that is a weakness.
Part of the difficulty comes with determining what the Darwinist objection is. In my experience, after pinning Darwinists down on what they mean by a theory of creation or origins, it turns out they are asking for a material mechanism. So rather than giving a long response with speculations about what a designer would or would not do, I prefer to point out that the very complaint they are making is misplaced. ID is not a mechanistic theory. It makes no more sense for me to develop a "theory" for a specific creative event in biology than it would for me to develop a mechanistic theory for how the iPod came about. How do designers create? Well, they have an idea, they research different materials, they draw upon various fields of knowledge and experience, they build prototypes, they tinker, they analyze, and ultimately come up with a finished design and an instruction set for building the item. We can have an interesting discussion about different design principles and design schemes; we can discuss other indicia of design found in biology. But ultimately these primarily just point back to the fact that something was designed, and only rarely give us insight into "how." "How" is not a question ID necessarily has to answer. Purely mechanistic theories -- evolution/Darwinism -- are all about the "how." They must propose a "how" or they fail as theories. Design is not about the "how" so much as it is about the purposiveness or the intentionality. Materialists can jump up and down and complain all they want about ID's failure to provide a "how," but that is not a failing of ID; it is just a failing of their materialistic expectations. ----- All that said, if someone wants to go beyond ID itself and use the implications of design to propose possible design approaches to life, I think that is an interesting and valuable effort in its own right, as the OP shows. We should just keep in mind that for a design inference itself to be valid, it need not address the "how."Eric Anderson
March 13, 2013
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Genomicus #2
This [UD] is supposed to be about intelligent design, so why borrow terms from creationism?
ID is a big tent.
a. If I understand the LPA idea correctly, all species were designed at once. This is not only refuted by the fossil record, but also by molecular data.
Fossil record is after the scrambling. I don't see where molecular data refute LPA.
b. Furthermore, it entirely fails to explain why say, chimps and humans exclusively share some endogenous retroviruses, but humans and dogs do not share ERVs exclusively. Why is this the case? c. It also does not explain why crucial eukaryotic proteins share deep homology with prokaryotic counterparts – which is expected from front-loading but not from the LPA view.
Shared libraries and common design don't imply that all must share all.niwrad
March 13, 2013
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Why is it that no one talks about the evolution of the vision system?
Because the evolutionists is out of touch with reality. If they were to actually try to build according to their science fictions, they would find that what (they think) works on paper is physically impossible. By focusing on as small a part as possible, they can ignore the hard part of a system's component coordination and integration. They are completely oblivious to the fact that even the simplest component is part of a multi-component system. An "eye" consisting of single photo-sensitive molecule is of no value without the subsystem that integrates it with the behavior subsystem. The production of the photo-sensitive molecule requires another subsystem. That is three subsystems. Their brains are beginning to hurt. Better to just focus on the "eye" where everyone can see there is no problem for evolution to produce an "eye ball" from an "eye" just by adding a bit at a time. See, it's just that easy. No advil required.sterusjon
March 13, 2013
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