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Macroevolution, microevolution and chemistry: the devil is in the details

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Professor James M. Tour, who is one of the ten most cited chemists in the world, has been publicly criticized for forthrightly declaring in an online essay that while microevolution (or small changes within a species) is well-understood by scientists, there is no scientist alive today who understands how macroevolution is supposed to work, at a chemical level:

I do have scientific problems understanding macroevolution as it is usually presented. I simply can not accept it as unreservedly as many of my scientist colleagues do, although I sincerely respect them as scientists. Some of them seem to have little trouble embracing many of evolution’s proposals based upon (or in spite of) archeological, mathematical, biochemical and astrophysical suggestions and evidence, and yet few are experts in all of those areas, or even just two of them. Although most scientists leave few stones unturned in their quest to discern mechanisms before wholeheartedly accepting them, when it comes to the often gross extrapolations between observations and conclusions on macroevolution, scientists, it seems to me, permit unhealthy leeway. When hearing such extrapolations in the academy, when will we cry out, “The emperor has no clothes!”?

“From what I can see, microevolution is a fact; we see it all around us regarding small changes within a species, and biologists demonstrate this procedure in their labs on a daily basis. Hence, there is no argument regarding microevolution. The core of the debate for me, therefore, is the extrapolation of microevolution to macroevolution….

I simply do not understand, chemically, how macroevolution could have happened. Hence, am I not free to join the ranks of the skeptical and to sign such a statement without reprisals from those that disagree with me? Furthermore, when I, a non-conformist, ask proponents for clarification, they get flustered in public and confessional in private wherein they sheepishly confess that they really don’t understand either. Well, that is all I am saying: I do not understand. But I am saying it publicly as opposed to privately. Does anyone understand the chemical details behind macroevolution?

A Layman’s Reflections on Evolution and Creation. An Insider’s View of the Academy.

In response, evolutionary biologist Nick Matzke has accused Professor Tour of being fundamentally ignorant about evolution. According to Matzke, the very idea that “explaining macroevolution is a matter of ‘chemistry’” is a “bizarre, naive, and confused idea.”

Before making his remarks, Matzke might have read benefited from reading a 1996 essay by biochemist and Intelligent Design proponent Professor Michael Behe, entitled, Molecular Machines: Experimental Support for the Design Inference. After a detailed discussion of the biochemistry of vertebrate vision (which is illustrated in the above diagram of the visual cycle), Behe concludes:

In order to say that some function is understood, every relevant step in the process must be elucidated. The relevant steps in biological processes occur ultimately at the molecular level, so a satisfactory explanation of a biological phenomenon such as sight, or digestion, or immunity, must include a molecular explanation. It is no longer sufficient, now that the black box of vision has been opened, for an ‘evolutionary explanation’ of that power to invoke only the anatomical structures of whole eyes, as Darwin did in the 19th century and as most popularizers of evolution continue to do today. Anatomy is, quite simply, irrelevant. So is the fossil record. It does not matter whether or not the fossil record is consistent with evolutionary theory, any more than it mattered in physics that Newton’s theory was consistent with everyday experience. The fossil record has nothing to tell us about, say, whether or how the interactions of 11-cis-retinal with rhodopsin, transducin, and phosphodiesterase could have developed step-by-step. Neither do the patterns of biogeography matter, or of population genetics, or the explanations that evolutionary theory has given for rudimentary organs or species abundance.

The point which Professor Behe makes for vision applies equally to macroevolution as a whole. The relevant steps in macroevolutionary processes occur ultimately at the molecular level, so a satisfactory explanation of macroevolution must include a molecular explanation. Note that Behe is not saying here that biological processes are reducible to molecular chemistry: rather, he is saying that they must include a discussion of molecular chemistry.

Likewise, when Professor Tour publicly declares that no scientist alive today understands the chemical details behind macroevolution, he is not espousing the naïve reductionist line that “explaining macroevolution is a matter of ‘chemistry’”; rather, he is simply pointing out that in order to properly assess the feasibility of Darwinian macroevolution as a theory, we have to ascertain whether it is chemically feasible. If, for some reason, certain macroevolutionary transitions appear to be highly improbable from a chemical standpoint, then that in itself is a good reason to be skeptical of the view that Darwin’s theory of evolution is an all-inclusive theory of biology.

I should like to add that Professor Tour is not an Intelligent Design proponent; he is simply a Darwin skeptic.

In this post, I’d like to discuss macroevolution and revisit the question: “Is skepticism about macroevolution reasonable?”

What is Macroevolution? Some definitions

Before we go any further, however, I’d like to clarify exactly what macroevolution is, by quoting a few definitions from acknowledged experts in the field, for the benefit of readers who (like myself) are not scientists.

Most standard scientific references define macroevolution as evolution “at or beyond the species level,” in the words of Dr. Douglas Theobald, author of 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution. As such, macroevolution consists of changes that occur over the long-term. Macroevolution is defined in contrast with microevolution, which occurs within a species and is defined as “the short-term changes in a population’s gene pool” (Purves W. K., Orians G. H., & Heller H. C., Life: The Science of Biology, 1992, 3rd Edition. Sinauer Associates, Inc., W. H. Freeman and Company, Sunderland, Massachusetts, USA, p. 418).

Macroevolution has also been defined by Professor Jerry Coyne as “large changes in body form or the evolution of one type of plant or animal from another type” (Why Evolution Is True. 2009. Oxford University Press, Glossary, pp. 268-269).

Finally, the term “macroevolution” refers to “evolutionary processes that work across separated gene pools,” whereas the term “microevolution” refers to “evolutionary processes within gene pools, such as the origin and spread of individual gene variants” (Matzke, Nicholas J., and Gross, Paul R. 2006. “Analyzing Critical Analysis: The Fallback Antievolutionist Strategy.” Chapter 2 of Not in Our Classrooms: Why Intelligent Design is Wrong for Our Schools. Scott, E., and Branch, G., eds., Beacon Press, pp. 49-50, italics mine – VJT.)

The following definitions of macroevolution (many of which were retrieved by Mung, Optimus, and other assiduous Uncommon Descent readers) are fairly representative of the scientific literature:

“In evolutionary theory, macroevolution involves common ancestry, descent with modification, speciation, the genealogical relatedness of all life, transformation of species, and large scale functional and structural changes of populations through time, all at or above the species level (Freeman and Herron 2004; Futuyma 1998; Ridley 1993).”

– Theobald, Douglas L. 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution.

Evolutionary change occurs on different scales: ‘microevolution’ is generally equated with events at or below the species level whereas ‘macroevolution’ is change above the species level, including the formation of species. A long-standing issue in evolutionary biology is whether the processes observable in extant populations and species (microevolution) are sufficient to account for the larger-scale changes evident over longer periods of life’s history (macroevolution).

– Carroll, Sean B. 2001 (Feb 8). Nature 409:669.
(Cited by high-school science teacher, creationist and former atheist Richard Peachey here.)

Macroevolution is evolution on a grand scale – what we see when we look at the over-arching history of life: stability, change, lineages arising, and extinction.”

Definition of “Macroevolution” at Berkeley University’s “Understanding Evolution” Website.

The short-term changes in a population’s gene pool… are often called microevolution. Microevolutionary studies are an important part of evolutionary biology because short-term changes can be observed directly and subjected to experimental manipulations. Studies of short-term changes reveal much about evolution, but by themselves they cannot provide a complete explanation of the long-term changes that are often called macroevolution. Macroevolutionary changes can be strongly influenced by events that occur so infrequently that they are unlikely to be observed during microevolutionary studies. Also, because the way evolutionary agents act changes over time, we cannot interpret the past simply by extending today’s results backward in time. Additional types of evidence must be gathered if we wish to understand the course of evolution over more than a billion years.”

– Purves W. K., Orians G. H., & Heller H. C., Life: The Science of Biology, 1992, 3rd Edition. Sinauer Associates, Inc., W. H. Freeman and Company, Sunderland, Massachusetts, USA, p. 418. Cited by Optimus here.

“Creationists usually concede that evolutionary theory provides a satisfactory explanation of micro-evolutionary processes, but they dig in their heels when it comes to macro-evolution. Here, creationists are using the distinction that biologists draw between evolutionary novelties that arise within a species and the appearance of traits that mark the origin of new species.

– Sober, Elliott. Evidence and Evolution: The Logic Behind the Science. 2008. Cambridge University Press, United Kingdom, p. 182. Cited by Mung, here.

“What really excites people – biologists and paleontologists among them – are transitional forms: those fossils that span the gap between two very different kinds of living organisms. Did birds really come from reptiles, and land animals from fish, and whales from land animals? If so, where is the fossil evidence? Even some creationists will admit that minor changes in size and shape might occur over time – a process called microevolution – but they reject the idea that one very different kind of animal or plant can come from another (macroevolution).”

– Coyne, Jerry A. Why Evolution Is True. 2009. Oxford University Press, p. 36. Cited by Mung here.

“MACROEVOLUTION: ‘Major’ evolutionary change, usually thought of as large changes in body form or the evolution of one type of plant or animal from another type. The change from our primate ancestor to modern humans, or from early reptiles to birds, would be considered macroevolution.

“MICROEVOLUTION: ‘Minor’ evolutionary change, such as the change in size or color of a species. One example is the evolution of different skin colors or hair types among human populations; another is the evolution of antibiotic resistance in bacteria.”

– Coyne, Jerry A. Why Evolution Is True. 2009. Oxford University Press, Glossary, pp. 268-269.

“To a biologist, the “it’s just microevolution” argument is painfully obtuse. In normal science, “microevolution” refers to evolutionary processes within gene pools, such as the origin and spread of individual gene variants. “Macroevolution” refers to evolutionary processes that work across separated gene pools. Speciation, a process that can be observed in nature, and that creationists accept, is the boundary between microevolution and macroevolution, because speciation occurs when one gene pool permanently splits into two separate gene pools. A speciation event is a case of macroevolution. So are other events that apply to whole gene pools, such as extinction…

“Evolutionary biologists on both sides of famously contentious debates seem to agree that the definition of macroevolution boils down to “evolution above the species level.”

– Matzke, Nicholas J., and Gross, Paul R. (2006). “Analyzing Critical Analysis: The Fallback Antievolutionist Strategy.” Chapter 2 of Not in Our Classrooms: Why Intelligent Design is Wrong for Our Schools. Scott, E., and Branch, G., eds., Beacon Press, pp. 49-50. Cited by Nick Matzke here.

Terminological ambiguities – different usages of the term “macroevolution”

In the interests of fairness and clarity, I’d like to quote the following passage by biologist Nick Matzke, on the various senses of the word “macroevolution”:

This highlights another thing creationists and other ill-informed antievolutionists just don’t get: just because different writers are talking about the word “macroevolution”, doesn’t mean that they are talking about the same thing. And the discussions aren’t even the same over the decades that those quotes are mined from.

E.g., within macroevolution, scientists study:

speciation (splitting of gene pools, reproductive isolation mechanisms)

lineage dynamics (rates of speciation and extinction; mass extinctions; patterns in phylogenetic trees)

rates of change across species in the fossil record – punctuated equilibrium, contrary to virtually all infuriating, blindly-repeated silliness from antievolutionists, was just about how speciation – the SMALLEST sort of macroevolutionary change – appears in the fossil record. It is about small jumps in morphology between closely-related sister species.

evolution of development, including both “novel” structures and “exaptation” (the latter being far more common than true novelty, whatever “true novelty” means)

the statistical estimation of the history of character change (or biogeographic change, etc.) on phylogenetic trees, and inference of the best statistical models that describe this process

origin of “higher taxa” – this is common in older literature, but Linnaean ranked taxonomy is being gradually abandoned in biology, since we can just use phylogenies without needing any artificial ranks, which were never well-defined anyway

Scientists can be talking about any of the above, or other topics, under the topic of “macroevolution”. And for any of the above, a debate can be had about to what extent an extrapolationist model works as an explanation.

– Matzke, Nicholas J., in a comment on my Uncommon Descent post, A world-famous chemist tells the truth: there’s no scientist alive today who understands macroevolution.

Historical note: Where did the term “macroevolution” come from?

At this point, some readers may be wondering where the term “macroevolution” and “microevolution” came from in the first place. It turns out that they have a long and controversial history, as biologists have flip-flopped over the last ninety years, on the question of whether the former is explicable in terms of the latter:

I. A. Filipchenko (1929) coined the terms microevolution and macroevolution and argued that one could not be inferred from the other. Macroevolution concerned the origins of higher taxa. Originally, H. F. Osborn (1925), G. G. Simpson, and other American paleontologists did not accept the view that the fossil record could be explained by the accumulation of minute selectable changes over millions of years. But… by 1951 Dobzhansky could confidently declare, ‘Evolution is a change in the genetic composition of populations. The study of mechanisms of evolution falls within the province of population genetics.’ Thus, evolution was seen as a subset of the formal mathematics of population genetics…, and there was nothing in evolutionary biology that fell outside of it. One of the major tenets of the Modern Synthesis has been that of extrapolation: the phenomena of macroevolution, the evolution of species and higher taxa, are fully explained by the microevolutionary processes that gives [sic] rise to varieties within species. Macroevolution can be reduced to microevolution. That is, the origins of higher taxa can be explained by population genetics…” (p. 358)

The concept that macroevolution could not be derived from microevolution remained as an underground current in evolutionary theory. Every so often, it was brought to the surface by developmentally oriented evolutionary biologists such as Goldschmidt, Waddington, or de Beer… But these attempts to decouple microevolution from macroevolution were either ignored or marginalized (see Gilbert, 1994a). (p. 362)

Macroevolution was brought back as autonomous entity only after Eldredge and Gould (1972), Stanley (1979), and others postulated an alternative view to the gradualism that characterized the Modern Synthesis. By 1980, Gould claimed that the idea of ‘gradual alleleic [sic] substitution as a mode for all evolutionary change’ was effectively dead. This view did not go unchallenged, and by 1982, Gould’s view had become more specific. It wasn’t that the Modern Synthesis was wrong; rather, it was incomplete. ‘Nothing about microevolutionary population genetics, or any other aspect of microevolutionary theory, is wrong or inadequate at its level…. But it is not everything’… While punctuated equilibrium remained a controversial theory, it did bring to light the question of the autonomy of macroevolution. Indeed, the failure of microevolutionary biology to distinguish between punctuated equilibrium and gradualism demonstrated its weakness when applied to macroevolution…. Molecular studies… were similarly pointing to ‘evolution at two levels,’ one molecular, the other morphological. Thus, by the early 1980s, numerous paleontologists and evolutionary biologists (Gould, Stanley, Eldredge, Verba [sic, should be Vrba], and mostly critically, Ayala) came to the conclusion that although macroevolutionary phenomena were underlain by microevolutionary phenomena, the two areas were autonomous and that macroevolutionary processes could not be explained solely by microevolutionary events.” (p. 362)

– Scott F. Gilbert, John M. Opitz, and Rudolf A. Raff. 1996. “Resynthesizing Evolutionary and Developmental Biology.” Developmental Biology 173:357-372.

Thus Professor Tour’s public skepticism regarding whether macroevolution is merely an extrapolation of microevolution (as orthodox Darwinists have traditionally maintained) or whether it represents something fundamentally different, has some prominent scientific defenders. Mr. Matzke will doubtless point out that these anti-reductionist scientists were avowed evolutionists, whereas Professor Tour is not, and that’s perfectly true. In reply, I would argue that Tour has every right as a scientist to not only critique, on chemical grounds, the conventional view that macroevolution is merely microevolution writ large, but also to argue that the alternative evolutionary views put forward by scientists (such as Gould) who disagree with the orthodox Darwinian view are no less deficient, from a chemical standpoint.

In the Appendix at the end of my post, I’ve quoted the opinions of various scientists as to whether macroevolution can be regarded as merely an extension of microevolution. As the quotes below confirm, the standard view (espoused by Dawkins, Prothero and Coyne) is that macroevolution is indeed nothing more than microevolution writ large. This was what the proponents of the modern evolutionary synthesis maintained. Even de Beer and Eldredge can be cited in support of this view. Although there are some prominent scientific dissenters from the “standard” view (Gould, Lewin, Erwin, Carroll and Macneill), they seem to constitute a minority.

Nick Matzke’s scientific quarrel with Professor Tour

I’d now like to address the central point of contention between Professor Tour and biologist Nick Matzke. Matzke recently contended that Professor James Tour was making a huge category mistake in his demand for a chemical explanation of how macroevolution works. Matzke argued that Tour was trying to explain evolution at the wrong level, and lambasted Tour for “the entire bizarre, naive, and confused idea that explaining macroevolution is a matter of ‘chemistry’, when it is much more closely connected to ecology, biogeography, environmental change, natural selection, etc.” and then added,

“Now, if what he meant wasn’t ‘macroevolution’, but specifically the evolution of developmental systems, i.e. evo-devo – which is what those articles are about – then the request for ‘chemical details’ would make a tiny bit more sense, but it’s still bizarre.

Matzke concluded:

“What any serious student of the question would look at would be the homologies, genetics, mutations, selection pressures, and functional shifts involved in the origin of a particular structure. Pretending that it’s just ‘chemistry’ that is important, and chemistry only, is just weird. It’s some old-fashioned tidbit of reductionism adopted by someone who apparently can’t be bothered to learn the basics about a field before proclaiming it fallacious.”

Matzke is putting words into Professor Tour’s mouth here: nowhere does he claim that “it’s just ‘chemistry’ that is important, and chemistry only.” Nor has Tour ever espoused reductionism. Rather, what he insists is that macroevolutionary processes have to be describable at a chemical level. This certainly seems to be a reasonable request, and if Matzke thinks it isn’t, he should tell us why.

Nevertheless, I have to confess that when I first read Nick Matzke’s comments, I was rather perplexed. Could an eminent scientist such as Professor Tour have really made such an elementary mistake as the one which Matzke attributes to him? It seemed very unlikely.

I get mail from Spain

A few days ago, a very perceptive reader from Spain emailed me with an insightful comment. He pointed out that in a recent post on 15 February 2013, entitled, Is the genetic code a real code?, I had critiqued the view defended by Alan Fox, that the genetic code was not a real code, and that everything in the process of protein synthesis could be described in terms of strict chemistry, without the need to invoke a code in order to explain it. On Fox’s view, “DNA transcription and translation is a chemical chain of reactions that depends on the spatial conformation and inherent chemical properties of atoms and molecules.” Fox added that whenever scientists refer to a code, they are merely using a convenient shorthand:

I see no communicative element in the chemical processes that occur when DNA sequences are transcribed into RNA and translated into polypeptide sequences. It’s all a result of the inherent physical and chemical properties of the interacting molecules… To lump chemical processes in with aspects of linguistics is such a stretch that any set that encompasses both is large enough and fuzzy enough to be meaningless… At the cellular and sub-cellular level and consequently and cumulatively at the level of the organism there is a huge amount of communication going on. It is chemical communication… “Encode” could be used as a defined shorthand for some step in the chemical processes that go on in the cell, of course. Maybe there is a scientific definition in the context of biochemistry.

Now that’s reductionism for you. And it’s a form of reductionism espoused by many of Darwin’s defenders, when discussing the origin of life.

My reader from Spain then pointed out that if Fox’s reductionist view were true, then all bio-functional processes (including those that occur in evolution) would be reducible to chemistry, and evolution itself would be nothing but a series of transitions between different chemical processes. In that case, macroevolution would have to be ultimately explicable in terms of chemistry, and Professor Tour’s request that some scientist should be able to explain how it works at the chemical level would be an entirely legitimate one.

So it is surprising that Nick Matzke declares himself to be shocked, shocked, when a chemistry asks him to explain how macroevolution works at a chemical level, but does not bat an eyelid when his fellow Darwinists roundly assert that the origin of the genetic code can be explained at the chemical level. Is there an inconsistency here? It certainly seems so!

The only way in which Matzke could legitimately avoid Professor Tour’s demand for an explanation of how macroevolution works at the chemical level is by maintaining that the capacity to evolve, at the macro level (i.e. at the species level and above), is an emergent property of organisms which supervenes upon, but is not reducible to, their underlying biochemistry. In that case, there should be higher-level laws of Nature that explain how macroevolution works. Matzke would then be espousing a form of holism.

Does holism offer a way out for Matzke?

Now, I have no problem if Matzke wants to publicly endorse holism, in order to explain macroevolution. But I would then ask him: where are the scientific laws that explain how macroevolution works? At this point, we should recall Galileo’s dictum that the universe is written in the language of mathematics. If there are “higher-level” laws of macroevolution, then they have to be written in that language. Where’s the math?

Reading through the various definitions of macroevolution that assiduous readers on Uncommon Descent had managed to dig up from the scientific literature, my attention was drawn to the following comment made on Uncommon Descent back in 2006, by Cornell evolutionary biologist Allen Macneill, a man for whom I have the highest respect:

“In other words, microevolution (i.e. natural selection, genetic drift, and other processes that happen anagenetically at the population level) and macroevolution (i.e. extinction/adaptive radiation, genetic innovation, and symbiosis that happen cladogenetically at the species level and above) are in many ways fundamentally different processes with fundamentally different mechanisms. Furthermore, for reasons beyond the scope of this thread, macroevolution is probably not mathematically modelable in the way that microevolution has historically been.

– MacNeill, Allen, in a comment on “We is Junk” article by PaV at Uncommon Descent, November 10, 2006.

When I read that remark, I had an “Ah-ha!” moment. I realized then that the evidential case for macroevolution is like a house built on a foundation of sand.

Surprise! There’s no satisfactory mathematical model for macroevolution, at the present time

In 2006, Professor Allen Macneill acknowledged that macroevolution is not mathematically modelable in the way that microevolution is. He could have meant that macroevolution is not mathematically modelable at all; alternatively, he may have simply meant that macroevolutionary models are not as detailed as microevolutionary models. If he meant the latter, then I would ask: where’s the mathematics that explains macroevolution? Surprisingly, it turns out that there is currently no adequate mathematical model for Darwinian macroevolution. Professor James Tour’s remark that “The Emperor has no clothes” is spot-on.

Evolutionary biology has certainly been the subject of extensive mathematical theorizing. The overall name for this field is population genetics, or the study of allele frequency distribution and change under the influence of the four main evolutionary processes: natural selection, genetic drift, mutation and gene flow. Population genetics attempts to explain speciation within this framework. However, at the present time, there is no mathematical model – not even a “toy model” – showing that Darwin’s theory of macroevolution can even work, much less work within the time available. Darwinist mathematicians themselves have admitted as much.

In 2011, I had the good fortune to listen to a one-hour talk posted on Youtube, entitled, Life as Evolving Software. The talk was given by Professor Gregory Chaitin, a world-famous mathematician and computer scientist, at PPGC UFRGS (Portal do Programa de Pos-Graduacao em Computacao da Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Sul.Mestrado), in Brazil, on 2 May 2011. I was profoundly impressed by Professor Chaitin’s talk, because he was very honest and up-front about the mathematical shortcomings of the theory of evolution in its current form. As a mathematician who is committed to Darwinism, Chaitin is trying to create a new mathematical version of Darwin’s theory which proves that evolution can really work. He has recently written a book, Proving Darwin: Making Biology Mathematical (Random House, 2012, ISBN: 978-0-375-42314-7), which elaborates on his ideas.

Here are some excerpts from Chaitin’s talk, part of which I transcribed in my post, At last, a Darwinist mathematician tells the truth about evolution (November 6, 2011):

I’m trying to create a new field, and I’d like to invite you all to leap in, join [me] if you feel like it. I think we have a remarkable opportunity to create a kind of a theoretical mathematical biology

So let me tell you a little bit about this viewpoint … of biology which I think may enable us to create a new … mathematical version of Darwin’s theory, maybe even prove that evolution works for the skeptics who don’t believe it…

I don’t want evolution to stagnate, because as a pure mathematician, if the system evolves and it stops evolving, that’s like it never evolved at all… I want to prove that evolution can go on forever

OK, so software is everywhere there, and what I want to do is make a theory about randomly evolving, mutating and evolving software – a little toy model of evolution where I can prove theorems, because I love Darwin’s theory, I have nothing against it, but, you know, it’s just an empirical theory. As a pure mathematician, that’s not good enough

… John Maynard Smith is saying that we define life as something that evolves according to Darwin’s theory of evolution. Now this may seem that it’s totally circular reasoning, but it’s not. It’s not that kind of reasoning, because the whole point, as a pure mathematician, is to prove that there is something in the world of pure math that satisfies this definition – you know, to invent a mathematical life-form in the Pythagorean world that I can prove actually does evolve according to Darwin’s theory, and to prove that there is something which satisfies this definition of being alive. And that will be at least a proof that in some toy model, Darwin’s theory of evolution works – which I regard as the first step in developing this as a theory, this viewpoint of life as evolving software….

…I want to know what is the simplest thing I need mathematically to show that evolution by natural selection works on it? You see, so this will be the simplest possible life form that I can come up with….

The first thing I … want to see is: how fast will this system evolve? How big will the fitness be? How big will the number be that these organisms name? How quickly will they name the really big numbers? So how can we measure the rate of evolutionary progress, or mathematical creativity of my little mathematicians, these programs? Well, the way to measure the rate of progress, or creativity, in this model, is to define a thing called the Busy Beaver function. One way to define it is the largest fitness of any program of N bits in size. It’s the biggest whole number without a sign that can be calculated if you could name it, with a program of N bits in size….

So what happens if we do that, which is sort of cumulative random evolution, the real thing? Well, here’s the result. You’re going to reach Busy Beaver function N in a time that is – you can estimate it to be between order of N squared and order of N cubed. Actually this is an upper bound. I don’t have a lower bound on this. This is a piece of research which I would like to see somebody do – or myself for that matter – but for now it’s just an upper bound. OK, so what does this mean? This means, I will put it this way. I was very pleased initially with this.

Table:
Exhaustive search reaches fitness BB(N) in time 2^N.
Intelligent Design reaches fitness BB(N) in time N. (That’s the fastest possible regime.)
Random evolution reaches fitness BB(N) in time between N^2 and N^3.

This means that picking the mutations at random is almost as good as picking them the best possible way…

But I told a friend of mine … about this result. He doesn’t like Darwinian evolution, and he told me, “Well, you can look at this the other way if you want. This is actually much too slow to justify Darwinian evolution on planet Earth. And if you think about it, he’s right… If you make an estimate, the human genome is something on the order of a gigabyte of bits. So it’s … let’s say a billion bits – actually 6 x 10^9 bits, I think it is, roughly – … so we’re looking at programs up to about that size [here he points to N^2 on the slide] in bits, and N is about of the order of a billion, 10^9, and the time, he said … that’s a very big number, and you would need this to be linear, for this to have happened on planet Earth, because if you take something of the order of 10^9 and you square it or you cube it, well … forget it. There isn’t enough time in the history of the Earth … Even though it’s fast theoretically, it’s too slow to work. He said, “You really need something more or less linear.” And he has a point…

Professor Chaitin’s point here is that if even a process of intelligently guided evolution takes, say, one billion years (1,000,000,000 years) to reach its goal, then an unguided process of cumulative random evolution (i.e. Darwin’s theory) will take one billion times one billion years to reach the same goal, or 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 years. That’s one quintillion years. The problem here should be obvious: the Earth is less than five billion years old, and even the universe is less than 14 billion years old.

Debunking a popular myth: ”There’s plenty of time for evolution”

At this point, I imagine Matzke will want to cite a 2010 paper in Proceedings of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences (PNAS), titled “There’s plenty of time for evolution” by Herbert S. Wilf and Warren J. Ewens, a biologist and a mathematician at the University of Pennsylvania. Although it does not refer to them by name, there’s little doubt that Wilf and Ewens intended their work to respond to the arguments put forward by intelligent-design proponents, since it declares in its first paragraph:

…One of the main objections that have been raised holds that there has not been enough time for all of the species complexity that we see to have evolved by random mutations. Our purpose here is to analyze this process, and our conclusion is that when one takes account of the role of natural selection in a reasonable way, there has been ample time for the evolution that we observe to have taken place.

Evolutionary biologist Professor Jerry Coyne praised the paper, saying that it provides “one step towards dispelling the idea that Darwinian evolution works too slowly to account for the diversity of life on Earth today.” Famous last words.

A 2012 paper, Time and Information in Evolution, by Winston Ewert, Ann Gauger, William Dembski and Robert Marks II, contains a crushing refutation of Wilf and Ewens’ claim that there’s plenty of time for evolution to occur. The authors of the new paper offer a long list of reasons why Wilf and Ewens’ model of evolution isn’t biologically realistic:

Wilf and Ewens argue in a recent paper that there is plenty of time for evolution to occur. They base this claim on a mathematical model in which beneficial mutations accumulate simultaneously and independently, thus allowing changes that require a large number of mutations to evolve over comparatively short time periods. Because changes evolve independently and in parallel rather than sequentially, their model scales logarithmically rather than exponentially. This approach does not accurately reflect biological evolution, however, for two main reasons. First, within their model are implicit information sources, including the equivalent of a highly informed oracle that prophesies when a mutation is “correct,” thus accelerating the search by the evolutionary process. Natural selection, in contrast, does not have access to information about future benefits of a particular mutation, or where in the global fitness landscape a particular mutation is relative to a particular target. It can only assess mutations based on their current effect on fitness in the local fitness landscape. Thus the presence of this oracle makes their model radically different from a real biological search through fitness space. Wilf and Ewens also make unrealistic biological assumptions that, in effect, simplify the search. They assume no epistasis between beneficial mutations, no linkage between loci, and an unrealistic population size and base mutation rate, thus increasing the pool of beneficial mutations to be searched. They neglect the effects of genetic drift on the probability of fixation and the negative effects of simultaneously accumulating deleterious mutations. Finally, in their model they represent each genetic locus as a single letter. By doing so, they ignore the enormous sequence complexity of actual genetic loci (typically hundreds or thousands of nucleotides long), and vastly oversimplify the search for functional variants. In similar fashion, they assume that each evolutionary “advance” requires a change to just one locus, despite the clear evidence that most biological functions are the product of multiple gene products working together. Ignoring these biological realities infuses considerable active information into their model and eases the model’s evolutionary process.

After reading this devastating refutation of Wilf and Ewens’ 2012 paper, I think it would be fair to conclude that we don’t currently have an adequate mathematical model explaining how macroevolution can occur at all, let alone one showing that it can take place within the time available. Four billion years might sound like a long time, but if your model requires not billions, but quintillions of years for it to work, then obviously, your model of macroevolution isn’t mathematically up to scratch.

Debunking another popular myth: “The eye could have evolved in a relatively short period.”

Parts of the eye: 1. vitreous body 2. ora serrata 3. ciliary muscle 4. ciliary zonules 5. canal of Schlemm 6. pupil 7. anterior chamber 8. cornea 9. iris 10. lens cortex 11. lens nucleus 12. ciliary process 13. conjunctiva 14. inferior oblique muscle 15. inferior rectus muscle 16. medial rectus muscle 17. retinal arteries and veins 18. optic disc 19. dura mater 20. central retinal artery 21. central retinal vein 22. optic nerve 23. vorticose vein 24. bulbar sheath 25. macula 26. fovea 27. sclera 28. choroid 29. superior rectus muscle 30. retina. Image courtesy of Chabacano and Wikipedia.

In 1994, Dan-Erik Nilsson and Susanne Pelger of Lund University in Sweden wrote a paper entitled, A Pessimistic Estimate of the Time Required for an Eye to Evolve (Proceedings: Biological Sciences, Vol. 256, No. 1345, April 22 1994, pp. 53-58) in which they cautiously estimated the time required for a fully-developed lens eye to develop from a light-sensitive spot to be no more than 360,000 years or so.

In 2003, the mathematician David Berlinski wrote an incisive critique of this outlandish claim. (See here for Nilsson’s response.) Some of Berlinski’s contentions turned out to be based on a misunderstanding of Nilsson and Pelger’s data, but Berlinski scored significantly when he pointed out that Nilsson and Pelger’s paper was lacking in the mathematical details one might expect in support of their claim that the eye took only 360,000 years to evolve:

Nilsson and Pelger’s paper contains no computer simulation, and no computer simulation has been forthcoming from them in all the years since its initial publication…

There are two equations in Nilsson and Pelger’s paper, and neither requires a computer for its solution; and there are no others.

Indeed, Nilsson had even admitted as much, in correspondence with Berlinski:

You are right that my article with Pelger is not based on computer simulation of eye evolution. I do not know of anyone else who [has] successfully tried to make such a simulation either. But we are currently working on it.”

That was in 2001. As far as I am aware, no simulation has since been forthcoming from Nilsson and Pelger, although as we’ll see below, a genetic algorithm developed by an Israeli researcher in 2007 demonstrated that their model was based on wildly optimistic assumptions about evolutionary pathways.

In the meantime, Nilsson and Pelger’s 1994 paper has been gleefully cited by evolutionary biologists as proof that the origin of complex structures is mathematically modelable. Here is how Professor Jerry Coyne describes Nilsson and Pelger’s work in his book, Why Evolution Is True:

We can, starting with a simple precursor, actually model the evolution of the eye and see whether selection can turn that precursor into a more complex eye within a reasonable amount of time. Dan Nilsson and Susanne Pelger of Lund University in Sweden made such a mathematical model, starting with a patch of light-sensitive cells backed by a pigment layer (a retina). They then allowed the tissues around this structure to deform themselves randomly, limiting the amount of change to only 1% of size or thickness at each step. To mimic natural selection, the model accepted only mutations that improved the visual acuity, and rejected those that degraded it.

Within an amazingly short time, the model yielded a complex eye, going through stages similar to the real-animal series described above. The eyes folded inward to form a cup, the cup became capped with a transparent surface, and the interior of the cup gelled to form not only a lens, but a lens with dimensions that produced the best possible image.

Beginning with a flatworm-like eyespot, then, the model produced something like the complex eye of vertebrates, all through a series of tiny adaptive steps – 1,829 of them, to be exact. But Nilsson and Pelget could also calculate how long this process would take. To do this, they made some assumptions about how much genetic variation for eye shape existed in the population that began experiencing selection, and how strongly selection would favor each useful step in eye size. These assumptions were deliberately conservative, assuming that there were reasonable but not large amounts of genetic variation and that natural selection was very weak. Nevertheless, the eye evolved very quickly: the entire process from rudimentary light-patch to camera eye took fewer than 400,000 years.

– Coyne, Jerry A. Why Evolution Is True. 2009. Oxford University Press, p. 155.

I’d like to point out here that Coyne’s starry-eyed description of Nilsson and Pelger’s research overlooks a vital point raised by Professor Michael Behe in his article, Molecular Machines: Experimental Support for the Design Inference. Readers will recall that Behe declared:

The relevant steps in biological processes occur ultimately at the molecular level, so a satisfactory explanation of a biological phenomenon such as sight, or digestion, or immunity, must include a molecular explanation. It is no longer sufficient, now that the black box of vision has been opened, for an ‘evolutionary explanation’ of that power to invoke only the anatomical structures of whole eyes, as Darwin did in the 19th century and as most popularizers of evolution continue to do today. Anatomy is, quite simply, irrelevant.”

Nilsson and Pelger’s mathematical calculations addressed the evolution of the eye’s anatomy, but they said nothing about the underlying biochemistry. Using Behe’s criteria, we can see at once that their macroevolutionary model of the evolution of the eye is a failure. Professor James Tour would dismiss it on similar grounds. He would doubtless ask, rhetorically: “Does anyone understand the chemical details behind the macroevolution of the eye?” I hope that Nick Matzke will now concede that this is a reasonable question.

A more skeptical assessment of Nilsson and Pelger’s 1994 paper can be found in an online applied physics thesis by Dov Rhodes, entitled, Approximating the Evolution Time of the Eye: A Genetic Algorithms Approach. The thesis makes for fascinating reading. I shall quote a few brief excerpts:

“A paper published in 1994 by the Swedish scientists Nilsson and Pelger [6] gained immediate worldwide fame for describing the evolution process for an eye, and approximating the time required for an eye to evolve from a simple patch that sense electromagnetic radiation. Nilsson and Pelger (NP) outlined an evolutionary path, where by minute improvements on each step a cameratype eye can evolve in approximately 360,000 years, which is extremely fast on an evolutionary time scale… (p. 1)

The main problem with the NP model is that although the evolutionary path that it describes might be a legitimate one, it neglects consideration for divergent paths. It is easy to construct a situation in which the best temporary option for the improvement of an eye does not lead towards the development of the globally optimal solution. This idea motivates our alternative approach, the method of genetic algorithms. In this paper we use the genetic algorithm with a simplified (2-dimensional) version of NP’s setup and show the error in their approach. We argue that if their approach is mistaken in the simplified model, it is even farther from reality in the full evolutionary setting. (p. 2)

“Although the paraboloid landscape guarantees convergence, the GA is still a probabilistic algorithm and thus will not always converge quickly. As in evolution, the most efficient path is not necessarily the one taken. This fact suggests that our already conservative value of lambda = 5.41 would be even larger if compared with a real deterministic algorithm such as the NP (Nilsson-Pelger) model. Even though their computation accounts to some extent for the average probability of evolutionary development over time, it fails to consider the countless different evolutionary paths, and instead chooses just one.

“Rather than 360 thousand generations, a reasonable lower bound should be at least 5*360,000 = 1.8*10^6 generations, and if our previous speculations have merit, an order of magnitude higher would ramp up the estimate to around 18 million generations. Future experiments that would be useful for improving the accuracy of our results might involve varying the mutation parameter, and most importantly letting algorithms run for longer, allowing the lower bound for convergence to be pushed even higher.” (p. 15)

What Rhodes’ paper demonstrates is that the 1994 estimate by Nilsson and Pelger of how long it took the eye to evolve is more like a case of intelligently guided evolution than Darwinian evolution. As Rhodes puts it: “Even though their computation accounts to some extent for the average probability of evolutionary development over time, it fails to consider the countless different evolutionary paths, and instead chooses just one.”

Why the evidence for unguided Darwinian macroevolution is like a house built on a foundation of sand

We have seen that there’s curently no good theory that can serve as an adequate model for Darwinian macroevolution – even at a “holistic” level. As we saw, Professor Gregory Chaitin’s toy models don’t go down to the chemical level requested by Professor James Tour, but these models have failed to validate Darwin’s theory of evolution, or even show that it could work.

At this point, there is an alternative line that Matzke might want to take. He could claim that macroevolution is ultimately explicable in terms of bottom-level laws and physical processes, but that unfortunately, scientists haven’t discovered what they are yet. From a theoretical perspective, reductionism would then be true after all, and the chemical explanation of macroevolution demanded by Professor Tour could be given. From a practical standpoint, however, it would be impossible for scientists to provide such an explanation within the foreseeable future.

If Matzke wishes to take this road, then he is tacitly admitting that scientists don’t yet know either the scientific laws (which are written in the language of mathematics) or the physical processes that ultimately explain and drive macroevolution. But if they don’t know either of these, then I would ask him: why should we believe that it actually occurs? After all, mathematics, scientific laws and observed processes are supposed to form the basis of all scientific explanation. If none of these provides support for Darwinian macroevolution, then why on earth should we accept it? Indeed, why does macroevolution belong in the province of science at all, if its scientific basis cannot be demonstrated?

Are there any good scientific parallels to the lack of evidence for macroevolution?

At this point in the discussion, Darwinists will often cite two historical illustrations to support their claim that belief in macroevolution can still be reasonable, even if we currently lack a mathematical model for it. The two examples they love to mention are continental drift (the mechanism of which remained an unsolved mystery, long after good empirical evidence supporting it was discovered by scientists) and gravity (the theoretical basis of which is still not fully understood by scientists, although it is currently regarded as a curvature in the fabric of spacetime).

However, the analogy with continental drift is a poor one. After all, the process of continental drift can be observed and measured, and there is no micro/macro distinction. Extrapolate continental movements back 200 million years in time, and you end up with the super-continent of Pangaea.

Nor will gravity save the evolutionist: it can be described mathematically (e.g. by Newton’s law of universal gravitation, F = G.(m1.m2)/r^2), even if its physical basis remains mysterious.

Matzke: but macroevolution can be demonstrated! –

In a comment on my recent thread, A world-famous chemist tells the truth: there’s no scientist alive today who understands macroevolution, Nick Matzke stoutly maintained that there’s plenty of observational evidence for macroevolution:

Dog breeds and many other domestic plants and animals have morphological differences much larger than the “macroevolutionary” differences typically seen between species in a genus or even family. Cue excuse for not accepting the evidence you JUST requested in 3, 2, 1…

OK, Nick. Here’s my excuse. There’s a saying that a picture is worth a thousand words. Here’s a photo of the skeleton of a Great Dane, next to a Chihuahua:

Apart from size, there’s not much of a difference in the skeletons, is there?

“What about a human being and a great ape?” you might ask. Here’s another picture, showing a human skeleton and a gorilla skeleton. Not so similar, are they?

Chimpanzees and gorillas are man’s closest living relatives. The anatomical differences between humans and chimpanzees, which are quite extensive, are conveniently summarized in a handout prepared by Anthropology Professor Claud A. Ramblett the University of Texas, entitled, Primate Anatomy. Anyone who thinks that a series of random stepwise mutations, culled by the non-random but unguided process of natural selection, can account for the anatomical differences between humans and chimpanzees, should read this article very carefully. What it reveals is that an entire ensuite of changes, relating to the skull, teeth, vertebrae, thorax, shoulder, arms, hands, pelvis, legs and feet, not to mention the rate of skeletal maturation and method of locomotion, would have been required, in order to transform the common ancestor of humans and chimps into creatures like ourselves. Given the sheer diversity of changes that would have been required, it is surely reasonable to ask whether an unguided process, such as Darwinian macroevolution, could have accomplished this feat over a period of a few million years.

It is often claimed that neoteny accounts for many of the anatomical differences between human beings and great apes, and that humans resemble juvenile apes. Readers will be able to see how nonsensical this view is, by examining the following photo (WARNING: this may upset some viewers) of a baby human skeleton alongside a baby chimpanzee skeleton. Even at a young age, the differences between the two species are marked. I would invite readers to look at the skull, the rib cage, the pelvis, the arm bones and leg bones, and the hands and feet, and judge for themselves.

Now, I happen to accept the common ancestry of humans and chimpanzees, although I’d also like to point out that it’s illogical to infer from the fact that a change is known to have occurred in the past that the change in question occurred as a result of physical processes that are known to us today. We don’t know that. Common descent is one thing; common descent as a result of Darwinian natural selection is quite another.

I’d also be inclined to agree with Nick Matzke’s claim that Homo erectus (broadly defined, to include Homo ergaster) is a direct ancestor of modern Homo sapiens, although I should point out in passing that evolutionary biologist Professor Coyne is far more circumspect when he writes of Homo erectus: “It may, though, have left two famous descendants: H. heidelbergensis and H. neanderthalensis, known respectively as “archaic H. sapiens” and the famous ‘Neanderthal man.’” But even if we compare Homo erectus (who had a smaller brain than that of modern humans, but who was virtually identical with us from the neck down) with modern Homo sapiens, the neurological differences are quite profound. There were changes in the prefrontal cortex that took place about 700,000 years ago, with the emergence of Homo heidelbergensis (Heidelberg man), which enabled long-term planning and inhibitory control, making self-sacrifice for the good of the group and life-long monogamy possible. Later on, there were also changes in the temporoparietal cortex, with the emergence of modern Homo sapiens, about 200,000 years ago, making possible the emergence of art, symbolism and religious rituals. Readers can learn more about these changes (which I’ll be writing about in a future post) in the following two articles:

Paleolithic public goods games: why human culture and cooperation did not evolve in one step by Benoit Dubreuil, in Biology and Philosophy (2010) 25:53–73, DOI 10.1007/s10539-009-9177-7.

The First Appearance of Symmetry in the Human Lineage: where Perception meets Art (careful: large file!) by Dr. Derek Hodgson. In Symmetry, 2011, 3, 37-53; doi:10.3390/3010037

Just as with vision, the changes required to enlarge the prefrontal cortex and the temporoparietal cortex in modern man had to be realized at the molecular level. There’s no escaping the nitty-gritty: if we’re going to explain how modern man got his brain, we’re going to have to supply the chemical details as well as genetic and anatomical details.

The necessary changes in the brains of our hominid ancestors which allowed human beings, in the true sense of the word, to emerge, were not trivial ones, and they were not merely a matter of “scaling up” a more primitive brain. We also forget that the human brain is the most complex machine known in the universe. We know that random changes plus non-random “selection” are not enough by themselves to create a pattern or a function – such as the function of being able to engage in long-term planning and inhibitory control, which characterized Heidelberg man, who emerged 700,000 years ago. As Professor William Dembski puts it in his essay, Conservation of Information Made Simple:

It’s easy to write computer simulations that feature selection, replication, and mutation (or SURVIVAL writ large, or differential survival and reproduction, or any such reduction of evolution to Darwinian principles) – and that go absolutely nowhere. Taken together, selection, replication, and mutation are not a magic bullet, and need not solve any interesting problems or produce any salient patterns.

If someone wants to argue that random copying errors plus non-random death are sufficient to make a brain with new cognitive abilities, I shall demand evidence before I believe such a claim. At the very least, I’d like a plausible sequence of genetic changes relating to the development of the human brain, that could have transformed an Australopithecus into Homo erectus and finally modern man, without the need for intelligent guidance..

In his online essay, 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution, Dr. Douglas Theobald, makes some truly outlandish statements about evolutionary change:

A more recent paper evaluating the evolutionary rate in guppies in the wild found rates ranging from 4000 to 45,000 darwins (Reznick 1997). [A darwin is a unit of evolutionary change – VJT.] Note that a sustained rate of “only” 400 darwins is sufficient to transform a mouse into an elephant in a mere 10,000 years (Gingerich 1983).

One of the most extreme examples of rapid evolution was when the hominid cerebellum doubled in size within ~100,000 years during the Pleistocene (Rightmire 1985). This “unique and staggering” acceleration in evolutionary rate was only 7 darwins (Williams 1992, p. 132). This rate converts to a minuscule 0.02% increase per generation, at most. For comparison, the fastest rate observed in the fossil record in the Gingerich study was 37 darwins over one thousand years, and this corresponds to, at most, a 0.06% change per generation.

I hope that by now, readers can see how naive that kind of argument is. Professor Tour is right: anatomical explanations are not enough. We do need to look at the underlying chemistry.

APPENDIX: What scientists say about the relation between macroevolution and microevolution

(a) Scientific authorities who SUPPORT the view that macroevolution is just an extrapolation of microevolution, over long periods of time

“Along with the reductionist attitude that organisms are nothing more than vessels to carry their genes came the extrapolation that the tiny genetic and phenotypic changes observed in fruit flies and lab rats were sufficient to explain all of evolution. This defines all evolution as microevolution, the gradual and tiny changes that cause different wing veins in a fruit fly or a slightly longer tail in a rat. From this, Neo-Darwinism extrapolates all larger evolutionary changes (macroevolution) as just microevolution writ large. These central tenets – reductionism, panselectionism, extrapolationism, and gradualism – were central to the Neo-Darwinian orthodoxy of the 1940s and 1950s and are still followed by the majority of evolutionary biologists today.

– Prothero, Donald R. Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters. 2007. Cited by Mung here.

“Many who reject darwinism on religious grounds . . . argue that such small changes [as seen in selective breeding] cannot explain the evolution of new groups of plants and animals. This argument defies common sense. When, after a Christmas visit, we watch grandma leave on the train to Miami, we assume that the rest of her journey will be an extrapolation of that first quarter-mile. A creationist unwilling to extrapolate from micro- to macroevolution is as irrational as an observer who assumes that, after grandma’s train disappears around the bend, it is seized by divine forces and instantly transported to Florida.”

– Coyne, Jerry A. 2001 (Aug 19). Nature 412:587. Cited by Richard Peachey here.

“…we shouldn’t expect to see more than small changes in one or a few features of a species – what is known as microevolutionary change. Given the gradual pace of evolution, it’s unreasonable to expect to see selection transforming one “type” of plant or animal to another – so-called macroevolution – within a human lifetime. Though macroevolution is occurring today, we simply won’t be around long enough to see it. Remember that the issue is not whether macroevolutionary change happens – we already know from the fossil record that it does – but whether it was caused by natural selection, and whether natural selection can build complex features and organisms.”

– Coyne, Jerry A. Why Evolution Is True. 2009. Oxford University Press, p. 144. Cited by Mung here.

“So where are we? We know that a process very like natural selection – animal and plant breeding – has taken the genetic variation present in wild species and from it created huge “evolutionary” transformations. We know that these transformations can be much larger, and faster, than real evolutionary change that took place in the past. We’ve seen that selection operates in the laboratory, in microorganisms that cause disease, and in the wild. We know of no adaptations that absolutely could not have been molded by natural selection, and in many cases we can plausibly infer how selection did mold them. And mathematical models show that natural selection can produce complex features easily and quickly. The obvious conclusion: we can provisionally assume that natural selection is the cause of all adaptive evolution – though not of every feature of evolution, since genetic drift can also play a role.

“True, breeders haven’t turned a cat into a dog, and laboratory studies haven’t turned a bacterium into an amoeba (although, as we’ve seen, new bacterial species have arisen in the lab). But it is foolish to think that these are serious objections to natural selection. Big transformations take time – huge spans of it. To really see the power of selection, we must extrapolate the small changes that selection creates in our lifetime over the millions of years that it has really had to work in nature.”

– Coyne, Jerry A. Why Evolution Is True. 2009. Oxford University Press, p. 155.

The claim that microevolution can’t be extrapolated to macroevolution is ubiquitous among ID advocates and the creationists who preceded them…. it is nothing more than standard creation science terminology for the creationist claim that various groups of organisms were specially created by God, with specified limits on how far they could change over time.”

– Matzke, N. and Gross, P., 2006, here.

For biologists, then, the microevolution/macroevolution distinction is a matter of scale of analysis, and not some ill-defined level of evolutionary “newness.” Studies that examine evolution at a coarse scale of analysis are also macroevolutionary studies, because they are typically looking at multiple species – separate branches on the evolutionary tree. Evolution within a single twig on the tree, by contrast, is microevolution.”

– Matzke, N., and Gross, P. (2006). “Analyzing Critical Analysis: The Fallback Antievolutionist Strategy.” Chapter 2 of Not in Our Classrooms: Why Intelligent Design is Wrong for Our Schools. Scott, E., and Branch, G., eds., Beacon Press, pp. 49-50. Cited by Nick Matzke here.

“I was not prepared to find creationists . . . actually accepting the [peppered] moths as examples of small-scale evolution by natural selection! . . . That, to my mind, is tantamount to conceding the entire issue, for . . . there is utter continuity in evolutionary processes from the smallest scales (microevolution) up through the largest scales (macroevolution).”

– Eldredge, N. 2000. The Triumph of Evolution. New York: W.H. Freeman and Co. p. 119. (cf. pp. 62, 66, 76, 88). Cited by Richard Peachey here.

“… there is no justification for dismissing the selective and genetic mechanism responsible for the change from grey to black in [peppered] moths as incapable of producing new organs… there are no grounds for doubting that the mechanism of selection and mutation that has adaptively turned grey moths black in 100 years has been adequate to achieve evolutionary changes that have taken place during hundreds and thousands of millions of years.”

– De Beer, G. 1964. Atlas of Evolution. London: Nelson. pp. 93f. Cited by Richard Peachey here.

“Most sceptics about natural selection are prepared to accept that it can bring about minor changes like the dark coloration that has evolved in various species of moth since the industrial revolution. But, having accepted this, they then point out how small a change this is. … But… the moths only took a hundred years to make their change…. just think about the time involved.

– Dawkins, R. 1986. The Blind Watchmaker. New York: W.W. Norton & Co. p. 40. Cited by Richard Peachey here.

(b) Scientists who are UNDECIDED on whether macroevolution is explicable in terms of microevolution

One of the oldest problems in evolutionary biology remains largely unsolved; Historically, the neo-Darwinian synthesizers stressed the predominance of micromutations in evolution, whereas others noted the similarities between some dramatic mutations and evolutionary transitions to argue for macromutationism.”

– Stern, David L. Perspective: Evolutionary Developmental Biology and the Problem of Variation, Evolution, 2000, 54, 1079-1091. A contribution from the University of Cambridge.

A persistent debate in evolutionary biology is one over the continuity of microevolution and macroevolution – whether macroevolutionary trends are governed by the principles of microevolution.”

– Simons, Andrew M. The Continuity of Microevolution and Macroevolution Journal of Evolutionary Biology, 2002, 15, 688-701. A contribution from Carleton University.

“A long-standing issue in evolutionary biology is whether the processes observable in extant populations and species (microevolution) are sufficient to account for the larger-scale changes evident over longer periods of life’s history (macroevolution). Outsiders to this rich literature may be surprised that there is no consensus on this issue, and that strong viewpoints are held at both ends of the spectrum, with many undecided.”

– Carroll, Sean B. 2001 (Feb 8). Nature 409:669. Cited by Richard Peachey here.

“Most professional biologists today think of microevolution as evolution within species and of macroevolution as what happens over time to differentiate species or ‘higher’ groups of organisms (genera, families, etc.)….

“The reason I think creationists, and the public at large, are not well served by scientists in this case is because few evolutionary biologists talk to the public to begin with, and when they are confronted with the micro/macro question, they simply accuse creationists of making up such a distinction and move on. What they (we) should say is that there is indeed genuine disagreement among professional biologists about the meaningfulness of the concept, and even those who agree that there is something to it are still trying to figure out an explanation.

– Massimo Pigliucci, “Is There Such a Thing as Macroevolution?” Skeptical Inquirer 31(2):18,19, March/April, 2007. Pigliucci is a prominent professor of evolutionary biology and philosophy.
(Cited by Richard Peachey here.)

(c) Scientific authorities who REJECT the view that macroevolution is merely an extrapolation of microevolution

“PaV asked:

Do the “engines of variation” provide sufficient variation to move beyond microevolution to macroevolution.”

“This is indeed the central question. One of the central tenets of the “modern synthesis of evolutionary biology” as celebrated in 1959 was the idea that macroevolution and microevolution were essentially the same process. That is, macroevolution was simply microevolution extrapolated over deep evolutionary time, using the same mechanisms and with essentially the same effects.

A half century of research into macroevolution has shown that this is probably not the case. In particular, macroevolutionary events (such as the splitting of a single species into two or more, a process known as cladogenesis) do not necessarily take a long time at all. Indeed, in plants it can take as little as a single generation. We have observed the origin of new species of rose, primroses, trees, and all sorts of plants by genetic processes, such as allopolyploidy and autopolyploidy. Indeed, most of the cultivated roses so beloved of gardeners are new species of roses that originated spontaneously as the result of chromosomal rearrangements, which rose fanciers then exploited.

The real problem, therefore, is explaining cladogenesis in animals. As Lynn Margulis has repeatedly pointed out, animals have a unique mechanism of sexual reproduction and development, one that apparently makes the kinds of chromosomal events that are common in plants very difficult in animals.

“However, she has proposed an alternative mechanism for cladogenesis in animals, based on the acquisition and fusion of genomes. Research into such mechanisms has only just begun, but has already been shown to explain the origin of eukaryotes via the fusion of disparate lines of prokaryotes, plus the origin of several species of animals and plants as the result of genome acquisition. As Lynn has been extraordinarily successful in the past in proposing testable mechanisms for macroevolutionary changes, I look forward to many more discoveries in this field.”

– MacNeill, Allen. comment on “We is Junk” article by PaV at Uncommon Descent, 2006.

“In other words, microevolution (i.e. natural selection, genetic drift, and other processes that happen anagenetically at the population level) and macroevolution (i.e. extinction/adaptive radiation, genetic innovation, and symbiosis that happen cladogenetically at the species level and above) are in many ways fundamentally different processes with fundamentally different mechanisms. Furthermore, for reasons beyond the scope of this thread, macroevolution is probably not mathematically modelable in the way that microevolution has historically been.

– MacNeill, Allen. comment on “We is Junk” article by PaV at Uncommon Descent, 2006.

Abstract

“Arguments over macroevolution versus microevolution have waxed and waned through most of the twentieth century. Initially, paleontologists and other evolutionary biologists advanced a variety of non-Darwinian evolutionary processes as explanations for patterns found in the fossil record, emphasizing macroevolution as a source of morphologic novelty. Later, paleontologists, from Simpson to Gould, Stanley, and others, accepted the primacy of natural selection but argued that rapid speciation produced a discontinuity between micro- and macroevolution. This second phase emphasizes the sorting of innovations between species. Other discontinuities appear in the persistence of trends (differential success of species within clades), including species sorting, in the differential success between clades and in the origination and establishment of evolutionary novelties. These discontinuities impose a hierarchical structure to evolution and discredit any smooth extrapolation from allelic substitution to large-scale evolutionary patterns. Recent developments in comparative developmental biology suggest a need to reconsider the possibility that some macroevolutionary discontinuites may be associated with the origination of evolutionary innovation. The attractiveness of macroevolution reflects the exhaustive documentation of large-scale patterns which reveal a richness to evolution unexplained by microevolution. If the goal of evolutionary biology is to understand the history of life, rather than simply document experimental analysis of evolution, studies from paleontology, phylogenetics, developmental biology, and other fields demand the deeper view provided by macroevolution.

– Erwin, Douglas H. Macroevolution is more than repeated rounds of microevolution. Evolution and Development, 2000, Mar-Apr;2(2):78-84.

“… large-scale evolutionary phenomena cannot be understood solely on the basis of extrapolation from processes observed at the level of modern populations and species… The most conspicuous event in metazoan evolution was the dramatic origin of major new structures and body plans documented by the Cambrian explosion… The extreme speed of anatomical change and adaptive radiation during this brief time period requires explanations that go beyond those proposed for the evolution of species within the modern biota… This explosive evolution of phyla with diverse body plans is certainly not explicable by extrapolation from the processes and rates of evolution observed in modern species…”

– Carroll, Robert. 2000 (Jan). Trends in Ecology and Evolution 15(1):27f. Cited by Richard Peachey here.

“… biologists have documented a veritable glut of cases for rapid and eminently measurable evolution on timescales of years and decades… to be visible at all over so short a span, evolution must be far too rapid (and transient) to serve as the basis for major transformations in geological time. Hence, the ‘paradox of the visibly irrelevant’ – or, if you can see it at all, it’s too fast to matter in the long run… These shortest-term studies are elegant and important, but they cannot represent the general mode for building patterns in the history of life… Thus, if we can measure it at all (in a few years), it is too powerful to be the stuff of life’s history… [Widely publicized cases such as beak size changes in ‘Darwin’s finches’] represent transient and momentary blips and fillips that ‘flesh out’ the rich history of lineages in stasis, not the atoms of substantial and steadily accumulated evolutionary trends… One scale doesn’t translate into another.

– Gould, Stephen J. 1998 (Jan). Natural History 106(11):12, 14, 64. Cited by Richard Peachey here.

“If macroevolution is, as I believe, mainly a story of the differential success of certain kinds of species and, if most species change little in the phyletic mode during the course of their existence (Gould and Eldredge, 1977), then microevolutionary change within populations is not the stuff (by extrapolation) of major transformations.

– Gould, Stephen J., in Ernst Mayr and William B. Provine, The Evolutionary Synthesis: Perspectives on the Unification of Biology (Harvard University Press paperback, 1998; originally published in 1980), p. 170. Cited by Richard Peachey here.

“A wide spectrum of researchers – ranging from geologists and paleontologists, through ecologists and population geneticists, to embryologists and molecular biologists – gathered at Chicago’s Field Museum of Natural History under the simple conference title: Macroevolution. Their task was to consider the mechanisms that underlie the origin of species and the evolutionary relationship between species… The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms underlying microevolution can be extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some of the people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear, No.

– Lewin, R. 1980 (Nov 21). Science 210:883. Cited by Richard Peachey here.

“What you are trying to argue, in a very confused way, is that you have some kind of problem with the statement that macroevolution is “just” microevolution over large amounts of time. Well, lots of people have a problem with this claim, including me – it’s rather like saying microeconomics can be simply scaled up to produce macroeconomics. Or that the ecology of a single field experiment can be scaled up to explain the macroecology of the Amazonian rainforest.”

– Matzke, Nicholas J., here.

Has anyone else noticed that Matzke falls into camps (a) and (c)?

Comments
As a side note to this, recently bacteria surprised scientists by their ability to quickly detoxify the millions of barrels of oil spilled in the Gulf of Mexico:
Deepwater Oil Plume in Gulf Degraded by Microbes, Study Shows Excerpt: An intensive study by scientists with the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) found that microbial activity degrades oil much faster than anticipated. This degradation appears to take place without a significant level of oxygen depletion. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100824132349.htm
Moreover, worms, in addition to their critical role for soil aeration, are also found to detoxify the soils of poisonous heavy metals:
The worm that turned on heavy metal - December 2010 Excerpt: The team has carried out two feasibility studies on the use of worms in treating waste. The team first used compost produced by worms, vermicompost, as a successful adsorbent substrate for remediation of wastewater contaminated with the metals nickel, chromium, vanadium and lead. The second used earthworms directly for remediation of arsenic and mercury present in landfill soils and demonstrated an efficiency of 42 to 72% in approximately two weeks for arsenic removal and 7.5 to 30.2% for mercury removal in the same time period. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-12-worm-heavy-metal.html
Here are a couple of sites showing the crucial link of a minimal levels of metals to biological life:
Transitional Metals And Cytochrome C oxidase - Michael Denton - Nature's Destiny http://books.google.com/books?id=CdYpDRY0Z6oC&pg=PA203&lpg Proteins prove their metal - July 2010 Excerpt: ‘Nearly half of all enzymes require metals to function in catalysing biological reactions,’ Kylie Vincent, of Oxford University’s Department of Chemistry tells us. ‘Both the metal and the surrounding protein are crucial in tuning the reactivity of metal catalytic centres in enzymes.' These ‘metal centres’ are hives of industry at a microscopic scale, with metals often held in a special protein environment where they may be assembled into intricate clusters inside proteins. http://www.physorg.com/news197728929.html Your Copper Pipes - November 2011 Excerpt: In the fascinating field of ‘metals in biology’, by virtue of direct interactions with amino acid side-chains within polypeptide chains, metals play unique and critical roles in biology, promoting structures and chemistries that would not otherwise be available to proteins alone.,,, ATP7A is also important for the delivery of copper to nascent proteins in the Golgi apparatus. In mammals, ATP7A is expressed in many tissues except the liver, http://crev.info/content/111108-your_copper_pipes
As well, in conjunction with bacteria, geological processes helped detoxify the earth of dangerous levels of metal:
The Concentration of Metals for Humanity's Benefit: Excerpt: They demonstrated that hydrothermal fluid flow could enrich the concentration of metals like zinc, lead, and copper by at least a factor of a thousand. They also showed that ore deposits formed by hydrothermal fluid flows at or above these concentration levels exist throughout Earth's crust. The necessary just-right precipitation conditions needed to yield such high concentrations demand extraordinary fine-tuning. That such ore deposits are common in Earth's crust strongly suggests supernatural design. http://www.reasons.org/TheConcentrationofMetalsforHumanitysBenefit
And on top of the fact that poisonous heavy metals on the primordial earth were brought into 'life-enabling' balance by complex biogeochemical processes, there was also an explosion of minerals on earth which were a result of that first life, as well as being a result of each subsequent 'Big Bang of life' there afterwards.
Newly Discovered Bacterium Forms Intracellular Minerals - May 11, 2012 Excerpt: A new species of photosynthetic bacterium has come to light: it is able to control the formation of minerals (calcium, magnesium, barium and strontium carbonates) within its own organism. ,, carbonate rocks that date back some 3.5 billion years and are among the earliest traces of life on Earth. (Calcium carbonate, of which chalk, limestone and marble are made, also makes up corals, shells of snails and other animals, and stromatolites. Strontium Carbonate is used in Ceramics, Pyrotechnics, Electronics and metallurgy. Barium carbonate is widely used in the ceramics industry as an ingredient in glazes. It acts as a flux, a matting and crystallizing agent and combines with certain colouring oxides to produce unique colours not easily attainable by other means. In the brick, tile, earthenware and pottery industries barium carbonate is added to clays to precipitate soluble salts. Magnesium carbonate also has several important uses for man.) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120511101352.htm The Creation of Minerals: Excerpt: Thanks to the way life was introduced on Earth, the early 250 mineral species have exploded to the present 4,300 known mineral species. And because of this abundance, humans possessed all the necessary mineral resources to easily launch and sustain global, high-technology civilization. http://www.reasons.org/The-Creation-of-Minerals "Today there are about 4,400 known minerals - more than two-thirds of which came into being only because of the way life changed the planet. Some of them were created exclusively by living organisms" - Bob Hazen - Smithsonian - Oct. 2010, pg. 54
To put it mildly, this minimization of poisonous elements, and 'explosion' of useful minerals, is strong evidence for Intelligently Designed terra-forming of the earth that 'just so happens' to be of great benefit to modern man. Clearly many, if not all, of these metal ores and minerals laid down by these sulfate-reducing bacteria, as well as laid down by the biogeochemistry of more complex life, as well as laid down by finely-tuned geological conditions throughout the early history of the earth, have many unique properties which are crucial for technologically advanced life, and are thus indispensable to man’s rise above the stone age to the advanced 'space-age' technology of modern civilization.bornagain77
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Phinehas, thanks for the link to 'the world's toughest bacterium. Fascinating stuff. As to bio-remediation, I think that plays very strongly into the 'terra-forming' of the earth: Contrary to what materialism would expect, the very first photosynthetic bacteria found in the fossil record, and by chemical analysis of the geological record, are shown to have been preparing the earth for more advanced life to appear from the very start of their existence on earth (in the oldest sedimentary rocks on earth),,,
When Did Life First Appear on Earth? - Fazale Rana - December 2010 Excerpt: The primary evidence for 3.8 billion-year-old life consists of carbonaceous deposits, such as graphite, found in rock formations in western Greenland. These deposits display an enrichment of the carbon-12 isotope. Other chemical signatures from these formations that have been interpreted as biological remnants include uranium/thorium fractionation and banded iron formations. Recently, a team from Australia argued that the dolomite in these formations also reflects biological activity, specifically that of sulfate-reducing bacteria. http://www.reasons.org/when-did-life-first-appear-earth
,,by producing the necessary oxygen for higher life-forms to exist, and by reducing the greenhouse gases of earth’s early atmosphere. Photosynthetic bacteria slowly removed the carbon dioxide, and built the oxygen up, in the earth’s atmosphere primarily by this following photosynthetic chemical reaction:
6H2O + 6CO2 ----------> C6H12O6+ 6O2
The above chemical equation translates as:
Six molecules of water plus six molecules of carbon dioxide produce one molecule of sugar plus six molecules of oxygen
Interestingly, the gradual removal of greenhouse gases from the early atmosphere of the earth corresponded to the gradual 15% increase of light and heat coming from the sun during that time (Ross; Creation as Science). This 'lucky' correspondence of the slow increase of heat from the sun with the same perfectly timed slow removal of greenhouse gases from the earth’s atmosphere was necessary to keep the earth from cascading into either a 'greenhouse earth' or 'snowball earth'.
Why Didn't Early Earth Freeze? The Mystery Deepens - April 2010 Excerpt: The results were "very surprising," Rosing says. As to the question of what kept the planet warm instead of CO2, he says his research points to two possibilities. First, Earth's land masses were much smaller billions of years ago, meaning that the oceans, which generally are darker than continents, could absorb more of the sun's heat. Second, because life was brand new, organisms were manufacturing little of the gases that help clouds form. So, more sunlight reached the surface.,, There are bound to be other factors, Rosing says. "I think that our paper is just one link in a long chain of further refinements of our understanding of the early Earth and of the dynamics of our planet." http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2010/03/why-didnt-early-earth-freeze-the.html Earth’s Primordial Atmosphere Must Be Fine-Tuned - Hugh Ross Excerpt: The team then produced calculations demonstrating that the only reasonable scenario for explaining why the Sun’s radiation did not remove Earth’s primordial atmosphere was that the early Earth’s atmosphere was at least a hundred times richer in carbon dioxide. http://www.reasons.org/earths-primordial-atmosphere-must-be-fine-tuned
More interesting still, the byproducts of the complex biogeochemical processes involved in the oxygen production by these early bacteria are (red banded) iron formations, limestone, marble, gypsum, phosphates, sand, and to a lesser extent, coal, oil and natural gas (note; though some coal, oil and natural gas deposits are from this early era of bacterial life, most coal, oil and natural gas deposits originated on earth after the Cambrian explosion of higher life forms some 540 million years ago). The resources produced by these early photosynthetic bacteria are very useful, one could even very well say 'necessary', for the technologically advanced civilizations of humans today to exist. Moreover, while the photo-synthetic bacteria were reducing greenhouse gases and producing oxygen, and metal, and minerals, which would all be of benefit to modern man, other types of bacteria were also producing their own natural resources which would be very useful to modern man. Some types of bacteria helped prepare the earth for advanced life by detoxifying the primeval earth and oceans of poisonous levels of heavy metals while depositing them as relatively inert metal ores. Metal ores which are very useful for modern man, as well as fairly easy for man to extract today (mercury, cadmium, zinc, cobalt, arsenic, chromate, tellurium and copper to name a few). To this day, various types of bacteria maintain an essential minimal level of these heavy metals in the ecosystem which are high enough so as to be available to the biological systems of the higher life forms that need them yet low enough so as not to be poisonous to those very same higher life forms.
Bacterial Heavy Metal Detoxification and Resistance Systems: Excerpt: Bacterial plasmids contain genetic determinants for resistance systems for Hg2+ (and organomercurials), Cd2+, AsO2, AsO43-, CrO4 2-, TeO3 2-, Cu2+, Ag+, Co2+, Pb2+, and other metals of environmental concern.,, Recombinant DNA analysis has been applied to mercury, cadmium, zinc, cobalt, arsenic, chromate, tellurium and copper resistance systems. http://www.springerlink.com/content/u1t281704577v8t3/ The role of bacteria in hydrogeochemistry, metal cycling and ore deposit formation: Textures of sulfide minerals formed by SRB (sulfate-reducing bacteria) during bioremediation (most notably pyrite and sphalerite) have textures reminiscent of those in certain sediment-hosted ores, supporting the concept that SRB may have been directly involved in forming ore minerals. http://www.goldschmidt2009.org/abstracts/finalPDFs/A1161.pdf Similar organisms deal with life in the extreme differently, research finds - September 24, 2012 Excerpt: One single-celled organism from a hot spring near Mount Vesuvius in Italy fights uranium toxicity directly – by eating the heavy metal and acquiring energy from it. Another single-celled organism that lives on a "smoldering heap" near an abandoned uranium mine in Germany overcomes uranium toxicity indirectly – essentially shutting down its cellular processes to induce a type of cellular coma when toxic levels of uranium are present in its environment. Interestingly, these very different responses to environmental stress come from two organisms that are 99.99 percent genetically identical. http://phys.org/news/2012-09-similar-life-extreme-differently.html Researchers Identify Mysterious Life Forms in the Extreme Deep Sea Excerpt: Xenophyophores are noteworthy for their size, with individual cells often exceeding 10 centimeters (4 inches), their extreme abundance on the seafloor and their role as hosts for a variety of organisms.,,, The researchers spotted the life forms at depths up to 10,641 meters (6.6 miles) within the Sirena Deep of the Mariana Trench.,,, Scientists say xenophyophores are the largest individual cells in existence. Recent studies indicate that by trapping particles from the water, xenophyophores can concentrate high levels of lead, uranium and mercury,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111024165037.htm
Man has only recently caught on to harnessing the ancient detoxification ability of bacteria to cleanup his accidental toxic spills, as well as his toxic waste, from industry:
Metal-mining bacteria are green chemists - Sept. 2010 Excerpt: Microbes could soon be used to convert metallic wastes into high-value catalysts for generating clean energy, say scientists writing in the September issue of Microbiology. http://www.physorg.com/news202618665.html Arsenic removal: research on bioremediation using arsenite-eating bacteria https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/alien-life/#comment-368346
bornagain77
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KN @ 35 Thank you for your response. I apologize for being so long in replying, but I've been otherwise engaged. Hope the thread isn't dead already... Regarding your points:
For one thing, Matzke and I come from very different disciplines. My background is in philosophy; his is in evolutionary biology. One thing you learn to appreciate, if you study the history of philosophy, is that there is no view so crazy and wild that wasn’t taken seriously by some philosopher at some point.
This is true. Having acknowledged that, though, it must be realized that civilized discourse is necessary to all academic endeavors. It is not peculiar to philosophy, nor is it to be rejected by evolutionary biology. Furthermore, the history of science shows that many now common scientific understandings (e.g. Big Bang, that light doesn't need ether, that continents move, etc.) were at one point considered to be 'crazy and wild.' Of all fields science especially must keep an open mind so that it remains vibrant and progressive.
Whereas in science, the process of disciplinization — of becoming a qualified scientist, an expert — means that one’s sense of the “live options” becomes really quite narrow. And that’s a good thing — we want scientists to be working on questions that haven’t been answered yet, that take for granted the answers discovered by previous scientists. In other words, science makes progress, certain options just get taken off the table, whereas philosophy doesn’t make progress. (Although the philosophical questions do change, sort of — what was the most pressing question of one generation of philosophers can look silly a few generations later, and unintelligible a few generations after that.)
Again, I agree that science is progressive, but just because it seeks to advance our understanding doesn't mean that some fundamental assumptions don't need reexamination. We can't simply take for granted all of the ideas that may have scientific respectability at the moment. Where would we be if science refused to reexamine geocentrism, or phlogiston theory, or blood letting? Indeed, progression in science requires a willingness to challenge long-held ideas when warranted by the data. Another point needs to be made, namely, that while some ideas are taken off the table, others are never given serious consideration in the first place. Sometimes the philosophical assumptions that hold up the paradigm get in the way of solutions to problems that would be otherwise easy to see. Of these marginallized solutions I consider ID to be one of the foremost.
For another thing, Matzke and I have different motives for participating on the blog. He’s here as a science educator — he’s trying to get you all to see how badly distorted your understanding of evolutionary biology is. And the relationship of an educator to his or her students is not grounded in a presumption of equality. I’m not here as a educator, though I do sometimes offer corrections (as I see them) to misunderstandings of Kant or Nietzsche. I’m here because I enjoy arguing with smart people, because I think that a philosophical view (in my case, naturalism) is improved by bringing it into dialogue with those who disagree with it, and because I can use the comments here to experiment with my own ideas in philosophy of biology.
I wouldn't dispute that your motives are different, but I think that your conception of an educator is flawed. Matzke may well desire to enlighten us UD commenters about the truth of Neo-Darwinism, but his approach can hardly be considered that of an earnest educator. The best teachers invite provocative, challenging questions from those they instruct. They don't belittle, insult, or question the motives of those who would ask them. Matzke is so over-the-top that he even snapped at AF in another thread (who by all accounts seems to be on the same team). This is not the behavior of someone who is genuinely trying to help others to learn. The educator may not be the equal of his students, but he should treat them with a modicum of respect. Additionally, the characterization of Matzke as the educator presumes that none of us have relevant qualifications or knowledge that allow us to make meaningful critiques of Neo-Darwinian theory. On the contrary, the claims of Neo-Darwinism are so broad that it practically invites criticism from fields outside of evolutionary biology. For instance, the claim that sophisticated biological machines can be built in a stepwise process whilst maintaining or even improving function is really at heart an engineering claim. The claim that blind processes have the capacity to generate prodigious amounts of genetic information is an information theory claim. The claims that amino acids can spontaneously form polymers in water or that the chemical reactions of metabolism can arise from a chemical soup are really matters of chemistry (granting that OOL is often classed apart from classical Neo-Darwinism). The assertion that similarity is sufficient to prove phylogenetic relationships is certainly open to scrutiny from a logician. The claim that ample time was available for some number of mutaions to occur in a population is a mathematic claim. So if an engineer, an information theorist, a chemist (like Prof. Tour), a logician, or a mathematician advances some critisim of Neo-Darwinism it can't just be written off to 'lack of adequate understanding.' Lastly, though you disagree with my comparison (which of course you have every right to), I think you illustrate it quite well. Even in disagreeing you manage to be quite agreeable, even complimentary. Salutations!Optimus
March 1, 2013
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Why does random chance configure just about everything in the world to serve a purpose, usually innumerable purposes? Indeed, without such a purposeful rationale, of what use would time/space-time, itself be? The purposiveness of time seems to be another indication of the primacy of mind over matter. So random chance as the Prime Mover is the very height of nonsense. Time, itself, is, in very principle, superfluous to randomness, isn't it? It's like giving a computer to a pet jerbil. You might as well give it to a paving-stone or a tree, outside your house. Whatever the linear answer to the question, 'Why is there something, instead of nothing?' may be, the question itself constitutes its own answer, albeit more recondite. Hence the refrain atheists will continue to hear again and again from theists: that they, the atheists, stand for nihilism and irrationality. Not so much the Dark Night of the Soul of St John of the Cross, as the Dark Night of the Mole.Axel
March 1, 2013
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Link fail. :( http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/07_02/deinococcus.shtmlPhinehas
March 1, 2013
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I find the following one of the most fascinating microorganisms for its ability to repair its own DNA as well as its potential to help clean up radioactive waste: Phinehas
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Hi bornagain 77, Thanks for the links on bacteriophages and MRSA. They were much appreciated.vjtorley
March 1, 2013
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Dr. Torley, looking around on MRSA, I found this humorous,, French Volcanic Clay Kills Antibiotic-Resistant MRSA Superbug Excerpt: I've heard of some people being told to "go roll around in the dirt" to get rid of their MRSA, and I've heard some reports of that working. I believe the effect was in "normalizing" their resident bacteria living on their skin. Just like in our digestive system, bacteria live in balance. Put more of the "good" guys in, and that will support your body being in balance. http://staph-infection-resources.blogspot.com/2008/04/french-volcanic-clay-kills-antibiotic.html MRSA - Supergerms Do they prove evolution? Likewise, you contract a hospital infection only in a hospital. The hospitals are spraying disinfectants on every available surface to kill off their so-called supergerms, and, most importantly, dealing with serious clinical infections requiring powerful antibiotics. Maybe they would do better to bring in a few truckloads of dirt off the street every six months, and spread that around and sweep it off! Maybe the hospitals would do even better to do research on inoculating superinfection patients, not with more antibiotics, but with a competing infection that would crowd out the supergerms. (I doubt that this would work, but it’s worth exploring, especially when germs that kill by bacteriotoxins are concerned.) - In places that are exposed to dirt from the street—such as your house—the supergerms are kept in their place not by powerful drugs and poisons but by competition with other germs. And their resistance genes are diluted by genes of the susceptible or non-resistant germs of the same species rather than being concentrated by selective breeding. That is why most non-hospital infections respond readily to antibiotics—the drug kills most of the germs, the body takes care of the rest. If it were not so, the so called supergerms would escape from hospitals and sweep the world. http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v11/i2/supergerms.asp Are You Too Clean? - New Studies Suggest Getting A Little Dirty May Be Just What The Doctor Ordered - December 2010 http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201012.htm#20101208a Superbugs not super after all Excerpt: It is precisely because the mutations which give rise to resistance are in some form or another defects, that so-called supergerms are not really ‘super’ at all—they are actually rather ‘wimpy’ compared to their close cousins. http://creation.com/superbugs-not-super-after-allbornagain77
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Dr. Torley, thanks for the Malaria & HIV info,, along that line of thought: Though most people think of viruses as being very harmful to humans, the fact is that the Bacteriophage (Bacteria Eater) virus, Virus - Assembly Of A Nano-Machine - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4023122 , is actually a very beneficial virus to man. Of note: Bacteriophage Excerpt: Bacteriophages are among the most common biological entities on Earth,,,They have been used for over 60 years as an alternative to antibiotics in the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe.[5] They are seen as a possible therapy against multi drug resistant strains of many bacteria.,,,development of phage therapy was largely abandoned in the West, but continued throughout 1940s in the former Soviet Union for treating bacterial infections, with widespread use including the soldiers in the Red Army—much of the literature was published in Russian or Georgian, and unavailable for many years in the West. Their use has continued since the end of the Cold War in Georgia and elsewhere in Eastern Europe.,,,In August, 2006 the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved using bacteriophages on cheese to kill the Listeria monocytogenes bacteria, giving them GRAS status (Generally Recognized As Safe).[10] In July 2007, the same bacteriophages were approved for use on all food products.[11] Government agencies in the West have for several years been looking to Georgia and the Former Soviet Union for help with exploiting phages for counteracting bioweapons and toxins, e.g., Anthrax, Botulism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteriophage Also of note,,, Richard Dawkins interview with a 'Darwinian' physician goes off track - video Excerpt: "I am amazed, Richard, that what we call metazoans, multi-celled organisms, have actually been able to evolve, and the reason [for amazement] is that bacteria and viruses replicate so quickly -- a few hours sometimes, they can reproduce themselves -- that they can evolve very, very quickly. And we're stuck with twenty years at least between generations. How is it that we resist infection when they can evolve so quickly to find ways around our defenses?" http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/07/video_to_dawkin062031.html Indeed, instead of eating us, time after time these different types of microbial life are found to be helping us in essential ways,,, NIH Human Microbiome Project defines normal bacterial makeup of the body – June 13, 2012 Excerpt: Microbes inhabit just about every part of the human body, living on the skin, in the gut, and up the nose. Sometimes they cause sickness, but most of the time, microorganisms live in harmony with their human hosts, providing vital functions essential for human survival. http://www.nih.gov/news/health/jun2012/nhgri-13.htm We are living in a bacterial world, and it's impacting us more than previously thought - February 15, 2013 by Lisa Zyga Excerpt: We often associate bacteria with disease-causing "germs" or pathogens, and bacteria are responsible for many diseases, such as tuberculosis, bubonic plague, and MRSA infections. But bacteria do many good things, too, and the recent research underlines the fact that animal life would not be the same without them.,,, I am,, convinced that the number of beneficial microbes, even very necessary microbes, is much, much greater than the number of pathogens." http://phys.org/news/2013-02-bacterial-world-impacting-previously-thought.html#ajTabsbornagain77
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Hi JLAfan2001, Thank you for your questions. You write:
...[Y]ou posit that God must have guided the process [of evolution]. Isn't this the standard "God of the gaps" fallacy that all evolutionists argue against? What happens if and when science does figure out the chemical process for micro and macroevolution? What happens to God or ID then? The question will just get pushed back to OOL until that gets solved too. One could posit that the mechanisms of evolution were front loaded but how can one possibly know that.
First, the objects that I'm seeking out are not "gaps" but what I call "jewels" - striking pieces of evidence which point to the existence of an Intelligent Designer of Nature in an especially convincing fashion - such as Melissa Travis' post on Caribbean reef squid. My God, then, is not a God of the gaps but a "God of the jewels": He's a God Who has made a many-splendored crown called Nature, which points to having had a Maker, and in which He has embedded some dazzlingly beautiful jewels, which provide particularly striking confirmation of His existence, for the benefit of those people who are seeking Him with an open heart. Second, your question presupposes that the "gaps" are shrinking in number. In fact, there reverse is the case. Consider fine-tuning. The scientific evidence for fine-tuning only became available around 1980, and even now, one new example of fine-tuning is still discovered every year, according to Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez's recent talk on the subject. Or consider the astronomical odds against protein formation occurring naturally without intelligent guidance: again, Dr. Douglas Axe's estimates were only made a few years ago. Or consider molecular machines, which were unknown a few decades ago, and are still being discovered today. Does that sound like "shrinking gaps" to you? You also ask:
Also, why does UD accept guided evolution only? At least that's the argument that's common. I don't hear anyone claiming that the weather, avalanches, star formations, chemical reactions, droughts, malaria, aids, car accidents are all guided. Why just biological evolution? Wouldn't it make sense that if one thing is random then they all are or if one thing is guided then everything is? This would either make God evil and capricious or uninvolved in nature.
The reason why Uncommon Descent argues that the emergence of the various life-forms on this planet must have been intelligently guided is that these life-forms exhibit the property of having a high degree of specified complexity: that is, they are simultaneously astronomically improbable and easily describable (in terms of their functionality). Putting it another way, we can say that they have a high degree of functional information. The same cannot be said for the weather, avalanches, star formations, most chemical reactions, droughts and car accidents. AIDS and malaria are tricky cases, as they do exhibit a high degree of specified complexity, with lots of functional information. However, before we can point the finger at God, we need to know whether they were always malign. The available evidence suggests that originally, they were not. According to a recent press release by the National Science Foundation, modern malaria parasites began to spread to various mammals, birds and reptiles about 16 million years ago. Malaria parasites may jump to new, unrelated hosts at any time, decoupling their evolution from that of their hosts. The ancestors of humans acquired the parasite 2.5 million years ago. However, according to Dr. Robert Ricklefs, one of the biologists who conducted the recent research into the origin of the malaria parasite, "Malaria parasites undoubtedly were relatively benign for most of that history, becoming a major disease only after the origins of agriculture and dense human populations." What about AIDS? It appears that the AIDS virus originated relatively recently, as a mutation from SIV, the simian immuno-deficiency virus. According to Wikipedia, this virus was also benign in its original form:
...[I]t has been concluded that SIV has been present in monkeys and apes for at least 32,000 years, and probably much longer. Virus strains from two of these primate species, SIVsmm in sooty mangabeys and SIVcpz in chimpanzees, are believed to have crossed the species barrier into humans, resulting in HIV-2 and HIV-1, respectively. The most likely route of transmission of HIV-1 to humans involves contact with the blood of chimps that are often hunted for bushmeat in Africa. Unlike HIV-1 and HIV-2 infections in humans, SIV infections in their natural hosts appear in many cases to be non-pathogenic. Extensive studies in sooty mangabeys have established that SIVsmm infection does not cause any disease in these animals, despite high levels of circulating virus. However, if this virus infects an Asian or Indian rhesus macaque, the animal will develop simian AIDS (SAIDS). A recent study of SIVcpz in wild living chimpanzees suggests that infected chimpanzees experience an AIDS-like illness similar to HIV-1 infected humans. The later stages of SIV infection turn into SAIDS, much as HIV infection turns into AIDS... ...The discovery of SIV was made shortly after HIV-1 had been isolated as the cause of AIDS and led to the discovery of HIV-2 strains in West Africa. HIV-2 was more similar to the then-known SIV strains than to HIV-1, suggesting for the first time the simian origin of HIV. Further studies indicated that HIV-2 is derived from the SIVsmm strain found in sooty mangabeys, whereas HIV-1, the predominant virus found in humans, is derived from SIV strains infecting chimpanzees (SIVcpz).
According to an article in Nature News, SIV in chimps appears to spread very slowly, with infection rates among chimpanzees of only around 2%. The spread of HIV in Africa early in the 20th century appears to be linked to the twin evils of prostitution and colonialism, according to Wikipedia. In short, the evidence points to something that was originally innocuous, having turned malign due to outside factors, include many of our own making. I therefore think it would be unwise to claim that AIDS and malaria constitute arguments against the existence of a Deity. Finally, I would point out that even things that are not designed in Nature are still sustained in being by God, "in Whom we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17:28). Their very contingency points to His existence. On this point, see Professor Paul Herrick's excellent paper, Job Opening: Creator of the Universe—A Reply to Keith Parsons (2009). I hope that helps.vjtorley
March 1, 2013
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:) Eric: "The perception of evolution’s explanatory power is inversely proportional to the specificity of the discussion." That is perhaps the most mathematically rigid thing that can be said about Darwinism! :)bornagain77
March 1, 2013
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NM: (On the assumption that you are monitoring this thread still. I am sorry to have to be sharper than VJT is comfortable with, but on track record I think this is needed.) It is evident that you have made some pretty sharp assertions -- accusations would not be too strong -- against prof Tour, ahead of any proposed meeting. As Dr Torley and I have documented above, there is a serious well-poisoning problem with several of these. Worse, in some cases you have made claims that are demonstrably inaccurate, e.g. Tour OBJECTED TO the close association between Darwinism and the holocaust etc made in the film, Expelled. He did cite Frankl, a physician who survived Auschwitz, on another view that is closer to that of Stein et al, and closed off with a prayer that Frankl be wrong. In addition, in my case, your remarks come far too close to suggesting that Tour has accused evolutionary science of being fraud. The very suggestion, in a case where you cannot show that such a grave accusation was made -- and note you hinted rather than stating and documenting -- is not right. I state, and have stated and headlined, that there is not a general accusation of fraud on the part of evolutionary biology. At least from representative and important design thinkers, and even the major contributors and commenters in this blog. Instead, there is a question of ideological a prioris shaped by the mindset of the past 150 years, and of a pattern of over-claiming the degree of warrant applicable to results (That "fact" thing again and that comparison to the case of gravity or roundness of earth or orbiting of planets, in a context where we are discussing an explanation proffered to account for traces from a remote and unobservable past of origins.) Now of course, VJT connects Frankl's comments to determinism. I point out beyond that, that the scientific determinism of the past 150 years, is in significant part, driven by a priori materialism and linked evolutionism. I further highlight the line of thought from Darwin, Spencer and co to Heckel and co to the general German intellectual culture, one that by the 1830's was in such a state that Heine had given serious warnings on where the matter was headed. A warning that was all too amply fulfilled in the rape of Belgium in the first world war (Bryan spoke of "Prussianism"), and which onwards, found much wider expression in the second. I have also pointed to and headlined wider concerns regarding the links to the eugenics movement (posting the logo from the 2nd Int'l Eugenics Congress to document the sciences and other streams of thought that were held to ground the proposed global project of "the self-direction of human evolution." [This actually appeared in the logo as the DEFINITION of eugenics. And remember, Darwin's family were closely associated with the movement, lending it the prestige of his name.]) This raises significant issues on science in society, and linked ethics concerns. These, I have pointed out, need to be faced and soberly addressed. I invite you, please, to do so, as a part of the dialling down of the rhetorical voltage in the situation. For, if the voltage is turned up to the levels that the assertions you have made (some of which are demonstrably inaccurate) no real progress will be possible. KFkairosfocus
March 1, 2013
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EDTA @56:
A lack of specificity can be a good thing when you want leeway to change your mind in the future, while still standing by former statements. Fields such as math, computer science and physics don’t seem to suffer the same lack of precision in terminology.
Too true. This calls to mind one of my maxims I like to keep in mind when I hear materialistic just-so evolutionary stories: The perception of evolution's explanatory power is inversely proportional to the specificity of the discussion.Eric Anderson
February 28, 2013
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Nick wrote:
Torley seems to accept speciation. What’s the “chemical” explanation of speciation? Hint: it is possible to have speciation with no new mutations at all.
Yes, depending on which of the various definitions of speciation one chooses. Just pick the one that defines it as "a population that splits geographically, and hence no longer interbreeds". I've heard there are over 20 distinct definitions, although I can only name around 5 off the top of my head. Does it occur to anyone else that the same semantic range of evolutionary terms that allows us to allegedly "quote mine" also benefits the evo-defenders? A lack of specificity can be a good thing when you want leeway to change your mind in the future, while still standing by former statements. Fields such as math, computer science and physics don't seem to suffer the same lack of precision in terminology.EDTA
February 28, 2013
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: Microevolution vs. Macroevolution: How Do Differences in Body Plan Arise? The debate over the origin and evolution of animal body plans has a key role to play in evaluating claims about macroevolution. Broadly speaking, "microevolution" is used to describe the change in representation of heritable variants in a population over generations, where new variants enter the population by mutation or migration, then rise or fall in frequency by selection and drift until one variant replaces all others. "Macroevolution" represents those changes that are not observable at the population level, but are detected by comparing different evolutionary lineages: Examples include the origins of major evolutionary adaptations, and differences in diversification rate. ...mainstream opinion in evolutionary biology has been that lineage differences can be explained in terms of population genetic processes: All evolution is microevolution, and macroevolution is a level of observation, rather than a separate process. But there have always been challenges to this view. - Brett Calcott and Kim Sterelny, Editors. The Major Transitions in Evolution Revisited. (pp 273-276)
Mung
February 28, 2013
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Phinehas @ 52, thanks for the compliment. :) I don't imagine the distinction is even apparent to true believers.Chance Ratcliff
February 28, 2013
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BA77 @ 45, That is Henry-Ford-of-the-gaps reasoning: the informal fallacy that posits a creator for the Ford motor car, Henry Ford, when the motor car's operation and production can be understood entirely in terms of natural law.
On being asked by Napoleon where God fitted into his mathematical work, Laplace, quite correctly, replied: 'Sir, I have no need of that hypothesis.' Of course God did not appear in Laplace's mathematical description of how things work, just as Mr. Ford would not appear in a scientific description of the laws of internal combustion. But what does that prove? That Henry ford did not exist? Clearly not. Neither does such an argument prove that God does not exist. Austin Farrer comments on the Laplace incident as follows: 'Since God is not a rule built into the action of forces, nor is he a block of force, no sentence about God can play a part in physics or astronomy... We may forgive Laplace - he was answering an amateur according to his ignorance, not to say a fool according to his folly. Considered as a serious observation, his remark could scarcely have been more misleading. Laplace and his colleagues had not learned to do without theology; they had merely learned to mind their own business.'28 Quite so. But suppose Napoleon had posed a somewhat different question to Laplace: 'Why is there a universe at all in which there is matter and gravity and in which projectiles composed of matter moving under gravity describe the orbits encapsulated in your mathematical equations?' It would be harder to argue that the existence of God was irrelevant to that question. But then, that was not the question that Laplace was asked. So he did not answer it. The God of the Gaps There is another important issue that arises from this story about Laplace. In any debate about science and religion, sooner or later the question of the 'God of the gaps' will be raised. This is the idea that the introduction of a god or God is an evidence of intellectual laziness: we cannot explain something scientifically and so we introduce 'God' to cover our ignorance. We shall have more to say about this later, but at this juncture it is important to point out that Mr. Ford is not to be found in the gaps in our knowledge about the workings of internal combustion engines. More precisely, he is not to be found in any reason-giving explanations that concern mechanisms. For Henry Ford is not a mechanism: he is no less than the agent who is responsible for the existence of the mechanism in the first place so that it all bears the marks of his handiwork - and that means the bits we do understand and the bits we don't. So it is with God. At the more abstract level of the explanatory power of science itself, philosopher Richard Swinburne in his book Is there a God? says: 'Note that I am not postulating a 'God of the gaps', a god merely to explain the things that science has not yet explained. I am postulating a god to explain why science explains; I do not deny that science explains, but I postulate God to explain why science explains. The very success of science in showing us how deeply ordered the natural world is provides strong grounds for believing that there is an even deeper cause for that order.' Swinburne is using inference to the best explanation and saying that God is the best explanation for the explanatory power of science. The point to grasp here is that, because God is not an alternative to science as an explanation, he is not to be understood merely as a God of the gaps. On the contrary, he is the ground of all explanation: it is his existence which gives rise to the very possibility of explanation, scientific or otherwise. It is important to stress this because influential authors such as Richard Dawkins will insist of conceiving of God as an explanatory alternative to science - an idea that is nowhere to be found in theological reflection of any depth. Dawkins is therefore tilting at a windmill - dismissing a concept of God that no serious thinker believes in anyway. Such activity is not necessarily to be regarded as the mark of intellectual sophistication. John Lennox, God's Undertaker, Kindle location 1005
Chance Ratcliff
February 28, 2013
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Hey Chance, thanks for #46. I can't imagine laying it out more clearly or precisely. Now, should we set up a pool on how much time will pass before the two are conflated again as if the issue had never been so emphatically put to rest?Phinehas
February 28, 2013
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Nick M:
Please remember your comment the next time you see someone calling evolution and evolutionists a fraud, claiming that “the emperor has no clothes” with respect to evolution,
But the emperorer has no clothes, and here's the book to prove it! The Naked Emperor: Darwinism Exposed Now that's one more book than I have found on macroevolutionary theory. So come on, help a fellow out. What's a standard textbook on macroevolutionary theory? I'd love to read up on this stuff, and I bet Prof. Tour would as well, before the two of you meet. Please? Oh, and I'll really really love you if you can point me to a standard text on macroevolution in single-celled organisms. Yeah, I'd pay good money for that one.Mung
February 28, 2013
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Nick M:
What I am impressed by is so much writing can have so little understanding.
Well, it's always nice to have an expert weigh in!Mung
February 28, 2013
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JLAfan2001 (44):
Isn’t this the standard “God of the gaps” fallacy that all evolutionists argue against?
Randomness of the gaps! Stephen L. Talbott:
In the case of evolution, I picture Dennett and Dawkins filling the blackboard with their vivid descriptions of living, highly regulated, coordinated, integrated, and intensely meaningful biological processes, and then inserting a small, mysterious gap in the middle, along with the words, “Here something random occurs.” This “something random” looks every bit as wishful as the appeal to a miracle. It is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a “Randomness of the gaps,” demanding an extraordinarily blind faith. At the very least, we have a right to ask, “Can you be a little more explicit here?” A faith that fills the ever-shrinking gaps in our knowledge of the organism with a potent meaninglessness capable of transforming every-thing else into an illusion is a faith that could benefit from some minimal grounding. Otherwise, we can hardly avoid suspecting that the impor-tance of randomness in the minds of the faithful is due to its being the only presumed scrap of a weapon in a compulsive struggle to deny all the obvious meaning of our lives.
Box
February 28, 2013
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'Professor Chaitin’s point here is that if even a process of intelligently guided evolution takes, say, one billion years (1,000,000,000 years) to reach its goal, then an unguided process of cumulative random evolution (i.e. Darwin’s theory) will take one billion times one billion years to reach the same goal, or 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 years. That’s one quintillion years. The problem here should be obvious: the Earth is less than five billion years old, and even the universe is less than 14 billion years old.' Don't mess things up with math, vjt. It just makes things fuzzy.Axel
February 28, 2013
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In response, evolutionary biologist Nick Matzke has accused Professor Tour of being fundamentally ignorant about evolution.
Aren't we all? And not without reason, particularly when it comes to macroevolution. I mean, just try to find a textbook on macroevolutionary theory. It's as if they don't even teach it. And then there's the handwaving over evo-devo, as if that explains macroevolution in single celled organisms.Mung
February 28, 2013
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JLA to VJT:
"You state that microevolution is a fact but question the validity of macroevolution even though you accept common descent which I understand to be the same thing."
Common descent is the result of a putative macroevolutionary cause. In this logical relationship they cannot be the same thing; macroevolution, as an unguided process, is a sufficient cause of common descent and not a necessary one. Now if macroevolution is the cause of common descent, it must occur by some form of physical necessity -- it must happen by a definite physical process capable of being elucidated by scientific investigation. Because the physicality of living systems are biological in nature, it stands to reason that biochemical processes must be said to account for macroevolution at the fundamental, material level. It does no good to point toward evidence for common descent and proclaim, "Aha, unguided processes!" for intelligent causes are logically capable of producing this effect. Take for example an instance of genetic engineering. If a genetic defect is repaired, or more to the point, a novel function is introduced into an organism in such a way that its offspring will inherit the trait, and by some chance both states of the organism are recorded for posterity in the fossil record, will not the fossil record indicate the appearance of common descent, and a transition between features in an ancestral relationship? In what way can that insertion of novel functionality by an intelligent agent imply an unguided process? It cannot. Because it's logically possible for both intelligent and unguided processes to produce morphological changes in ancestral lineages, the observation of morphological relationships in the fossil record, if serving as evidence of common descent, cannot reasonably be taken as the evidence for macroevolution (the unguided production of major morphological novelty). Given this logical relationship between macroevolution and common descent, if it could be demonstrated that common descent did not occur, then neither could macroevolution (for macroevolution is said to be the cause of the observation). However we may still expect to see an artifact of common descent, even if macroevolution were not the cause. It's logically possible for another causal phenomenon, such as intentional acts by an intelligent designer, to produce the effect of common descent. Therefore, common descent cannot itself be the evidence that macroevolution is the cause. That would be affirming the consequent. For this reason, macroevolution requires independent, empirical verification -- elucidation of the biochemical processes, or more specifically, the role of unguided processes in the development of morphological novelty in biological systems at the biochemical level.Chance Ratcliff
February 28, 2013
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JLAfan2001
Not the God of the Gaps, But the Whole Show - John Lennox - 2012 Excerpt: Krauss does not seem to realize that his concept of God is one that no intelligent monotheist would accept. His "God" is the soft-target "God of the gaps" of the "I can't understand it, therefore God did it" variety. As a result, Krauss, like Dawkins and Hawking, regards God as an explanation in competition with scientific explanation. That is as wrong-headed as thinking that an explanation of a Ford car in terms of Henry Ford as inventor and designer competes with an explanation in terms of mechanism and law. God is not a "God of the gaps", he is God of the whole show. http://www.christianpost.com/news/the-god-particle-not-the-god-of-the-gaps-but-the-whole-show-80307/ Phillip Johnson addresses the 'God of the Gaps' fallacy - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zK5sqd1SKXo#t=2329s Francis Collins, Darwin of the Gaps, and the Fallacy Of Junk DNA - video http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/11/francis_collins_is_one_of040361.html Quantum Evidence for a Theistic Universe https://docs.google.com/document/d/1agaJIWjPWHs5vtMx5SkpaMPbantoP471k0lNBUXg0Xo/edit the argument for God from consciousness can be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit
I don't know exactly what evidence you have been looking at JLAfan2001, but Theism is certainly not the worldview that has growing gaps in it!
1. Materialism predicted an eternal universe, Theism predicted a created universe. - Big Bang points to a creation event. - 2. Materialism predicted time had an infinite past, Theism predicted time had a creation. - Time was created in the Big Bang. - 3. Materialism predicted space has always existed, Theism predicted space had a creation (Psalm 89:12) - Space was created in the Big Bang. - 4. Materialism predicted that material has always existed, Theism predicted 'material' was created. - 'Material' was created in the Big Bang. 5. Materialism predicted at the base of physical reality would be a solid indestructible material particle which rigidly obeyed the rules of time and space, Theism predicted the basis of this reality was created by a infinitely powerful and transcendent Being who is not limited by time and space - Quantum mechanics reveals a wave/particle duality for the basis of our reality which blatantly defies our concepts of time and space. - 6. Materialism predicted that consciousness is a 'emergent property' of material reality and thus has no particular special position within material reality. Theism predicted consciousness preceded material reality and therefore consciousness should have a 'special' position within material reality. Quantum Mechanics reveals that consciousness has a special, even central, position within material reality. - 7. Materialism predicted the rate at which time passed was constant everywhere in the universe, Theism predicted God is eternal and is outside of time - Special Relativity has shown that time, as we understand it, is relative and comes to a complete stop at the speed of light. (Psalm 90:4 - 2 Timothy 1:9) - 8. Materialism predicted the universe did not have life in mind and life was ultimately an accident of time and chance. Theism predicted this universe was purposely created by God with man in mind - Every transcendent universal constant scientists can measure is exquisitely fine-tuned for carbon-based life to exist in this universe. - 9. Materialism predicted complex life in this universe should be fairly common. Theism predicted the earth is extremely unique in this universe - Statistical analysis of the hundreds of required parameters which enable complex life to be possible on earth gives strong indication the earth is extremely unique in this universe. - 10. Materialism predicted much of the DNA code was junk. Theism predicted we are fearfully and wonderfully made - ENCODE research into the DNA has revealed a "biological jungle deeper, denser, and more difficult to penetrate than anyone imagined.". - 11. Materialism predicted a extremely beneficial and flexible mutation rate for DNA which was ultimately responsible for all the diversity and complexity of life we see on earth. Theism predicted only God created life on earth - The mutation rate to DNA is overwhelmingly detrimental. Detrimental to such a point that it is seriously questioned whether there are any truly beneficial mutations whatsoever. (M. Behe; JC Sanford) - 12. Materialism predicted a very simple first life form which accidentally came from "a warm little pond". Theism predicted God created life - The simplest life ever found on Earth is far more complex than any machine man has made through concerted effort. (Michael Denton PhD) - 13. Materialism predicted it took a very long time for life to develop on earth. Theism predicted life to appear abruptly on earth after water appeared on earth (Genesis 1:10-11) - We find evidence for complex photo-synthetic life in the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth - 14. Materialism predicted the gradual unfolding of life to be self-evident in the fossil record. Theism predicted complex and diverse life to appear abruptly in the seas in God's fifth day of creation. - The Cambrian Explosion shows a sudden appearance of many different and completely unique fossils within a very short "geologic resolution time" in the Cambrian seas. - 15. Materialism predicted there should be numerous transitional fossils found in the fossil record, Theism predicted sudden appearance and rapid diversity within different kinds found in the fossil record - Fossils are consistently characterized by sudden appearance of a group/kind in the fossil record, then rapid diversity within the group/kind, and then long term stability and even deterioration of variety within the overall group/kind, and within the specific species of the kind, over long periods of time. Of the few dozen or so fossils claimed as transitional, not one is uncontested as a true example of transition between major animal forms out of millions of collected fossils. - 16. Materialism predicted animal speciation should happen on a somewhat constant basis on earth. Theism predicted man was the last species created on earth - Man himself is the last generally accepted major fossil form to have suddenly appeared in the fossil record. -
As you can see when we remove the artificial imposition of the materialistic philosophy, from the scientific method, and look carefully at the predictions of both the materialistic philosophy and the Theistic philosophy, side by side, we find the scientific method is very good at pointing us in the direction of Theism as the true explanation. - In fact it is even very good at pointing us to Christianity:
General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy & the Shroud Of Turin - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5070355 General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy & The Shroud Of Turin - (updated video) http://vimeo.com/34084462
Supplemental note:
Future discoveries predicted by ID: A Response to Questions from a Biology Teacher: How Do We Test Intelligent Design? - March 2010 Excerpt: Regarding testability, ID (Intelligent Design) makes the following testable predictions: (1) Natural structures will be found that contain many parts arranged in intricate patterns that perform a specific function (e.g. complex and specified information). (2) Forms containing large amounts of novel information will appear in the fossil record suddenly and without similar precursors. (3) Convergence will occur routinely. That is, genes and other functional parts will be re-used in different and unrelated organisms. (4) Much so-called “junk DNA” will turn out to perform valuable functions. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/03/a_response_to_questions_from_a.html
Music:
Matthew West - You Are Everything - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgb3ooVTJ6g
bornagain77
February 28, 2013
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VJT I would like to verify if I understand your point. You state that microevolution is a fact but question the validity of macroevolution even though you accept common descent which I understand to be the same thing. You question it because there is no chemical explanation but accept it because of the fossil evidence shows transitions. To rectify this problem, you posit that God must have guided the process. Isn’t this the standard “God of the gaps” fallacy that all evolutionists argue against? What happens if and when science does figure out the chemical process for micro and macroevolution? What happens to God or ID then? The question will just get pushed back to OOL until that gets solved too. One could posit that the mechanisms of evolution were front loaded but how can one possibly know that. I know that BA77 will ask for evidence of one protein that arose by natural means. Also, why does UD accept guided evolution only? At least that’s the argument that’s common. I don’t hear anyone claiming that the weather, avalanches, star formations, chemical reactions, droughts, malaria, aids, car accidents are all guided. Why just biological evolution? Wouldn’t it make sense that if one thing is random then they all are or if one thing is guided then everything is? This would either make God evil and capricious or uninvolved in nature. I mean no disrespect. I’m just trying to figure this evolution, ID, God thing out and so far I’m not having any luck.JLAfan2001
February 28, 2013
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timothya:
Podarcus sicula. Micro to macro.
In what way?Joe
February 28, 2013
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Hi bornagain77 and Eric Anderson, Thanks very much for your helpful comments. They were much appreciated. Thank you.vjtorley
February 28, 2013
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timothya (32): Podarcus sicula. Micro to macro. As BA77 just responded, this is a great example of the obtuse thinking of the evolutionist. They see something move in Biology and immediately associate it with neo-darwinian processes. This P.Sicula example has been parroted around the internet for years. Dawkins even did a special feature on it attributing the lizard variations to his Blind Watchmaker process. Come to find out the morphological variations in P.Sicula are precisely anti-darwinian. The changes in dentition, skull, and gut morphology are due to a built in system of adaptability(plasticity) wherein the environment directly triggers phenotypic changes in the species. Nothing about this reflects random mutations. (See Vervust et al. 2010: Anatomical and Physiological Changes Associated with a Recent Dietary Shift in the Lizard Podarcis sicula) And come to realize this phenotypic plasticity actually happens quite a lot with rapid noticeable variations in species morphology, all of which have no doubt been attributed to and paraded as RM + NS at some point. I still don't understand why evolutionists actually believe their proposed random incremental variations (like say making bite force or beak size 10% larger than it was before) would actually be under enough selection pressure to fixate repeatedly in wild populations. It's such a silly idea when you think about it. Then again, most of them are attributing the same potential of bacteria population genetics to animals running around in the woods... Of course there is no apology from the Darwinists. This is their routine. When they find something in biology that gives a superficial allusion to being attributed to Darwinian Evolution, they immediately blurt it on a megaphone for the world to hear, and then let real science come along a couple years later to clean up their mess. Of course by that time the damage has already been done and the public has been exposed to yet another illusion that there is actual evidence for Evolution.lifepsy
February 28, 2013
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Hi Nick, Thank you for your comments. "Victory is mine," you say? Not so fast. (1) The word "uncommon" means "out of the ordinary; unusual." Defined in this way, I believe that the various life-forms on Earth today do indeed have an Uncommon Descent: they are all the product of Intelligent Design, which is not a regular, law-governed process. Uncommon descent, so understood, is perfectly compatible with the view (which I happen to hold) that all living things share a common ancestry. (2) I take it you would regard Professor Michael Behe as an Intelligent Design proponent. He accepts common ancestry, and you haven't upbraided him for it. Why do you have a problem with my having the same view on this issue? (3) William J. Murray has cited the statement from Frequently raised but weak arguments against Intelligent Design that "one can affirm CD [common descent] and ID [intelligent design], CD and Darwinian Evolution, or ID and not CD." I fall into the first category; most of the ID proponents you've met evidently fall into the third category. (4) Regarding my concession that Homo erectus (broadly defined) was directly ancestral to modern Homo sapiens, you write:
Well, how about that! Torley has just conceded: 1. Fossils with transitional morphology do indeed exist in the fossil record. 2. Furthermore, even direct ancestor species can sometimes be detected in the fossil record. 3. Torley also accepts macroevolution, in the sense of one species evolving into another species. 4. Furthermore, he accepts this even for humans, everyone’s favorite species.
A few points in response: (i) I'm quite happy to acknowledge transitional fossils. What I don't accept is the Darwinian view that the transitions took place as a result of unguided natural processes. I think evolution was intelligently guided. See my post, Darwinians concoct a whale of a tale about the evolution of the ear. (ii) It is a little misleading of you to characterize my position as being that "direct ancestor species can sometimes be detected in the fossil record." As it happens, I accept Homo erectus as a direct ancestor of Homo sapiens, but that doesn't mean I have a method for detecting and identifying "direct ancestor species." The reason why I believe Homo erectus was a direct ancestor of Homo sapiens is very simple: there are no other remotely plausible candidates from around that time. Homo erectus wins by default. Please note that this kind of case is rare, and that if you asked me whether I accept Homo habilis as an ancestor of Homo erectus, I'd have to say, "I don't know," because there are other possibilities. In typical cases, Vincent Sarich's dictum applies: "I know my molecules have ancestors, you must prove your fossils had descendants." (iii) I do indeed accept macroevolution, in the sense of one biological species evolving into another biological species. African cichlids are a good case in point. However, I would also accept the conclusion of Dr. Arthur Jones, who did his Ph.D. thesis in biology on cichlids, that the zoological family of cichlid fish constitutes a well-defined type. Here is how he describes his Ph.D. research on cichlid fish, a family of which there are over 1,000 different species:
For all the diversity of species, I found the cichlids to be an unmistakably natural group, a created kind. The more I worked with these fish the clearer my recognition of "cichlidness" became and the more distinct they seemed from all the "similar" fishes I studied. Conversations at conferences and literature searches confirmed that this was the common experience of experts in every area of systematic biology. Distinct kinds really are there and the experts know it to be so. - On a wider canvas, fossils provided no comfort to evolutionists. All fish, living and fossil, belong to distinct kinds; "links" are decidedly missing.
In general, my view is that living things fall into various natural kinds, that these natural kinds roughly coincide with the taxon of "family," and that the emergence of a new family of organisms requires at least one act of Intelligent Design. (In the case of whales, I'd say there were about seven or eight, to get from an Indohyus-like creature to the first true whale.) I also hold that typically, unguided natural processes are sufficient to account for the diversification of families into genera and species. (Humans are an exception.) (iv) Regarding human evolution: my own view is that humans and chimps share a common ancestry, but that God "intervened" (I know that's a funny word to use for a timeless Being, but I'm describing events from our time-bound perspective) in the line leading to human beings on at least three occasions: about 2 million years ago, when Homo erectus emerged; about 700,000 years ago, when Homo heidelbergensis (whom I tentatively identify as the first true human being) appeared; and about 200,000 years ago, when Homo sapiens emerged. I believe that on each of these occasions, the genes controlling brain development were manipulated by God. Thus it would be incorrect to say that I accept macroevolution for human beings. The emergence of human beings was definitely an intelligently guided process. (5) You allege that in my discussion of macroevolution, I correctly quote you regarding the various senses of the word, but that I then: (i) lump all the usages of the term together anyway; (ii) claim that any complexity in linking microevolution and macroevolution in any one of the subtopics applies to all the others; and (iii) assume that it is reasonable to demand a "chemical" explanation of "macroevolution", without distinguishing the various senses of the word. You also allege that in my discussion of macroevolution, I fail to make it clear what subtype(s) of macroevolution is actually being discussed. I'd like to apologize if I created any confusion in my post, regarding what kind of macroevolution I was discussing. To be crystal clear: the kinds of macroevolution that I was particularly concerned with were: (i) the evolution of novel structures such as the eye, the bacterial flagellum and the unique features of the human brain (which are all cases where I'd argue that exaptation isn't a sufficient explanation for what happened); and (ii) the origin of higher taxa such as families, orders, classes and phyla. (Genera and species don't interest me much.) The other kinds of macroevolution which you cite do not necessarily require intelligent guidance, in my opinion, although in particular cases they may. However, I would maintain that all kinds of macroevolution need to be described at the chemical level, in order to be understood fully. That doesn't mean that other levels aren't important too. And it certainly doesn't mean that higher levels can be boiled down to the chemical level. As I said, I'm not a reductionist, and neither is Tour. (6) Regarding my demand for a chemical explanation of macroevolution (and here I'm talking about all kinds, whether intelligently guided or not), you write:
* Torley completely fails to engage with my points about levels of explanation and the fact that "chemistry" isn't always the correct one. What's the "chemical" explanation of the Grand Canyon? Is it reasonable to doubt the mainstream geological explanation of the Grand Canyon unless and until there is a "chemical" explanation? Torley seems to accept speciation. What's the "chemical" explanation of speciation? Hint: it is possible to have speciation with no new mutations at all.
I'm a little disappointed that you didn't fully grasp the point I was making in my post about explanations. To be perfectly clear: I fully accept that there are various levels of explanation, including the chemical level. I don't claim (and neither does Professor Tour) that there is only one appropriate level of explanation for macroevolution - namely, chemistry. What I do claim (following Professor Behe) is that when studying biological processes (such as macroevolution) which occur ultimately at the molecular level, it is perfectly legitimate to demand a chemical account of what happens. Hence your claim that "chemistry" isn't always the correct level of explanation misses the point. Chemistry is a correct level of explanation, but not the correct level. Regarding the Grand Canyon, it's perfectly legitimate for a chemist like Tour to ask how water managed to cut through thousands of feet of sediments, to create the Grand Canyon in the first place. To answer that question, one would need to point out that extensive uplifting occurred in the region, making the water in the river flow faster and cut more deeply than usual (a mechanical explanation). One would also need to point out that most of the rocks in the Grand Canyon are sedimentary rocks (e.g. sandstone, shale and limestone) that were deposited in warm shallow seas and near ancient, long-gone sea shores, and one would need to explain how the chemical constituents of these rocks interact with running water (e.g. they may dissolve or decompose). Thus at some point, one would have to provide a chemical explanation. Regarding speciation: even the most mundane cases require some sort of chemical explanation. You mentioned that "it is possible to have speciation with no new mutations at all." I presume you were talking about hybrid speciation here, such as plant polyploidy. However, Wikipedia states that "polyploidy is important in hybrids as it allows reproduction, with the two different sets of chromosomes each being able to pair with an identical partner during meiosis." And that brings me to sex, which is a perfect illustration of how the various levels of explanation are all required, for a complete understanding of what's going on. One can talk about the mechanics of sex - e.g. when discussing different positions a couple might want to try, and which ones are most conducive to achieving pregnancy. One can talk about the chemistry of sex - e.g. when explaining what happens immediately subsequent to fertilization:
Subsequent to sperm-egg fusion, events rapidly occur in the zygote that do not normally occur in either sperm or egg. The contents of what was previously the sperm, including its nucleus, enter the cytoplasm of the newly formed zygote. Within minutes of membrane fusion, the zygote initiates changes in its ionic composition that will, over the next 30 minutes, result in chemical modifications of the zona pellucida, an acellular structure surrounding the zygote (Figure 1B). These modifications block sperm binding to the cell surface and prevent further intrusion of additional spermatozoa on the unfolding process of development. (When Does Human Life Begin?, Vol. 1., No. 1, October 2008, by Maureen Condic, Senior Fellow, Westchester Institute for Ethics & the Human Person, and Associate Professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy at the University of Utah School of Medicine.)
If that's not chemical, I don't know what is. Once can also talk about the biology of sex from a genetic perspective. Or one can discuss the benefits and drawbacks of sex from an evolutionary perspective (e.g. in relation to the Red Queen hypothesis). And one can discuss the psychology of sex: its role in contributing to bonding, and its psychological effect on different kinds of relationships. I've only scratched the surface here. But the point I wanted to make is that chemistry is part of the story, and that it cannot be legitimately omitted. For example, a science teacher who refused to answer a student's question about how spermicides inhibit fertilization, or what role the vomeronasal system plays in animal reproduction, on the specious grounds that "chemistry is the wrong level of explanation when discussing sex," simply wouldn't be doing his/her job properly. (7) You also write:
Torley definitely accepts the origins of very different dog breeds from a dog ancestor. Why doesn't he demand a "chemical" explanation of that? What would he say if some chemistry professor came along and said that he wouldn't accept that dog breeders produced Great Danes and Chihuahuas from a common ancestor, until someone produced a complete chemical explanation?
As I've indicated above in my discussion of sex, dog breeding requires a chemical explanation too. As for refusing to accept the reality of a phenomenon until you can explain it: this is a pretty irrational thing to do, when the phenomenon in question takes place right under your nose. We've all seen dogs mating, and we've all seen puppies. And this brings me to my point about Professor Tour's willingness to accept microevolution as a fact. He writes:
From what I can see, microevolution is a fact; we see it all around us regarding small changes within a species, and biologists demonstrate this procedure in their labs on a daily basis. Hence, there is no argument regarding microevolution.
What could be plainer? The problem with macroevolution is that we don't see it - apart from a few trivial cases at the level of the species, and even they're disputed by some authorities. (See here for a refutation of the most common alleged instances of speciation. They don't say anything about cichlids and sticklebacks, though.) Hence because it is unobserved, and because even some evolutionary scientists admit that it is not just a simple extrapolation of microevolution, it is perfectly proper to be skeptical of macroevolution until the details have been fleshed out, at the chemical level - especially if one has powerful prima facie arguments that seem to suggest that it could not occur naturally in the absence of intelligent guidance (e.g. not enough time - as in whale evolution; all observed mutations of the kind required are deleterious - as in the formation of new body plans). (8) Regarding dog breeding experiments, you write:
Also, Torley’s comparison of the Great Dane/Chihuahua skeletons with the human/gorilla skeletons is laughable. It’s not “obvious” at all that the morphological differences in the former are dramatically smaller than in the latter! Between-species differences, with hominin fossils and many other organisms, are routinely based on much, much smaller differences than observed between Great Danes and Chihuahuas! And the difference between Great Danes and Chihuahuas isn’t just a size difference, there are all kinds of differences in skull and jaw shape, for instance. What’s obvious is that Great Danes and Chihuahuas originated with only a few hundred or few thousand years of change, and are “the same” species, whereas humans and gorillas are different genera, and separated by 7 million years. Even if you wanted to say that human morphology and gorilla morphology are twice as different as Great Dane and Chihuahua morphology, or 10 times as different, or 100 times as different, it would still be the case that the rate of macroevolutionary change needed to get gorillas and humans from a common ancestor would be much, much, much slower than the rate of change observed in dogs.
It's not obvious to you that the morphological differences between a Great Dane and a Chihuahua are smaller than those between a human being and a chimpanzee? May I remind you that until the discovery of genetic evidence showing that humans and chimps were 98% identical in sections of DNA that they shared in common, scientists commonly classified human beings in a separate family from the great apes, because the morphological differences between the two were so pronounced. You suggest that if we only had their skeletons to look at, we'd classify Great Danes and Chihuahuas as separate species, and you're probably right. But we certainly wouldn't classify them as separate families: they're both clearly members of the dog family, along with foxes, wolves, jackals and coyotes. The only anatomical differences between them that you mentioned were differences in the skull and jaws. But if you listed the differences between a human being and a chimp, you'd come up with hundreds more. Finally, you argue that given the rapidity with which these breeds appeared, "the rate of macroevolutionary change needed to get gorillas and humans from a common ancestor would be much, much, much slower than the rate of change observed in dogs." But this is just a case of quantitative reductionism. You're treating all morphological differences between organisms as if they're simply quantitative, in the final analysis. For my part, I would dispute the premise that qualitative differences are always reducible to quantitative ones. That needs to be argued for. It overlooks the problems of the viability and/or functionality of intermediate forms, just for starters. More importantly, your objection overlooks the fact that evolution does not simply take place at the anatomical level. Underlying genetic changes need to occur, and these may or may not be capable of quantitative extrapolation. For instance, we don't know if there is a viable life-form from which humans and chimps could have descended, although the fossil evidence suggests that there could well have been. Additionally, your argument fails to take account of the fact that not all trends can be extrapolated indefinitely. For instance, would it be possible to breed a dog who was the same height as a man? I very much doubt it. Finally, your objection ignores the possibility that each "type" of creature may have built-in limits to change, which cannot be transgressed. Is it naturally possible to start with an ape-like creature and breed it, over a period of centuries, into a human being? I very much doubt it. From what I've read about the evolution of the human brain, it seems extremely unlikely. (9) You write in response to lpadron:
Please remember your comment the next time you see someone calling evolution and evolutionists a fraud, claiming that "the emperor has no clothes" with respect to evolution, blaming Darwin and evolutionary theory for the Nazis, etc. Prof. Tour did the last two at least, Torley lauded his comments, and no one even bothered to raise an objection except me.
With regard to Professor Tour's comment that "the emperor has no clothes," it was made in the following context:
When hearing such extrapolations in the academy, when will we cry out, “The emperor has no clothes!”?
It was the extrapolation from microevolution that Tour was objecting to, and as we've seen, many evolutionists share the same objection. Regarding Nazism, Professor Tour objected to the "unnecessarily incendiary portrayals to Nazism, Berlin-walling and church-demolishing in the movie." As for blaming Darwin for the Holocaust, he didn't point the finger of blame. Rather, he quoted a Jewish psychologist, Victor Frankl, as saying that "The gas chambers of Auschwitz were the ultimate consequence of the theory that man is nothing but the product of heredity and environment" - in other words, determinism, NOT Darwinism. What's more, Tour did not endorse Frankl's view. He simply declared: "If Frankl is correct, God help us." I think you have been rather uncharitable in your reading of Professor Tour's online remarks. I suggest that you read his words more carefully in future. I apologize if my tone is a little sharp in this post. Feel free to say what you like about me and my level of scholarship; my only plea is that you show Professor Tour some respect.vjtorley
February 28, 2013
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