Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Low Probability is Only Half of Specified Complexity

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In a prior post the order of a deck of cards was used as an example of specified complexity.  If a deck is shuffled and it results in all of the cards being ordered by rank and suit, one can infer design.  One commenter objected to this reasoning on the grounds that the specified order is no more improbable than any other order of cards (about 1 in 10^68).  In other words, the probably of every deck order is about 1 in 10^68, so why should we infer something special about this deck order simply because it has a low probability.

Well, last night at my friendly poker game I decided to test this theory.  We were playing five card poker with no draws after the deal.  On the first hand I delt myself a royal flush in spades.  Eyebrows were raised, but no one objected.  On the second hand I delt myself a royal flush in spades, as well as every hand all the way through the 13th. 

When my friends objected I said, “Lookit, your intuition has led you astray.  You are infering design — that is to say that I’m cheating — simply on the basis of the low probability of this sequence of events.  But don’t you understand that the odds of me receiving 13 royal flushes in spades in a row is exactly the same as me receiving any other 13 hands. ” In a rather didactic tone of voice I continued, “Let me explain.  In the game we are playing there are 2,598,960 possible hands.  The odds of receiving a straight flush in spades is therefore 1 in 2,598,960.  But don’t you see, the odds of receiving ANY hand are exactly the same, 1 in 2,598,960.  And the odds of a series of events is simply the product of the odds of all of the events.  Therefore the odds of receiving 13 royal flushes in spades in a row is about 2.74^-71.  But, and here’s the clincher, the odds of receiving ANY series of 13 hands is exactly the same, 2.74^-71.  So there, pay up and kwicher whinin’.” 

Unfortunately for me, one of my friends actually understands the theory of specified complexity, and right about this time this buttinski speaks up and says, “Nice analysis, but you are forgetting one thing.  Low probability is only half of what you need for a design inference.  You have completely skipped an analysis of the other half — i.e. [don’t you just hate it when people use “i.e.” in spoken language] A SPECIFICATION.”

“Waddaya mean, Mr. Smarty Pants,” I replied.  “My logic is unassailable. ” “Not so fast,” he said.  “Let me explain.  There are two  types of complex patterns, those that warrant a design inference (we call this a ‘specification’ and those that do not (which we call a ‘fabrication’).  The difference between a specification and a fabrication is the descriptive complexity of the underlying patterns [see Professor Sewell’s paper linked to his post below for a more detailed explanation of this].  A specification has a very simple description, in our case ’13 royal flushes in spades in a row.’  A fabrication has a very complex description.  For example, another 13 hand sequence could be described as ‘1 pair; 3 of a kind; no pair; no pair; 2 pair; straight; no pair; full house; no pair; 2 pair; 1 pair; 1 pair; flush.’  In summary, BarryA, our fellow players’ intuition has not led them astray.  Not only is the series of hands you delt yourself massively improbable, it is also clearly a specification.  A design inference is not only warranted, it is compelled.  I infer you are a no good, four flushin’, egg sucking mule of a cheater.”  He then turned to one of the other players and said, “Get a rope.”  Then I woke up.

Comments
Interesting post, seems to be getting a bit heated in here - but I am learning a lot. So, for my own clarity, is the post saying that low probability is the same as complexity? From here specified complexity is defined: An event with a low probability that is necessary/desired, and does indeed occur? So, to keep the analogies rolling lets use a dart board. Any particular point on a dartboard has a probability near zero- however the bullseye is desired. The probability of the bullseye is greater than the probability of a point- but still low compared to the rest of the dartboard. Now, if someone hits the bullseye some might blow it off as "luck", but if it occurs again people often begin to wonder. Either the player is skilled, or "very lucky". But even these two appear to be probabilities: P(skilled) and P(~skilled)... However when the player consistently hits the bullseye- say 13 times in a row, people understand that P(~skilled) goes to 0... thus a person can infer skill. So, one aspect of ID seems to note not only the low probability of a single event occuring, but the likelihood of it reoccuring? If my analogy is correct, what happens if someone desires a different point but consistently hits the bullseye? We can infer some skill in precision, but not accuracy. Thanks.bork
October 31, 2007
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ReligionProf @ #1: Kudos to you for your interest in biological realities. I am too, but I’m not a scientist so I’m having a hard time following your analogy. Help me out by specifying an actual, real-world example in which only four kinds of cards exist, from which an advantageous combination of three cards is preserved into the next shuffle. Thanks in advance, -sbSteveB
October 31, 2007
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interested, I'm almost sorry I brought the subject up in another thread. I am totally ignorant of the existence of playing cards, the reasons for their existence,and the games played with them, under what circumstances might I find myself playing a card game with someone who does know all of those things?Mickey Bitsko
October 31, 2007
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Mickey, the 2,598,960 number did not come out of the air. If one examines a deck of cards and does the math concerning the possible five card combinations, that number will always be the result of their calculations. It is a simple step to understand that the royal flush in spades is only 1 of those combinations. Then the math is easy.BarryA
October 31, 2007
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but mickey... if someone was playing a game with you and passed out cards....suddenly you realized that whatever the rules of the game were, they continued to deal themselves a hand that beat all of the other hands...you would have more than enough information to recognize CSI. i think that's the point and i think the analogy works well enough for it to stand as a strong one when it comes to what Evolutionists believe happens with DNA.interested
October 31, 2007
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If I were to encounter the text string you give as an example, I would first consider context. For example if someone handed me a piece of paper with it written on it, I would infer that some sort of meaning were involved and proceed to try and discover it. There is no practical situation I can think of where I wouldn't wonder about the meaning, in fact. In similar fashion, if I were ignorant of the existence of playing cards and their use, I would probably infer some purpose, but have no way of knowing what it might be. Thus if I were to turn over the first five cards and they formed a royal flush, I would have no way of knowing whether or not the pattern was significant, or just the result of random ordering. This is fundamentally different from your cryptographic example, and provides further support that the playing card analogy doesn't work. I understand the basics of the concept of CSI, and I'm not arguing against it. I'm only saying that the card deck analogy is not a good example.Mickey Bitsko
October 31, 2007
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My opinion is the term "specified complexity" can be translated to "meaningful". When you get an objection to specified complexity that most people notice, the person is claiming that the pattern has no meaning. Of course it has meaning otherwise most people wouldn't notice it from the other background noise. If it was just another meaningless pattern then most people wouldn't bother to say anything about it.Lurker
October 31, 2007
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Mickey, sorry. You are mistaken. Dembski explains the concept you are getting at as follows: The pattern doesn’t need to be given prior to an event to imply design. Consider the following cipher text: nfuijolt ju jt mjlf b xfbtfm Initially this looks like a random sequence of letters and spaces—initially you lack any pattern for rejecting chance and inferring design. But suppose next that someone comes along and tells you to treat this sequence as a Caesar cipher, moving each letter one notch down the alphabet. Behold, the sequence now reads, methinks it is like a weasel Even though the pattern is now given after the fact, it still is the right sort of pattern for eliminating chance and inferring design. In contrast to statistics, which always tries to identify its patterns before an experiment is performed, cryptanalysis must discover its patterns after the fact. In both instances, however, the patterns are suitable for inferring design. Go here for the whole article: http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9810/articles/dembski.htmlBarryA
October 31, 2007
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Barry, I think that there's a good possibility that if I were to accept your kind offer, one of us would be poorer at the end of the evening, but that has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I understand both the rules of poker and the rules of probability. It's an ignorant observer you're looking for, which support my point, no?Mickey Bitsko
October 31, 2007
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Mickey, please please please come to my house for poker tonight.BarryA
October 31, 2007
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BarryA, I still say that the deck of cards analogy doesn't work because it requires pattern recognition that is not available to all observers. Understand, I'm not arguing against the concept of CSI itself. For someone who's never seen a deck of cards, and who has no knowledge of the rules (or even the existence) of poker, the concept of a straight flush is meaningless and for that observer, the strict rules of probability--that any five-card hand is no more improbable than any other--will rule. In this case, the precise specification is arbitrary and a matter of foreknowledge, so the construction is necessarily tautological.Mickey Bitsko
October 31, 2007
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This analogy will only convince people who want to believe it. It poorly matches the biological realities, in which there would only be four kinds of cards in the deck, and advantageous hands (combinations of three cards) would be preserved into the next shuffle. If you try a story with those limitations, I think you'll find it much harder to make your case.ReligionProf
October 31, 2007
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