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Massimo Pigliucci takes no prisoners in his war on “denialism”

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Remember science philosopher Massimo Pigliucci? Last heard from getting serious about stoicism? Now, at his blog, he is excoriating ”denialism”, including:

The first thing to realize is that the push back against denialism, in all its varied incarnations, is likely to be more successful if we shift the focus from persuading individual members of the public to making political and media elites accountable. This is a major result coming out of Brendan’s research. He showed data set after data set demonstrating two fundamental things: first, large sections of the general public do not respond to the presentation of even highly compelling facts, indeed — as mentioned above — are actually more likely to entrench further into their positions.

Second, whenever one can put pressure on either politicians or the media, they do change their tune, becoming more reasonable and presenting things in a truly (as opposed to artificially) balanced way.

Sure. It’s long since time Americans declared war on the First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Other nationals can push our own Constitutional guarantees into the firing line too. Because that is pretty much what we’d all have to do.

Yet Pigliucci goes on to say, incredibly:

Finally, a note on housekeeping: discussions of denialism, be they about evolution, climate change or genocide, involve a delicate balance between academic freedom and academic integrity [8], as participant Marc Mamigonian pointed out during the Clark proceedings. On the one hand, the academic (and not) freedom of speech of denialists ought to be protected. I am adamantly against laws, popular in Europe and Canada, that criminalize certain types of denialism, like that of the Holocaust. Such laws are clearly poised on a slippery slope that may very well end in a fascistic control of speech by governments and university administrators (though, ironically, that particular danger seems much closer to be realized in the United States at moment, despite the more liberal take that American law has on freedom of speech).

In other words, he wants it both ways; wants something decisive done about doubters and disagree-ers but still wants their academic freedom “(and not) freedom of speech” respected.

Make no mistake about it: denialism in its various forms is a pernicious social phenomenon, with potentially catastrophic consequences for our society. It requires a rallying call for all serious public intellectuals, academic or not, who have the expertise and the stamina to join the fray to make this an even marginally better world for us all. It’s most definitely worth the fight.

No, it doesn’t make any sense, but if these people get the power they want, it won’t need to make sense either.

I have a better idea: Massimo Pigliucci can stop even trying to make “an even marginally better world for us all”. Did anyone ask him to?

While we are here, he also writes,

“…my best moments as a debater (against Institute for Creation Research’s Duane Gish, or Discovery Institute’s Jonathan Wells) came when I was able to show the audience that these people were consciously lying to them.”

Well, if the story about Wells is really one of his best moments, the reader might be well advised to have a look at this rebuttal.

Oh wait. Rebuttal? But isn’t rebuttal a problem? Should you even be reading it?

Or this either?: Here’s Jonathan Wells on destroying Darwinism – and responding to attacks on his character and motives

Well, as kairosfocus likes to say, denial is a river in Egypt. Actually, it’s an accusation of last resort in most cases, when the defenders of a dying or problematic idea can no longer just ignore their opponents, so try to silence them.

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Note: In Canada, we recently abolished a notorious law of the type Pigliucci refers to, Section 13. The best authority on why we had to do that is (Jewish) lawyer Ezra Levant. Such laws virtually never accomplish their well-meaning goals, but they do create pernicious side effects. For example, malicious nobodies become victims and/or heroes, civil servants become thought police, and points of view that should just be banished from polite society acquire a certain cachet. Once again, our hard-earned tax dollars at work.

Comments
Mung can't even manage to post his comments on the correct thread.keith s
October 31, 2014
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Meanwhile, in other news, keiths asks, "why read the book?"Mung
October 31, 2014
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I disagree with your assessment of being uncharitable. I’m pretty sure that I didn’t attribute anything to Dr. Pigliucci that he didn’t say. Unless my quotations weren’t correct. You ascribed bizarre, hostile motives to him with no textual or logical support. As I said, if you don’t like what he wrote, respond to what he wrote. Putting words in his mouth and complaining about them is uncharitable. (And if you think he really meant what you said, as opposed to what he said, then please explain why rather than simply asserting it.) Making either of the two entities accountable to the public at large, wouldn’t be a change from what is currently the status-quo. Politicians are already dependent upon the popular vote to be installed and remain in power. Media elites are dependent upon their viewers and readers to “keep the lights on” so to speak. If you have given up on “…persuading individual members of the public…”, then you don’t have that option for whom to be accountable. I understood this argument the first time around. It’s not responsive to what Pigliucci wrote. He’s not saying that we need to change the structure of the country so that politicians and the media become generally accountable to the public. He’s saying the public should start exercising the power it has specifically to hold those bodies accountable for denialism. You’re interpreting his article as a call for an anti-speech regime on the strength of this unsupported assertion: he must mean that we’ll give this power to the government, because the people already have it, so it would be redundant to ask them to have that power. But you’ve misinterpreted his point: of course the people have this power. He thinks they should exercise it. In the U.S.A. the Constitution and other legislative acts impose accountability upon the politician. They are accountable to the citizenry. It’s not particularly relevant, but as an aside, the constitution is not a “legislative act.” Dr. Pigliucci isn’t happy with the status-quo, or so I infer from his opinion piece. Otherwise, there would be no talk of “suggestions” to remedy the situation. If those entities are already directly or indirectly accountable to the public, then there is no point in trying to make them accountable to the public. You infer a lot of things, but they seem to have more to do with your fears than what Pigliucci actually wrote. There is a point to making suggestions. People advocate for such accountability all the time. Boycott this company! Vote for the other guy! Donate to my PAC! Those are all suggestions that work within the existing civil regime, rather than requiring the kind of bizarre and drastic changes you “infer” Pigliucci is asking for. Can you point to anything specific that he actually wrote that supports your wild assumptions?
No, it doesn’t. When people complained that the View hired Jenny McCarthy, they wanted to hold her accountable for her anti-vaccine activism. If the network had fired her right away, it wouldn’t “necessarily entail a loss of freedom” for her. Nothing about accountability necessarily equates to loss of freedom. This assumption is necessary for the later leaps you make, but it doesn’t make any sense.
I don’t understand the analogy you are using. I fail to see how it rebuts my argument concerning accountability.
First, I’m establishing that your assertion that “accountability” necessarily entails a “loss of freedom” is false (and very obviously false). Unless “being on the View even though the owners don’t want you to be” is a freedom, in which case the word has become so broad as to lose all meaning. Second, it’s pointing out that someone can ask for accountability without infringing upon the First Amendment, or trying to make the media accountable to anyone other than consumers. Since that’s possible (and, again, obvious) your assumptions that Pigliucci is actually asking for Pravda-style media controls is unsupported and vastly uncharitable. To me reading what you have written indicates that they wanted to punish Ms. McCarthy for her views. Which isn’t necessarily the same thing as being held accountable. You don’t always have a negative outcome from being held accountable. It simply means that you are liable for your actions, inactions, publications, etc… I’m having a hard time understanding you. Asking a show to fire a host because you object to her advocacy isn’t holding her liable for her actions? Why not? I will concede that despite an imposition of accountability placed upon you, you are still free to act or say what you please. However, in being made accountable to some entity, unless you wish to suffer punishment, you will not say or do things that would adversely affect you at such time that you are called to give an account. Chilling effects are real, and a problem. But unless they come from the power of the state, the First Amendment isn’t implicated. Insofar as they come from private advocacy, there’s a balancing act between condemning them as suppressive of dissent and acknowledging that they are a form of dissent. “Let’s all remember that this politician once opposed interracial marriage, so no one should listen to his opinion on gay marriage” has a potential chilling effect. But it’s also a perfectly legitimate oppositional message. Holding Inhoffe accountable for his views doesn’t mean “not voting for him and/or supporting his opposition…” rather it means calling him to give you an account of his actions and things that he has said. You can define these words however you like. But please be aware that you are using extremely constrained definitions that don’t have much to do with how the words are generally used. Colloquially, “accountability” is often synonymous with “liability.” That’s especially true when we talk of “holding someone accountable,” as Pigliucci does. I don’t see any reason to believe that Pigliucci is using your strange, limited meaning of “accountability.” His article would be fairly bizarre if he was; he wants politicians to report their views to the public? So that the state can punish them? I don’t think so. There is no such “power of the public”. People don’t decide whom they get to “hold to account”, not in the U.S.A. at least. People will either voluntarily submit to the authority of others (e.g. markets, social settings, contractual obligations, employment), or accountability is imposed upon them via legislation or regulation (e.g government and/or governing bodies placing you under the jurisdiction of an oversight committee; municipal building codes; water conservation districts). You are free (usually) to not associate with individuals with whose views you do not support, but that doesn’t mean those individuals are accountable to you. You have no position of authority over them. We have elections, and fundraising for those elections. These are two powerful tools for holding politicians accountable (or responsible for their views, if you prefer). Buying power also gives us tools to hold corporations accountable. You can even hold private citizens accountable by, for example, criticizing them publicly. None of that entails turning the media into Pravda or giving the state the power to punish people for their opinions. It’s remarkable how disconnected the criticism of Pigliucci in this thread is from what he actually wrote. Virtually none of the terrible opinions ascribed to him come from what he wrote.Learned Hand
October 31, 2014
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Silver Asiatic, Political pressure against opinions is what he is talking about. Yes, if you mean political pressure coming from voters. No, if you mean political pressure coming from the state. Its perfectly legal for example to organize a boycott against an organization because you don’t like their ideas. And it's not at all a violation of the First Amendment, which is an important point News seems to prefer not to face. But you can’t also pretend that you favor a free expression of ideas in society. It’d especially hypocritical for academics to advocate pressure against ideas they don’t like. Why? "That's a bad idea, and I don't like the fact that you support it" is itself the free expression of an idea. The marketplace of ideas has never excluded criticism.Learned Hand
October 31, 2014
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@18 I disagree with your assessment of being uncharitable. I'm pretty sure that I didn't attribute anything to Dr. Pigliucci that he didn't say. Unless my quotations weren't correct.
To people and the media. That seems relatively obvious; making them accountable to government would be a hugely significant argument, and not casually tossed-off. People hold media and political elites accountable all the time, by not voting for them, giving money to their opposition, changing the channel, writing letters to the editor, complaining on Facebook, and so on and so forth.
I think you missed the thrust of my argument, I quote it below.
Making either of the two entities accountable to the public at large, wouldn’t be a change from what is currently the status-quo. Politicians are already dependent upon the popular vote to be installed and remain in power. Media elites are dependent upon their viewers and readers to “keep the lights on” so to speak. If you have given up on “…persuading individual members of the public…”, then you don’t have that option for whom to be accountable.
In the U.S.A. the Constitution and other legislative acts impose accountability upon the politician. They are accountable to the citizenry. They will punish or reward the politician after being given their account. The "Market" imposes accountability upon the media (we'll ignore some regulatory impositions for the sake of argument). The Market says that the media are accountable to their shareholders (we'll ignore sole proprietorships). The media could spew whatever they wish as their content. The people could simply refuse to watch their shows or read their publications. The people could complain all they want to whomever would listen. It wouldn't matter so long as the shareholders are happy with what is occurring. However, since the shareholders are typically interested in valuation for their shares, the shareholders would punish any behavior that adversely affects that share value. These scenarios, are the status-quo. Dr. Pigliucci isn't happy with the status-quo, or so I infer from his opinion piece. Otherwise, there would be no talk of "suggestions" to remedy the situation. If those entities are already directly or indirectly accountable to the public, then there is no point in trying to make them accountable to the public.
No, it doesn’t. When people complained that the View hired Jenny McCarthy, they wanted to hold her accountable for her anti-vaccine activism. If the network had fired her right away, it wouldn’t “necessarily entail a loss of freedom” for her. Nothing about accountability necessarily equates to loss of freedom. This assumption is necessary for the later leaps you make, but it doesn’t make any sense.
I don't understand the analogy you are using. I fail to see how it rebuts my argument concerning accountability. To me reading what you have written indicates that they wanted to punish Ms. McCarthy for her views. Which isn't necessarily the same thing as being held accountable. You don't always have a negative outcome from being held accountable. It simply means that you are liable for your actions, inactions, publications, etc... You are held accountable for your job performance, as an example, and upon review (performance reviews would be your accounting) you are found to be deserving a pay increase and/or bonus. I will concede that despite an imposition of accountability placed upon you, you are still free to act or say what you please. However, in being made accountable to some entity, unless you wish to suffer punishment, you will not say or do things that would adversely affect you at such time that you are called to give an account. When you are held to account, you will either be punished or rewarded based upon your account. That is the loss of freedom to which I am referring. You are slaved to the constraints and impositions of the entities to which you are accountable. Another way to put this is to say that others (those to whom you must account) have authority over you. You serve at their leisure. You can contravene their will, but you do so at your peril.
Indeed, that doesn’t make much sense. Which might lead one to suspect that it’s not the point Pigliucci was making. Politicians are accountable to voters and donors. Holding Inhoffe accountable for his views means not voting for him and/or supporting his opposition, directly or indirectly.
Holding Inhoffe accountable for his views doesn't mean "not voting for him and/or supporting his opposition..." rather it means calling him to give you an account of his actions and things that he has said. You may decide that you like the account he's given, or you may decide to punish him for what he's said or done by "not voting for him and/or supporting his opposition...".
Of course you do. Much of the public supports Pigliucci’s causes, and they have the power of the public to hold people accountable for the views they oppose. Nothing controversial about it.
There is no such "power of the public". People don't decide whom they get to "hold to account", not in the U.S.A. at least. People will either voluntarily submit to the authority of others (e.g. markets, social settings, contractual obligations, employment), or accountability is imposed upon them via legislation or regulation (e.g government and/or governing bodies placing you under the jurisdiction of an oversight committee; municipal building codes; water conservation districts). You are free (usually) to not associate with individuals with whose views you do not support, but that doesn't mean those individuals are accountable to you. You have no position of authority over them.
You can suppose whatever you like. He didn’t say it or imply it; it’s coming only from your imagination.
Yes, it is my hypothesis, hence the choice of the word "suppose". What's your point? I've not attributed it Dr. Pigliucci as I explicitly state "I suppose...".
Since the sentence you quoted is referring directly to a specific piece of research, you could answer that question. But it’s more fun to make things up, ascribe them to him, and then complain.
What have I "ascribed" to Dr. Pigliucci? I've provided direct quotations for Dr. Pigliucci and then my own suppositions. I've not ascribed anything to Dr. Pigliucci. I don't believe Brendan Nyham's research is generally available as of yet. At least a Google Search doesn't turn up anything published for that particular
If you and News don’t like what Pigliucci wrote, why not just respond to it? It seems more respectable than scribbling a manifesto in the margins of his article, signing his name to it, then complaining about his radical writings.
Would these blog postings not represent a "response"? I believe you are insinuating the existence of "...a manifesto in the margins..." and "...radical writings...". You use supposition as the basis for your insinuations rather than provide evidence of such attributions.ciphertext
October 31, 2014
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News said: "...well, he is a philosopher, and they are not known for practicality – he does not want to give the idea up." News, do you feel that way about all philosophers or only the ones who don't share your ID-Creation beliefs? For example, would you say that Stephen Meyer is not known for practicality – he does not want to give the [ID-Creation] idea up. How do you feel about the Catholic philosophers listed on this Wikipedia page? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_philosophers_and_theologiansAstroman
October 31, 2014
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Political pressure against opinions is what he is talking about. Its perfectly legal for example to organize a boycott against an organization because you don't like their ideas. But you can't also pretend that you favor a free expression of ideas in society. It'd especially hypocritical for academics to advocate pressure against ideas they don't like.Silver Asiatic
October 30, 2014
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It is heavy on concepts but light on implementation details. You seem to have filled them in for him, in a remarkably uncharitable way. The UD crowd is very hostile to Dr. Pigliucci; rather than respond to what he wrote, you are apparently happy to condemn him for what he might theoretically have meant (if, of course, one ignores the fact that he didn’t say the things being ascribed to him and specifically disclaimed them). What would entail making political and media elites “accountable”? Also, accountable to whom? To people and the media. That seems relatively obvious; making them accountable to government would be a hugely significant argument, and not casually tossed-off. People hold media and political elites accountable all the time, by not voting for them, giving money to their opposition, changing the channel, writing letters to the editor, complaining on Facebook, and so on and so forth. Making anybody “accountable” necessarily entails a loss of freedom for that person or entity. No, it doesn’t. When people complained that the View hired Jenny McCarthy, they wanted to hold her accountable for her anti-vaccine activism. If the network had fired her right away, it wouldn’t “necessarily entail a loss of freedom” for her. Nothing about accountability necessarily equates to loss of freedom. This assumption is necessary for the later leaps you make, but it doesn’t make any sense. In polite societies, that would mean regulations with threat of fines or jail time for failing to adhere to the regulations. In less that polite societies, the punishment could mean really long jail times or death for you and your family and friends. On Alpha Centauri, maybe it means being spaced without an air supply. None of that has anything to do with what Pigliucci wrote. Would you make politicians accountable to the government? That doesn’t seem like a very good solution. Essentially, in that scenario politicians would be accountable to themselves. Indeed, that doesn’t make much sense. Which might lead one to suspect that it’s not the point Pigliucci was making. Politicians are accountable to voters and donors. Holding Inhoffe accountable for his views means not voting for him and/or supporting his opposition, directly or indirectly. Would you make the media accountable to the government? That would severely curtail the ability of the media to be anything but the mouthpiece for a government. Again, you can’t point to where Pigluicci actually says anything like this, because he doesn’t. Media are accountable to consumers and advertisers. And those avenues are frequently used to hold media accountable. So frequently, in fact, that why on earth would you jump straight to Pravda rather than dealing with the obvious point Pigliucci was making? If you have given up on “…persuading individual members of the public…”, then you don’t have that option for whom to be accountable. Of course you do. Much of the public supports Pigliucci’s causes, and they have the power of the public to hold people accountable for the views they oppose. Nothing controversial about it. I suppose Dr. Pigliucci would advocate that there should be a cabal, consortium, order, group, etc… to which the politicians and media would be held accountable. That would require very deep financial resources in a market economy. Enough to purchase majority shares (common stock) in all of the media and to purchase the privately held media. They could then use that media to bend the politicians to their collective will, while using the media outlets as a way to shame the denialists into accepting their views. I think there is either a novel or movie that follows that plot line. You can suppose whatever you like. He didn’t say it or imply it; it’s coming only from your imagination. What is meant by “pressure”? Since the sentence you quoted is referring directly to a specific piece of research, you could answer that question. But it’s more fun to make things up, ascribe them to him, and then complain. What is left but a bureaucracy or cabal of individuals? Chupacabras? I dunno. We’re way outside of what he wrote. If you and News don’t like what Pigliucci wrote, why not just respond to it? It seems more respectable than scribbling a manifesto in the margins of his article, signing his name to it, then complaining about his radical writings.Learned Hand
October 30, 2014
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Dr. Pigliucci's OP, to which News kindly linked, appears to be a "call to action" rather than a "plan of action". It is heavy on concepts but light on implementation details. I suppose that if he is genuinely interested in erradicating "denialism", rather than simply generating an opinion piece and thus "traffic" to his blog, then he will provide additional posts with more actionable items (a plan laid out) to accomplish such a goal. That said, I would be interested to hear his elaboration on the steps he laid out. For instance:
The first thing to realize is that the push back against denialism, in all its varied incarnations, is likely to be more successful if we shift the focus from persuading individual members of the public to making political and media elites accountable.
What would entail making political and media elites "accountable"? Also, accountable to whom? Making anybody "accountable" necessarily entails a loss of freedom for that person or entity. In polite societies, that would mean regulations with threat of fines or jail time for failing to adhere to the regulations. In less that polite societies, the punishment could mean really long jail times or death for you and your family and friends. Would you make politicians accountable to the government? That doesn't seem like a very good solution. Essentially, in that scenario politicians would be accountable to themselves. Would you make the media accountable to the government? That would severely curtail the ability of the media to be anything but the mouthpiece for a government. Examples would be Pravda for the former Soviet Union, or China Daily for the Peoples Republic of China. Making either of the two entities accountable to the public at large, wouldn't be a change from what is currently the status-quo. Politicians are already dependent upon the popular vote to be installed and remain in power. Media elites are dependent upon their viewers and readers to "keep the lights on" so to speak. If you have given up on "...persuading individual members of the public...", then you don't have that option for whom to be accountable. I suppose Dr. Pigliucci would advocate that there should be a cabal, consortium, order, group, etc... to which the politicians and media would be held accountable. That would require very deep financial resources in a market economy. Enough to purchase majority shares (common stock) in all of the media and to purchase the privately held media. They could then use that media to bend the politicians to their collective will, while using the media outlets as a way to shame the denialists into accepting their views. I think there is either a novel or movie that follows that plot line. If not, there should be! His second suggestion needs some clarification as well.
Second, whenever one can put pressure on either politicians or the media, they do change their tune, becoming more reasonable and presenting things in a truly (as opposed to artificially) balanced way.
What is meant by "pressure"? Presumably, the pressure must come from the entity to which the politician or media are to be held accountable. However, as his first suggestion indicated, that wouldn't be the general public. What is left but a bureaucracy or cabal of individuals? What would the pressure be? In order for either group to feel pressure, they would need to be threatened. How would the threats be made and what sort of threats would they be? I think that is largely dependent upon the group that is responsible for holding the politicians and media "accountable". His third suggestion appears to be more an observation than a suggestion.
Third, and most crucially, there is plenty of evidence from political science studies that the public does quickly rally behind a unified political leadership.
Perhaps he didn't mean to make this a part of his list of suggestions as an independent list entity. It is would fit better with his second suggestion. His fourth suggestion claims to hold a "blueprint for all denialist reactions".
Another thing we can do about denialism: we should learn from the detailed study of successful cases and see what worked and how it can be applied to other instances.
He specifically references the tobacco industry.
Indeed, the story of the tobacco industry’s response to the initial health reports that put their business at risk (as early as the 1952 Readers’ Digest publication of a report critical of the industry, entitled “Cancer by the carton”) gives us the blueprint for pretty much all denialist reactions.
The tobacco industry likely weren't denialists, so much as they were frauds. I doubt you could make a case that the tobacco industry actually "denied" (vs. plausibly denied) knowing that their product was dangerous to consumers. I suspect that at some point they came to accept the prevailing thought on the subject. It's hard to ignore the demonstrable and repeatable evidence of correlation between carcinogen ingestion and death by cancer. However, they perpetuated a false advertisement to their consumers, knowing full well that their product would lead to health problems over time. However, it is important to note that the Tobacco Industry was held accountable to the federal government (various agencies). The general populace has held them accountable also, to a degree. You can still purchase tobacco products for sale and consumption. I do believe that the Tobacco Industry has suffered financially for their fraud, but has not be eradicated. If Dr. Pigliucci has decided that it would be better to target politicians and media as entities to be "held accountable", then you cannot use the Tobacco Industry as your blueprint for handling "denialist reactions" (which I don't believe you could in any event) for the reasons I explained above.ciphertext
October 30, 2014
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I think the irony here is that Pigliucci's suggestions, particularly around science education would surely benefit both sides here. I suppose there could be a disagreement about who's practicing "denalism" here (obviously each side is accusing the other on the topics of evolution and intelligent design at least). But I would hope when it comes to topics such as denying the holocaust that everybody here, agrees that such forms of denialism not only do really exist, but are egregious and should be addressed. It would be interesting to see what others think of Pigliucci's proposals or whether there are other ideas for combating denialism like this.roding
October 29, 2014
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(Sorry if this double posts, it seems to be hanging.) While he doesn't explicitly say in his article what that accountability looks like, he certainly didn't say it would be outlawing speech or otherwise applying the power of government to punish it. You assume that, but without evidence of his intent. We don't have to guess at what he means. He does give an example of the kind of pressure he's talking about: that identified in Brendan Nyhan's research. I haven't read Nyhan's work, but I'm very, very skeptical that he was proposing using the power of government to suppress denialism. I think what happened is that News made the common error of conflating "someone disapproving of speech I like" with "First Amendment violation." But those things aren't synonymous. Wouldn't good journalism entail identifying specific factors justifying your use of the (vastly) overblown "war on the First Amendment" rhetoric? Once again, Pigliucci hasn't actually said anything you can point to that's hostile to the First Amendment. SA gave it a good effort, but making speakers "accountable" isn't a 1A violation unless the accountability comes in the form of government prohibiting or punishing speech. Pigliucci hasn't said anything that justifies taking that logical leap on his behalf. In other words, you're criticizing him for something he (a) didn't say, and (b) specifically disclaimed. Is that good journalism, News?Learned Hand
October 29, 2014
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While he doesn't explicitly say in his article what that accountability looks like, he certainly didn't say it would be outlawing speech or otherwise applying the power of government to punish it. You assume that, but without evidence of his intent. We don't have to guess at what he means. He does give an example of the kind of pressure he's talking about: that identified in Brendan Nyhan's research. I haven't read Nyhan's work, but I'm very, very skeptical that he was proposing using the power of government to suppress denialism. I think what happened is that News made the common error of conflating "someone disapproving of speech I like" with "First Amendment violation." But those things aren't synonymous. Wouldn't good journalism entail identifying specific factors justifying your use of the (vastly) overblown "war on the First Amendment" rhetoric? Once again, Pigliucci hasn't actually said anything you can point to that's hostile to the First Amendment. SA gave it a good effort, but making speakers "accountable" isn't a 1A violation unless the accountability comes in the form of government prohibiting or punishing speech. Pigliucci hasn't said anything that justifies taking that logical leap on his behalf. In other words, you're criticizing him for something he (a) didn't say, and (b) specifically disclaimed. Is that good journalism, News?Learned Hand
October 29, 2014
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While he doesn't explicitly say in his article what that accountability looks like, he certainly didn't say it would be outlawing speech or otherwise applying the power of government to punish it. You assume that, but without evidence of his intent. We don't have to guess at what he means. He does give an example of the kind of pressure he's talking about: that identified in Brendan Nyhan's research. I haven't read Nyhan's work, but I'm very, very skeptical that he was proposing using the power of government to suppress denialism. I think what happened is that News made the common error of conflating "someone disapproving of speech I like" with "First Amendment violation." But those things aren't synonymous. Wouldn't good journalism entail identifying specific factors justifying your use of the (vastly) overblown "war on the First Amendment" rhetoric? Once again, Pigliucci hasn't actually said anything you can point to that's hostile to the First Amendment. SA gave it a good effort, but making speakers "accountable" isn't a 1A violation unless the accountability comes in the form of government prohibiting or punishing speech. Pigliucci hasn't said anything that justifies taking that logical leap on his behalf. In other words, you're criticizing him for something he (a) didn't say, and (b) specifically disclaimed. Is that good journalism, News?Learned Hand
October 29, 2014
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shift the focus from persuading individual members of the public to making political and media elites accountableSilver Asiatic
October 29, 2014
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News, "Learned Hand at 5, the only way the opponents of “denialism” can in fact accomplish any of their goals is by limiting the rights of others to free expression." Except that Pigliucci explicitly says how he wants to accomplish his goals. Not only does he advocate "limiting the rights of other to free expression," he explicitly disclaims it. "Roding, when people say – in this context – they want to “influence the media”: Pigliucci probably doesn’t realize it (and I suspect you don’t either), but many of them will turn out to mean restricting journalists’ access, bugging their phones, politically targeted audits, government interference, etc." In other words, Pigliucci isn't advocating the terrible things you're ascribing to him in the piece above. If he doesn't actually want the government to penalize denialism, how is he advocating "a war on the First Amendment?" "Pigliucci seems to sort of get this but – well, he is a philosopher, and they are not known for practicality – he does not want to give the idea up." I think you may be projecting a bit here. Pigliucci clearly isn't showing the kind of hostility to free speech you accused him of. Rather than saying, "I misread the article," you don't want to give the idea up. So now you're accusing him of... what, other people's attacks on journalists? It's not clear how your various accusations connect here. Is Pigliucci actually hostile to the First Amendment? If so, can you explain how, clearly and concisely? If not, is it possible you made a mistake?Learned Hand
October 29, 2014
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Roding, when people say – in this context – they want to “influence the media”: Pigliucci probably doesn’t realize it (and I suspect you don’t either), but many of them will turn out to mean restricting journalists’ access, bugging their phones, politically targeted audits, government interference, etc. There is a LOT of that going on right now and it has gotten way worse in recent years.
Again, in reading the whole article, there seems to be an emphasis on education and persuading of minds. Perhaps Pigliucci means what he says doesn't have any subterfuge in mind. I'm sure you right that there are those who do want to restrict journalists' access, but I do not get this impression at all from Pigliucci himself. Your general concerns may be valid, but I'm not sure it is fair to imply that Piglicci has these intents. Perhaps you should contact him and let him speak for himself? And besides why not if he wants to make the world a better place? Does he need yours or my approval?roding
October 29, 2014
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Roding, when people say - in this context - they want to "influence the media": Pigliucci probably doesn't realize it (and I suspect you don't either), but many of them will turn out to mean restricting journalists' access, bugging their phones, politically targeted audits, government interference, etc. There is a LOT of that going on right now and it has gotten way worse in recent years. http://www.mercatornet.com/connecting/view/15045 Look, if all someone wants is to persuade a journalist of something, well ... stuff spills into my inbox 24/7 about everything from the paranormal to preventing water waste. No one needs to change or do anything if that's all they really want. These people are mainly upset because journalists are free to listen to the other side safely too. News
October 29, 2014
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Pigliucci says:
The first thing to realize is that the push back against denialism, in all its varied incarnations, is likely to be more successful if we shift the focus from persuading individual members of the public to making political and media elites accountable.
It's a strange statement. He wants to "shift the focus from persuading individual members of the public" and move to making political and media elites accountable. That's a very slippery statement. Media elites are "individual members of the public" also. So, what he really seems to be saying is "don't bother trying to convince denialists with argumentation". He actually points to that - according to him, nobody changed their mind after debate conferences. So, where does that leave his "accountability" for media and political 'elites'? Usually, that means using political "pressure" (his word) to silence opposition. OldArmy #1 basically said it all right there.Silver Asiatic
October 29, 2014
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News
Learned Hand at 5, the only way the opponents of “denialism” can in fact accomplish any of their goals is by limiting the rights of others to free expression.
From reading the article, it seems Pigliucci is suggesting several solutions - influencing politicians, seeking allies, learning from success stories, and different kinds of science education. I did not see any explicit or implicit suggestion that he is proposing limits on free expression. Quite the opposite in fact. I especially like his ideas on education, which I would hope would resonate with both sides of the argument:
Is there anything that can be done in this respect? I personally like the idea of teaching “science appreciation” classes in high school and college [2], as opposed to more traditional (usually rather boring, both as a student and as a teacher) science instruction. Unless one is going to major in a scientific field, it will do little good to cram a lot of science facts into his brain, but exposing him to the beauty as well as inner workings (and limits) of the scientific enterprise might. Something like that goes also for writing about science for the general public, where too often the picture presented is one of speculations asserted as facts (think string theory) and where the reader is told about the results but not about the messy, fascinating process that led to them. Science should be portrayed as a human story of failure and discovery, not as a body of barely comprehensible facts arrived at by epistemic priests. </blockquote?
roding
October 29, 2014
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Learned Hand at 5, the only way the opponents of "denialism" can in fact accomplish any of their goals is by limiting the rights of others to free expression. Pigliucci seems to sort of get this but - well, he is a philosopher, and they are not known for practicality - he does not want to give the idea up.News
October 29, 2014
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Pressuring a politician to "change their tune" is not making "war on the First Amendment." If anything, it's more like petitioning the government, one of the core freedoms the First Amendment protects. Where does Piglucci propose or support laws abridging the freedom speech? I see you complaining about that, but no examples of it.Learned Hand
October 29, 2014
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Pigliucci is one of those scientists who agree we haven't a clue as how macro-evolution has happened. So who is in denial, fellow evolutionary biologists?jerry
October 29, 2014
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I thought he wasn't quite the ticket from a reference to his ideas in an earlier thread-header.Axel
October 29, 2014
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Trouble is, his war is a paint-ball war, colouring reality in colours not known in the spectrum of this world's reality. Nobody's going to lie down for his paint-ball fusillades, hence his cells are empty and he's whingeing about enforcement.Axel
October 29, 2014
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When the evolutionist can't win in the court of public opinion, he attempts to enforce belief in his arguments by legal coercion.OldArmy94
October 29, 2014
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