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Materialist “Ethics” Show Their Colors

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For a materialist the term “ethics” is empty of objective meaning, and in a post from a couple of years ago I pointed out the absurdity of materialist “bioethics.”

After all, when pushed to the wall to ground his ethical opinions in anything other than his personal opinion, the materialist ethicist has nothing to say. Why should I pay someone $68,584 to say there is no real ultimate ethical difference between one moral response and another because they must both lead ultimately to the same place – nothingness.  I am not being facetious here. I really do want to know why someone would pay someone to give them the “right answer” when that person asserts that the word “right” is ultimately meaningless.

I have returned to this theme a few times.  See here, here and here.  At the end of the day, for the materialist, ethical discussions always boil down to might makes right, and the strong impose their preferences on the weak.

Over at ENV Wesley Smith highlights a recent example of this playing out at a practical level.  Materialist “bioethicists” are now saying to doctors:  “You think killing people is wrong?  We will coerce you into violating your conscience or drum you out of the profession.”

Like I said, “materialist ethics” is an oxymoron and always covers “might makes right.”

Comments
rvb8 @26 retorted
You want more misery? I don’t!
You misunderstand. I'm not arguing with you, I'm agreeing with you that from a materialist and evolutionist point of view, abortion and infanticide make perfect sense! From the animal world, we can clearly see that evolution dispassionately recycles infants into the food chain when necessary. Humans have been able to add medical research and organ donation as legitimate and ethical recycling. But using unwanted or unsupportable fetuses, babies, and toddlers as highly compatible and delicious human protein that can save the lives of adolescents and adults who otherwise suffer painful starvation is beyond question. So obviously, yes! The suffering of unwanted babies should most certainly be ended and their remaining tissue should be put to better use. It's not my view, but I admit you made a good point. -QQuerius
September 27, 2016
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Kairos, I'm just guessing but,you don't travel much do you? Here's some advice, don't go to Russia or Eastern Europe, don't go to Africa, or many Sth American countries too, don't go Africa, and don't go to the Middle East or SE Asia, and above all don't go to India. If you did you would see plainly why the world can not feasibly cope with the people we have to day, and your solution is 'keep'im comming'? My father said I could have a puppy, if I looked after my pet rabbit well. God should step in and say; "No more babies until you learn how to look after the ones you have!" It's not that I support abortion, I most certainly do not. However you have no answer other than, 'keep'im comming'. Sorry, that is not an answer however immmoral you claim abortion to be.rvb8
September 27, 2016
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RVB8, mass murder in the womb and associated perversion of law, government, courts, media, education etc to pretend that this is not the worst holocaust in history cannot be the answer. And the dynamics would change, where 800+ million dead is a calculation on 40 years based on Guttmacher; as was discussed earlier -- a calc you and others could not dispute when it was substantiated. No, this is not merely my figure, there is sobering reality here, the reality of half a generation slaughtered in the womb. First, we need to face what we have done then we can have a sober discussion, starting with getting rid of the pretence that pointing out that there has been a mass slaughter of posterity in the womb is an "anti-" movement. Or, have you forgotten that the movement to abolish the slave trade was derided as being against the Royal Navy and its chief pool for recruits? The RN survived the loss of the slave trade, and the reality is that "most people are accidents," but most of us who have arrived have been loved, nurtured and raised into reasonably decent and healthy productive and creative persons. Where, people are the most valuable resource of all, the intelligent and creative assets that turn other things into valuable things. The notion that there would be 800 million unwanted children who would become a burden on the state and/or families, breaking down "sustainability" is a fallacy covering a monstrous reality. Plainly, the central evil of our time, the root of corruption of our civilisation and consciences from which many others have sprung. KF PS: Getting around the circularity in Bruntland's definition, sustainable development better and more fairly meets our needs today and tomorrow. The ethical and equity components cannot be subtracted, and the undermining of the ethical due to the imposition of inherently amoral evolutionary materialism dressed up in a lab coat is a serious danger, not an advance.kairosfocus
September 27, 2016
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john, you do realise that the world does not reside State side, and that anti-abortionists desperately try to push aid-linked anti-abortion policy through the UN. Whether or not good Christian couples can't adopt, and are desperate to adopt, is neither here nor there. Kairos is fond of his 800 million figure; do you know of 800 million Christians willing to adopt? I am told the US alone has 30-40 million abortions a year, do you know of 30-40 million good Chrisitians willing to take them in? No! You do not! I am saying that I will take the anti-abortion side seriously if they will put their words into practice. Making a worldwide law banning abortion would be a disaster for two important unanswerable reasons; 1) this is not sustainable, and 2) no one wants these extra kids, even good Christian families. However, if someone has an adopted child (hopefully Kairos, as he appears to be loudest on the topic), I will take them more seriously on the subject. Until then, the fact that you know of several good Christian families desperate to adopt, is the metaphorical 'drop in the bucket', trivial!rvb8
September 27, 2016
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Sometime ago on another thread (I don’t remember where) I wrote this:
I have actually know a number of Christian couples who wanted to adopt a child but had a difficult time finding a child to adopt. In a high rate abortion country like the U.S. it appears the demand far surpasses the supply. Some of the couple I knew spent a small fortune to adopt a child from overseas. (Anyone else have that experience?) Maybe rvb8 needs to become a little bit better acquainted with the facts.
It appears that he still hasn’t done his homework.john_a_designer
September 27, 2016
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Have you adopted an unwanted child Querius? There are millions, and millions; truly! You want more misery? I don't! I am not trying to be 'smart', or nasty here. I am genuinely interested in the faithful's solution to this quandry of 'unwanted' children.rvb8
September 27, 2016
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The only evolution-based ethical objection to abortion and infanticide as I observed in #7 is that the parents and their community didn't eat what they killed. The taking of life under some circumstances without "frying up some baby burgers" is mildly unethical in evolutionary terms---perhaps wasteful is a more accurate description. However, materialists in those circumstances can still justify their decisions by offering their aborted offspring and unwanted toddlers to the medical community as organ donors, subjects for medical experiments (a cure for cancer comes to mind), and possibly beauty products (remember, we're talking about reproduction in an evolutionary environment). That the materialists here are obviously comfortable with these logical conclusions demonstrates their courageous commitment to the materialist ideology without hypocrisy. -QQuerius
September 27, 2016
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TWSYF, and WJM, I don't claim to be a 'conceptual' argument expert. Clearly I am not. Those arguments are tedious, inconclusive, and speculative at best. At worst they amount to planned deception, or if you don't like my conceptual construction, 'lying'. So, let's try this one more time! Hands up who has adopted an unwanted child! If not, please stop your endless 'moral high ground' shinnannigans, it's embarassing. Also, when is Ann Gauger and Dembski coming out with their latest 'proofs', some science would be a nice environmental shift.rvb8
September 27, 2016
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Marfin @ 21 FYI Heartlander
September 27, 2016
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WJM @ 18: rvb8 has an ongoing problem with conceptual arguments. Period.Truth Will Set You Free
September 27, 2016
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rvb8 - As you have not replied to my post re natural selection and paedophilia, I can only assume you have no explanation apart from " well I feel ". All of us need to go where the evidence leads and forget about where our feelings, desires and wants are leading us. So rvb8 are you willing to go with the evidence or are you that aggrieved by the thoughts that there actually could be a God.Marfin
September 27, 2016
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1Kings 22 is a bit of history that offers great insight into how an individual can willfully do what he wants, even when it is contrary to obvious truth. And even when it means the difference between life and death. Thomas Nagel actually, in a moment of honesty, came to terms with the stubborn, free-will, and "damn the evidence", aspect of his atheism:
I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.
-Thomas Nagel, Evolutionary Naturalism and the Fear of Religion (emphasis mine).bb
September 27, 2016
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RVB8: FYI http://kairosfocus.blogspot.com/2015/06/acts-27-test-14-andrew-breitbarts.html . . . this is a serious issue reflective of what Plato warned against in The Laws Bk X 2350+ years ago, which you studiously avoid. KFkairosfocus
September 27, 2016
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rvb8 has an ongoing problem with conceptual arguments that point out the difference between how self-proclaimed atheistic materialists actually act, and how they should act if they acted in accordance with the logical entailments of an atheistic/materialist worldview. Nobody is making any claims about how any self-proclaimed A/M actually acts, or about how they actually think or feel. Just because you call yourself an atheistic materialist doesn't mean you actually think or behave in a manner consistent with the logical entailments of atheistic materialism. Obviously, someone who complains about long posts and is suspicious of detailed philosophical examinations and whose head starts to hurt when contemplating complex ideas cannot be expected to spend the time and effort it requires to actually examine the logical consequences of their own professed worldview, much less care when someone points out that they are acting and thinking and arguing in a manner that conflicts with those premises. All rvb8 knows is that he thinks A/M is true and he believes he is a good, moral person, so therefore A/M must be able to account for the capacity to be a good, moral person. That's the extent of his "logic".William J Murray
September 27, 2016
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Hmmm, to Andrew and bb, I am an atheist and you say I have no ‘reason’ to love (which I do) family and friends. Well, I hate to rain on this (Andrew Ferguson) person’s slack jawed schoolboy analysis, but I do love my family, friends, and the planet; try working that one out:)
rvb8 complains of Andrew Ferguson's "schoolboy" analysis, yet he demonstrates his utter lack of basic reading comprehension. Mr. b8, no one is questioning the love you have for your family and friends. We just point out how it is inconsistent with your worldview. Ferguson again....
A materialist who lived his life according to his professed convictions—understanding himself to have no moral agency at all, seeing his friends and enemies and family as genetically determined robots—wouldn’t just be a materialist: He’d be a psychopath.
You don't live your life according to the logical conclusions of your professed convictions. The fact that you don't, and can't, live this way proves your worldview is absolute rubbish and of no value to you. You don't even believe it truly. The love you have for family and friends demonstrates the inconsistency. Time to be honest with yourself.bb
September 27, 2016
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I don’t think any theist who regularly contributes to or comments on this site has argued that atheists cannot live conventionally moral lives. Indeed, I can think of some individual atheists who do. The argument is that no atheistic world view has a basis for any kind of objective morality or universal human rights.john_a_designer
September 27, 2016
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Marfin @14, The following quotation from Rosenberg supports your point:
If we were selected for niceness, how come there are so many SOBs in the world, and still worse, serial killers, moral monsters, and Adolf Hitlers? Biology has the answer. Remember, perhaps the most profound of Darwin’s observations was that there is always some variation in most heritable traits in every generation. A distribution of variations—often a normal, bell-curve distribution—is the rule and not the exception.
Origenes
September 27, 2016
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rvb8- You say evolution through natural selection produces these emotions, but what you fail to realise is that the same natural selection produces , rapists, murderers, child molesters, and every so called good and bad trait and thought of man. If the material world is all there is and from the big bang to today everything we know has come about by a process of evolution, then evolution is the cause of everything, so please explain to me why natural selection has selected paedophilia as a fitness trait , and why is it then deemed bad.Marfin
September 27, 2016
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Evolution produced these emotions through natural selection. We are shocked by child rape and child abuse because it goes against all of our child rearing inheritance
And accordingly, evolution "produced" rape through natural selection:
Sam Harris:... there are many things about us for which we are naturally selected, which we repudiate in moral terms. For instance, there's nothing more natural than rape. Human beings rape, chimpanzees rape, orangutans rape, rape clearly is part of an evolutionary strategy to get your genes into the next generation if you're a male. You can't move from that Darwinian fact about us to defend rape as a good practice. I mean no-one would be tempted to do that; we have transcended that part of our evolutionary history in repudiating it.
IOW, just like you and other Atheists consider their emotions, thoughts and actions grounded because "evolution produced [it]", a rapist should also consider his/her actions grounded because "evolution produced [it]". Only mental gymnastics can make you think that as an evodelusionist, you can consider one product of evolution "good" and "true", and another "bad" and "evil" because "my morality...I feel...xyz".Vy
September 27, 2016
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The only response I can give to you Marfin is that my brain produces the emotins I feel from memories, and past experience. I know this will not be enough for you and others here as they expect deep religio/philosophical discourse of the kind I am always suspicious of. And when they have finished their long complex arguments, I am left saying, 'eh?' Evolution produced these emotions through natural selection. We are shocked by child rape and child abuse because it goes against all of our child rearing inheritance, and we rightly stigmatize this behaviour as it is not only harmful to the group structure, but could encourage similar harmful behaviour; no more no less. I am fine with that, you and many here are not; sorry!rvb8
September 27, 2016
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Missing the Point: A Play for Two Persons. Theist: given materialism, rationality cannot exist, because unthinking particles in motion cannot think. Atheist: Well, I hate to rain on this person’s slack jawed schoolboy analysis, but I do think. Theist: given materialism, ethics cannot exist, because uncaring particles in motion cannot love other uncaring particles in motion. Atheist: Well, I hate to rain on this person’s slack jawed schoolboy analysis, but I do love my family.Origenes
September 27, 2016
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'And other cultural marxist schemes.' I have no idea what this means, and I know the person who uses such phraeology also can not explain it. The closest I can come would 'persecution complex', or 'conspiracy theory'. Either way, as a way of descrbing something it causes my brain to ache. Back to abortion I see, that well never seems to stop producing.I would take these arguments more seriously if I knew that the posters here, who see this as the single greatest mass murder in our planets history, had all adopted unwanted children. If they have not, and don't intend to, then their argument amounts to; 'we want 800million more people on the planet, and all the associated problems that entails, but don't include me in their welfare, and don't use socialised answers including higher taxes on me to cover the costs.' This sounds to me like te ultimate in selfish disregard to the people you purportedly care so deeply about.rvb8
September 27, 2016
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rvb8-You have made a number of assertions based on what you feel and think , and used terms like harm, hold dear and ethics,but you provided no evidence whatsoever to support your position apart from I feel.So please provide the scientific evidence for the fact that " I feel or we feel so hence it must be right"Marfin
September 27, 2016
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BA, Of course, 2350+ years past, Plato warned our civilisation on the consequences of playing with this particular fire (even as he reflected on the collapse of Athenian democracy . . . this SHOULD be embedded in civics education, no prizes for guessing why it is generally notably absent):
Ath [in The Laws, Bk X 2,350+ ya]. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-
[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,
[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin") . . . ]
and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them [--> nihilistic will to power not the spirit of justice and lawfulness].
We have been warned, long since. And over the past generation, 800+ million unborn children slaughtered in the womb stand as mute testimony to our dark, blood-benumbed and endarkened age, pretending to be enlightened even as it continues to corrupt law, courts, parliaments and cabinets, education, media, institutions and more in the central wrong of our age; the lynch-pin wrong that needs to be broken and removed if there is hope to break the mad march of folly to ruin that is already in progress. We need to cry out for the gracious mercy of repentance, that we may wake up and turn back before it is fatally too late. KF PS: Manipulation through an enabling media through dirty spin and scapegoating strawman tactics and other cultural marxist schemes is of course a mater of might in spin making perceived right, truth etc in the teeth of actual reality and responsibilities.kairosfocus
September 26, 2016
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Don't be silly, of course Atheists love their families! They can't help it. As an intricate molecular agglomeration with a highly evolved genetic code that's been optimized for survival, they experience the illusion of warm feelings that control their behavior. This is fundamentally no different than how most other mammals, and some reptiles (alligators, for example) are genetically programmed. The result of this programming is an evolutionary adaption that enhances survival by protecting immature young---but only to a point. Let me explain. Just as mice, for example, sometimes eat their young when stressed, atheists also have no problems with abortion and even infanticide when the life and well-being of a reproducing mother is at risk. This is obviously how nature works. There are also circumstances when cannibalism of incompetent juveniles---those who could not survive on their own---is not only justified, but mandated by evolutionary genetics! Infants and toddlers, while hopefully surviving to carry on their genetic survival, also serve as a nutritional backup for reproducing adults and competent juveniles. Don't you see, it's all very obvious, practical, and efficient. "Right," "wrong," or "choice" is not an issue, nor is it even at question as I'm sure that rvb8 will readily agree. -QQuerius
September 26, 2016
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Hmmm, to Andrew and bb, I am an atheist and you say I have no 'reason' to love (which I do) family and friends. Well, I hate to rain on this (Andrew Ferguson) person's slack jawed schoolboy analysis, but I do love my family, friends, and the planet; try working that one out:) I'm sure you, and your fear of God reason, do too. Isn't it wonderful to be alive and love those around you, because it's just wonderful. Circular reasoning to be sure, but it's a hell of a lot better than yours, and Andrew's nasty Tertullian world view; No thanks!:) Keep it, and your fear!rvb8
September 26, 2016
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rvb8, You have no reason to base your ethics around your family, without being inconsistent with your worldview.
Fortunately, materialism is never translated into life as it’s lived. As colleagues and friends, husbands and mothers, wives and fathers, sons and daughters, materialists never put their money where their mouth is. Nobody thinks his daughter is just molecules in motion and nothing but; nobody thinks the Holocaust was evil, but only in a relative, provisional sense. A materialist who lived his life according to his professed convictions—understanding himself to have no moral agency at all, seeing his friends and enemies and family as genetically determined robots—wouldn’t just be a materialist: He’d be a psychopath.
-Andrew Ferguson, Ruminating on Thomas Nagel The Weekly Standard, The Heretic, Mar 25, 2013, Vol. 18, No. 27bb
September 26, 2016
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This is so silly as to be laughable. My atheistic ethics pivots around the concept of my home and family, friends, and fellow human beings. My ethics say quite clearly that if it harms my home (the planet) it harms me and those I hold dear, therefore avoid this. Also, the idea of choosing the time of my own demise is written in my will, and is known to my family. If I am in a state of dementia I have instructed the use of a large dose of morphine; this is legal in my country; thank God. Even if I am not demented, but merely in excruciating pain, and my mind is sound, I will (I hope) do the same. These atheistic ethics of 'empathy', and an awareness that the world is not merely 'you', is lost on a group of people (and they are the vast majority of Jews, Christians, Muslims)who are so utterly self absorbed, so utterly selfish, that all they can think of is, 'ME, ME, ME!' The sanctity of the individual fits into my ethics so well, that I say I have the freedom to choose the point of my last breath, I will not give that decision to anyone else, least of all to someone, or something, that is intangible.rvb8
September 26, 2016
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"Like I said, “materialist ethics” is an oxymoron and always covers “might makes right.” So true, I ask atheists just why do you "think" something is wrong, where does that thought or feeling come from? They will go on about common sense or the good of society, but I always corner them with the final actuality and that is that all atheist regimes have turned out to be "Might is Right" and it cannot be anything other in the end.jimmontg
September 26, 2016
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I remember that post well. It was the one that kicked off my involvement with this site.HeKS
September 26, 2016
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