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Materialists Descend Further into Incoherence

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This is the cover from New Scientists magazine for March 31, 2018:

The materialist editor who wrote the text for the cover is deeply confused about at last two things:

  1. He implies that we “know” that inequality is morally wrong in the same way we “know” the earth orbits the sun.  But that is true only if morality is objective and part of that objective morality is that inequality is wrong.  But by definition materialists cannot believe in objective morality, because they reject any transcendent moral code by which to judge moral claims.
  2. Under Darwinist principles inequality is the natural state in the struggle of all against all.  After all, in a world of “survival of the fittest,” the “fittest” are anything but equal.  Why should the editors suggest that inequality, which is inevitable in their worldview, is wrong?

As I have written before, the Christian idea of equality of all men before God is the foundation of the political idea of the equality of all men under the law.  Don’t take my word for it.  Atheist professor Yuval Noah Harari agrees.  In his international bestseller Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, Harari wrote:  “The idea of equality is inextricably intertwined with the idea of creation.  The Americans got the idea of equality from Christianity, which argues that every person has a divinely created soul, and that all souls are equal before God.”

This passage comes from a longer passage in which Harari argues that the ideas expressed in the Declaration are so much imaginary drivel.  He writes:

Both the Code of Hammurabi and the American Declaration of Independence claim to outline universal and eternal principles of justice, but according to the Americans all people are equal, whereas according to the Babylonians people are decidedly unequal. The Americans would, of course, say that they are right, and that Hammurabi is wrong. Hammurabi, naturally, would retort that he is right, and that the Americans are wrong.  In fact, they are both wrong.  Hammurabi and the American Founding Fathers alike imagined a reality governed by universal and immutable principles of justice, such as equality or hierarchy.  Yet the only place where such universal principles exist is in the fertile imagination of Sapiens, and in the myths they invent and tell one another. These principles have no objective validity.

It is easy for us to accept that the division of people into ‘superiors’ and ‘commoners’ is a figment of the imagination. Yet the idea that all humans are equal is also a myth.  In what sense do all humans equal one another?  Is there any objective reality, outside the human imagination, in which we are truly equal? . . . According to the science of biology, people were not ‘created’. They have evolved. And they certainly did not evolve to be ‘equal’.  The idea of equality is inextricably intertwined with the idea of creation.  The Americans got the idea of equality from Christianity, which argues that every person has a divinely created soul, and that all souls are equal before God.  However, if we do not believe in the Christian myths about God, creation and souls, what does it mean that all people are ‘equal’?  Evolution is based on difference, not on equality. Every person carries a somewhat different genetic code, and is exposed from birth to different environmental influences.  This leads to the development of different qualities that carry with them different chances of survival.  ‘Created equal’ should therefore be translated into ‘evolved differently’.

Just as people were never created, neither, according to the science of biology, is there a ‘Creator’ who ‘endows’ them with anything. There is only a blind evolutionary process, devoid of any purpose, leading to the birth of individuals. ‘Endowed by their creator’ should be translated simply into ‘born’.

Equally, there are no such things as rights in biology. There are only organs, abilities and characteristics.  Birds do not fly because they have a right to fly, but because they have wings. And it’s not true that these organs, abilities and characteristics are ‘unalienable’.  Many of them undergo constant mutations, and may well be completely lost over time.  The ostrich is a bird that lost its ability to fly. So ‘unalienable rights’ should be translated into ‘mutable characteristics’.

And what are the characteristics that evolved in humans? ‘Life’, certainly. But ‘liberty’? There is no such thing in biology. Just like equality, rights and limited liability companies, liberty is something that people invented and that exists only in their imagination. From a biological viewpoint, it is meaningless to say that humans in democratic societies are free, whereas humans in dictatorships are unfree.

Harari’s analysis is remarkably clear-eyed for a materialist atheist.  He admits that under materialism, human dignity does not exist; universal principles of justice and equality do not exist; human rights do not exist; liberty does not exist.  All of these things are social constructs resulting from entirely contingent physical processes.

Kudos to Harari for acknowledging what he sees when he peers into the abyss.  As for the editors at New Scientists, well, we have their measure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comments
Origenes, yes I agreemike1962
April 6, 2018
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Mike1962 @
So magnetism is at least explicable in reductionist terms of at least one level deeper: to the arrangement of electrons.
Thanks for the information Mike. My simple point still stands, as I think you would agree: the so-called "reductionist" and "de-mystifying" explanations, which Allan Keith referred to, are only skin-deep. We do not know what energy, matter and physical laws are. The "physical" world is as magical as it ever was, perhaps even more so.Origenes
April 6, 2018
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The EDIT timeout is pretty short these days. Anyway, from Wikipedia: The electromagnetic force usually exhibits electromagnetic fields such as electric fields, magnetic fields and light, and is one of the four fundamental interactions (commonly called forces) in nature. The other three fundamental interactions are the strong interaction, the weak interaction and gravitation. Perhaps I wasn't clear. When I say "electo-magnetism" I mean the electo-magnetic force which underlies the magnetic and electric fields and also photons.mike1962
April 5, 2018
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To continue, often people do refer to electric fields and magnetic fields as being electro-magnetic fields. They are very much related, and form what's called fundamental interactions. But electromagnetism proper is neither a magnetic field nor an electric field. At the heart of it is photons which can be thought of as a oscillating electric and magnetic fields, and yet it is neither, per se.mike1962
April 5, 2018
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Mike1962: Firstly, Allen Keith is right about “magnetism.” It is a phenomenon with a well understood reductionist explanation. Origenes: How far does that “well understood reductionist explanation” reach? To the arrangement of electrons. Electrons are currently thought to be elementary, that is, non-reducible according to the Standard Model. So magnetism is at least explicable in reductionist terms of at least one level deeper: to the arrangement of electrons. Electro-magnetism is not. It is fundamental. Wiki: Magnetic fields and electric fields are interrelated, and are both components of the electromagnetic force, one of the four fundamental forces of nature. A lot of things are interrelated. But electo-magnetism (despite its name) is neither magnetism (a field produced by electrons in a certain configuration) nor electricity (electrons in motion.) Electro-magnetism is more fundamental than either of them. Mike1962: I believe what Origenes was thinking of is electo-magnetism which is quite another matter. Origenes: Is it? As far as I understand the Standard Model, it is.mike1962
April 5, 2018
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Of related note:
Quantum Mechanics, Special Relativity, General Relativity and Christianity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKggH8jO0pk
bornagain77
April 5, 2018
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ET @ 73 "E=mc^2- according to Einstein means that matter and energy are different manifestations of the same thing" Yes, that's how I, as a layperson, always understood it. So the question now is: "are matter, energy and *consciousness* different manifestations of the same thing? (Discuss on three sides of graph paper and hand in by Friday!) CharlesCharles Birch
April 5, 2018
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I will pick a nit or two. Firstly, magnetism describes force, not energy. Closely related: energy is an integral of a displacement against a force, or a function of position within a force field. It doesn't harm Origenes' point; but it will draw winces from physicists. I'd also vote that Origene's reference to magnetism works just fine, as magnetism as observed pretty well directly reflects on some fundamental force we take axiomatically. It serves as a synecdoche for electro-magnetic; or electro-weak, even.LocalMinimum
April 5, 2018
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E=mc^2- according to Einstein means that matter and energy are different manifestations of the same thing. Matter cannot exist without energy. Matter is composed of subatomic particles tat have some type of energy. Some talk of photons being without mass but still having momentum. But photons come from something, so to me that is a stretch.ET
April 5, 2018
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Allan @ 66 That's an interesting question! I don't know the answer to it either! (Are there any physicists on the Forum who could help out?) Maybe one take on it is this: matter can be thought of as 'frozen' energy, and energy can be thought of as 'unfrozen' matter. So if there's matter there must by default be energy - even if this energy only exists 'in potentia'. And where there's energy there must by default be matter, even if it's 'in potentia'. Does that make any sort of sense? Another equally interesting question is: can either matter or energy exist in the absence of consciousness, and vice-versa? For example, here's a thought experiment. Imagine earth to be the only locus of life in the universe (and it might be, for all we know). Now remove all life from the planet - there is now nothing that has consciousness in the universe. What does the universe now consist of? Well, there can be no sensation of light or colour; no sounds, no smells, no sensations; no flavours. The universe would 'look' like nothing, because there is nothing to experience it. If the current QM experiments indicate what they appear to indicate, the whole universe would just be a roiling sea of mathematical probability distributions; an ocean of potential waiting for a consciousness to actualise it. I drive myself nuts with this sort of thing on a regular basis; when my brain really starts to hurt I lie back on the sofa with the latest Dan Brown! CharlesCharles Birch
April 5, 2018
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Every time scientists make a mathematical model of a physical phenomena, be it magnatism or whatever, they are certainly not using something that yields to a reductionist explanation:
An Interview with David Berlinski - Jonathan Witt Berlinski: There is no argument against religion that is not also an argument against mathematics. Mathematicians are capable of grasping a world of objects that lies beyond space and time…. Interviewer:… Come again(?) … Berlinski: No need to come again: I got to where I was going the first time. The number four, after all, did not come into existence at a particular time, and it is not going to go out of existence at another time. It is neither here nor there. Nonetheless we are in some sense able to grasp the number by a faculty of our minds. Mathematical intuition is utterly mysterious. So for that matter is the fact that mathematical objects such as a Lie Group or a differentiable manifold have the power to interact with elementary particles or accelerating forces. But these are precisely the claims that theologians have always made as well – that human beings are capable by an exercise of their devotional abilities to come to some understanding of the deity; and the deity, although beyond space and time, is capable of interacting with material objects. http://tofspot.blogspot.com/2013/10/found-upon-web-and-reprinted-here.html Mario Livio, or the Poverty of Atheist Philosophy: A Review of “Is God a Mathematician?” Excerpt: In short, Wigner committed a treason against science. He didn’t, in an Einsteinian fashion, just declare a personal faith in a God that had only marginal relevance to his scientific studies. He went farther than that: he implied that science was impossible and inexplicable without accepting a higher reality, transcending the mind of man and its capabilities for reasoning and experimentation. The short and ostensibly innocent article faced some really violent reactions; some objected to the conclusions in it, others to the premises, and still others refused to even deal with it, pretending it had never been written. But Wigner remained right about one thing: Despite the many attempts, no one could give a rational explanation for what Wigner described as the “uncanny ability of mathematics to describe and predict accurately the physical world.” http://americanvision.org/4333/mario-livio-or-the-poverty-of-atheist-philosophy-a-review-of-is-god-a-mathematician/
As to Maxwell and Faraday in particular:
MAXWELL AND FARADAY - with audio Excerpt: Maxwell set the theoretical foundations of electric field theory in 1873. He says at the outset of his treatise, “Before I began the study of electricity I resolved to read no mathematics on the subject until I had first read [Faraday].” That’s an innocent enough remark until you follow it through. You see, Faraday’s pioneering work had made little sense to mathematicians. So Maxwell, a great mathematician himself, systematically went back and climbed inside Faraday’s head. There he found a great garden of delights. Here’s what he said about the experience: I found that … Faraday’s methods … begin with the whole and arrive at the parts by analysis, while the ordinary mathematical methods were founded on the principle of beginning with the parts and building up the whole by synthesis. http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi905.htm
bornagain77
April 5, 2018
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Mike1962: Firstly, Allen Keith is right about “magnetism.” It is a phenomenon with a well understood reductionist explanation.
How far does that "well understood reductionist explanation" reach?
Wiki: Magnetic fields and electric fields are interrelated, and are both components of the electromagnetic force, one of the four fundamental forces of nature.
Mike1962:I believe what Origenes was thinking of is electo-magnetism which is quite another matter.
Is it?Origenes
April 5, 2018
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Seversky:
But materialism has been a lot more successful than any other approach at whittling down the list of things we can’t explain.
Examples please. You made this type of nonsensical claims before referring to medicine and you have never supported it.ET
April 5, 2018
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Sev then states:
No brain, no consciousness. That could be a clue that one is required for the other.
That is a (dogmatic) presupposition not a finding. Moreover, presupposing consciousness to be derivative from material leads to the catastrophic epistemological failure of science.
Determinism vs Free Will https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwPER4m2axI "In any philosophy of reality that is not ultimately self-defeating or internally contradictory, mind – unlabeled as anything else, matter or spiritual – must be primary. What is “matter” and what is “conceptual” and what is “spiritual” can only be organized from mind. Mind controls what is perceived, how it is perceived, and how those percepts are labeled and organized. Mind must be postulated as the unobserved observer, the uncaused cause simply to avoid a self-negating, self-conflicting worldview. It is the necessary postulate of all necessary postulates, because nothing else can come first. To say anything else comes first requires mind to consider and argue that case and then believe it to be true, demonstrating that without mind, you could not believe that mind is not primary in the first place." - William J. Murray “No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” Max Planck (1858–1947), the main founder of quantum theory, The Observer, London, January 25, 1931 “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334.
Seversky goes on to claim
As for Near Death Experiences, they appear to be common experiences in the minds of people approaching death, not after. You find verified instances of post-mortem consciousness and you might have a case. Otherwise, NDEs show nothing about the possibility of life after death.
More buff and bluster. Several NDEs are recorded of people who awoke in morgues.
near death experience in morgue - google search https://www.google.com/search?ei=PBrGWsaIKcG4tQWpza3QCw&q=near+death+experience+in+morgue&oq=near+death+experience+in+morgue&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.35i39k1.44823.44823.0.46899.1.1.0.0.0.0.131.131.0j1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.131....0.O6S4mwNNEBA
Moreover, people who have NDEs (or out of body experiences) often recall seeing things while they are out of their bodies, things that were later verified, things that could not have possibly be seen from the vicinity of where the body was. And thus this 'perception from a distance' directly refutes the materialistic contention that consciousness is merely a product of the material brain.
Kim Clark Finds the Tennis Shoe and Proves Near Death Experiences Are Real https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPXK2Ls-xzQ Michaela's Amazing NEAR death experience - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTcHWz6UMZ8 "A recent analysis of several hundred cases showed that 48% of near-death experiencers reported seeing their physical bodies from a different visual perspective. Many of them also reported witnessing events going on in the vicinity of their body, such as the attempts of medical personnel to resuscitate them (Kelly et al., 2007)." Kelly, E. W., Greyson, B., & Kelly, E. F. (2007). Unusual experiences near death and related phenomena. In E. F. Kelly, E. W. Kelly, A. Crabtree, A. Gauld, M. Grosso, & B. Greyson, Irreducible mind (pp. 367-421). Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield. Life after death? Largest-ever study provides evidence that 'out of body' and 'near-death' experiences may be real - October 7, 2014 Excerpt: Dr Sam Parnia, an assistant professor at the State University of New York and a former research fellow at the University of Southampton who led the research, said that he previously (held) that patients who described near-death experiences were only relating hallucinatory events. One man, however, gave a “very credible” account of what was going on while doctors and nurses tried to bring him back to life – and says that he felt he was observing his resuscitation from the corner of the room. Speaking to The Telegraph about the evidence provided by a 57-year-old social worker Southampton, Dr Parnia said: “We know the brain can’t function when the heart has stopped beating. “But in this case, conscious awareness appears to have continued for up to three minutes. “The man described everything that had happened in the room, but importantly, he heard two bleeps from a machine that makes a noise at three minute intervals. So we could time how long the experienced lasted for. “He seemed very credible and everything that he said had happened to him had actually happened.” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/life-after-death-largestever-study-provides-evidence-that-out-of-body-and-neardeath-experiences-may-actually-be-real-9780195.html
As well, blind people who have been blind from birth report seeing for the first time when they were out of their material bodies:
Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported vision during their Near Death Experiences (NDEs). 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. (of note: This 'anomaly' is also found for deaf people who can hear sound during their Near Death Experiences(NDEs).) http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Ring/Ring-Journal%20of%20Near-Death%20Studies_1997-16-101-147-1.pdf Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience (NDE) - Pim von Lommel - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKyQJDZuMHE
Seversky then states:
I’ve yet to see a clear, agreed definition of what is meant by “soul” so claiming that quantum effects in biology are evidence for it are just wishful thinking at this point.
Seversky, first off if materialism is true, then there is no 'you' to ever see anything in the first place, there merely is a neuronal illusion having the illusion of personhood, and who's perceptions of reality are illusory! (As already referenced in this thread) Moreover, the soul, throughout history, (regardless of your refusal to honestly acknowledge the clear definition), has been clearly defined as being that transcendent component of the human body that is capable of living beyond the death of our material bodies. In fact,
16. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that we are merely our material bodies with no transcendent component to our being, and that we die when our material bodies die. Theism predicted that we have minds/souls that are transcendent of our bodies that live past the death of our material bodies. Transcendent, and ‘conserved’, (cannot be created or destroyed), ‘non-local’, (beyond space-time matter-energy), quantum entanglement/information, which is not reducible to matter-energy space-time, is now found in our material bodies on a massive scale (in every DNA and protein molecule). Darwinian Materialism vs. Quantum Biology – video https://youtu.be/LHdD2Am1g5Y
Of supplemental note: In the following study, materialistic researchers who had a bias against Near Death Experiences being real, set out to prove that they were ‘false memories’ by setting up a clever questionnaire that could differentiate which memories a person had were real and which memories a person had were merely imaginary. They did not expect the "more real than real" results they got: to quote the headline
'Afterlife' feels 'even more real than real,' researcher says - Wed April 10, 2013 Excerpt: "If you use this questionnaire ... if the memory is real, it's richer, and if the memory is recent, it's richer," he said. The coma scientists weren't expecting what the tests revealed. "To our surprise, NDEs were much richer than any imagined event or any real event of these coma survivors," Laureys reported. The memories of these experiences beat all other memories, hands down, for their vivid sense of reality. "The difference was so vast," he said with a sense of astonishment. Even if the patient had the experience a long time ago, its memory was as rich "as though it was yesterday," Laureys said. http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/health/belgium-near-death-experiences/
bornagain77
April 5, 2018
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Allan Keith: For example, magnetism was once thought to be magical or supernatural. However, we now consider it to be a natural physical phenomenon. Origenes: Despite that move, magnetic energy remains as magical as ever. Today no one has a clue as to what magnetic energy is. Heck no one even knows what energy is. Allen Keith: Yet nobody is seriously suggesting that it is not the result of physics and matter. Firstly, Allen Keith is right about "magnetism." It is a phenomenon with a well understood reductionist explanation. I believe what Origenes was thinking of is electo-magnetism which is quite another matter. It has no empirically supported reductionist explanation and is considered one of the three foundational "forces of nature" along with the electo-weak and strong nuclear "forces" in the Standard Model of physics today. Electo-magnetism, which we also call "radio waves", "light", "photons", remains a fundamental force and has particularly non-common-sensical properties demonstrated by the double-slit, delayed-choice, and quantum eraser experiments, among others. Attempts at a reductionist explanation can be found in the various string theories, but to date, after several decades, there is no empirical reason to accept any of them. Is electro-magnetism genuinely a fundamental force or is their yet more fundamental forces upon which it is "built?" Nobody knows. And maybe nobody will ever know. There are practical limitations with regards to empirically testing string theories. But then, if we could, we would we be left at the same sort of spot we are now. We would be asking, what "are" the strings? Are they the most fundamental "forces?" And so on. Allen Keith demonstrates his faith in science to be able to endlessly uncover what might underlie any particularly phenomenon. But that's a mere induction. A promissory note based on "dog logic", if you will. There's no rational reason to accept it as true or false. In the end, we all have our faith in something to one degree or another.mike1962
April 5, 2018
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Charles,
Just as matter and energy were shown by Einstein to be interchangeable, maybe accumulating evidence will show that both matter and energy are simply ways in which consciousness can manifest itself.
I will preface my comment by saying that I am not a physicist, so I may be completely wrong. It is true that matter and energy are interchangeable, but can one exist without the other? To clarify, if the entire universe were devoid of matter, would any energy exist. Or, if there were no energy, would matter exist? I honestly don't know the answer.Allan Keith
April 5, 2018
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Seversky then states:
BA77: That is putting it mildly, materialists can’t even explain where a single neuron came from, much less consciousness. Sev: There’s a lot of things we still can’t explain. But materialism has been a lot more successful than any other approach at whittling down the list of things we can’t explain. As for the mind-boggling complexity of the human brain and the staggering numbers of synapses and potential circuits in it, perhaps that might be sufficient to account for the emergence of consciousness. There has to be a reason for maintaining such a very expensive organ.
As to this claim in particular:
There’s a lot of things we still can’t explain. But materialism has been a lot more successful than any other approach at whittling down the list of things we can’t explain.
That claim is just plain false. In fact, that claim, since he shamelessly invokes 'materialism of the gaps', that claim turns the entire "God of the gaps" fallacy on its head. First off, modern science was born out of Christian Theism.
The truth about science and religion By Terry Scambray - August 14, 2014 Excerpt: In 1925 the renowned philosopher and mathematician, Alfred North Whitehead speaking to scholars at Harvard said that science originated in Christian Europe in the 13th century. Whitehead pointed out that science arose from “the medieval insistence on the rationality of God, conceived as with the personal energy of Jehovah and with the rationality of a Greek philosopher”, from which it follows that human minds created in that image are capable of understanding nature. The audience, assuming that science and Christianity are enemies, was astonished. http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2014/08/the_truth_about_science_and_religion.html The Threat to the Scientific Method that Explains the Spate of Fraudulent Science Publications - Calvin Beisner | Jul 23, 2014 Excerpt: It is precisely because modern science has abandoned its foundations in the Biblical worldview (which holds, among other things, that a personal, rational God designed a rational universe to be understood and controlled by rational persons made in His image) and the Biblical ethic (which holds, among other things, that we are obligated to tell the truth even when it inconveniences us) that science is collapsing. As such diverse historians and philosophers of science as Alfred North Whitehead, Pierre Duhem, Loren Eiseley, Rodney Stark, and many others have observed,, science—not an occasional flash of insight here and there, but a systematic, programmatic, ongoing way of studying and controlling the world—arose only once in history, and only in one place: medieval Europe, once known as “Christendom,” where that Biblical worldview reigned supreme. That is no accident. Science could not have arisen without that worldview. http://townhall.com/columnists/calvinbeisner/2014/07/23/the-threat-to-the-scientific-method-that-explains-the-spate-of-fraudulent-science-publications-n1865201/page/full Several other resources backing up this claim are available, such as Thomas Woods, Stanley Jaki, David Linberg, Edward Grant, J.L. Heilbron, and Christopher Dawson. Christians – Not the Enlightenment – Invented Modern Science – Chuck Colson – Oct. 2016 Excerpt: Rodney Stark's,,, book, "For the Glory of God,,,, In Stark's words, "Christian theology was necessary for the rise of science." Science only happened in areas whose worldview was shaped by Christianity, that is, Europe. Many civilizations had alchemy; only Europe developed chemistry. Likewise, astrology was practiced everywhere, but only in Europe did it become astronomy. That's because Christianity depicted God as a "rational, responsive, dependable, and omnipotent being" who created a universe with a "rational, lawful, stable" structure. These beliefs uniquely led to "faith in the possibility of science." So why the Columbus myth? Because, as Stark writes, "the claim of an inevitable and bitter warfare between religion and science has, for more than three centuries, been the primary polemical device used in the atheist attack of faith." Opponents of Christianity have used bogus accounts like the ones I've mentioned to not only discredit Christianity, but also position themselves as "liberators" of the human mind and spirit. Well, it's up to us to set the record straight, and Stark's book is a great place to start. And I think it's time to tell our neighbors that what everyone thinks they know about Christianity and science is just plain wrong. http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/chuck-colson/weve-been-lied-christians-not-enlightenment-invented-modern-science
Moreover science has only progressed is so far as it has adopted principles of Intelligent Design. That is to say, science has only progressed when people, i.e. intelligent agents, have made more and more accurate models of the universe, and have Intelligently Designed better and better scientific instruments so as to test those models to greater and greater levels of accuracy. Materialism had nothing to do with either the forming of the models or the developing of the scientific instruments. And let us be VERY clear to the fact that ALL of science, every discipline within science, is dependent on basic Theistic presuppositions about the rational intelligibility of the universe and the ability of our mind to comprehend that rational intelligibility. Modern science was born, and continues to be dependent on, those basic Theistic presuppositions. Einstein himself rebuked 'professional atheists' on this matter:
You find it strange that I consider the comprehensibility of the world (to the extent that we are authorized to speak of such a comprehensibility) as a miracle or as an eternal mystery. Well, a priori one should expect a chaotic world which cannot be grasped by the mind in any way. One could (yes one should) expect the world to be subjected to law only to the extent that we order it through our intelligence. Ordering of this kind would be like the alphabetical ordering of the words of a language. By contrast, the kind of order created by Newton’s theory of gravitation, for instance, is wholly different. Even if the axioms of the theory are proposed by man, the success of such a project presupposes a high degree of ordering of the objective world, and this could not be expected a priori. That is the “miracle” which is being constantly reinforced as our knowledge expands. There lies the weakness of positivists and professional atheists who are elated because they feel that they have not only successfully rid the world of gods but “bared the miracles”. - Einstein http://inters.org/Einstein-Letter-Solovine
It is also interesting to note, that there is no accurate mathematical model of Darwinian evolution to experimentally test against.
Top Ten Questions and Objections to ‘Introduction to Evolutionary Informatics’ – Robert J. Marks II – June 12, 2017 Excerpt: “There exists no model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. Hard sciences are built on foundations of mathematics or definitive simulations. Examples include electromagnetics, Newtonian mechanics, geophysics, relativity, thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, optics, and many areas in biology. Those hoping to establish Darwinian evolution as a hard science with a model have either failed or inadvertently cheated. These models contain guidance mechanisms to land the airplane squarely on the target runway despite stochastic wind gusts. Not only can the guiding assistance be specifically identified in each proposed evolution model, its contribution to the success can be measured, in bits, as active information.,,,”,,, “there exists no model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. According to our current understanding, there never will be.,,,” https://evolutionnews.org/2017/06/top-ten-questions-and-objections-to-introduction-to-evolutionary-informatics/
In fact, in so far as Darwinian and/or materialistic presuppositions have influenced scientific research, particularly biology, those materialistic presuppositions have only served to hamper science rather than foster discover:
"There are five standard tests for a scientific hypothesis. Has anyone observed the phenomenon -- in this case, Evolution -- as it occurred and recorded it? Could other scientists replicate it? Could any of them come up with a set of facts that, if true, would contradict the theory (Karl Popper's “falsifiability” tests)? Could scientists make predictions based on it? Did it illuminate hitherto unknown or baffling areas of science? In the case of Evolution... well... no... no... no... no... and no." - Tom Wolfe – The Kingdom of Speech – page 17 Darwinian Evolution Fails the Five Standard Tests of a Scientific Hypothesis - video https://youtu.be/L7f_fyoPybw Darwinian evolution is a pseudoscience (Popper and Lakatos) - March 2018 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/coursera-vid-by-darwinism-is-wrong-prof-banned-from-youtube/#comment-655046
As to Seversky's claim that materialism has been "whittling down the list" of things we can't explain, that claim is, again, just plain false. Although Theists are often accused of making ‘God of the Gaps’ style arguments, the fact of the matter is that, as science has progressed, it is the Atheist himself who has had to retreat further and further into ‘Materialism/Naturalism of Gaps’ style arguments. i.e. into “Science will figure a materialistic answer out to that mystery someday” style argument. To clearly illustrate the ‘materialism of the gaps’ style argument that the materialistic/atheistic philosophy makes, the materialistic and Theistic philosophy make, and have made, several contradictory predictions about what type of scientific evidence we will find. These contradictory predictions, and the evidence we have found by modern science, can be tested against one another to see if either materialism or Theism is true.
Theism compared to Naturalism - Major predictions of each Philosophy - with references https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vHkCYvFiWiZfMlXHKJwwMJ7SJ0tlqWfH83dJ2OgfP78/edit 1. Naturalism/Materialism predicted space-time energy-matter always existed. Theism predicted space-time energy-matter were created. Big Bang cosmology now strongly indicates that time-space energy-matter had a sudden creation event approximately 14 billion years ago. 2. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that the universe is a self sustaining system that is not dependent on anything else for its continued existence. Theism predicted that God upholds this universe in its continued existence. Breakthroughs in quantum mechanics reveal that this universe is dependent on a ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, cause for its continued existence. 3. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that consciousness is an ‘emergent property’ of material reality and thus should have no particularly special position within material reality. Theism predicts consciousness precedes material reality and therefore, on that presupposition, consciousness should have a ‘special’ position within material reality. Quantum Mechanics reveals that consciousness has a special, even a central, position within material reality. - 4. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the rate at which time passed was constant everywhere in the universe. Theism predicted God is eternal and is outside of time. – Special Relativity has shown that time, as we understand it, is relative and comes to a complete stop at the speed of light. (Psalm 90:4 – 2 Timothy 1:9) - 5. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the universe did not have life in mind and that life was ultimately an accident of time and chance. Theism predicted this universe was purposely created by God with man in mind. Scientists find the universe is exquisitely fine-tuned for carbon-based life to exist in this universe. Moreover it is found, when scrutinizing the details of physics and chemistry, that not only is the universe fine-tuned for carbon based life, but is specifically fine-tuned for life like human life (R. Collins, M. Denton).- 6. Naturalism/Materialism predicted complex life in this universe should be fairly common. Theism predicted the earth is extremely unique in this universe. Statistical analysis of the hundreds of required parameters which enable complex organic life to be possible on earth gives strong indication the earth is extremely unique in this universe (G. Gonzalez; Hugh Ross). - 7. Naturalism/Materialism predicted it took a very long time for life to develop on earth. Theism predicted life to appear abruptly on earth after water appeared on earth (Genesis 1:10-11). Geochemical evidence from the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth indicates that complex photosynthetic life has existed on earth as long as water has been on the face of earth. - 8. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the first life to be relatively simple. Theism predicted that God is the source for all life on earth. The simplest life ever found on Earth is far more complex than any machine man has made through concerted effort. (Michael Denton PhD) - 9. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the gradual unfolding of life would (someday) be self-evident in the fossil record. Theism predicted complex and diverse animal life to appear abruptly in the seas in God’s fifth day of creation. The Cambrian Explosion shows a sudden appearance of many different and completely unique fossils within a very short “geologic resolution time” in the Cambrian seas. - 10. Naturalism/Materialism predicted there should be numerous transitional fossils found in the fossil record, Theism predicted sudden appearance and rapid diversity within different kinds found in the fossil record. Fossils are consistently characterized by sudden appearance of a group/kind in the fossil record(disparity), then rapid diversity within that group/kind, and then long term stability and even deterioration of variety within the overall group/kind, and within the specific species of the kind, over long periods of time. Of the few dozen or so fossils claimed as transitional, not one is uncontested as a true example of transition between major animal forms out of millions of collected fossils. - 11. Naturalism/Materialism predicted animal speciation should happen on a somewhat constant basis on earth. Theism predicted man was the last species created on earth – Man (our genus ‘modern homo’ as distinct from the highly controversial ‘early homo’) is the last generally accepted major fossil form to have suddenly appeared in the fossil record. (Tattersall; Luskin)– 12. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that the separation of human intelligence from animal intelligence ‘is one of degree and not of kind’ (C. Darwin). Theism predicted that we are made in the ‘image of God’- Despite an ‘explosion of research’ in this area over the last four decades, human beings alone are found to ‘mentally dissect the world into a multitude of discrete symbols, and combine and recombine those symbols in their minds to produce hypotheses of alternative possibilities.’ (Tattersall; Schwartz). Moreover, both biological life and the universe itself are found to be ‘information theoretic’ in their foundational basis. 13. Naturalism/Materialism predicted much of the DNA code was junk. Theism predicted we are fearfully and wonderfully made – ENCODE research into the DNA has revealed a “biological jungle deeper, denser, and more difficult to penetrate than anyone imagined.”. - 14. Naturalism/Materialism predicted a extremely beneficial and flexible mutation rate for DNA which was ultimately responsible for all the diversity and complexity of life we see on earth. Theism predicted only God created life on earth – The mutation rate to DNA is overwhelmingly detrimental. Detrimental to such a point that it is seriously questioned whether there are any truly beneficial, information building, mutations whatsoever. (M. Behe; JC Sanford) - 15. Naturalism/Materialism predicted morality is subjective and illusory. Theism predicted morality is objective and real. Morality is found to be deeply embedded in the genetic responses of humans. As well, morality is found to be deeply embedded in the structure of the universe. Embedded to the point of eliciting physiological responses in humans before humans become aware of the morally troubling situation and even prior to the event even happening. 16. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that we are merely our material bodies with no transcendent component to our being, and that we die when our material bodies die. Theism predicted that we have minds/souls that are transcendent of our bodies that live past the death of our material bodies. Transcendent, and ‘conserved’, (cannot be created or destroyed), ‘non-local’, (beyond space-time matter-energy), quantum entanglement/information, which is not reducible to matter-energy space-time, is now found in our material bodies on a massive scale (in every DNA and protein molecule).
As you can see when we remove the artificial imposition of the materialistic philosophy (methodological naturalism), from the scientific method, and look carefully at the predictions of both the materialistic philosophy and the Theistic philosophy, side by side, we find the scientific method is very good at pointing us in the direction of Theism as the true explanation. - In fact modern science is even very good at pointing us to Christianity as the solution to the much sought after 'theory of everything'
Copernican Principle, Agent Causality, and Jesus Christ as the “Theory of Everything” - 2018 video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NziDraiPiOw
That Christianity should provide an empirically backed solution to the much sought out “Theory of Everything”, i.e. a primary reason for why the universe exists, should not really be all that surprising since,
1. Modern science was born out of the Christian worldview. 2. The belief that there should even be a unification between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, (i.e. a mathematical theory of everything), does not follow from the math, but is a belief that is born out of Theistic presuppositions (K. Godel, G Chaitin, S. Fuller). 3. The denial of Agent Causality behind the laws of physics, and in our own personal lives, leads to the catastrophic epistemological failure of science. 4. Christianity ‘predicts’ that “in him all things were created” Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
bornagain77
April 5, 2018
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Allan @ 58 Thanks for the response. As I see it, experimental data on QM is rapidly moving the theory towards some sort of turning point. It appears possible that the 'weirdness' of QM might ultimately be explained as a material process, or - equally possible - that further experimentation will argue that (as R C Henry has maintained) there is no 'material stuff' at all, and that reality is 'entirely mental'. Just as matter and energy were shown by Einstein to be interchangeable, maybe accumulating evidence will show that both matter and energy are simply ways in which consciousness can manifest itself. It's rather like the old geocentric theory of the cosmos. It was 'obvious' for millennia that the sun and other celestial bodies revolved around the earth. Everyone could see that obvious 'truth' for themselves. Except there were a few glitches that didn't make sense. Then Copernicus proposed a heliocentric theory that took care of the glitches. But it was so counterintuitive and outlandish that few took it seriously, and with the ingenious application of epicycles, geocentrism could be maintained. For a while, BOTH theories were valid ways of interpreting the data, but as further evidence became available (Galileo and Kepler), humanity had to accept the unthinkable: the self-evident, long-maintained truth was completely wrong. QM seems to be at this crossroads today. My understanding is that the most recent evidence is moving the theory steady AWAY from a materialist interpretation. A very good video on this, which chronologically summarises the evidence, is to be found here. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VqULEE7eY8M Well worth a look if you've not watched it before. CharlesCharles Birch
April 5, 2018
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//follow up #61 //
Allan Keith: Yet nobody is seriously suggesting that it is not the result of physics and matter.
Needless to point out, I hope, that no one knows what matter is. Moreover, as I have argued elsewhere, no one knows what the fundamental laws of physics consist of, by what mechanism they operate and/or where they come from.Origenes
April 5, 2018
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Seversky, who is without a doubt an unashamed died in the wool Atheistic Materialist, states:
Quantum mechanics describes how physical reality behaves at a sub-atomic level. To that extent it is a materialistic theory.
Simply claiming that quantum theory is a materialistic theory, without one reference, quote, or citation, will not suffice in the least. His baseless claim reminds me of someone claiming to be Napoleon. The behavior of physical reality at the sub-atomic level, and even at the macro-level in many cases, is certainly not "materialistic" in its characteristics. In fact, its spooky 'non-materialistic', beyond space and time, behavior is exactly what makes Quantum Mechanics so counter-intuitive for so many people.
…the “paradox” is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality “ought to be.” Richard Feynman, in The Feynman Lectures on Physics, vol III, p. 18-9 (1965)
Here are a few references that falsify materialism from the quantum mechanics perspective:
"If you go back and look at the premises which underlie materialism, They are all presumptions that were made back in the 17th and 18th century. Those (presumptions) are: reality, locality, causality, continuity, and determinism. All of those concepts were assumed to be self evident. And all of them have been disproved by quantum theory. The last one to fall was locality. (John Bell's theory of non-locality disproved locality, which has now been proven I think 11 times in 11 different experiments throughout the world.),,, Anyone who says, "Well, I want to believe materialism and I don't want to believe quantum physics." Okay then, get rid of your cell phone, along with anything you have with a transistor in it. Get rid of your MRIs, get rid of all those things. Because quantum electro-dynamics is the theory which allows those things. It is the most proven theory in all of science." Dr. Alan Hugenot - Hugenot holds a doctorate of science in mechanical engineering, and has had a successful career in marine engineering, serving on committees that write the ship-building standards for the United States. He studied physics and mechanical engineering at the Oregon Institute of Technology. quote taken from 16:35 minute mark of following interview Is near-death experience research scientifically respectable? - May 26, 2015 http://www.skeptiko.com/276-alan-hugenot-nde-research/ “I think that modern physics has definitely decided in favor of Plato. In fact the smallest units of matter are not physical objects in the ordinary sense; they are forms, ideas which can be expressed unambiguously only in mathematical language.” Werner Heisenberg - As quoted in The New York Times Book Review (March 8, 1992). - "Uncertainty," David C. Cassidy's biography of Werner Heisenberg "Information is known to be transcendent of normative physicality because it isn't bound by space-time limitations, and it changes the properties of a system under analysis just by being present in the observation method (as per delayed-choice & quantum eraser experiments). We know that this information is directly tied to observers. Quantum systems compute virtually infinite potential outcomes, but they do not collapse into physicality until observed (and how they are observed), and it has been demonstrated by experiment that this collapse into what we call physical reality is not bound by space or time; it can retroactively alter historical properties (quantum eraser). These scientific experiments unequivocally disprove materialism as any more valid than, say, Classical Physics; it's okay as a useful tool in many applications, but as a philosophical worldview, it's simply false; as false as any superstition based upon limited capacity to investigate the nature of reality. While things may apparently operate in a cause and effect, material sequence manner for the most part, science has revealed that without the observer, there simply is no such thing as apparent local realism - there is only nearly infinite information potential that has yet to coalesce into any particular arrangement. IOW, classical cause-and-effect materialism that claims mind to be generated by matter is proven to be a myth just like Apollo pulling the sun through the sky. Science has essentially proven that there must have been a sentient first cause (as observer), or must be a sentient sufficient cause (as observer or observers) in a non-physical, superluminal and non-temporal state in order for what we call the "reality" of cause-and-effect physicality to exist. Free will, soul, mind, god, whatever you want to call it as creator of the physical universe has been demonstrated by experiment to necessarily exist, and exist in a non-material, non-local state, or else there wouldn't be a universe, only information and potential. The question is: when will materialist atheists simply admit they are wrong, when their own preferred methodology - science - has disproven their worldview as much as it has disproven other myths and superstitions that were based on a lack of information?" http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?74571-Quantum-Physics-the-Double-Slit-Experiment-and-the-Inseperability-of-Matter-and-Consciousness.&s=e9d36ccb5bc44fd5a067ab2227efd403&p=996164&viewfull=1#post996164 Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5pq7W5yRM&feature=c4-overview&list=UU5qDet6sa6rODi7t6wfpg8g The Incompatibility of Physicalism with Physics: A Conversation with Dr. Bruce Gordon - video - 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk-UO81HmO4 Divine Action and the World of Science: What Cosmology and Quantum Physics Teach Us about the Role of Providence in Nature - Bruce L. Gordon - 2017 Excerpt page 295: In light of this realization, the rather startling picture that begins to seem plausible is that preserving and explaining the objective structure of appearances in light of quantum theory requires reviving a type of phenomenalism in which our perception of the physical universe is constituted by sense-data conforming to certain structural constraints, but in which there is no substantial material reality causing these sensory perceptions. This leaves us with an ontology of minds (as immaterial substances) experiencing and generating mental events and processes that, when sensory in nature, have a formal character limned by the fundamental symmetries and structures revealed in “physical” theory. That these structured sensory perceptions are not mostly of our own individual or collective human making points to the falsity of any solipsistic or social constructivist conclusion, but it also implies the need for a transcendent source and ground of our experience. As Robert Adams points out, mere formal structure is ontologically incomplete: [A] system of spatiotemporal relationships constituted by sizes, shapes, positions, and changes thereof, is too incomplete, too hollow, as it were, to constitute an ultimately real thing or substance. It is a framework that, by its very nature, needs to be filled in by something less purely formal. It can only be a structure of something of some not merely structural sort. Formally, rich as such a structure may be, it lacks too much of the reality of material thinghood. By itself, it participates in the incompleteness of abstractions. . . . [T]he reality of a substance must include something intrinsic and qualitativeover and above any formal or structural features it may possess.117 When we consider the fact that the structure of reality in fundamental physical theory is merely phenomenological and that this structure itself is hollow and non-qualitative, whereas our experience is not, the metaphysical objectivity and epistemic intersubjectivity of the enstructured qualitative reality of our experience can be seen to be best explained by an occasionalist idealism of the sort advocated by George Berkeley (1685-1753) or Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758). In the metaphysical context of this kind of theistic immaterialism, the vera causa that brings coherent closure to the phenomenological reality we inhabit is always and only agent causation. The necessity of causal sufficiency is met by divine action, for as Plantinga emphasizes: [T]he connection between God’s willing that there be light and there being light is necessary in the broadly logical sense: it is necessary in that sense that if God wills that p, p occurs. Insofar as we have a grasp of necessity (and we do have a grasp of necessity), we also have a grasp of causality when it is divine causality that is at issue. I take it this is a point in favor of occasionalism, and in fact it constitutes a very powerful advantage of occasionalism. 118 http://jbtsonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/JBTS-2.2-Article-7.compressed.pdf Quantum correlations do not imply instant causation - August 12, 2016 Excerpt: A research team led by a Heriot-Watt scientist has shown that the universe is even weirder than had previously been thought. In 2015 the universe was officially proven to be weird. After many decades of research, a series of experiments showed that distant, entangled objects can seemingly interact with each other through what Albert Einstein famously dismissed as "Spooky action at a distance". A new experiment by an international team led by Heriot-Watt's Dr Alessandro Fedrizzi has now found that the universe is even weirder than that: entangled objects do not cause each other to behave the way they do. (i.e. refutation of pilot waves and/or hidden variables) http://phys.org/news/2016-08-quantum-imply-instant-causation.html Experiment confirms quantum theory weirdness - May 27, 2015 Excerpt: The bizarre nature of reality as laid out by quantum theory has survived another test, with scientists performing a famous experiment and proving that reality does not exist until it is measured. Physicists at The Australian National University (ANU) have conducted John Wheeler's delayed-choice thought experiment, which involves a moving object that is given the choice to act like a particle or a wave. Wheeler's experiment then asks - at which point does the object decide? Common sense says the object is either wave-like or particle-like, independent of how we measure it. But quantum physics predicts that whether you observe wave like behavior (interference) or particle behavior (no interference) depends only on how it is actually measured at the end of its journey. This is exactly what the ANU team found. "It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it," said Associate Professor Andrew Truscott from the ANU Research School of Physics and Engineering. Despite the apparent weirdness, the results confirm the validity of quantum theory, which,, has enabled the development of many technologies such as LEDs, lasers and computer chips. The ANU team not only succeeded in building the experiment, which seemed nearly impossible when it was proposed in 1978, but reversed Wheeler's original concept of light beams being bounced by mirrors, and instead used atoms scattered by laser light. "Quantum physics' predictions about interference seem odd enough when applied to light, which seems more like a wave, but to have done the experiment with atoms, which are complicated things that have mass and interact with electric fields and so on, adds to the weirdness," said Roman Khakimov, PhD student at the Research School of Physics and Engineering. http://phys.org/news/2015-05-quantum-theory-weirdness.html
Seversky then asks:
As for information, perhaps you can find quotes where Vedral and Zeilinger define what they mean by “information”
Zeilinger in particular, (the experimentalist), is very specific in what he means by information and has made some fairly startling breakthoughs in quantum mechanics (quantum teleportation and long distance entanglement, Leggett's inequalities, etc..) by regarding information as fundamental to reality. Here are two references:
Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe? Excerpt: “In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: "In the beginning was the Word." Anton Zeilinger - a leading expert in quantum mechanics http://www.metanexus.net/archive/ultimate_reality/zeilinger.pdf Zeilinger's principle Zeilinger's principle states that any elementary system carries just one bit of information. This principle was put forward by Austrian physicist Anton Zeilinger in 1999 and subsequently developed by him to derive several aspects of quantum mechanics. Some have reasoned that this principle, in certain ways, links thermodynamics with information theory. [1] http://www.eoht.info/page/Zeilinger%27s+principle
bornagain77
April 5, 2018
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Alla,
Yet nobody is seriously suggesting that it is not the result of physics and matter.
Quite the opposite; "energy comes from matter" (and matter comes from energy) is not a serious attempt at explaining things.Origenes
April 5, 2018
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Origene,
Despite that move, magnetic energy remains as magical as ever. Today no one has a clue as to what magnetic energy is. Heck no one even knows what energy is.
Yet nobody is seriously suggesting that it is not the result of physics and matter.Allan Keith
April 5, 2018
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Allan Keith: For example, magnetism was once thought to be magical or supernatural. However, we now consider it to be a natural physical phenomenon.
Despite that move, magnetic energy remains as magical as ever. Today no one has a clue as to what magnetic energy is. Heck no one even knows what energy is.
Richard Feynman: There is a fact, or if you wish, a law governing all natural phenomena that are known to date. There is no known exception to this law – it is exact so far as we know. The law is called the conservation of energy. It states that there is a certain quantity, which we call “energy,” that does not change in the manifold changes that nature undergoes. That is a most abstract idea, because it is a mathematical principle; it says there is a numerical quantity which does not change when something happens . . . it is a strange fact that when we calculate some number and when we finish watching nature go through her tricks and calculate the number again, it is the same. It is important to realize that in physics today, we have no knowledge of what energy “is.” We do not have a picture that energy comes in little blobs of a definite amount. It is not that way. It . . . does not tell us the mechanism or the reason for the various formulas.
Origenes
April 5, 2018
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Charles,
I don’t know what to make of this and would be grateful for clarification. Is there a material reality underlying QM, or does all material ‘stuff’ dissolve into waves of probability at that level?
I am by no means an expert in QM either. By something being material/physical, I mean that there is a direct causal relationship with physical (solid) matter and that it can be detected/measured, either directly or indirectly. For example, magnetism was once thought to be magical or supernatural. However, we now consider it to be a natural physical phenomenon.Allan Keith
April 5, 2018
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Charles Birch: Very good thoughts. Thank you! :)gpuccio
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Allan Keith (and Seversky): "Seversky@49, I also wonder at the idea that some think that quantum mechanics is non-material. It is just material science at the sub-atomic level. The fact that it is not fully understood (and ‘spooky’) does not make it non-material." The problem is, again, with the use of ambiguous words. "Material" and "physical" have no precise meaning. Let's just say that there is a reality out there, and that we understand some of it. Many other things we don't understand (for example, consciousness). Quantum mechanics is, at present, a very good interface between what we understand and what we don't understand.gpuccio
April 5, 2018
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Seversky: "No brain, no consciousness. That could be a clue that one is required for the other. As for Near Death Experiences, they appear to be common experiences in the minds of people approaching death, not after. You find verified instances of post-mortem consciousness and you might have a case. Otherwise, NDEs show nothing about the possibility of life after death." Well, it seems that you have some information about the absence of consciousness after death. References, please? Let's say that NDEs are a very reliable set of observable experience at the transition between life and death: you know, most of the people who have NDEs would really die, if they were not reanimated. That makes them very interesting, and pertinent to the discussion.gpuccio
April 5, 2018
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kurx78: "In defense of Bob I’m not really sure if he’s a hardcore a/mat but besides that his responses are interesting, thoughtful and with a scientifical basis." Thank you for saying that. I absolutely agree. I think that it is our duty to acknowledge the good qualities expressed by interlocutors on the other side. And to see the stimulating aspects in their arguments.gpuccio
April 5, 2018
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bornagain77: "Actually the ‘interface’ of the soul with the body is far more pervasive than just the brain. The ‘quantum interface’ is found in every biological molecule of the human body." I absolutely agree. I was just focusing on the brain, because it certainly has some very specific function in that interface.gpuccio
April 5, 2018
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Allan Keith @ 50 I find QM fascinating but as a non-scientist and non-philosopher (I'm just a curious layman) I find some opposing statements about QM very confusing. From my bumbling attempts to understand the basics, I had formed the notion that physicists chased the ultrastructure of matter down to subatomic particles - whereupon all the hard particulate 'stuff' disappeared, and they were left with nothing more than an ocean of mathematical probability distributions (which, whatever else they are, are not material 'stuff'). One quotation that lodges in my mind is that of astrophysicist Richard C. Henry (whose intriguing essay 'The Mental Universe' is often referenced by ba77). He stated 'I ceased to be a materialist, the moment I realised there was no material'. OTOH other commenters, such as yourself, claim that QM describes a subatomic but still material reality. I don't know what to make of this and would be grateful for clarification. Is there a material reality underlying QM, or does all material 'stuff' dissolve into waves of probability at that level?Charles Birch
April 5, 2018
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